Love Life with Matthew Hussey - 192: Does Porn Count As Cheating??

Episode Date: November 23, 2022

There may be few more controversial and divisive topics than that of watching porn in relationships.  For some, it’s cheating. For others, it’s a useful way to balance out differences in sexual appetites. For others still, it can be a fun thing for couples to share and explore sexually together. So in this episode, Matt, Stephen, Audrey and Jameson get together to discuss healthy vs unhealthy attitudes to porn, how to communicate your boundaries around porn in a relationship, and what to do when it becomes something that drives you apart.   ---   Email us! You can in touch with the show and give your feedback/thoughts at [e-mail] --- Follow Matt on Insta @thematthewhussey Follow Stephen on Insta @stephenhhussey ---   FREE download: "9 Texts No Man Can Resist" >> http://www.9texts.com FREE download: "5 Compliments to Get Him Addicted to You" >> http://www.SayThisToHim.com

Things make an impression on us in unconscious ways. I drank more old fashions after watching Mad Men than I did beforehand. Porn is no different in that respect. It can influence us. Welcome everybody to the Love Life Podcast with me, Matthew Hussey, Jameson Jordan, Stephen Hussey and Audrey Lestrat. We're all here together on the Love Life Podcast and we are talking about porn today. Giggity. That is such a throwback. That makes me feel old.

He's finally done it. He's been waiting. He's been waiting to throw out a giggity since the beginning of the podcast. Where's that from, Simpson? You've just always done it. Just naturally. That's my syllables. So we put out on my Instagram, at thethew hussey if you haven't been there yet

a question and the question audrey was the question was how do you feel about the person you are dating or your partner watching porn what i'm trying to remember because there was i feel like there was something that inspired this episode what was it I think it's just a very interesting conversation I think it actually was born out of a conversation that you and I had around porn and people's relationships Matthew doing Jameson didn't catch didn't catch him with me jameson you walked in on me naked the other morning oh yeah speaking of porn i wasn't filming walking on him naked well you were in bed and i was walking to the shower i think early in the morning and there's always half a chance that walking through the house naked early in the morning jameson will be here like to keep you guessing and i was walking to the shower and our

bedroom door was open and jameson had come to set up something we were filming that day and he just sort of walked over and i like some sort of naked feral creature, just looked at him in the doorway. And I just gave him like a sort of, I was just standing there naked and I just gave him a sort of knowing nod. It was like, Audrey, you know, those raccoon videos where they're shining a flashlight and they catch a raccoon just kind of standing on its hind legs and just sort of like scampering off. No, but I gave him, I didn't scamper. There's a raccoon pause. I really just looked at him as with the sort of look you can only give someone you've been friends with for a decade.

You know, as if to say, good morning. This is fine. That is what it says. I love how all this happened when I was sleeping. Yeah. And then you never told me about it. Well, that's my point. It wasn't't a big deal i'd actually forgotten exactly but now now he's we've been on tour together it's not it wouldn't be the first time he's walked in on me naked it would not it would not so uh anyway we we asked everyone what they thought about their

partner watching porn i've just realized sorry that you're the only person in this group of people that everybody has seen naked. Yeah. Fun fact. That's quite a fact. Sorry, it hit me and I thought it's important that everybody, you know, realize that. Literally a checked box um so uh we got a lot of interesting responses as you would imagine this is a very charged subject for people so I haven't seen any of the responses I don't know what what our audience said

but Audrey you do you've picked out a bunch of responses for us to discuss today and I I think that what's interesting about this is that it's going to end up being a bigger conversation than just being about porn. I think it speaks to the heart of relationships in general and the kind of issues that we can discover in relationships. But it's also very topical because it's something that is clearly affecting a lot of people out there and people have very different views. So let's get into it. Before we do, I wanted to just read a letter that was sent in from Renee to podcast at matthewhussey.com who said, I listened to your podcast this morning while getting my steps in. Yes, you walk with me weekly. And this morning's words on leaving your narcissist sank deeply within. I am that 52 year old going through a divorce after a seven year relationship with a

covert narcissist that left me personally so frustrated, depressed, but now a more deeply knowing person who saw an opportunity to leave and grow a better version of me. There was a gift in all of this, and I knew if I stayed with him, my life would be worthless. As Audrey said, I now begin the opportunity of finding love, and I know that starts with all sorts of self-love and the best part I get to live my life with purpose the new me now focuses on boundaries and I look for joy in the little things when you look for them joyful things and moments you will find them I hope my fellow podcasters remember it's the little things that can help so much. Signed and with love for all of the jams. And that's from Renee.

So nice, isn't it? That's really nice. And for those of you who want to find our episode on leaving a narcissist or any kind of toxic relationship, that is podcast number 182. And yes, that is a little brag that now we have numbered our podcasts because they're easier to find enough hints that you know eventually we got it done i think some would argue i had to drop one too many let's get into it our main topic for today porn in relationships or with someone you are dating so are you okay with the person you're dating or in a relationship with watching porn? What were these comments? Well, what's really interesting to me is there were 1,640 comments on Instagram within a day.

