Love Life with Matthew Hussey - What Dating Burnout Is Actually Doing to Your Brain — w/ Dr. Guy Winch, Part 2

Episode Date: February 11, 2026

Dating can burn you out . . . especially when you’ve been rejected, ghosted, or stuck in that exhausting loop where nothing ever turns into something real. In Part 2 of my conversation with clinical psychologist Guy Winch, we get into how to stop showing up in “don’t mess this up!” mode, how to shift from avoiding loss to actually going for connection, and how to date in a way that protects your energy.We also tackle modern dating burnout—why it turns into cynicism, how to spot the patterns keeping you stuck, the “coffee date” debate, the “burned haystack” method, and real red flags vs. over-filtering.---------►► Grab your copy of Dr. Guy Winch’s new book Mind Over Grind: How to Break Free When Work Hijacks Your Life at guywinch.com/books/mind-over-grind ►► 🌍 Get an exclusive 15% discount on Saily data plans when you use code LOVELIFE at checkout! Download the Saily app or go to saily.com/lovelife ⛵►► Spark joy for you and your loved ones this year. Head to cozyearth.com and use my code LOVELIFE for up to 20% off.►► Get your free From Casual to Committed training at GetCommitment.com Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hey everyone, welcome back to Love Life. Today is following on from last week's incredibly popular episode where we interviewed Guy Wynch. Guy Wynch is a clinical psychologist, a TED speaker, author of the book Emotional First Aid, and now his new book, Mind Over Grind. Last week we talked about work, overwhelm and burnout. This week, we are talking about overwhelm and burnout in dating. I ask Guy some incredibly difficult questions. I present him with some of the more dubious dating content I'm seeing out there in the world today. And we get him answering questions in a way that actually we don't see him answering questions in other places. So this is a really unique interview with Guy Wynch. I'm excited for you to hear it. Check it out and let me know what you think. As always,

you can email us podcast at Matthew Hussie.com. I want to switch gears to all of the ways that the lessons in your book, which is focused at least around, to me it's all transferable, but it's focused around the kind of overwhelm and stress and burnout that can come from a working life. I want to position those lessons towards people's love lives. I'm really curious to know what your answers will be in these different areas. Before we go into that, I just want to remind everyone of the book that we are talking about is called mind over grind how to break free when work hijacks your life um i've been loving reading this book i've been both a fan of guy for many years and guys work and his content and also benefited hugely personally from working from guy and feel

grateful also to call you a friend today it's been a real education over the years and so anytime you have new book coming out. I'm first in line to want to read it and to look at what all of that material that I've heard for years looks like marshaled in one place. So I know that if you enjoy my content and if you enjoy listening to the Love Life podcast, you are going to love this book. Pick up a copy, mind over grind, anywhere books are sold. For anyone out there who's listening and many people obviously listen to this podcast because they are looking at. to have a successful relationship. Maybe they're single right now.

They're looking for love. Maybe they're heartbroken and they're trying to move past that heartbreak or know what to do with it. Or maybe they've got someone that they're seeing right now or in a relationship with, but there's something overwhelming or difficult about that situation. I want to talk about something you said in the book with regards to when we go into a situation from a place of fear or defense. We go in kind of eyes squinted, trying to protect ourselves from what could happen, trying to stop ourselves from stepping on a landmine and not say the

wrong thing. And all of the ways that we play defense when we're coming from that fearful place actually ends up creating the least impressive version of ourselves. And it's not the version of ourselves, we actually need to show up in those situations. Whereas, and I think you said that this psychology actually points to, if you go into a situation excited about the impact you're going to make or about the way you're going to impress someone with your abilities or your skills or the piece of work you're creating, a much more powerful version of you will show up. The reason that I'm saying this is because there are so many things that happen in dating. that put us on the back foot, that make us feel like we have to play defense.

Someone can just not have texted us back. And all of a sudden, you know, we're in a scared state again. We're anxious. Now the next time we talk, we're worried we're going to say the wrong thing or we're worried that we're going to blow it. And that's especially true if, you know, the history of our love life shows a lot of rejection or that we're pretty much invisible, it seems to most people. And this person who came along is the first person who's come along in the last five or

10 years. And so how am I supposed to play offence? I'm on complete defense trying to not put a foot wrong because I don't want to blow it. How can someone play offense and maintain that kind of composure that will actually make them show up as their most impressive selves in contexts in which they feel constantly knocked or in contexts in which someone has already given them reason to doubt themselves. It's very difficult when the stakes are high and you really want a certain outcome to happen to show up and really go for the success. But to be clear, there is a different mindset associated with wanting to go into a situation wanting to win and going into a situation seeking to avoid loss. I mean seeking to avoid things not working out well in dating.

