Love Lives - #4 Sexual harassment at work, Tinder's controversial new feature and should we only ever have sober sex for safety?

Episode Date: October 12, 2017

With allegations against Harvey Weinstein growing in number everyday, this week on Millennial Love we discuss sexual harassment in the workplace and how we can tackle it. We also consider the advice of a criminal barrister, who has spoken out to say men shouldn't sleep with women who've consumed alcohol because alcohol compromises your ability to consent. And Tinder has launched a new feature that's meant to be feminist, but we reveal why we're far from convinced.Support this show http://supporter.acast.com/millenniallove. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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Visit Peloton at onepeloton.ca. Hello and welcome to Episode 4 of Millennial Love, the love, dating, sex and relationships podcast from the Independence Lifestyle Team. I'm Rachel Hosey. I'm Olivia Petterter i'm sally newell and this is episode four olivia do you want to introduce our first topic seeing as you reported on it so we're going to be talking about an article that i read recently it was written by kathy mcculloch for the daily mail she's a criminal barrister she's got 34 years of experience in rape cases mostly defending young men who have been uh who have been taken to court on account of rape um and it just kind of what she said was she she said that when alcohol is involved in rape cases it can make it very difficult to prove a man's innocence so if a

woman has had even one drink she says that it makes everything that much more ambivalent when it comes to finding out whether consent was I suppose given by the woman because her inhibitions would have been lowered and her judgment would have been blurred because of the alcohol even just with one drink so she basically advised young men not to have sex with women even if they've had one drink and essentially to women to never have sex if you're not stone cold sober essentially yes I mean I think this is really interesting because obviously it's a really serious topic and you know it is a really serious message underlying because consent is so important and I think that is you know generally that message is being made clear to young people women and men you know with

like consent workshops in universities and things um but I think it's completely unrealistic to say never have sex after a drink I think one of the problems is that drinks can affect people in such different ways. Like, you know, one glass of wine for one person is equivalent of four for another. So I think there is no definition of too drunk. There's no legal definition of too drunk. And I think that's where the problems lie is you are never going to be able to define it. So she's saying, you know, take extreme caution. You are never going to be able to define it.

So she's saying, you know, take extreme caution. I think as well, some people really, it really shows when they're drunk, they're falling over, they're slurring their words, they're all over the place. Whereas some people seem completely themselves, but actually mentally they're, you know, they're not making decisions that they would make normally. And I think that's where, you know, it can be difficult because a man might think that,

oh, this woman is sober enough to be making this decision and saying she wants to have sex, whereas actually maybe she's not. It's an incredibly difficult thing to quantify whether someone is too drunk to have sex because, you know, the actual definition of consent is a person consents if he agrees by choice and has the freedom and capacity to make that choice but how do you know whether someone is too drunk or intoxicated to have that

capacity to make that choice it just it's very difficult to determine in a court of law when the two people in question maybe one of them are drunk was drunk maybe both of them were but regardless they could have had memory loss you You know, sometimes drunk people make up memories in their head. You just, it's so unreliable. So I think for a court of law it becomes very difficult to determine. So I can understand where she's coming from but then like you said, it's just impossible to suggest that people shouldn't have drunk sex

because, you know, dating in particularly modern dating culture is so synonymous with drinking. I don't think anyone I know recently, myself included, has gone on a date that hasn't involved alcohol to some degree. No, I'm quite nervous of the prospect of that, to be honest, like especially of a first date. I would not want to go on a sober first date. I have one friend who is actually adamant about, you know, being completely sober on her first date

because she particularly wants to be in that control, whereas I think most people want to have that bit of alcohol to relax them and loosen themselves up. And I think the same goes for having sex, to be honest. I think a lot of people would be scared or, like, too nervous in some situations to have sex sober because it does it loosens you up it removes your inhibitions it makes you less self-conscious so I think most people especially you know if you're not in a very long-term committed relationship most people

you know would prefer to have a few drinks first and then obviously there is a huge difference between being a bit tipsy and a bit more relaxed and being absolutely sloshed and off your face actually I found a study from last year by a dating website that said 67% of Brits have never had sober sex for the first time with a new partner really and I like I'm so torn about how I think about that. Half of me is like, I'm not surprised by that at all. But then actually, I'm almost surprised the figure's not higher. Yeah, me too. Because 67%, that's just like a little over half.

