Love Lives - #13 'Cat Person' and do you always feel closer to someone after having sex with them?

Episode Date: December 15, 2017

The topic on everyone's lips this week has been 'Cat Person', the short story about the early stages of dating someone which was published on the New Yorker and went viral - many young women have found it incredibly relatable, but it's also controversial in some ways, which is the main topic we're discussing this week. We're also talking about sex - there's a stereotype that after sleeping with someone, a woman always falls in love with them, but is that true? And what's the science behind it? We delve in.Support this show http://supporter.acast.com/millenniallove. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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Hello and welcome to Millennial Love, the Independent Lifestyle Desk's weekly podcast on love, dating and relationships. Hosted by me, Olivia Petter, lifestyle writer. And me, Rachel Hosey, assistant lifestyle editor. Each week we'll be discussing the core dating issues affecting millennials today. There are endless podcasts out there on love and relationships, but we felt that no one was really speaking directly to our generation, where people ghost, zombie and breadcrumb each other quicker than you can say Tinder. Today we're going to talk about two super interesting topics. The first one being post-sex serotonin. Now this is the

hormone that gets released after you have sex with someone and it basically it gives you it's that kind of happy feeling that makes you feel more connected to someone and can you know sometimes make you develop feelings that you didn't have before. But we wanted to start with the topic everyone's been talking about all week. And this is the short story that was featured in the New Yorker called Cat Person,

which you've probably seen all over your Twitter feeds this week. But if you haven't, perhaps Olivia, can you explain it? So if you haven't read it, it's been all over Twitter with that very sort of garish social picture of those two people kissing really close up. And it's by a fairly unknown writer called Kristen Rupenian. I think that's how you say her last name. How do you... Rupenian?

Kristen Rupenian. Okay. We're very sorry, Kristen. Yeah, that's the trouble with being a writer, not a broadcaster. Yeah. But interestingly, this is the first thing she's ever written for The New Yorker, and it has gone viral. That's insane.

I know. She's never done anything before. How hard writers try to make a story go viral. I know. Her first one, she comes out with this. I mean, respect to her. I know. Well, I think there's a lot of reasons why this one has resonated so much.

Big time. So, basically, the crux of the story is it's told through the perspective of this 20 year old student called margo and she is working at a local cinema when this guy robert comes in and asks for some red vines which are some very niche sweets i presume they were an american thing yeah i think so they sell such weird stuff at american cinemas um that's besides the point. I'm thinking like Twizzlers vibe. That's what I'm going for.

Okay. Anyway, the suites that they are is sort of irrelevant to the story. Yeah, so irrelevant. Anyway, so Robert is this 34 year old guy and they... At the time, she doesn't know he's 34. No, she knows he's older,

but she doesn't know. She thinks mid-twenties or so. Yeah. So they have this like flirty text exchange and they have a few meetings and essentially culminates in this quite awkward, uncomfortable sexual encounter and which leads Margot to break it off brutally via text.

And then... Well, her friend actually sends the text for her. Well, yeah, exactly. Because she's too afraid to to set to be so brutal she says something like i'm not interested in you anymore i think we should stop seeing each other something really blunt um please stop talking to me or something yeah something like that and um and then he sees her out in a bar one night and she ignores him and it's a bit awkward and then she gets all these drunk texts from him the next day. Wait, we don't know

he's drunk. Well, you can sort of tell that he's drunk because in the text that he sends there are a lot of typos. I know, but I still think that doesn't necessarily

mean he's drunk. Yeah, maybe not. I mean, I read it that way but maybe not. Interesting. And then, anyway, the final text that he does send to her

calls her a whore. Yeah, it's awful. It's the last minute she's like, he goes, are you sleeping with that guy I saw you with? Are you? Are you? Are you? Whore. Yeah. It's the last minute. She's like, were you, he goes, are you sleeping with that guy I saw you with?

