Love Life with Matthew Hussey - 214: Choosing The Relationship You Want, Overcoming Jealousy, and Understanding Men/Women (w/ Candice Horbacz)

Episode Date: May 17, 2023

I'm super excited to share this excellent conversation I had with podcaster Candice Horbacz, host of "Chatting With Candice". In this episode, we talk about: - Finding the relationship that works for YOU - The journey of trust and opening up to your partner - Understand the truth about men and their feelings - Overcoming jealousy in a relationship There's tons of great takeaways and Candice has some really powerful insights from her own past and experience. I can't wait for you to check it out! --- Follow Matt @thematthewhussey Follow Stephen @stephenhhussey --- ►► Stop Waiting and Start Creating the Happiness You Deserve NOW - Claim your spot on my Virtual Retreat, June 2 - 4, 2023 → MHVirtualRetreat.com

🎵 What's up, everybody? Welcome to another one of our special series of interviews. It's such a pleasure to be back with you today and a real pleasure to be with Candice Horbach, who is here today to talk to us about a whole bunch of different things. I have so many questions I want to ask her. In case you haven't come across Candice before, she's a former adult entertainment performer, an entrepreneur in the production and web three space, an organizer of a spiritual

retreat centered on psychedelics and wellness, a mother of two boys, a wife, and the host of the podcast Chatting with Candice. And I was so excited when Candice reached out because I thought, you know what? We're going to have so much to talk about and we can cover so many different subjects. I'm fascinated by people from all different walks of life and the unique perspectives that they can bring as a result of the unique path that they have lived.

So Candice, welcome to Love Life. Thank you so much for having me. I'm really excited to talk with you. Me too. Me too. I know that people are going to have lots of questions for you. I suppose I wanted to jump straight in the deep end when it comes to dating and finding love because everyone can relate to having something that they take with them into dating, into finding love that they feel holds them back. They feel is going to make life more difficult for them. They may call it baggage, but it's the reason either they're telling themselves it's going to be difficult to find love or it's the reason either they're telling themselves it's going to be difficult to find love or it's a reason that other people are telling them it's going to be

difficult to find love. What has been your experience of that? Well, I would say that I have an obvious suitcase that's probably heavier than most going into relationships I think a lot of baggage as people call it is a lot of things that maybe you haven't worked out yourself and maybe you're not ready for a relationship which is like a hard pill to swallow I think you find the partner that's right for you at the right time so they'll help you overcome like certain challenges and kind of meet you where you're at. So with my husband, I think the most, one of the most beautiful things about our relationship is we've been together now for about 12 years, married for seven. So he met me soon as

I was entering the industry at like a very, um, very modest level. I was only webcamming and it was all implied, like centerfold kind of shoots, nothing too explicit yet. And we kind of have been on the journey together. Like we've evolved and grown together. So when we met each other, we were at a much more immature place like within ourselves. And then our relationship reflected that. So I think that partially that was to our benefit because we weren't like thinking marriage we weren't thinking kids we were relatively young and just like ex experiencing excitement and all of the nuance and kind of living this more outlier kind of lifestyle and that was attractive to both of us um I think where I got really lucky is once the relationship and

both of us started to mature as we were able to do that together. And it wasn't easy at all. Like there was a lot of like trials and tribulations, especially within that, with me going through that industry and really navigating like, who is Candace? Like, what does she want? And is that in disalignment with, you know, Eva and what she wants in her career and just kind of, I guess, overcoming all of that together. So Eva was your stage name, I suppose, or your performer alias. And then there's Candice, you, right? And what were, could you speak, you know, only within the realms of what you're comfortable with, but could you speak about what the trials and tribulations were during that time when you were both at a different stage of your relationship? You're in an industry

that a lot of people would find difficult to even understand how to navigate the challenges of that within a monogamous relationship. You can tell me if it wasn't monogamous or not, but what were your, what were the trials and tribulations, the typical ones? And if so, what were they? And were they things that we wouldn't expect? So I think the obvious one is jealousy. That is going to be the one that everyone kind of is like, how did he get over all of that um and i always say like i don't want to speak like for him but i can share like what we've discussed and you know privacy in private and a lot of it is

like it's a lot of it's his personality honestly so he would lean into anything uncomfortable so for him specifically it's kind of getting down to first principles of why you feel a certain way or why you believe a certain thing. And ironically, I mean, jealousy on my end too. So we were monogamous. Then we played around with kind of an open relationship. And then that was a huge learning curve for everybody because I found out I'm like wildly jealous like I was wildly jealous and I kind of had to take his lead. So because he had been so understanding with me getting into the porn industry and we've really had to like look jealousy in the face and like, well, where is this coming from?

Like why? Why do I have this sense of ownership over another person? And that is kind of like what led him into accepting my decision to get in in the first place was that he didn't want to kind of get in the way of that decision for me. He's like, I hope I'm here at the end of it. But like, you have to make a decision for yourself in this, in this regard. But yeah, we played around with like the rules of our relationship. And I would say the huge thing takeaway for most people with that is you get to craft your own relationship you get to make your

own boundaries and you don't have to necessarily go into this perfect cookie cutter relationship that society has drawn out for you so no it doesn't mean you have to be non-monogamous like absolutely not it doesn't have to be that extreme, but you can kind of paint the exact relationship that you want. So I mean, I've seen couples where they can't have a girl's night. Like the girl can't go out with just her girlfriends because the guy will get wildly jealous. And to me, that's so unhealthy. You have to be able to be an independent person and then also kind of have like a Venn diagram where you intersect in the middle, but you still remain whole on your own. And a lot of people don't want to sit with that discomfort. And they're like, well, she's going out and she's dressed a certain way.