That's not really. Two thirds really. Yeah. And like the first time having sex with someone to do it sober. Yeah. It's quite scary. I think I find that as I get older disclaimer I'm an old millennial so 32 um I am more willing to like if someone asked me on a coffee date I wouldn't say no

whereas perhaps you girls would um but that said I think I'm still probably guilty of making some dodgy decisions after a few too many wines I don't know if I say no to a coffee date I just I just don't know anyone that would ask me on a coffee date it's just not the done thing I'm not sure I'd go on one I don't know yeah don't knock it till you try it maybe but like literally every single time you know someone asks someone on a date it's usually oh let's grab a drink or let's go to a bar and I don't think that's because people think oh I need to go on a date to have alcohol because of this ends in sex I need no not at all it's just the norm it's just the cultural norm that dating revolves around drinking typically the scary

thing is though is that when people you know drink too much have sex or do something that they wouldn't want to do if they were sober yeah it just totally changes your state of mind doesn't it because not only does drinking lower your inhibitions it just changed it just totally alters the way that you see things and it's just really scary to think that you could do something that the next morning you could totally forget about like friends of mine have slept with guys and woken up in bed with them and not knowing who they are or how they've got there not knowing whether they've had sex or not that is terrifying yeah so scary I mean I think if you're someone who when you drink too much you tend to you know forget and wake up the next morning and like the parts of the night maybe even the whole night that you just don't remember I think that's when you need to sort

of be careful because you will end up doing things that you don't want to do and I think I saw a follow-up article and follow-up interview actually um with uh Kathy and she was saying that actually what she wanted to do was raise awareness of the sort of disparity in the law and the ambiguity in the law and perhaps also raise awareness of the issue of consent and get as you said there is lots of talk about it but perhaps you know we're sitting around having this conversation sort of recalling blacking out and making bad decisions maybe it makes you think twice next time you are on a date you know to have three drinks maybe not five yeah and she said you know that the majority

of cases she deals with they're not with with rape cases they're not between two strangers they're between two people who are maybe on a first date or you know it's the first it's the first time they're having sex they're people that know each other well they do say that most cases of rape and sexual assault like i don't know the figures but are between people who know each other yeah which is terrifying but then you don't know actually like that's one issue but when it comes to this drinking issue whether it's you know a friend you're at a party with an ex or someone on you know whether you're dating there's there's two ways this can happen either and I'm you know I'm fairly certain it will largely be you know men to women

it could be that the man is no thinking okay this woman is drunk out of her mind she's gonna say yes when she doesn't really mean it I'm gonna take advantage of that or it could be that the guy was generally like okay do you really want to do this are you sure you really mean it, I'm going to take advantage of that. Or it could be that the guy was generally like, okay, do you really want to do this? Are you sure you want to do this? I'm checking your consenting. And the woman says yes, but she doesn't really mean it. Yeah, and also he can't prove that.

So that's what, when we spoke to a criminal barrister, they said it happens time and time again. A woman will wake up not remembering whether she slept with this man or not, will claim rape. And that man could then be prosecuted because he can't prove that she provided consent because she was drunk and if you're both equally inebriated then um how do you are you going to have that conversation about consent i'm not sure you are

that was the next thing i was going to say like how do you even define it because it's so not it's not a verbalized thing it's much more instinctual and i think you know when you're drunk you just can't analyze that as much yeah totally it's it's murky water for sure and another area that we're going to discuss today which is equally dodgy and which has been a lot in the news recently, is the case of sexual harassment at work. Now, the reason we want to talk about this is, of course, in the light of Harvey Weinstein, the disgraced Hollywood producer who has been sacked by his own company and largely deserted by his industry

after the New York Times broke a story about all the women speaking out that are saying that he has sexually assaulted them or sexually harassed them over the decades. For example, models, actresses, they've all been telling these awful stories about him, you know, asking for naked massages and just entirely inappropriate things that have taken a long time to come out. What do you guys make of this story? I just think it's so fascinating that it's taken so long for this story to come to light because so many people in Hollywood have said that, you know, this guy was renowned. He was notorious for being slimy, whiny. That's like what his nickname was in the industry. Like these rumors were going around for years

and it's taken so long for things to come out because he would just pay these women off. There were eight settlements, I think, in the last 30 years. I think including one actress, it was Rose McGowan and Ashley Judd. They were the two actresses. There were models.