If you are going in seeking to impress, seeking to bring your best self forward, you have one mindset and not just mindset your brain chemistry goes to one place in a much better way if you go in trying to avert avoid disaster trying to avoid putting a foot wrong if you're focused on I don't want to put the foot wrong then your focus on not failing and not failing is very very different than succeeding and people don't have that distinction that clearly people don't understand, it's not a nuance of definition, not failing and succeeding. It's a literally a mindset. It's different brain chemistry. It's different physiological responses in the moment. It's difficult. It's different executive functioning and ability to think clearly. It's different

emotions. It's different stress levels. You are in control of that, because that is your mindset. So what, okay, I'm going on a date. How do I apply that mindset to going on a date? Because I agree, if I go in feeling like, if I go in obsessed with not failing, I am going to censor myself constantly. I'm not going to say that thought that comes up for me that might be a playful or interesting or funny thought because I'm going to be like, no, I better not say that because that might be a turn off in some way or that might do that.

I'm obsessing and over-analysing and I am back in that defensive posture. and we want to go on a date to make an impact, not to not turn someone off. So how do I do that going into that situation? So first of all, preparation matters. And preparation here involves both physical and psychological. If you go into the date feeling prepared, so figure out what you're going to wear.

Figure out, you know, a couple of topics of conversation that you want to bring up that you know are interesting, provocative, not in a bad way provocative, but are interesting that, that you know, that you have interesting things to say about, but they're not random. You know, you can't meet somebody for a first date and say, let's talk about crypto.

Like, that's not going to work. But like, just prepare the conversation. Prepare what you're going to wear, the outfit that you're going to have. If you know you're going to meet at this coffee shop or you're going to go for a walk, scout out the location. It's not important to scout out the location

for you to know something about the location. It's important because it will make you feel more confident. And because these small steps that you're taking are giving you a sense of control over an unknown situation. So I went to the coffee shop. I know how that operates now. I know where's a good place to sit.

And oh, I'm glad I went because that place has a lot of cobblestones. So I have to think about a different level healed than what I was thinking about or whatever the thing is. In other words, anything that you can do to feel more prepared. Again, that's a psychological feeling. You know, control is a psychological feeling. You just need to do the actions that make you feel like, oh, I've checked that box, I've

prepared. I've done everything I can. I can't prepare in terms of I don't know what they're going to say. I don't know how they're going to react, et cetera, but I can, you know, I can do what I can do. That's going to be really, really helpful. The other thing specifically about dating, And this is going to be the same in job interviews, which I remind people, which are very stressful, like you are interviewing them too.

If you're that focused on whether they want me, you are not focused on whether you want them. And the idea of focusing on whether you want them, on whether this date is appealing to you, whether they seem interesting, whether they are saying things that you consider intelligent, you know, et cetera. The minute you're assessing them, you are in your head. In other words, you are less swirling and whatever the worries are and you're thinking more, you're analyzing more so you're actually trying to pay attention to what they're saying and how does that strike you

and oh, I'm not sure I love that but okay, we'll think about that later kind of thing. Pivot what the task is before you. The task is not to go and put on a show. The task is to go and be yourself as much as possible but pay attention to who they are. Because a lot of the time, in those situations, especially someone that I haven't had a date in several years,

or I haven't met someone that's worthy. They look at a person on paper, and they go, on paper, they're perfect. Somebody told me actually just last week, they met someone that on paper was perfect. And they had a first date with them, and they felt nothing. And I said, well, tell me about them.

And the more they told me about them, the more upset I was that they felt nothing because they were perfect on paper. That literally sounded like for this woman, this is the perfect person for you, but in person, all of those did not add up. And again, it wasn't that there was something they were, they were as they were on paper,

but the chemistry, the way the person came across, it just didn't do anything. But now sometimes, you know, you pay attention to like, is this, you know, like, don't just force it because on paper they're perfect. And you just want to like resolve the thing and find someone already. Check in with yourself. Do you, are you feeling like, oh, I really like this person? Or are you more like, oh, I really want them, which is different. I really want them as you're landing an account.

