Love Lives - #37 Love Island: Consent, body image and the problem with on-screen relationships

Episode Date: June 8, 2018

Everyone's favourite summer reality series is back. There's been grafting, cracking on and plenty of muggy, melty behaviour. This week, Rachel and Livi are diving deep into the world of Love Island and the mirror up to society it holds. How much of what we see reflects real-life dating?As much as we enjoy the show, there are issues around it: why is there no body diversity and does it send a dangerous message about consent?Follow us on Instagram to stay up-to-date! https://www.instagram.com/millennial_love/Support this show http://supporter.acast.com/millenniallove. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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Hello and welcome to Millennial Love, the Independent Lifestyle Desk's weekly podcast on love, dating and relationships. Hosted by me, Olivia Petter, Lifestyle Desk's weekly podcast on love, dating and relationships hosted by me, Olivia Petter, lifestyle writer, and me, Rachel Hosey, assistant lifestyle editor. Dating today is a world away from what it was just even 10 years ago. We've got dating apps, we've got ghosting, we've got all sorts of lovely things and that is why we decided to launch Millennial Love as two long-time singletons in their 20s, talking candidly about all of the things we're doing, but not always willing to admit. This week we are going to be talking about the topic on everyone's lips, and that is Love Island.

Love Island has returned to our screens this week for its fourth series. In case you actually are outside the UK and didn't even know what Love Island is, it's a reality TV series. We'll give you a little bit of an explainer of how that works later on but it has brought up many many talking points regarding the dating world, love, confidence, consent, body image and we're going to have a deep dive into it I just made a pouty face just to be like, oh, yes, I'm so excited. I know. I didn't know if that was a pre-saying something pout or just a, oh, yeah.

It was more of an, oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Love Island. Love Island. Before we move to the island, Livvy, get inside the villa. Move to the island of love. It literally is the island of love and many other questionable things. What have you been doing apart from watching love island apart from watching love island i have been trying to do some

running i'm going on a run on saturday for the lady garden campaign which is the charity campaign backed by the gynecological cancer fund that sounds very good which is quite fun um so that'll be 10k in Hyde Park oh well done yeah which is exciting um it's quite a long way 10k it's quite a long way I think as I run quite a lot not to toot my own horn but I do just just not for exercise just because I quite like it and I tell you you're one of those annoying people who's just like I feel like I want to go for a run yeah I'm one of people. But maybe I'm annoying because I actually do like other exercises. So it's the same thing. So I'm hoping I won't find it too hard, but that should be fun. And I have also, well, I haven't actually watched it yet,

but I was talking to my stepdad and he said that there is a new dating show which sounds right up my street. It is called Country Dating or Love in the Countryside. I mean, questionable that you said that's right up your street considering you've never lived in the countryside. No, but I have fantasies about moving to the countryside and living with animals and, you know, being away from... You would actually hate it though.

Yeah, maybe. I mean, yeah, I'm a very city girl. But I like the idea of being in silence. You know what I mean? It's not silence there's like cockerels all over the shop there won't be cockerels in my country house okay sure um so anyway it's basically it's inspired by country living magazine who has its own dating site weirdly called country loving and the aim is to combat loneliness for farmers living in

rural parts of the UK. So there are eight farmers and they're all ages. They're not just in their 20s. There are some of them in their 50s. But what I like about the concept is that it's so vastly different from something like Love Island, which is all like honed and toned 20-somethings. Wasn't Chris from last year like a farmer or something? He was, yeah. Good segue.

I didn't even, that was just like a genuine question. So I'm going to watch that. I'll let you know how I get on. Excellent. I think I'm going to have to watch that too, actually. Yeah. Sounds rather fascinating. Tell me about your morning.

My morning. Yeah. So we are recording this on Wednesday and this is the day that I appeared on This Morning, which actually is very difficult to talk about because I keep being like, I went on This Morning this morning, and it's almost like, what are you saying? You could just say I went on TV this morning. It's a bit vague. Yes, that's true.

I suppose it's leaving it open for questions. Anyway, This Morning is a morning TV show on ITV. Shock, guys. Spoiler alert! With Holly Willoughby and Philip Schofield, who were smaller than I expected in real life. But I think most people on TV

are smaller than you think. They always are. Yeah, it's really weird. Yeah, I think I'm too big for TV as a human. But anyway, they were lovely, actually. Very nice. And it was a lot of fun. It was actually so, so exciting. So interesting. I was a lot of fun it was actually so so exciting so interesting I was a bit nervous obviously because it's live tv but um it was great and I went on to talk actually about Love Island and specifically about the lack of body diversity

which I'd written a comment piece on um the day before um and I sort of hadn't really clicked in my head that I was going on an ITV program to criticize an ITV program, but I did not make that link either. No, it hit me afterwards and I was like, huh, arguably quite good that I didn't really, that didn't really click in my brain before though, because otherwise, I don't know, I wouldn't have wanted to feel like I couldn't say what I wanted to say. Yeah. But I guess that's why they do it because I suppose legally legally you can't really criticise a show on another channel. Exactly, like when the BBC is interviewing someone from the BBC about the BBC that happened recently, which was all very meta.