I'm not sure about the other social media platforms, but it's just had a very divisive um kind of reaction and we also actually put out a poll because we were just interested to find out whether or not people fell on the side of porn is okay and they have no issue with it or whether they felt uncomfortable with it so the results of the poll were actually to me quite shocking and i was really surprised by them. Which one do you think got the most responses? We put out a question that said, are you okay with the person you are dating

or in a relationship with watching porn, yes or no? Well, you've thrown me now. I would have instinctively said most people will say no. But now I'm not sure. what do you think jameson i would have said yesterday yes like people are kind of like with the way you phrase that like okay they'll have seen it or they like will see it on occasion because you didn't phrase this like they regularly watch it or they watch it every day but looking looking at the comments on Instagram, I don't know. Maybe people said no.

I'm kind of torn. Jameson cheated. What about you, Stephen? I know from some experience of when we've talked about this in the past, a lot of people said they do consider it some form of cheating or they don't like it. So I'm going to guess no, they didn't like it. Well, you were right before.

58% of people have said that they don't have a problem with it. And 42% of people say they're not comfortable with it. So you were right, Jameson. Wow. Yeah. I am surprised by that. I was surprised too. I guess I'm just more open-minded than you guys.

And I assume other people are more open-minded too, but I guess we'll get into it. You're more open-minded about more open-minded than you guys and i guess i assume other people are more open-minded too but i guess we'll get into you're more open-minded about how open-minded you think other people are is that the point you're making absolutely and that takes it takes a big open mind that shows it's that shows it's pretty divisive though yeah that's very divisive for sure um well we had some really interesting comments on it. One of the most upvoted comments was a woman who wrote... Yeah, that's what I want context for as we go through this. I want to know, like, which were the ones that got the most votes?

Hmm. Well, this woman wrote, It ruined my marriage. He became sexually violent and desensitized. I personally don't want my future partner binging or willingly lusting after another woman's body. I'll stop there." And somebody wrote underneath that comment saying, it's true, it's ruined so many relationship, porn kills love. That was one of the most upvoted comments,

which I think is, and we're gonna get much deeper than this, but I think you know is and we're going to get much deeper than this but I think it's a point that's really important to address which is I think a worry and a fear if you take jealousy and kind of uncomfortability aside I think the worry for women is is it going to basically make what women really enjoy during sex become so far from what men enjoy doing does that make sense like female pleasure is already something that you know takes a back seat in a lot of sexual relationships and I think when you watch porn it's very much aimed at turning on men not very much at turning on women

and understanding what turns on women is is definitely can't be found in porn so it's sort of like is that going to be over time if you have somebody who consumes a lot of porn is it going to mean that your intimacy is going to be geared in such a way that you're not going to be able to get pleasure out of it and you know what she's saying is it made him sexually violent which i think is quite common and she's also saying that um it desensitized him which i think is another point you know if you're subjecting to a lot of kind of highly sexual and intense pornography you know the real act of sex real life act of sex might just end up feeling very vanilla yes i look, there is obviously so much porn trends towards being either aggressive, demeaning, it trains people to think in a certain way. Look, it's very, this is very complex because on one hand you can say it trains people to think about sex a certain way. are purely capitalist science they just want to make money and they are just creating what people will watch and when a category is popular they spend more money and time creating porn around

that category oh it's just yeah it's the free market but in the same way that facebook and twitter is the free market which is just getting worse and worse and more you know it's the free market but in the same way that facebook and twitter is the free market which is just getting worse and worse and more you know it's a in the same way that you know conspiracy theory and stuff that just outrages you is getting the most attention on those other places as soon as you put an algorithm in charge the the porn algorithm is just going to be upping the game every time the same way those other ones are right because that's i suppose in the same way that you see with newspapers right i have to be i have to as a newspaper try to become more and more scandalous in order to stand out correct and as you say the same is true of facebook you have to keep pushing the boat out

become more and more outrageous or anger people more and more to get those clicks and horn naturally is it's gonna it's like uh in order to do something different you have to keep doing something different um that doesn't naturally explain why stuff that's aggressive towards women wins um but there is clearly something in the male psyche that that is speaking to that that is playing on and does well for that reason so i think that it's fair to say that if in the same way that if you're watching, if you're on Facebook and getting made to be angry all the time, then you're getting angry and unnatural amount of the time. If in porn, you're consistently watching things that dominate women, which some women want, some women are into, and a lot aren't, right? So it's not like that. It's not like I don't want to, I want to separate things, right? Because whatever role play people have within the context of their bedroom is fine with