So that means that she's trying to seek attention and all of like those common narratives that we hear. And it's like, no, you have to be able to really have real trust. And that means brutal honesty. And that also means like total freedom. So obviously, we took it at a very different level when it comes to total freedom. And again, you don't have to take it there. But that to me is what love is. Love is freedom. So we learned a lot about each other and then a lot of what was ours and what wasn't. So for me, a lot of the jealousy that I had was modeled for me when I was younger. I had female role models that, like if a man was watching a movie and would be like, oh, Catherine Zeta-Jones is so beautiful, that would be an argument for a week straight. Like that poor guy would not hear the end of it.

And to me, I thought that was normal, that was acceptable, and that was healthy. The older I got and the more I was kind of faced to understand my own jealousy, it was like, that creates the most fragile relationship on the planet. Because if my love is dependent on me being the most beautiful woman in the room, at some point, that's not going to be true. I'm going to go into the wrong room. I'm going to get older, whatever the case may be. So how do I create a relationship that's not dependent on something that's totally out of my control? And it's understanding that we can all appreciate beauty and it doesn't take away from the beauty that you have. And that also that your relationship isn't that fragile. Your relationship isn't built on something so superficial. There's more of like a spiritual connection and it doesn't take away from that.

So I think a lot of us kind of feel this competition all of the time. I find what you just said so interesting and so relatable, that idea. I love the example of, you know, someone saying that Catherine Zeta-Jones was beautiful and that being an argument for a week straight, I feel like some version of that is so relatable for so many people. Are there things that you typically see that you think just are, you know, there are extremes of deciding what we're going to be jealous about and not jealous about. And you've lived that world, but in everyday relationships that aren't playing in those extremes, are there things that you objectively think are not worth getting jealous about for

anybody? And what do you think those things are? I think alone time is huge, whether your partner wants to go out to the beach by themselves just to meditate or have time in nature, or if they want to hang out with their close group of friends without you, if they want to be able to go to a movie without you, you have to allow space for that independence um i think it's it's really silly to get worked up over that i think jealousy too it's a lot of uh we're comparing so you went out three times with your friends this month and i haven't gone out at all so it's not even really about that it's just more of you feeling a lack so this one thing my husband said to me and it rings in my ear all the time because we just had our second baby, and it's you ask for support, not permission. So if you're always

assuming the best out of your partner, which is also a great piece of advice that I have been given, it's like if he has been working all day and he gets home and he just goes on the couch and wants to take a nap, I have to assume like he really needs that. He's not doing it to be avoided. He's not doing that because he doesn't care how my day was. It's just constantly assuming the best out of your partner. So when you reframe it that way, it's a lot more difficult to get mad and that works with jealousy as well. So instead of automatically making the worst assumption out of what could be happening, you assume the best out of them. You have to take a step back and say, have they given me any indication, any evidence

that they're not committed, that they don't love me, that they don't care, that they don't want what's best for me, that they are going to run away and abandon me? All of these little things we tell ourselves, which is why we justify our jealousy. So if the answers to all of those things are no, well, then you have to ask yourself, which is why we justify our jealousy. So if the answers to all of those things are no, well, then you have to ask yourself, well, why am I jealous then? Like, what is this really coming from? And then sit with that. And for everyone, it's going to be a little bit different, but at the end of the day, it does tend to stem from some sense of fear or some sense of like abandonment somewhere. So you just kind of have to sit with it to find like your own answer

for that and how would you apply that to you know you use the example of seeing someone on a screen and saying they're attractive do you think that across the board objectively when it comes to real life and you see people walking down the street do you think there's a kind of objective truth about what we should be okay with when it comes to observation and noticing things out loud there so i think yeah there's there's obviously a difference apologies for interrupting you but i think that you know we have a lot of women who come to us and they will say you know he i catch him looking at people a lot. I catch him doing things in front of me that makes me feel disrespected and pluck out his eyes. You know what I mean? I'm sorry to like make fun because, and I have like to any woman or like, or man, if

this is triggering you, I mean, I have been there, like I have been that wildly jealous. And again, it has to do with you. It has nothing to do with your partner's behavior. And you have like, first and foremost, you have to come to that realization before you can have any growth in that area. Like it is not about the other person. Second of all, like we are all visual creatures and men especially. So there's a way like if he's staring at another woman and undressing her with her with his eyes, like right in front of you, of course, like that wouldn't make me feel great either. But a simple glance, which is often more the case that that of what a man's doing, it's like, oh, he just like noticed a beautiful woman walk in the room. Of course, like, of course. Right. And that doesn't take away from your beauty. And that's no slight to you. I don't find that to be disrespectful.

It's like he's just noticing an objectable truth, like a truth, like something beautiful just entered the space glance. Okay. Come back. And I'm going to give you my attention again, go back to those questions. Has he shown you any indication that he's going to leave, not committed, doesn't care about your happiness, doesn't love you. It go back to those questions. Um, and honestly, like it sounds harsh, but it is an insecurity. So you do have to kind of figure out why that emotion is bubbling up within yourself. So jealousy for some reason is an emotion we've never been taught to challenge or overcome or grow out of. It's an acceptable behavior where if I got angry and I you know chose physical violence as my expression of

that anger we would be like that's not okay that's not a healthy expression of anger but for some reason we don't say that when it comes to jealousy like any form of expression is is valid right now for a lot of people and i think that we kind of have to reframe that relationship because there is a lot of unhealthy jealousy out there it's funny you said that phrase, any form of expression is valid these days, because I was literally about to ask you what you make of the phrase, your feelings are valid, which always struck me as a fairly dangerous phrase. But it's a phrase that, you know, I've seen people wear on t-shirts, your feelings are valid. Uh, you know, it's that ubiquitous term that sounds good. And it also is very reassuring, right? If we feel

