Loremen Podcast - S5 Ep12: Loremen S5Ep12 - The Hollow of the Seckyban

Episode Date: December 7, 2023

If you’re walking home late one night, and you hear something rolling along beside you – beware! You might have encountered the Sac Bàn - AKA the Seckyban or the White Sack. Alasdair chills James to his marrow with the legend of a creature who rolls around the byways of Scotland like an angry pudding. You see, a sighting of the White Sack means death! From the Hollow of the White Sack to the Creagan Change House, this episode features several dodgy pronunciations, sixteen old men, two noms de plume, and the longest trip to the off license in folklore history. LoreBoys nether say die! Support the Loremen here (and get stuff): patreon.com/loremenpod ko-fi.com/loremen Check the sweet, sweet merch here... https://www.teepublic.com/stores/loremen-podcast?ref_id=24631 @loremenpod youtube.com/loremenpodcast www.instagram.com/loremenpod www.facebook.com/loremenpod

Welcome to Lawmen, a podcast about local legends and obscure curiosities from days of yore, with me, Alastair Beckett-King. And me, James Shakeshaft. Hello there, James. What? Hello, we James. Yes, that's right. I was doing a Scots accent because this story that I'm about to tell you takes place in Argyle. The clothing? Not the clothing.

The diamonds? Not the sheep. Not someone's butler. But the place in Scotland. Not your guile. Argyle. James. Hmm?

When this episode is over, you will never look at a bag in the same way again. That is a promise. That's a guarantee. That's a promise from me to you, but crucially a bag in the same way again. That is a promise. That's a guarantee. That's a promise from me to you, but crucially, not to the listener. I give you the legend of the hollow of the Secchi Bar. Well, James. Mm-hmm. You know Appin in Argyle, right?

Appin, I do know it quite well, aye. I've taken you to Appin many a time. Handsome scenery, rugged people. Devil books? Yes, correct. The Red Book of Appin. Yes, a few wizards knocking around. A lot of sheep and cattle.

And a lot of the wizardry in the area quite focused on cows. I'm quite a big fan of Facebook pages dedicated to putting out nice pictures of Appin. And one of the best is called Appin of Yesteryear. Oh, yeah. And they show Appin, but they show lovely pictures of it from the olden days. Oh. I know this is an audio podcast medium we're working in, but I'd like to share a picture with you from Appin of Yesteryear. Oh, yeah. Port Appin, then and now. Great. we're working in but i'd like to share a picture with you from from appin of yesteryear called

port appin then and now great and um i basically the the first image is an old quaint black and white image of a port appin from days gone by from years gone by is the new one generative ai it's not quite that futuristic it's it is an actual photograph so there's the old photo and then it presents you with a modern picture in like a spot the difference oh nice yeah so here you go okay so it's the same yes it's uh it is exactly the same it's a stretch of road with a fence next to it hey no i can spot a couple of differences they've got rid of a tree and they've added a wheelie bin and it's in color yes that's that was going to be one of my differences that is the main difference the caption for this picture

is port happened then and now i'd say it's the same clouds i'm not sure yeah it's like even the mountain in the background is exactly the same amount of misty. Yeah, it's like a 90s video game. Yeah, because of the... Yeah, the render distance. Yeah. Yes, that is actually Silent Hill, that hill in the background. There's also an abnormally small 30 miles an hour sign in the nowadays. Is that unusually small?

I thought it looked a bit low. There's no scale there. There's no 50p in the shot. It might just be that the people of Appen are so sort of rangy and lofty that the photographer is, you know, seven or eight feet in the air while taking that picture. Right, yes. Creating the impression that the 30 miles zone,

which wasn't there in the good old days of then. No. It happened of yesteryear. You could go as fast as you wanted and there were no breathalysers. Yeah. Drink as much as you like. local police were uh good good chaps i don't know i don't want to i've got some opinions about how mad it was about drink and driving in the past like the adverts that are like don't have five in those days they just called it driving in certain parts of the

what how do how were people getting home from the pub? It was in the middle of nowhere. Which brings me on to a place called Cregan. Cregan? Yes. That sounds like an American man's name. It does, doesn't it? Hey, Mackenzie, come over here and meet Cregan.