I really like them is like, I'm enjoying the time I'm spending with them. That's a lovely distinction. Were you mad because you wanted them to like this person because you were like this person was right for them or were you mad because they weren't paying attention to what they felt they were paying too mad. Because I thought if this person had amounted if they in person were as compelling as they were on paper

then it would be great. Literally the perfect person. I'll just disappointed. Yeah. Guys, one of the most challenging things about modern dating is not just finding someone that we like, which can be challenging all by itself, but even once we have, and we find someone who likes us back, it still feels so difficult to get to the point of actually having a real committed relationship with that person. That's because

of something called the investment gap. It is the time in early dating where we are willing to give and invest and commit more than the other person is. I have put together a free training called from casual to committed where I talk about how to overcome the investment gap. It is one of the most common things in the world right now. And I show you very specific things that you can do and say that actually start to progress the relationship in an intentional way that leads to real commitment. And I know of what I speak in this area, not just because I've been coaching people in this area for two decades of my life, but also because in the beginning of my relationship with my wife, Audrey, I was the one who is having some fears around commitment. And some of the things I talk about in this training

are things that she literally said and did with me that made all the difference to my ability to commit. It's amazing what the right language and the right actions can do in creating a relationship that actually goes the distance. I want to show you what they are in casual to committed, which you can watch for free right now at getcommitment.com. That link again is get commitment.com. Dating burnout is a very, very common phrase these days from people who are just, sometimes for different reasons,

but are really just over the process. I'm curious to know what your thoughts are on this, because the subject of the book is so much to do with avoiding burnout. But there are people who get burned out in dating because there's, you know, so many options for them online and they never amount to anything. Or they never find anyone they're actually interested in. There are other people who burn out because nothing is happening for them. And it feels like there's no options.

They do not relate to the idea. of going on a dating app and being bombarded with choice. Instead, they just feel invisible. There are other people who are painstakingly going on date after date after date and getting rejected all the time and never get the call back. Other people are seeing people, but they never result in a relationship. So they feel like, God, I put all of this effort in. I do my best.

And then someone just decides that they're not ready. And that's my experience over and over and over again. I'm always the person before the person they end up in a relationship with or the person before the person they marry. But they all amount to the same thing, which is so many people arriving at a place these days where they're just checked out from the process. Because they're like, I just, I can't do this anymore. But even that is an untenable position for people because deep down, they truly want to find love. And they have no greater goal in their life at this stage than pairing up with someone and enjoying their life with someone. else and I say that not from a I mean you know me well enough guy to know I'm not an

evangelist that everyone should be in a relationship and everyone should be married and that's not me but I know that so many people desperately desperately want to find love they want a relationship but the process of getting one is killing them and soul destroying and so I'm I know that's a very big question But I just wonder what it brings up for you in terms of people's approach, how they manage those feelings. Is there a better way for them to go into this more sustainably so that it doesn't produce that result when it's not happening? Or any ways that you think they could have more success if they approached it differently. Look, if you're trying, for the people, for example, who are going on date after date after date, but it's not turning into a relationship, it is worthy of examination.

about, and especially if it's not turning into a relationship because the other person is not interested in, and then the next person they end up with, then where are the critical failure points? What are the patterns there? How are you managing those early steps such that, you know, maybe there's a change of strategy you need to have because you're going through the same, you know, steps.

You're going through the same stages, and it's not working out. So is there something, you know, is your approach requiring a tweak? Do you need to do things differently? Do you, you know, are you sleeping with them too soon or not sleeping with them soon enough? Or are you the one that keeps indicating to them that you want to move? Are you one step ahead of them all the time or half a step ahead of them all the time? And, you know, or are you in lockstep, in other words, letting them, there can be many, many combinations there.

But actually, if you're going on a lot of dates, but just not converting any of them, certainly in there many of those you would have liked to, then there might be something in what your approach is to these early or middle dating stages that needs tweaking. So look at your patterns. Look at where that tends to happen.

Look at what you're doing. You might not know, but try something else. and especially this idea of how you a step ahead. And one way today we can really see that quite clearly is texts. Ignore what is said. Just look at the amount, the block. How much are you saying? How much are they saying?

Who's initiating the conversations? Who's saying the last thing in the conversations? Who's, you know, like they said, oh yeah, sure, you said three lines. They said this. They said five lines. What is it? So do some analysis there. With burnout in general, dating usually goes, it's a very rote process.

You go on that first date, you have a chit-chat, if it goes well, you have a second date, and then you have these slow progressions. But maybe that is not a recipe that works well for you. Maybe you need to think about doing it differently in some kind of way. and then you need to think about it as an experiment. I'm going to try something different with the next one. You know, maybe that won't work, but I want to try something different. You can't, don't be a different you, obviously, but go about it differently.

If you always wait for them to call and, you know, they do, but then at some point they expect you to, but you haven't, like, shifted around. But try and do things a little bit differently. If the dating apps aren't working for you or you're just not getting responses at all, how are you approaching people on those dating apps? What is your profile indicate? What kind of pictures do you have? I've seen dating profiles,

and not many, but I have seen them, in which all the pictures are from you skiing. I mean, yes, you took the goggles off for some of them. Why don't just hide? I mean, I don't understand. Like, what is the person, like, we get it, you're athletic. You don't need to make the same point over and over again. Like, show different facets of yourself.

