Love Lives - #40 What makes a perfect first date and how to end it with someone you're "seeing"

Episode Date: June 29, 2018

Whilst there's no one-size-fits-all approach to first dates - Rachel loves activities like crazy golf whereas Livi is more of an exhibition kind of girl - there are certain factors that make a first date more likely to be a winner. This week on Millennial Love, we're discussing the best first dates we've ever been on and what made them so great. Similarly, we also reveal the worst first dates we've suffered through - and there are certainly lots from which to choose.And from the start of a "relationship" to the end: how do you break up with someone you're "seeing"? If you're not officially in a relationship or even exclusive, how much do you owe that person? We share our own experiences and expert tips to help get to the bottom of what to say, where to do it and when - if ever - ending things via text is appropriate. Do you agree? Let us know!Follow us on Instagram to stay up-to-date! https://www.instagram.com/millennial_love/Support this show http://supporter.acast.com/millenniallove. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This episode is brought to you by Google Pixel. I'm Jessi Cruikshank. I host the number one comedy podcast called Phone a Friend. I also have three kids. I need help making every day easier. So I switched to Google Pixel. It's a phone powered by Gemini, your personal AI assistant. Gemini can help you summarize your unread emails,

suggest what to make with the food in your fridge, and it helped me achieve a family photo where everyone is smiling at the camera. I didn't think it was possible, but it is with Google Pixel 9. Learn more at store.google.com. Hello and welcome to Millennial Love, the Independent Lifestyle Desk's weekly podcast on love, dating, and relationships, hosted by me, Rachel Hosey, Assistant Lifestyle Editor, and me, Olivia Petter, Lifestyle Writer.

Dating today is a world away from what it was even just 10 years ago. With dating apps, millennials are finding it harder to meet people than ever before. And even when we do, who's to say we won't be ghosted? So that's why we decided to launch Millennial Love as two long-time singletons in their 20s, talking candidly about all of the things everyone is doing but not always willing to admit. Today it is just the lovely Rachel and I. And may I say, Rachel, you are looking very bronzed. Why, thank you, Olivia. I did get back from Portugal just last night, so it is fresh tan.

It's really, the whole room is radiating with your glowing goddessness honestly she is so brown and her hair her hair is like blondie golden as well any boys listening boys Rachel is looking great well might I also add that Olivia's outfit is 100% on point today she actually messaged me at like 7am before I left home to go to work she was like you're really gonna appreciate my outfit today and she was right I do really appreciate we've got a lovely sort of pale pink striped shirt on how would you describe this skirt because the skirt I would say is like a plaid pastel multi-colored multi-colored but pastel hues um and then some fabulous shoes

sparkly pink sandal platforms and then a fluffy pink and yellow handbag that my friend ella bought for me for my birthday yeah which is so ridiculous that i just love it thanks anyways uh should we introduce that as a regular segment today what are we wearing what are we wearing because my earth it's boring i'm just wearing a dress um anyway what has been going on though so a lot has been going on on the island of love oh goodness me see this is the thing i am it's thursday currently and i didn't get to watch last night's episode because i was on a plane so i'm it's so tricky when you miss one episode of love island you're like should i try and avoid all spoilers? And it's kind of impossible to avoid spoilers,

I think. So I will just fill you in because frankly, I think the show was getting a bit boring. I don't. Okay. You've been away.

It's been getting a bit boring. I was watching it while I was away. The last episode I watched was when Wes, like Megan said to Wes, like kiss me and he was like,

what? But then he looked like he was, and then he broke things off with Laura and then it was like, vote to Wes, like, kiss me. And he was like, what? But then he looked like he was. And then he broke things off with Laura. And then it was like, vote for the couple you want to save. And obviously I voted for Jack and Danny. Okay, let me just provide a little more context to that situation. Because that's quite scandalous, I think. So basically, Megan broke up with Eyal.