He's the new guy. He's got a fringe. Well, it means rock. Oh. Which is probably the kind of music that Cregan would listen to yeah too darn loud my story for you today comes from the lore of scotland by westwood and kings hill who i have relied upon many a time on this podcast and cregan is a place as well as a bridge and still to this day an inn what What? It's a place and a bridge and an inn? It's a triple threat. Also, I think it's a hill as well.

Whoa. Yeah, there's loads of stuff going on in the Cregan region. There's no end to its talents. It's on the north side of Loch Crieren. And if you go up past Fasnachloich, you can see the fairy bridge of Glen Crieren. Glen? Is Glen's got a fairy bridge?

Yeah. And I sent you a picture of this before so you could have a look at it because I thought you would like it. I didn't know if I was supposed to look at it live, so I didn't look at it. Oh, well, get ready for your eyes to show you something now, James. Oh, hello. Oh, it's got...

What are you seeing? Prenolations. It's like a... It's got teeth. Yeah, it's like a bridge with teeth or a bridge that's got like two sort of bits of stone circle going along the side of it. It's a very odd thing. I don't know that anybody knows who built it. I don't know whether it's a bridge by fairies or for fairies.

Or a bridge over fairies? Yeah, perhaps. I don't think they'd like crossing water, do they, fairies? So it's a bit weird that they would have a bridge. Isn't that vampires? Or are they similarly afflicted? I don't know. I thought it was every magical thing didn't like crossing water do they fairies so it's a bit weird that they would have a bridge isn't that vampires or are they similarly afflicted i don't know i thought it was every magical thing didn't like crossing water moving water didn't like crossing moving water so so moving yeah they're fine with the puddle yeah or maybe if the river freezes all the vampires get across oh you better watch out that's a good point yeah um i've one of these I've honed in on is a particularly moss-covered version of this fairy bridge with its jutting teeth rocks as a sort of a barrier, but not a very good barrier

because there's massive gaps between the rocks. Yeah, yeah, yeah. They're there to look spooky and magical. I don't think they serve, especially since the side of a bridge, you might want to rest your hands on it, but it's just got spiky, jagged rocks. Yeah. Well, you know what? They've succeeded if they want it to look spooky and atmospheric.

They have. They have. But it also looks kind of quaint and cute and sweet. And James, let me tell you, bridges like that, they don't give you the whole story about fairies. Really? Fairies, they're not always nice. They're not always creating pretty little river crossings.

No? Sometimes they're being weird. Ah. I'd like to tell you about a very nasty bogle. Mm. Goes by the name of the sack barn, or the secchi barn, or the sedge barn.

Okay. Or, in English, the white sack. What? It's not that dramatic a name. That's why I started with the Gaelic. Oh. It's a white sack. Imagine a white sack, James.

Yeah. Are you scared yet? No. You will be. Okay. It's making me think of American Beauty. Yeah, it's like that. But imagine if instead of floating around supposedly magically,

there was a little guy in it who was out to get you. There's a man in that sack. The White Sack is a little guy who wears a sack and he rolls around and portends death or if you believe john francis campbell of isla's version of it as translated by of course john mckay in more west highland tales volume 1 1940 if you believe john francis campbell it'll just straight up kill you. The bag? The white sack. The white sack. McKay translates his warning as,

the white sack used to roll itself around before men's feet, bringing them down, then getting on top of them. It used to flatten them out and murder them. No. So he rolls up to you like a sort of, I guess, a bowling ball. Yeah. And then, like a Mario villain, you're flat. Oh, I guess he tangles and trips you up.

Yeah, he gets all on your feet. Now, he seems to be most dangerous when he's in front of you. He rolls before people, and that's when he's dangerous. If he's behind you, it seems, you've got a chance. Right. So if you were to sling him over your shoulder in that bag yeah you're cool you're you're away i don't know if you should relax in that situation is it like a tote or is it like a plastic bag i i'm imagining something

quite a coarse fabric james yes probably like one of your bags for life quality sort of not in this case quite the opposite a bag for death yes possible title for the episode there yes and definitely a category so according to the transactions of the gallic society of inverness 1897 oh yeah yeah yeah yeah good year the white sack used to hang about in a place called the hollow of the white Sack. Oh, yeah. Which came first. Which was a small valley behind Dunachnahath, which is... Oh, by the way, pronunciations here. I apologise in advance to the people of Scotland,

living and dead. Dunachnahath is a ruined fort in a kiln field near Musedale on the west coast of Kintyre. That's M-U-A-S-D-A-L-E. It's a small, small place to this day. I don't know if it's pronounced Musedale. And statistically speaking, neither do you, the listener. So, you know, who's going to get me?

