Love Life with Matthew Hussey - 300: Letting Go of the Life You Thought You’d Have: Grief, Truth, and Rebuilding Connection w/ Mary Fisher

Episode Date: June 11, 2025

In this episode, Matthew sits down with artist, activist, and author Mary Fisher (@maryfisher), whose landmark 1992 speech at the Republican National Convention changed the face of AIDS awareness and made her a global icon of truth-telling and compassion. Now in a new chapter of her life, Mary reflects on what it means to grieve not just people, but old lives, family, identity, and the loss of a place in the world. Together, she and Matthew explore how we rebuild, find chosen family, use creativity to heal, and speak up after a lifetime of being told to stay quiet. This conversation is for anyone feeling disconnected, disempowered, or unsure of how to move forward when life has drastically changed. Mary’s words are a reminder that it’s never too late to reinvent your life, speak your truth, and create beauty from pain.   Topics Covered: The distinction between grief and depression—and how naming grief gave Mary her life back What it feels like to lose family who are still alive, and how to navigate that emotional terrain How to build a chosen family when your biological one isn’t safe or supportive The courage behind Mary’s 1992 speech and how mortality shifted her priorities Why radical honesty can be the foundation for deep connection Finding the right level of vulnerability early in relationships How to let go of the fantasy of who someone was “supposed to be” Creating through pain—how art and creativity became her medicine Learning to speak up after a lifetime of silence, guilt, and being told to “be a good girl” How to rewire your inner voice and create safety to be heard Understanding the difference between connection and one-sided emotional dependence in relationships   Resources & Links: Mary Fisher’s new book: Uneasy Silence Mary’s website: MaryFisher.com Instagram: @maryfisherart Project Angel Food (charity supported by Mary’s book): angelfood.org   Matthew AI (24/7 coaching): AskMH.com Join our retreat in October: MHRetreat.com

Hi, I'm Richard Karn, and you may have seen me on TV talking about the world's number one expandable garden hose. Well, the brand new Pocket Hose Copperhead with Pocket Pivot is here, and it's a total game changer. Old-fashioned hoses get kinks and creases at the spigot, but the Copperhead's Pocket Pivot swivels 360 degrees for full water flow and freedom to water with ease all around your home. When you're all done, this rust-proof anti-burst hose shrinks back down to pocket size for effortless handling and tidy storage. Plus, your super light and ultra

durable pocket hose copperhead is backed with a 10-year warranty. What could be better than that? I'll tell you what, an exciting radio exclusive offer just for you. For a limited time, you can get a free pocket pivot and their 10-pattern sprayer with the purchase of any size copperhead hose just text water to 64,000 that's water to 64,000 for your 2 free gifts with purchase w a t e r to 64,000. But texting 64,000 you're going to receive a career automated marketing messages from pocket hose message iterates may apply no purchase required terms of line available

pocket hose dot com slash terms. I find that being as honest as I can possibly be when I meet someone that I care that I think I'm gonna care about that I'm tell the truth. What does that look like? Well, that level of honesty early on in a relationship. It's scary. I think it's very, very scary. What is the I'm gonna get really nitty gritty. Okay, go nitty gritty on me. I'm gonna get really nitty-gritty here. Okay, go nitty-gritty on me.

Welcome back to the Love Life podcast everybody. Really special guest today. I'm excited to talk to you about this woman before we get into the show. If you haven't already, go check out my free training, Dating with Results. This is for anybody who is out there looking for love, taking love seriously, wanting a real relationship but struggling with the dating culture out there that is fraught with situationships, people who are not serious, people who waste your time, manipulate or just toxic in the way that they

approach the process. If you want to find real love and you want a better way of doing it, go watch this free training right now. You can watch it at datingwithresults.com. It's completely free. Hundreds of thousands of people have now been through this training and you can too. So go to datingwithresults.com and check out that training while it's still available. Today on the Love Life podcast, I am honored to be joined by a woman whose courage and voice have legitimately changed the world. Mary Fisher is an American artist, author and activist who became a global icon for HIV and AIDS awareness in the early 1990s. After contracting HIV through her marriage, she made history with her landmark speech at the 1992 Republican National Convention, an address that shattered

stigma, moved millions and redefined what it meant to speak truth with dignity. But Mary's legacy goes far beyond a single moment. Through her writing, public service and visual art, she has spent decades advocating for compassion, justice and the power of vulnerability. Her work has taken her around the world from Washington DC to Africa, bringing light to the darkest corners of the AIDS epidemic and reminding us what it means to live with purpose. In today's conversation, we cover a huge range of subjects from developing the confidence to speak up for ourselves, getting through life as a sensitive person, developing chosen family when you have to distance yourself from your own family,

how to build community, finding your voice when you've been taught your whole life to be quiet or play small, how to stop being intimidated by other people and how to get out of our own insecurity and truly make an impact on the people we meet. We also talk about her new book, Uneasy Silence, which tells her story of speaking truth to power while living with AIDS, journeying through cancer and surviving a near-death experience. Mary's story is a testament to how many different chapters there can be in a fully lived life. I trust you will finish this conversation a little more inspired, a little more courageous, and ready to live life a little larger.

