Love Lives - #10 What does it mean to be too keen and does the 'friend zone' really exist?

Episode Date: November 24, 2017

This week on Millennial Love, we're talking about the so-called 'friend zone'. Does it really exist? Can straight men and women ever be just friends? And in millennial dating, showing actual interest in someone is rare, but why is being too eager considered a no-no? We discuss what it means to be too keen and enjoy another dating disaster of the week - keep sending them in!Support this show http://supporter.acast.com/millenniallove. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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Visit Peloton at onepeloton.ca. Hello and welcome to Millennial Love, the Independent Lifestyle Desk's weekly podcast on love, dating and relationships. Hosted by me, Rachel Hosey, Assistant Lifestyle Editor. And me, Olivia Petter, Lifestyle Writer. Each week, we're discussing the core dating issues affecting millennials today. There are endless podcasts out there on love and relationships, but we felt that nobody was speaking directly to our generation, where people ghost, zombie and breadcrumb one another quicker than you can say Tinder. As two long-time singletons, we're breaking down the boundaries of modern-day dating,

one aubergine emoji at a time. Today, one of our most popular guests from our earlier episodes has returned, Jochen from the independent IndieVest team. Hi, Jochen. Hey, how's it going? Are you glad to be back? I'm excited to be back. I am, yeah, Really, really excited.

We had some good feedback last time on Jochen's previous appearance. He was complimented on his sexy voice. Yes, about that. I mean, look, some women are into mumbling, you know. What can I say? Maybe mumbling's a new dad bod. I spoke about dad bods last time. He did.

But I'm here to tell you now that mumbling is in. Mumbling. Yeah. Jochen's brought sexy mungling. M now that mumbling is in. Mumbling. Yeah. You can sport sexy mungling. Mungling? That sounds weird. Mungling doesn't sound as sexy. I'm not a mungler.

No, I'm a mongler. That sounds a bit dodge. Anyway, we're not here to talk about mungling. Today, we are going to talk about two very fascinating topics about, firstly, how to know if you're being too keen, and what is the friend zone, which is the first topic we're going to talk about today. So guys, Olivia, do you want to explain what is the friend zone? The Urban Dictionary definition is as follows. A term many guys and some girls use when they have been rejected,

whether it's straight out or inadvertently said. People tend to claim it is the other person's fault and or that they are a friend zoning bitch. Despite the fact that the person may really only like them as a friend, which is a false move, seeing as that person believes they should fake feelings and be in a relationship. I think that's quite a harsh definition.

I think the friend zone, first of all, I don't think it's a real place. I think obviously it's this fictional, weird place where people think that you just banish the people you don't think it's a real place. I think, obviously, it's this fictional, weird place where people think that you just banish the people you don't want to date and you say, I just want to be friends. Go forth and rot and freeze in the dreaded friend zone. In my friendship. Yeah.

I don't actually think it's a bad thing. I think it's simply a nicer, kinder way of saying to someone, listen, I'm sorry, I don't fancy you. I don't want to rip your clothes off I just want to be your mate do you think the friend zones the thing well I mean like the concept of well I mean to use a millennial term trips and someone and then they're not going well and you just been like powers that's clearly a thing right but I think people yeah people get to cooperate you know I personally think it's not like,

if you become someone's friend and you become friends and no one makes a move on anyone, it doesn't mean that you're necessarily stuck in the friend zone as some sort of wilderness and you've been mentally compartmentalised there. I feel like just because you're friends doesn't mean you can never be anything more. I don't think that's like you're stuck in the friend zone i think the zones are fluid yeah yeah and if it's bad on you you know if you're if your chat's too weak that you can't

traverse yourself out of the friend zone then gotta take a look yourself for that one uh but i mean like what's wrong with it you got you't got a friend you move on to the next you know take a new friend box and then move on I think it's I think if someone's being honest with you

and if they're not using it as an excuse for some other reason but equally I mean it's so difficult because if you don't fancy someone

you just don't fancy them you're not going to tell them that yeah disagree on some level because I feel that just because just because i don't fancy someone now i don't think it means i'm never gonna fancy them i i have you know this

