Loremen Podcast - S5 Ep10: Loremen S5 Ep10 - The Enigma of the Panelled Room

Episode Date: November 23, 2023

Alasdair takes James to Canterbury, in Kent*, a city positively brimming with ghosts. The boys skip from the Roman streets to a tea house, which boasts its own unique ghost room. But! What begins as a grisly interior design show ends up as a hard hitting exposé. Folklore or FAKElore? You decide.   We also come up with some Chaucer-themed business ideas. If you open a Canterbury grocers that sells only parsnips called "The Parsonips Tale" you have to pay us royalties. There's a lot to get your teeth into here. And a lot of panels to hide your teeth behind, if that's what you're into. Incidentally**, why not pop into Tiny Tim's Tea Rooms and book yourself on a Canterbury a ghost tour? * Actual Kent, this time. ** Tooth pun!

Welcome to Lawmen, a podcast about local legends and obscure curiosities from days of yore. With me, Alistair Beckett-King. And me, James Shakeshaft. And James Shakeshaft. Hello. Hello. And James, I've got a tale for you today that hails from the Kentish city of Canterbury. Have you double-checked that that's in Kent?

Just, I've been there before. It is in Kent. We will not make that mistake twice. I probably will. What's the tale? Well, James, I have got... I don't want to overstate it, but I think thrill ride is the phrase I would use.

I've got a thrill ride for you that I like to call the enigma of the paneled room. I am intrigued. Hello, is that James Shakespeare? Yes, speaking. Alistair Beckett-King here. Good to hear from you. Yeah, good to hear from you too. Yes, speaking. Alistair Beckett-King here. Good to hear from you. Yeah, good to hear from you too. James.

Yeah. James, James, James. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I have got a roller coaster of a tale for you today. Excellent. You must be this tall to ride this tale. Wow. And you are.

Yeah, fortunately. Easily exceed the height limit for the tale. Have I got the correct armband? Yes, you do. Welcome aboard. Thank goodness. I'm going to just lower that thing down onto you. It doesn got the correct armband? Yes, you do. Welcome aboard. Thank goodness. I'm going to just lower that thing down on two. It doesn't...

No, it seems a little bit wobbly, but don't worry about that. Don't wobble it too hard. James, you must have been at the age of about six tall enough to go on all those rides, surely. Yeah, I think so. Must have been the envy of the class. If I'd have had any friends back then, I'm sure. Well, now we know why you were so unpopular. Oh, because of the jealousy.

They envied your ability to just walk up to the guy running the ride and say, you knock off, mate, I'll run this. And he just assumes you work there. As a tall six-year-old, yes. As a very, very tall six-year-old. I would like to tell you about the enigma of the panelled room. Ooh. I was waving my hands around while I said that. I don't know if it came across. to tell you about the enigma of the panelled room. Ooh. Mmm.

I was waving my hands around while I said that. I don't know if it came across. I think there was, yeah. Got a general vibe of it, yeah. Thank you. Come with me, James, to Canterbury. Oh, yeah. A very ancient city on the River Stour.

I went there recently. Ooh. I've been to Canterbury. Why did you go there? I'm just trying to amuse myself in Kent. It is in Kent. it is it's it is one of the high points of kent i think we can agree it's got the cathedral which you can't see you can't you have to pay to get in to see the cathedral oh did you know that no yeah you can't

even walk around it for free incredible i went on the canterbury tales experience oh yeah yeah i think it's one of them don't look for it it. It's not there anymore. Oh, is it? They put you on a donkey and tell you rude jokes for four days. Yes. Well, Canterbury's been around for a while, as I'm sure you know. It was called Duravernum by the Romans. And in Canterbury, as I discovered recently, you can go underground and you can see wibbly-wobbly mosaics beneath the modern streets. Oh, can you?

Yeah. I don't think the ground was wobbly in those days. I think when the Romans did it, it was flat. But now it looks like a Roman skate park. Oh, sweet. Gnarly. Gnarly. And I saw in one of the mosaics on the floor,

there were three of them, and the third one had a heart, like a love heart symbol on it, which I didn't realise was that old a symbol. No, me neither. And I like to think that that one represented love and that the other two were living and laughing. Maybe.

Yeah, I bet they did. So we're in Canterbury, as I was just recently. Come with me, James, to a number 34 St Margaret Street, which is mostly a 17th century building with loads of later additions. Now you would know it as Tiny Tim's Tea Rooms. The triple T. The triple, and it is the place to go for tea. They've got an incredible range.