I present to you, Mary Fisher. Mary Fisher, welcome. Hello, welcome. Hello Matthew. Welcome to the Love Life podcast. This is exciting for me. We met through a very dear mutual friend, David Kessler. And I happened to be at his house for a celebration and you were there.

And that was the moment we met. Me and Audrey fell in love with you instantly. As did I, of both of you. So I remember having such a lovely conversation with you that day. And I remember distinctly a moment where David, we were going around the room and kind of telling stories of how we all knew each other. And David told this story of how you and him had met.

And I hope you don't mind me sharing. We'll cut it out if you do. I don't mind. And we'll get into this as part of your story, but in 1991, you were diagnosed as HIV positive. And what year was it that you met David? Let's see, it's 2025. It was 2023.

2023? Maybe. And so for those of you that don't know, David Kessler is, you know, the foremost expert in the world on grief. Yes. And if my memory serves me, he said, you came to him and said, I need you to help me die. That's true.

But let me just back up real quick on that because Boat Heath was one of the founders of Project Angel Food. And I had joined the board of Project Angel Food. So I had, and there are people there were saying the two of you need to get together and it hadn't happened. By the time it did happen, that's exactly what I said to him. And what did he say to you? He said, okay, why do you think you're dying? And we discussed. He said, well, I don't think you're as low as you may feel you are. I think you're grieving. And I found that to be, whoa, so, switch what's going on in my own brain, my heart, my body. Because I was really feeling,

which probably does happen when you have to take as many medications as I do, you know, up and down and up and down. And COVID hit me really hard. And I just thought, okay, it's time. I became a grandmother. That was great. I couldn't believe I was still here to do that. And so I wanted, I asked David if he would just help me ease out. But he said, I don't think you're dying. We've had a good laugh after that.

When that perhaps kind of switched you out of that gear, what did it mean for you to say, okay, well, if I'm not dying, then what does, what does it mean for me to live right now? Did you have an answer to that question? Yeah, because I, I feel I've had purpose in my life. I feel that I've always cared, worked for the other in my life. But when David said that to me, I thought, well, if I can look at it as if I'm grieving, and there's I'm grieving and there's some trauma and there's some things that I need to work on, maybe I can talk about this and do another book. So what, I don't know how much you have shared about this, but what did you realize you were grieving at the time?

Can you talk about that? I was grieving loss of family, loss of of community. And that was part of COVID, too, that did that, I'm sure. I was grieving being in a new city and not having connections and not not knowing people except, you know, through Project Angel Food and through helping others. But I felt like my bubble had been my children and my grandchildren, and that had been my bubble. And I still haven't quite figured out since I'm an East Coast person.

I haven't quite figured out North, South, East, and West here anyway, so it doesn't matter, I can't figure it all out. But I felt very alone. And I felt that it was... I also, I mean, it's interesting, your question is interesting to me because I sort of felt that if I was grieving, I could work with that.

If I was maybe not as depressed as I thought I was, maybe I had energy, and maybe I could think about the things that had bothered me or the way my family or growing up or whatever it was. And maybe I could say out loud what I thought and how would that make me feel. Some of that's political. Some of that certainly is the ability to have some, since I did work in politics for years and grew up in a Republican home and don't feel that that, I feel that the Republican party has left me. So a lot of those things were going around in my head during this time, and I was thinking

that maybe I just didn't have the energy for that. And David made me believe that I could, that I had energy, that I could do that. And that brought on'm now 77, so I'm, I'd say it's fairly old, but I mean, I was raised to just be quiet, just be a good girl. And it was in a family that that's what you were told. I want to come back to that idea of being brought up to be quiet and to fall in line and to be a good girl and what transitioning out of that looks like and what it looks like to find your voice over the years. But when you talk about the grieving of family, when you talk about grieving of family, you're not necessarily talking of family who have passed,

you're talking of family who are still here. Yes, and I, well, I did lose my mother, and that was huge for me because I think we were very, very connected. And I had a stepfather who passed even earlier. And so I felt like I had taken care of my mother her whole life and all of a sudden she was now gone. And I think that my world changed.

And that was part of the, I don't know, beginning of another depression. I do think that I don't know because I'm not a doctor, but I do think that there are some clinical probably things that happen when you have HIV and you have so much medication and maybe you go in and out of depression I don't know. But what did that grieving look like for you because we you know there will be so many people listening to this who find themselves grieving an old life maybe a marriage that it fell apart maybe a an idea of a relationship they thought they had, and it got revealed to be something else.

Grieving an old life in another city, with a community maybe that they don't any longer have. There will be people grieving so many different things right now, and maybe again, not even realizing they're grieving, maybe just thinking they're depressed. Right, right. And that they don't have any energy

and they're losing the will to go on. When you had that realization like, oh, I'm grieving, I'm grieving an old way of being or an old community, a family, a place, a different time. And even in your case, you know, at some point I imagine there was grieving the loss of political reference point that you connected to, that you no longer felt connected to.