just because you're in my you might be in my friend zone for now doesn't mean you're not you're gonna you're not gonna get out of that interview but you can't say that to someone because then that no no no i won't be like bread coming no i'm not gonna be like not now mate but i don't fancy you now but maybe one day stick around and wait and see yeah i might decide i like you more eventually i am very fickle yeah i don't know have you guys been friend zoned well i mean i'm sure i've i've tried to like uh romance someone and then it hasn't worked out and we've ended up as friends. Well, sure, I know that's happened,

but like, yeah, fine, it's fine, move on. But have you, that's like a new person who's come into your life and you've tried to romance them

and you've ended up as friends or have you tried to romance a friend? Ooh. Ooh, I have tried to romance a friend before. It's riskier. Yeah, it didn't work,

it didn't work. It never does. No. Not true. Okay, please share, Rachel. I'm sorry. I feel like you've got some personal experience here. You need to get up your chest there.

I don't think it works. They say that all the best relationships start out as friends, though. Everyone says that. I think it depends how long you've been friends for. How many times have you seen When Harry Met Sally? A lot. Or Love, Rosie. That's another good one.

They finally get together, guys, after years and years of friendship. Spoiler alert. Or One Day. Oh, another beaut one. See what these films are doing to me. Can I just read a quote from When Harry Met Sally? No. So for anyone that isn't familiar with the iconic Billy Crystal, Meg Ryan film,

it is a film in which Meg Ryan befriends Billy Crystal when they are, I think, maybe 21. They've just graduated from university. And they sort of bump into each other a few times over the years. And slowly but surely they develop this very strong friendship with one another. And push comes to shove, they fall in love with each other, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. They have this wonderful relationship because they were friends first and it's all romantic. But at the beginning of the film, Billy Crystal says to Meg Ryan, no man can be friends with a woman that he finds attractive.

He always wants to have sex with her. Discuss. Jochen? Oh, no. I mean, I feel like you can be friends with someone and still want to have sex with them but not have sex with them. Yeah, you don't have to act on it. It's not as if every single person I'm attracted to is like like wow i just yeah i think that's ridiculous i think that's insulting to

men and women that you can't be friends with someone that you find attractive yeah yeah i mean one of my friends has said to me before she argues that all guys even though they have like plenty of female friends they would all if said if these are straight men i'm talking about if said woman like made a move on them almost like do you want to go and do stuff they would be like yeah all right but not necessarily attach any meaning to it it's just like friends with benefits kind of thing i guess yeah i don't know uh well without becoming like speaking for all men here which I really do not want to do in the current climate. As the only male here.

Yes, as the only man in the room. Hashtag not all men. Sorry, what was the question? Oh, if an attractive friend. I mean, it's like case by case basis. Very diplomatic. There's a lot I'm going to say about that one. Okay, so here's the thing, though.

I think with male-female friendships, not in all the case, but I think in a lot of the case, possibly one person, I'm not saying always fancies the other, but I think it might go in waves. Are there ever friendships where it's purely, purely, purely always platonic

and no one has ever even considered doing something with the other person that's more than friendship personally i actually don't think there is which is really depressing because i would love to say men and women can just be friends and it doesn't have to be anything more than that and i don't think a relationship necessarily develops but i do think that more often than not when you are very very close with someone of the opposite sex or someone of the sex that you are attracted to it's sort of inevitable that if you spend more and more time alone together you do fun things together you start to kind of develop a subconscious attraction

to them and it's whether you decide to act on that or not that determines how the friendship ends up but I do know personally a lot of my close male friends I've either dated in the past and that's why now we're able to be platonic with one another because we know that we've been there and we can move forward I think because uh friendship or not friendship so again I'm with someone it's such a big part of attraction as well for me at least yeah it probably comes into a lot like obviously there's like the physical side of it but you know you've got to get on with someone to find them attractive i have plenty of male friends that like when i first met them i didn't fancy them and then i got to know them and really like their personality really got on and then i started to fancy them

yeah because i think that's their personality yeah but i think that's not i think that's a natural response because you you grow more and more comfortable around someone. You know, that can make you attracted to someone. Whether you find them physically attractive or not, that becomes more of a thing for you. The more, you know, personality, you get to know them, you become more compatible. The physical stuff starts to sort of become irrelevant