Well, is someone from Musedale listening to this? Very unlikely that they are. So... Musedale. They wouldn't even know you're talking about them in Musedale. In the Transactions of the Galaxy Society of Inverness, 1897, they translate the legend of the hollow of the White Sack. And they translated thusly,

The White Sack was a spirit. There were 16 old men in Musedale. Don't get attached to them, James. It's not relevant that there were 16 of them. Only one of them is even barely involved in the story. Okay, okay. Seems like a lot of old men. It's a lot to mention and then not call back to in any way.

And I don't want you to think I'm double bluffing here. And then suddenly 16 guys popped out. They're not coming back into the story. Don't invest any thought in them. 16 elderly men. Are they Chekhov's 16 elderly men? They're not. We've got a surplus of 15 elderly men in this story.

Okay. They're just for spares. One of those men had a servant girl. He's now out of the story. Even that last one, that's the end of him now. Wow. This sounds like me telling a natural anecdote in my life. He also had a son and a wife.

All of these people I've just mentioned are way more important than the 16 old men. Right. Basically, the son and the servant girl, well, James, human nature being what it is. You're a man of the world. Yes. I'm sure you can imagine the romantic feelings might have begun to develop between them. I can imagine romantic feelings, yes. Can you? Go on. Go on, do it then.

That makes me sound like a psychopath. Yes. Can you? Go on. Go on, do it then. Go on then. That makes me sound like a psychopath. So the young man was courting the servant girl and his mother,

wife of old man 15. That's a different, that's a, you know, you've got to be careful how you say that sentence. Say that again. The young man was courting the servant girl and his mother. Yeah, I did pause for too long. Yeah, that got me confused. And I was not imagining those sort of amorous thoughts. Thank you very much.

No, no, no, no, no, no. Full stop. This is not Oedipus Men. The young man was courting the servant girl. Line break. Carriage return. Press enter. Carriage return.

Smack the dinger, whatever that thing is. Yep. And his mother wasn't happy about it. Oh, here we go. His mother took a great spite to the girl. She did not know how she might do away with her. They sold drink over at the Cregan. Now, it's called Cregan here.

Wait a minute. But John McKay identifies Cregan as the Cregan Change House. I was going to say, isn't that the guy with the fringe from earlier? No, that's good. Yeah, Cregan, he his roomies with Cregan. They play hacky sack together. Of course they do. They do beer pong.

Oh, these guys. Do you know what that is? Yeah, I've played a beer pong. Not to seem incredibly uncool, but it's just a phrase I've heard. I've no idea what it is. Oh, okay. Right.

What is it? Let me just get... I'm just going to find the... Oh, you're Googling it. You don't know what it is. No. I can hear you Googling. I'm not Googling that.

I'm just Googling some other information, actually. It's not even about the podcast. Right. What you need is 10 Solo Cups. What's a Solo Cup? They are those red cups that you see in American films. Why does it have to be that kind of cup? You're at a frat party, Alistair. I'm that kind of cup you're at a frat party alistair

i'm not but i could i could be at a frat party you're watching a film about a frat party i've done that yes and you've got a long table and at each end of the table you set up your 10 solo cups in a sort of uh pyramid not we're not going high we're keeping it on the table so it's basically a triangle not a pyramid it's a triangle right you fill each of them cups with beer probably from your mate's kegger and you have a ping pong ball come on craig and get over here with your craig and cregan are brought in a keg are they in a love triangle with megan or megan megan that's how i would. You bounce the ping pong ball and if it lands in one of the beers,

then your opponent, Keegan or Kegan, has to drink that beer. Right. Basically. So the aim is to not drink beer in this game. Oh, it's a bit of everything, isn't it? It's a drinking game. It's just a bit of fun.

A drinking game with a lot of set up. Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. A lot of merch. I've never known a drinking game. They lot of set-up. Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. A lot of merch. I've never known a drinking game. Oh, they're almost always about words. In your circles, you nerd. This is what the jocks are doing for their drinking games.

