Love Life with Matthew Hussey - 265: Esther Perel’s Advice On Modern Dating, Sexuality, And Communicating In Relationships

Episode Date: October 2, 2024

In this episode, we're joined by world renowned psychotherapist and relationship expert Esther Perel! Esther is a New York Times Bestselling author who books "Mating In Captivity" and "The State Of Affairs" have had a profound impact on our understanding of modern relationships. In this conversation, Matt and Esther talk about how to create desire in relationships, getting connected to your sexuality (even if you haven't in a long time), improving your communication around intimacy and sex with a partner, and practical advice for finding real attraction and love in modern dating. Get a copy of Esther's brand new course "The Desire Bundle" ▼ Connect with Esther ▼ Blog → https://www.estherperel.com YouTube → ‪@estherperel‬ Instagram →  @estherperelofficial Facebook → @esther.perel ▼ Get My Latest Dating Tips and Connect With Me… ▼ Blog → https://www.matthewhussey.com/blog/ Facebook → @coachmatthewhussey Instagram → @thematthewhussey Twitter → @matthewhussey

Hey everyone, welcome back to the Love Life Podcast. I know you're going to love today's guest. Many of you already know and love her. Her name is Esther Perel. Before we get into this episode, I want to tell you about an event I have going on on the 22nd of October. It is an online global event for people all over the world who want to know how in today's crazy dating landscape can I actually get commitment, a real relationship. Whether you're single and keep running into emotionally unavailable people or whether you're already seeing someone and you don't know where it's going, this event is going to give you the answers to getting the commitment you really want. Come join us in this event that is going to help you

actually get the relationship you want. I promise you this is not going to be a bunch of philosophy. It's actually going to be very practical solutions, things you can do to move things forward with someone. All you need to do to join us is go to lovelifetraining.com. You can register there in seconds for free. And I will email you a private link where you can join us on the day on October the 22nd. That link again is lovelifetraining.com.

I will see you over there and enjoy today's episode of Love Life with Esther Perel. Welcome back, everybody, to the Love Life podcast with me, Matthew Hussey, and today I have something very, very special for you. This is one of the, in my opinion, absolute powerhouses out there in the world of psychotherapy, in the world of love and relationships, in the world of desire and sexuality and eroticism. Her name is Esther Perel. She is a psychotherapist, a New York Times bestselling author, and is recognized as one of today's most insightful and original voices on modern relationships.

She helms a therapy practice in New York City and serves as an organizational consultant for Fortune 500 companies around the world. Her celebrated TED Talks have garnered more than 40 million views and her best-selling books, Mating in Captivity and The State of Affairs, are global phenomena translated into more than 30 languages. Esther is also the host of the hit podcast, Where Should We Begin? A podcast I personally love, which is available on Apple Podcasts. Her latest projects include Where Should We Begin? A Game of Stories with Esther Perel,

as well as the online courses, Bringing Desire Back and Playing with Desire, both of which you'll hear a little bit about at the end of today's episode. You can learn more about Esther at estherperel.com or by following at estherperelofficial on Instagram. But now we have the rare privilege of having her here in person in the Love Life Studio. So without further ado, I present to you the Esther Pot. So hello and welcome Esther. Thank you, it's so good to be back. It's so good to have you. Five years ago.

Five years ago. I was, I think I was single. Yes, you were. You don't have to think, I can tell you. I certainly hadn't met Audrey at that point and it's fun for you to walk in and meet her today. I mean, it's really a pleasure to see people's life develop alongside their work and how it changes, how the work changes their personal life and how their personal life influences their work. Yeah, yeah. Do you feel like that's happened to you in the last few years? Has there been a specific way that your life has influenced your work in the last five years since we saw each other yes yes i think that um probably one of the most important ways my life evolved i can't say it was completely new but it became an essential part is that it became

more and more communal first of all the pandemic then some health issues that we were dealing with. And so the concept of, you know, it takes a village became very, very real for us. And I've always written about it, but then to live it changes the way I write and talk about it. Do you feel, have you always been a sociable person who's good at creating that village? Or has been a skill you've learned no over time no i kind of was born with that temperament um i've always been not just i'm a social person but i've been the creator

of a lot of the social hubs i love to connect people um I find it a magnificent fun puzzle. You know, who would be interested in meeting who? Who should talk to who? Who could create with whom? You know, and a lot of people in my circle will say that they've met through me or through us. But it's a pleasure. It's something that I do without much thought. It's like somebody who cooks and you look at them and they know exactly what they need to put in