What did the grieving process look like for you once you realized, oh, this isn't just, I'm not just gonna write this off as depression, this is grieving. How did it change things in terms of what you did next or how you handled those emotions? Two things. One was understanding that most of the time when I got quiet or felt quiet is when I would go, I'm an artist as well, and I would go to my art,

and I would make art, and I would be creative. And that always brought me to a very mindful, if I could use that word, place, but a quiet place, and a place that allowed my heart to sing. Because I feel, I was always an, I was an artist, I was a young seventh grader who started weaving. You know, I've always done art and it's- We have a piece of your art hanging up in our bedroom actually from the last, when we came to your book event, we took our piece home with us. I was so excited about that. I mean, I found that, and even that art was

not different than I had been doing, but it sort of looks different because it is in a book and now it's in a print and it's different. But textures and all of the things that you do when you watercolor and you weave or you do fabric and you dye fabric and you add fabric and you I made handmade paper and all those things. I didn't have my studio anymore because I had come here and I didn't have the ability to go big kind of thing. So for me, it was like, okay, I'm going small,

but I'm being creative. And that was a big part. The other part was getting out of myself to help the other. And that's where Project Angel Food helped me tremendously. Because I really know that service to others changes my life. It really does on a daily basis.

And sometimes I get too hung up on myself and then I realize that it's, look, go do something for somebody else. I feel better. It makes me feel better when I realize that it's not like I'm just facing a depression, but this is part of how I come out of my grieving. Besides, you know, a therapist, besides all of the work that you have to do to talk about trauma and the things in your life and to say, okay, I don't have to live with that anymore. I'm old enough to not worry so much about what you think of me, you know? I feel like I can say how I feel,

say what I think, and take care of others, build a community. Do you think that people can achieve that earlier in their life, that feeling of just not caring so much what other people think, and if so, what's the secret? I would wish that for everyone, And if so, what's the secret? I would wish that for everyone because I think that if I had had that goal earlier in my life, I think that I might have even done more. and being diagnosed as a young mother with two toddlers,

that changed my thinking about mortality. I had five years to live. That's what they expected, no medications, no nothing. And that does change the way you think about yourself. And my world at that point was so weird in a way, because I didn't know any women that were HIV positive. I didn't know, I knew the community, because I had many friends who had passed away,

and I had worked in the community. I had been working with substance abuse in women and a lot of these women were showing up HIV positive. So I knew it was happening, but I certainly didn't think it would happen to me. And when you were diagnosed, this was a time when people were terrified. Terrified, terrified.

And so were all of us who were diagnosed. People always wanted to know, where did you get it? How did you get it? What did it happen? Da da da da da da. You know, it was always where to put the blame so that they could take themselves out of the picture. So they didn't feel like they were in the firing line.

Right. And my biggest line, and whenever I spoke in speeches and stuff, you know, if it could happen to me, it could happen to you. You know, we have to teach our children. If we love our children, we have to give them the tools. You know, young people, this is the kind of conversations I would have in those days with young people when I went public and I could do this, was to tell them, you know, drinking is going to make you change the judgments that you have in your life and understand that you may make choices that will affect you for the rest of your life. Some things may be curable, HIV is not curable. And I would explain that. And we had an incredible amount of people who obviously thought that it didn't affect them,

or it didn't affect their children, or the people they knew. So I want to break this down because what was it that made you feel empowered to be vocal on a different level? Because there was there was a there was that famous moment of you at the Republican National Convention in 1992 and if I mean for everybody listening take a moment And if, I mean, for everybody listening, take a moment and just pull up on YouTube, Mary Fisher, Republican National Convention, 1992, because this was the first thing we did after that we met you. We went straight home and we watched that speech

and it blew us away to be saying that in the Republican National Convention of all places in 1992. It's extraordinary to watch and to see the faces and to see the applause you got. It was incredible. I'm just wondering, if you were to break it down for people, what gave you courage to actually be vocal and to not just hide away with this, but to say, I'm going to speak my truth. You've mentioned mortality as being one thing. And I think for everybody that sharpens their focus in a completely different way and changes the intentions around what they're doing. I'm curious how you think the rest of us can bring mortality into our lives in practical ways to get ourselves to be braver.

But what else outside of that aspect of it, would you say made you brave, made you able to speak your truth? Was it that you changed the intention away from self-preservation to making an impact? Was it that in a sense this thing was out there now, you'd already said it and so now it's like, well, I've got a lot less to lose now because it's already out there. So now what am I gonna be afraid of? Was it a combination of all of the above?

I'm just curious, because I almost wanna extract from this something that people can bring into their own lives in a way that could make them braver about having a louder voice. The ability to speak out was something that was, I didn't ever expect to be able to do that, especially in my family. And especially because I worked at the White House. I did television, but I was always in the background. I was a producer.