I don't know there are any drinking games based purely on hand-eye coordination and fine motor skills. Have you ever had a... No, I don't know anymore. To be honest, I don't know anymore. All right. I also don't know what a hanky-sack is, but let's just move on. Okay. It's not a haunted No, I don't know anymore. To be honest, I don't know anymore. All right. I also don't know what a hacky sack is, but let's just move on. It's not a haunted bag, though it can frighten some people.

Yeah. In the northeast of England, a hacky sack is just a dirty sack. So they don't drink over at the Cregan, the Cregan's Change House. Now, according to my mum, because I just watched Harris Bomberguy's four-hour-long YouTube video about plagiarism, and so I'm citing my sources here. Yes, good one. Kath. Your mum.

According to Mama, a change house is an inn along a drover's road for people who are driving livestock to market. Right. Referenced. Cited. There you go. Nice one, Kath. So, the horrible wife sends the servant girl out to get a drink from the cregan. So the horrible wife sends the servant girl out to get a drink from the Cregan.

But nobody, no one dared to cross the hollow of the white sack once the sun set. Which is a lot of the time in Scotland. Most of the year, the sun is not there. Yeah. So she went off to get presumably Diet Coke from the Cregan. And along the way, she didn't run into the white sack itself. She found the abandoned sack. I think just hung over a fence so he was probably off doing something i don't want to know what we can't even imagine what it's like on the inside it's like a hessian snail so she realized she was in danger but believed that without his lumen without his his shaggy coat, he was basically powerless.

You're a tope. So she swept it up and she put it under her arm and she went on to the change house. She's had it away. Nicked it. You know, he can't do anything until he gets it back. So she got to the change house, asked for a Diet Coke. They said, is Pepsi okay? She was like, oh yeah, fine. And she said, this is really important. I've got to get back to the house in Musedale. So she gave the change house wife, different wife. This is the woman who runs the change house. She gave her the shaggy coat of the white sack.

She gave her the sack, but she didn't give her the sack. You know what I mean? Yeah, not like Lord Sorrel and Sugar. No, not like Lord Sorrel and Lord Sugar. No, more charmingly. I saw him on Room 101 years ago. Comes across really badly. Filmed an interview with him in real life.

Have you? You've met Lord Sir Alan Lord Sugar? He's like a grumpy Teddy Ruxpin. That's like the robot bear. Was he a robot? Because I've also seen a robot of Alan Sugar. You can also buy a robot Alan Sugar, yeah, because he's Amstrad, is he? The Teddy Ruxpin toy, did you ever have one or see one in real life?

I believe I did have one or see one in real life i believe i did have one or saw one in real life wow i think one of the kids at the child minders had one i think when i was a kid but you were just the dream would be to get it and you'd record your own things so you could make teddy ruxpin swear sorry to understand to explain the concept of ruxpin it was a cartoon about storytelling bear but then there was a product that you could buy which was imagine if you will a teddy cum portable hi-fi system a teddy cum portable hi-fi system yes yes a teddy cum portable hi-fi system excuse me i'm having problems with my teddy cum portable system and the little mouth would move basically when it played the tape so it looked like he was telling this you put a story on a tape in there. Do I need to explain the idea of cassettes and stories?

Yeah, I have met someone who didn't know what a cassette player was in my life. And that was quite upsetting. Teddy Rook's been... I can't... Can you remember what we were saying? We were at Lord's Row and Sugar. Lord's Row and Sugar. The woman got the sack.

So she gave her the sack. Yes, that was the joke. A classic tangent. Yes. I didn't think that pun was worth saying, and I'm glad I said it now. Well, unfortunately, it's got to stay in. Now it's got to stay in because of the meaty Alan Sugar riff.

The wife of the change house, of course, said, yeah, of course I'll hang on to the shaggy covering of the white sack to the lumen of the sack barn and the girl made it away home but very soon afterwards the white sack came banging on the door of the change house oh wait a minute this is quite confusing because the name of the creature is also the name of the sack so it's not in the sack now the sackless which in the northeast not in the sack now. The sackless, which in the northeast means stupid. The sackless. What's totally sackless?

The sackless white sack came banging on the door. So we don't know what he looks like. Can you imagine? Can you imagine what a naked one looks like? It's grim. Yes, a bit, and it's grim. Yes. You know it's Miyazaki-ish in there.

