Loremen Podcast - S5 Ep33: Loremen S5Ep33 - Bamburgh Castle and The Laidly Worm

Episode Date: May 23, 2024

Welcome to Bamburgh Castle! Make yourself at home, especially if you're name's Lancelot du Lac. Don't mind the enormous venom-spitting toad. There's a funny story behind that, actually. It's the Laidly Worm of Spindleston Heugh... The boys visit Bamburgh, possibly England's most dramatic castle, rising up from the waves on a volcanic dolerite outcrop. And the legends surrounding the ancient Northumbrian settlement are no less dramatic. We're talking phoney ballads, wicked stepmothers, loathsome dragons and the mountain bard Drunken Frasier. Sorry, Duncan Frasier. Plus, a cameo from legendary northern car dealership, Reg Vardy. Join us for another Loremen Live in Oxford on 25th May: https://oldfirestation.org.uk/whats-on/loremen-podccast/ This episode was edited by Joseph Burrows - Audio Editor. LoreBoys nether say die! Support the Loremen here (and get stuff): patreon.com/loremenpod ko-fi.com/loremen Check the sweet, sweet merch here... https://www.teepublic.com/stores/loremen-podcast?ref_id=24631 @loremenpod youtube.com/loremenpodcast www.instagram.com/loremenpod www.facebook.com/loremenpod

Welcome to Lawmen, a podcast about local legends and obscure curiosities from days of yore. I'm Alistair Beckett-King. And I'm James Shakeshaft. And James Shakeshaft, are you ready for a story that's got it all? Well, wait a minute, what are all the things it's got? Well, it's got a dragon. Good. A knight.

Oh. It's got a castle. Ah. It's got an evil stepmother. Ooh. It's got some funny names. Brilliant. Yeah, get it in my ears.

Well then, come with me to Northumberland so I can tell you a few of the tales of Bambra Castle and the Ladley Worm. Ever so Laidley. This worm is Laidley. Well, James, how are you? I'm very good. I was just drinking the water.

You caught me. You were drinking water. I came in too steep. I came in too hard. I came in too hard. I came in too fast. Are you okay? You caught me hydrating. James, how are you?

Hydrated, I hope? Yes, I was dehydrated. Then I rehydrated and now I am hydrated. You're the correct amount of drated. Great. I am a baby bear amount of hydrated, which is just right. Not too parched like a daddy bear, not doing a wee like a mummy bear.

I've got a classic fairy tale for you, James. Oh yeah, really? Is it about breaking and entering? It's not. Does it romanticise breaking and entering? It's not, but it has. It has almost been on the podcast before. Really?

Yes, the title for my story for you today has come up because it's very eye catching and i can't remember when but i'm sure one of us has been leafing through a book and has gone whoa the laidly worm of spindleston huff and then and then moved on to something else but that title the laidly worm of spindleston huff, it's an eye-catcher, isn't it? Now, you may not know what Ladely means. You might not know what a Huff is. No.

Don't worry, James. It's coming. I can guess what a worm... Well, I know what a worm is. You know what a worm is. Spindly? Was it Spindly Huff? Spindlestone.

Spindlestone. Spindlestone. Yeah, you might not know what that is. It could be Spindlestone, but I think it's Spindlestone. Spindlestone. It is a thin stone. So, yes, you're way ahead of the game there. Spindleston. Yeah, you might not know what that is. It could be spindleston, but I think it's spindlestone. Spindlestone. It is a thin stone. So yes, you're way ahead of the game there. Like a spindle.

You now, James, are going to be moving from your pre-hyuf to your post-hyuf era. Oh, wow. During which you know what a hyuf is. Am I like the baby bear of knowing what a hyuf is? No. Am I the mummy bear? I'm the daddy bear of knowing what a hyuf is? By the end of this,

you're going to have the perfect amount of knowledge of what it is, which is that you'll know. The mummy bear knows too much. Isn't it the truth? Let me take you to Bamburgh Castle in Northumberland, which I think is a really underrated castle. Have you ever seen it, James? No, I've heard of Bamburg Castle, though, I reckon.

Well, I'm about to paint a word picture, but I actually think if you can, you should Google a picture of it just so you can see it, because it's a good old castle. A lot of your northern and your Scottish castles are a bit like a breeze block stood on their end. It's kind of a bit, you know, a bit of dumpus. But Bamburg Castle is really terrific. Ooh.

This is the sound of a man seeing Bamburg Castle for the first time. Oh, it's on a beach. Yeah. Oh, it's got a beach. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's got a beachy plain, and then it rises up from the plain on a massive volcanic rock. Obviously, it's been built and rebuilt many times over the years.

But I'm going to start with a bit of history for you. But I swear later on there will be a dragon. Oh, thank goodness. Is that all right? So if you eat all your facts, you can have a little bit of spooky later? That's a good deal. Right. Okay, good.