Are you, are you, are you? Whore. Yeah. Which is just horrendous. And this story has, it's gone huge. I can't believe how big it's gone. Basically, it's all these women, especially those in their 20s,

sharing it going, oh my God, this is so relatable. And a lot of men going, wait, what, why? I don't get it. What are you all on about and there are so many parts of this that i'm just like oh my god yes that yes that one of the things that i found most interesting was the fact that she gets scared she has these irrational thoughts that when she's alone with him he might murder her or rape her or you know and i've so had those fears i remember when i like went back to a guy's

house after a few dates and I just suddenly thought to myself like what if he rapes me what if he kills me yeah and to be honest with you I just don't think that's a fear men get when they're alone with a woman no I don't think they feel as vulnerable but also I think that says a lot about the way that their relationship starts which is the way that most relationships start nowadays which is via text via this passive communication rather than in real life and I think the issue with that particularly with this story is that you know Margot says when she's texting him they never spoke about anything personal they're just sort of trying to impress each other the whole time telling witty jokes and one-liners and it allows you to almost project this vision of what that person is actually like

in your head without actually knowing them at all because she's never spent any time with him in her life so that's where that fear then comes from it's like she's in the car with him and she suddenly realizes oh god I don't know anything about this person and I'm going to his house to have sex with him but what if he rapes me what if he murders me and that's so relatable but I think that is because of how their relationship started yeah that's what i think is another yeah definitely something that i totally related to it's like if you um meet a guy at a party or something and then you move on to messaging and you message for you know a week or so and you can completely construct this image of someone in your head that is it's completely idealized and romanticized

and then your imagination just gets carried away with you and and that then you you meet them and you're like whoa actually this person maybe isn't what who i'd made them out to be at all yeah and i think it's really interesting this story just perfectly shows how the power shifts change because there are we see times when Margot feels all like sassy and oh, I feel so confident and sexy because I know he fancies me so much to being scared and vulnerable, which I think is really interesting. that she felt the need to be polite and nice all the time which i think is something women you know have been brought up to feel like we need to do so a big main example of this and obviously this whole podcast is spoilers so if you haven't listened to it give us a little pause i mean if you haven't read it pause the podcast go read it then come back um so basically they go on this date and when they've had a few drinks and then she, you know, decides they, she wants to go back to his, um, and he has cats. That's why the story

is called cat person. And, um, so they get into his bedroom, you know, and is it, it's as if they're going to have sex. She then realizes she doesn't want to. However, she feels like because sex has been initiated she can't change her mind because that would be rude and i think that's another thing a lot of women have experienced i don't know how is it the same for men but for women that is very common to feel like you don't want to feel like oh i'm a tease or i led them on if you think you want sex and then you change your mind, for whatever reason that might be. I think particularly in this scenario, it's quite prevalent because she is the one that almost initiates it as well because they're sitting in the bar and she's the one that says,

right, should we get out of here? And then she says when they leave the bar and they're standing outside, she says something like, I presented myself to him, ready for him to kiss me. She's very much for one yeah she's very much the one that's driving this forward so I think then to and it's it's so it's so common because you know you change your mind about people all the time and it's very realistic so then she gets back to his house and she realizes god I'm in a stranger's house this is

kind of uncomfortable and then she sees him getting undressed and it makes her recoil a bit and well yeah that is another very interesting issue that's been brought up from this some people have accused i don't know if it's accusing the writer or the character they say the story is fat shaming because there are actually quite a few yeah that is interesting yeah i know there are a lot of mentions in the story of Robert's belly. Yeah. And one thing that was, I thought, really stuck in my mind was when they're back at his house and she's, you know, they're going to have sex. And he takes off his, well, he undoes his trousers, undoes his trousers even, I can't speak. Undoes his trousers.