Like, are you, specific enough or are you just trying to say generic thing because you don't want to turn certain people off by saying I really like this? If there's one specific thing you're really, really into, say it because somebody who's really, really into that will respond more likely. But if there's nothing you're really, if you're not passionate about anything in your profile or in that first date, like what do you care about? If that doesn't come up in the first date, you know, then it's a problem, you know, because then who are they supposed to be interested in? Like, give them things to latch on to. There's so much frustration right now from people who are so

over the process and so worn out by the process, by how little they're getting from somebody else, by how much other people are not even willing. to try or the people who are willing to try are just strange or crazy or there's something like off or they're just not people they're attracted to and there's I'm seeing more and more these kind of like reactions to the level of frustration that people are feeling where one of them is I've seen out there a lot right now is this notion from women that if a guy asks to take you to coffee for a date, reject. Like, that's game over. And the reason is the logic behind that is if he's not even committed enough or invested enough to take you to dinner, if he's just going to

take you to this for a first date, for a first date. Like if he's just opting already for the low, the ultra-casual, non-committal hangout of a coffee, then deny. And when I heard, I'm curious, before I give you my opinion, what's your opinion on that? Why should they be invested if they haven't met you, is my opinion. In other words, a coffee date is the first date, like the story I just said about the person who was perfect on paper, but the meeting in person made it clear that the chemistry just wasn't there. That you know within five, ten minutes, five seconds sometimes.

So a coffee date is fine as a first initial thing. I have heard of many coffee dates that were supposed to be 15 minutes that went on for three hours and segued into dinner because there was a great chemistry. So the fact that it starts with coffee doesn't mean that's how it's ending. Number one. If after a coffee date, you know, you had great conversation, everything was fine, and they said, how I'd love to do coffee again,

then I would respond and say like, sorry, you're the second dates, you have to up the game. a bit from coffee, I think. So if you want to do more than coffee, a drink, perhaps that would be fine. But if it's just coffee, there's only so much coffee I can do. Yeah, yeah. So I really like that answer and I couldn't agree more.

I think that it's a, it's madness to take someone who might be the kind of person who's, you know, I don't think you should take everyone that you go on a date with to dinner. I think that's, if you're dating, If you're actively dating... If you're within five seconds, no, you're not interested, that's a long dinner. It's a long dinner and it's an expensive life. Yes. Because you have to date a lot of people to find the right person.

Yes. Probability suggests. So it's... And by the way, that's also in the context of a world where there are still so many women who say, if a guy doesn't pay for me on a date, then I'm out. So then the kind of guy that you're looking for who will only take you to dinner but is dating actively and is taking many people to dinner is having an extraordinarily expensive life paying for all of these dinners everywhere all the time because probably

the kind of person who says it has to be dinner not a coffee isn't suggesting that you go to the ramen joint down the street so there's a lot there but but there is something about it that I think is it's a reaction to pain and that pain is that so many women are coming across so many guys that are just not trying anymore, that are just, you know, in their mind, perhaps, the woman who's suggesting this or the women who suggest this are really saying that him just taking you to coffee is an indicator of a kind of guy that is just trying for the lowest possible investment to get the highest possible return. Now, you and I are both saying, that's a huge statement about coffee. and someone who, you know, might actually be a very reasonable person who just wants a date that

you can both get away from within half an hour if it's not right, which seems perfectly fair enough. What would you say to those people about a better way to achieve that result of not burning out on guys who are not trying without warding, you know, denying people right at the beginning? who might actually turn out to be great people. But this is burnout, right? This is dating burnout. What burnout does is, you know, fatigue, exhaustion, impatience, other symptoms, but so is cynicism.

So there's cynicism about what you do, about the process, about what's happening. And if these women are like, no, I'm not going to go just for a coffee date, that shows a lack of investment for somebody who's never met me before. Or they're not showing up enough. You know, like they want to split the thing. Do you know the financial situation? What if they're the loveliest person,

but they literally can't afford that right now, and then maybe on a third day they'll want to pay, but unless you know what their financial situation is, then, you know, and if you have that level of cynicism, it might be well earned. It might be that you've been doing this enough, that you have every right to feel that way. But what I'm saying is that is bleeding over.

In the same way, we do not contain burnout. It everyone around us outside of work knows it because we're we're not ourselves. We're not joyful. We're not ourselves. We're cynical. We're impatient. We're miserable. We're apt to interpret in the negative.