me. If they're both, if they both, if it excites them, I don't care who dominates who but the the kind of trend of constantly just barraging like bombarding people with stuff that is has no care for the female experience at all but simultaneously makes it look like the woman is having the best time ever that is that creates a very very on the on the worst side aggressive partner but on the even on the more kind of uh what's the word even on the more innocuous side it just creates a very selfish sexual partner which i think is an interesting point because um and i can only speak to how I'm, from what I've seen in the comments and what I know women to feel, and I can't speak for every woman, but I think the kind of the issue that people, women take to porn and to their partners watching porn comes from the fact that, you know, the male orgasm is always overvalued in comparison to the female orgasm meaning you would very imagine having sex with someone and she came and you didn't that is just that just wouldn't happen it just seems like such a strange thing you'd have to somehow make yourself

orgasm after that happens so whereas there are so many times when women don't get to climax during sex and I think that the frustration on to that point particularly I think for women is that it ends up as you say not taking into consideration at all the female experience because it's so heavily geared towards what turns men on and then if you carry that over completely directly into the bedroom you end up having as you say a very one-sided and selfish experience which is already something that women have to fight against i actually feel like there's a different problem i mean that's definitely a problem too but the most visceral problem that i've just noticed is just unrealistic expectation and when you say like

oh what if she doesn't climax it's like well actually the porn you see now is just like what if she doesn't have seven orgasms you know it's just like everything is 30 seconds it's so performative yeah and fake like coincidentally i watched the movie last night don john um when he was he's got a it's joseph-Levitt and Scarlett Johansson. It's a good movie. It's a great little movie. I think it's a directorial debut, actually, Joseph Gordon-Levitt. But he's got a massive porn addiction.

And he admits that he just, you know, pussy's great, it's just not as good as porn. You know? It's like, to him, because he's just not he's not having any real Connection with the person that he's having sex with he's just having Whatever idea that is in his head That the porn the unrealistic expectation of porn is taking up and it just takes them out of reality And I think that's the part that is really Insidious and I probably come into this a little bit more

I feel like at least more open-minded than a lot of these comments because a lot of these comments are just like no it shouldn't like if you ask them if you ask a lot of these people they probably think it should be outlawed or something and it's just not really what i think the case is but i think you have to be really honest with yourself about just what a performance and what a what a piece of phoniness it all is really i got for i mean god help people who kind of start off on their sexual journey as teenagers with all of that because the insecurity that must breed and how much harder it is to navigate a woman than porn suggests it is that you are just going to be able to get someone off that easily um it that that's not a good thing either so in that sense it's not good for anyone's self-esteem well it's causing massive amounts of sexual anxiety it's actually interesting

you say that we had a comment from someone who said, it depends what they're watching and whether they know the difference between real life and porn. Men my age, in brackets, in their 30s, think that what men and women do during porn is completely normal. Romance is dead. That's interesting. I feel like that's not giving men in their 30s an awful lot of credit. I thought she was going to say, like, men in their 30s an awful lot of credit. I thought she was going to say like men in their 30s know the difference.

Yeah. I mean, you know, you fall. Look, I kind of violence at all, and that there is no connection between real life violence and what people see in movies, that to me seems willfully, intellectually dishonest because things do have, things make an impression on us in unconscious ways. I drank more old fashions after watching Mad Men than I did beforehand because you saw John Draper drinking old fashions all the time. Mick Jameson and and i we ate oysters in new york and drank martinis because of an episode of mad men and it's true you took me to

waffle house because of an episode of parts unknown parts unknown that was a misogynist for three years after mad men not true jameson but that's but that's the reality is if, if we weren't influenced by things, then companies wouldn't spend money on advertising. Wouldn't make sense. Companies aren't stupid. They don't flush money down the toilet. So things can have an influence on us and they can build new associations. Porn is no different in that respect. It can influence us, but there's a difference between influence and being like, I don't know the difference. And I think that people who have had long-term relationships, generally, I would argue, know the difference now i do think that it gets in someone's it can take

someone trending down a path of being more and more ignorant of someone else's sexual experience being more and more sexually aggressive um and i also hear what she's saying about desensitization, because I think that's a real thing that is in some ways, I think more, even more likely than someone becoming sexually aggressive. That's not me saying, I don't think people don't become more sexually aggressive through porn. I think a lot of people do, but the desensitization within relationships, I think happens to a lot of people because, or even outside of relationships, because they are just, you can drown yourself in this world of extremes that is very disassociated. It's a very disassociated experience watching porn. You're on the outside of it. You're not connected to anything. It's a very disconnected experience, which is why most people, if they are being self-aware and introspective about it, will say that after they've come through porn,

they feel kind of slightly, it's not like anyone feels better afterwards. Maybe some people do, but most people will say, it's not like my proudest moment after I've done that. I don't then think, what a great way I just spent the last 20 minutes or is that how long it takes 20 minutes that was the funny thing about the movie where