jealous and if we feel like our partner is, you know, they just looked at this person over here and this is, you know, like bubbling up inside me. And now, you know, I may not mention it, but I'm now passive aggressive for an entire dinner because of something that just happened before we came, before we arrived. It's, it's something that when we hear your feelings are valid, we, it feels reassuring. It feels good. Like, yes, my feelings are valid. You're right. You know, I have a, I have a right to feel these things. What do you make of, of that phrase? And do you feel like it sort of takes away the accountability that we have for actually exploring those things? Absolutely. I'm not a fan of that phrase either. I try to take like more of a stoic approach and

obviously I'm human. So I fall short of that all the time, but it's to not let your emotions kind of control you. You need to be in control of your emotions. So it's really, especially with small children. So I love comparing people to toddlers because A, it gets them really riled up, but it also provides a very stark example of like, whoa, in my worst moments, yes, that is how I behave. I'm just a very big toddler. So when they're having a fit

and they're in this emotional side of their brain, they're not going to be able to go into the rational side of their brain. So when you're overcome with jealousy, you're not going to be able to, again, go to that rational side of your brain and be like, no, he loves me. He takes care of me. He, my needs, whatever, right? We go on dates. Like he's given me no signs that he's going to all of a sudden abandoned me for this waitress that he just glanced at. So you have to somehow get your mind out of that emotional kind of like hypnotic state and become grounded again. So a quick way, I forget who teaches this, but if you kind of count back from five, so like five, four, three, two, one, you can start getting into more of your rational

brain and then that'll help kind of get you out of that emotional state. And then you can reassess. But not all of your emotions are valid. Not all of your thoughts are valid. Like think about the voice in your head. Most of the time we are so mean to ourselves. Like that, that voice in our head is the sky is falling. It is like chicken little, like you're not good enough.

You're not worthy of love. You're not pretty enough or slim enough or buff enough or whatever it is. So think of how many times throughout one day, like take a journal and actually try to write it down and see how many times that voice or that feeling wasn't valid. Like if you just need more concrete evidence. So no, I don't think that all're all emotions are valid. I think that, um, maybe like, again, it goes to like your truth too, which suggests that there is no objection, like objectable truth, which I don't like either. Um, so it's like to get, to get your place to a softer, more open space, and then you can talk about it with your partner. But

if you're going to have these conversations around jealousy and reframing and crafting your relationship, I think you need to provide trust on both ends as well. So if he's going to be vulnerable with you and tell you, yeah, I did find her attractive, but that doesn't mean anything. I'm sorry if the way I was looking at her made you feel less than I find you beautiful and I love you, blah, you can't then attack him you can't then be passive aggressive because you he trusted you enough to be vulnerable so you don't want to punish your partner by then saying well you know I don't know just like punishing him later for being honest because then he's not going to be honest again. I'm really glad you said that because, and I like the use of words in him saying that

is counterintuitive, right? That him saying that he found someone attractive is vulnerable. But, but you're right. There is a, in the right context, you know, if he's walking around going, she's attractive, she's attractive, that's not vulnerable. But no, no, no. If you're having an open and honest conversation and you're saying something made you feel uncomfortable and he's vulnerable about sharing with you the honest truth. Um, but he grounds that in safety

for you. You know, I love you. You're beautiful. I'm not going anywhere. You know, it just, sometimes that happens that, that is trust. It's trusting someone with information like that, that could backfire for them and probably has a lot in their lifetime. And I think that's one of the things that certainly men encounter a lot is that, and I, and of course women have their version of it is if I actually say this, they say they want to know this but but when I say it all hell breaks loose and it never goes well so we sort of learn to you know even put shame around those things and say god I must be off I must be an awful person and I just must never voice this about myself and And, you know, I think that that's

true. I actually think that's true of, of porn in relationships too, right? We said this on a recent podcast we did, but you know, porn is one of those things that people carry a lot of shame around and they get shamed a lot for. So even if they feel that they don't like their own porn consumption even if there's a sense of god i wish i didn't feel kind of like i wanted to go to this as this kind of compulsive trigger in my life the same way that i drink too much coffee or the same way that i'd overeat or they don't feel they can actually express that to their partner because they feel that that that level of honesty is actually not possible within their relationship and i i i really i've become so in my relationship today i feel safer than i've ever felt and because and that's not just safe that this person is going to

be loyal to me which actually has allowed me to jealousies that I've had in the past that have really like, and we even had them in the beginning of our relationship. I remember her telling me about specific, you know, a specific situation and it made me really jealous. And we had a massive fight and the fight went on for ages and it was so draining and I can look back now and recognize that that was a time in our relationship where I didn't feel safe not because of her but because of just what I associated with the past and ways I hadn't felt safe in the past and as you say I think way things that I'd modeled growing up that are threats that do represent danger. And because of the safety that got created in

that relationship over time, I literally don't spend a second thinking about any of those things anymore. I do. I just do not get jealous in those ways anymore. And that actually was no small thing for me that represented a really big shift. So what do you think on both sides? Because how can, how can women specifically make someone feel safe that once they've provided some piece of information that you know they create a this environment where that person's willing to do that again tomorrow and next week and next week and what do you think people can do to if if you're a woman who kind of really gets introspective and says, well, the reason I'm jealous here is because there is some deeper way that I don't feel safe in this relationship. And actually what

that means is because I don't feel safe on this deeper level, I flare up on all of these superficial levels. What do you think they can do to explore what their partner could do in the more fundamental ways to make them feel safe and how they could communicate that? I know that's a lot of questions, but feel free to attach it. I'll try to remember them. So first, I guess when it comes to someone expressing vulnerability and creating a space where they're likely to do that again, it's to not take it personal. That's like the number one thing.