Undoes his trousers. And then, you know, goes to take them off, but then realizes he hasn't taken his shoes off. I mean, we all do that. So then he bends over to undo his shoes. And then there's some mention of that, meaning she really gets a view of his, like, hairy, big belly. And there's all these mentions to, like, his hefty weight on top of her. And it basically, it says that Margot sort of recoils and feels repulsed and disgusted and obviously you know there is no obligation for her to be attracted to him you know you don't have to fancy everyone

however it's in the story it makes it seem like she is being repulsed by his body when she notices you know his size and she said before what he was wearing it covered it up and um and she feels the need to push past her disgust at his body and i think yeah a lot of people have said i mean there's just it really goes on about yeah but can i say i think the reason why that is so clever on the writer's part is because it really drives home the difference between expectation and reality when it comes to relationships so like we were saying before how you know she doesn't really know this person they've only spoken via text she's only really met him once or twice why would she know what

his body looks like it you know in her mind he's probably got this perfect adonis like figure and he's allowed to have that figure in her head he's probably got this perfect adonis like figure and he's allowed to have that figure in her head because she's projected that onto him and it sort of like emphasizes the weird paradigm between what actually you expect and what actually happens in a relationship however i don't i really don't like this it actually i think it does not this aspect of the story i think does nothing for body positivity and body confidence because I know that for myself, for other women,

for men, we may feel like, you know, confident in our clothes. We know how to dress for our figures, but a lot of us are terrified at the prospect of undressing in someone in front of someone and then seeing our naked bodies or our bodies in our underwear. Because we don't feel confident with what we look like.

And we have this fear that when someone actually sees your naked body, your body, what it looks like, without flattering clothes on, they're not going to find you attractive. Yeah, I agree with you. I mean, it's a weird aspect of the story that that's what she chose, that's what the writer chose to focus in on that his in his belly but again i do think that again emphasizes what you were saying like how vulnerable people are when they have sex and when they show you know when they take all their clothes off in front of a person it even though it's written from the perspective of margot you you sort of

end up sympathizing with robert on this i keep wanting to call him robbie because of margot you you sort of end up sympathizing with robert on this i keep wanting to call him robbie because of margot robbie oh gosh that's funny it's really annoying what i think is interesting as well is in the story you don't know whether robert is the villain or the victim i think i don't think it's either it's very interesting and some people have said you know the character of margot is this you know privileged educated slim young white woman and she and he and he's she's treated as a man fairly a lot of people said however what i think is hilarious well not actually hilarious it's actually quite troubling but really interesting is the fact that so much of the criticism of this story fat shaming aside has been very misogynistic so much so that someone some genius somewhere created a twitter account called men response to men respond to cat person

where it literally just shared responses from men to the story have you seen it yeah i have but i think one of the reasons why it has prompted such misogynistic comments do you want to give some examples as well yeah i mean i don't i don't have them no well they they just say they just say things like i don't get it she was such a tease and it's just it's just very much saying they just completely don't understand the female viewpoint yeah so what i was going to say i think the reason why that happens is because this story it's very rare that we get access to fiction that is purely the internal discourse of a female voice and that it that voice becomes so mainstream in popular culture. Think about the majority of rom-coms or films that,

you know, it's very rare that the protagonist is a female and it's, the story is exclusively told through her point of view as it is in this case. And I think because of that, you know, it's, it's one of the first times that so many people have engaged with that

solo female voice in a narrative that it has shocked people to the extent where people are almost eager to criticize it because they think, how can this person think that? But it's like, that's what all women think in their heads. You just never see that. What I really thought was, I think like a lot of the things

that the character of Margot thinks is so relatable, but many women think um must be crazy like yeah exactly and they doubt themselves but i think it's so common what she goes through to change your mind over someone and it's very hard to know yeah how much you like someone if you really want to do that like it's not something that a lot of people do casually even though it may sound casual but it's not i've just found an example of like some of the responses that men have been giving. This was shared on the Twitter page. This guy goes, but we live in a world where women's safety is more important than men's feelings.

Majority of abuse helplines are for women. Men taught women first. Never hit a woman. There is a there is never a reason to hit a woman. Even when the man is justified, people believe the man is in the wrong. Like what? It's just so closed-minded, isn't it? And then someone else goes,

I love how this somehow turned into an anti-male story. I must have read it very differently. I didn't see any issues of consent at all. She was just confused and unsure. Then she ghosted him. The worst thing he did was call her a name at the very end. I mean, that's not the worst thing he did. No, it's not.