Yeah. Definitely. It's very, very pale. Almost sea-free skin. Oh, it's so pale. You know how pale in there. Yeah. Definitely. It's very, very pale. Almost sea-free skin. Oh, he's so pale. You know how pale I am? Yeah. I don't even wear a sack.

You don't live in a sack the whole time. Or roll around in a ball. Then came the white sack, and every blow that he would give to the door, they would think that he would break through the house. So, as various people point out, he does seem quite powerful without his sack, but obviously his priority is getting the sack. And the secondary priority is to get that girl.

The wife waited as long as she could thinking, oh, I wonder if she's back at her house now. But eventually she was awestruck. She was overcome. She was too afraid. And she gave the lumen back to the white sack why do you keep saying lumen lumen is the name for the shaggy covering okay that's the gallic word okay the thing that is the white sack sack right so the girl was almost back in the house but not quite when the white sack starts to chase her down but fortunately the son of the house her lover so the son was there waiting for her to arrive and as soon as he saw her, he tried to grab her, but the white sack was at the door as soon as she, but he was able to

pull her from him. Then the white sack got a hold of the plaid, which was about her. And with the fright that the girl got, she died. The woman was very sorry that she did the like, and she got no rest after that. So that's a sad ending. I should have warned you. It's a sad ending. The girl died, James. I'm not clear which woman feels bad at the end.

Whether it's the woman who didn't hold onto the sack for long enough. Yeah. Or whether it's the mother of the boy who sent her out on that errand

in the first place. One of those women felt very sorry. I don't know which one. How did the girl die? Was she squished like a Mario character? No, she was scared. She was scared. She just got scared to death. How did the girl die? Was she squished like a Mario character? No, she was scared.

She was scared. She just got scared to death? Yeah, she got scared to death, like from one of the ghosts in Mario Kart. Ah. Oh, like a King Boo. Yeah. So that's too sad a story to tell you in isolation. So I'm going to tell you another account of the White Sack, which is mentioned in Law of Scotland, but I think comes originally from Galloway Gossip.

My second tale of the White Sack comes from Galloway Gossip, 1901, by Robert de Bruce Trotter. Which sounds like if Del Boy was pretending to be Scottish. Now, you'd think with a name like Robert de Bruce Trotter, he wouldn't need to come up with a nom de plume, but he has. What? Mrs Maria Trotter. Not working alone, of course.

She always collaborated with her editor, Saxon. Saxon? Also Robert de Bruce Trotter. None of these, these are all the same person. Robert de Bruce Trotter. What a character Robert de Bruce Trotter is. I could just see Maria Trotter and Saxon driving around in an open-top car solving mysteries. Come on, Saxon, get in the car.

Okay, Maria Trotter. Okay, Mrs. Maria Trotter. Now, there's a couple of editions of Galloway Gossip. The version I'm looking for from 1901 is available nowhere online apart from the Dumfries and Galloway place names blog. Thank you, DG Place Names. Unfortunately, it'sries and Galloway place names blog thank you DG place names unfortunately it's written in Galloway dialect so get ready for some me reading phonetic Scots so the accent is going to be bad but I am only 50% to blame for that good and in Galloway gossip

a young man named Pisty right encounters the Sacka-Barn or Sedgeband as genteel folk calls it is he drunk? good question about his name it says very likely

he had a rich name of his own some gate but I never kent what it was and nay more did he

and I'm thinking his granny had nay more notion nor her neighbours however everybody called him

Pistey and it answered well enough. So Pisty was a nickname, which seems to make fun of him in some way. Now, I don't know what it means. Neither did his nan. It doesn't sound good.

His nan doesn't know his real name. Nor his nan's neighbours. And his nan's neighbours don't know his real name. Don't ask his 16 elderly neighbours. Not important. So what happened to poor Pisty is a young chap called Sauners mccormick what yeah it's replete with names james yeah why boy oh boy sauners mccormick challenged him to go to

his granny's cupboard and to steal a bloody pudding thick and long what that's a bloody pudding thick and long like a black pudding you thick and long. Like a black pudding? You and I would call it a black pudding. American listeners, maybe a blood pudding. Olden days Galloway listeners, a bloody pudding. A nice treat. James, do you remember when I said bad news, it's in dialect? Yeah.