So relatively recently, my husband and I actually had like a really, I want to say intense conversation, but I just listened. And I think that's also huge too, is make sure you're actually listening. Not okay. Now I know exactly how I'm going to rebuke this, right? Like working up the conversation in your head like be present try not to listen to anything in your head and just like absorb what they're saying but don't take it personal like just like hear their side of whatever it is so

we had this conversation where he did 99% of the talking and I just kind of sat there and like openly listened and there's an energy to that too right it's like am i defensive or did i put up a wall or am i ready to be on offense or am i soft and like in a receiving mode right like that permeates and there is science to say we have like a three to seven foot energy field right and then they those connect so your energy going into it is absolutely paramount so he kind of came to me and i could tell right away it was a serious conversation and he has been doing a lot in the psychedelic space. So I think this is also kind of bringing stuff back to the surface. And he's just trying to like re reframe or like really dig up maybe things that we thought weren't a big deal, but maybe he realized now are a very big deal and he kind of went through the last

year or so of my career and how it was really hard for him and how he was processing it and how his version of that year was very different than my the version that i thought was happening like our realities were not aligned at all and then that led to um honestly like that year that it was like probably about 2016 it was gonna like make or break our marriage it was that intense and we just I had no idea how disconnected we were because I was traveling so much for work so he sat there and kind of like let me have it like he wasn't attacking me at all, but he was just like, this was how I felt. This is the way I saw everything. It made me feel like shit.

I had to deal with a lot of friends and people in the community doing X, Y, Z. I felt like my masculinity was under attack because everyone was saying like, how could you let her? And it wasn't blaming me. It was just him sharing his perspective and if i had gone into it with how dare he we made this agreement together and then oh he waits until the year i'm retiring to tell me that this is like right i could have taken it so many other ways and at the end of it like i just embraced him and i was like i'm sorry you had to go through all of that and he was just like almost like crying because he was like wow I'm sorry you had to go through all of that. And he was just like, almost like crying

because he was like, wow, I can't, I can't believe you let me say all of that. I can't believe how present you were. And I can't believe like you didn't react. You didn't react. You just like, let me vent. And he goes, and I didn't even know that's what I needed, but that's all I needed. He's like, I feel so much better. Like he, we weren't trying to like work through anything. He thought maybe that's what he wanted. But at the end, because I provided such a safe space, he was like, oh, that was it. We're good now. I'm good now. So I think that's kind of the key. It sounds really simple, but it's really hard because again, we're, we're wired to kind of be defensive and to like protect our space and our name and all of those things um as far as being on the other end it was the question was what like how a woman kind of

the process of introspection i suppose if you know you know i i i know speaking for myself i was in you know a relationship where things did flare me up in ways that they would not if my current partner did them, but it was because I didn't feel safe on a deeper level. What would you say to someone who is sort of diagnosed that, you know what, actually, I don't, there are ways that I do not feel safe right now. And they're, they're bigger than this. And it's because this person isn't making me feel sure of our relationship, or they're not showing me that they're all in. They're not showing me they're truly committed. And that's why when I don't get a text from them for three hours, I suddenly I, you know, spiral into this maddening fantasy of, of them, they've already left me and, you know, they're with someone else. What would you say to someone in that situation? So there's a couple of things. Um, first I would say if it's in the beginning of a relationship

and you know, those foundations haven't really been laid yet. Um, you, you're allowed to say what you need in a relationship. And it goes back to kind of curating your relationship or customizing your relationship. So you can say, like, I really don't appreciate being ignored all day. Like if you could periodically check your phone, you know, once on the hour to see if I need something. I had Lisa Bilyeu actually on my podcast. And there's this one thing that she does with Tom, which I thought was so great because they're both like very high performing individuals and both have their own projects going on. So neither one of them can be glued to the phone, right? And make sure like you need, I can answer all of your questions and meet all

of your needs at the drop of a dime. But if one of them calls three times in a row that means if you are with the president if you are with like you know with your nasa whatever it is you could be with the most important person in the world you stop what you're doing and you call me back so they have like that specific protocol in their relationship which i think is so amazing because it's like is this an emergency or do you just kind of need to say hello? Right. Those are two different things. So you can customize your relationship and say, hey, can you please check your phone every hour or do that three that three call thing or that three texts in a row, whatever you kind of want to customize.

Now, I want to be careful with that, though, because you have to again, it's all about yourself. It's not about the other person giving you what you need. You have to give yourself what you need. So if there's this huge fear of abandonment or he's going to leave you or he's going to cheat on you or whatever the case may be, it's not beneficial for you to say, well, I texted you 10 times in 15 minutes and you didn't respond or you need to call me back right away or you watched my Instagram story and then you didn't respond or you need to call me back right away or you watched my instagram story and then you didn't comment and being like overly controlling because you do need

space otherwise you are going to consume your partner and then that's not a healthy relationship so you have to learn to be okay with distance a little bit so they say when it comes to the maturity of maturity of a relationship that kids often, they need proximity for it to feel real. And that's because of the immaturity of them and kind of figuring out the world. And then how that transcribes into adulthood is because you didn't have those safety measures met at a young age, that now you need proximity in your adult relationships. And that's a sign of immaturity

so you have to be okay with him going an hour or two or even maybe longer without responding depending on what your partner is doing like maybe your way at a work conference maybe you're in a meeting maybe you are meditating and you put everything on silent whatever it is maybe you just wanted some of your own time i don't think that there necessarily needs to be a reason. You have to be comfortable with that distance. So again, there's a balance. Of course, if he's got his red receipts on and it's new in the relationship,

he's watching all your stories and not responding, that's not okay either. And you're allowed to say that. You're allowed to say like, I need presence. I need you to be in or out. So that's also fair. So you kind of have to understand like what that pull is. Is that pull genuine or not?