But also, it's not about consent. Like, it is consensual sex, but it's unwanted sex, which is how the author describes it when she wrote this editorial for The New Yorker after the story. And that's what she says. It is unwanted sex, which I think is very common. I completely agree. Because it is this fear of, you know,

hurting the other person's feelings or fear of humiliation. Exactly. It's actually almost when you're trying to be nice and you're trying to be a good person that sometimes then you can end up hurting someone even though you're trying actually not to. Yeah.

I think one of the most poignant bits of the story for me, which I saw circulating a lot online, highlighted by various people, was the bit after she's slept with him and she's realised that she's no longer interested in him, but she's still thinking about him. And then she realises that she's not actually thinking about him, but she's sort of nostalgic towards the idea

that she had projected of him. So I'll just read out this one little bit every so often over the next day or so she would find herself in a gray daydreamy mood missing something and she'd realized that it was robert she missed not the real robert but the robert she'd imagined on the other end of all those text messages during break and that is so common I think for people to just fantasize about this person and you just build them up in your head to the point where they could it's impossible for them to live up to your expectations you'll always inevitably be disappointed yeah it's really hard it's really hard and I think that's another issue like going slightly off topic um it's that's an

issue with dating apps as well because you can like look at pictures of someone and from their messages create this idea in your head and that's why I think a lot of people get um you know actually a bit depressed after a date when it doesn't live up to this idea they've had in their head yeah totally but anyway I don't know I think overall I think it's a brilliant piece of writing the ending was so striking but i was so like oh my god yes that is it's i was quite disappointed by the end oh no oh i loved it because i thought it was so like this sort of it's the fragile masculinity idea yeah guys a lot of guys and i'm sorry if this sounds really like we're just two ranty women,

a lot of guys are really nice until you reject them or are not interested in them and then they suddenly get defensive and say all these horrible things to you. And I have experienced that firsthand and it is awful and it makes you feel like the worst person in the world but really it's just their own, like you said, fragile ego. but I think to write him up to write Robert off at the end of the story as the author

has done with him calling her a whore feels a bit like a cheap shot and I just think given the complexity of the rest of the story there could have been a more impactful way to end it I think because using you know it's the only expletive in the entire story I think and so it really stands out and makes an impact and I just I'm not entirely sure if I feel comfortable with the way that he's just been written off as you know some kind of a-hole that uses those words towards women uses derogatory terms like that i mean i just thought it was very um realistic actually yeah anyway it's definitely raised loads of interesting talking points so if you have any thoughts on it like do tweet us at rachel underscore hose you're at olivia

petter wong so we'd love to hear your thoughts totally i think it's super interesting. ACAST powers the world's best podcasts. Here's a show that we recommend. I'm Jessie Kirkshank, and on my podcast, Phone a Friend, I break down the biggest stories in pop culture. But when I have questions, I get to phone a friend. I phone my old friend, Dan Levy. You will not die hosting the Hills after show. I get thirsty for the hot wiggle. I didn't even know a thirsty man until there was all these headlines. And I get schooled by a tween. Facebook is like a node. That's what my grandma's on.

Thank God Phone a Friend with Jesse Cruikshank is not available on Facebook. It's out now wherever you get your podcasts. friend with jesse crookshank is not available on facebook it's out now wherever you get your podcasts a cast helps creators launch grow and monetize their podcasts everywhere a cast.com anyway let's move on to the dating disaster of the week considering that story was a whole disaster um thank you so much for sending this in. This is from someone who DM'd me on Twitter, slid into my DMs. All right, so here we go. I was seeing this guy for a few months, and he's about four years younger than me.