it's like actually just picking the right video that takes a long time but don john once he finds the right video but that's how he wasted his whole you know in a weird way that becomes the kind of metaphor for what it does to people's sex lives. Because the experience of searching on porn is that you're always looking for the perfect thing. You don't even know what the perfect thing is. You're just searching and and they know that and it's like dragging you down this rabbit hole and that rabbit hole and so on and it you know you could be watching a video that you just selected and already searching for a different video and so there's nothing present about it it's this it's like the slot machine as applied to sex

and there's always thinking there's this bigger jackpot there's this other experience and when that carries over into someone's real life their sex can become disassociated it can become disconnected it's hard for someone to have real intimacy in the same way and it's hard to connect to the real experience of it and be present with it because you're used to playing that slot machine it's interesting you compare it to a slot machine we actually had someone um given more of a nuance response to it there is a similarity or a link or even just it's pretty much the same as an addiction right for a lot of people this woman here wrote it's not black and white it depends on

the frequency the type of porn the intimacy if there is an addiction and she said that if you have none of those things it can be a fun thing together to do together or separately or if you do suffer from it being too frequent a wrong type killing your intimacy or if you have an addictive relationship to it she believes it to be very very destructive which is kind of what you had said previously and i just want i'd love um your thoughts on that well firstly what this is i i think that that's a really intelligent and kind of open-minded comment i despite everything we've said, something in me wants to resist when I hear wrong type. Because that feels like a judgment sexually.

But I know what she means. I know what she means. I get it. I get it. There's definitely a type of porn that if you found your partner kind of watching that you'd be like wait this seems horrible that seems horrible there's a scene that actually comes up in the the most recent sally rooney book where she the female character nat finds that the man she's dating who's a nice guy is watching quite like quite violent you know quite violent pornography and they end up having quite an

awkward conversation about it where he's like why are you judging me for what i'm watching and she's like well no you can watch whatever you want it's just you know it makes i don't like the fact that that's something you enjoy and they have an awkward conversation where she's like no you can do what you want but i have a right to have an opinion about it it's very it's very awkward right because people do have private worlds as well where they do have fantasies and we don't expect to be able to judge them but yeah i guess we all have our like idea of what's the line of acceptable unacceptable too weird too out there maybe we think oh my god they're that out there in their imagination i am

nowhere near that level or i do not have those fetishes and so there's also that of just feeling like are we within each other's boundaries but there is a school of thought that sees it if you have if you do it in a measured way it can be some kind of act of self-care in a weird way of kind of like an indulgence it's obviously that's a bit more of a that's not how most people practice it and do it mostly it's just i'm horny i'm gonna do that but there is a school of thought that says maybe it's just playing in the realm of fantasy pleasuring yourself doing something nice for yourself let's yourself. I think that takes us in an interesting direction because there's a comment that I'm seeing here from someone who says it feels like a betrayal.

And the question I was going to ask, which her comment may be the answer to, as far as people's perception, is what's the difference between porn and having a slice of cake because you want to treat yourself or and we know that sugar is bad but we consume sugar especially when we're in that mode of like i'm just having a treat. I'm just doing something for me. We know that having a drink or even a couple too many drinks is another version of that for some people. So there are ways that we kind of indulge. There are ways that we treat ourselves that we wouldn't say are a good thing to

do every single day of the week but but we kind of say to ourselves well screw it it's friday night you know why is porn different do you think that the comment feels like a betrayal is is the reason yeah i i think from reading the comments and and i can actually understand that psychology i don't really feel it myself, but I can completely empathize with that way of thinking. I think it's not nice for women to feel like their partner is watching another woman naked and imagining her. And, you know, sometimes you can be imagining presumably when you're masturbating yourself with that person even though which you and i actually disagree with i i we disagree

there's a whole category isn't there of porn where which is the most popular category i don't know if that's true okay well it's it's a very popular category well it's a category which category i would say i can't wait to hear what category this i think i know what it is point you're saying you're saying all pov right but yeah that's i don't know that that's the most popular category it's one among god knows how many categories but the i i i actually think a lot of porn is not someone watching it, imagining themselves in that. I don't think it goes that, I don't think it's that personal.

Well, I think whether or not they do, I think that, you know, for the same reason that you wouldn't want your partner to go to a strip club and watch a woman strip, why women would have an issue with that and you could understand the psychology i think it's the same sort of thing and i don't know like would how would you feel if i was like watching naked guys all the time would it not bother you i can understand it i really don't know

i'm not saying i can't understand it yeah i'm not saying that i'm not suggesting that for a second i think that's the betrayal i think it's it's a feeling of that's a special connection that you and I share. And sex is something that remains between the two of us. But by watching porn, you're kind of, you're not cheating, but you're basically extending that particular part of something that's sacred between the two of us. And you're extending it out and kind of you know mutualizing it I think that's what people feel you know I I find this the whole thing very fascinating from a number of angles and we're kind of uncovering them one by one is there a world in which porn could be considered a necessary crutch in a relationship where two people's sex drives are very different? And were the person with the higher sex drive to always put their sexual demands on the other person, it would be a nightmare for both of them.

