Love Lives - #39 Is casual sex a recipe for disaster?

Episode Date: June 22, 2018

The disposable culture of dating apps has made the idea of no-strings casual sex seem more prevalent and popular than ever before. But is it ever wise to be intimate with someone who you have no plans of developing a long-term relationship with? Is it even possible? What happens if one person “catches feels”?This week on Millennial Love we’re joined by writer, comedian and social media influencer Bella Younger to discuss the murky matter that is casual sex and all its tricky nuances.We also delve into how it’s portrayed on Love Island, the ITV2 reality TV series that is at the vanguard of all conversations surrounding casual sex and dating right now.You can follow Bella on @deliciouslystella.Follow us on Instagram to stay up-to-date! https://www.instagram.com/millennial_love/Support this show http://supporter.acast.com/millenniallove. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Twas the season of chaos and all through the house, not one person was stressing. Holla differently this year with DoorDash. Don't want to holla do the most? Holla don't. More festive, less frantic. Get deals for every occasion with DoorDash. Hello and welcome to Millennial Love, the Independent Lifestyle Desk's weekly podcast on love, dating and relationships, hosted by me, Olivia Petter, Lifestyle Writer, and me, Rachel Hosey, Assistant Lifestyle Editor. Dating today is a world away from what it was even just 10 years ago. With dating apps, millennials are finding it harder to meet people than ever before.

And even when we do, who's to say we won't be ghosted or zombied or breadcrumbed or all the wonderful other kind of things that we do to each other. So that's why we decided to launch Millennial Love as two long-time singletons in their 20s, talking candidly about

all the things everyone is doing but not always willing to admit. Can I just point out with that intro that we say two long-time singletons? I'm not sure how comfortable I feel saying that all the time. It's true, though. I was going to say, guys, don't do yourselves down guys also if you're wondering who that voice was i was about

to introduce our guest for this week we are delighted to welcome comedian writer and social media influencer bella younger who you may know from her social media account her instagram account sorry deliciously stellar which poked fun at all the clean eating influences out there and is rather brilliant. So thank you for joining us, Bella. Thank you so much for having me. So are you a long-time singleton too? I guess so, yeah, I would say so.

Welcome to the Hockey Club. I don't have any shame about it. No, it's just saying it every week, two long-time singletons. Very Miss Havisham. If you say it like that, it's just it's just saying it every week two long-time singletons very miss havisham if you say it like that it sounds like it but if you go two long-time singletons then it's like you can say it like that next week all right i'll do that next week anyway um would you like to sort of tell the listeners who might not know you a little bit about who you are i feel like you summed it up pretty well but but yes, I started an Instagram account

in reaction to the clean eating movement about three years ago. Amazing. Yep. And it was called Deliciously Stella and I recently sort of moved it on and I'm now Instagramming as myself and feel very unnatural about that.

But yeah, it's great. Why, is this why you decided to call it digitally stellar rather than i can't say this deliciously bella um the name deliciously bella was actually taken no yes by an australian blogger who just takes pictures of cake and has only posted about 12 times oh no how disappointing but i've heard that you can reclaim that name if you can sort of prove more of a right to it than they do because people they don't like inactive accounts on instagram and so you know it's too late now

though because deliciously stellar is too unknown you you know she's a brand babe yeah personal brand you can't go back personal brands no but then it's also you know i suppose your personal identity is a bit separate but now it's you yeah exactly now i am now i am her i am quite similar to her in many many ways it's like having an alter ego like sasha fierce i think everyone has an alter ego i have one well yours has a good name as well scarlet merriweather she lost this name what does she do she's a stripper all right excellent that just came to me that's probably the most inappropriate thing to say i'm really sorry that's not that's sorry mom she's not a stripper there are worse things you're fine shall we do our dating debrief yes a little bit of catch-up time yes so i just got back from

france and when i was there i was reading this book called promising young women by an irish writer called caroline o'donhue. And it was brilliant, particularly from a dating perspective. Love it. So it's about a young woman, she's 26, and she starts an affair with her married boss. Sounds like quite a classic narrative that you've heard time and time again.

But it's set in the modern era with Twitter and Facebook and all this stuff. And it's just really well written. And it's a really interesting look at the kind of fragility of like the disillusioned 20-something and how this relationship really breaks her down and how this man manipulates her

very subtly and very cleverly in the way that we've probably all been manipulated before. Sounds relatable. Very relatable. Not that I've had an affair manipulated sounds before very relatable and it's very funny with my boss by the way um but it's just like the power dynamics are really interesting and it's sort of amplified because i think those power dynamics are always in play in relationships to to a certain degree but because this man is obviously her boss that's very obvious yes um

so it's really interesting highly highly recommend it and i know caroline also is a listener to the podcast yay thank you caroline yeah well now livy is going to lend me the book because i'm actually going to portugal in a couple of days and so i will be reading it then why is everyone on holidays all of the time actually not me we're just avoiding work as much as we can to be honest um swanning around looking for foreign men no we're not really i mean it's all part of our personal brand really research really yeah um i have actually been doing some work i wrote an article about this it's not i wouldn't call it a new dating trend because i sort of roll my eyes at all these articles going this is the new dating trend but someone has come up with

a name for i guess is something we've all experienced um with regards to dating in the summer and it's called freckling and i would describe this as sort of it's a move on from the idea of a summer fling or summer romance and the name is called freckling because it's like your summer freckles they come out when the sun's out and then they go back into your face um during autumn um what it basically means is like if someone freckles you you have your casual fun with them over the summer um but they will disappear for winter but they don't fully disappear because they might still hang around on social media. And then only to resurface come next June.