I did all these things. And it seemed at that moment in time when I had a friend or someone I'd met who said, we've been waiting for someone like you to help us. And she said, you're the woman. I said, yeah, you're the woman. I said, yeah, but I'm not. Magic Johnson had just also been

diagnosed like, you know, not Magic Johnson. But you're the person that can make a difference. And I did research and I talked to doctors and I talked to people in the press and I, you know, they weren't going to say anything. And my family was not very happy about all of this I must tell you and

Because of the way everybody thought about it and what about their children and what about you know How was I gonna make the family look I guess but there was it There was something that said to me that I didn't want my children to go to school. And when their teachers would say, what does your mom do or what did your dad do, that they would not be able to raise their hand and say, my mom has AIDS and she talks about it, or whatever, that they would feel the stigma that I felt so harshly in those days, for me and for so many other people.

I didn't want the stigma for them. And that was a push, that was pushing. And I also realized that it wasn't about me because I had it now. And maybe if this is true that women weren't talking about it, that maybe I could be a voice. I also had a wonderful mentor. Can I tell you that story about Betty Ford? You know, I had gone to them to tell them, I took the children and went to them and told them that I was diagnosed. They were so upset.

I had worked for President Ford in the White House and Betty had become a friend, a dear friend, and I wanted them to know that I was okay, the children were okay, and I don't know what it's gonna bring. And her voice to me was, once we finished crying and being angry and whatever else emotional that went on that day, she said to me, what are you gonna do for others? What are you gonna do for other women? What are you going to do for other women? How are you going to use this?

I thought, you know, she did this. She did this as well. Her alcoholism, her breast cancer, you know, she did it at a time when it was not fashionable or whatever to do it because that's how she felt. She taught me that. And I think with a lot of those kinds of things that go on top of one another it made me believe that maybe I could make a difference and that my children would be proud. Wow and that's what to me, what makes that so beautiful is that it's the, you couldn't rely on it, making your family proud.

No. And it wasn't something that was encouraged. There was a lot of resistance there. So to find somebody else that you wanted to make an impact on, to find somebody else that you could make it about, I think is really beautiful. You know, I work with a lot of people who in their love lives struggle maybe because of religion, maybe because of their culture, maybe the world they've come from, struggle with the disapproval of families and resistance and sometimes

even the threat of excommunication and if you choose this person or this life will have nothing to do with you and for some that's just too scary or the risk is too great and they'll lose too much, maybe too much support, they'll lose all the resources they have. There's so much at stake. Could you share some thoughts that might be helpful or relevant to people like that who feel like by making choices that are good for them, they will face resistance or worse from their family. I don't know if I have the perfect answer for that. I believe in my world, for me, that I had to create a chosen family because I needed support. And I would say to anyone who is going through that, that they need to find support

before they do make a split like that or make that decision. Because you wanna live your values, you wanna live your heart, and you don't wanna upset other people. But I guarantee you that there are other people out there that feel the way you do. Therefore, if you can find those people to help give you the way you do. Therefore if you can find those people to help give

you the support to do what is going to make you happy, what is going to make you smile and it's going to give you joy in your life. Question, do you have your tickets yet for the Matthew Hussey weekend retreat this October 18th and 19th in Miami Florida? This is a once only event that is happening this year for anybody who wants to truly break the patterns of a lifetime. We all have patterns that we feel hold us back. Patterns of thinking, patterns of behavior, the way we talk to ourselves. We all have ways that we hold ourselves back or sabotage anytime a good thing comes along or stop us from ever getting out there in the first place and finding that good thing,

whether it's in love, our career or anywhere else. The retreat is about truly unlocking your potential in life and And we do it in three ways. I show you how to rewire your patterns. I show you how to change that inner voice that constantly doubts and holds you back. And I show you how to regulate your emotions with practical tools that change your daily experience of living.

Because the quality of your emotional states is the quality of your life in any circumstances. Tickets for the retreat are available right now at mhretreat.com. We have in-person tickets which are very limited because there are only so many seats in the room in Miami and we have online tickets for anyone who can't make it. So go grab the ticket that makes sense to you. No matter what ticket you get, just make sure you're there. Tickets are available at mhretreat.com. Go and grab yours and let me know when you've got one. I can't wait to know who is coming. I'll see you there.

Could you speak to that idea of chosen family and what for you that looks like? Because a lot of people, I think especially these days, feel that they're almost worse at making new friends than they've ever been. And they really struggle with the idea of forming, because in a way the kinds of bonds you're talking about have to be strong enough that they really can support you. So it's unlikely to be the superficial connection you have with the person who happens to go to the same coffee shop as you unless you really develop that connection and it becomes something sturdy and something that you can rely on. But we live in a world today where so many people are very disconnected and we

live a lot online and there's, you know, we're addicted to our phones and we struggle more and more to make friends in the real world. So what does chosen family really look like to you? And how do you get there? How do you go from the only support system I know is the one that's also keeping me stuck and maybe in some cases incredibly toxic and keeping me mentally really psychologically unhealthy and yet not having a branch at this point because I don't even know how to get out there

and create a new community, create new friends. What is that? What are the practical steps people can take to actually build that? And what does it look like once you have it? How do you know you have it? It's huge, isn't it? It's huge. Yeah.