In his memoir of James Radcliffe, the Earl of Derwentwater, William Sidney Gibson described Bambra Castle thusly. The fortress of Bambra is situated towards the northeastern extremity of the Northumbrian coast, and its broad towers and massive ramparts which seem to defy the hand of time and the wings of the tempest crown alofty. Sorry, I'm sure that should be winds of the tempest, but it says wings. Yeah, I guess because it's the hands of time. Winds of a tempest. The wings of a tempest.

Winds makes way more sense. Well, I'm not correcting it now because I want to register my confusion there. I'm putting a little sick in brackets to suggest that I think that's a typo. As I'm sure you and the listener remember, the massive ramparts seem to defy the hands of time and the wings and or winds of the tempest. And also they crown a lofty mass of basaltic rock which rises precipitously from the wild but comparatively

level shore. And look in isolated grandeur over the wide and restless waters of the northern sea. To the Romans this picturesque eminence must have seemed the appointed site for a temple of the winds not wings you'll notice but winds and bambra castle is said to have originated in one of the castella built by agricola on his third campaign but in later time yet 1300 years ago it became the citadel of a saxon monarch and in the very dawn of christ of Christianity in Northumberland was dignified as the pharaohs from which the light of the gospel, cherished by a regal convert, first irradiated her dark valleys and uncultivated hills. Then, as now, the ruled imperious waves were surging continually at its rocky base, but in that mighty wall of volcanic masonry, nature upraised an enduring barrier to their power and decreed that the proud billows should be forever stayed

at the foot of St. Oswald's adamantine throne. What's that? Isn't that what Wolverine's made out of? Yes, it is, I think. Yes, he's made of adamantium. That's the same thing. It's made of that metal, that special metal that goes goes that's i thought it was a made-up metal all i'll say having read that through a few times is if i were the earl of derwent water i would be a bit annoyed about how little i appear

in my own memoir um isn't this meant to be like a biography of me sounds like you're a bit more interested in this rock actually yeah someone likes the precipitous rocks. It's a lovely description. It's not entirely accurate, I think. The rock is volcanic dolerite, not basalt. I'm not a geologist, James. I think they're different. If they aren't, sick.

Just put a little sick there so everyone knows that I made a mistake. And the Banbury Research Project, which is a long-running archaeological dig at the site, they say that it was occupied... Sounds like you've had an archaeological dig there. What? Do you think I'm having a go at the... You say, I think you got the type of rock wrong there, mate. I think the Bamburgh Research Project sounds like a prog rocker group but um they're not they i've i've met at least one of them and he was an archaeologist they say on their

on their blog it was occupied as a fortress from prehistoric times as our earliest radiocarbon date suggests construction activity and occupation from the late bronze age 10th century bc and just to i think to illustrate why you're doing that accent it's because most of your and i exposure to archaeologists is from time team it is from time team there was one guy with really good mutton i think i knew someone who's related of course you know someone who's related you're probably related look at him giant hulking archaeologist of a man. Of course you're related to him. We weren't having an archaeological dig, is what I'm saying.

We were representing a real person. Yep, that's just a bad impression of a real person. So, Bamber is a pretty big deal. And the place is named after Queen Beba. Yeah, Beba. Oh, yeah. Queen Beba. B-E-. Oh, yeah. Queen Bebe.

B-E-B-B-A. Bebe. And there's a lot of names coming up, so brace yourself. But I have to do this in order that we can get to Queen Bebe. So the original castle there is supposed to have been built by King Ida, the 6th century king of Benicia. And according to Historia Brittonum, his grandson was... Sorry, the names here are so hard.

His grandson was Eidferred Flessors, also known as Aethelfrith the Twister. Ooh! A.K.A. Alan Kaplunk, as I like to think of him. That third one wasn't real, but Aethelfrith the Twister was. And Aethelfrith, what we now call Bambra, to his wife Bebe, Queen Bebe, and it became a Bebenberg. You're in Bebe's town now, Bebe. This is Bebe's town. You're in Bebenberg.

Forget it, Bebe. It's Bebe town. It's Bebe town. In fact, of course, it wasn't called Bebbanburg before that. It was the fort town of Dingwardy, which I can't not pronounce. Well, I was about to say, I want to pronounce that to the tune of Regvardy. But then it occurred to me that nobody who doesn't live in the northeast of England will know what the tune of Regvardy is. No. What's the tune of Regvardy?

It's a car dealership in the northeast. I don't think it even is anymore. I Googled it and I don't think it exists anymore. But if you're my age and you're from the North East, you know it's Reg Vardy, Dinkwady. Now, that's not doing anything for you, James, but the people in County Durham are going to be like, oh, yeah, they're going to be lighting lighters

and doing that sort of clicking their fingers and stuff. He's really nailed that Reg Vardy jingle noise. Just so you know, it's been taken over by his son, Peter Vardy, which annoyingly doesn't scan. No! That's got two syllables. Pete Vardy was right there. Pete Vardy.