She was in a couple with him. The reason of which she said was because they didn't have enough banter and they weren't playful with each other only sexual attraction yeah so fair enough she ended it with him um but can i just interject she those two had they had had sex like a day earlier and then she ended it and can we just rewind to actually when Adam and Rosie did stuff and then he like ditched her a day later. Everyone was in uproar. And like Megan totally did the same thing. Yeah, I agree.

I agree. I think it's quite shady. Muggy, as they would say. Muggy Megan. That's what I said. I tweeted that, right? I said Muggy Megan. Oh, honey, you did not invent Muggy Megan.

I said it first. And then like the main Love Island Twitter account tweeted it and obviously then everyone was sharing and I was like I tweeted this first all came from you I know anyway Megan is being very muggy because then she went over to Wes and said oh I just really like you Wes has been coupled up with Laura since the beginning their relationship has been fairly solid I mean ups and downs but he said that he was falling for her in like the second week. He did say that. And they just, they seemed pretty solid.

So anyway, it was quite surprising because then Wes decided, oh, well, this beautiful Megan likes me. So maybe I'm going to explore things with her. It's just very millennial to always want what's new and shiny and think, well, this might be better than what I've got. Well, exactly. millennial to always want what's new and shiny and think well this might be better than what i've got well exactly and what he then did was not end things with laura and decide to go for megan he set out to say to laura look i don't necessarily want to end things with you but i'm gonna start chatting to megan more that's what he said to her trying to keep his options exactly trying to keep

both people around in multiple baskets exactly which is absolutely horrific and the thing is if he wasn't on a reality show he would be doing that in secret and megan wouldn't know that laura was doing it anyway laura quite rightly said well that's a load of rubbish i'm not gonna stick around and wait for you while you go and crack on with some other girls so let's end things now yeah then in last night's episode which you missed uh so where's his where's obviously broke things off with laura laura was crying and was quite devastated about it she called megan a slag which she should not have done no and she apologized for that in today's episode i agree she shouldn't have done that um so she apologized for that then that evening wes and

megan went and slept in one of the day beds together outside and were kissing and cuddling all night people move on so quickly don't they so quickly and i just thought that was so inappropriate and i just think the idea of like like we said before ditching someone for someone else so publicly i don't know it really is about all the time yeah and love island you can't not do it under the other person's nose because you're literally on one villa um in one villa and and then megan was saying to wes oh kiss me kiss me kiss me was trying to get him to kiss her even before he she is a snake why didn't she go and speak to laura before doing that and then she's saying how she's got no girlfriends and she's more of a boy's girl it's like babe i'm not like i'm not surprised are you

kidding you're not you don't have any girl mates it's no secret why and i mean like i don't want to fully judge megan because obviously i don't know her no No, neither. But I just, I'm always wary of women who say they don't have any female friends. I agree. And also wary of men who say they don't have any female friends and wary of women who don't say they have any male friends.

I think it's very important to have friends of the opposite sex. Be friends with all genders. Be friends with all genders. I have way more girlfriends than I have boyfriends. I do too, but I have some very close male friends as well.

Well, good. Otherwise, you know, this would be over. Yes. Anyway, have you got anything to add aside from Love Island? What I will add is, and I'm so behind the times, is that I have recently got... Everyone's been months and months and months and been telling me to watch Queer Eye.

And I've been like, yeah, yeah, I'll get to it because I'm sort of a one series at a time kind of gal. You know, I'm very committed in that sense, which is ironic considering I can't commit to anything else. And then I recently finally, because series two of Queer Eye came out, I was like, okay, now I'm going to go back to series one. And I'm so obsessed.