Well, I feel fortunate. I'm in AA and that helped me find incredible people. I had support of, I still have friends from high school that are still my friends. And I have friends that worked in the White House with me, they were still my friends. And I have, those are the people that were always there for me, they were still my friends. And I have, I have, those are the people that that were always there for me, especially when I was diagnosed, right there for me. And a lot of people weren't. And it was the superficial people that weren't. And it was

interesting. And I, and, and that taught me that, you know, these are the people I want around me. These are the people that I care about. So now, coming to a new community, I rely on the old community as part of my chosen family. I find that being as honest as I can possibly be when I meet someone that I think I'm gonna care about, that I'm tell the truth. What does that look like? Well, that level of honesty early on in a relationship? It's scary. I think it's very, very scary, but I think that you'll find if that person responds to you and

says something else that was maybe a he or she, can say, you know, that happened to me too. Let's talk about that. It's talking differently. I think it's sharing different things. It's sharing things that we might have gone through. And now that I'm older, I've gone through a lot of things. So it's being able to share those things with others.

And I think there's a piece of you in your gut that knows this person is caring about me. Maybe we could develop something here. What is the, I'm gonna get really nitty gritty here. Okay, go nitty gritty on me. What is the right level of vulnerability at that stage? You know you're just getting to know someone. You feel like you want closeness in your life. You want connection in your life. To your point you want to see what relationships

have the potential to be real and have depth ones where people see you and accept you. But there are also scenarios that are not hard to imagine where we meet someone and we kind of offload too much or share too much. And what is the right balance in your world? How do you find the right balance between not oversharing but also being truthful in a way that opens you up to a genuine connection. You came for all the easy questions today. Yeah, thank you so much.

Well, you know, obviously I haven't done well with my relationships in the past. But I think that as I got older, I learned that the relationships will build, but it may take a little bit longer than I think. And it may take that kind of time where you're going to spend a little bit more time with someone and ask hard questions or talk about difficult things instead of just talking about surface stuff. And I think then you can tell, then you know, and you say, I wanna go further with this person. And then you say that. I mean, I think being honest and saying,

I really would love to hear more about your life, hear more about your life, hear more about what you care about, because I like what's happening here. And that's the honesty I'm talking about. It's not like saying, boy, am I infatuated with you, because you're so cute and adorable and all of that. I'm talking about your heart and your soul. And I'm talking about where do we your soul. And I'm talking about,

you know, where do we come from that we have in common and what don't we have in common? But do we think the same way? Well, that's a really, that's a really interesting way of putting it, because you're right that that I actually think what you just said is what gets us out of the I actually think what you just said is what gets us out of the mode of worshipping someone, idealizing them, being infatuated because all of those things do I think live on, they tend to live on a more egoic superficial level. We see qualities in someone that we think are exciting, they seem shiny in some way, they're impressive. They're charismatic. They're charming. There's something about them that has got us worked up. But that, do we think the same way?

I was always taught it's more important how you think than what you think. And how lives at quite a deep level. Very. So, figuring that out about someone the way you just suggested, by speaking truth and wanting to hear about their truth, is a very, that's a very powerful place to come from in relationships. Sometimes I think, for me, it's not always about me. And it doesn't always happen because I'm looking for it I think

Living in a way that that For purpose in my life and for serving others and all of that I always find if I ask someone what I can do for them Sometimes takes puts them off off guard, but then it creates a different conversation. What do you need? What can I do for you? And I, I, I like doing that. That, that to me, Audrey has a phrase she loves, which is generosity of spirit. And that to me shows generosity of spirit. It's I'm getting out of my own head and what I need, because I think we go into relationships a lot,

whether they're friendships or romantic, we go in a lot sort of grabbing solutions to whatever ails us. Like I'm anxious, I need your reassurance. I feel lonely. I need you to make me Like, I'm anxious, I need your reassurance. I feel lonely, I need you to make me feel like I'm okay. And we go into so many relationships that way trying to get something.

And we sense that when someone is, we've all had that moment where we start to realize about a certain relationship, oh, you only call me when you need something, or you only call me when you're struggling. And the reason you call me is because I'm good at reassuring you, or because I'm really good at making you feel better. And there's nothing wrong with that, but you start to sense that pattern.

And it starts to become an unattractive quality in the other person when we realize that it's really always about their feelings. It's always about them. There isn't that generosity of spirit of someone calling you up and saying, I wanted to see how you're doing today. Well, and that will tell you, you know,

if you're talking about chosen family, you know, that would say, well, this person is fine, but you'll be there for them if they need you, but it might not be your chosen family. And admitting that to yourself is sometimes hard. Don't you think? I mean, you, you, you want it to be that person, but maybe it's not. Can you talk more about that? Because I know there's a lot of people listening right now who have someone

in mind when you say that, and they're really struggling to part ways with that person and the the story they've told themselves about how this person's no no no they're supposed to be right for me we're perfect for each other in the case of a romantic relationship or this person's my best friend and has always been my best friend. And is, you know, they have a story about the fact that this person who's always been their best friend is supposed to be their best friend forever. So, you know, we get attached to these ideas

we have in our head of who someone is supposed to be. And then it becomes very, very hard to part ways with that. So what do you say to those people? Well, I always think that, you know, supposed to be something is not necessarily what that thing is. You know, in person, maybe. But as I got older, I feel that way. When I was younger, I was that way. But it's supposed to be perfect. It's like all of that, because it has this, this, this, and this. But what truly gives you joy?