and you say, what's the recipe? They say, no, no, a little bit of this and a little bit of that. And it's just so artful and so intuitive. I think I have a little bit of that in the relational sphere. I feel like it took me, I've always been something of an introvert and it always and when I was younger I was more shy too um still an introvert less shy it took me a little longer I think to kind of really connect to the value of relationships which is ironic given you know what I've spent my life doing but it you know i think

in my in my 20s certainly i just didn't i you know i i think i was so you know on a mission that i neglected relationships to a large extent but that is not necessarily because you're an introvert i mean i think one of the big misunderstandings is that we assume that introverts don't care about relationships. They do. They do often, plenty. But they replenish more often by themselves. They fill up the tank alone,

and then they can go into the world. But that doesn't mean that they don't like the world and that they don't value relationships. They may not value necessarily the presence of large groups. And I think that often when we think of introverts, we think people who, you know, relationships don't matter to them. And I keep being told that that's not the case. So I want to spread that message.

I always was good at having one or two or three key people in my life. That was always the case. But I think I was a little more passive when it came to really investing in a wider circle, investing in other relationships. Did you let them do it? I think I took for granted the ways that people were trying with me a lot of the time. And I think that what ended up happening in some of my relationships was just a lack of reciprocity. You know, almost like you could use the excuse the excuse of like oh well you know

we're the kind of friends that when you haven't seen each other in a year you pick right up from where you left off and i i understand that concept but it can be a bit of a cop-out because it can be an excuse not to actually invest you're the person i would ask to you're that person then that i would ask who do you owe a phone call to who have you been meaning to connect with but have neglected because you keep thinking we're friends anyway i can do this anytime who do you owe an apology to who do you know has gone through a rough time and a text that says one sentence isn't enough? And I have yet to meet someone who actually then follows up on this

and says that was a waste of time. Well, I think the interesting part is that that behavior often comes off as cold or indifferent to the person on the other end but it actually internally for me a lot of it I realized went hand in hand with underestimating how much of an effect I could have and what shocked me more in recent years was the extent to which that phone call or that text mattered. Yeah.

And I don't think that I ever really, there was an aspect of it in my 20s that was selfish, certainly. But I think there was also a feeling of it doesn't matter. That's not going to make any difference. And I've come to realize what an extraordinary difference it does make for people agreed agreed I always feel like I have so much to talk to you about you know you and I um I you know I hope we can talk more frequently in the future because every time I speak to you I'm like oh my god I have too many questions for the time that i'll follow you and i was thinking about what i wanted to ask you today and i kind of we're going to traverse

lots of different areas but there was a quote that i pulled from you that says in order to want sex it needs to be sex worth wanting wanting means anticipation looking forward to the anticipation that you're going to experience something pleasurable, that you're going to feel connected to yourself, to a partner or partners, that it's going to be enjoyable and intimate. of people will hear that and go well yes i'm in a situation where it feels like the sex isn't worth wanting and what constitutes sex worth wanting it's a beautiful question you know there's a early on in my show i ask people if they have ever had a sexual encounter that was also unsatisfying but they went along with it anyway and they said nothing and thousands of people get up and then i just kind of look around and i just say you look around too it's very much an equal opportunity answer and the amount of bad sex in the room is staggering and men put their hands up too you would there's it's equal

opportunity it's so clear now it's half laugh we laugh it's it's funny it's but but it's not because everybody knows exactly in that moment everyone has an encounter in their mind everyone drops in into a situation and i think that the the reason I'm so clear on this wanting is because sexuality is in relationships. For most of history was organized around duty and obligation of women. Nobody cared what they felt, if they liked it, if they didn't. If you wanted 10 kids, you needed to have 12. A few were not going to make it. So sexuality was linked to reproduction and to a woman's marital duty.