The name is irritatingly quaint, but they have a really wide range of teas and coffees and a good range of vegan-friendly cakes. Oh, nice one, Tiny Tim. Again, look, I don't want to set up a rivalry twixt tim and megs but as tea rooms go i know which way i'm leaning and we were just about to leave when we discovered that the tea rooms has on the very top floor a ghost room oh i had very low expectations how did you know there was a little note saying come and see our ghost room

oh very friendly what would you do in that situation like a rat up a drain pipe like a ghost hunting rat absolutely like a six-year-old james on a roller coaster shoot straight up there yep the panelled room on the top floor is the ghost room you go up a squared spiral staircase to a very small room with a large brick fireplace panelled wooden walls all around, and very, very wonky floors. Roman floors, then. Yes, exactly like the Roman floors. Basically, Canterbury has gone wibbly. At some point between Roman times and now,

it wibbled. The buildings are just having to deal with the fallout. I can say that because my flat has really wonky floors, but nowhere near as wonky as the floors in this room. You wouldn't want to play marbles. You're joking, James. You're joking.

You'd struggle to tiddly wink, honestly. Not even tiddle one wink. You couldn't tiddle a wink in a room like that. There's little wooden hatches around the fireplace and there's a narrow door. And we open the door. Behind the door, a plastic skeleton. So, yeah, it was a low-grade Halloween product, but it had its effect i entered into the spirit of things yeah the mood was set and in the paneled room we discovered the legend of the paneled room as told on information fact sheets by a local canterbury legend named john

hippersley a canterbury legend what he himself is a canterbury legend he John Hippersley. A Canterbury legend? Well, he himself is a Canterbury legend. He is both a tour guy. Nice. A ghost tour guy. And the author of Haunted Canterbury from History Press's Haunted series. Nice. You know the one that has the chiller font? Yeah, I can imagine.

The classic 90s, the only scary font in your font deck. Chiller. Mm-hmm. He runs Ghost Tours of the City at the canterbury tours.com and in information fact sheets there he tells the story of 34 saint margaret's also known as the jeffrey house so it starts with a character called sir jeffrey newman they got a new man brand new apparently according to the cathedral archives sir jeffrey new, the Baronet, made a lot of money through piracy in a ship called Le Royal. Oh.

Which is French for? I'm guessing the Royal? The Big Mac, correct. Just a little joke there. Nice. hill he raided a french ship called lion d'argent the silver lion and tried to sell his his booty at the port of bilbao in spain only to find out james that the stuff he had just stolen had itself already been stolen from bilbao oh no you'd think that they'd be thrilled and he'd be like yeah oh yeah i was bringing it back but apparently they were not that pleased ah hippersley

says that he was arrested, tortured, and while awaiting trial, he was brought before the council general of the town and given a choice. Quote, having his internal organs pulled out of his mouth and burned before him before being cut into four pieces

and roasted over a fire, after which he would then be fed to the castle ravens or banishment and a heavy fine uh okay naturally he chose the latter what would james do was it pulled out of my mouth i believe it was the mouth yes i can't even work out how they do that um and i wouldn't want to find out i'm not sure it's possible but let's let's not put limits on the human imagination hebersley then says that he returned to England to his waiting wife. After 16 years, overjoyed at the 12 healthy children his wife had borne in his absence.

I think, Monsieur Hibisley, you have the little joke with us. He had 12 kids to look after, a massive family, so he needed a bigger house. And a god came to him in a dream and told him to approach the Dean of Canterbury, And God came to him in a dream and told him to approach the Dean of Canterbury, who leased him the ground on which now stands 34 St. Margaret's for 999 years at the cost of one groat a year. Which, over a thousand years, that's quite a lot of groats. He probably would have wanted to put in some kind of interest or... Yeah. They seem not to have done that.

But there was one little hitch to this sweet, sweet deal. The property would revert to the church if any Newman father outlived his only son. Right. Okay. Apparently. Apparently. So over the years,

his big house was split up into four properties, one of which is now 34 St Margaret's, a.k.a. Triple T. Triple T. And the house has stayed in the Newman family until the 20th century. The lease, in fact, was not breached until the Second World War II.

Right. You've heard of it? Yep. When the newest Newman was killed in a bombing raid, meaning that, you know, they breached the lease. But the lease had been all but forgotten by that time. According to Hippersley, the last of the Newman line lived until 1957. He was outlived by his wife by a further 12 years,

after which the widow sold all four properties to the dean and chapter for an alleged 4.9 million pounds. Whoa. So the church bought their own house back, James. Yikes. They should have gone with the Bill Bow bargaining technique. It was only after that sale that the original lease was uncovered by an archivist in the cathedral.

But by then it was too late. Hey, what's 4.9 million pounds in the 70s? A piffle. Nothing compared to your own good health, is it? Or the laugh on a smiling six-year-old James on a roller coaster. Yes. So everything was grand until the fire. In the 60s, the property became a Chinese restaurant. And according to the information fact sheet, it was called the Lok Yin, which is Mandarin for good luck. Nice. Although I asked Google Translate and it said it was Mandarin for catering. So you decide.