But anyway, it was really fun, and so that's great, and segues in nicely to what we're actually going to talk about today, because clearly I have a lot of opinions, because i'm just spewing them out everywhere firstly let's do bio of the week now it's just i'm doing something slightly different with bio of the week this week in that this is a bio i really dislike we've i'm actually giving us an example of a bad bio so i'm not going to tell you what dating up it's from um i know sometimes we disagree on them sometimes we like them more than others but this one is just quite shocking if you ask me it's from I'm not even going to name him actually this time I'm just going to say a 30 year old man here is his bio far too picky but I figured it out. Colon Independent spirit Long, thick, dark hair.

Heart eye emoji Probably not British, most likely Eastern European. 5 foot 5 to 5 foot 7.5 Brackets I'm 6 foot. Close brackets. Semicolon Slim legs and heels.

Cold exterior slash warm heart more ambiguous glances than smiles what oh my god I can't get my head around this what bad romcom has he seen this made me rage so much

he's just given this incredibly restrictive list of what he's looking for and i think we've sort of touched on this before when we talked about bios but even if i was in this like 2.5 inch height range that he wants with slim legs and i wore heels and i was eastern european with long thick dark hair and had an independent spirit and did ambiguous glances rather than smiles and had a cold exterior and a warm heart i mean no one's gonna tick all those boxes but if i did i'd be like you're clearly a dickhead can you just also but can you just

imagine one girl just going through that list and then being like oh yeah five between five foot five and five seven yeah i'm five six five foot seven point five i'm sorry um and just like being like mentally going through it being like yeah tick tick warm heart cold exterior oh my god that's me this is the man for me i know what does he expect i don't i fully don't understand this slim legs and heels oh no like literally piss off no one wears heels oh this guy is definitely a misogynist. Oh my God, yeah. Long, thick, dark hair. Not even a nice guy misogynist. He's just putting it out there. Putting his misogyny out there for all to see.

Bit racist as well. Yeah. Probably not British. No. That's like, sorry, excuse me. You are in the UK, so probably going to offend quite a lot of people. Well, I mean, I wouldn't want to date you anyway no neither would I I just find it quite shocking I wonder if he gets any matches

I actually swiped right because I wanted to match with him and be like literally what are you what I wanted to ask some questions but obviously because I don't fit any of his criteria um I marginally have an independent spirit my hair is actually more golden than dark i'm british i'm too tall my legs are actually quite muscular i never wear heels i actually have a very warm exterior and i do not do ambiguous glances i do full-on smiles and belly laughs so i'm absolutely not his type so sadly we did not match ambiguous glances what does that mean i don't know is it like a coquettish thing oh oh my god she's such a misogynist oh i hate him yeah um so yeah i'm thinking don't do that and if you have a

bio like that please get in touch because i want to be like why and how is that working out for you and actually you know we've had a comment an email recently that said, oh, I always feel like I want to, you know, challenge what you guys say. So please do. Literally, you can email us, tweet us, Instagram us. We put all these contact modes at the end. So please don't sit there listening, thinking like, oh, but what about this? What about this? You forgot this.

Get in touch and tell us because we want to hear this stuff. Absolutely. So, yes, let's get into it. Love Island. absolutely um so yes let's get into it love island shall we start by doing a brief explainer of what love island is just in case anyone doesn't know what it is because i know we have some listeners around the world uh love island has just launched in australia though so they now have the joys love island is a reality tv series where a bunch of singletons, usually in their 20s, this series has started with five women and six men. They're all straight. They all get dumped in a villa,

a beautiful villa in Mallorca. And they are basically made to couple up at the start by picking someone they fancy. And it's actually quite a convoluted way in which they do this and then obviously at the moment we're recording on wednesday we do accept that things will have developed by the time this episode comes out on friday but hey ho um at the moment someone's single and then they recouple and then people get voted out and then new singles come in and it's very incestuous and all they can do all day is sort of hang out. And talk about each other and their relationships.