He had a bit of a bee in his bonnet about me being older than him. We were at dinner one night and talking about negotiating our salaries and pay rises. He's a big four accountant, and I'm a lawyer. We were at dinner one night and talking about negotiating our salaries and pay rises. He's a big four accountant and I'm a lawyer. He made a comment about how he thinks I probably earn more than him based on comments I'd made in the past about negotiating salaries. Then I said, I'm four years older than you and law pays more than accounting generally, so I probably do. And he said, let's write down the salary range we think the other earns and swap.

Rather taken aback, I went along with it, wrote what I thought he earned, and then we swapped. He guessed the right range for mine and said, wow, well, I guess you're older than me, so I'll be earning more than you than what you're earning now in four years time, unless I give up on life and go staff, i.e. non-client-facing side. I got quite defensive, but what a dick move. He also dumped me in the middle of Trafalgar Square after the theatre, when he said he wasn't seeing anyone else currently,

but wouldn't go exclusive because he didn't want to rule out the possibility of other women in the future. God, there is just so many problems with that story. So gross. First of all, that has to be the problems with that story. So gross. First of all, that has to be the least attractive thing to talk about money in any sense on a first date. It's not a first date.

I think she's been seeing each other for a few weeks. Oh, yeah. No, a few months. A few months. Okay, but still, to talk about money with the person that you're dating and how much you earn, I wouldn't even talk to my friends about that, really.

It's just so crass.'s it's like you know i feel like people don't need to be like you don't always need to be cagey about money and salary and who you're with and i do think you know actually you know in some instances a lot of times when actually being more open about salaries can help with equality um however the way he went about it write down what bracket you think i'm in and i mean what do you know what as well i'm gonna i'm gonna say this again that male ego that's what everyone's gonna everyone's gonna hate me for this well no not the woke men who i would enjoy um i think oh it's so tricky a lot of men feel emasculated by a woman

earning more than them hashtag not all men I know however I think this guy couldn't deal with it the fact that the woman he was dating earned more than him and he had to justify it to himself like well it's only because you're older when I'm your age I'll be earning more than you

such an archaic way of thinking though and also just so yeah i love that roll of the tongue no that wasn't really meant to be a part i think that had quite the opposite effect it went a bit anyway anyway yeah i mean poor girl and then he dumped her in trafalgar square yeah it's a bit sad really sad also of all places to be dumped and to be like i'm not actually seeing anyone else but i just want to keep my options open yeah oh horrendous we really feel for you but we're grateful to you for sending it in also we do want some dating disasters from men as well so please do send those in we know we have some male fans we know you're listening we've spoken to you thanks for the feedback for the feedback. Now send us your stories. Because we know that women can be awful too.

Yeah, they very much can. Speaking of which, no, I'm joking. This isn't speaking of which. So this is a topic which I think is super interesting. And this is about, now we don't want to get too scientific, because obviously neither of us are that hot on our science. Now this is the idea of the serotonin which is one of the hormones which is released after you have sex with someone

so basically it it's it's sort of released it's released in men and women and it's i don't know if it's serotonin because serotonin and oxytocin yeah i think it's both of them so serotonin is the one that makes you happy. Isn't it serotonin and oxytocin? Yeah, I think it's both of them. So serotonin and oxytocin. Oxytocin is known as the cuddle hormone. Hilarious. And serotonin is known as the happy hormone, which I think you also get from exercise and a whole other range of things. But essentially why it's this feeling of attachment after you have sex is more prevalent in women than in men is because oxytocin

is kind of the effect of it is amplified by estrogen and it's dulled by testosterone so obviously that means that women who have estrogen feel more attached to men after they sleep with them than a man and you know the effect of which has been well documented by various studies for a man it's you know it's called like la petit mort or something in French. It's when men feel exhausted and they just want to go to sleep. Oh my God, they always just fall asleep. Yeah, so that is also the reverse effect. And women feel energized and they want to cuddle

and that's all down to your hormones. Yeah, I think it's super interesting. And like, so serotonin is also, is the hormone that kind of, I think it's linked to love. I don't know if it's what makes you fall in love but it's what's happening when when you're falling in love and i think what you said that you know that bit about the testosterone and like makes so much sense because i actually read this stat ages ago um and i think it's quite rough it's basically that uh i can't remember if it's two thirds or three quarters i think it's three quarters of um men can do sort of casual sex friends with benefits whatever it might be um no strings attached