And we switched the concept in the West, we've switched the concept of duty to desire. I want to. Desire is to own the wanting. That's one of the many ways to define it. And how, therefore, do I want to. Desire is to own the wanting. That's one of the many ways to define it. And how, therefore, do I want? And what does wanting mean? And what is it that I actually want? So sometimes people say, these people are not interested in sex. And I'm thinking, really? Or is it that they're not interested in the sex they're going to have and what does that mean it's foregone conclusion it's boring it's painful it's disconnected it's um it's a five minute drive by it's uh uh it leaves them feeling empty

um it leaves them feeling worthless i mean there's so many negative consequences there's so many beautiful experiences but there's a long list of things for which people can just basically say why bother i don't want this and that is without even talking about early trauma histories of abuse so then i'll tell you the next one because i i wanted to translate that sentence in order to want it needs to be worth wanting into a real experience so i ask also in the show at one moment for people to turn on their phones and i ask them put your phones up if sexuality was central in your family life growing up and very few people put their phones up because by association we think central means we talked about it there was affection between my

parents I had good sex education etc but then. But then you say, I'm going to ask you this question like this. If it was hidden or forbidden or taboo, put your phone up. If there was violation or abuse or misuse, and if there was infidelity, put the phones up. And then you look around, and then you have the entire theater with their phones up. And you just say, sexuality is a lot more central than we typically acknowledge. Look around, you know. Every light represents what many of us hold alone in our internal darkness.

And that story makes people not want it's not worth wanting because all of these memories all of these experiences may stand in the way i often accompany this by saying sex isn't just something you do you don't think about performance and outcome it's an experience that is basically about pleasure and connections it's not about having kids then there needs to be another reason and that usually means pleasure and connection of some sort and then you ask how do you find it what is it that you want to connect with inside of you or with another person what do you express there you talk about languages that i speak i think a lot in languages for me sexuality is a language it's actually a coded language for your deepest emotional needs not for your sexual needs your sexual needs and preferences

all translate deep emotional wishes and yearnings and fears and wounds it's like dream language why do you like this most people have no idea why they like this and why is it that the thing you like so much you partner find so gross you know it's like how do we come up with these things that we so enjoy and i'm not talking about the the touching behind ear. I'm talking in the broad sense. Do you want, do you experience sexuality as a place where you want to experience transcendence, spiritual union, you know, deep connection? Is it for fun? Is it to experience yourself as finally not having to be a good, responsible citizen?

You know, is it a place where you can be naughty and mischievous? Is it a place where you can surrender and be taken care of? Is it a place where you can be safely powerful? These dynamics, they are all in our relationships and they all get translated in this other language called sexuality. If you don't want, you won't be present. If you're not present, you won't be present if you're not present it won't be good but we are trained to accept bad sex men even more than women because they're supposed to want it all the time and take whatever they can get so in that sense i mean there's no winner and there's no you get. So in that sense, I mean, there's no winner in this ugly competition.

People accept a lot of situations that are deeply compromised, that are unpleasant, that are lonely, and they accept it in their relationships. We're not talking about your hookup night which could even be better sometimes when you speak about all of those things everything i hear is comes back to our ability well once we get to the point of starting to maybe connect more to ourselves and our own desires and wishes so much of it comes down to our ability to actually communicate communicate and to foster an

environment in a relationship where that kind of communication can even take place and i i don't know what the percentages would be on the number of couples who are actually able to communicate on that level, but it cannot be high. I mean, interestingly, a major reason for creating these courses was to help people find the language and then the communication to a partner or partners it's very clear that this is this is a lot and people tell me and i found a way to talk about it but before you can talk about it you have to have a level of self-awareness you also have to have a level of do i know myself how can people start to get that because a lot of people feel very disconnected from their bodies. They feel disconnected from their sexuality. They certainly don't feel sexy. And I think there's a kind of a, there's a stereotype that women need to feel sexy in order to have sex. But I think that's just true of women. I think the moment a guy feels like, you know, he doesn't feel desirable or he doesn't like himself when he looks in the mirror or his confidence is low, I think that affects men's sex drive the same way.

This is very important what you just said. I think the, I mean, you know, a big chunk of what I do is debunking myths. And one of these myths is that, you know, men, by definition, want it. They want sex all the time. They are in perpetual motion in search of an outlet. And nothing matters. And what you say is that the interior life of men is deeply connected to their sexuality. If the fear of rejection, the fear of not being able to perform the fear of

not knowing what the partner if it's a female partner in particular is actually experiencing their sense of self-esteem their depression their sense of self-worth all these things are major influencing factors on male sexuality never acknowledged I think, I just want to reiterate what you just say, because it's one of these things that we know, but the popular culture does not support it, and wants men, especially young men, to really think that there is nothing internal involved as long as they have unprompted, spontaneous erections,

they can just get going. Yeah. I feel validated from you that you verify that. And the research stands behind it. This is not just even an observation. There's plenty of research that supports this and that should be part of education. So part of what you ask is how do you communicate? It's an interesting...