Yeah, and then they get made to do bizarre challenges and, you know, on paper, if you will, it's awful but it's actually very entertaining TV, if you ask me. Yeah, it's actually very entertaining tv if you ask me yeah it's very it's very cleverly produced because it's it's sort of like it's it's the best social experiment you could ever get yeah it's fascinating it's more fascinating than something like big brother because the idea is to mate essentially it's incredibly feral but it's fascinating because it gives you such an insight into the way that modern relationships work and the way that people navigate them and how meddling in other people's business can be so detrimental to those relationships.

And it's very funny. You know, they cast it very well in terms of the personalities. They get people who are very good on camera um who are very candid and very honest and all of them then go on to become celebrities in their own right but this is this is the fascinating thing is the scale of it 3.4 million people tuned into the first episode of this series on monday and it's all people are talking about at the moment and love island is on monday tuesday wednesday thursday friday and then it's like a saturday catch-up show i believe um saturday night is the one night it's not on it's like you're encouraged to actually go out and socialize and this is for eight weeks and so you know it's happening in real time and they they receive more

applications to go on love island than you know oxbridge receives i can totally understand why so i don't think it's a snobby i think it's quite snobby for people who go oh my god what is the state of the world coming to and like well why wouldn't you go apply for love island because i mean it looks like kind of a lot like a free holiday um i mean i actually don't think i would apply for various reasons but obviously i would never get on and also the idea is that if you are the winning couple voted for by the public you win 50,000 pounds and it's quite questionable to be you might think well what what are they voting on how do you win it's kind of like popularity contest when people it's whether the public buy your relationship and like you it's but it's it's not

necessarily down to liking an individual it's down to believing the credibility of a relationship so often on the app um viewers yeah would you vote yeah viewers are encouraged to vote for their favorite couple or the couple that they think are the best suited or sometimes the couple that is the worst suited will get voted out it's it's done on compatibility or the viewer's perception of compatibility, which is obviously subjective because this is a 24-hour period. Each episode reflects a 24-hour period edited down.

So clearly it's a very condensed version. Yeah, it's actually mental because with ad breaks, each episode is about 45 minutes and that's meant to reflect a whole day. It's constructed reality in the sense that we are shown a very small amount of what actually goes on in the house i mean christ what do they do all day i have no idea you know they're not allowed to bring books or anything so they can't they can't read no because you can't have

you can't be seen to promoting certain books and what i've noticed actually differently in this episode is that you actually in this in this series sorry is that you see them eating you've never really seen that before you would occasionally see them I remember I'm and I'm always really fascinated by this you see them eating I saw them eating porridge or remember when it was I think last year it was Camilla's birthday and Jamie made her like happy birthday in avocado toast and I was like literally so upset that no one did that for me on my birthday this year actually I wasn't really because I was having a great day and I had pancakes for breakfast and cake and I drank champagne all day so I wasn't really upset but um I would have

liked that just saying avocado on toast spelling out happy birthday you'd need quite a lot of toast and quite a lot of avocado but I'd be down with that I'm really pleased that we spent so much time dwelling on that can we actually focus on because because i think because you touched on it before the coupling up process at the beginning i think that's really interesting from it's just like a dating app well sort of but not quite i think it's well it is a bit like a dating app except that the men are given the ultimate power in the first instance but that's they they do it different each series because one series it's like the girls are all standing there the boys power in the first instance. But they do it different each series. Because one series, it's like the girls are all standing there,

the boys come in one at a time, and the girls step forward if they fancy them. And then this series... No, that's how it works. That's how it was this series. And the series before, it was the men are standing there and the women come in one at a time. So they do alternate that, actually. Okay, sure.

But essentially, it's just bizarre because these boys are coming in one at a time and the girls are meant to stand forward if they fancy them and then the boy picks who they want to couple up with. But the interesting thing about it is it's obviously done exclusively on looks at this point. Uh-huh. So it is sort of like a dating app in a sense. It is.

But without the bio. But, you know, I feel like we get bios, they get the sort of the guy coming in and being like, all right ladies you're looking beautiful today the classic that's a classic it's also very like um take me out just come down like the like lovely yeah that's what they all come down and say but the worst part is they're also all dressed in their bikinis and their swimming trunks i mean so ridiculous the girls come with like blow dries full face of makeup makeup, stilettos, and then like tiny

bikinis. I'm like, no one would ever be wearing that. Yeah. If you're in your swimwear, why would you ever be in stilettos and full face of makeup? I mean, I just. Yeah, it's a very strange format. And I think we'll get onto this later. But it just the it kind of presents it normalizes that kind of way of meeting someone.

You know what I mean? Like judging someone purely based on looks. It normalizes the format which we apply to dating apps. And clearly what we've seen in the first couple of episodes is that does not work. I mean, look at Hayley and Eyal. Eyal, yeah. God, that's the funniest pairing in the world. These two just cannot have a conversation.