Classic. Yeah. I mean, I don't know about you, but I've got some freckles. Oh, wow. So they like don't like you enough to make you their like winter girlfriend because that's when everyone likes to be coupled up. Exactly. But they will come back in the summer. Absolutely.

Oh, wow. But I feel like summer everyone gets a bit like yeah summer yeah everyone's risky you're wearing less clothes exactly well this actually sort of is going to lead quite nicely into our main discussion of today which is all about casual sex but before we get into that juicy discussion we are going to give you a bio of the week and this is one i found from a man called george and his bio reads most guys will ask you boring questions like how are you not me i'll ask interesting stuff like what was your first pet's name and what are the second and last letters of

your mother's maiden name which really made me laugh i... You laughed the first time I told you. I did. The second time it wasn't as funny. It's a low bar at this point. No, but I mean, I have a tendency to explain jokes. Should I explain it or do you think everyone gets it? I think most people get it. I think, yeah.

Okay. It's like when Rachel once tried to explain sex on the podcast. Well, one would hope that when you're listening to a Millennial Love podcast, it's not so you can find out how to do sex. Like, hopefully it's because you've done sex. Yeah. And, yeah, you just. Yeah. Well, if you're not sure, listen back to that episode.

And I can't remember which one it was. Rachel was head girl. She likes to explain things to people. I just like everything to be clear. I was the only person in my year, who wasn't a prefect in spite of me having a sister two years younger than me which meant i must have been voted in but all the teachers must have been like no this can't happen it can't be they're younger of all the people do you know what i feel like maybe there was a conspiracy oh absolutely yeah they probably were all threatened by you and thought, do you know what?

We can't have her getting more successful. I know. Well, you showed them. I did, didn't I? You showed them. All my leadership skills I've displayed on my sad Instagram. Well, with many followers.

That is true. I bet you have more followers than any of those pre-facts. That's probably true, actually. And that's all that matters in this day and age. It really is. Instagram followers. Honestly honestly that's the measure of success i'm joking that's not really the measure of success even though you have done fantastically well okay casual sex what is it please right so yeah expert on casual sex no the urban dictionary definition uh casual sex is defined by having sexual contact with another person

with no plans on furthering a long-term committed relationship with that person. Brilliant. That's a very vague umbrella description. And I would like to point out that I think when you say casual sex, a lot of people think one-night stands. Not necessarily one-night stands because it can be prolonged casual sex. It be with someone you know it can be with someone you've it's very sort of millennial as well very 2018 and 2017 really to you know have sex with someone and then maybe see them again three months later and you hook up again and then the next time you see them maybe

just snog and it's all this this very, and you don't really know what's happening. And it happens a lot. It happens a lot. And my first question, I suppose, is how does that casual sexual relationship come about? Because I think a lot of the time, it's implicit. It's never explicitly stated. How rare is it that you sit down with someone

after having sex with them and say, okay, let's just keep this casual. I'll probably message you when I feel like it and you'll be okay with that no one really says that it's sort of just implied that this isn't going to be a serious thing do you think it would also be quite concerning if after having sex with someone once well you just met you were like by the way you're my boyfriend now well exactly exactly i'm not sure that goes down that well either no so it's it's a weird one but it's just so so murky because some some people will sort of go on a couple of dates with someone before they sleep together but then for them that's still in their head this is not progressing

into anything serious all I'm after is a casual thing. And, you know, no one really has those discussions before you sleep with someone. I think sometimes it comes about because, I mean, I'm not saying this is a good thing, but sometimes you're just drunken in the same place. Or maybe it's, you know, someone you know that, and you've always had this flirty relationship with, one night you're both just in the the mood or you're a bit drunk

or whatever it might be and then it happens and then and then you're sort of in this huh what is this now is that a one-time thing is this gonna happen again sometimes it does sometimes it doesn't i feel like it's there's no obvious way casual sex can come about because by nature it is casual and it's not clear and it's very confusing yeah i think it's yeah notoriously confusing the whole thing i think yeah i think do you think though that there should be more boundaries. I don't know. Do you think when it comes, we should all sort of, I mean, you can't, can you? You can't be like about to get intimate with someone

and be like, so what is this to you? You just can't, can you? My main question is, because at what point does a casual sex relationship become a serious sexual relationship? Do you know what I mean? Like surely every relationship starts off sort of as a casual relationship doesn't it yeah yeah yeah i think the difference is is

usually if you're actually i mean it doesn't even matter if you sleep with someone on the first day but usually if it is kind of like we're going on dates and so we're going for drinks or we're going maybe then you know you might go for dinner and then you might go for brunch and then you might go for a walk in the park and if you're doing this kind of like coupley datey stuff and having sex i would suggest that is a relationship progressing whereas if it is sort of like that message at midnight, you up, then that's someone who just wants something casual. Yes, no, maybe so? Yeah, I think, yeah, it's tricky.