There were assistants in his company and he would request meetings with these women, ask them to come to his hotel room. He'd be dressed in a bathrobe and would request meetings with these women ask them to come to his hotel room he'd be dressed in a bathrobe and you know would then get naked in front of them sometimes he'd masturbate in front of them he'd ask them to give him massages or have a shower with him it's just so vile and it's taken this long for it to come to light because he would just pay them off I think Rose McGowan was paid 7676,000 allegedly to keep quiet. I hope the Weinstein case is a tipping point really.

I mean, I think it has to be, like whether there's going to be more women speaking out or indeed like more men named, more names coming to the fore that we haven't heard before and who sort of be inspired by what's happening, which is, it's terrible that it has to get to that point, this kind of conspiracy of silence for decades before anything happens. Yeah, I completely agree.

And I think it's interesting how it is sort of like, you know, it's like an avalanche after, you know, a few rocks tumble, because it takes sort of one person speaking out to get the ball rolling, and then more and more will. And the same comes with even has even come with denouncing him. I feel like, you know, for a while, people in the industry didn't speak out against him.

But then when more and more did, and now you'll struggle to find someone who hasn't, you know, denounced him for what he's done and said they're appalled. And, you know, Meryl Streep once actually in an award speech called him a god, saying, you know, he was that brilliant. And now she has spoken out against him alongside very high profile people like Dame Judi Dench, Kate Winslet and Emma Thompson. I mean, this is we're talking about probably the most powerful man in Hollywood. His company is worth 150 billion dollars or something. And, you know, they produced Pulp Fiction. They produced The English Patient, Shakespeare in Love, The King's Speech these huge multi-million budget films he launched the careers of a lot of these actors and actresses George Clooney spoken out as well and this is

something I think is also really interesting a lot of people have been kind of condemning the lack of female actresses to speak up against him but it's just it's so bizarre to me that the focus has been shifted onto blaming women for something that this man has done whose company is run by men you know there's a board of I think six of them including Weinstein's brother who remains on the board after after Harvey got fired and it's just it begs the question of would this have happened would this have happened for so long if there was at least one woman on that board? Yeah, I mean. Because they would have all been complicit in it, surely.

These huge cases, these huge lawsuits being filed against the company, all of the board members would have been aware of it. Would a female board member have agreed to a settlement in that scenario? I mean, whether this is a problem that's more rife in Hollywood than other industries is another question. But, you know, whenever you hear these stories, it's always men in really high levels of power. And then, obviously, if you have one of these experiences and you're...

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and having to justify yourself against someone like that who is probably known as this incredibly charming man who is responsible for making these brilliant careers. Imagine how much... That's just a microcosm of what's going on across all kinds of other industries. And as well, think um it just it makes women sort of lose their trust in a lot of men which is a real shame actually this model Zoe Brock who spoke out about an alleged assault in 1997 she said my trust in powerful men and in industry bigwigs whether in modeling or any

industry is broken and will never not be broken I will never ever trust men like that ever again which is a real shame because obviously it's not all men who are like this but it's it's it's awful that one man can get away with it for so long purely because he's rich and powerful and a lot of people for a long time you know helped him cover up what he was doing yeah and i think women are also fearful that they won't be believed against a man like that you know a young assistant or an intern you know what's she gonna have in terms of a court in terms in front of all of those board members everyone will believe the powerful man instead it's just a it's just a balancing act that's not in her favor although i don't think it was a case that they didn't believe it i think they knew

it to be true it's just they perhaps feared the consequences yeah of what would happen in the weinstein incident for sure but i think that fear puts a lot of people off on a smaller scale of reporting incidences of sexual harassment i think it it's something huge, like two-thirds of women have experienced sexual harassment in the workplace. Really? Yeah, a survey last year conducted in collaboration with Everyday Sexism, which is that project by Laura Bates, found that, yeah, two-thirds of women,

I think it was 1,500 British women that they surveyed, and that's a staggering amount, and something like 80% of those women didn't report their incidents and it's just it's just insane that those will go unreported. Why do you think it is? I think things like everyday sexism that those kind of projects that we need more of those or more avenues for people to uh more channels for people to access to to speak out um i do think it's fear i mean a friend of mine she um a boss of hers her line manager was sexually harassing her this is a man who was expecting his first child with his wife. And he would come up to her repeatedly at work parties,

like pub trips. They'd go to the pub like every Thursday and would be kind of touching her and be very sexually suggestive, whispering in her ear. And she would be drunk at these events as well. So obviously, you know, he could kind of misunderstand her response as encouragement I suppose anyway it went on for ages and they still work together and you know we all asked her to