That's also a poem. A dialect poem. So they're really, really forcing the rhymes here all right i'm not going to read all of it but i'm going to read most of it so saunas mccormick challenges him to go to his granny's and steal a pudding thick and long has granny that jolloosed fool well the way her puddings a was lost said if he did another steal he'd surely see a pudding's ghost what yes so she knows she knows what the score is granny she knows that the puddings are going missing mccormick's the ringleader pisty is taking all the risks she knows pudding ghosts exist she knows that the puddings have an

immortal soul that survives death yes yes did he rhyme ghost and lost yes ghost and lost you don't you don't know what the galloway accent from those days was no that's true no and neither do i crucially but also hopefully most of the listeners don't loosed the ghost now the granny knows just like you and i know there was no such thing as a puddings ghost right but pasty doesn't know that. Soon after he the lane had crossed, something aside him wrote along, looked mortal like a puddin's ghost. We fricked his mouth, it opened wide. His hair we horror stood on end. He got safe laid.

If it was best to stay or run, he did na can. So that's flayed, like do you remember Flycraw? Mm-hmm. Scarecrow? Oh, right. He got so scared. So as he's walking, something rolls along next to him that looks mortal like a pudding's ghost.

Of course, we know who it is. It's the Seki-ban. Right. It's the Sack-ban. But he mistakes it for the ghost of the black pudding. I thought it was a white dog poo. I thought this was going to be an extended bit about how you don't see them anymore.

You do not see them anymore. At last he ran, but in a wee, the one his hat blew off and lost. He looked at him and there did see close at his heels the pudding's ghost. Trod in a white dog. It's not white dog. Although, to be fair, a white version of a black pudding. There are white bits in black pudding sometimes. Yeah, I don't want to think about it. Your pisty ran with might and mean,

and rare twere his strength and force. But whether he ran fast or slow, the pudding at his heels was close. So he doesn't seem to be able to outrun this thing. It's rolling after him like the ghost of a pudding. What's happening? He's trotting white dog poo, and he's trying to run away from his own shoes.

No, James, it is the sack barn. It's the white sack. It's very scary. Yes, yes. I don't think you're appreciating how terrifying this is for poor Pistey. No, I'm not. He finally makes it home.

Where has Granny? Where's another floor? Thought Pistey had his senses lost, says Granny. It's the sacky barn, cries Pistey. Here's the, says Granny, at the second barn, cries Pistey, here's the pudding's ghost. And when he...

I'm doing it like a proper dramatic reading here. It's very good. Phew. Sorry, I was just struck by my own talent there for a moment. Quite right. And when he got into his bed, Sauners McCormick, he did tell

that when he did a pudding want, he'd better gang and steal't his sale. Oh. Said steal your own bloody pudding. So was McCormack. I nearly got eaten by a bag. But now we know what the Secuban looks like, do we? Or is that still in the bag?

No, it was still in the bag then. That was on a different occasion. Oh, so it's what's inside a white sausage. What's inside of that? We just don't know. Now, so that's a happier ending for the story of the sack barn. Yes, a bit of fun.

I don't want to keep throwing in twists, but I have a small twist. Oh. Twist. Twist. Are you ready? Yep. Twist.

Well, I wanted to do a story from Argyle, from Appin or the surrounding area. But you'll remember the story began at Musedale. Oh, yeah. On the west coast of Kintyre. That's not Argyle. I didn't know that. Well, it isn't.

I'm telling you now it's not. Okay. And so according to Law of Scotland, this story is attached to the Cregan in Argyle. But I just don't think it is because that's as far as i can tell about a hundred miles away from musedale that's like a 48 hour round trip to get a drink from the pub so at night like you don't even need a ghost that would just kill you that's that is enough of a of a dangerous task for the servant girl to have been sent on in the first place. So I can't help but think that because Cregan is a fairly common name, there's several other pubs around the area called Cregan and Cregan.

And there's a place in Northern Ireland called Cregan. Also, the hollow of the White Sack was apparently near Dunachnahath, which is basically in the opposite direction from Musedale to, if you were going to walk 100 miles, like half the length of Kintyre, for a drink, it's in the opposite direction anyway from Musedale. Well. So I'm sorry to let you down, James.