What truly makes you feel love? What truly makes you care? And if you can answer those questions about that person, then it's a different situation. I'm not a relationship, you're the relationship person. If I had known you 50 years ago, I think I would have made some different choices in my life. But seriously, I don't know that I'm one to,

I can only say how it's been for me. But seriously, I don't know that I'm one to, I can only say how it's been for me. But that, what it sounds like you've really authentically arrived at is a place of radical acceptance of how people are that are in your life instead of a constant clinging to what you hope they might have been. And I do think that that there's something incredibly liberating about making peace with the way people are. And it frees up so much energy

because the all that clinging drains us. You know, I sometimes, I don't know, it's probably a bad analogy for it, but it's a bit like surfing a wave and realizing that there are certain ways you can go that give you more momentum and more speed and keep you on the board. And there are other ways you can go that are going to make you crash. And I think radical acceptance is kind of a way of surfing in our relationships where you realize, oh, this person is never going to be that thing. So let me stop asking for that thing from them. Because they've never been able to provide that. And I keep trying to get them to provide that. And it's not within their capabilities, or they're not willing. So let me let me go a different direction

and of course now when you decide that you have all of this energy freed up for newness in your life and for people that actually might make really good candidates for that particular role that you're looking for. But you have no energy for that if you're burning out all the time. Well, and I also think, you know how we get into some relationships and we think it should be this way or it's supposed to be this way. And we tend to, you know, tell little white lies

or we, you know, we do things to make it better and to make it how it should be. But then can you think about a time when how wonderful it would be if you were always telling the truth and you never had to worry about what you were saying? Because you didn't lie. You didn't make it up.

So if you feel that comfortable in your life, you don't have to go and get that monkey brain in your head that says, did I tell that person that? Did I not tell that? You know I mean if you're just living your truth then you're really being good to yourself. Yeah. And you're being good to the people around you. I mean having a sense of humor helps. If you can have a sense of humor about yourself, I think that helps a lot. Yeah, yeah.

But I really believe it's about us being truthful with each other. And like you say, open up that other space. You're spending too much time, you know, trying to make something that isn't there. If you want immediate help from me for your love life or for any part of your life, you don't have to try to DM me on Instagram

or find a way to hire me as your private coach, which I do only a handful of private appointments in a single year these days. You can go and ask your question of Matthew AI, my brand new tool that is designed to either speak to you on the phone or by text 24 hours a day whenever you need it for as long as you want. We have people having multi-hour conversations with Matthew AI, lots of texts back and forth, whether it's the middle of the night because you can't sleep over anxious thinking about somebody whether

you're post breakup and you're dealing with the grief of losing a relationship or whether you just had a first date and you're trying to figure out what to text someone the next day. Matthew.ai is there to either help you know what to do, know what to say, figure out what something means, or move forward emotionally. This is like having my mind in your pocket whenever you need it. You can try it out at askmh.com.

We even have a free trial where you can try it for a few minutes, ask a few questions to see what it can do for you before you decide to get unlimited access. Go try it out at askmh.com How did you learn to kind of, you know, being from a family where you were taught to be quiet and having just released a book called Uneasy Silence? to be quiet and having just released a book called Uneasy Silence. What advice do you have

for people out there who are trying to develop their own voice, who are trying to almost rebel against the wiring that was started back in maybe childhood or informative relationships or in a marriage that really taught them to be quiet, to be background, to be a good girl as you put it, to, or that taught them their needs weren't valid. Like, you know, you'll be loved as long as you don't have too many needs. What do you say to people who want to start you'll be loved as long as you don't have too many needs. What do you say to people who want to start to step into a different level of worth and power at this point in their life,

even if they've spent a whole lifetime so far in the opposite? I don't think it happens all at once, Matthew. I think that you test it. And why don't you test it on one of the people that you know supports you? And say, you know, I really feel this way about that. Not what I told you, but this is how I really feel.

And see how they react. And these are the people that love you. And then you do one, and then you do another, and then you do another, and you start to say that, you know, I'm okay. I can do this. But it doesn't mean that it happens all like it, you know, you shift, you know, your life that fast.

It happens slowly and it happens with thought and it happens with honesty with yourself. I love that idea of teaching yourself, it's okay I can do this because you're saying, create a new reference point. And ideally create a new reference point in an area where it's safe to do so, or there's a relative safety.