Yes. I love that. I love that. And I think understanding, again, it goes back to trusting each other with information, but understanding that you can actually communicate what you need from each other. You know, me and Audrey, we have a, we have a joke that, you know, when she goes away for the weekend, periodically, she's had like in the last year, she's had a couple of moments where, you know, she's had, um, either like a bachelorette party or weekend, or she's had a friend's wedding to go to. We're in that season

where just friends are getting married left, right, and. And she, when she has to go away for a weekend, the kind of joke is that she's like, I'm leaving. And do you miss me? And I'm kind of, she knows from my face that the answer is not really, I'm good. Like I'm actually looking forward to having a weekend where I'm just by myself. And we laugh together because A, she feels completely safe. She knows that doesn't, that's not a sign of anything. And, and B, she actually knows that I enjoy it. She knows I will have my like little routines that I have that when she is around, she makes fun of me for, and she knows that there are just things that I do to have like a really lovely weekend in my own company. But because I, it, it adds so much to our relationship that I

feel I can actually say that instead of having to hide the fact that no, I'm at, I'm actually going to have a really good time because you're not here. And that's also given her permission to say the same thing. Like I need to go hang out with my girls. I'm like, I, you know, I, I really need that. I'm actually looking forward to getting away from you and doing that. Um, you brought up an interesting point though, which was early on in a relationship where you perhaps are struggling to even call it a relationship because neither of you have spoken about it. You're dating, you know, you really like this person. Perhaps you're seeing them regularly. The communication may be consistent or inconsistent, but it's ongoing.

Those are the times where it feels like it's really tricky, right? Because it's a bit of a chicken egg thing. We don't have the safety from that person that would make us feel like we can just feel secure in how much they want us or how much they're going to be in a relationship with us. But we also don't want to chase them down and we don't want to become that person that's actually going to drive someone away that could be a really good thing if we're able to bring a healthy version of ourselves to the situation. So what's your thinking on how to enter something in an attractive and healthy manner in a way that actually makes the relationship more likely to happen because of that behavior

at a time when you do not feel safe? I think a lot of that is probably modeling. So it's you showing up how you want them to show up. So if they text you and you expect to be texted back within a reasonable amount of time, you're doing that. So often it's like, do I text him back? Do I have to wait three days days and like you're sitting there and ruminating and trying to plot all of these things and over complicating it at the end of the day because if someone's into you you know that they're into you and there's nothing wrong with that for some reason we're like we don't want to come on too strong but if you're really into someone they're probably really into you and you guys are both doing like this weird awkward dance um so i think

it's showing up how you want them to show up and if they don't meet you where you need them to meet you, then you can say that you're not compatible. Like that's always okay too. But going in with a ton of seriousness and a bunch of rules and being like very iron fist about it, that's not good either, right? Like that's going to absolutely drive somebody away. So I think you have to understand that during the infancy of that relationship, there has to be room for like, just like more playful, light behavior, right? Like you don't have all of these like grand expectations yet because you guys aren't necessarily a relationship and you haven't started building a future together. It's like, we're just trying to see if we are a good fit. Like that's what it's about. Like, do we have the same interests? Do

we have the same dreams, the same goals? Do we look at the world the same way? Like, are we both optimistic as one of us ascetic, like just kind of like really trying to understand who you are and then who they are and if that is a good match. Um, and then obviously at some point you'd, someone has to initiate the conversation of, is this progressing and getting more serious? And then that's where you can start having more of those like concrete expectations of what you want out of a life partner, um, versus someone that you're just trying to dance with and kind of see where that goes. So it's like, don't skip the fun part, right?

The beginning months or weeks, like that is so fun and light and carefree. And it's supposed to be because you're trying to see the best version of each other and then i think that's very telling because again if everything's drama in the beginning like that's probably not a good idea so you want to go into it without expectations and just like curiosity yeah that's a wonderful answer you know people their anxiety in the beginning about what it's going to be can kill any joy that they could get from just actually being present in the situation and seeing how it evolves and i think one of the distinctions that's important to make when we

talk about modeling is we need to model the kind of communication that we want on our best and healthiest day. Cause if we model the kind, if we're like, well, okay, so if I model what I want from them, I'm going to text them every five minutes because that's what I want from them. And that's, you know, that's not you on your healthiest day. That's you when you have nothing going on. It's you when you have no purpose. It's you when you're getting all of your validation from one person in life. I think it's really important to model the communication, even if you've never had it, model the communication of a relationship where you feel safe. And that's going to have you behave, you know, in a way that's healthy, not in a way that

is in line with your attachment style, because that can get you into a lot of trouble. What do you say then? You know, I think probably a lot of people get confused in those stages that we're talking about where they don't know what it is yet with this person. They're trying to enjoy it. But because they've decided they like this person and it can be literally from date one, as we all know, you have decided that this person is wonderful and that you really hope that this thing goes somewhere and now there's a kind of putting all your eggs in that basket thing that happens where you you really do now start to put it on a pedestal you start to raise the stakes of it to an impossible degree and it precipitates the exact kind of anxiety that we're saying should be avoided you could say that the antidote to that is to have you know don't stop dating other people like keep dating keep meeting other people don't make it something

it isn't before it is that but it's also possible that we can sometimes create mess in early relationships by doing that and things that we then have to explain later on that we wish we didn't have to explain. You know, I hooked up with that person during that very early dating phase with you. And what's your take on navigating that? What feels like a minefield early on? I don't want to get too serious withfield early on of, I don't want to get too serious with that person, but also I don't want to sabotage this, what I have with this person by going and hooking up with someone else. So I think it's a, it's a couple of things. When

you're looking for love, you have to be vulnerable. Like you have to be at peace with the fact that you could get your heart broken. That that is just that's the cost of the game um and there's no way that you can safeguard against that you have no idea how it's going to turn out so to try to have these little insurance policies just in case i don't think that's a good idea unless you're like well i'm not sure so i'm going to keep you know my i'm going to keep dating a couple people because i'm not feeling that pull to, it's very counterproductive if you do go on this date and you're like, this person is just amazing. What like I want to spend every minute with them. I really want to get to know them. I think you're doing yourself and that potential relationship a huge disservice by minimizing that.