Okay. I think someone's being led a merry dance. Well, maybe. Maybe. Don't leap to judgment, James. I ask you to suspend judgment until I have laid the facts of the case before you. Okay. In the mid-80s, disaster struck.

According to Hippersley, in 1986, the owner of the Chinese restaurant had fallen afoul of triad loan sharks. Oh. It can happen to anyone. I guess. Somehow, a fire started and the property was gutted. Hippersley notes, Ironically, the remains of a Chinese man

were found in the very place where the fire alarm now stands. It's probably not that hilarious from his point of view. Not many people's point of view, I don't think. No, no. But you're aware, I'm sure, of the trend in the 60s and 70s in Britain of covering up sort of Victorian details and intricate mouldings and fireplaces with flat, featureless walls.

Are you aware of that, James? Yes, yeah. Well, exactly that had happened to the interior of 34 St Margaret's over the years. But the fire burned away the stud walls, revealing those beautiful fireplaces that I saw when I was at the tea rooms and revealing the panelled walls of the ghost room that nobody knew about.

To be honest, I was a little worried you were going to say you're aware of the fad in the 70s of covering up fire alarms with charred corpses. It was a different time, James. It was, it was. It was a different time. We can't judge them by our standards. james it was it was it was a different child we can't judge them by our standards the canterbury archaeological trust's yearly report from the year 1985 to 1986 um i'm sure i don't have to tell you james always on the bedside table i should imagine definitely i mean it's one of them ones where it's

if it's out of the library it's probably because i've got it yeah absolutely yeah it's only shakeshaft with the old canterbury Archaeological Trust yearly report. 1985-6? Of course 1985-6. You betcha. That report describes it as a curious 17th century building, noting that behind its bland 19th century façade, the original frame remains virtually intact, including some of the best details observed to date for a building of this period.

A small panelled chamber at the rear of the second floor only just fortunately escaped the onslaught of the flames. And in the ghost room, you can see pictures of the panelling sort of half burned away and the hollowed out shell of the building with the staircase completely destroyed. Now, according to Hippisley, in the panelled room that you now stand in, behind the panels were found. I don't know if he sounds like this, by the way.

I'm just guessing. Behind the panels were found inscriptions for the children of the family that had lived and died for many generations. There were in total 186 pieces of linen fold panelling. And behind each one had been placed a child's tooth. Oh. Sometimes covered in silver. A ring placed a child's tooth. Oh. Sometimes covered in silver. A ringlet of child's hair. And the name, date of birth and date of death for each.

Uh-oh. Oh. The loose bricks in the fireplace revealed bags of salt in Hessian and a collection of children's shoes, all from around the 16th century. Well, I mean, it's weird and macabre but related. I don't understand the addition of the salt. I'm not sure why the 16th century. Well, I mean, it's weird and macabre, but related. I don't understand the addition of the salt. I'm not sure why the salt's there. Well, maybe just to, I don't know, to preserve it?

With the bags of salt? I'm guessing it's rock salt as well, rather than fine table salt if it's in Hessian. It'd be spilling everywhere, wouldn't it? Oh, God, yeah. But it gets stranger still, James. Did you think that was as strange as it was going to get? I thought it was pretty strange. Well, it's going to get stranger still james did you think that was as strange as it was gonna get uh i thought it was pretty strange well it's gonna get stranger still right whoa according to

hipersley the bodies of three mummified children were found in the attic wrapped in shrouds that were stitched through the nose in the nautical style uh didn't know that no i didn't know that either that's a fun little fact but just a fun little fact are you aware of the nautical style the jaunty nautical style of uh of shroud stitching through the nose right of course um no thank you i'm not a sailor sailors well apparently sailors would be stitched up in their hammocks that much seems to definitely be true uh if they if they died not if they didn't die except maybe as a joke. And the saying goes, or the legend is, that the last stitch would go through the nose

to check if you were really, truly dead. Ah. From my point of view, as someone who hasn't got a lot of time to waste stitching people up in hammocks who are alive, check first. Yes. I'm not going to stitch the whole hammock,

stick it through your nose, and you go, oh, my nose! And they go, right, great, well, I'll just have to unstitch you now. Yeah, start with the nose. Start with the nose. Just go, oh, my nose! And they go, right, great, well, I'll just have to unstitch you now. Yeah, start with the nose. Start with the nose. Just poke, just check. Just ask.