Ah, that's all right. You're telling me that the girl was a really fast runner? Yes, that's what I'm saying, James. She's magic. She went 200 miles in that story. You'll be telling me next there's no such thing as the ghost of a pudding. Well, that's ridiculous. I would never say that.

I respect you too much and I respect puddings too much. And next you'll tell me there's no such thing as white dog poo. There were so many Kreegans, weren't there? There were just too many. Maybe they just thought it was a name for thing for a thing. I feel like you're being a little bit generous there. I am. So are you ready to score it, James?

You're ready to pass judgment on the hollow of the white sack? i think i am my first category for you is names and let me remind you that this episode included robert de bruce trotter aka mrs maria trotter and saxon aka saxon aka saxon who's like maybe he's a dog i think saxon's maybe a dog now but he also drives he's a talented dog that was the dog saying where are we going now, Mrs Maria Trotter? That was the dog saying, where are we going now, Mrs Maria Trotter? Always addresses her in full as Mrs Maria Trotter. Don't forget your sheep, Mrs Maria Trotter. And, of course, Pistey.

Pistey. We don't know what it means, but it doesn't sound good. The Seki Band, the Sack Band, the Sedge Band. The White Sack. The White Sack, not as good. No. Not as good in English. Don't want to forget Cregan. Cregan. Yeah, Cregan and Cregan. Two guys. Cregan and Cregan. No relation.

They look identical. They just get on really well. And Dunachnahath, the Fort in the Kilnfield. What was the newspaper? The Gigglefield Gossip or something is that what i don't think it was a newspaper actually i think it was a like the books written by robert de bruce trotter robert de bruce trotter the galloway guy yeah those are all fantastic names frankly and

the fairy bridge of glenn creeran the fb of gc it's got up it's got to be five yes it has to be it simply has to be even though i really feel like i could have lost a point for white sack sounding rubbish but fine it's kind i kind of like it's rubbishness but then it did get confusing actually because the thing was called the white yeah that is true lived in and wanted back was the white sack where i live that would mean that the seki van was recycling rather than rubbish for the bin men. Right. Okay.

We've got different coloured bags. Oh. And the white one means recycling. It sounds glamorous, but when you realise that we just leave them on the street. No, no bin bag, no bins, no kind of container. We just say, hey foxes, this is for you. This is a little gift from me to you, the foxes. This is a bag of the smell of food. Not the white one, that's recycling. Don is for you. Yeah. This is a little gift from me to you, the foxes. This is a bag of the smell of food.

Not the white one that's recycling. Don't touch that. It's the ghost of the other bin bag. It's the ghost of a bin bag. Watch out, fox. It's a second man. Oh, no, he's going to bounce all over you. Which leads me neatly to the second category, supernatural.

What is the scariest thing? Man's inhumanity to man. Do you keep going? What is the scariest thing um man's inhumanity to man you keep going what's the scariest thing the dream i had where that where my cat shouted at me pretty scary just just maybe one more what's the scariest thing uh thinking that you've not brought your keys correct it's the unknown uh yeah not knowing whether you've got not knowing where your keys are, yeah. Nothing is scarier to humans than the unknown. And what is in the Zeki Ban's bag?

We just don't know. What's in the bag? What's in the bag? I found out recently what the actual translation of cul-de-sac is. And what is the cul-de part of cul-de-sac? It's bottom of. Bottom of the bag. Yeah, the cul-de-sac is and what is the cool part of cul-de-sac it's bottom of bottom of the bag yeah the cul-de-sac is the bottom of the bag not not quite as spooky no not quite as spooky it chases after you it bangs on doors if you see it in front of you you're a goner it's

going to roll on top of you and bounce you flat and so when it scared that poor woman to death after a basically ultra marathon after she maybe maybe she died because of the 200 mile run whilst carrying a plastic bag i feel like i've got quite a definite image of it and it's like a weird lanky little goblin but really really pale white yeah i'm imagining like hands and legs coming out of the corners of the bag, maybe. But what's its face like? Does it even have a face? Oh, whatever's really handsome. Gorgeously handsome in there.

But again, what I'm saying is nothing is scarier than a really handsome man in a bag. Definitely supernatural as a thing. Even it being in a bag. No, just a bag. Because then if you see a bag on its own, just like moving around, it's probably got a Secuban in it. It's quite frightening, actually. Yeah, it's probably a little Secuban. That might be a baby Secuban.