Because like you said, we don't really have those conversations with people. So I think you have to pick up on like the nonverbal and and sort of distinguish between the time that you spend together and the time you spend apart so if you're together it's very easy to sort of behave like you're in a serious relationship regardless of whether the situation is casual or not just because you're together but then when you're not with each other if there's minimal contact and neither one of you is really making an effort to talk to one another it's just about making plans to see them in like the next few months or yeah for sure however long i think that's a casual thing isn't it i have heard so many tales from girlfriends who have maybe on a

date maybe it was a random thing of a guy they slept but they go back to his house or maybe they go to her house it's irrelevant actually i don't really know why i said, but they go back to his house, or maybe they go to her house. It's irrelevant, actually. I don't really know why I said that. But they have a grown-up sleepover, you know? And then the next day, the guy's super cute and makes them, like, breakfast in bed. And, you know, like, walks them to the tube station and does all this really cute stuff. And is really, like, cute and cuddly and, like, acts all boyfriend-y. And then he, like, never messages them ever again. And they're like what if he surely if he

just wanted that to be like a one-time thing why would he act all boy friendly and coupley with me why maybe he really enjoys making breakfast he sounds great like maybe he's like one day i really hope to open my own brunch restaurant this is amazing practice i'm gonna see how she enjoys this but you know obviously i never want to sleep with her again the only explanation really actually i think so i just i don't know one of my friends suggested that maybe it's men's way and maybe women do this too i don't know but from what i hear it's men um maybe it's their way of making themselves feel better and on their moral conscious being oh, but I treated her really nicely,

so it's okay that I'm now just never going to text her ever again. You can see from my face, if you can see my face, that I am not impressed with this attitude. Why do you think we are more, I feel like our generation is more predisposed to having casual sexual relationships

rather than more serious ones. It's because it's so easy to meet people now. well it is and it isn't it's very easy to meet someone for something casual yeah i think it's very hard to meet someone and get into a relationship i think that's also a byproduct of it being so easy to meet people i think people are much more disposable nowadays yes you're always like oh but there was that person who i like matched with who actually might be better than you and yeah yeah and you know people are just never satisfied and it's much more difficult i think to be sure case in point i mean here this is kind of next level but adam on love island is literally this he's like he's like oh i really like this girl a new girl turns in oh but she

might be better and that's classic millennial to to be honest. He's an oily python snake. I mean, yes. And should be removed from the villa. Slippery, snaky as anything. Also, can't believe he's only 22. He looks about 45. It's a lie. I feel like all of them look quite, like, almost wizened.

Like, they're all so attractive and young, but there's something so, it's in their eyes, I think. I feel like there's been a lot of sunbeds going on. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I think that, that is ageing. It is very ageing. Put your sun cream on, people. Yeah, it's also probably just the look of desperation. They've got boohoo discount codes in their eyes.

Absolutely. Well, that's kind of interesting, actually, talking about Love Island, is because a lot of people will say like, oh, it's glamorizing and promoting casual sex. Like it's a really bad thing. But why? Why is it a bad thing if sex is consensual? I don't think it is always a bad thing.

I think as long as both of you are aware that this is just a casual thing and I think problems arise when one of you thinks it means more than it does which is quite likely um but if you're both on the same page then i think it's absolutely fine i think it gives you the freedom to explore your sexuality free from like the constraints of a relationship perhaps and it gives you a more progressive approach to sex i think it's more liberating it can be just quite fun like if you're sure if you're not in the right headspace for a relationship who's to say you can't have casual sex what's wrong with it get your kicks get your kicks it's a really old person thing to say yeah get your kicks. Get your kicks. Is that a really old person thing to say? Yeah, get your kicks.

You know, you get what you need. You get it. Do you think it's a good thing, bad thing? I think it's definitely a good thing. I think that anyone who said that it wasn't, I'd be slightly worried about them, especially people around our age. Yeah, for sure.

Yeah, I think if you speak to lots of people. This episode is brought to you by Google Pixel. I'm Jessie Crookshank. I host the number one comedy podcast Yeah, I think if he's speechless. Gemini can help you summarize your unread emails, suggest what to make with the food in your fridge, and it helped me achieve a family photo where everyone is smiling at the camera. I didn't think it was possible, but it is with Google Pixel 9. Learn more at store.google.com. Whether you're in your running era, Pilates era, or yoga era, dive into Peloton workouts that work with you. From meditating at your kid's game to mastering a strength program, they've got everything you need to keep knocking down your goals. No pressure to be who you're not.

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You know, watch yourself. No, 100%. But, yeah, now, I'd be genuinely horrified if anyone who I knew judged anyone else for having casual sex. People are a lot more judgy of women, though. Yeah, that is true. So much more judgy. I feel like with men, everyone's like, hey, what a lad, what a player. He's sleeping with all these girls.

Whereas a lot of people will look at women and be like, what a slut. She's sleeping around, so dirty. And I'm like, absolutely not. That's changing slowly, but it is slowly. I'm very lucky I'm in a friendship group where we sort of try and outdo each other by behaving more and more badly.

Fantastic. And it's always just like, the worst thing that you do is so celebrated because we'll do anything for the story. Oh, yes. Nobody has ever, ever felt judged. And I think that's so nice. But I guess it's different for different people.