Victorians were just nuts about people being mistaken for if they were dead. Just check. Just really check. Ask nicely. Now, the blog British Tars, which is about sailors and general nautical stuff, has a blog post about this supposed practice, which was believed by sailors to have been done since friend of the show the time memorial ah the time memorial since time memorial

according to that blog the earliest reference to this in the literature that can be found is in 1831 oh that's as a thing that people used to do so so maybe it happened maybe it didn't happen i don't know but still it's kind of cool through the nose cool little side fact definitely after the fire the council took over the reconstruction of the paneled room and of the squared spiral staircase which had been revealed by the fire or rather the remains of which had been revealed by the fire and that was the very same squared spiral staircase that i ascended myself oh as a patron they rebuilt it in the way it had been before but the house did not rest easy james late at night workmen in the building and i don't want to stereotype but i presume they were

doughty level-headed fellows not given to imagination they began to hear sounds whispering singing and and the laughter as if of a child what strange drops in temperature and a sense that something was wrong now this is where things get fuzzy james according to john hippersley's information fact sheets the cause of the children's death could not be established but they were dated to 1503 thanks to the Bibles clasped in their hands. Right. That's what John Hippersley wrote. But, according to bitter rival John Hippersley in Haunted Canterbury, the four mummies, not three,

sorry, did you think there were three mummies there? Yeah, yeah, I did. Well, it's four mummies now. You were wrong by a quarter. Oh. Or a third? I'm not sure. I was out. I was a full mummy out. Catch up, you were out by a quarter. Oh. Or a third? I'm not sure. You were...

I was out. I was a full mummy out. Catch up, you were out by an entire mummy. Mm. The four mummies died of cholera, clutching not Bibles, but handwritten parchments of the Fifth Psalm. Ah.

And they were carbon dated to within 10 years of 1415. To 1425? Could be. Could be. Or 1405. Oh, yeah, either way. Either way, James. So, okay, fair enough.

That's a minor discrepancy. Yeah. Now, being a ghost tour guy is not an exact science. No. Wait, wait, wait, James. Whoa, whoa, whoa. Hold there, whoa.

Whoa, whoa, whoa. Did you think he was just a tour guy? Uh, yes. No, and author. No. He's a ghost hunter. Oh. Doing it on the side. He's got a side hustle. Everyone has two these days. Yes. He's a ghost hunter. Oh. Doing it on the side.

He's got a side hustle. Everyone has two these days. Yes. Portfolio careers. Is he disrupting the ghost hunting thing? He does seem like he will be disruptive based on the information I've gathered. The top hat. Mm-hmm.

Yeah. I think he's cocking a snoop. Or possibly a snoop towards your more boring historical walking tours. Mm-hmm. How so? With his top ass, but also with his sort of slightly jokey tone. He popped in a couple of gags there, didn't he? He did, he did.

Yeah. Haunted Canterbury recounts how in Year of Our Lord 1991, Hippersley and his fellow researcher, a defrocked Catholic priest, which is the most dangerous kind of priest. Naked? Yeah, that's the second stage in a boss fight with a Catholic priest, and after that they turn into a giant snake. Hippersley and his defrocked friend spent a night in 34 St Margaret's

getting into what I would describe as Abbott and Costello-esque hijinks. Yeah. While zipped into his sleeping bag, Hi hippersley heard a nursery rhyme do you always zip the nose last as well in the nautical fashion yes he starts to hear what very faintly what seems to be a tune sung by children and i'm reading now almy candles breda brichter candle lichter for al nichter and he says at the, I did not understand the language, but have since discovered it was a traditional medieval song, sung over children dying of plague or ague.

Those children that see this light by their bed will not in the morning, for they will be with the Lord. Oh. Although dead would have rhymed. Yeah. Better. Yeah. Now, I'm not an expert on older forms of the English language.

I don't think it says that. Just not enough words in it. It's way too short. Yeah. All me candles breden brichter. All my candles burn brighter. Candle lichter must be lighter. I just don't think it says that.

Yeah. Anyway, still, that's pretty spooky to hear that. But that was not the end. He was woken, assaulted seemingly by the ghost and tried to run away from the ghost while zipped up in his sleeping bag, banged into the door, nearly fell down the stairs

and found his friend almost being throttled to death with his own rosary beads by unseen hands. Oh no. Pretty intense. Next morning, a door on the top floor had been torn from its hinges and blood was dripping down the walls. Blimey.

I think the priest should have got rid of the jewellery as well as the frock. Yeah, you can't keep the rosary beads. Maybe it was just the Catholic church telling him to be like, you're not allowed those, mate. You had your chance. Give them here. Still, that is the story of the panelled room. James, are you ready for scores?

Yes. Well, I'm not. Oh. Yeah. Record scratch. Brakes squealing. Squeak. Old-fashioned car horn.