What are you thinking, Peter? So I didn't just say that so I could sing the Reg Vardy song, which we now all know. I said that because the name Din Gwardy links to the next thing I'm going to tell you. Let's get a little bit mystical. Okay. I'm not even going to go into the ghosts of Bambra.

We've got a pink lady, James, which is an apple. I was hoping to maybe find several other funny apples in the story, like maybe a Braeburn or a Jazz, but there aren't any. There's just a pink lady. There is a Green Jane and there's a witch as well. But forget that. Those small fry spooks, we don't have time for them, James. Green Jane might have been Granny Smith before she got old.

She could have. Yes, that could have been the maiden name of Granny Smith. Yeah. I've got an A-lister moseying towards the podcast right now. Oh, yeah. According to Sir Thomas Mallory's Mort d'Arthur, Bamburg Castle might be none other than Joyous Guard, the legendary castle of Lancelot Dulac.

Ooh. Joyous Guard was originally called Dolorous Guard. And I think people think that Din Gwardadi and Dolorous Guard sound a bit similar. Right. And that might be the basis for it. I don't know. I don't know. I'm not saying that's true.

I'm just putting that out there. Dolorous Guard-y. Not right. Anyway, it's very much a Peter Vardy. You're in a Peter Vardy situation there. Come on, Peter. You've made me angry again, James. I forgot about this.

I just started thinking about something else. Doloris Guard was an enchanted castle guarded by, objectively, too many knights, including a copper knight who is either a guy in a copper suit or some kind of enchanted automaton. I'm honestly not clear. Or a policeman?

Or like a copper. Yeah, he's a copper. Enter a mysterious figure known as the White Knight. White Knight. We don't know who this guy is. Is it Lancelot? I don't know. Shut up.

He's a mysterious character called the White Knight. He was raised by the Lady of the Lake, but even he doesn't know who he really is. He doesn't even know his own name. What? But when he sees a damsel inside Dolorous Guard, he knows what he has to do. He knows what he's going to do, right.

He's going to rescue that damsel? Yeah. Actually, he loses interest in rescuing her as the story goes on, but I think initially he's trying to rescue her. And then basically over a series of days, he does a series of basically boss fights through various doors and areas of the castle, fighting numerous knights.

And they keep sort of like princesses in another castle in him. And he has to keep coming back the next day. Until eventually, after he's fought way too many of them, he shatters the figure of the copper knight and lifts the enchantment on the castle. And the people who live in the castle are very happy and they welcome him in to the cemetery. Oh.

James, that's a good thing in this story. That's a good thing. Okay. Because they're thrilled that the enchantment has been lifted and they want to show the White Knight his own grave. Again, a good thing in the context of this story. It'll all make sense when I quote from Lucy Allen Patton's translation of Sir Lancelot of the Lake.

And in the midst of the cemetery, there was a great slab of metal, marvelously wrought of gold and enamel and stones, and there were letters written that said, This slab will ne'er be raised by hand or strength of man, save only by him that will conquer this dolorous castle, and his name is written beneath. Of course, the White Knight had no difficulty raising up the slab, and he read the

words, here will lie Lancelot of the Lake, the son of King Barn of Benoich. And then he put the slab down and full well he knew that it was his own name that he had read. So that is how Lancelot Dulac found out who he was. So was he dead? Was he a ghost? He wasn't dead. It was one of those pre-graves where they write who's going to be in the grave there in advance. Like a placeholder grave. Yes, absolutely. Yeah. Like one of those little cards at a wedding that tells you where to sit.

So I thought you meant like a save the date thing that you give out before you've got the date of the red, the proper date. Before you do the proper invite, you do like a pre-invite. They don't do those for funerals. No. Save the date. It would, yeah. It's alarming, isn't it? It would seem in poor taste.

People would try to intervene in some way. Yeah. If you're planning a murder, don't do a save the date card for the funeral. It's a very obvious way of tipping your hand, yeah. So that's the story of how the White Knight learned that he was Lancelot Duloc and landed a sweet bachelor pad, which he renamed Joyous Guard rather than Dolorous Guard. Right.

Could that be Bambara? We just don't know, James. But Thomas Mallory thinks maybe. Good. Which brings me on to the story I wish to tell you. The Ladely Worm of Spindleston Huff. But Thomas Mallory thinks maybe. Which brings me on to the story I wish to tell you. The Laidley Worm of Spindleston Huff. Oh yes, the Laidley Worm of Spindleston Huff.