I can completely understand though why people if you fancy someone and then you sort of end up just being friends you might think oh well I've been friendzoned if they don't fancy me now why would they fancy me ever like I have I have another friend who really liked this guy they were getting on really well and she thought they were going to be more than friends and then he announced that he was seeing this other girl and was going on about oh I'm just you know so glad you're such a good friend and I can tell you all about this stuff and she was just like oh god yeah that's heartbreaking yeah and then she felt very much like wow I've been friend zoned there's so many different sort of threads to this as well because there's leading someone on when which I think is is quite cruel when if you only ever

intend to be friends with someone but you sort of give them the bread yeah you give them the bread crumbs you give them the impression that there is something more there and then you suddenly just say something like that like oh you're such a friend. I'm so glad we're just friends. And then it's like, oh, dagger. I feel like the naturally occurring friend zone is fine. Like the organic friend zone is completely fine. If the conversation just meanders towards a friend zone and then we all end up there, then yeah, it's fine.

But yeah, if you're like, if you're savage about it, say anything to us when it comes to dating. Like it's a nice way to do things. There's bad ways to do things. Quite. Well, anyway, guys, such is There's bad ways to do things. Quite. Well, anyway, guys, such is the friend zone. Maybe we're there now.

Maybe we're not. Maybe we're going to put someone there. It's a brutal world. Very, very profound, Rachel. I know. I'm very deep. Speaking of, in fact, not speaking of at all,

that is like I was about to say it's actually the opposite of deep because this is quite a funny story because it's time for dating disaster of the week i think that was quite the right reaction but okay um okay so this was sent in to us by email and i quite love this story here goes hi rachel and olivia so it was the first proper date we went on, having already met at a house party and slept together. We went to a fancy cocktail bar. He must have had ten cocktails, and they were pretty strong. He seemed OK, though.

The bill came to about £120, and I was like, lol, I had three drinks. Luckily, he paid, though. When we got outside and started walking home, I realised he was pretty wasted. I asked him where he was staying. I was pretty much expecting him to stay but wondered if he had actually made any other plans. Plus he was so drunk I didn't think he was going to be up to bumping uglies. Anyway he hadn't planned on staying anywhere else so he came back to mine.

We started doing the deed, but after a while, he said he needed to pop to the loo. He then spent the whole night chucking up downstairs in my shared house. My housemates heard him vomiting and were all messaging on the group WhatsApp chat asking what on earth was going on and was everyone okay. I told them,

don't worry, it's just my date. The next day, he acted like everything was completely normal and nothing had happened and lol because we continued dating for a while after that warmest wishes miss never getting super smashed on a date ever god there are a few things that really fascinate me about that story the first thing is that she referred to sex as bumping uglies that's amazing i fully endorse that i, that's brilliant. But the second one is that he just pretended that nothing was wrong.

But what would you do if you were him? Go home, man. Yeah, just go home. Go in the street or something. Run. Find a gutter and just cut out there for the night. I think if I was him, I would have tried to just like be really like, you know, my flatmate always says things are only awkward if you make them awkward. If you act like everything's fine and oops, drank a bit much last night.

Lol. Then you can, I don't know, try and make it not awkward. But I think I think it's more awkward if you ignore it. Anyway, they dated for a while. But they're not still dating. Yeah, are we to assume that this is... Considering she said we dated for a while after... And then we got married. Well, maybe.