And I did feel really bad, again, bringing up Love Island. I felt so bad watching Rosie apologize for, I know, in inverted commasas doing stuff with yeah stuff stuff always with the stuff um no completely completely completely I think you know there can be so many pros like you say to having casual sex and there should be no shame attached to it if it's what you want to do no i don't think i should ever be shamed attached to it but going back to love island to adam and rosie that situation i

think is a really good example of when it can go awry obviously they're on a tv program so it's different but from the way adam speaks about his couple being coupled up with rosie he's very much saying oh no it's casual like it doesn't mean anything necessarily like just because we're coupled up we're not in a relationship he keeps saying that to the other people yeah and so clearly he feels vindicated to then go and flirt with someone else because he's always said that but clearly for Rosie she's much more invested in it and she's not really seeing it or maybe she's seeing it as a casual thing with the potential to go somewhere yeah so when you've got that disparity that's when i think it can be a bit of an issue i think that she just thought that he would have the common decency and not to immediately couple like go off with someone else as soon as they walk into yeah

exactly i mean clearly he's a bit of a i won't say the swear word but i yeah the swear word the pits. Yes. A really hot one, though. It's just so distracting. Oh, no, I find him genuinely terrifying. Yeah, so do I, actually. I think he's very sinister.

I feel like, I look at him, and I'm like, he wants to wear my skin as a coat. But he does. I know what you mean. He's too chiseled and too, I don't know, it freaks me out. I think he is hot. Well, good luck. But that's exactly why I always end up being played by these boys. Actually, not always, but sometimes.

However, I have never had a casual sex thing like this, to be honest. Also, I've never been on Love Island, obviously. But if the producer is producer listening send me in my next question how long do you think a casual sex relationship can actually go on for that is a really interesting one i just i don't think that it's good to put a definitive timeline on things like this but i feel like you know if you're sleeping with someone casually and you like them i i don't know. I feel like it always progresses quite quickly. I'm very early to be like, OK, now I've made my decision. Does one person always catch feels?

I think they do. I think it's sort of inevitable. Yeah, same. In most of the cases I know where people have been sleeping together casually, one person catches feels and then it all goes tits up. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Well, I mean, it's going to go tits up if only one person catches feels and then it all goes tits up yeah yeah exactly well i mean it's gonna go tits up if only one person has feels yeah although one of my best friends actually her now boyfriend they've been together for years they live together they started out as little

friends with benefits oh really yeah so that well that was fine though because they both were like oh yeah no i actually like you and i actually want more too but i just think in the majority of cases i know what would happen to me did they have a friendship first though before no oh they didn't oh that's interesting so they're really just benefits yes yes because i understand that if they're actually friends actually that's what a relationship is isn't it a friend with benefits yeah no it really is isn't it yeah yeah that's what it's meant to be anyway because you're meant to be friends with your boyfriend that's true yeah god what a what a profound realization rachel christ this is what we've been missing the whole time mind absolutely

blown to be honest um okay yeah no so that worked for them because great they both were like yes all the feelings but i just think that is unlikely to happen most times i think it's a short-term thing to be honest i think it's always got an expiry date and i don't i don't i wonder how it ends i don't think it ever ends well i can't see myself ever doing it no i don't want the sex doing the sex doing the sex doing the casual sex multiple times with someone and not catching feels but that's because to me it is something that is kind of like intimate

and you know will always have some type of meaning she says now maybe I've changed my mind but I have so much respect for the people who do it and it kind of is just like that was fun it doesn't mean anything i just don't think i could don't most relationships though start as casual sex and then progress into being a relationship and isn't just how that's just how it works that's what i

think that's what i've heard bella the long-time singletons aren't sure the long-time singletons are puzzled how do relationships work i just wonder why i've been doing it wrong all this time it's like yeah you've kind of got to do that first yeah i think i think you do and i think either what happens is it progresses somewhere or it fizzles because one person catches the feels and the other person doesn't and then they just sort of phase them out because the problem with a casual sex relationship is i think you probably feel that you can treat each other a bit worse than you would yeah if you were in a normal relationship like you can just not reply to their messages for days you can just not make a plan with them right yeah because you're not supposed to really owe them exactly

and anything apart and that can be fine if it's mutual but if it isn't it's sort, because you're not supposed to really owe them anything apart from your... Exactly, and that can be fine if it's mutual, but if it isn't, it's sort of like you're stringing them along. Do you know what must be horrendous? It's if you're casually sleeping with someone, and then you're... Maybe you don't even realise, you sort of start to feel something for them, and then they're like, I need to end this now, because I've actually... I'm now dating someone,

or I've now got an actual boyfriend on Garfield. That's the worst. Yeah, that's terrible, and got an actual boyfriend on Garfield. That's the worst. Yeah, that's terrible. And you're like, what? No. That is the worst. And then you just get discarded. Yeah.

Because they've got someone else to do it with, but they actually want more with that person. Oh, it's like when someone, you like, maybe date with someone and then they go, oh, well, I mean, I'm just really not looking for anything serious right now. And then two months later, they're posting couple selfies on Instagram with some other girl. It's never really the case, though, that you don't want anything serious right now. And then two months later, they're posting couple selfies on Instagram with some other girl. It's never really the case, though,

that you don't want anything serious. It's that you don't like someone enough. Exactly. I always think so as well. No, so true. And it's like recently I had to tell this guy I just wasn't in a mental space for dating, which he just wouldn't accept either.