Let's get our huff on. So Laidley is a Northumbrian, Northern word meaning loathsome. Worm, of course, means dragon, as we know. So the loathsome dragon of Spindleston, which is another area of volcanic rocks near Bamburgh, where there's sort of a cliff as well as a pillar of volcanic stone. And a huff is exactly that. It's a cliff, especially an overhanging cliff. Now I'm saying huff because I think that's the Northeastern pronunciation of it. It's spelt

H-E-U-G-H. But it's also a Scots word where it would be hyuff. But I think hyuff or yuff is more correct for Northumbria. I would probably say hey-you. Hey-you. Hey-you. Hyuh. Hyuh. Hyuh.

We're moving back in the direction of sick, I think. Yes. I mean, it's spelt exactly like the noise of someone trying not to be sick. So in a ballad supposedly written in 1270 by the mountain bard Duncan Fraser, I keep wanting to say drunken Fraser, but it's Duncan Fraser. Those tossed salad and scrambled eggs.

You've absolutely wrecked those eggs, Fraser. Those tossed salad and scrambled eggs. You've absolutely wrecked those eggs, Fraser. You've smashed up that ugly vase. It was supposedly written by Duncan Fraser and discovered in manuscript form by the Reverend Robert Lambert of Norham. But according to law of the land, nobody believes that. It's almost certainly a fake

written by the Reverend himself and first published in 1778. Oh. Imagine a story on our podcast not really being completely true. Oh, imagine. There's another cracking version of the story in Joseph Jacob's English Fairy Tales, and Laura the Land points out that it's like a localised

Northeastern version of the ballad of Welsh hero Kemp Owen. Ah. I'm not going to go into Kemp Owen. I'm going to stick with the Ladyly Woman of Smiddleston. Thank you very much. The characters are the king, possibly King Ida himself. I don't know. It's not clear.

His children, Margaret and Childy Wind. What? Child Rewind? It's a bit like Tony and Ridley Scott where one of them has a normal name and the other one has a name that's a little bit fruity

childy wind and they're from the northeast childy wind that's wind w-y-n-d I think it's pronounced wind

it is the it is the root of the word wind but also the root of wend like go like to wend your way yeah

in Scotland and in parts of the northeast a wind is like a little alleyway yes I've seen yeah in Edinburgh I think of wend, like go. Like to wend your way, yeah. And in Scotland and in parts of the North East, a wind is like a little alleyway. Yes, I've seen, yeah, in Edinburgh, I think. Yes, you'll have seen that in Edinburgh. So childy wind is a wanderer. So I'm going to go with wind because that's the modern Scottish pronunciation of... So apart from the king and his two children, there is naturally an evil stepmother. We are in proper fairy tale country now. The story begins with Margaret, lonely in her bower. And I don't really know what a bower is,

but I do know that princesses used to spend a lot of time there. I'm imagining knotted trees. I'm just imagining like some curtains hung over a bed and some fairy lights. Are you talking about like emo teenagers? Yeah. Or are you talking about princesses from yeah he's talking about princesses from but a bit it's the crossover well if if you know what a bower is don't bother lucky writing in i'll just look it up myself i think it's the tree thing that you get a you get a bow of a tree don't

you like bow yeah all right i'm looking it up now bower what is a bower a shelter as in a garden made with tree boughs or vines twisted together. An arbour. People also ask, what do you mean by bower? Don't let the AI helper help you, James. Well, it also says, what's a lady's bower? And it's, according to dictionary.com, it's a lady's boudoir in a medieval castle. A boudoir? Oh, twist. So the story starts with Margaret lonely in her bower.

Picture it however you want. Her brother, Charlie Wynde, is away overseas on some kind of epic lads holiday with 33 of his closest bros. And her father too has sailed away to fetch himself a new queen. Now, when he returns with his new wife, Margaret is nothing but polite to her. Very, very nice. Super welcoming. Good. Doesn't put a foot wrong. It's a potentially tense situation, isn't it?

And then one of the new queen's attendants really puts his foot in it. He's struck by Princess Margaret's beauty. And he says, this princess of the North surpasses all of female kind in beauty and in worth. And it's that word all, James. Really gets the Queen's back up. Yeah.

Would have sounded weird if he said most, though. Oh, I can't put into words how annoyed she is. She gets very magic mirror on the wall. Oh, no. On his and everyone else's ass. He was the magic mirror in this scenario. He was the magic mirror in this situation. He was just telling the truth.

Princess Margaret was a hottie, but the queen, her stepmother, is not happy. And according to the ballad, the envious queen replied at last you might have accepted me meaning saying that she was the most beautiful except for me yeah present company accepted yeah exactly something like that i like the implication that there was just a really long silence after he said it the envious queen repliedas, you might have accepted me. In a few hours, I will her bring down to a low degree.