They're both models and they're stunning, both of them. But they can't have a conversation. And I don't mean they're both stupid. I just mean they clearly have no compatibility. No, there's a total mismatch there. He was explaining to her how he's quite a deep guy. And she was like, so what are you looking for? And he was like, well, I'm not really looking for someone that's a bit too vapid. I don't really like people who are superficial. And she was like, what are you looking for and he's like well I'm not really looking for someone that's a bit too vapid I don't really like people who are superficial and she was like what does

superficial mean totally in earnest she genuinely had no idea um so that was quite funny but that's why this show is so good it's just fascinating it's full of hilarious soundbites like that and and you see the way that these relationships develop and change. And, you know, some of them, I think it's very rare that the couples who initially are attracted to each other in the coupling obsession, you know, it's just based on looks. It's very rare that those couples actually stay together. Yeah. Because there are constantly like recoupling ceremonies throughout the series. So incestuous.

Yeah. So people are often encouraged to change who they're with. And it's really funny. I was watching it with my friends the other day and they were like, God, it's such a game, isn't it? That's what he all said. Yeah, he did. He did.

And then he got really slammed for saying that. But then I thought, it's a game in real life. It is a game. It's a game in real life. Just because you're not on a show and you're not being manipulated by a group of producers and it's being aired to 3.4 million people, it doesn't mean that you're not still affected

by those same nuances and by those same communications. Oh, 100%. Power plays. Yeah. Everything. Completely. That's why it's so interesting. I absolutely love it. so do i i mean there

are issues with it and we're going to sort of get into these now um so the the first issue and is the thing that i've been harping on about to anyone who will listen is the lack of body diversity um in love island and so basically there's five girls on it they are all skinny no no two ways about it their waists are generally the size of my hand and um i do not believe there's anything wrong with being slim if you're healthy but i have a real issue with the fact that they are just portraying one body type and i think this is really reinforcing this idea which we've it's so ingrained in society that says you need to be thin to be considered attractive and to be worthy of love and I think it's incredibly damaging and incredibly dangerous yeah I completely agree and these girls these

girls aren't just slim they're very they're tiny tiny and you know like we said often when you meet people in real life who you've seen on tv they're actually smaller than tiny tiny and you know like we said often when you meet people in real life who you've seen on tv they're actually smaller than they are they appear to be so these girls look so small imagine how much smaller they are in real life and you know i think the average love island viewer is between the age of 16 and 34 already quite impressionable the main demographic is teenage girls the main well exactly so incredibly impressionable the main demographic is teenage girls the main well exactly so incredibly

impressionable audiences 100% who are seeing these beautiful slim women and thinking oh god if I don't look like that

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she wasn't attractive enough compared to the other girls there and we've seen this this week already so nile was talking about how he felt inadequate compared to Adam with his abs. Alex, the doctor, who I actually love, said he felt like a leper because he didn't feel like anyone was attracted to him there. And actually, I read an interview with last year's contestant, Simon, who wasn't on it for very long, so you might not remember him. But he revealed that the guys in the villa would not eat carbs all day and work out loads to try and get that ripped look because like there's pressure on men

just as much as women i do think that this year so far there's just a slight bit more diversity in the male bodies on the scale of super ripped to just quite fit um but it's it's still it's still like very much actually caroline flack said as well in an interview last year that she agrees that the show creates unrealistic body images oh did she yeah she said that this is the host um and as well when they revealed last night there was two new women coming into the show and I was like, sweet, let's see someone who's like at least a size 10. No, they both look really skinny.

And I'm not, I'm not, don't want to like thin shame. There's nothing wrong with that. No, it's not about that. But I just think it's such a shame. This is such a public show. Like you said, it's viewed nationwide by so many young, impressionable people. It's such a good opportunity to promote

body diversity and to promote body positivity and to use that platform for good because we're already saturated with this homogenized body type of super slim and toned and muscly in men and women that's what we see everywhere right exactly and it won't change until someone starts changing it it's so frustrating because i mean mean, this isn't related, but it's the same frustrations I have about the fashion industry. You have these brands constantly talking about female empowerment and championing female autonomy, and yet season after season they send the same slim girl down the runway.

And not just slim, you know, models often in real life, they're very, tall and and incredibly slim they look like unwell beings a lot of time even if they are they just they just don't look normal and they don't look healthy and it's just such a shame that this show hasn't seemed to tune into that i just think people need to see people that look like them because the fact of the matter is... Yeah, particularly on a reality show. Yeah, exactly.