So treat it how you feel about it. Like if it is something special to you, treat it like it's something special. And again, you have to be okay and vulnerable with that not working out and maybe them not feeling the way that you feel. But if you're super into someone, it's going to be really hard to explain going on a date with someone the next day, like someone else the next day or sleeping with someone, you know, the same week or whatever it is. So, you have to show up honestly and authentically for yourself and you can't really control the other person or how they respond

to that. But it's like behave in a way that reflects your interest in seriousness of that relationship. And again, if it's, I mean, my parent, they're divorced, so maybe not the greatest example, but they were married for 15 years um he proposed on the first date and then they were married again married for 15 years so it did it was a really long marriage even in today's terms i was gonna say something i mean if it was 15 years of hell that's maybe a different story but if two people are married for 15 years and many of them are successful years i count that as a win i think think one of the things in, in our, you know, one of the things I think more, I wish actually more of the, the women that, uh, that followed us did was count their previous marriage as a win. If, if, you know, if you had some longevity

in that marriage is that's still a winner. Lifetime is a long time when it comes to one person. Uh, and, uh, I think it's important for our own confidence that, you know, we, we don't write off entire swaths of our life as a, as not successful when in fact, in so many ways they were, I think what you, everything you just said, I couldn't agree with more. I, I, but to challenge it, I, you go on a date, you really like someone, um, you have a sense of this is something special. And I hear this a lot and sometimes it's true. And other times it's very one-sided. Uh, there's a, there's a feeling of it being very special, but what's happened is that they've gone on a date with someone who's really good at giving very special dates. And, uh, you know, when I think of, I just

had a conversation with Dr. Ramani yesterday. I don't know if you know, Dr. Ramani, um, but she's an expert on narcissism and, oh yeah, yeah, yeah. I know her. She, um um one of the things we you know we talked about is how narcissists give really great dates early on and they can make you feel incredibly special and heard and connected and then you go away and you feel that this is very very important when in fact it's really just a very, very intense feeling. And, you know, I always say if, if feelings were a measure of importance, then MDMA would be the most important thing in the world. The, the feeling isn't the only important thing. The facts are really important of, you know, the behaviors, the investment, the, how that person shows up over time but when we feel

something really strongly in the beginning and we've decided it's special we are then kind of liable to give more than we should actually be giving or try harder than we should actually be trying right now and i think probably most of us have had the experience of meeting someone for the first time. And if I flip it, you know, we've met someone and they've decided something about us very quickly. And then they put so much on that thing and they start, they almost become a fan and, you know, they're trying so hard. And they're as a result it's sort of their value starts to decrease in our eyes because you're like oh this is not this is not an organic thing here so i guess this is a long-winded way of asking of saying yes yes yes to going on a date

and respecting what you think it the potential this thing could be. But where do you think, how do you think people can avoid that sending them headfirst into giving way too much too early? Oh man. So I feel there's some people that they have this incredible date and they automatically start picking out like a wedding dress or like planning their future and you're living and you're living in the future you're not being present at all and I also think when you're in this place that just seems like like you're taking right like you're not really giving to the other person you're just like take take take you're operating from like a deficiency so I think it's kind of like that old adage of fill your own cup. Like don't be, don't give away your agency or your, like your independence just because you found

someone that could be a potential life partner. So don't stop doing the things for you that make you happy or make you, or make you feel fulfilled. like don't start ditching your friends or your family or stop like you stop doing your hobbies or you're calling out of work you start to kind of trade in your identity for this potential person and sometimes it's for even if it's an established relationship i don't think that's healthy either so it's more of like building this life together or like this potential relationship together instead of like taking from them like i want your time i want your attention i want what it's more of like i can exist over here independently and hopefully we can build something beautiful in the middle and i can like respect that you exist independently as well um so it's just like not trading off your pieces

of your life and yourself for somebody else. Is there anything that in the, having led this, you know, career that a lot of people can't relate to and, and then, you know, having your marriage and everything you've learned along the way, are there insights that you have gained about men that have surprised you? Because I feel that, you know, a lot of women, when I say certain things about men, they're almost, there's almost a level of shock, like, really? Like, I don't, men really are like that, or they really think that, or they're capable of that kind of thought or feeling or emotion. What for you have been unique or surprising insights that you've had about men along the way? Oh, that makes me so sad. But I know, I know that you're telling the truth with that, because I think men are wonderful. And so many of us write that entire sex off. And we kind of like

put this pejorative on the word man or what it is to be masculine or like all of it's it's bad or they're incapable of connection and and emoting which is nuts it's almost something that um it's like this crazy eight pattern we want them to be vulnerable and express their emotions but then when they do we, well, that's not masculine or somehow you're not right for experiencing those things. Like it's actually about me. And then they shut down and they don't express the emotion. And then here we go in this crazy eight pattern, right? So I would say the thing that I've learned that was really surprising to me is I get a ton of fan mail, like actual snail mail. I get a ton of DMs and emails and people write in all of the time. And I can't tell you how many men are just like craving some kind of