Right. It may be with a therapist. It may be with someone that you've known for a long time. It may be with a family member that you can talk to and say, you know, I just would very much like you to keep this to yourself or something like that. And then see what happens. And then you know. And, but accepting the truth, being truthful, but also accepting the truth from other people is hard. And you gotta go, well, maybe I should think about this differently. It's hard when our nervous systems are, you know,

we're, the moment we speak, we're flooded with anxiety or guilt. Oh, guilt's a big one. Yeah, guilt's huge. Like I feel awful for saying no to that person or for speaking up or did I make someone else feel bad? Did I have I let someone down? At taking things too personally? Yeah. That too? Well, I don't know, strength

of the honesty it really helps that. Strength of thinking how the other feels really helps that. In what sense? Because you take it out of yourself. You get out of your way. Get out of your way. Get out of your own way. And realize maybe it's not all about me. Maybe it's about there's a bigger world out there. I mean, I can tell you that I've worked with people in all countries and helped women and helped empower them. And the things that they do is when they feel good about themselves, they make a change in their lives. If they're doing something, be creative. If it's something you've always wanted to do, do something for you. And then you can do something for someone else. But take it away from that necessarily, someone's going to make my life better.

What do you say to people who, would you describe yourself as a sensitive person? I would. Have you managed to kind of, to soften the impact of that for yourself? Have you managed to kind of the impact of that for yourself? Have you managed to kind of either desensitize yourself in certain ways or to stop the worst effects of being sensitive where things really wound you or you know it feels like things can get to you easily or have you found anything helps? I feel wounded by the world we're in right now. I feel terribly wounded because I don't agree with so much of the devastation that's happening. How do I feel better?

Go make something, knit something, create something. Talk to the people that I love. Talk to the people that I know care about me because I know they're probably feeling that same way. I wish I had a good answer for you. I think that's a good one. I think the idea of making something. I mean, for me, the most creative times in my life have generally been the times where I've been hurt the most or something has deeply, deeply wounded me.

In some cases, it's times where I've suffered what I think of as the biggest ego deaths. There's nothing left to hold onto ego wise because I've been flattened by something. You know, I've, you know, publicly failed or I'm publicly wounded or there's like nothing to hold. There's nothing for my ego to hold onto. And there's something very freeing about that

because from that place it's like now from this place of hurt or pain I can just create something. I can make something and I can try and make something helpful because if I'm feeling this then other people have felt this and how can I instead of trying to prove something to someone or impress someone what if I just used this pain to connect with someone? Exactly, I think that's exactly right. And I think that not separating yourself from other people

and not making small groups against each other and stuff like that, yes, use the pain, but if you can allow yourself to feel the pain, that's the biggest step first. And understand that, yeah, I made the wrong decision here. But it doesn't mean that I'm a bad person. I mean, I've made the wrong decision. Now, how can I make myself feel better?

It's not just forgetting about it, it's like getting through it. Let it get in there and get through it and that's maybe therapy. You know, maybe that's the best or a good friend that you can talk to. You've been around so many prominent people in your life and you've met a lot of very very powerful people, influential people. Do you find yourself still getting intimidated by people or less so these days? I probably am sort of normal that way. I get in not intimidated but like maybe in awe of people not intimidated, but like maybe in awe of people. And just like, wow, I'm grateful to be in the presence.

Well, that's different though from intimidated, right? I would say that's much more empowering because then you can just enjoy what's there to be enjoyed about someone. Exactly. For so many of us, when we're in front of someone, we perceive to be better than us. We put them on a pedestal. We think they're many of us, when we're in front of someone, we perceive to be better than us, we put them on a pedestal,

we think they're smarter than us, better looking than us, more accomplished than us. We take it as real insecurity, or that we fear we're not gonna impress them, or that they're not gonna deem us as worthy. What would you say to people who struggle with being intimidated by people? Would it be that to learn to appreciate things? How do you appreciate things about someone without being, without feeling like it's a threat

to what is you? To where you're at or who you are? Well they're human like I am. And they go through all the human things. Maybe some of those people have more security than I have. I don't know. I think that it's to step down from that high place that you think you are in and just go, you know, it's just regular person. We're regular people. We all are. I mean, yeah, a lot of people have done

a lot of wonderful things in this world and would I like to meet them? Yes, but I'd like to meet them for different reasons now as I'm older. I want to know what made them want to do that. You know, or what, how, Amanda Gorman, you know the young poet? No. She's a poet and she's young and she did the inauguration. I think of at Joe Biden's inauguration. And this is a young woman who tells a story by poetry. Would I love to meet her? Yeah, I would love it. This is a young woman who tells a story by poetry.

What, I love to meet her? Yeah, I would love, she would intimidate me because I can't write poetry. I mean, but yes, but she's amazing. I mean, I just, I find intimidate, I don't find, I don't feel so intimidated anymore. I think I feel more like awestruck or maybe a fan girl or something. You know, it's like, ah.

But you don't feel it takes away from your power or your sense of worth. Because I think that's where the intimidation for a lot of people comes from, is I can't just be in appreciation. In a way, they feel what they're appreciating is just highlighting how insufficient they are. Well, that's something to work on. And I may feel like that, depending on who I'm meeting. But I think that we have to know that we are special too. And we are perfect. You know, we really are. All of us. We have wonderful things to share and to give as well. This person may have done it publicly.