And he kept being like, message me when you're in the right mental space for dating. And I'm like, take the hint. Well, at least he didn't ghost. Me? No. Well, no, but i did ultimately well not really but he he just wouldn't take no for an answer even though i'd already said no i think you were straightforward with him i i was because i wasn't and i'm potentially not i don't know in a mental space for dating well but also you hadn't slept with this guy i think it's different we literally

went on one date yeah i think oh i think to fine yeah absolutely fine i would just run away and never reply yeah very persistent it's quite nice when someone's very persistent i mean scary yeah but like also my self-esteem's a little bit better today yeah yeah no no true true true true but i mean it always also turns me off because i'm confusing like that yeah uh but anyway that's not what this is about is it we always seem to go into my issues wow wow it's almost like i just need to talk about them um okay so why don't we think about what our what are our tips for someone embarking on a casual sexual thing i was gonna say relationship but let's not even call it that encounter

well it might be i presume it could be a one-off it could be a multiple encounters yes yes yes i think the first thing you need to do is work out in your mind what you're expecting from the situation so that you you know you set yourself some parameters yes i think that's really important and try and be honest with yourself yeah um you know you can it's very easy to say to yourself oh yeah i'm fine like if someone if you like someone and they're not really engaging but they they sort of leave little breadcrumbs of interest maybe they like a social media post or they send you a message every now and then it's very easy to convince yourself that oh no they do like me they're just busy they're just they're just not in the right head or they send you a message every now and then. It's very easy to convince yourself that, oh no, they do like me, they're just busy,

they're just not in the right headspace for dating. Actually, like Rachel, actually I've got a quote from Caroline's book about this very thing, because in the book she's the main character. I hope this won't be a spoiler alert. No, it won't be. But the main character is an agony aunt

and she gets a lot of emails from listeners who give their dating problems and yeah and so she's the main character is kind of being messed around by this elder man the boss that she's dating and she says i know exactly what jolly who is the agony aunt pseudonym that she uses would say i know because i've written words to mistresses before hundreds of them words like you are accepting the love you think you deserve and don't allow yourself to be hurt just so you can be someone's hobby and you're not being easygoing and fun,

you're being an idiot. Which I think is so important. Oh God. As bleak as that sounds. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Be honest with yourself, it's my tip. So true, so true. Because I think we all like to think,

men and women, that we can do this like oh i'm just gonna be really casual it's gonna be fun i'm gonna catch new feelings and but the fact of the matter is is that when you see it with someone there are those hormones that get released um and you know for some people it might be kind of inevitable that you're gonna start liking someone if you if you know like you people it might be kind of inevitable that you're going to start liking someone if you if you know like you can just do it casually then absolutely fantastic but if you know that actually it's likely that you're gonna start wanting a bit more you're gonna start to actually like that person and think about them during the daytime and want them to reply to your text and get all fizzy when they do text you then you need to catch yourself check yourself before you wreck yourself yeah that's such good advice wow i know i always feel like i'm very easygoing

and fun but um in reality i have absolutely no chill yeah neither do i i think you know as a stand-up comedian you have to be a very special combination of sort of like, you know, terribly, terribly low self-esteem, but also think you're very, very brilliant. So I'm just like, oh, of course they don't want to go out with me. And then I'm like, but why? I am so amazing. It's very confusing.

No, I can imagine that. I can imagine that. And then you have to also kind of not get insulted if the person is like, don't want to date you i just want to shag you not that they'd ever say that to you though well they might maybe not in such a blunt way you know i've been propositioned before really um well you're basically a guy that i knew was it was the end of a night out type thing. And he basically said he wanted to come back to my house. And I was like, ehhh.

And then he was like, yeah, I've just got to have a relationship. And I was like, ooh, absolute swerve. And I was also thinking, you know, this is just not a good idea to do. And then I wake up the next morning i was like i'm so pleased with myself for just coming home and eating pizza in bed i actually think i've come to a realization during this conversation i think casual sex works if it's a one-off i think if it's a one-off and maybe it's a friend and you've always sort of fancied each other and you sleep with each other at a party interesting it doesn't matter big deal get over it if it's a prolonged

thing and you're seeing them you know sporadically over a period of months or weeks or whatever then i think it's destined to fail because feelings will inevitably inevitably develop expectations will come up and there will be a mismatch in terms of what people are looking for so i think the answer is to just have one night stands okay No, I'm kidding. Yeah, when you want your casual sex, just choose a new dude or lady. Yeah, I don't know if that's viable though because the first time you have sex with someone can be so unbelievably awkward.