I will her liken to a ladely worm that warps about the stone, and not till childy wind comes back shall she again be won. Won. Oh, it's one of them rhymes, is it? So she's cursed poor Margaret, but she's also made the classic mistake of putting the way to break the curse in the curse. Yeah, silly.

Joseph Jacobs gives an alternative version of that enchantment. I weird ye to be a ladely worm, and borrowed shall ye never be, until child wind, the king's own son, comes to the huff and thrice kiss thee, until the world comes to an end, borrow ed, shall ye never be. Now that's really confusing.

I had to look up the archaic sense of borrowed. It seems to mean in that case freed as if from prison. I think you could borrow someone from prison, meaning get them out of prison or borrow someone from captivity. Right. In the same way that one in the previous one means rescued or transformed back into a person. Like when at school a kid would say,

can borrow us your rubber, you'd hand it over. Yes, not like that, but yes. So Margaret tries to laugh the curse off at first because it doesn't take effect immediately. She tries to say, I think you mean lend. When I was a kid, I remember adults saying that if someone picks on you, if a bully picks on you, you should try and sort of laugh along with their joke to show that it's not upsetting you or affecting you. But from my experience in school, if you do that, you look nuts. You look unhinged.

So just a tip for the kids, don't do that. So she laughs, it's a mistake, because that very night she transforms into a loathsome dragon,

a ladely worm. And she drags herself off to Spindleston Huff to either coil around a pillar of rock and or fold herself up in a cave.

But in essence, wait for her brother to come and kiss her? That's right. Childly Wind is her full brother. Yeah. And he's got to kiss her three times. He's got to kiss her three times. Yeah. There's no suggestion of any escalation there, James.

I think three times is too many times to kiss a sibling. Look, I also am very uptight about that sort of thing. I agree with you. But hey, things were different in those days. They were royalty after all. And kissing is not a particularly pleasing prospect because she has quite bad breath. For seven miles east and seven miles west

and seven miles north and south, no blade of grass or corn could grow. So venomous was her mouth oh i suppose she can't hold a toothbrush though if she's now a serpent worm they did keep her in check by feeding her the milk of seven cows every day they would pour the milk into a big stone trough and she would drink it before going to sleep which frankly sounds adorable but that might explain some of the breath. It was fairly milky.

Yeah, very, very milky breath. There's a bit of the lantern worm here as well. Lots of very big, keen on milk. Yeah. Very milky dragons in the northeast. It is the land of the milk dragon. Not like the meat dragons of the southwest. Not to be confused with the meat dragon, no.

I mean, if there is a third kosher dragon yeah then that's going to cause issues you'd have to keep those on separate shelves in your fridge anyway it's just a question of hygiene word went east and word went west and over the sea did go the child of wind got wit to it which filled his heart with woe. So, childy wind, child wind, here's the story of the worm, and his childy senses a tingle. Yeah. They tell him that somehow his sister is mixed up in all of this and she's in trouble.

So he and his 33 pals, quick as a flash, build a ship. Oh. That being, at this time, whenever this is, the easiest way to get home, they build a ship out of rowan wood and set sail for the North Country. Well done, lads.

And there's a nice descriptive writing from the ballad here. They went on board the wind with speed, blew them along the deep. At length they spied an huge square tower on a rock high and steep. The sea was smooth,

the weather clear when they approached Naya. King Ida's castle they knew well and the banks of Bambrashire. Oh, nice. So I think this is why some people think that the king in the story is King Ida. But Ida built that castle, so it would be King Ida's castle, whether or not their father was King Ida.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, you know, I don't know. Like, it'll always be Reg Vardy motors to you. You can't, yeah, come know, I don't know. Like it'll always be Reg Vardy motors to you. You can't. Yeah, come on, Peter. You're fooling yourself, Peter. It's Reg Vardy.

Smash cut to the Queen's bower. Now, I don't know if this is the same bower and she's moved in or if it's a separate multi-bower domicile. I don't know. She peers out the window and she sees the ship coming. She quickly sends a flock of witches to attack the ship. Oh, a flock. A flock. Is that the term, the collective term?

I think that's the word I've used. Let me check the ballad. Oh, it's a coven. It's got to be a coven. Of course it's got to be a coven. Sorry, everyone who was screaming at their MP3 players. It's a coven. You would have sounded weird on the bus.

It's Peter Vardy now, they shout. So she sent a fleet, a coven of witches and hags. James, I don't need to tell you, I certainly don't need to tell the listenership of the Lawmen podcast. Witches have no power over Rowan Wood. You've embarrassed yourself there, Your Highness. So the witches are easily repelled. Then she sends a boat of soldiers

to try and stop them from landing and Child, DeWine and his pals repel them as well, using, I think, the more conventional means of just poking them into the sea and that sort of thing. Eventually, our hero makes land

at Budal, west of Bamburgh. No idea if it's pronounced that, not going to check. And they hie themselves to Spindleston Huff, where Childy Wind faces the ladly worm in all its noxious hideousness. And I just know you're not going to go with me on this bit, James, but he draws his sword, which seems to be, as far as I can understand this, as wide as a berry.