And actually, before we even get onto that, how can people get more connected to this part? And maybe partly it is communication, but for men and women, how can they get more connected to their own sexuality? You know, we have a lot of people who are in long-term relationships who have become disconnected from it but we also have many many people who have come out of a divorce and are in their 40s 50s 60s who are saying i i didn't feel visible in that relationship for a very long time, for in some cases decades. I have not felt like a desirable person for a very long time in my life. How I don't even feel like I'm a sexual being anymore.

What is your advice to people to get reconnected? Right, right. It's a great question. i think to to answer this i need to distinguish between sex and eroticism because many people may have had sex throughout these years that you're describing because we are used to having sex sometimes and feel nothing may women have done this for centuries so you can do a lot of sex and feel very little but in the erotic you can do very little and feel a lot and that thing the erotic is the is basically the poetics of sex is the meaning we give to it not just the act the physical act so it's when people experience a sense of aliveness, vibrancy, vitality, energy,

curiosity, imagination, playfulness. That's what makes it erotic. Just getting it done, it works. I mean, people tell me it worked. I said, what do you mean? We both come. And then? Then what? How is it? What's the experience? It works. It's a performance with an outcome. And this is supposed to be, you can have someone who can no longer touch you, but they see you with eyes. And through the power of your imagination,

you know everything about how they would want you at that moment. And the experience is 10 times more intense. That is the erotic, okay? It's sexuality that is transformed by our imagination. So I don't try to get people to get it done. I don't try to just get people to do it. I try to get people to feel something, to experience something. And that starts with things that are not per se sexual you know just this i'm doing this right now my hand is on my knee

so now i would say to someone in my office who's doing this i say now go a lot slower go a lot slower and make sure actually just hover it's what jaya calls energetic touch and just hover over don't touch don't touch and just imagine your hand and now slowly let it just touch very you know this is your skin your skin is your biggest sexual organ and before you can respond to the touch of another, imagine that you touch you. And if you want, you can also wrap yourself. And you can hold yourself. And you can protect yourself. And then if you want, you can go inside the shower and just pay attention.

Where do you like the water? Where is the contact of the water the most precious place for you? And I want you to stay there for two minutes. And as you stay there, you just expand your breath. Because this is pleasure. I mean, I can give you dozens of those, but it's this. And now you're going to go drink your coffee. Tell me, how quickly do you drink that cup?

And do you actually sit when you drink that cup? I want you to put an egg timer and i don't i would like you to not drink it any faster than the four minutes of the egg timer slow down it will increase your self-awareness it will increase your connection to yourself etc etc and all of this is sexual but people think that you know they come with an idea that you're going to do something very different it's really interesting to hear you describe that in a um individual context because one of the things i've been talking about for for many years when people say on a date you know i'm i the the thing i hear from a lot of people is matt you know

i'm i can talk to people i'm a really good talker i you know i i can have a conversation with someone for hours and i'm like yeah i get like that i understand i understand you can talk you can keep a conversation going but when you're with someone in someone's presence the the there are these subtleties to what actually allows you to whether you call it flirting whether you call it seduction whether you and so much of that is pace if you can just slow when i watch people on a date and anytime i've done it you know they've put me on many tv shows where they have a i have an earpiece and I watch people on the camera and the people that don't connect on any kind of a sexual level are always moving very fast. Their gestures, the way they ask questions, the way they have conversations, there is a speed, a frenetic nature to it. But they don't always know it.

Yeah. Oh, they almost never. I say, you know, go from here to here. The slowest possible. Or go all the way up your arm. And close your eyes. And they think that they are still here. But their fingers are there. So the beauty of it is to actually say,

and then they open their eyes and they realize, wow, it's got nothing to do with where they open their eyes and they realize, wow, it's got nothing to do with where I thought I was. All right, we're going to do this again. We're going to slow it down and we're going to intensify the breathing. It's the breath, the movement, and the blood flow. It's all three. I did a session once with 200 men alone. And basically, I finally had someone who said, so what's 200 men alone, and basically,