One person would feel constantly just bothered by the other person in times where they just don't feel like it and the other person would feel constantly rejected or let's say they would feel rejected three out of every four times they propose sex is there a world where we say porn is relationship saving there because the times where you know it's a it would be it's a kind of you know we don't want to treat our partner like a blow-up doll, right? In either direction, where it's just, I want this now and it's your job all the time whenever I feel like it. But at the same time, if you're the partner that doesn't feel like it, do you get to say, I don't't feel like it but you're also not allowed to go and experience this without me now i suppose the person in that situation would say no but what i'm arguing is they can go and masturbate but they can't watch porn, which is an interesting argument. And it forces us to say that the,

it forces us to make a distinction that the things you imagine in your head, which may be exactly the same as the porn you're watching, are fine, but represented on a screen, they're not okay. It's interesting. I mean, I think the way you laid that out makes it a very difficult thought experiment, but I think there is, I think practically speaking, it probably makes sense in the real world to do that,

like depending on the trimester of pregnancy or something or whenever there's like some real, yeah, either person's really off their game for some reason and it could help sort of just normalize the situation but i do think that your other point is also really good where it's like well why do you need the porn then if you're that if your sex drive is really naturally that much higher than mine right now then you maybe you don't need the porn you should just try to do it with your with your mind and look we know that there are very real world issues with using porn all the time because the men then or people in general but i i only know

this in relation to men struggle to use their imaginations if they use porn all the time a lot of guys can remember a time where they certainly didn't need to be looking at anything in order to be able to give themselves an orgasm. And that's changed for so many men where it's like, oh, I now can't come without porn. Like I just, you know, that, that is the experience of so many people and and you know i think that that's when you know like ah that's almost when it should be a bit concerning because you're like what's gone like how has this rewired my mind how has this made it so that something that is a very natural urge i now cannot do without the help of this stuff on a screen it's just frequency as well because if you didn't do it often i think it wouldn't affect people's sex

lives so much but often there's a term they call it porn sick like when a guy you know actually gets with a real life woman but he's just too addicted to porn and using it all the time and maybe masturbating a lot where he now can't get so sexually excited from being with a real woman and i think that's that's frequency as much as anything if you did it once a month it probably doesn't have such an effect but it's the fact that it becomes something people do whenever they have anxiety to relieve tension to you're stressed your response like going to the fridge and getting food is oh click up a window of porn and do that you know so i and i think it's the frequency as well that me really hinders the relationships you know it's it's interesting i

think because i think there's no point um they're very interesting arguments there's no point almost saying like it's right or wrong to feel x way about it for women like you know it's right for them it's wrong for them to care about it or not care about it but what's really interesting is what you said you know if it has become an addiction a compulsion something that you don't have control over because you reach for it when you are in a certain state and you use it as a means of stabilizing your nervous system that means that you're no longer in control of your urges in that way and that is I would argue a point where you should have a look at that situation and really ask yourself whether you should carry on doing it

as much as you do and this is I think I do think a lot of people's issue with it is outside of the jealousy and all these different things it's kind of this feeling of of it you know is it going to ruin my relationship or it has changed my relationship and the problem with that which you've talked about before and I actually really want you to touch on it again here but the issue that then goes on is women almost or people really just become so kind of against it. And so many of these comments are, it's disgusting. I would never be with someone who would watch porn. So many very, very kind of opinionated and quite sort of aggressive responses towards it.

And what that does is for someone who is having that compulsion, it puts them in a place where they feel so much shame around it. And they're not able to talk to their partners about the fact that they are having these compulsions. And then that actually ends up having a really negative effect on the emotional intimacy of the relationship.

Well, I think that porn carries a kind of special shame with it from both sides there's you know we we don't and unless we are a you know an alcoholic and we really are insecure about our drinking we don't tend to hide social drinking from the people we love and we we don't but we don't say hey i'm just going off to watch some porn i'll be back but why not well that that's you know and that no but that's my point is that it carries it carries a a stigma with it carries a lot of shame with it and i think that we carry that one it it gets a judgment from other people and two we carry shame about it ourselves because firstly it's intensely private it's like a window into our fantasies the things our sexual desires that's a very private place in our mind and secondly i think that we are with a lot of people are brought up with a sense of sexual shame you know there's a there's a kind

of societal sexual shame that a lot of people carry and then it does get carried into their relationships too because the i you know we're seeing in these comments what would happen if a lot of people in their relationships brought up the fact that they did watch porn or that or or that they have struggled with you know they many people would say they don't want to watch it, but they do and they struggle with that. And so, but try, you know, the, the idea of bringing that up only to be shamed for it and to be seen as you've betrayed me, to be seen as that's disgusting you know i can't believe you watch that stuff you know that that's that's where all the shame comes in and and and the thing that i worry about i suppose the most although and i know you said you don't think it's worth kind of talking about