I'm just saying, this is what the ballad says. And now he drew his berry broad sword. Not very broad. No. Is this a typo like the old wind wing thing though? I don't think it's a typo. I've seen it in several versions and they all say berry broad. It's hyphenated. I think his sword is the width of a berry. Sick. But berries berries there's a variety of berry widths there is there is a banana is technically a berry i stopped shouting that listener i can hear you a banana is technically or is it a herb oh stop shouting that other

listener it's a berry it's a berry is it a berry it's a berry calm down so technically that sword could be the width of a of a banana right which is kind of sword width if you're a child if you're a child if you're a child wind if you're a child

I think he is an adult man if not he should not have been going on holiday with 33 blokes and now he drew his very broad sword and laid it on her head and swore if she did harm to him

then he would strike her dead but the princess replies oh quit thy sword very broad sword, and laid it on her head and swore if she did harm to him, then he would strike her dead. But the princess replies, Oh, quit thy sword and bend thy bow and give me kisses three, for though I am a poisonous worm, no hurt I'll do to thee. She doesn't say, for instance, I'm your sister transformed into a worm. There's a reason for this. Does no one think to mention the story of what happened with that suitor? Not suitor, you know, the butler or whatever it was.

Yeah, she doesn't explain any of that. So I imagine all of his 33 friends being like, kiss, kiss, kiss, kiss. You know, he's still a little bit drunk from the bender. They're basically still on a lad's holiday. Yeah, that boat they were Yeah, it hasn't really... That boat they were on was one of those big banana boats. Oh, is it as wide as a sword?

A sword-width boat, yeah. So he kisses the dragon. This is how Joseph Jacobs has it. Then Child Wind went up to the ladly worm and kissed it once, but no change came over it. Then Child Wind kissed it once more, but yet no change came over it. For a third time he kissed the loathsome thing, and with a hiss and roar, the ladly worm reared back, and before Childwine stood his sister

Margaret. Completely naked, but don't think about that. But to be clear, I'm not adding that. It is canon that she was naked. Right. think about that. But to be clear, I'm not adding that. It is canon that she was naked. Right. So he quickly wraps her in his mantle, in his cloak, and takes her back to Bambra. But the curse rebounds on the witch. Oh. It striketh the evil stepmother. So when Childly Wind and Princess Mags return to the castle, the queen herself is transformed into a ladely

toad which was according to law of the land as big as a clock and hen a clock and hen as big as a clock and hen towards as big as a clock and hen it's uh is that how hens swear hens are constantly being censored that noise is just like a bleep so that's the end of the story the ballad ends roughly like this now on the sand near ida's tower she crawls a loathsome toad and venom spits on every maid she meets upon her road the virgins all of bambra town will swear that they have seen this spiteful toad of monstrous size whilst walking they have been. All folk believe within the Shire this story to be true, and they all run to Spindleston,

the cave and trough to view. And that's the story of Bamber Castle and the ladly worm of Spindleston. That was really good. That was proper, like, knights and... Proper fairy tales. Yeah, proper fairy tales. Lancelot popping in, doesn't even know it's him.

So it's a cameo that he was surprised by as well. Yeah. He doesn't even know he's in it. Wow. He'd be going into the story like, no spoilers. I don't want to know if there's any big name cameos. Yeah, don't tell me who I am. I want to be surprised.

I want to look up my gravestone. That was great. So James, would you like to pass judgment? Yes. Yes, I would. From your lofty seat there on Bambra Rock. Judge me as I toil in the turbid waters of the North Sea. All right.

My first category for you is, and I'm unusually confident in this one, supernatural. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, did I mention there's a witch's well? Did I say that? You said there was a coven of witches. Oh, sorry.

There is a witch's. There is a witch's. There are several wells on the island, and one of them is the witch's well. Right. Some people have the queen from this story, her toad lives in that well. But I think they're confusing that. I think that witch's well belongs to a different witch. I think that's a different witch.

Different toad. The idea of this big toad just knocking around the beach spitting on women is horrible. It's horrible and weird. It is horrible. And there's the curse.

Yeah, badly thought through curse, really. Stop putting so many caveats in your curse. You want to come up with something impossible to do, like ropes made out of sifted sand. Or just don't. Just don't put the cure. Yep. That's the other option.

Don't say how the curse can be lifted at all. Just be like, yeah, I curse you. Sick. Yeah. And then just do a hand gesture, like a rapper. Yeah, it was good. I kind of thought Lancelot might have been his own ghost and he'd forgotten he'd died.