report it encouraged her she just refused because she said you know I've just started this company this is a very charismatic man in the company he's very well respected no one would suspect him I wouldn't have a case there's no point I don't want to risk my career so sad but so understandable how she would feel like that I have a friend who actually um a client she was working with with her in her company um sexually harassed her and she did report it but it was a massive ordeal and it was like not not a pleasant thing for her to go through but she completely did the right thing but you know it was really hard for her and obviously then she was taken off the case and I'm not actually sure if they stopped working with that client but it's it is

then putting one person's word against another fortunately the man in question you know admitted what he had done but that's not always the case and I feel like more often than not a man would just deny it and often if someone is more powerful or you know more senior wealthier people are more likely to side with him which is so wrong yeah and I get it because it's easier to just keep things although it doesn't make sense and you would always encourage someone to report something like that you know selfishly it's easier to keep things bottled up than have to go through that whole ordeal and reporting it to HR and putting your career in jeopardy it's just easier to think no it's fine you know I'll just keep it to myself and deal with it and hopefully he won't do it

again like it's just horrific but I genuinely think we just need more and this needs to be more common we need to report it more because then I think the problem will be less prevalent and men will stop doing it because they know there are consequences. It's like the Transport for London's Report It to Stop It campaign, which is, you know, their first wave was just encouraging victims to report when they'd been sexually assaulted on public transport. And the second wave was really drilling in to perpetrators that there are consequences you know and you can't get away with it and I think that needs to happen with regard to the workplace as well yeah I think it's really important because I mean this morning I was listening to women to women's hour yesterday on the episode they had Dawn French and Laura Bates on it to talk about Harvey Weinstein and Dawn French was saying you know women need to be educated in drama school

to defend themselves against men and producers like this who are powerful and might, you know, try and coerce them into these deals. And Laura Bates said, no, actually, you know, we should address it head on and we should be educating these producers and these senior male board members about the consequences of their actions

and we should be educating them about sexual harassment and just make it a much more kind of prevalent feature of human resources training because if there has been no if there are no repercussions then then there's nothing to fear is that exactly and you can just laugh it off you know they can laugh it off or you know say that can laugh it off or, you know, say that it's nothing. Do you know what I think as well is a real shame is that despite how common sexual harassment in the workplace is, because we talk about it a lot, you know, in society, I think it's actually a real shame that there are a lot of men who are so over terrified about being done for sexual harassment that they're, you know, so scared to compliment a woman who they work with in any way, shape or form.

For example, I often say to my male colleagues like, hey, I like your jumper or cool socks today or, oh, I really like your shoes and stuff like that. And I think a lot of men are, I mean, obviously they may just not be sort of noticing my nice jumper or shoes or anything. But, you know, if they did, I think a lot of the time they feel too scared just in case it were to be interpreted. Oh, my God, this guy is being slimy and inappropriate. Yeah, I think that's a really good point. That is the other side of the coin. I mean, I have male colleagues who compliment, yeah, who complimented my outfits and stuff.

And I've taken it as a compliment, even to the extent someone said, oh, it matches your eyes. And I think, oh, that's nice. And it kind of puts a little spring in your step, you know, even if it is a much older colleague or, you know, married or whatever. And then when I've maybe told someone else that that's happened,

they've, you know, their reaction is different to mine. And I think that's a product actually of this culture there is more awareness there is more around it things like the everyday sexism project are kind of you know putting it up higher on people's agenda to actually think about how they're made to feel in their workplace whereas Whereas, and it is going to be different for different people. I think so. I think at the end of the day, you know how a comment is meant and how, you know, how it makes you feel.

If it makes you feel uncomfortable, if it makes you feel like, yay. Yeah, and it's interesting actually when you talked about those compliments things. Look back to Bridget Jones, which was made in what, 2001? And there's that whole relationship with her and Hugh Grant's character. And that begins with a form of sexual harassment, essentially. I don't think that film would have been made today because he says she comes in wearing a short skirt and he sends her some emails and he is her boss in the film

saying, is skirt off sick? And I think he goes, quote, something like, light your tits in that top. Yeah, exactly. And then they begin this relationship together and it's kind of all funny and, light your tits in that top. Yeah, exactly. And then they begin this relationship together and it's kind of all funny. And oh gosh, he's so charming. Like that would just never fly today. Absolutely not.