That's the other thing, yeah. And would you just want to go through that over and over again? No. There's that lovely familiarity that comes with someone who actually knows what you like. i think they call that a relationship yeah or you can have that with someone you're having casual sex with yes over if it's repeated that's

fine that's true so essentially there's no solution either you have not so great sex and don't get the feels because you're having it with different people you know from time to time or it's the same person you know regularly well maybe irregularly but you know multiple times and they know you well so great sex but it the feels will probably come I think the answer is just to sleep with people who are good in bed but ultimately hateful so so you could never like you never like them yeah but you're like ace this is good but get out of my house yeah that's great and you both need to find each other like emotionally repellent interesting yeah so that's going to be my new aim find someone you

hate hate but are attracted to but are attracted to oh interesting yeah ooh yes nice okay homework for this week ladies yes lovely however what I would love to ask the listeners is we're sitting here

thinking we don't think it can ever work if you've got experience either you from friends whoever it might be of this casual sex repeatedly

thing working please tell us because we would love to be proved wrong yes I agree also if you are engaging in casual sex repeatedly thing working please tell us because we would love to be proved wrong yes i agree also if you are engaging in casual sex contraception contraception contraception yes i wrote that down yes capitals three times yes um that is important yes make sure you've got that straightened out make sure you've got your, everyone's checked out. Everything is a-okay. Clean as a whistle.

Yes, absolutely. Brilliant. I think that's a nice point to wrap up casual sex and go on to a dating dilemma. Ooh. Yas. So we've actually been saying quite a few recently and just been too busy to get into them. But today, today's the day. So thank you so much for sending this in.

It's quite a nice quite a nice length one so you sit back with a cup of tea although you're probably not just sitting at home with a cup of tea you're probably on your commute with your head in someone's armpit um but anyway we hope this will distract you from that here goes i matched with a guy on tinder who i really clicked with this is a rare occurrence for me and we started messaging nearly every day he's laugh out loud funny over messages and I've told him that I hate that he's funnier than me. After about a month of messaging we finally met up for a date. He was a little bit timid and

awkward but very sweet. Although I didn't get a spark I decided to give it another go and we met for another three dates. We've had four dates now but as it's my final year at uni I've been very very busy so those four dates have been spread out over about four months and we've been messaging in between. So it's the fourth date and we still haven't even kissed yet. We leave the bar and he hesitates like he's going in for the kiss but then hugs goodbye. For some reason after the date I just get very angry and meet my housemates to vent. I feel like I've wasted my time. In these four months I haven't slept with anyone, I've deleted tinder, I've not been speaking to anyone else. Obviously not because I felt like I had to but just because I didn't want to. That night after the date I re-downloaded Tinder and

got swiping. Also my friends told me to call it quits with the guy and I agreed. He messaged me the next morning saying last night was fun, hope you're enjoying the library. I replied and decided later on i'd explain how i think we should either carry on as friends because we do have lots in common or just call it quits however i couldn't think how to say it right and kept putting it off i took five days to reply to the next one and apologized he replied an hour later saying how he knows how stressful it is in final year and not to worry this was my chance to tell him how i feel and break it off but no instead i ghosted him like the horrible person i am i've always said i could never do that to someone and ranted to my friends when they've been ghosted saying how cowardly the

person is to do it but apparently this didn't stop me from doing the exact same it's now been five weeks since the ghosting and i feel awful do you think it's too late to reply and explain why i've been a knob and blanked him? Bear in mind, I will probably never bump into him because he commutes to the city where I go to uni, so doesn't live here. I'm graduating and moving and he's moving away to do a master's. I would love to hear what you guys think. Also, please never stop the podcast. I'm obsessed.

That's so nice. Yes, thank you for that lovely note at the end. This is quite the situation oh it's really frustrating because he's just not being proactive he's not being proactive but i think it's never too late to apologize for bad behavior and i think it's always appreciated especially if it's a ghosting yeah because it's horrible yeah really really horrible to be ghosted i think she should totally message even if it's been five weeks because the fact of the matter is is ghosting just gives you no closure and even

it's been five weeks he she will probably still pop into his head sometime and and he'll think what happened with that why did she do that was there something wrong with me and like but on four dates and and then he he would probably be feeling a bit low and obviously you can totally acknowledge you can be like i'm so sorry that it's been five weeks since we last spoke and i just wanted to apologize for not sending you a proper message um and i just wasn't sure how to word it and kept putting it off and i realized that wasn't great of me i i hope you don't mind you've probably realized i think it would be better um i know you can't say as friends if you're not going to see each other ever again but you could say something to i think just give them that closure i also think

the fact that it was the fourth date and he hadn't kissed you i would have been frustrated like you as well but i would say kiss him yeah easier said than done yeah i agree like you know or you know you can do what my strategy i don't tend to initiate the kiss but i would sort of make it very obvious that i am open to being kissed how does one do that without going in for the kiss like what what is the strategy behind that I really want to know please tell me what this is I mean there's no like one size fits all approach guys I can just picture you sitting there pouting your lips I just imagine you hovering near his face a lot just like sort of proffering yourself I'm ready to be kissed no but it's just like it

depends on the situation but obviously if you're like on the sofa next to each other or something if you just sort of like you know make yourself very close maybe you're sort of like lying not lying on them but your bodies are like close and then you know just like sort of like turn your face so their mouth is really close to yours anyway and then they just do the final actually doing it. But then what if they don't? Imagine if you're lying on him with your face really near his face. And he's just like, oh, God, please, no. And you're just moving your mouth close to him. You don't want to go in for the kiss. You don't want to do it.

I think that's bad advice. Don't listen to that. I feel like this sounds weirder than it is. It does, because I'm just imagining you lying on this man. I don't just lie on men. This is not... This did not come out how I meant it. Please do not just lie on a man and put your mouth in his.