These are meant to be real people. They're not film stars or models. And people are attracted to all different body types. Some, as we've just touched on before, we had that episode with Megan Crabb, Buddy Pussy Panda. People are attracted to all different body types. It's not like if they put someone larger in in the island that they wouldn't couple up with anyone but i don't think putting

one token larger guy or larger girl in there is the answer it just needs to be all diverse all range of body shapes and sizes it was so disheartening and so saddening to go on twitter especially in the first episode when everyone was being introduced and the sheer number of women saying oh my god i feel like such a fat potato oh my god i'm never eating again uh i saw so many men going oh my god i need to do press-ups in the ad break so i look like them it's affecting everyone and why is it that it shouldn't be the norm to hate your body and feel insecure and i actually read a stat recently that said um two thirds of teenage girls think they need to lose weight and 61% of teenage girls have low self-esteem

and it's just terrible and also think about the timing of the show like it's it's the beginning of summer so already those anxieties about being beach body ready is that awful advert promoted those anxieties are already looming. So this show is only going to exacerbate those. And there was, you know, this time last year when the series aired, there was that study that showed that steroid sales had increased fourfold. And that was something that a lot of researchers blamed on reality shows like Love Island and like I'm a Celebr get me out of here where you

see these kind of super toned physiques all the time and you just you just in your mind that becomes the norm and if you're not reflecting of that then you feel like you're not acceptable exactly there's just too much pressure based on appearances and you know it's already the case that i know most women feel like ah about putting a bikini on it and it's because we're just shown bodies that you know are unattainable but are lauded and put on a pedestal that this is what you have to look like to wear a bikini but you just don't yeah and people and people will make the argument that oh well it's escapism and you know you wouldn't want to see obese people on a tv show with hairy bellies and that's what philip schofield said to me exactly but that is just so ignorant because that's clearly not what we're

saying no not at all it's just about normalizing the body the body types that we see on screen and like you said making them reflect something that is actually more honest of what society looks like. Yeah. And it's because, you know, sometimes if you fancy someone and they sort of reject you or they don't fancy you back, it makes you go in the back of your mind like, oh, would they like me if I was thinner? Yeah.

Would I be better? Would I be more worthy of love if I was thinner? Should I stop eating? Yeah. And we should say that Love Island isn't solely responsible for promoting these ideologies like obviously those kind of things have been ruminating for years exactly it's just that Love Island is reinforcing them and it would just be so fabulous and I feel like nothing will change unless something starts to change it'd be so brilliant if they did make a conscious effort i feel like it's 2018 can we see please see a bit more body diversity yeah and equally you know not just body diversity but also also just sexual diversity like it's the most heteronormative sexuality yeah sexuality it's they argue that it like it would make things to the producers i think

have like said that they think it just makes it too over complicated or it wouldn't work with regards to coupling up it wouldn't work with the format of the show because the show the show is formatted to endorse heteronormative ideas but when you look at a show like genderquake for example did you ever watch that i actually didn't so it was a show on channel four and they had people who identified as all sorts of genders and with all sorts of sexual orientations they put them all together in a house and just allowed them to kind of engage with one another like a reality show and some of them ended up attracted to one another it wasn't the intention of the show but that's just what happened because I suppose it's only normal if you're spending 24-7 with a group of people

that that would happen so I just don't buy the argument that that's not something that people are interested in watching and not something that I just think you know look at today's society we are a progressive society we are transgressive we are more accepting of a wider range of sexualities and genders than ever before why would you want to regress to something in that culture yeah I think it definitely there are definitely things they can do to bring this into yeah it's also not the most diverse show in terms of racial diversity either no completely the majority of the contestants are white yeah exactly I mean, these are things I think, I think it's just important to, when you watch it,

try and take it all with a pinch of salt, remember these things. But the trouble is that, you know, perhaps some people don't, and especially younger people. I'm not saying younger people, you know, are the only ones who are, you know, impressionable. But these things do affect you, especially when you're a teenager there's so much pressure they do and i just think now given given the amount of people that are engaging with love island like i said before it is a

brilliant opportunity to be subversive and to actually do something a bit different and veer away from the norm yeah totally and another issue we wanted to talk about was the the issues it's raised around consent now we're literally two episodes in but i think last night in particular there were a couple of moments where everyone was a bit like oh christ not sure about that one of which was when adam the personal trainer was on a date with Kendall. What does Kendall do? I don't know.

She works as a shoe shop manager in Kirt Viber. Oh, yes, yes. I think she gets a 33% discount. Yeah, pretty good, that. And they were on a date, and he sort of brought up spooning later. And she was like, oh, it's the first date. I'm not going to spoon you because they have to sleep in the bed with the person they're coupled up with can I make a confession I only learned what spooning was last year what some people might not know what it is um I know well it's not

something that everyone says yes it is is it yeah I only learned what the word was because of Geordie Shore um I've never watched Geordie Shore and I like, a spooning is fully a part of my lexicon. Okay. Okay, do you want to explain just in case anyone doesn't? I don't want to see. I'm worried I'm going to get it wrong.