We do it maybe not quite so big, but okay. It doesn't mean that we're not good enough. We find out that we're good enough. We're meeting this person. Isn't that an exciting thing to do? I mean, you know, I meet you and I'm like, wow How amazing it is what you've done and how vulnerable you are and how how much you've created and how many people Listen to you and care about what you're saying about them

Because you're you're telling your truth and you're telling your story and you're being open. That could be intimidating, but it's not because you're being truthful. And you care. Why is it that we don't care about other people? Why do we not care that the children in Africa aren't getting fed? Why do we not care that the children in Africa aren't getting fed? You know, why do we not care that there's a lot of poverty or children can't get fed in this country?

I mean, caring is a big thing about that. And if you're meeting people because you're fortunate enough to meet somebody that has the ability or something that you know is strength. You go, yeah, I'm lucky. I'm fortunate. I'm grateful. I'm thrilled. And what a great kind of way to circle back because that caring about someone or a cause, something you're doing, is I find one of the fastest ways to dissolve the ego that makes us feel not good enough in the first place, that makes us feel intimidated because that not good enough feeling is all about me. Like I'm completely focused on myself and whether I'm enough, which means I'm really navel gazing. Right.

Whereas when you are worried about someone else who's not getting enough to eat or, you know, how do I get this person out of this toxic relationship so that they can go and live a better life? All of a sudden, you're not thinking about yourself anymore Right. You're thinking about somebody else and that's the great gift of it. I always say to people in public speaking You know, I've been Speaking for 18 years of my life now and When people talk to me about well, what do you do? how do you deal with the nerves? Or how do you deal with getting up in front of people?

And I always know that to me, one of the great secrets is what are your intentions when you step on stage? Because if my intention is looking good, then I'm gonna be nervous. You're gonna be nervous. If my intention is, you know, I have something to say that if these people don't hear it, it will hurt them.

So how do I get that across in the time that I have so that they can be helped by that? Then all of a sudden it's not about me anymore, it's about these people sitting in front of me. And I believe that that's what you did in 92 when you were at that convention. Oh, there's no question about that. It was about other people. Well, I always do that every time.

And I've done speaking now for what, 35 years or whatever. Yeah, you got me thinking. I wish you the same, I know. But I mean, I always say a little prayer before I speak to center myself. And I always pray that I can say it the way they need to hear it. That's beautiful.

I love that. So simple. Yeah, simple. And maybe you only get one person out of this whole group or maybe you get 20, it doesn't matter. I'm so excited about this book of yours. I've, you know, Audrey and I have not stopped talking about you since we met you.

And the fact that, you know, it coincided with you releasing this book, which for everyone out there, it is called Uneasy Silence by Mary Fisher, an activist seeks justice and courage over a lifetime of change. I find your story incredibly moving and powerful. I love that you're out there making things.

I hope you never stop making things. Thank you. And I know this is a deeply, deeply personal book for you. So I'm really excited for people to read it and get to know you better and to learn from you as I know we all have today. And I'm excited to keep learning from you. So thank you. Thank you for your time today.

Thank you, Matthew. Thank you for having me and I'm just grateful. Where can people get the book? Anywhere that they get books and it's also an audiobook and it's also Kindle. It's an audiobook and Amazon or any place that you bookstores. Amazing. So it's in all formats. Go grab a copy of the book. Is there anywhere else that you would like to direct people to? I know a portion of the proceeds of this book are going to Project Angel Food. Correct.

Which is amazing. Is there anywhere you want people to check out or come visit you or see you doing your thing? I don't have, not at this, not today. Not today? Where can they find you if they'd like to find you? Oh, maryfisher.com is my website and I'm on all of the social media sites. I'm not really good at it but I have people that help me

because I can't I think I just you know this is another generational thing. We all have people who help us. It's a nightmare. I'm on all the social media. It's Mary Fisher Art on Instagram. Amazing, and I have a picture, maybe when we post something on Instagram of this conversation, we'll post up the picture Audrey and I bought from your collection. Well, it's in the book. That's what's so beautiful about this whole thing,

because the story is there, but so is the art. That's gorgeous. Thank you. Thanks for being here. Thank you. Thank you so much for listening everybody and it would be remiss of me not to point out that what Mary said at the beginning of the episode that she found herself in a completely new chapter of her life trying to figure out how to make the most of it, realizing that her depression and what she was struggling with was really a grieving of her old

life and a desire and a need to create a new one. You may be in that place right now and the place where I help people move from the old life to the new life is the retreat. So I really hope that as many of you come and join me there as possible. Like I said before, it is happening in October in Miami. You can either come join me in person or you can get a virtual ticket and join me from afar. It doesn't matter which, just make sure you get access to what I'm doing that weekend because I promise you it will be an absolute game changer Not just for your next year

But for your next 10 years so come and join me at mhretreat.com Where you can get your tickets and thank you so much as always for listening to the love life podcast I'll see you in the next one Thanks for watching!