connection. Like it's not, and I don't know if this makes it better or worse for a lot of women that are like on the fence about porn or like very decided that it's wrong or very decided that it's cheating. But a lot of these men just they'll come to me and they'll say, I've been married for 20 years, 40 years. And my wife will not look at me. She won't touch me. There's and I'm not talking just sex, just like actual intimacy. She doesn't ask me about my day. And if she does intimacy she doesn't ask me about my day and if she does she doesn't really care um she if i am in a place where i'm vulnerable she'll tell me that i'm can i curse i don't know if i can curse or not yeah you can curse yeah like if like i'm just acting like a pussy all

of these things like we like tear men down um so i would say like the biggest thing is they're highly emotional like you guys are highly emotional creatures too and you crave connection just like we do it's just you you've been conditioned to be told that you're not allowed to express those things or somehow it's at odds with your masculinity and funny enough I just tweeted this last night my son was on his iPad on YouTube kids which I hate and we're trying to work through that because you're not in control of what pops up. So this video came up with this dad chasing his son around with a big poster board that said no. So his son would do something. He'd be like, no, no. And this was like the theme of the thing. Eventually, the kid fell on the playground and started crying. And he puts up his sign and he goes, no, crying is bad. No crying. You have to be strong.

And I stopped it. I grabbed his iPad. I go, we need to talk about something really quick. So I paused it. I was like, I'm going to block this channel and this video. I'm going to tell you why. And I pointed to the dad and I was like, he's wrong. I was like, what he just said is wrong. Crying is fine. You are allowed to cry. And sometimes it takes a lot of strength to cry. So you can be strong and cry. And he just looked at me and softened. And he's like, okay, mama. And we blocked it.

And he actually like brought it up later on in the night because he started crying. And he's like, and I was like, your brother's sleeping. He's like, I'm crying. And I'm like, okay, you're allowed to cry. I can't tell him not to cry right now after all that. So I had to like hurry up to his bedroom so he didn't wake up the baby. But you know, like those little moments can have such a huge impact on who he shows up to be as a man. And we don't think so, but there's so many conversations or like even

side conversations or things that we're consuming at such a young age that really tell paint the framework for that voice in our head later in adulthood. So I think it's not to write men off and it's to again create a safe space where they can be vulnerable and share emotions and don't let that be a turnoff to you if anything like when my husband cries which is so new like we've like cracked something open in him I am just like I turn into mush and I'm just like I love this man so much like I love this man so much and I am so honored to be someone that he can trust to do this with I yeah it's so beautiful for women who find themselves with a guy that they would describe as avoidant, what do you think are some practical ways or what have you found to be some practical ways of getting a person like that to actually open up, to share more and to do it consistently so it's not just a one-time thing? So they've done this exercise in making people fall in love with each other. They wanted to see if it was something that you could replicate. And it turns out you can, at least based off of

this study. So it's framed as a bunch of questions kind of volleying back and forth. So they start really superficial and light, but each time it gets a little bit deeper and a little bit more real. And then the person responds and their question, again, it's like, it's exponential. It's like 34 questions or 24 or something, right? Yeah. So by the end of it, you're asking deepest, darkest secrets, like just questions that really require you to kind of show your underbelly to the person. And by the end of it, they did have the neurochemistry of falling in love with this perfect stranger. So I think, again, modeling is kind of like the theme of the conversation. If that's what you want and you want to kind of you really want a trusting,

solid relationship, something that's real is modeling it. So if you're trying to kind of, you really want a trusting, solid relationship. Something that's real is modeling it. So if you're trying to kind of like pull certain threads, you can be like, well, there was this time where I felt this way, right? And just kind of experience share. And even if they don't open up right then, they'll probably come back later when they feel more comfortable and then do it. So I don't know what book I was reading, but they were saying, especially with boys, it's really important for them to kind of have one-on-one time with their fathers because if the mom like asks them a question, she can like, you know, go off and if they don't answer right away and just like write it off, like, okay, like I guess it didn't bother him. Getting bullied didn't bother him. Not getting picked for dodgeball didn't bother him not getting picked for dodgeball didn't didn't bother him but

if he's with his dad in like a in a space that's not um like time's not a requa like a barrier right like he can kind of just sit there and be present eventually that kid is going to open up and then kind of be like you know i actually felt this way so it's not putting a clock on it either so don't assume it's not working so model the behavior give them time to process it another cool exercise but it might be like way too hippie especially if they're already avoidant is eye gazing like that can be super powerful and what you'll realize is maybe you're married for 10 years and then you do this eye gazing exercise and you can look it up online um you put the timer on and

it's silence and it's just you and your partner like super close just staring into each other's eyes and you're like whoa this is really uncomfortable and you have to like why is this uncomfortable like this has been my husband or this has been my wife for however long or we've been dating for how long like how come this level of intimacy is too much and you'll kind of see where you can kind of fortify that relationship and so many times people will start start crying or they'll start um like remembering certain emotions or things that had bothered them or just connect on a really deep level it's super powerful you know i have had moments where i'm in front of the mirror and i've just been like i'm just

going to do this with myself for a couple of minutes and just like eye gaze with myself and it's so interesting because you can notice that you're not even fully comfortable with that moment with yourself it's like it's a weird feeling almost like embarrassment when no one's even there and if you think that you can have that on your own then you can certainly have it with somebody who you share a house with because you can have it with yourself you can literally have not had intimacy or with yourself in any real way have not connected to yourself as a human being in any real way in a long time. You've just done the equivalent of what so many people do in a marriage. You've just kept yourself