whether it's right or you know whether women are right or wrong for caring i think it's worth having a wider conversation about kind of just exploring i don't even mean from the point of view of me decide it's not for me to decide what anyone should be jealous about but i think it's worth exploring what our what we've decided constitutes something worth getting jealous about because our our sense of peace and happiness will vary in accordance uh to how many rules we have about what makes us jealous if there are a thousand ways you can get jealous you've just created a thousand ways you can get unhappy and so i know that in my life as i've eased up because i've been a jealous person in my life and i didn't enjoy being a jealous person it it made me very unhappy. There's never a time where being jealous made me happy. Uh, there was a time that there are times where jealousy makes you, um, it can in a, in, in the

right doses can be fun. Right. But, but we're not talking about jealousy as a little sprinkling of something fun and an aphrodisiac. We're talking about jealousy that makes people unhappy. And I've been unhappy plenty in my life because of jealousy. And the more I have eased up in that area, the happier and more peaceful I've become. And so I would love to challenge people and invite them to kind of have an open mind about what they choose to get jealous about, because I think that it can actually bring you a better quality of life in your relationship. And it can even bring you closer to each other. But I think the biggest issue, the thing I'm most afraid of is that people can't talk about this stuff. That the response to this question indicates a difficulty people have

with having the honest conversation. Because if your partner feels that they can tell you those things, then you're creating intimacy with that very conversation because they are letting you into that world. And I'm not, I'm not saying that I'm not saying this from a sexual place. I'm not saying it from a place of, you know, they let you into the world and now you can watch it together and it can be your thing together. That's fine. But I do think that often misses the point. It's not that, like, I think if you can, if your partner likes porn and you can suggest, hey, let's watch it together sometimes or let's use it in sex or whatever. I think that's fun and that's great and awesome.

But it's not necessarily addressing what it is to your partner and what need it's meeting. And porn, like anything else, like overeating, like drinking, like drugs, like gambling, like obsessively going on social media, like being a workaholic. Porn is just another way to rearrange the chemicals in your brain. It is, or I should say manipulate the chemicals in your brain. We give it some kind of special significance, in the same way that we give drugs a special significance. Drugs are especially bad. But we don't say that about workaholics who ignore their children for most of their growing up. Or are never on the radar for their relationship. And completely neglect their partners in ways that become incredibly destructive and even malicious uh or kill themselves by the way in the process or get sick it can that's what i'm saying yeah you

know we don't talk about it with our phones in the same way right we say yeah we should really use our phones less we should really reduce our time, but we don't talk about them in the way that we talk about, Oh, you did drugs. You know, like that has special, especially bad and porn sort of falls into that category. And I,

I just see it all as addiction. The urges that men have are not by decision, right? No, are not by decision right no no 12 year old boy at school in a swimming lesson in speedos wants to get an erection very specific who hurt you it's not the dream no it's not he doesn't choose in that moment to get an erection because this this will help my status no it's only going to get him made fun of so from the age that a boy can get an erection he's having urges at really inconvenient times and wishing they would go away. And that doesn't stop because someone becomes an adult. But what does happen is there is a liquor cabinet for it

that you can go to to address those urges and relieve those urges. And like any version of a liquor cabinet, it can be highly addictive. And by the way, like social media that has had billions of dollars spent on it to make it addictive, porn is going through the same thing it has been engineered to be as addictive as possible they want you to stay on there for as long as possible they have no interest in you getting off or not coming back they have a lot of interest in you getting off as long as you come back oh yeah sorry which is a category also um the and so it's it's something that should be treated with compassion and it's so often treated as this disgusting how dare you how gross what's wrong with you thing that ends up then creating a lot of division in

relationships and by the way it creates secrets because if you can't talk about it you know mr rogers said if it's mentionable it's manageable and porn in so many relationships is unmentionable and because it's unmentionable it's unmanageable and it divides people and it creates secret rooms and secret habits and you know me less as a result or i know you less or we don't build the intimacy that comes from the compassion of non-judgment and instead understanding each other how does it make you feel here's how it makes me feel here's you know and by the way it can even create sexual division because it might we might learn something about our partner from the way they are expressing themselves in that world or the way they're the voice that expression

is finding in the world of porn we might also learn something about our partners i didn't know that was something that excited you i didn't know that was something and it and it may seem like well i could never do that like that's you know i and and in many cases you can't or it's not possible or what you know it's not, or it's beyond the boundaries of your relationship. But there may be some version of it that can find its voice within your relationship more than you even realize. That is within the boundaries of the relationship, but allows someone now to feel even more seen

sexually and excited sexually. So these are some of the thoughts that come to me when I think of this. Well, I'm so glad you mentioned the compassion with it. Because women are super compassionate and really empathetic. But honestly, I think if women really knew about the true urges that men go through constantly and consistently, there'd probably be less judgment in these comments, in this thread. Yeah. And not only are they urges, but think about how lonely we are. Like we're talking about how destructive porn can be in a relationship, but what about all the people that aren't in a relationship and they're just lonely and they need that piece of cake because like steve mentioned it's just