I finally had someone who said, so what's your piece of, you know, what's your one thing? It's always the one. And in the end, out of everything I could say, I just say, slow down. Slow down. But there was a couple I remember one day that i was working with and he he was struggling with rapid ejaculation and and basically he spent his whole time making sure it works you're gonna hold you're gonna stay you know don't surprise me don't and in effect he was

completely disconnected from his partner because he was so busy making sure you know and at one point i said just put your hands in her hair and just i mean she asked i said where she said my hair i said okay now just go as slow as slow as slow as possible and connect with her doesn't matter what's happening here right now because what's happening here right now that you are busy so much paying attention to is doing nothing for her what it's doing for her is just making it look like you're absolutely not with her and as he was holding and slowly she sat then she closed her eyes and then she her lips opened like that and i said this this is a response this is real touch this is connection don't let your penis make the decision you decide i love that idea that your focus on that is doing nothing for her like this is operating in a world of its own on its own timeline but it's disconnected from

the pace the way that you're touching her the way you're making sure it works is not giving her any pleasure yeah yeah i love that before i get to my last question you you have two programs that i know you're you have together as a bundle right now i'd love to just talk about them because what i love about your work is not just the obvious depth of understanding of everything that you do, but that you have painfully taken time to think about what the practical implications of all of this work is and how people can apply it. Could you talk about these two programs and how they practically kind of, they give people a real roadmap for applying everything we're talking about today.

So the desire bundle came out of the realization and the need that people said, I read your book, I listened to the podcast, what can I do? And I also think that not all of this needs to be done in a therapist office. This is what can the therapist bring to you into your home that you can try. And then you'll know if you need more than this, then you'll come to therapy. But a lot of these things are,

I'm going to help you sustain something. Enter this conversation, create a certain energy, be proactive. And especially have the conversations that you don't even know to have. So it's very practical. There's an hour-long video and then there's workbooks. And these workbooks are, you know, in-depth.

Here are the exercises that I would do with you if we were working together. And that you can do alone or with each other. You can take them as couples and you can take them alone. You can take them alone because you are in a relationship but you want to do it by yourself or this is where you are at in your life at this moment. Your sexuality is still a part of you whatever relationship situation you're in. And the first one, bring desire back,

is really for when people are just so stuck that there is not even a conversation possible at all or there is a non-stop chronic complaint but it's a terrible conversation so it's really about helping people get unstuck if i had renamed this thing it would be getting unstuck and because that's the hardest place from for people to to leave you know i he one person never stops talking about it, the other one doesn't want to hear about it, all of these these impasses. And then the second one, playing with desire is really how do we bring back more energy, more intensity, more juice, make it less routine, make it more creative, more fun. And so I wanted this to distinguish these two, because there's no point in telling

people the fun they can have when they're at each other's throat or when they're just in silence or when each one is alone in their corner or when one person feels deeply rejected by the other or when there has been an affair and there has been betrayal. I mean, there's a ton of situations in relationships, more even than the list we had before. So it's practical, it's simple. You don't do everything at once.

You can take one question. I ask you a lot of these questions. Take one and just go with that. You don't have to swallow the whole thing whole thing whole what suits you now but it's available for you for years to come every time you feel a dip you just say let me go see what Perel has to say she have an idea here you know I I want to do something different tonight I want to you know what can I how can I bring this up and then you go and you you do like it's okay like the tarot cards you pick one you don't have to do the whole course all the time it's very you know

my books are i know that when people finish reading them people often say and now what do i do so these are a few things that i think you can do. It's not the whole thing, but it's a good start. Yeah. Everything that you do is such a beautiful blend of the idea and then the practical application. So I know people are going to get so much out of these. They can find them at your website, estherperel.com. That's right. And when they're there, is there anything specific they should search?

The desire bundle? That's it. The desire bundle. It will appear large so we also have a promo code for anyone who wants to get these programs it's hussy 15 so for everyone out there who wants to get these two programs the desire bundle hussy 15 is our audience's promo code uh so go check those out. And I'm really, really excited to know what you think of these. I'm, you know, Esther, I have a core of people that over the years I have quoted ad nauseam. And Esther is one of those people that I think I've probably referenced more than anybody

else. So it's a true privilege to be able to bring you Esther's work. I know that so much of the ground that you cover is for people who are in relationships. But if we go all the way to the beginning of the dating process for so many people, one of the most common complaints I experienced from people is I don't meet people I'm attracted to. I don't feel chemistry, you know, and the story either goes that, you know, there's something wrong with everybody else or that there's something wrong with me. I'm broken because I just never get attracted to people. And usually the people they get attracted to tend to be the people who then treat them horribly. And so there's a kind of pattern there too, that, you know,