Anyway, speaking of modern dating, we've got a few minutes left to discuss an interesting new feature that's happened on Tinder. Tinder has launched this new thing called Tinder Reactions and it's part of the company's so-called Menprovement Project which I think must be a response to the rise of more feminist dating apps such as Bumble where the woman has to start the conversation. Now Tinder Reactions has been designed by the women who work at Tinder. Essentially there are these eight new reactions which are sort of little moving animations which you can send in a conversation when you're talking to someone on tinder there are eight of them five of which are exclusive for women and these are

this is what the names are um from tinder anyway there's one that is a symbol that sort of is supposed to mean really uh or nope there's another one which is throwing a martini glass at someone well not the glass pouring your drink on someone anyway throwing a glass would be a bit yeah something else um there's an eye roll and there's a strike meaning that sort of you know you've got one strike or there's one just say the balls in your court. However, I think this is meant to be a sort of feminist thing. I don't think it's going to make a difference at all or even remotely combat the sleazy men on Tinder. Forget about whether it's going to make a difference.

I think it's really insulting to women and men. First of all, it's saying to men, oh, God, you're all sleazeballs. So we've helped women out to deal with you. And then it's saying to women, you're not capable of dealing with all sleazeballs so we've helped women out to deal with you and then it's saying to women you're not capable of dealing with the sleazeballs so we've created some fun little gifts for you to throw at them so that you know you have something to defend yourselves with and it's just like why why can't women just vocalize when someone is being rude to them and say you know actually just bugger off i'm not gonna give you a little clever martini glass. It's almost simplifying it and making it funny and silly. And it's just, it's terrible. I mean, I think ignoring them is the best policy. If someone sends you an unsolicited dick pic, then... Or an aubergine.

Yep. Then I think you just don't reply. I mean, that's what I would do. No, that's what I tend to do actually but I also think that if you did want to engage with them in some sort of witty way to show them that their comment was inappropriate or just not appreciated there are other things like emojis and their tinder already has loads of gifs you can use I get that this is like some sort of fun way of expressing yourself but I just it's not going to suddenly make a difference I don't think a man is going to think oh she just chucked a virtual martini at me oh no better not say these things anymore and also it just normalizes men being derogatory to women as you know it's a

social norm and this is how you have to defend yourself against it and tinder said you know part of their marketing the feature was it's simple, it's sassy, it's satisfying. I don't think it's any of those things. It's not simple because it's like an animation. It's not sassy because, you know, you're just being a bit ridiculous. And it's not satisfying because you're not getting anything above these men. You're just kind of being as bad as them. It's kind of like an if you can't beat him, join him mentality.

Also, to continue the alliteration of what it is and isn't it's stereotypical this idea of throwing a martini at a man have you guys ever done that no but in the interest of science or this podcast I did actually uh throw a martini at a bloke today on tinder a bloke who'd sent me an inappropriate message. Did it make me feel better? No. Basically you swipe up and then you sort of see droplets of martini running down your screen

and yeah, it had no effect really. I think I would have felt much better if I'd either ignored him or given one of my own unique sassy responses rather than Tinder's version of sassy. Exactly. Be your own, be your own sass queen. Sassy Sally.

Yeah, exactly. It's just ridiculous. And also, when would you, I don't know, when would you ever want to engage with someone that's rude to you? You wouldn't do that in real life. No, unless you were actually going to throw an actual martini at them. Which is pretty hardcore. I know, you'd take some balls to do that. Yeah, I've only seen that in TV. With London prices, that is a waste of good booze.

Well, exactly. It's like £10, absolutely not. Maybe chuck it in, say, and then buy me another one. Please. Yeah, that's the real idea. Make them pay in actual money. Yeah. Anyway, I don't think it's going to make a difference

but I suppose fair play to them for trying sadly ladies that's probably all we've got time to talk about today how time flies when you're discussing interesting topics thank you so much for listening we hope you've really enjoyed it we would be so grateful if you could subscribe rate us highly leave nice comments and if you do have any feedback questions ideas we would absolutely love to hear them so please email us at millennial.love at independent.co.uk we look forward to hearing from you and we hope you tune in again next week. Can Indigenous ways of knowing help kids cope with online bullying? At the University of British Columbia, we believe that they can.

Dr. Johanna Sam and her team are researching how both Indigenous and non-Indigenous youth cope with cyber aggression, working to bridge the diversity gap in child psychology research. At UBC, our researchers are answering today's most pressing questions. To learn how we're moving the world forward, visit ubc.ca forward happens here.