We're apt to have like a, you know, the shorter, you know, responses to be more irritable, to be less patience, to be less forgiving. We're apt to perceive things in a harsher way. And so if that's the burnout that you're not, you're not. feeling and maybe again super warranted so there's a there's a there's i have two follow-up questions to this because there's a there's another phenomenon i want you to leave to comment on and it's the what's known as the burn haystack method have you heard of this no so the burn haystack method is i forget who i don't know who coined it or who put it forward but it's the idea that in online dating

the moment you see something that doesn't adhere to a strict set of pariscus parameters that you have. Someone, you know, they range from the more obvious things like someone becomes really overly sexual too quickly, which I would argue, okay, fair enough, you know, you don't have to waste your time there, all the way to, they used a cliche. And that is just like, no, I can't deal with this. Or they had, they used bad grammar on something. So it's this idea that if you want to meet your person, just reject people as quickly as possible the moment you see something that you don't like.

And I'm curious what you think of that. Again, reaction, I think reaction to the same thing. I think the point you just made very relevant, but what do you think about the burn haystack method? So here I'm going to be more measured because I think it depends on what that thing is. They use the cliche, I, okay, so they use the cliché.

Who cares? You will know over a number of dates whether they have trouble forming original ideas, but who cares that they used a cliche? Being overtly sexual, to what extent? In other words, if they said, 10 minutes into the coffee, do you want to go back to my place? It's inappropriate.

There's certain things, if they're sitting there and the waiter comes and they are really rude to the waiter, that's a character thing. So I would mark them, you know, for that one. I would perhaps, you know, but my, because that's like, if you don't have respect for other people, especially people who are serving you for goodness sakes and maybe you're not for me. But I would argue, by the way,

most of the things that are being talked about here aren't even taking, these aren't judgments taking place in the context of a coffee date that's before people have even got off the app. Like these are things that are literally, they're either seeing in people's profiles or in text exchanges. on the app before a date has even occurred. Right. How many times have you texted someone? I don't know if you have, but I know I have.

I just need to text them back. I'm really, I'm rushed. I don't have time to think and say something nice. I'll just say something. There'll be typos. They'll be spelling errors. They'll be, you know, like, I just don't have time, but I want to get back to them.

You don't know what's going on in their life. Well, and to your point, at that point, you're the least invested you're ever going to be. At that point, you just don't know. So if you're making... But what I mean is they're the least invested they're ever going to be. You know, that same point about someone taking you to coffee,

they shouldn't be so invested right now. The same is even more true at that point on an ad. They might be at work with their boss yelling at them in a meeting and they're texting you under the table and they're in a terrible mood and they're this. So they're just like, you don't know. Like you need a lot of evidence to see a pattern unless there's certain technological things.

Like I said, but like it, you'd better be getting a ton of dates if you're disqualifying people at that level because that says nothing about the person. We all have bad days. We can all be extremely irritable. We can all be really...

But then they meet you and they're lovely. In other words, you have zero idea what that actually means. You know, another one that I've heard, and this I hear all the time, people are just using social media and completely misusing what they learn. there. You know, somebody said to me that, you know, that they, this was a friend of, you know,

that a friend of theirs, that, um, they had a date with someone and that person wrote to them and said, I really, really had a great time on the day that I can't wait to see you again. I hope we can see each other soon. And that woman showed it to her friends and their friends were like, oh no, they love bombing you. I'm like, be careful. It's a sign of narcissism. I'm like, oh, God. like no that that's not true in other words if you are being you're being judgmental like if it's your person they don't have bad moments they don't have bad moods they can't have a typo they might use a cliche once in a while like that's your person a image of perfection i don't understand

it's really i mean that's very self-defeating so the two questions i had is one how can someone avoid getting to that cynical place where all of a sudden now they are hypersensitive to anyone doing anything that doesn't fall in line with what they hope for for themselves and therefore rejecting people left right and center and becoming very bitter and angry and frustrated how do people avoid getting to that point of cynicism in the first place and maybe you've already answered this but I was going to say if they're trying to guard against the wrong kinds of people, what is a better way of doing it than the burn haystack method? I'm going to start with a latter. It takes a long time to truly get to know someone.

And I'm not talking about five dates or ten dates. I believe it takes a calendar a year. You want to see them through all the holidays. You want to see what they're like around their parents, what they like around their friends, how they travel, how they argue, how they do when they're not well. You know, some people, the slightest cold and they're like, oh my goodness. they became a 10 year old. You know, like, you never know. So, so it takes a long time to get to know someone. So unless it's really critical, it's going to take a while.