endlessly distracted so that you don't actually have to spend any time with yourself, just as people do with a partner. I have one more question and then I really want to give people a chance to ask you their questions because one of the things that we do in this membership is we give people a chance to actually have a little time with our guests. It's part of the experience and they get to have a little interaction with someone that they may never normally in life be able to connect with or reach. What did and are doing which is really fantastic is pivot your life in a way that allowed you to just explore completely new directions and people's identities become so concretized that they find it near impossible to do that

maybe they're worried what their friends or family will think if they decide that they're suddenly going to do or be something else. Maybe they don't think that they'll be capable. Maybe it feels like they're too far down the rabbit hole of what they're already doing. What would be your advice to people who feel like there's, there is some yearning for a change and what they've been doing for so long is constantly throwing up the question, like, is this all there is? Is this really like, this is, is this me forever? Um, in the context

of a life that is pretty short and where, as far as I know, we don't get a second chance. You know, I think it's essential for people to be able to make the most of their lives by having new, new evolutions, new chapters of themselves. But as someone who's, who's done that and is doing it, you you know the fact that we're having this conversation is evidence of that what would be your advice to people in a situation like that so i know it can be terrifying leaving something that cert like quote unquote certain and i think that's one of the beautiful things that came out of the pandemic because we realized how much is not certain as far as our careers go like we might have thought that our job was reliable and it was gonna be there no matter what.

So that's how we kind of justified those trade-offs, especially when it comes to our time and attention with our loved ones. So I think it kind of shifted that paradigm for a lot of people and it made them kind of reorganize their values and what was important to them. So I know it can be terrifying when you have people that rely on your income and it could be a job that you hate, but you're like, what is my family

going to do without that? You have to also ask the question, how am I going to show up for my family 10 years from now if every single day I'm giving a little bit of my soul away for this company that doesn't treat me well that doesn't respect my time um what's it gonna be like when your kids are out of the house and you realize like you've only saw them an hour before bedtime and sometimes on weekends if your boss wasn't demanding your time even though you're supposed to be off the clock what's it gonna look like when my kids leave the house and I realized I haven't taken my wife out on a date in 18 years. I haven't made love to my wife in 18 years. Like not had sex, like actual like make love with them, really connect and kind of have that transcend, transcendental experience with them. So is that what your family deserves? Is that what you deserve

or do all of you kind of deserve to take that risk to be a happier person? If you need to downgrade your lifestyle to make this happen, downgrade it. I guarantee that your spouse and your children would much rather have you than an extra thousand square feet than go to Disneyland once a year. So it's just for some reason we feel like we're not good enough. So I think we compensate with things. So I'm not good enough. i think we compensate with things so i'm not good enough i'm not worthy of love so i'm going to buy the vacation or i'm going to buy all of those toys i'm going to make sure my wife can go to the spa whatever like these things are and for some reason we don't see our own value um so i think it's more risky to not take the risk than it is to take the

risk and i mean i truly believe that again, I'm someone, I got fired from my contract and I was the main earner for our household, but I did it because I was like, I, I can't do this. This is literally eating away at me. And this company is, is terrible and toxic. And I can't do this. My husband was so supportive. And because we went into that decision, head first and like like fully committed committed to it it all worked out a thousand times better and i truly believe believe that for most people so i think it's just kind of reorganizing your life so that you're set up for success whether again that's downgrading or spending some of your free time to build your dream um but i definitely don't

think the answer is like staying somewhere that is taking all of your energy and time away. just want to say this has been such a pleasure and there is such a groundedness and a thoughtfulness and and an insightfulness to every answer you give that it just really shows a lived life and be just an incredible amount of learning and studying and curiosity that you must have had in your life. One of the things I was really impressed with was your bookshelf. There was, I saw one particular interview where there were just so many books behind you where I was like, one of my favorite books, that's another one of my favorite books. There's this, you know, like it was really cool to see the kinds of eclectic, uh, curiosity that you have in your life represented in that wall of knowledge behind you. Would you be able to share with our audience, maybe just one or two books based on everything we've talked about today that you think they

might find really helpful? I would say anything with by esther perel i really love because it does challenge a lot of women's belief systems if you are curious about pornography or you kind of want to understand your relationship with it a billion wicked thoughts is excellent and it's it's very data driven so you can kind of understand and it'll maybe validate that because someone is acknowledging someone else beautiful it doesn't threaten your relationship necessarily i would say one that i recommend for everyone is um don miguel ruiz the four agreements and then the fifth agreement i think that that's just like a really great personal development book um victor frankl's Man's Search for Meaning, excellent book.

It has to do with, you know, like your interstate kind of creates your outer reality. So I think when it comes to relationship stuff, it's all of that personal development that's kind of lead you to a successful romantic relationship. So if every book you're digesting is like how to get the guy or he's just not that into you, like you're not really addressing the core issues because you kind of attract where you're at. Couldn't agree more. Oh, and I should say, Candice, is there somewhere that you want people to check out of your

own that you think would really help people? Sure. Yeah. So the podcast, we just started recording again because I just had my second baby. So you can go to chattingwithcandice.com and I'm going to start uploading new episodes very shortly, but there's a whole library there. All my socials are there. And then eventually we'll be in a place where we can kind of talk about our psychedelic retreat, but it's still kind of in the works right now. So if that's also curious to you, then stay tuned. Candice, this has been really, really wonderful. And I know that

everything you've said from start to finish is going to help a lot of people who listen to this. So I'm really grateful. I know your time is precious. I know you have a lot going on and you have a lot of really exciting things happening in your life. Um, so thank you for choosing to spend some time with us. Um, remind us of that website that people can go to to to find out about all of the things you have going on um you can go to chattingwithcandice.com and that has everything that you need there and thank you so much this was an incredible conversation i had a blast me too me too i hope you get to do it again me too all right candice be well thank you thank you Thank you.