It's not good advice, but all I'm saying is... I don't know what i'm saying i okay i what i would say if you want to see this guy again ask him i don't think she does she doesn't no okay well then if i mean it depends if you do ask him out if you don't then just send him a message and apologize say you've been really busy it will make both of you feel better if you send this message yeah because resolve the situation any unresolved situation is going to play on your mind and his yeah it's clearly playing on her mind yeah you know to have written in in the first place so yeah i think for closure from both sides it's interesting though because she says you know after the first date it was the season of chaos and all through the house

not one person was stressing holla differently differently this year with DoorDash. Don't want to holla do the most? Holla don't. More festive, less frantic. Get deals for every occasion with DoorDash. She didn't get a spark and she gave him another chance, which I'm like the worst at doing, even though my mum's always like,

you know, if you don't want an extra chance, I'm like, babe. Oh yeah, I'm terrible at that. If the first date doesn't go well time is precious yeah you know do you know what i mean like but that's probably where i'm going wrong but anyway i think it's quite impressive that she you know went out with him three more times after that but she doesn't say if she then got the spark but the fact that she decided she didn't want anything from him makes me think no so i'm wondering i don't know i feel like it is unusual to have gone on four dates and not even kissed yeah but that doesn't mean there's anything wrong with it it does make me wonder if he was just incredibly timid or very shy or inexperienced or he was like most guys just

stick it on you if you're giving them the signs if you're lying down on them this sounds like a non-consensual thing i'm not really not advocating forcing yourself on anyone just to be clear thank you rachel yes so to sum up in this situation our advice is do message him because it will make both of you feel better it's a polite thing to do and don't worry about the fact that you know you may never see him again and it's been five weeks because it's still it's still the nice thing to do yeah Yeah. And rare, actually. You can recover from a ghosting. I'm going to put that out to everyone. If you've ghosted and feel bad about it, you can come back and apologise.

Reach out with an aubergine emoji. Maybe not. My friend is so militant about ghosting being terrible that if she matches with someone on Bumble, she makes a split decision. And if she's like, oh, I'm not sure, she'll unmatch them immediately just so no one's led on to the point where they're like, is she going to message? She's like, it's not fair because if they've swiped on you

and you're the one they really want a message from and then you just can't be bothered you know, they just, they feel rubbish as well. That's really interesting. That's really good, I like that. I don't do that, I should. No, absolutely not, I'm just just like oh that was an error yeah that was a drunk swipe i mean all the other apps though where anyone can start the

message like probably 80 of my matches don't talk to me and i don't talk to them because i don't know and on the on the other apps where the women don't have to start the conversation i'm just too lazy and don't bother. And guys swipe right on everyone. And then when they get the match, they're like, do I actually like this girl? And they'll usually look at me and go, nah. So I think, I don't know, I think it's quite normal to match and not talk.

Because as well, it's almost the same as ghosting. If they're like, oh my God, yes, I match with this girl. And then they're like, shit, oh, damn it. Uh-oh. If they're like, oh my god yes i match with this girl and then they're like shit oh if they're like oh my god i match with this girl and i'm so excited she looks amazing and then they check back you know a couple of hours later and she's unmatched it's the same thing yeah i guess so i guess you know it's just so much rejection in this world. Brutal. My main thing is I'm on this really awful celebrity dating app. Are you? Which one? Raya.

Are you on it? I am. Oh my gosh, we need to pause with this and talk about it because what can you tell us? I can tell you that all I do is just swipe right on celebrities. Who have you seen? Oh my God, such good ones. Joshua Jackson. Wait, who's that? No way. Pacey from Dawson's Creek. Also, have you seen oh my god such good ones joshua jackson wait who's that no way pacey from dawson's creek also have you seen the affair yes yes he's in the affair yeah so yeah

he's the most famous person i've seen but i see people all the time i switch it to men and women even though i'm straight just because i want to see the women that are on there yeah yeah so do you like did you get approached and asked to join it or Or how does it work? So one of the girls who set it up is a friend of a friend. And I went to my school reunion. And she was like, oh, your Instagram's quite popular. Maybe they'd let you on. And yeah, you have to get put forward by PRs. Wow.

It's super intense. I want to get on it. Everyone on there is actually just like a sad Instagram model. And you have to make a slideshow with a song so it's lots of white men like with rap songs rap songs backing this slideshow of black and white photos of them with bulldogs and um yeah yeah lots of like you know men in their 30s who skateboard oh no yeah it sounds like bibo with the soundtrack did you guys have bibo yeah soundtrack to your profile it's basically yeah it's a lot it's a lot like Bebo with the soundtrack. Did you guys have Bebo? Yeah. He has a soundtrack to your profile.

It's basically, yeah, it's a lot like Bebo, but with occasional celebs thrown in, which I just find thrilling. But wait, surely Joshua Jackson, he's American, isn't he? Yeah, he's American. So basically it's set worldwide because it's such a small community. Jesus Christ.