You can't leap to those conclusions. And what would be the critical, you gave the example of the, you know, they were rude to the waiter. What would be some other, if people are listening to this going, okay, I really want to apply this. I think I've become too closed, too judgmental, I am denying people too quickly. but I also don't want to, in the interest of not taking advice and applying it wrongly, I don't want to now have this advice be a mandate for ignoring certain serious red flags. So what would be the things that you would say, like the being rude to the waiter, that do qualify as cut and run because it's not worth giving this person Christmas and New Year and Easter?

It's a very long list, but you know the list because it makes you, it kind of turns you a little bit cold. things were going fine and suddenly you have a oh reaction a cringe reaction now not for false reasons but you cringed because

you know like they driving somewhere and suddenly they unleashed some road rage that was just like unbelievable in an unwarranted way or they're talking about someone and it's so unkind and it's so judgmental or like you know

there are certain things that like you wouldn't do once. Even if you're in a bad mood, you wouldn't say that. You wouldn't do that. That's not something you would do. It's those kinds of things. But with all those things, unless it's truly critical, with all those things,

I also believe in give them a chance to correct. Even with the waiter, like maybe they didn't even realize. Like, say to them like, wow, that was a little rude to the waiter. And that gives them an opportunity to say like, oh goodness, you're right. I'm so sorry. I've been so very.

focus, I just felt like they were intruding and we were having such a great conversation, so I got annoyed with them, but you're absolutely right. I'm usually lovely to wait stuff. Let me go apologize to the person. Suddenly like, oh, hello, that's okay. So give a, or they might look at you like, so what? They're just a waiter in which you say, check, please, off we go, you know? So give them and tell them if they're doing something that's really kind of rubbing you the wrong way and see how they handle it. It's a great litmus test when they take feedback? Are they willing to listen to you? Are they willing to consider their own actions? That might be useful to know. It's funny. I used to tell this story of a date I went on where

someone showed up significantly late, you know, like 15, 20 minutes, but didn't apologize when they got there. And that was the part that really irked me. And I had got myself, by the time this person had arrived, I'd got myself into such a work done. upstate over it, partly because I had rushed from work and made certain sacrifices to be there on time that had actually cost me. And the fact that then I didn't even need to be on time and the person didn't apologize, I struggled with. But in that moment, my emotions and my ego made me end the date once she arrived. You know, I said like, I, I'm sorry. the truth is I'm not in a great because I was waiting it was like I was it was I was testing her I was

waiting for does she arrive and apologize and the moment she didn't and by the way I'm not I suppose this is one of those 50 50 scenarios at the time my reaction was I this is a character thing I don't want to you know like I'm just not interested in going any further so I ended it and I said to her like I'm sorry. I'm, I'm just, it's put me in a bad mood. You came late.

You didn't even really apologize for coming late. And she was a bit like flummoxed by the whole thing and was like, oh, okay. And was a bit rabbit in the headlights. And I called her an Uber and she went home.

Now, maybe in some ways that was my answer, because she could have taken that opportunity to say. She could have. She could have. She could have. But maybe in my, like in,

in that state of having got myself worked up, I could have presented it a little more compassionately to say, I feel that, you know, taken aback that you came late and you also haven't said anything about that because I've rushed to get here, that might have given her more of an opportunity to at least be like, oh my God, I am so sorry. I didn't mean to, that's not the impression I wanted to create at all.

So I don't know. I guess I'm just pontificating on whether back then. She could have salvaged even the harsher version I want to end the date, right? If she would have said to you like, oh, my goodness, you're so right. I was thinking I was like composing my apology all the way. But the minute I got there, I was like, so excited to see you. I just wanted to launch into the date and it completely escaped me.

But I'm telling you, I have five versions. Let me give you the first three, you know, and suddenly it's endeavored. Oh, I would have, any feeling I had would have dissolved in that moment. So, yeah, no, it's just interesting because these lines between drawing boundary and having a standard, which are obviously such popular words and I'm one of the people who talks about them the most, they are equal parts empowering and dangerous depending on how they're used.

And in these examples that we're giving of the burn haystack method and all of that, they're kind of, they're ways that it can go too far. I want to talk about one last thing before and you've been very generous with your time and I've loved this conversation, by the way. I know people are going to get so much out of this

and the breadth of it. But the one last thing I know people would be frustrated if I didn't ask you about was heartbreak. You know, you had such a famous TED Talk on Heartbreak that people can still find on YouTube. You have a book on Heartbreak. Can you remind me? What's the... How to fix a broken heart. How to fix a broken heart.