Yes. It was probably a Secuban in American Beauty. It can scare you to death, so it's got to be four. Four, okay, all right. To actual death. Good, all right. On the subject of death, my third category, a thing you said, a bag for death.

A bag for death, yes. It's what it is. It's a bag for death a bag for death yes it's what it is it's a bag that kills you I don't know if I actually said this if it rolls to a stop in front of your house that means someone in that house is going to die I might have forgotten to say that that's in law of Scotland

so it's an omen and it'll just kill you straight up kill you or it's recycling night or it could be recycling yeah I mean don't leap to conclusions yeah that is very much the bag for death and the girl and the woman she stole the bag she ended up dying she did die yeah she did die

i mean the old lady sent her out through the hole of the white sack specifically in the hope that she would die yeah that's pretty cruel it is very cruel and she may or may not have felt guilty about it we don't know yes it is a bag for death. There is nothing else for it. It's all death, right? There's no like, oh, sometimes if it goes a different way, it's good for you. Yeah, or if you leave out a little bowl of milk.

No, this fairy, as far as I can tell, only has nasty incarnations. Yeah, it's five out of five. It's a bag for death. Five out of five for a bag. I'm getting high scores by using categories that you came up with during the episode must make a note of that technique final category taking the pesty i'm not quite sure it works as a category because it actually was pesty taking

the pudding or trying to take the pudding but but i think the the old lady who sent her on a 200 mile walk was kind of taking the pesty she was taking the pesty yeah that is a little bit unreasonable but I think the old lady who sent her on a 200-mile walk was kind of taking the pisty. She was taking the pisty, yeah. That is a little bit unreasonable. That's a big ask. And Secuban was trying to take the pisty. He did try and get him, didn't he?

To death. And he tried to take her plaid, the girl's plaid. He grabbed a hold of it. And, yeah, he was trying to take the sausage, which is a bit cheeky. That is quite cheeky, yeah. And I think with the names mrs maria trotter and her editor saxon i think robert de bruce trotter was taking the pistil

a little a little bit yes a little bit oh man you've you've painted me into a corner of score have i a score corner and it's gotta be can't believe i painted you into a scorner it's a corner of five is it they are everyone is. There's no one who isn't. Congratulations. Thank you. I'm just stunned. I wasn't expecting it to go so well. It was a good story well told. Well thank you. Thank you very much. I've never heard of a Secchi barn before. No but now I'm going to think about it quite a lot because I often see plastic bags. Be safe out there. Remember if you you see it behind you, run. And if you see it in front of you, it's too late. It's too late. You're gone. You're a goner. You're gonna be flat.

I think I'm gonna give my bag of bags a second look tonight. You know the one under the sink? It only takes one bad apple. It only takes one evil bag. They're like gremlins, but it's leaving receipts in them from shopping. Oh. Oh no no i'm in big trouble

i i always leave the receipt in there as like a favor to myself it's like oh in case i want to know what i bought six months ago just a little bit of filing for me i'll just pop that in there i could easily scrumple it up or throw it away or do something with it but i'll just leave it in the bag for later i might get really bored might be bored on a bus oh look a bus was weak on in march so james will you ever look at a bag the same way again i will i will keep an eye a close eye on the bags i think you'll look askance at a bag from now definitely totes they're another type of bag very good wordplay there well done all right thank you very much so james i've heard that um networking with the fans online is your bag it is my bag which is now a bit scary i was

trying i was trying to set you up to plug the patreon slash discord that's where the law folk hang out if you sign up at patreon.com forward slash lawmenpod. You can join the law folk in chatting about things and stuff. Oh, and you get bonus episodes. Probably be some good Back to the Future anecdotes in this week's bonus episode. I don't know about good. There will be Back to the Future anecdotes. Yes. If that doesn't sell it, we might have to think of a different way of selling it.

I'm watching some of the TikTok videos. A lot of them don't know how basic storytelling... Oh! I wouldn't want to be a Gen Z-er right now. No, because of everything to do with the world. Yeah. Because of climate change. Were you puffing on a little pipe there, James?

Were you smoking an old man's pipe? Yeah, I was a little... I borrowed it off 16 old men who were irrelevant.