without starting to feel attached whereas women it's the opposite three quarters can't do that without developing feelings really see i just i just don't know if that's entirely true obviously like i understand the scientific bit of it but i know so many women who not just don't know if that's entirely true obviously like i understand the scientific bit of it but i know so many women who not they don't sleep around but they you know sex isn't necessarily something super meaningful to them you know completely and i think that's a really damaging stereotype that women can't enjoy sex the same way that men can big time and that is something that is so ingrained in films oh it's so annoying actually yeah the guys think you're suddenly going to be really needy yeah it's and it's almost it's

just a horrible idea it's so derogatory yeah i don't like it i don't like it at all however however i do think that after you have sex with someone, sometimes you do then feel you like them more than you did before. Yeah, I think you do, but not necessarily because, I mean, maybe it is because of the hormone, but I think, you know, even when we were talking about cat person, when you have sex with someone, you are very vulnerable with them. You're naked, you're in this intimate situation that it's just the two of you and you feel very vulnerable with them you are yeah you're naked you're like you're in this intimate situation that it's just the two of you and it's you feel very connected to them so i think it's only natural then that you will obviously feel more attached to them but i don't think that necessarily means that you know it could be it could be short term i don't think necessarily means that you can't then that you fall in love with someone immediately after you

sleep with them i just don't think it works to that extreme degree no and like cat person case in point well exactly sleeping with him she was like actually no exactly like sex can be awful and awkward and it often is first time yeah sometimes it's when you have sex with someone and then you're like no yeah we don't connect yeah we don't. But I don't know. The whole main thing is interesting because it is scientific and it is, you know, actually proven. But, yeah, I don't know. I don't think it's always necessarily the case that you're going to suddenly fall in love with someone

because you have sex with them. It's just not, is it? No, it's just not the case. But then I do know people who have started relationships where they've literally slept with someone on the first date and they've been together for two or three years. Well, yeah, and I have a friend who, her current boyfriend who she now lives with,

they started out just having casual sex. Really? Yeah, for actually weeks. But then, I mean, then i guess it was mutual they both decided actually want this to be more i think that's quite rare that both of them were in that same headspace yes and i actually think it's very risky because even if at the start you tell yourself i don't know i'm not going to get attached i'm not going to get attached um you know as the song goes well no this isn't quite right i was going to

say don't be afraid to catch feels is that wait how does the song go no stop trying to make me sing it go on don't be afraid to catch feels that was so beautiful rachel i remember quite the singer i was in choir at school you can probably tell um well that's the thing you can't always predict when you're going to catch feels no which i think is a lovely turn of phrase yeah i agree but i think there's many more things that can happen in a relationship sex aside that can help you catch feels for sure i think it's a general i mean a gradual process yeah sometimes feel catching sometimes kissing can almost feel more oh yeah oh yeah like well like sometimes you oh yeah yeah snogging is great quote of the podcast snogging is great uh just sort of like i really just like thought about that for a second i was like yeah that's great um no but completely before you know sometimes

you you you know are not actually sure if you fancy someone they have a great snog and you're like yeah yeah I totally do. Yeah, exactly. Sometimes it doesn't need to be the full-blown sex. However, I don't know if all the hormone situation releaseage

comes from a good old snog. No, I think that's more of a make-out sesh. Yeah, probably more of a mental thing, I think. Is it linked with orgasm?

Like, if you don't orgasm, does it not happen? Yeah, it is linked with orgasm. So I should have mentioned that. So oxytocin is released when you orgasm. Like if you don't orgasm, does it not happen? Yeah, it is linked with orgasm. So I should have mentioned that. So oxytocin is released when you orgasm. So if you don't orgasm, you're not getting it. Yeah, that's true. But then what we were talking about before,

just the whole act and being naked with someone is naturally going to bring you closer to them. So oxytocin or not. For sure. Well, anyway, I don't think we can reach any conclusion on this. Sex might make you feel closer to someone. But it might not. Or it might not.