That's right. For people who are in the kind of, I know we can't, we don't have time to cover the full breadth of all heartbreak related questions right now. but if we were to kind of connect this back to the feelings of overwhelm that we've been talking about a lot today, what would you say to people who are in the midst of like the worst heartbreak of their lives? I have a friend who is going through this right now who is just, you know, it is as fresh and as acute as it could be. and the thought never leaves their mind of how much they're in pain and how scared they are of losing this person

and they'll never meet someone like them again and so on and so on and so on. What advice could you give someone who is in that kind of acute stage of heartbreak right now that is leading to overwhelm that in an emotional sense is burning them out in their lives? Well, it's more than burning them out. I mean, again, when you're in that level of heart, outbreak, it is analogous to withdrawing from opioids, from heroin. When you're withdrawing from heroin, it's not like burnout, it's everything. It's like you don't have a mind for everything.

Your brain is telling you there is one thing that matters in your life. Nothing else does. Even the things you know do matter, do not. Just that. Without that, you'll be miserable and forever. And with that, everything will be rosy and. again. That's where your brain is signaling to you and it's doing that morning and night, day a night, all the time. It is exquisitely painful, exquisitely, exquisitely painful and it just goes on and on and on. It's a true grieving process. And like any other kind of grieving, it is

acutely painful at the beginning and gets a little less so as time goes on. But why I did the talk and wrote the book is because there are steps you can take to accelerate that. healing. And it sounds like if you're saying like, you know, coming to terms with the fact, I don't know if it's over entirely or not. And it's that, it's that in-between thing of like, you know, they think it's over, but they led me to believe that they'll decide finally in a week, you know, that kind of torture that you're like, okay, I can't breathe now for a week. Because my whole life depends on this person giving me an answer. It's so difficult. It's so, so painful. But let's say it is over.

and not your hopes and dreams of like, no, I'll convince it, it's over. Healing starts with acceptance. That it's over. When somebody dies, the simpler part of it is that they're dead. And as horrific as that is, they are. They're not coming back.

But with heartbreak, there's that still an expectation, a hope, a wish, that I'll get them back, they'll change their mind. and that hope, that expectation that maybe it'll come to their senses, extends the pain for such a long time. So one of the things you have to do is come to acceptance that it is over. And now you have a task of healing.

And the task of healing has some structure to it. There are specific things you need to do. But you can't start to do them. if you're still hoping for them to come back, if it's still not fully accepting that it's over. Not that you can accept that often from day to day, it takes a little bit of time. But if it is, then it's starting by accepting that it's over

and not debating that is very important. And the other thing today that is such a portal to misery is social media, our lives of public, all people's lives. I mean, there are some people who are not on social media, but for you. and so you can see them out in the world seeming okay how come they're okay I am barely breathing

I haven't eaten for three days how are they okay well because breakups do not happen overnight they are contemplated over time they're often strategized

over time because you want to do it at a time that's right for you you want to be sure you want to know what your exit looks like what your life looks like afterward and until that moment you're going to fake it. Not out of maliciousness because why have somebody live in uncertainty unless you're sure? So once things are in place, they'll tell you a lot of the time.

But that might have been months of them going through a process. They are months ahead of you in terms of moving on. But to you, it looks like yesterday, last weekend, we had a great weekend and now they're out and I don't understand how that's possible. Did they never love me? They did until recently. And so it just looks cruel, but often it's not. But it's almost, it's also one of the, what feels like the embarrassing or shameful parts is when that realization lands, it's almost the second, the secondary emotion is this embarrassment of they've been having a different experience than I have.

They've been talking to their friends. They've been having these conversations about the fact that they're not happy while I've been telling all of my friends how in love I am. you know how embarrassing how you know it is it is it can feel terribly awkward and it can be very you know angering that that they fooled you quote unquote but there's no there's often you know unless when they just fell out of love when they just decide to move on as opposed to a huge fight happening or a huge problem happening

then it does take time for them to realize and there is no point no one gets up in the morning over breakfast says oh I had thoughts about maybe I should leave you but I'll be deciding in a few months that's more cruel right so it's a built-in part of the process it happens in most relationships it feels embarrassing it feels like you've been bamboozled

it feels like they've been dishonest with you they have but they might have done it in a way that was less painful than keeping you again people don't just verbalize doubts when they have doubts most people don't they think them through they come to a decision

there's a contemplate of stage here one of the most dangerous things that I see happen in breakups is that person who has been contemplating their exit for some time finds a an excuse in the moment to hang it on. They did just have a big fight. And all of a sudden it's, you know, there was an example recently from one of my Love Life members who basically he had overheard her sister say something