Maybe that was the beginning of a beautiful love story. But I'm not getting that vibe. So who drinks 10 cocktails on a date? Yeah, that's absurd. Who drinks 10 cocktails ever? Although, Jochen, I reckon you could stomach a few given your height I just like even if I even if I could I feel you know keeping up appearances I wouldn't want to be the guy drinks ten cocktails on a first date no I mean not in fine but I could

probably do ten I probably should definitely couldn't next podcast yeah on the christmas special how much can rachel drink in one sitting that's not a good idea it would not end well so anyway thank you so much for sending in your story we really enjoyed that so please do keep the dating disasters coming acas powers the world's best podcasts here's a show that we recommend i'm jesse kirkshank and on my podcast phone a friend i break down the biggest stories in pop culture but when i have questions i get to phone a friend i found my old friend dan levy you will not die hosting the Hills after show.

I get thirsty for the hot wiggle. I didn't even know a thirsty man until there was all these headlines. And I get schooled by a tween. Facebook is like a no, that's what my grandma's on. Thank God Phone a Friend with Jesse Crookshank is not available on Facebook. It's out now wherever you get your podcasts. Acast helps creators launch, grow, and monetize their podcasts everywhere. Acast.com

Anyway, on to topic two. So, what is to be too keen? So, we're talking about here when you either like someone maybe you've just started dating maybe you're just messaging and you haven't gone out yet how do you know if you're being too keen what do you guys think I don't think I'm well placed I think I either like I'm either far too keen or I'm far too unkeen I'm yet to perfect the middle ground. I'm either too hot or I'm just absolutely sub-zero and neither one works well at all. Katy Perry was singing about you, wasn't she?

Yeah, I'm either half hot or I'm cold. You're hot then you're cold. Yeah. I'm yes or I'm no. Up and then down. It's a tricky balance. In and out, which sounds a bit sexual. I think it's a really tricky balance to strike between being too hot and too cold because you don't want to be too, you don't want to seem too desperate

and show that you want to see them all the time and you'd rather hang out with them instead of your friends. And you say yes to every single date that's suggested and the time and the place and you agree with everything they say. This kind of stuff, I think, shows that you're being a little too keen. And personally, I know that if someone behaved that way with me, it would put me off. Equally, you don't want someone to seem like they're playing so hard to get

that it's almost verging on arrogance and that they don't have to try because they know that you'll just drop everything to be with them. You know what I mean? Yeah yeah it's just annoying actually when someone seems to be deliberately taking a day to reply to your messages I mean sometimes I do that but it's not on purpose it's just because I'm forget and I suppose some people like you would like to the I like to the hour as well you know when the clock strikes price I shall reply yeah I hate that and I do you know when the clock strikes thrice i shall reply yeah yeah i hate that and do you know what though the annoying thing is that if unless if they don't do it too annoyingly playing hard to

get or just being hard to get can kind of work sometimes you know the longer someone waits to apply until it gets to the point where it's annoying it kind of does make you a bit more excited and kind of want a bit more and be like, ooh, why haven't they replied yet? Why haven't they replied yet? And I'm, I don't know, if I like someone, I'm not great at it. Like, you have to actually try.

I once tried to be aloof. It did not work. It doesn't surprise me you miss sequins and rainbows. I'm too enthusiastic for life. No, there was this guy I liked and there was a function and I was like, I'm going to play it really cool and be really aloof. I tried for a bit, then totally gave in and ended up asking him out. So it didn't work.

Well, it did because we went out. But anyway, my aloofness. Is aloof like just not, you know, ignoring them when you walk in? Well, I imagine you being aloof. I imagine you walking with your chin up and just kind of looking at them from the side and like nodding and then just like walking off that's what i imagine you've been yeah exactly exactly and then you know i don't even want to go over and talk to you even though you do i don't know do you think playing hard to get works uh uh maybe i can't i can't do it myself i just i just not very good at it but i know that if i'm

on the receiving end of it it does, I'm a sucker for someone who's playing hard to get I must admit I don't really know, not that I enjoy it Yeah, I know, it's human nature though to want what you can't have or want what you think isn't into you I remember when I was dating a guy

and then I decided I was over it and I was going to end it so the week before I did that I was not it and I was gonna end it and so like the week before I did that I was like kind of like being not very not giving much on message like being quite blunt and not very chatty kind of hoping to like make him get the hint but then it seemed to be the complete opposite and he was like let's go on a weekend break and I was like a mini break yeah no um but I genuinely think that may have been because I was suddenly like not showing much interest he was more interested

which is so silly why do we do this humans? Why? Yeah but you're right it is human nature to always want what you can't have so playing hard to get I suppose gives the impression that you want me but you can't have me however