Oh, you were M. Night Shyamalan. I was absolute. I was on the Shyamalan train. Definitely. I thought, yeah. Logging on to a Shyamalan network. Yes, yes, I was. The letters L-A-N were capitalised there,

just to make sure that hilarious joke works. They knew. Oh, no. Yeah, so that was almost a bit disappointing. When they were like, oh, let's come to the cemetery, white person who doesn't remember who they are. It's still spooky, though, isn't it, James?

Even if it turns out he's Lancelot. I mean, he was raised by the Lady of the Lake in like fairyland. Do you have to wear scuba gear, presumably? I don't know if he was underwater the whole time. Oh, right. Lady of the Lake, that was just her day job kind of thing. I think so.

She puts in a few hours. It's like those sort of fancy boutique shops that are only really open on Saturday afternoons that are just run as someone's hobby. They sell one sword. day afternoons that I just run as someone's hobby. They sell one sword. I think it's very supernatural.

It's literally a fairy story. I think. It is. It is. I think I'm going to go with a five, even though I was disappointed that it turned out Lancelot wasn't his own ghost. Well, you can't have everything, can you? But he was played by Bruce Willis. Oh.

Twist. So my next category is naming and let me remind you this story is called the ladely worm of spindleston it is excellent there were some lovely names in there what was what who was queen bebe i forgot even about queen bebe reg vardy reg vardy um see you're singing it it It's good. Did you hear that, Peter? He doesn't even know what it is, and he's already singing it. That's that. You can't buy that kind of marketing, Peter.

Pete. I hope you listen to this. What was the king that brought his own board game? The king with the board game tie-in? That was Athelfrith the Twister. Athelfrith the Twister. That's just one of about seven names that guy has. Yeah, that was good. Child Wind. It could be Ethelfrith the Twister. Athelfrith the Twister. That's just one of about seven names that guy has. Yeah, that was good.

Child Wind. It could be Ethelfrith. Ethelfrith. It could be Ethelfrith. Is it one of them AEs? It's an AE. I think it's Ethelfrith. Yeah.

Make your mind up. Pick a letter. Child Wind. The only problem I have specifically with child wind and queen baby is that that sounds like like parents have named their kid and they've they're like they've kind of they've given them a name of what they think they look like they haven't really thought it through it's like oh she looks like a baby we'll call her baby it's like they're gonna grow up they've named their baby trevor you don't think of trevor being a baby's name but it's like they what's that going to grow up? They've named their baby Trevor. You don't think of Trevor being a baby's name,

but it's like, they're not going to be a baby forever. They're going to be a grown-up. And Trevor is a perfect example. They're not going to be a baby forever. They're going to be Trevor forever. They will be Trevor forever. The super... Plan ahead.

Name a baby Trevor. Yes, come on. If you're Reg Vardy, Trev Vardy would work, would have worked. So I feel I need to take points away because they named a baby, baby. Beba. Beba. Okay.

All right. All right. So it's only going to be a four. A weird, strict naming system introduced just for this episode. Yep. Absolutely. Okay. My third category for you is when the going gets huff.

It's a noise you make when the going gets hyuff. It's the noise you make when you tense your tummy muscles. Or maybe a noise, like you know the way anime characters sometimes express things with noises, like just sort of a... I've been watching

a lot of old Godzilla films recently and that is one of the noises that a human might make. Yeah. It's the sound of a Japanese man in peril. I'll be honest, I haven't thought this category through beyond the pun.

When the going gets huff, I came up with that, set my pen down, had a little nap. I thought that was good enough. But where, but the, I mean,

the next bit is the huff gets going. And as far as I remember the huff, it wasn't a moving huff. It was very stationary. But the going does get tough though, for lots of people in the story. Being transformed into a dragon is hard. Making a whole ship

and going back to visit your parents is hard. Having an attractive stepdaughter can be hard. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Attractive stepdaughter troubles. That's classic fairy tale troubles. Don't Google that exact phrase. No, no, definitely not. Well, and the poor,

the footman or whatever it was that said it in the first place must have been... Yeah, he doesn't appear in the story again and I do not have high hopes for his career advancement. And pardon the pun,

the footman was kicking himself for saying that. It's all he could do. And things got quite tough for Lancelot. Yes. Because he had to fight tons of knights.

And he'd forgotten who he was. He didn't even know who he was. So I think it's a decent four for that. Oh, okay. All right. Okay. Only because the Hjöf did not get going. It remained.

No, it can't. It's volcanic rock. Yes. I've staked quite a lot of my self-esteem on the final category here. I think I'm going to win you round. My final category, James, is it's Dune from Frank Herbert's Dune. I've not seen Dune 2. I haven't seen Dune 2 either.