Very conclusive episode of Millennial. Yeah, good. We're just throwing up all the answers here. Right. So Bumble Bio of the Week. Now, we have to say, what would it be in Christmas and it being very busy time? Olivia and I haven't actually had much time for bumbling. No, we really haven't so this um bumble buyer of the week is actually not one we've seen this week

but it's one I saw months ago and I just loved so much that I remembered it um off by heart yeah it's not long oh my god but I just I just I really liked it um however it's questionable for a podcast because it sort of doesn't really make sense spoken you have to read it written down i'm gonna do it anyway and so just disclaimer with you're not gonna be like that's amazing until i sort of explain it um okay so it goes i can't remember the name of this guy don't know if we match but anyway relevant i know he had a great buyer yeah so he goes what's your favorite a manger a way in or pret like pret a manger away in a manger yeah i mean i I thought that was brilliant. Yeah, I get it. It's cute. I love Pratt. I love all Christmas songs

and all Christmas things. Look forward to next week's episode, guys. It's going to be festive themed. It's a very timely bio. I wonder if he changes it to go with the seasons. Do you know what? I don't think it was even anything remotely around Christmas time. Oh, was it not?

But considering Pratt is a good place for a Christmas sandwich as Oh, was it not? Yeah. But considering, you know, Pret is a good place for a Christmas sandwich as well. That's true. Then, you know, arguably it is quite a festive bio. But maybe is that something we should be doing? Seasonal bios?

To be fair, mine does. I mean, you're asking the wrong gal. It's the Grinch herself. Oh, yeah. I mean, this is the Grinch. It's Olivia the Grinch and me being essentially Buddy the Elf. She literally has fairy lights around her computer and tinsel.

She wore a tinsel hairband yesterday. It was a scrunchie. Yes, a tinsel scrunchie. A tinsel scrunchie! You know, why not? Why not? It's Christmas. It's the time.

I feel like this may be why I'm single, because I wear tinsel scrunchies. But, you know, I'm not going to change who I am. I'm going to find the man that loves tinsel scrunchies, Rachel. Yeah, I don't going to change who I am. I'm going to find the man that loves tinsel scrunchies, Rachel. Yeah, I don't know if he's out there. I'm sure he's a niche character, but I'm sure he's out there. Well, if that's one thing we've learned from our experts in recent

weeks, it's don't compromise on yourself. No, exactly. And have a checklist. And yours should be likes tinsel scrunchies. Yeah, but potentially not on himself. I don't know. Actually, I think about it. No, but potentially not on himself. No, that, I don't know. Actually, now I think about it. No, I'm not sure. Maybe not.

Maybe not. Anyway, alas, that is it for today. So please subscribe, rate us highly, I hope. Review us on iTunes as this helps other people discover our podcast, which we do work hard on, so we'd love to spread it far and wide and if you do have a dating disaster story please send them in uh to millennial millennial.love at independent.co.uk and don't worry all stories will be kept anonymous and boys we want to hear from you especially so please send them in and you can also tweet us at rachel underscore hosie and at

olivia petter one see you next week bye And you can also tweet us at Rachel underscore Hosey and at Olivia Petter 1. See you next week. Bye. SOS Podcasts. Here's a show that we recommend. I'm Jessie Kirkshank, and on my podcast, Phone a Friend, I break down the biggest stories in pop culture. But when I have questions, I get to phone a friend. I phone my old friend, Dan Levy. You will not die hosting the Hills after show. I get thirsty for the hot wiggle. I didn't even know what thirsty meant until there was all these headlines. And I get schooled by a tween. Facebook is like a no.

That's what my grandma's on. Thank God Phone a Friend with Jessie Crookshank is not available on Facebook. It's out now wherever you get

your podcasts. Acast helps creators launch, grow, and monetize their podcasts everywhere. Acast.com.