I don't know why that needed a song but it just did it was really beautiful oh thank you however I do find it incredibly refreshing if because it's really beautiful oh thank you um however i do find it incredibly refreshing if because it's so rare if someone a guy actually comes out and just tells me his feelings if he has feelings for me and he says like what he's thinking and that he really likes me or whatever it may be i'm suddenly like wow you just told me that i'm not sure if i could actually cope with

someone telling me how they feel for me in the early stages but I know what you mean and I would really appreciate it if someone this goes back to what we were talking about before actually about texting and phone calls and I think that if someone calls you out of the blue who you've maybe been texting or you've been like on a few dates with or maybe you haven't been on a date yet and if they call you and they say hey are you free tonight do you want to go on a date yet, and if they call you and they say, hey, are you free tonight? Do you want to go on a date? I think that's spontaneous, and it's not keen, but it's sort of showing that you're interested

without being too desperate-seeming. Do you know what I mean? Calling, though, that's really putting the person on the spot. Maybe a bit. I'd be like, I need to consult my diary. But I think that's part of the point because I think sometimes if you plan dates with someone too far in advance,

especially a first date, it can bigger up so it's more of a big deal. Whereas if it's just spontaneous and off the cuff, you'll probably have a better time because you weren't, you know... You don't have time to overthink it. Yeah, you weren't spending the last week worrying about what should I wear

and what should I say and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. I always find the best times you have with someone that you're interested in is when it just happens. You know, you go out with mutual friends and then, you know, go your own separate way and blah, blah, blah. That's always quite nice. That was your romantic voice. Yeah, no, sorry, that's my turn. The listeners will be swooning. Well, what can I say, yeah.

This is my non-romantic voice, and even that is supposedly sexy. We need some air in here, guys. Give me a fan. I think as well, there's a different approach to this with people of different ages. I think older people, I'm even talking about late 20s, early 30s, are more likely to lay their cards on the table and are less fussed about worrying about coming across too keen. Do you know?

Yeah, I agree. I think it's definitely something you worry about when you're keen. Do you know? Yeah, I agree. I think it's definitely something you worry about when you're younger. But should we? What's the worst that's going to happen? They're going to be like, nah. I think if you're really interested in someone, let them know.

Don't be, oh my God, I'm in love with you and I want to have your children on the first date. But there's no trouble. If they really don't know and haven't picked up the signals tell them otherwise they'll never know but it's that's like so scary say you've got a crush on someone say you've got like i don't know you fancy someone and then you maybe you don't know if they fancy you but you're like you're like exchanging some messages and you're like hmm is this flirty is is not flirty does he like me does it not like me like to to in that situation like you haven't even gone on a date

to put yourself out there it's bold and it's scary yeah terrifying actually yeah yeah definitely i i know a guy who's i know a guy many guys one of them, his Tinder strategy is to say, look, I'm terrible at this, like, you know, cyber date. I didn't say cyber date

in bloody hell, it's not 2004. I'm terrible at Tinder. But you know, you look nice, you want to go on a date, let's do it. And that way,

you just, you cut all the, I'll just swear. No, because then we have to get an E. Cut all the BS. Yeah, no, good, good. And then you just, you know,

I feel that that sets a nice precedent, you know, like. Yeah. If they say no, you know, game over. If they say yes, then you just know that you can just say these things and just move on. See, guys have said that to me before on dating apps and I usually don't go for it.

So it's not going to work with everyone, obviously. Yeah. I suppose maybe the right girl for him. I'm all for cutting the BS, though. I think that's a very good way to think about it. Well, you're too scared to go out with a bumble boy anyway, aren't you? Yeah. I didn't get asked out by a bumble boy.