unkind about him. It was like a, maybe it was a, the conversation was on speaker and he overheard her sister say something unkind. Well, that was it. Now I'm breaking, you know, I can't handle your family thinking these things about me. I can't do this, whatever. And what happens when someone gives us a false reason that they hang it on in the moment is that we don't know it's false and we end up fighting to solve the wrong problem. It's like the

problem we have to solve for is acceptance, but actually what we're now trying to do is solve for the problem of you, you know, my family having been mean to you or that fight we just had last week about something that doesn't feel like it should end the relationship. And so it's crazy that you're ending the relationship over this. I can fix this. And I watch people spend months and sometimes even years trying to convince someone or persuade someone on reasons that were actually dishonest and hollow in the first place. That happens a lot.

And you know what else happens quite a bit? Is that the person who does the breaking up, they don't even have a reason. It's just that their feelings changed. They don't know why. They're not even sure when. They're just sure that they don't feel that. anymore. And so they feel like, wow, I can't just say to someone's, well, my feelings changed.

Why? I don't know. When? I don't know. They just have. It feels so unsatisfying, even to the person doing the breaking up, that they try and find something more compelling. But then they'd come up with an excuse and then, well, let's fix whatever the thing is. But so many of the time, it's just my feelings changed. Or you're the person being broken up with. It's not satisfactory to you that they haven't given you a clear reason. So you drag out of them something. And at the end of a three hours of you saying there must be a reason, there must be a reason, they say something that maybe has a grain of truth to it, but it's certainly not the headline. And now you spend years with a complex about this thing that you never needed to have in your mind in the first place.

It is very difficult for us to feel such extreme pain and not have a good reason. for it. If we're feeling this much pain, there's got to be this much reason. Otherwise, that's ridiculous that I would have this reaction to this. But that is the case. It's not, you know, like it's love, it's emotion. It's not dictated by logic. So sometimes, no, there's not a great reason. And that caused you terrible pain. But, and then, but, you know, people really go on these searches for the, you know, And when they're looking for the reason, they keep thinking, there's something really malicious here.

There's some, you know, the conspiratorial thing of like, there's more to this story. There has to be more to this story. And often there's not. To finish on a note of solace for anyone who's having that experience, where it feels really hard to just accept that life took a turn, that person's feelings took a turn,

that there's no there's nothing to be gained from this excavation and that it just hurts deeply what to you is the genuine solace the genuine positive that you see a rise for people out of that what feels like just kind of capricious you know pointless pain in life what what hope or something solace, can you give someone that to go back to come full circle with what you said before isn't a mindless kind of mantra, but is a cognitive framing that someone's brain in that situation might actually be able to attach to. That is highly likely, it's not guaranteed for all. It is highly, highly likely that once you do the work and you are over them, you will be

able to look back at them and go like, really, I'm not sure why I would. was that activated. A lot of people go back like, I was so heartbroken, but when I think of them today, I'm like, okay, whatever. It's addiction. When you get over the addiction, the substance doesn't have the pull on you. It doesn't screw up your brain chemistry.

It doesn't mess with your perceptions. It doesn't dominate that way. And then you start to see things clearly. You're not seeing things clearly now at all. It just, no one. is in that level of pain and see things clearly no matter why the pain is. Pain does that and addiction does that and heartbreak is a lovely mix of both. So you can get over them, but the work of healing is work. It is a process of replacement, of filling voids, of redefining yourself, of really

pivoting to looking forward rather than back. And the minute you can commit to that process, it doesn't eradicate the pain right away but the process of healing, rebuilding, reforming is what's going to get you there. It's beautiful. I've loved this conversation guy.

I go into every conversation we have assuming I am going to love it. I love all of our conversations, even the ones that have been hard for me over the years because you've helped me through some very, very difficult times in my life. But I'm a great fan of you independent of, you know, the relationship that I've had the privilege of forming with you

over the years. And I love your work and your books. Very, very excited that this new book is out. For anyone who did not catch it the first time, the book is mind over grind, how to break free when work hijacks your life. Grab yourself a copy. I think this is extremely relevant for so many of us today, myself included. Thanks for being so generous with your time today. Thank you so much for having me. It is always, you know, these are the moments that I look forward to most when we get to have conversations. I always look forward to them. Me too. Thanks for listening, everybody. I hope you enjoyed the interview. Quick question. Is there a question that you would like to ask me right now about life, about love, about dating, about something you're

going through. If I were next to you right now, what would you ask me? I want you to go and ask that question right now of Matthew A.I at AskMh.com. You can do it for free. Just give it a try. See what Matthew A.I has to say to your question. Askmh.com is the link. Let me know what it says.