Genre shift. James, I need a genre shift in here right now. Oh. This is no longer a folklore podcast, James. What? This is now a true crime expose podcast. And the crime is telling porkies. And the suspect is none other than local legend John Hippersley.

Oh, no. Who is a real living man, and I will do my best not to slander. Right. When I hear a story for the podcast, as I'm sure you do, I like to do a bit of reading around it. So look for other sources, like find out about the stitch through the nose, that sort of thing. I like to, you know, flesh out the story. I like to corroborate the sources.

Yeah. And I did that with The Legend of the Panelled Room. Sure. Oh, boy. What? Oh, mama. What? Let's start small. Some of Hippizli's dates are a bit off. Right. Oh, boy. What? Oh, mama. What? Mmm.

Let's start small. Some of Hippizli's dates are a bit off. Right. So what? So what? I think the fire happened in 1984, not 1986. OK. But just as he says, there was a Chinese restaurant called Lok Yin in Canterbury,

spelled slightly differently to how he spelled it, but still. Crucially, not on St Margaret's Street. Oh. According to a 1977 edition of InCant, I don't need to tell you, the Canterbury student newspaper. Yes. The Lock Yin was on St Peter's Street.

There was a Chinese restaurant on St Margaret's at 34 St Margaret's, and that was the Hop Kwang, sister restaurant of the Hop Kwang in Folkestone. Oh. Which stayed open for many years and finally closed in 2020 due to COVID. Oh. Now, the Hop Kwang in Folkestone. Oh. Which stayed open for many years and finally closed in 2020 due to COVID. Now, the Hopkwang in Folkestone was loved by locals for its time warp 1970s vibes and its booths.

And it was criticised by the health inspector for storing food in open containers on the floor. Oh, it was a different time. Swings and roundabouts, really. I think it was the 90s when that happened, but it was was as if it was a different time it was the 70s now the hop queen in canterbury burned down in 1984 according to the kent historic environment record now i can't find any news reports about this so it happened but i can't tell you much about it i can't find and this is going to startle you james i can't find any evidence that the triads were operating in 1980s Canterbury. Okay, then.

That's going to startle and shake your worldview. It does a little. But does that prove that they weren't? No, absolutely not. No. Maybe they were just too good at their jobs. They're going to cover the tracks. Of course they are.

We're not dealing with amateurs here, it's the triads. It's like when Colin Powell showed those aerial photographs of Iraq that didn't have anything in them. Yeah. Like, look how well they're hiding the weapons. Very good at hiding things. Whoa, these factories are so well hidden. Mm.

Mm. So the place could be full of triads. I can't find any news articles saying that anybody died in the fire, but I can't find any news articles about the fire, so I can't really prove anything one way or the other. The best account we have comes from your friend and mine, the Canterbury Archaeological Trust, who were just thrilled, just absolutely ecstatic,

bouncing off what remains of the walls about the history that the fire had revealed. Oh, so that bit's true. Oh, yeah. Clive Bowley, City Council Conservation Office. Look sharp, fellas. It's Bowley. I just don't know anything about this guy.

I just love the other, like, who do you work for, Bowley? The City Council Conservation Office. I have authority here. Step aside. What's behind that panel? The tooth? 180 teeth.

That's quite a lot of teeth. In the 1986 to 1987 report, a year after the one we were talking about before not not as good as the previous year but still a fine report the difficult second report he wrote ecstatically further investigation has revealed a total of four fine stuccoed brick fireplaces the moldings of the first floor fireplace with fleur-de-lis motifs to the and one surviving decorative spandrel panel with traces of bucranium moulding out of special interest. What's bucranium? Bucranium. You heard me. You're dealing with Bowley now, James. He knows bucranium when he

sees it. Sounds like something out of Marvel. It does. I think it's just a kind of relief moulding. Even more remarkable was the discovery of sufficient evidence to enable the reconstruction of the design of the original staircase that had been completely removed. So that, you can see how excited Bowley is. And he's not a man who flies off a handle. No, no, he's got, you've got to have a level head to work on the old, what was it? City Council Conservation Office. CCCO. Otherwise they wouldn't let you carry a weapon yeah exactly very very weirdly james like bizarrely weirdly they don't mention at any point ringlets of hair or teeth covered in silver or three to four mummified bodies so distracted were they by the bucranium molding and the

spandrel panels spandrel so swept up in the spandy pandies that they just skipped over, presumably, multiple dead bodies. Oh, and I didn't mention mummified cats and dogs as well. Right. I'd sorted. Seems like an odd oversight. You'd think archaeologists would be interested in that sort of thing. Yeah, maybe. It's not the strangest thing about the bodies. Remember, the bodies dated from either 1503 or 1415. as i've told you i think twice now the building is a 17th century building that's how the uh the archaeological trust described it meaning that the bodies were found in the attic of a building that wasn't constructed until one to two centuries after they died the timeline makes no sense james maybe just sort of floating there that we need to cover this up just waiting for an attic to arrive pop a building over him that's getting very wet up there put a

little salt in a little salt to absorb the moisture what about sir jeffrey newman james the baronet pirate yeah yeah i can't find a lot of stuff about him can't find any record of uh a baronet jeffrey newman um or his his his vessel le royal as far as i can tell there's only ever been one baronet called sir jeffrey newman and he's he's alive now so probably not him no there was a famous 17 stick a needle through his nose just to check we should check although he's a living person you're saying that about so so let's watch it. Well, as far as we know. As far as we know, he's a living person.