You don't need to. It's Dune from Frank Herbert's Dune. It has weirding. Do you remember? The witch did a weirding way, just like they do the weirding way in Dune. Is that the silly walk or is that the voice? It's not the silly walk.

Yeah, you're making it sound more Python-esque than it is in the movie. It's not like John Cleese going across the dunes. It's the magic way of the Bene Gesserit priestesses slash witches. So it's got weirding, James. It's got psychic connections between family members. Yes. It's got names that are hard to pronounce.

Yes. It's got worms. It's got worms. It's got a monarch who becomes a worm, which I think happens in one of the books, but not in the film. Yeah, apparently that happens in a later book. It's got a faint tang of incest about it.

Yeah, the kissy bit, the kissy bit. And of course, the milk must flow. Right. That's the best I can do. She wanted a lot of milk. There's not really any spice. I think that's where this falls down. But no, I'd go with that, yeah.

Yeah, yeah. It's June from Frank Herbert's June. I think it is June from Frank Herbert's June. Oh, thank goodness. So I'm going to go with, I think it's got to be a five. Even the spice thing didn't knock a point. Even the phrase, the milk must flow. Yes, even that didn't knock a point. even the phrase the milk must flow yes

even that didn't knock a point off wow okay alright great oh good that's better

than I was expecting there's a load of sand because it's on a beach yeah and that toad

probably are dunes spitting in people's faces seems like something that would happen in June the Baron spits poison in the face of

the Duke rather spits poison in the face of the Baron spoilers for the first film and the book. I think in part it does, I don't want to take anything away from it, but it does, it helps that I don't really remember

what happened in June and you're telling me all the things that happened in June that are the same as what happened in that story. So, so fine. It's exactly the same as that story. So fine. It's exactly the same as that story. Well, Alistair, that story was just right,

as Goldilocks might say. Like a bear. Yes. Like the things that a baby bear had. Neatly tied up. Mmm. Should we do a quick

record scratch and plug a bunch of stuff? Let's do a record scratch plug a rip a rip right then so it's only a couple of days before but we are going to be

in Oxford performing live on Saturday the 25th of May 2024 2024 if you are hearing this in time

get along I'm sure there'll be room come along only if you are near enough to Oxford that you could realistically make it in time. Yes. Yes. Very good point. Do factor distance in. Very good point. I am proud and delighted and furious to announce my third book. It's the third book

in the Montgomery Bonbon series, and it is called Mystery at the Manor. Is that an exclusive? Is this an exclusive? This is the first time anybody has asked me a question about it, so I guess this is an exclusive to you, yes. Exclusive? Yes. Wow. It's got a diamond, it's got monkeys, it's got murder,

it's got a hedge maze. Oh, brilliant. I feel like that's enough. I don't feel like I have to give you any more. No, those are all wonderful things. That comes out in July. And it's suitable for children aged eight and up, as long as they're very

cool and intelligent. Ah, one day I'll get there. And James, what are you working on? I'm also... Would it be a rival podcast? Desperately trying to hold together a podcast that features ex-law folk Chris Cantrell and Sunil Patel.

Ex? Do you mean they're not coming back? They've jumped ship forever. Oh, wow. Well, you know, I don't know. They're very hard to pin down. They are. They're too big for their boots these days. It's hard enough getting them to record for their own podcast.

But yes, that is called Rural Concerns, and it is available on the internet, which is where all these things are kept. Now, I have been listening to it recently, and I think it's very good. I think also there's a lot of philosophy podcasts out there asking the big questions, like what is the sound of one hand clapping, you know, if a tree falls in the woods? But there are no podcasts asking the question, what is the sound of three men checking their internet connection speed?

I can't believe someone wrote in and they had 500 down and up. That's impossible. Why are they writing in rather than just beaming in directly as a hologram? We did get some more information on that, actually, which is, that's an exclusive of sorts. I've got to say, some of the upload speeds that you describe having had me gasping. It's like, you should be getting more than one megabit.

That's not enough. It's not enough. One isn't enough for a podcast, James. I was shouting at the speaker. It was a Reg Vardy situation. I was like, well, that's not enough. What's going on? But it's good.

And it's also nice to hear that Chris can behave himself. He can do a proper podcast when he wants to. So if you've listened to Chris on this and you think he's some kind of agent of mischief,

some kind of Loki-like figure, it turns out he's doing that on purpose to annoy me. And when you hear him on his own podcast, he's very hardworking. He does have a tender side. Thank you very much, Joe, for editing this episode.

And don't forget to join us on the Patreon at patreon.com forward slash lawmenpod. Lawmenpod. And see you soon. Bye. Bye-bye. Maybe they're the one in the middle between the mum and the dad.

I think so, right? But I think because it's closest to the kid. Oh, right goldilocks goldilocks their tastes sort of mesh mash up because i think it's a story about how we're all the same even if we're bears or humans wow