like it's a bit of self-care for them or it's their one little distraction that gives them like it makes them feel normal for a minute again yep and i would just say in that respect really pay attention to the master slave relationship you have with it like it who's who's the master here me or the porn um because there's also an element of of two where you know we talk about people that that are like oh my sex drive's super high and so like my partner can't keep pace but there's also an element too of pornography or eroticism where maybe it's a landscape that's gone dormant and you need to like reawaken it or maybe you want to reawaken it. And in that case, like porn can probably help with that. Like there's a whole landscape to explore there as long as you're on the right side of the master-slave relationship with it, are you kind of learning about what you like from that experience of porn?

Or are you just, now is it a crutch for you? And are you being told what to like? That's where it gets tricky. It's also maybe an opportunity to create more intimacy in your relationship if you come to your partner and say you know I feel like I watch too much porn I want to cut down or I want to cut it out or whatever it is but you know I'm someone who needs to have sex once a day because that is my sex drive that's what it means for me so will you help me do that will you you know if can I basically count on our relationship to almost replace it and you don't have to necessarily say in such kind of clinical

terms but it's also an invitation for your partner to you know step up and go well I do actually want to help you do less of that thing that makes you unhappy. And yeah, of course. And then just the kind of being on a, I'm talking more towards the women who, I'm talking more to the women who are very much saying they would never be with someone who watches porn and have such an issue with it. If the person they were with came to them and said, I actually really want to try

and wean myself off of this thing will you help me it's i don't know it feels like it could be a really nice invitation for intimacy for for some couples who maybe be having less sex because of it right it you know i this is where i feel like i get i don't think this is controversial but it's where some people I saw I can say something that raises some people's hackles but I think it's also an opportunity and an invitation to stop putting so much weight on sex and to start seeing it more through the lens of there are times where we have really connected sex and there are times where I'm just getting you off and that can be fun in its own way and by the way it can be no different from like why is it that if you said to someone i have can you rub my back my back's bothering me right now

why is it that we see could you come and get me off because i just i can't concentrate right now because i'm really horny why is it we see those two things as different in a relationship? I'm not talking about in dating where like no one's trying and walks up to you. It's like, no, but I'm not saying I feel really weird about any time I've rubbed your shoulders now. I am not. I don't want people to confuse this with a situation where someone is just kind of using you and they're not giving you anything and you're just seeing them casually. I'm saying in the context of a relationship where the two of you love each other, you're teammates, you're there for each other, you want each other to be happy.

Why are those two things so different? Because I think a lot of people do find it really hard to, okay, you don't have to say it as crudely as that, but I don't, people do find it hard to articulate that they have that urge right now. And it doesn't need to be this really connected experience with a ton of foreplay and theater. It's just like, this one's just for you. And it's just, you just want to get off right now and that's okay. I'm here for it. I don't need to feel super connected to this moment. It's not about me. I don't need to be super connected to this back rub that I'm giving you. It's not, I'm just not about me.

Your back hurts. I'm going to come give you a back rub. Like, you know what I mean? I feel like people, as soon as the, as soon as sex enters the equation, it feels like it's got to have this special, for a lot of people it's got to have this extra degree of of reverence and and that i think can become a kind of killer because what a guy knows and what anyone knows is that they can go to porn and they can it it demands nothing of them. And that's not, that's a less talked about thing.

And we've not made the argument in any of this conversation so far. And it's a real thing. You can go and watch porn and it asks nothing of you. You can't hurt porn's feelings. You can't. Get rejected by porn. Get rejected by porn get rejected by porn you can't be accused of being selfish by porn because you got off quickly and then got back to work that is a new category on porn hub though

you just get rejected no i actually think there's a that is a category probably i think there's something like that um the that that is almost like some people, it's a way of not bothering their partner. I don't want to bother you. That's what a lot of people feel. And this is a way of not bothering you. And I think if you can, part of having that conversation with your partner is asking yourself, to what extent do I want to be a teammate sexually and saying, sometimes I'm okay with it not being about me at all. Sometimes I'm okay with just getting you off because that's where you're at right now and you have this urge. I'm not saying you have to be that person every hour of the day. I'm just saying that to me is a way of, I don't know. I suppose it is a way of creating intimacy in the relationship, just not in the way that you think.