There was a famous 17th century Cantuarian called Sir George Newman and he's immortalised in statue form in the nearby St Margaret's Church. But James, he was the opposite of a pirate. Right. He had three legs.

He had loads of eyes. Massive number of legs. He lived on a parrot's shoulder. He was responsible for sentencing pirates because he was a judge of the cinq ports. Right. As in, un, deux, trois, quatre, cinq. Right. Not underwater. That's the last thing you'd want in an harbour.

That's the opposite of a dry dock, I guess. Un, deux, trois, quatre. Oh, sank. Oh, la, la. That's an unsuccessful launch at a French port there. Yes. I'm sure you're aware of which Kent ports make up the sank ports, but do you want to have a go?

Dover? Yes. Straight out of the gate with Dover. Sheppey? No. That's an island. I'll give you a clue. They're on the mainland, these ports.

What? Yeah. Margins? No, no, not quite. Whitstable? Is that a port town don't know I think you do I think you try and say things that are on the coast where did the battle of Hastings take place battle well no it was Hastings in this case sorry to be fair you are right with your answer but you were wrong about the ports and yep fair enough I did say Kentent hastings is not in kent yeah come on if anyone knows that right now it's me yep fair enough i accept full responsibility there this

the sank ports uh originally were um hastings new romney there's a new romney hive hive yeah it's it's it is to old romney as coke is to new coke. Everyone hates New Romney. Hive, Dover, of course, and Sandwich. Of course, Sandwich. Now, do Americans know that Sandwich is a place? Don't know. Let's not tell them. Yeah, well, you just found out if you're an American and you didn't know. Do they know that Ham's a place as well?

There should be a train line joining them, the Ham Sandwich line. Yes, definitely. Is there a town called Demi Baguette? if you don't know where sandwich is it's between margate and deal if you want to imagine a geography sandwich that'll be a sandwich sandwich so um so we're doing quite poorly so far do you remember how the property was allegedly sold for 4.9 million pounds in the late 60s or early 70s. Yeah. It seemed like a lot of money, didn't it? Yeah. I just decided to try and find out how much money that is.

That's roughly the equivalent of £64 million now. Yai, yai, yai. For four houses. Yeah, that seems too much. That's too much. I looked at the rough valuations of properties on that street. You could probably buy those properties now for less than five million quid.

Right. The lot. Yeah. Job lot. Yeah, because they're less than a million pounds each. The numbers make no sense, James. The timeline makes no sense. It's like a Pulp Fiction by your friend,

not our friend, Quintin Tarantino. Quintin Tarantino. Quintin Tarantino? Yeah. It is like the Pulp Fictions from Quintin Tarantino. John Hippersley, you have brought the fine tradition of the information fact sheet into disrepute. Was it laminated?

It was not laminated. It was framed and behind glass. But isn't framing a picture old school laminating? Yeah, it's the lamination of the 19th century. In a way. Great point, James. Yeah, thanks. I thought I'd found a smoking gun.

Go on. Was it a boiling kettle? I thought I had Hippis Lee nailed to the wall, very much like those picture frames. But I'm not sure now. I don't know that they were nailed. In 2009, he told the kent on sunday newspaper i saw my first ghost at 13 but did not begin actual phantom sleuthing

until 1995 how can that be james when his his very book describes an incredibly unconvincing ghost hunt occurring in 1991. Whoa. What is that I smell from the end of the gun? Is it smoke? It's some smoke, yes. On the other hand, I mean, maybe he was just misquoted in the paper. I think he started doing ghost walks around about then. Could be a typo.

It could be a typo. So I don't know if i would really um send him down just for that i'd say i've been able to corroborate three facts from the information fact sheets to be fair go on uh it used to be a chinese restaurant yes there was a fire and do you remember it said in the paneled room that you stand in now? Yes. Well, when I read that, James, I was standing in the panelled room. Ooh. He's got you there.