It's quite simple. Well, it's just lying next to someone in bed and cuddling and then letting them cuddle you sort of like a spoon. Yeah, it's like, so you're both facing the same direction so your bodies lock together

like your spoons would lie in the cutlery drawer. Yes, that's a much better explanation. Rachel's much better at the lexicon of the modern millennial than I am. It's my fault. What was it you asked me about the other day? Lassies? Lassie? Oh, you didn't know what a mango lassie was? No. Is that a millennial thing or is that just a... No, that's just like people who know how to like delicious food things.

Apparently it's meant to be pronounced lassie. Okay. It's like an Indian beverage. It's delicious. Totally delish. This is very much on a side note. Sorry. Back to consent.

Oh, yes. Spooning. So he was like, oh, yeah, spoon later. And she was like, no, I don't want to spoon you yet. It's a bit forward. And then what did he say?

He said, oh, will you give me a kiss now so we don't have to spoon later? He kind of used it as leverage. Like a trade-off. Yeah, to be like, okay, kiss now so we don't have to spoon later he kind of used it as like some weird trade-off yeah to be like okay well if you're not gonna spoon me let's kiss now then yeah and then as if he deserved some form yeah like physical affection from her outrageous and so then he then kissed her and she did not look like she wanted it she was a bit like yeah and like so they had a kiss but it was it was she

was with you i think it's probably a situation that a lot of girls will resonate with yeah totally particularly if you're on a first date and you know he's chosen her she might feel intrinsically like she owes him something yeah and especially if she feels like she's just sort of said no to the spooning. But since when is that? That's not a thing. Since when is spooning and kissing become like a currency? If anything, kissing is like kind of more forward than spooning. Depends if you're spooning naked.

Yeah, that's true. Oh, yeah. I don't think they would have spooned naked. No, it would have been a bit. Yeah. But yeah, I mean, that was just like... She felt probably that it would have been too awkward or she would have offended him if she was a bit like,

uh, no. And I'm not saying you have to, you know, ask someone for their consent to kiss them. No, of course not. It's about picking up the vibe. Yeah, and reading verbal and non-verbal cues that's very much what it's about um and i think i mean the the most problematic consent issue for me in the episode last night was came about in the kissing challenge so oh yeah explain yeah so the girls and the boys were on different teams.

So it was girls versus boys. And they were basically given a series of facts to read out. So the girls were given facts about the boys and they had to read them out and then guess which boy it was about and vice versa with the boys to the girls. And you kissed the person you thought it was. And you kissed the person you thought it was about. So obviously the person receiving the kiss is sort of given no choice in the matter. It's like you just have to accept that I'm going to kiss you now. And for the most part, that was fine.

Everyone happily kissed whoever they were approached by. It was quite snoggerific. It was snoggerific. God, we haven't said that in a while. One of my fave words. But there was one moment when Hayley was going to be kissed by Alex. Yeah.

And she pulled away. And everyone was like, oh God, that was a bit harsh. That was a bit mean. But it's a very weird game in the sense that it is sort of non-consensual by its nature we should we should point out that you know as philip mentioned on the show when i was on this morning when you're

on this morning i don't know if you knew that rachel went on this morning this morning um but basically they all sign contracts to ensure that they're happy with how everything's going and they're happy that you know who they're coupled up with it's all consensual and whatever so legally you know they're all covered but just the nature of this game just felt a bit tricky yeah yeah I'm so in various minds about this actually because um part of me was just like oh how embarrassing for Alex um but I would I would I was wasn't agreeing with all the people who were saying oh my god that was so mean why did she do that the strange thing is that she then did kiss him she like pulled away but then they went back in and kissed yeah but which is also really awful because clearly she

didn't want to kiss him yeah and then she felt compelled to because of the show and she also said oh maybe it was because he has a professional job this is alex who's the doctor and that was like a weird reason that's why she kissed you no that was why she said she like wasn't attracted to him or something which was because she had a i mean not to be mean but this is the girl who didn't know what superficial meant yeah um i mean she's not the most eloquent that he is a doctor is a turn off and i'm like questionable yeah um i find that quite attractive um but yeah it was it was and i also feel like if she was going to was it the fact that it was him or was she just uncomfortable with kissing anyone like should she have kind of said at the beginning like oh can everyone just like give me a peck on

the cheek or something instead if she had issues with any of them kissing her i wonder if someone had said that though like i wonder maybe if it's in their contracts if they can't you just have to do it you just have to do it you can't make a fuss like that because that would be really strange if if all of the men were kissing the women on the lips but then with hayley they had to kiss her on the cheek that's not something that would go down well. So I wonder if someone protested in that instance, they would do a different game. Arguably, they all know what they're getting themselves into. They know what the show entails.