It's not intimacy through super connected sex. It's intimacy through, wow, I can really be honest with you about my needs and you care about me enough to want to meet those needs. And that shouldn't be a one-sided thing that has to go both ways in a relationship. And you know, if you were asking the same, if you know, if the woman were asking the same thing, then the same should be true the other way around. that to me is is another crucial reason why people end up doing it yeah it's really interesting it's an act of generosity towards your partner i think and i think that um i actually had this conversation with a friend of mine fairly recently and they just didn't they couldn't understand the concept of having sex without the possibility of coming themselves so she was like what why would I do that like I would only do it if I knew that I was gonna

get off too like you know why why should he get off and not me kind of thing and it's uh it's interesting because I think that logic makes sense and in a way why should he if you you know like you could see it as unfair but you know I think understanding your partner's needs and understanding that um you know maybe they do in that moment feel horny and basically want to come, and it's whether or not you want to be a part of that or don't want to be a part of that, and just seeing it as an act of generosity in that moment

and not seeing it as something that you're doing with any agenda. You're just doing it as a, like you say, like the way you would a massage or you would anything else I think that's almost a way to frame it is looking at the relationship as a whole and how much somebody brings you how happy they make you and is it really that unfair and outrageous in that moment to do something that doesn't in any way serve you if it's going to drastically change the way they feel and vice versa you know i don't really i really don't want this to sound like this is male dominated i i i mean this in both directions it's whatever it means to you whatever is the thing that you need in your relationship that may do nothing for

your partner but means something to you those are the things that we should pay attention to in a relationship and this to me is just another one of those things but it's once again to me it's removing in the same way we talked about removing porn from the special category of bad and shameful when it comes to addictions it's removing the sexual need within a relationship from the special category of bad and shameful when it comes to addictions it's removing the sexual need within a relationship from the special category of of reverence and um ceremony that it's so that so often accompanies it that makes it feel like a big fucking deal all the time to a lot of people like uh we i have to really do the thing if i want to have sex i have to really do the thing i have to go through all the motions and and sometimes yeah you yeah you do you absolutely need to do that because you

can't be that you can't only be the other thing in your relationship then you're you're a selfish you know bore because you're never setting the mood you're never creating the moments you're never doing the romance you're never you know creating the atmosphere then you're not serving their needs but the and i know by the way i don't want to suggest for one second that it's always this way around because there are plenty of women who have higher sex drives than the guys they're with and there are plenty of women who would love if their guy just had a quickie with them uh and and just you know jumped into doing something sexual for five minutes or ten minutes or whatever there are plenty of women like that who are with guys who who are not um but you know i i, if this conversation can do anything, I hope

it starts to take away some of the, some of the relationship censorship that goes on around this issue and actually allows people to talk about it. It's hard though, isn't it? Because, you know, the comment about betrayal, it's so much of our egos are wrapped up in it. And not only our egos wrapped up in it, like we're supposed to just sort of be able to satisfy, like, what do you mean they have urges that are outside of me and our sexuality together? But so much of sexuality is, you know, in other parts of life with, oh, check your ego. Or here it's like ego is such a big part of it. Ego is fun in, in the bedroom. You know, it's like, it's all wrapped up in it. And so it's a very, it's probably worth lingering

on just how complicated this is. And I hope people listen to this and they don't think that we're becoming a preachy or whatever about it, because it is just, it's worth talking about it more. And it's worth trying to understand your sexuality a bit more. It's worth talking about it more and it's worth trying to understand your sexuality a bit more. It's worth talking about it with your partner too, but it's also, I also want to hedge a little bit and say, you don't have to have this radical honesty thing with your partner. I don't think. I think when Esther Perel says you can have your own secret garden or whatever, I think there's a lot to that too. Like you don't need to just put all of your sexual stuff on your partner. You can have your little separate

garden i remember there was a moment matt when you're talking to your friend aubrey marcus i think it was on instagram live or something and he was doing he was giving you a little thought experiment about like what if your partner could just read your thoughts wouldn't that be great like the intimacy that would create he said what if everything that you thought you said right like if every thought that came to your mind you were just that you thought you said, right? Like if every thought that came to your mind, you were just honest about and you said to your partner, what do you think?

That is an absolute disaster. Yeah, and I just thought. Yeah, that's what I said. And Aubrey is like, is amazing. And he's all about radical honesty and he's got a beautiful way to describe it. But I was just thinking like, doesn't that just become masturbation at some point?

Like, aren't you just the same person at that point? and isn't there something great about the separateness of a human that you're never going to crack the code completely maybe you shouldn't try to even crack the code completely but yeah it's really interesting you've some kind of saying that what that idea of sort of complete unification with another person is being akin to masturbation i really like that that's really good yeah there's just this is our human experience it's consciousness and it's separate and it's very mysterious and it's complicated i i think the thing that has helped me and certainly in our relationship the thing that's made a big difference to me is really, really feeling safe. And I think safety is a, safety is the, safety is like the antidote to jealousy.

If you really feel safe, I think that you feel jealous about less things and you don't agonize over the same things you used to agonize about when you didn't feel safe. Let us know what your thoughts are on this episode. Email podcast at matthewhussey.com. We would love to hear from you. We always like being able to check in with the feedback from previous episodes. And occasionally in episodes, we'll actually read some of that feedback. So do send us an email. Let us know that you're out there and listening to this. And if you haven't already, go over to our website.

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