I've never, I haven't been attracted to anyone in the last three years. And then the person I got attracted to turned out to be the toxic narcissist who destroyed the next year of my life um i i just wonder i suppose it's a big question but i wonder if you have anything that you would zero in on for people who are out there dating and at least their outward wish is that they could meet someone who is a good human being who treats them well that they also feel a sexual chemistry with an attraction for do you see there being from your vantage point a very any specific reason why that is or what people can do about it from the point of view of arousing almost more desire within themselves for a broader range of people when they're actually on dates with people i think that maybe one of the things that's just to start is to kind of situate myself a little bit right i've do this for almost 40 years i do it all over the world um

a lot of the things i say sometimes i put in the context of relationships because i'm a couples therapist primarily but i work with individuals early adulthood on straight couples gay couples queer people trans people i mean it actually, and they are their unique things, but it's a broad thing. I think that when it comes to the dating people, if the majority of Western dating at this moment is often app-based, at some point,

I'm going to go and meet someone i'm often gonna go meet that person in a noisy bar where i'm gonna try to have a conversation that looks more like a job interview and i'm gonna look inside here down and check to see if the butterflies are actually signaling me and it is the opposite of any way attraction actually is created i mean or the chemistry there is nothing there is no context for the chemistry chemistry takes place in a context in a situation a situation where people are experiencing something together that is fun, that is interesting, that is deep, that is surprising, that is imaginative. And those elements are rather absent of the initial dating. So people say, you know, I didn't feel anything. Oh, excuse me, but on what basis did you?

Was there something that could even ignite any feeling? Did you run to a movie that you were just about to miss? Did you go in a club to dance and you suddenly discovered the band that you had never heard before? Did you find yourself, you know, rollerblading or skateboarding or whatever your thing is and noticed something? There is nothing in a static position of you, like you and I sitting now, the way we do, that would ignite desire or arousal or attraction or fantasy. Because what it is, is the attraction is is a fantasy i sit in front of you

and i try to begin to imagine what's his name how does he touch you know what would it be like what's underneath his clothes you know i'm like i like to i like sitting here i like how i feel about myself as i talk to this guy i i'm curious about him ah i, I'd like to see what happens. It's a fantasy attraction. It's not just a physical, physiological, chemical response. It goes mind and body. But if you are in a sterile situation, you're not likely to feel much attraction. So much of what I say to people is, God forbid your first date should be that. What would be, if you could reorganize dating for people

and the way people date, what would you do? I'd do a lot of things. The first thing I would do is tell people, especially those who've been at it for a while, stop living your life to go on a date where you tell your friends, I have a date tonight. And you live your life. And if you had three dates this week,

so that's three nights you've not been with the people that you actually care about that care about you with whom you enjoy being no you went to try your luck at the lottery and bring those dates into your life we created something very weird here and you know i meet somebody i go out with you for a few weeks a few months and then comes the big reveal and i bring you to my friends you know, I meet somebody, I go out with you for a few weeks, a few months, and then comes the big reveal. And I bring you to my friends, you know, bring the person over. You will have a ton of data points. I was planning to go, you know, do a picnic in the park.

I was planning to go for a hike. I was planning to go mountain biking. I was planning to go see this exhibit. Would you like to join? Like, as in, I was planning to go with friends or i was planning with friends and alone too same thing but especially with friends but even alone it's something that you actually had an interest in doing yes i was gonna go do this would you like to join me you will have first of all you will experience something together you'll be in a

situation then you'll see how this person interacts with everybody else around. Then if that doesn't work, you're not going back with that pit in your stomach to your friends to say, didn't work. What is fuck is going on in my life at this point? This is terrible. I have yet met many people who are telling me they're having a fabulous time on the apps dating. I mean, it's not a fun experience. That doesn't mean people haven't met there lots of

people do but the experience itself can be quite degrading and exhausting so i don't understand this idea of leaving your life going to try your luck and then coming back you know with this emptiness to say nothing happened keep your life and bring these people into your life and they should do the same. You learn so much more. Plus, this face-to-face in the first date is not always the best way. Side-by-side is very interesting. We both are looking, picking up things.