When they go on the show, yeah. However, I don't think any of them should be made to do anything they don't want to do because this is kind of like, it's almost like equating it to, it's not exactly the same thing, but it's like if you were to go back to a guy's house thinking, oh, I want to have sex sex with them you're allowed to change your mind

yeah of course of course i mean that's why consent apps don't work yeah exactly um not one of the many reasons why consent apps don't work we know many of the reasons they are very problematic yeah so that was a whole murky issue wasn't it it's i think it i mean i love the show because it sparks up all of these interesting conversations about how these things work like I remember last year there was the fascinating conversation between Johnny and Camilla about paying the bill on a date and this was wow yes yeah this was this was nuts so Johnny had said to Camilla that he would feel really offended if she asked to split the bill with him.

Apparently he was secretly like a bajillionaire as well. Yeah, I think he was. And if Camilla had said, oh no, I don't want you to pay, that would have really offended Johnny. And then Johnny's response to Camilla saying that was, oh, you're a feminist, aren't you? As if it was a negative slander. Yeah. So that was oh you're a feminist aren't you as if it was a negative slander yeah

um so that was just really fascinating um and sparked loads of like think pieces about modern feminism in a dating context and whether we should split the bill on a first date and all that um so that was really interesting and I'm sure we've got many more of those things to come in this season yeah and actually in exciting news we've got we won't reveal who yet we've got many more of those things to come in this season. Yeah, and actually, in exciting news, we won't reveal who yet. We've got a couple of exciting Love Island-related guests in the line-up in the coming weeks. Yes, we do. So do stay tuned for those.

Shall we move on to a dating dilemma? Yes. Right. Thank you so much for sending this in. I think Olivia is going to read it out. So, my best friend genuinely my friend not me needs some advice regarding her brother deciding that he wants to get together with her other best friend my friend let's call her lucy works with her

brother let's call him sam and her close friend let's call her becky at lucy's dad's family business so they're all very close. Not only do Lucy and Becky work together, but they also socialise a lot outside of work. Becky often stays at Lucy's house overnight, for example. Now Sam will not leave Lucy and Becky to do things together without butting in. Also, how will this relationship work? Should they create a timetable of who spends time with Becky on which day?

Lucy feels uncomfortable about this, but Sam is not understanding and storms off whenever it's mentioned how should she navigate this tricky situation I say that there are thousands of girls to choose from so why does Sam have to pick one of his sister's closest friends to date so essentially to sum up this is Sam and Lucy are brother and sister Lucy has a friend called Becky and now Becky is dating Sam Becky with the good hair well she may very well have good hair I mean that is quite the conundrum to be honest but also very common one of my best friends is in a very serious relationship with a guy who was her brother's best friend I almost feel like what's the point

in having an older brother if you're not going to date their friends that's that I have an older brother and I think he sort of tries to keep all his friends at arm's distance from me of course you have an older brother have you ever dated any of his friends no and actually I remember when we were like at an 18th slash 21st party years ago and some of his friends I think I'd you know sort of come of age and some of his friends were like oh my god yeah your sister looks really great and he was like oh really angry um which is quite funny i have however had a thing with a friend's brother yeah me too i think that's quite common yeah maybe um or a friend's brother's friends no but this was in my case i got the permission of my friend first.

Did you? No. I don't play by the rules, Rachel. No, I know. You have a complete disregard for the rules. I find it very stressful. I know. Rachel doesn't like it because she was head girl.

Yeah. And then when the loos are out of order, Olivia's like, we can still go in. I'm like, they're out of order. It just means that there's someone in there cleaning. But if you just say very politely I'm so sorry would you mind if I come in they're like yes of course one rule for you one rule for everyone else precisely let's get back to the point please okay so this is quite a dilemma because Becky was friends with Lucy before she started dating Sam so understandably Lucy's nose is going to feel a bit pushed out of joint and they they can't hang out

as a trio all the time no I think that's where it gets difficult because I think fundamentally the idea of your friend dating your brother is actually pretty normal and shouldn't be something that you should really have a problem with friends didn't it yeah they already hung out as a group they so bit different they did um I don't think it's. They already hung out as a group though, so a bit different. They did. I don't think it's something to get upset about. I think it's just a weird scenario in terms of how you all spend time together. Because like you said, you don't want to feel forced to always hang out as a three. Obviously the couple are going to want to spend time on their own without,

but you need to be careful how you navigate it so you're not always excluding the other sibling. I think it probably is different if the other sibling is single. They might feel more excluded than they would if they were in a serious relationship of their own, in which case they could then hang out as a four. I think Becky needs to make sure she makes time for Lucy, just the two of them. Yeah, that's also important.