But yeah, so my friend who I met who put me on it was like yeah my friend just went on this date in new york he like flew her over and i was like that sounds really scary like what he was just like sort of a basement in prisoner and you're just stuck in new york and if you don't if you don't like him do you then have to get a hotel room but i guess maybe she was just really rich or something but i was like if i found myself in new york you know i'd spend like the night in like a rat infested hostel yeah but also power imbalance from the offset i'd never let a guy pay to fly me out to like oh god no i'd probably go for the lols yeah this is gonna be a great story i might end up like you know in pieces in a cupboard but i'll retell the story of the podcast it'll be great it'll be great um no that's so so

interesting i actually i don't know if i even wrote the article i think maybe i can't remember what happened but i tried a bunch of the like elite dating apps um and a lot of them sort of granted me access as you know a journalist researching for an article raya wouldn't let me on because i don't know yeah they wouldn't even let me research annoying um but yeah so i went on quite a lot once for like elite where everyone's really rich as opposed to famous and it was just the most brash awful thing there was this one where you you put your salary or like your income or your net worth on your profile. That's hideous. It was absolutely mental. I was like, 2p. I saw Craig David on Rare once and I think he would do that.

God, think of all the puns. I know. Which day do you want to meet Craig? All I wanted was for him to invite me on a date so I could be like, let's meet for a drink on Tuesday. But never. It wasn't to be. I've seen some minor celebs on normal dating apps

like you see a lot of the maiden chelsea stars i saw um conor maynard i've seen do you guys remember ridian from x factor about a million years ago do i yeah we matched and i messaged him and he never applied oh no i. I know. That's awful. He was the Welsh man. With the blonde spiky hair who wasn't Jedward. Yes. Amazing. I don't know what he's doing these days

because he didn't reply to me. Rude. Oh and I've seen some like tennis players and stuff. Yeah my friend matched with Matt Cardle and they messaged for ages and she just pretended not to know who he was and he was like I'm a musician and she was like oh that's so nice I was like flick you're a monster like I can't believe you were just

leading poor Matt Cardell on and then then actually asked me for a drink and he was like oh no I don't drink and I was like oh yeah he's an alcoholic this all makes sense it is actually Matt Cardell whoa yeah that's interesting I know I actually um the guy i know from uni she shared on facebook recently that she had matched and chatted to dr alex from love island oh yeah i know someone who matched with him and she screenshotted the messages and sent them to me as proof and of his potentially not that niceness no no don't say it he's just like there's a lot of like when are you coming over for cuddles and then like i know you think i'm a player but i'm not that kind of guy which is just fascinating you know what that would actually make so much sense i bet you in the real world he's actually

a straight up player i bet he is but to be honest with you in the real world he would get all the girls yeah of course he would it's because he's in that villa surrounded by absolute mmm, like Adam. And so he can't get a word in edgeways because you've got people with 27 abs. I know, but actually I would still go for Alex. Oh, I thought you were going to say Adam. You'd still go for Alex. Who would you go for in the house, Bella?

I don't know. So someone asked me last night. She was like, gun to your head. Who would it be? The question of the moment, really. Yeah, you've got to bone your way out of the villa. I was like, oh. And it's a child.

Wait a minute, are we talking for a one-time thing? Because in that case, Adam. Yeah, one. One time. I really despise the snake, but I'm like, no, it would be him. Because, yeah. I mean, who are your other options?

I'm trying to think. Eyal is gorgeous. He'd show you his crystal collection, though, and it would all be over. Yeah. Yeah, I used to, when I first, the first episode, I was like, oh, yeah, Eyal, definitely. Yeah. He's so annoying. But, yeah, he is annoying, and he would talk to you about transcendental meditation for hours.

If he was mute. Yes. Absolutely. Absolutely. Lads, we've gone off on such a tangent. Oh, sorry. No, was mute. Yes. Absolutely. Absolutely. Lads, we've gone off on such a tangent. Oh, sorry. No, this is really divine.

I'm just slightly concerned that the listeners are going to be like, where has this gone? Well, hopefully they all watch Love Island. Well, I hope so. And if not,

I'm so sorry if we've just bored you to pieces and also talked about celeb dating apps and everything, but I thought that was rather fascinating. And considering we have Bella here,

we've got to make the most of these gems. But, guys, time is up. I know. So sad. That is it for today. Please, please, please subscribe, rate, and review us on Apple Podcasts

or wherever else you get your podcasts. And we so, so love hearing your feedback. It touches our hearts when we get messages from you on Instagram or emails. And we had so many lovely responses to last week's episode about mental health and anxiety as well. So we really appreciate you opening up to us.

It does mean the world. It does. And we always reply. Thank you so much for sending your messages in. And please keep sending your dating dilemmas and disasters. You can email them to us at millennial.love at independent.co.uk and everything will be kept anonymous. Or you can slide into our DMs on Instagram at millennial underscore love.

Absolutely. We also have a Facebook group, which is facebook.com forward slash groups forward slash millennial dot love. Bella, it has been a joy to have you here. Thank you so much for having me. How can everyone find you? Oh God, well, if you really must,

then you can follow me. Doesn't need any more followers. No, I genuinely do. I'm hemorrhaging them. Yeah then you can follow me. She doesn't need any more followers. No, I genuinely do. I'm hemorrhaging them. Yeah, you can follow me on Instagram at Deliciously Stella. I'm sure they all will. And we'll put a link in the show notes. We will.

Thank you so much, everybody. Bye. Bye. you you