He has got you there. How did you know, hippiesly? And that, James, that is the enigma of the panelled room. What an enigma. How did he know? Probably stipulated on, it's probably on the back of the piece of paper that you can see saying stick this up in the paneled room or else that's probably it signed hippersley jay hippersley i i don't know i'm not saying i'm not saying it's fake i don't have access to the cathedral archives i'm not a defrocked priest i am a fully clothed layperson. So it's not for me to say it's not true. That's for you to say, James.

Okay. Well, it is an enigma wrapped in a panelled room inside a Kent, as Churchill said. Did he? It's one of his lesser speeches. Yeah, but very niche. Only the real fans know that one are you ready to score this this bad boy and the bad boy i'm referring to is john hippersley yeah well yes from the sound

of things he's been he has been a very naughty boy may or may not or has been misled whoever told this story to him i think was leading him a merry dance. I feel like my hands are full of stones, but I, Alistair, am in a glass house. A greenhouse. It's a greenhouse. Oh, yeah. I guess, in a way, we also have maybe at some point passed off information that wasn't completely 100% accurate

on this very podcast. Chris Cantrell has appeared numerous times. Let she who is not Ruth L. T tongue tongue the first stone yuck are you tonguing a stone turned out no turned out that wasn't a stone it's one of the best ways to find out if something's a stone in my experience yes according to robin ince as well if i remember rightly yeah the stone tongue robin ince don't don't did you edit that bit out was that part of the patreon only bit i think so but actually it genuinely is a way to tell if something's a fossil or a stone is to put it on your tongue yeah because the tongue knows the tongue knows it's like the tongue knows this may have been your on the internet about sensing wet laundry oh yeah

yeah yeah i think i've so we've definitely can't have a conversation with that it's got to be on the lips the lips now the lips nose the lips of the lips the lips are the only part of the body that can tell if it's wet yes it's like yeah that picture from science books i think i said that before what are you thinking of the sensory homunculus yes yeah but they they depict it missing with no willy so it's not accurate it might be a lady homunculus. Yeah, but it's not because it also has none of the lady parts. There are rude slash accurate versions of the homunculus out there,

but you don't want to see them. I think someone might have adapted the original in the science books at my school. In the school textbook, yeah. But then I think they turned everything into a homunculus then. Yep, a lot of homunculi around the place. So let's score this. My first category for you, James, is the category of names. Naming.

Right. Yes. Very good. Hipsley is a lovely name. It's fun to say. It's a lovely name. Hippisley, Hipsley, Hippelsley, if you just read it wrong. Yeah, if you just say the letters in a different order.

Yep, could be anything. We've got the Judge of the Sank Ports. The Judge of the Sank Ports. The Sank Ports. The first underwater ports. We've got Clive Bowley, City Council Conservation Office. Don't mess with him. Clive Bowleyley the very same we've got the hop quang versus the lock yin which yeah which do you prefer they both went out of business

years ago so i it's i think it's i think it's a four it's sturdy it's a it's a sturdy old four like the like the building itself it can can withstand a fire that guts the interior, but the frame survives. What about Le Royale? I just remembered there's a ship called Le Royale and the Lyon d'Argent. Way. And I was taking into account the fact

that it's called the Tiny Tim Tea Rooms. Tiny Tim's Tea Rooms. The Triple T. It's the Triple T threat. It's solid. A respectable old four. I'll just eliminate that. Next category.

For this category, James, I invite you to imagine that the second half of this episode didn't happen. Okay. I just described a whole load of spooky stuff and then went straight to the scores. So no record scratch scratch no car horn honk unhonk that horn sunny i'm imagining a calendar but the days of getting put back on it as opposed to ripping off back on yeah it's stapling manually move the hands of the clock back and grade me on supernatural well it is chilling there is that whole baby bit the crying of the children is very scary crying and singing no matter what they were singing even if it was in abridged form they were

sort of singing in text speak yeah you up mate mate in this context is god yeah yeah see the thing is those builders they weren't pre-17th century. They were very much post-17th century, those builders. Yeah, exactly. That may not be part of the fabric, the tissue of mistruths. Beautiful turn of phrase there, James. Can I just stop the podcast to say, beautiful turn of phrase. The tissue of mistruths. So, if you go with that having happened, and it's just the backstory, the origin story is, you know, inaccurate. No smoke without fire.

No fires without triads. Allegedly. Allegedly. It's quite scary, then. And we still don't know. We have no explanation for these spooky little choir. Yeah. And also, when the ghost throttled that priest, do you think that happened, James?

Well, we can't say that it didn't. Former priest. Yeah, defrocked. We certainly can't say that it didn't. If anything, it's more scary for me now. I'm going to go with a four again. A four? Yeah.