We're on the street. Did you notice this? Did you know, you know, whatever. Whatever the situation, it doesn't really matter the situation. It's just that you need the world to interact with. And that at first people look at me like, but you're going to bring those people? Yes, just don't say, there's this person I'm meeting for the first time.

I thought it would be way more interesting to hang with all of you and bring that person along. And when they begin to do it all of you and bring that person along and when they begin to do it it's not nearly that scary but to me the split between our life and our dating is problematic but you already i think highlight uh what you just said is already going to be revealing for some people in what might be harming their love life which is that that life you're talking about that they're bringing that person into contact with albeit in a you know a way that's not too much is a life that a lot of people don't have already they don't necessarily have correct social occasions that are happening in their life or

close friendships that they feel comfortable bringing someone into or in a lot of cases even activities that they themselves enjoy doing and i think so many so much of that comes to back to why they feel that they need to be rescued from the life they have by this person who comes along is because that world doesn't exist so if you are that lonely and you go on a date and you hope to experience attraction when at the same time you're also hoping that the person will help you transcend your aloneness then you will feel so vulnerable that you will often not allow yourself to be attracted the attraction becomes too vulnerable because with the attraction come all the needs that i bring to you of everything that i hope you will be able to bring to me or they they that vulnerability causes them to cling immediately

try to move so fast without ever really assessing whether there's the right kind of attraction correct um correct you get both on the extremes you get both yes yes when it comes what do you think of my advice for the dating actually i'm curious it's just one thought but that it's one that i've kind of stayed with for a while i i have i actually think we have a lot of overlapping thoughts here because firstly i used to talk about a great date as being park bench style not dinner style yeah even if you have to if you must sit at a table with someone try to sit on a corner together not facing each other or sit at the bar i always say because at least you'll be interacting with the room i am a big fan of walking dates or dates

where you're focused outwards movement movement i'm a huge fan of walking dates or dates where you're focused outwards. Movement. Movement. I'm a huge fan of that. Even if you, you know, I sometimes think of London and, you know, start at one end of the Thames, you know, by the, it was the start by the Tate Modern and work your way up to the London Eye. And you'll walk along the riverbank. If you want to stop and get a drink somewhere, you can, but then you come out and you keep walking and find somewhere else. Like that has all the potential for an amazing date. Yes, yes, yes, same idea. I think the interesting thing, I used to say, have a drink with someone before you go meet your friends.

So, you know, if you say to someone, hey, I'm going out with my friends this evening, but do you want to come and grab a drink with me first? And that allows the date to be 30 minutes or three hours. Because if you're having a great time with someone, you can say, hey, look, you're more than welcome to come join me and my friends. And if it's not going great, you can leave pretty quickly. It's also a low pressure way of doing it. So I actually think your idea is really interesting of the group setting,

as long as you can play it off as like, not a big deal to you. Because people take their cues from you. And if you make it a big deal, like you're meeting my friends, then suddenly that's going to feel like an intense thing for them. But I think if you can play it off,

like actually I'm going on a hike with a couple of friends, you're welcome to come join. I think that's a nice feel like an intense thing for them. But I think if you can play it off like, actually, I'm going on a hike with a couple of friends, you're welcome to come join. I think that's a nice way of doing it. It's a seamless integration of this. And I like that idea of getting more data points. Because people do isolate their dating life from everything else, all of the other anchors in their life.

That's correct. And that also makes it hard for you to read who this person really is or how they interact when they're not in front of the very one person they're trying specifically to impress and often seduce but also all of this prevents you from getting attracted you get attraction from watching someone, from how they act, how they, you know. This is one of the things I love that you say, is the idea of watching, like even in long-term couples. There's a Proust quote that I always love. And I don't know if you've ever said it, but in my mind, I always connect it with your work on love and desire. But it's the idea of...

It's about looking with new eyes. Yeah. Exactly. it with your work on love and desire but it's the idea of it's about looking with new eyes yeah yeah exactly the journey of discovery lies not in seeking new landscapes but in in seeing with new eyes and i always love that idea of in a long-term relationship the moment the two of you go back to a dinner party when you haven't been out in a long time or a social gathering and you get to observe your partner over there holding court with a few people that that allows you to freshly see them with new eyes again thank you so much for listening to this interview with Esther Perel here on the Love Life podcast I really hope you enjoyed it if you want to send me an email about how much you enjoyed it

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