Don't neglect the friend. Have you seen, you haven't seen the film Edge of Seventeen, have you? No. Because that's sort of exactly what this is about. It's a film with Hayley Steinfeld. Hayley Steinfeld? And she feels incredible anger towards her best friend

when she hooks up with her older brother but i think that is because she already has a very fraught relationship with her brother they're very different it's kind of the classic trope of the brother being the super popular one at school whereas she's like the ugly duck thing relatable jokes actually my brother was way cooler than me at school and so it's sort of like he's had everything his whole life, I've had nothing, and now he's even taken my best friend. Yeah, sure. And also in that family setting,

I'm pretty sure that the father died when they were quite young. A lot of things going on there. So there's a lot of things going on, but I think ultimately your best friend, being with your brother or sister is something that is feasible. You just need to handle it in the right way. I think it's important to have a discussion beforehand with your sibling to explain that this is something that is on the cards. I think the fact that our listener has

said there are thousands of girls to choose from why does Sam have to pick one of Lucy's closest friends I actually think personally I would argue that it's very difficult to find someone you click with

yeah and you can't choose who you're attracted to and if those two really get on and want to carry on dating and seeing each other, then, I mean, that's amazing.

It's so hard to find someone who you like and likes you back. God damn it, is it hard. God. We wouldn't have a podcast

if it was easy. No, just be like, Libby and I sitting here and I'd be like, we're in really happy relationships. There's nothing to say. Life is great and that's it bye bye um life is great still sorry yes you're right life is great um so and i think you have to try and actually think of it in a positive way like that's kind of awesome because if you think about and i i'm this is not me but actually a lot

of my actual friends hate their brother's girlfriends oh really yeah a lot of my friends that's interesting and that makes things awkward yeah so awkward surely it's so much better if you know your brother marries one of your best friends that's amazing you know you're gonna be like important in that wedding yeah and in friends that's what that's what um ross says doesn't he my best friend! My sister! And at the moment, in the first instant, he's like angry, really angry. And then he's suddenly like, oh, my best friend and my sister.

Exactly. The thing is, obviously then, trouble is, if Sam and Becky break up, and then that ruins, if then Becky then feels awkward coming to the house to see Lucy, that would be super sad oh god this just sounds like a soap opera now it does actually i get i think you'd have to be super mature about it yeah i know you would you were really hard but i think you have to um respect

the friendship respect the relationship make time for both you don't have to make like a schedule but um yeah i think you have to treat them both individually be mature about it all and try and think of it in a positive way yes i agree and let us know how it gets on please and if you have any similar experiences yeah so any other words of advice or we would love to hear them sadly we, we are out of time for today. We have to go and watch Love Island. Jokes, it's not actually that time yet, but I'm already excited every day.

I'm actually stressed out that I've got sort of evening plans for the next few nights and I'm like, no! What am I going to do? I need to cancel all plans. However, thank you so much for listening. If you enjoyed this episode of millennial love please subscribe please give us a rating on apple podcast or wherever you get your podcast or review we would love a review because that means you know we might get to continue doing the podcast forever yes please tell us if you love us or hate us but really only if you love us

and if you have a dating dilemma or disaster, please send those to us as well. You can email them to us anonymously at millennial.love at independent.co.uk or you can tweet us at OliviaPetta1 and Rachel underscore Hosey or you can DM us at millennial underscore love. On Instagram. On Instagram, sorry. DM in my head is always on Instagram

because it's sliding to your DMs. Yeah, but that happens on Twitter too. Yeah, but it's just not the same as DM. I don't know why. It literally is. Okay. Or you can slide into our DMs on Instagram. She's trying so hard to be down with the kids.

Lassie. At Millennial underscore love or Rachel underscore hazy or Olivia Petter 8. Or our Facebook group. Yes, our Facebook group. Facebook. our facebook group yes our facebook group facebook.com slash group slash millennial dot love thank you so much for listening everyone please keep getting in touch we love hearing your thoughts your reviews your views on love island tell me everything

and spooning spooning if you don't know what spooning is or you didn't know until this episode please tell us yeah i mean yeah i want to know if anyone else did not know. Spooning, forking, who knows? I think those are different things. Okay. Let's not go into forking. Have a lovely week, everyone. Bye-bye.

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