I mean, yeah, that's very much the number I was expecting, a four. Mm. Correct. Just because all the stuff that has been has been debunked by yourself is that's not the ghosty bit that's just the reason for the ghosty bit yeah yeah it's definitely still ghosts i mean as reported by the same person who reported all the other stuff but yeah yeah the builders think there's ghosts and it definitely got rebuilt so the builders must have been there that's why they won't work late at night.

When they were at work, as builders are famous for doing. Late-night builders. Okay, I'll gladly take that for, and slip that into the behind-the-glass of the information fact sheet. Yeah, yeah. Right, so let's re-bunk all of that stuff that I debunked. Oh, go, right. Oh, I know, we're un-bunking again.

So I want to go back to zero bunk. Okay. Next category. Yes. Telling Tales. Ooh. Do you see what I've done there? That's a mixture of bunk and debunk, isn't it?

What, yeah, we're mid-bunk. I can see sort of three major strands to this argument, right? So you've got the tale being told in its laminated format. That is a tale told and very well i have to say by john hippersley the telling tales it's like a tall tale that kind of implies that you know there's been some invention going on someone at some point might have made something up yes that's all that's all we know for sure and that's what you found out and that brings us to the third strand.

Triple meaning. We often do double meanings on this podcast, but this is now a triple meaning. Which is you dobbing him right in. Absolutely. Snitching. Allegedly. Alleging him right in. I allegedly have been on this podcast dobbing someone in.

So, and it's likely that Hipsley was told the tall tale himself so that's potentially four i think this is another four i don't a four i'm concerned we could be staring at four fours here we could be looking at four fours a four fours okay depends what this final category is yeah well that puts a lot of pressure on on my category. And I think I'm going to have blown this because it's a good one. My final category is number of ports. Oh, what do we got again? Un, deux, trois, quatre, cinq. We've got, of course, the ports of Hastings, New Romney, Hive, Dover and Sandwich.

I mean, it's obviously going to have to be a five, but this feels like a sad five, yeah. I'm kind of annoyed now. Yeah, I don't feel like, it doesn't feel like a victory. I want a four. Maybe you should have gone with ports in Kent. Yeah, are there four of those? I don't know, I don't know.

No, I don't know either. I famously don't know where almost any place is. But okay, all right, it's a a five but what if like one of the ports sank how many would be left james lovely lovely can we do it yeah all right then okay you got you've got a four four four four you've got a quadruple threat you've one up tiny tim well i'm i don't really know why i took myself out of a five there but we did it james yeah i think it just feels nicer it's just nicer it is just nicer well that was the story of the enigma of the paneled room in tiny tim's tea rooms ttt and god bless us everyone

even the ghosts even the mummified kid children ghosts that's one of the weird things about canterbury you would think it would be all canterbury tales yes and there's a few places that are but most of the places seem to be charles dickens themed even though from an outside point of view he's not particularly associated with canterbury but try telling that to canterbury what has he hasn't he's not from Canterbury is he is he from Portsmouth or something no he's not from Canterbury I think he I think he spent some time there and set some of his books there it's the same in Rochester which doesn't even have Geoffrey Chaucer Rochester is obsessed with Charles Dickens every second shop is Charles

Dickens themed but you'd think Canterbury you've got got Chaucer. You could have the wife of Bath's Rooms. Yes. That's just one example. That is just one example. Chaucerian shop you could have. Just going to quickly Google Canterbury Tales. I've really peaked, I think, with wife of Bath's Rooms. Yes, I think so.

If you were a grocer's that only sold parsnips. Yes. You could be the parsnips tale. Parsnips tale, yeah. Yeah, that works. But you do have to be a grocer's that only sells parsnips yes it could be the parsnips tail parsnips tail yeah yeah that works that it but you do have to be a grocer that only sells parsnips the fish and chip shop will be the fryer's tail yes you did it james that one's actually good they should have that and i guess a hearing aid shop called the pardoner's tail yeah this is very someone should start these businesses.

Those are really good ideas. So there you have it, James. I think you'll agree. A rollercoaster slash thrill ride. I will now sell you a photograph of yourself looking foolish. James, it's all kicking off in the Discord. It is. The lawfolk have started to organise themselves. Oh?

One of the lawfolk, Fenysa, has organised a secret Christmas pig. It is only a number of days until Christmas pig, and it's this very special Christmas pig this year, Alistair. What? It's not only Christmas pig. We haven't got enough time to explain that. But it's also our sixth birthday and the 200th episode. If you want to understand a thing we're talking about what can

you do join the patreon at patreon.com forward slash lawmen pod which will allow you access to the lawfolk discord where every answer is in there where every answer is not not every single answer answers may sometimes be questions to his credit the stories are well told quite humorous perhaps not meant to be taken as seriously as I have and if you'd like to hear more of them

you can go on his ghost tour if you want thecanterburytours.com oh