But that's because I was too scared to have conversations with them. Well, I am still in conversations with Tom of Bumble Buy of the Week from a few weeks ago. Are you? Yeah, I'm not sure how patient he's going to be because I just sort of couldn't find any time my diary and then i'm actually going on holiday for a long weekend and then it's christmas time and i'm just he seems really nice but it's yeah so anyway i'll keep

you posted i'm sure everyone's really intrigued as to something will come up things get cancelled yeah well we'll see we'll see we'll see. If they had something to do tomorrow night and they got cancelled, you'd be like, Tom, what are you saying? Let's go. He actually did suggest tomorrow night. Really? Well, I'm not free, though.

What have you got? I'm going to tell you my private plans. Okay. Plus, actually, when this comes out, it will be yesterday, not tomorrow anyway, so that's going to be confusing. So who knows? Maybe I did go out with Tom tomorrow slash yesterday.

I know. We're traveling through time here. Back to the future. Anyway, speaking of Bumble bios, we have another Bumble bio of the week. Now, this is... I think Jochen was excited about that. Yeah. Now, it's funny because we didn't mean to pick another one that was slightly brexit-related but um fact matter is these just make me

chuckle so here we go this is from a guy named Jack and that's all the info you're getting he says hoping to leave the single market before the UK does. I thought that was very good. I think that's really witty. That's all right, yeah. Witty is always good. Short, sweet, snappy, a bit different. Topical. Topical, exactly. Interested in current affairs.

Quite. Probably reads the news. Yeah. Maybe an economics graduate. Oh. Maybe he might know and talk about the single market. And they're clever. Yeah.

I know. Or maybe it's all a ruse. You never know. Maybe he's just trying to... He's just an absolute idiot and he just had it on the they're clever. Yeah. I know. Or maybe it's all a ruse. You never know. Maybe he's just trying to... He's just an absolute idiot and he just heard it on the news one day. Yeah. I'm going to put that on my bio.

Yeah. The thing is though, you never know. Make girls think I'm clever. You never know. You know, maybe someone is listening to this every week

and stealing our Bumble bios of the week. Just has like 10 bios. That's true. If you do that, please email us and let us know how that's going for you. Yeah, genuinely. If you take one of the Bumble bios of the week. Just has like 10 bios. That's true. If you do that, please email us and let us know how that's going for you.

Yeah, genuinely. If you take one of the Bumble bios, like, hey, kudos for you to being bold enough to steal them. Hey, maybe you even stole our ideas from when we had our Bumbles bios. I think they would have stolen mine.

I think they would have stolen yours. No, come on. Yours was funny. You've inspired a whole nation of peanut butter aficionados. There are quite a lot of us out there. So it's not actually that, it's not as unique as i thought to be honest but um i just feel that strongly about peanut butter so that's good well that's it for today uh please subscribe rate and review us

on itunes as this helps other people discover our wonderful podcast not that we think it's wonderful of course we think it's just like i think it's wonderful, of course. We think it's just like... I think it's wonderful. Jochen. Jochen, stop it. We're spooning. Such a charmer, this guy. You can come back. Anyway,

and if you have a dating disaster story, we would love to hear it. So please do write it in either an iTunes review. You can send it to us privately via email at millennial.love

at independent.co.uk do not worry all stories will be kept anonymous if you would rather tweet it to us i mean we have so many modes of communication here you can tweet us either openly or by a direct message and i am at rachel underscore hosie olivia is at olivia petter one and if you also have any thoughts or feedback um or any ideas for the podcast, what you've liked, what you haven't liked, we really want to know. So just let us know,

whichever way is easiest for you. And thank you so much for listening. Jochen, thank you for joining us once again. It's been a pleasure. The pleasure's been ours. Thanks, everyone. And we'll see you next week. Bye.

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Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. I'm a good her team are researching how both Indigenous and non-Indigenous youth cope with cyber aggression, working to bridge the diversity gap in child psychology research. At UBC, our researchers are answering today's most pressing questions. To learn how we're moving the world forward, visit ubc.ca forward happens here.