I don't think I've ever been this, or not for a long time have i been this obsessed with a tv show this is the most fabulous tv show in the world this is five fabulous gay guys and they they find they go to these men in the states like i think they're all from the south somewhere in atlanta um and and they will be nominated for various reasons they give them makeovers but it But it sounds so superficial because they do makeover their appearance and they do makeover their homes. But they really give them life makeovers

and they're so inspirational and it's always just crying. It's emotional and they all rediscover themselves and who they really are. And it's just absolutely fabulous. And I'm so obsessed oh that sounds really great it's so great do they then go and find relationships afterwards yeah well some it depends what situation they're in already some of them it's like you know some of them are kind of older and they've got to that point where the wife still makes an effort for them and they just

stop making an effort for their wife or sometimes it's like oh well I don't deserve to spend money on clothes for myself and then it's like no you do deserve stuff you deserve some time for yourself and look after yourself i do really want to watch that is it on netflix yeah i am obsessed with the tv if we're gonna talk about tv shows there's a tv show called unreal oh my gosh what so you know how i mentioned the bachelor a few weeks ago yeah so this is a show written by an ex-producer of the bachelor and it's all about making a show like The Bachelor and it's actually fascinating. Wait, is it like a documentary?

No, it's fiction. But the premise is it's a team of producers making a show called Everlasting, which is exactly like The Bachelor. So there's one man, 20 women, all competing for his love. He proposes to the winner at the end and girls get eliminated as the show goes on it's such a weird concept it's so misogynistic it's so rooted in sexism but oh my god it's fascinating

watching this version unreal because you see the way and obviously it's fiction but because it's written by an ex-producer you sort of can't help but think some of this is true they manipulate the contestants so much to the extent where they create fake plot lines that they trick them they like there's this one character who has been abused by her father or something i think she says and she grew up in a foster home and they then she reveals this to the suitor on camera in like one of their dates the producers don't like this particular contestant they don't want her to win they want her to be like the kind of psychotic one on the show so they then bring in this actress to pretend that she's this woman's mother who then comes on and the and then the

contestant is like i've never seen that woman before in my life. And then the woman's like, oh, no, darling. You know, she always says this. She's got problems. And then she starts freaking out. She's like, I've never seen this woman. This is insane. That's so messed up. I know.

And then they portray her as this, like, complete sociopath. Oh, my God. But then this woman was hired by the production team. Oh, that's mental. So it's all things like that. And it's just, it's so interesting. And it makes me wonder. Yeah. How much of that actually happened yeah on a show like love island you know was there someone in the wings saying to megan where's really likes you go tell him that you like that

you like him and you just don't know so it's really fascinating well we might soon be able to get some love island secrets with a future guest on this podcast. Love Island fans, get ready for next week's episode. Watch this space. However, let's do a bio of the week, shall we? Yes. So this is from Stephen. Stephen says in his bio,

I went to Waterstones and asked the woman for a book about turtles. Hardback, she asked. And I said, yeah, and little heads. I thought it was a really cute joke. Yeah, it was cute. I think there's nothing wrong with a bio that's just a joke. If it's actually something a bit original,

I'd never heard that joke before. It's a bit of a dad joke, but I quite like it. I agree. I'm much more inclined to swipe right on a funny bio than a serious bio that lists all of these traits that are conventionally attractive. Ugh, my worst thing ever. No, I absolutely agree. So yes, very good, Stephen. Very good. Cute. Lovely. So we're going to dive into sort of two topics of discussion today. And the first one is what makes a good first date?

Hmm. Hmm. Very interesting. and the first one is what makes a good first date hmm very interesting so I I have been talking about this a lot with some of my friends because we have been going on first dates and so many first dates so many first dates and one of I think first of all the concept of first dates has totally changed because more often than not the people that we go on first dates with, we're meeting on dating apps. So it's not just a first date. It's actually a first meeting. Absolutely. So I think that changes a lot of things. I think it can be quite awkward if you meet someone off a dating app for the first time and you haven't spoken for that long and you're like what

do we talk about now you look a bit different from your photographs it can make things a bit funny from the beginning so I think it's harder to have a good first date now than it might have once been possibly I don't think that's necessarily true because I think if you hadn't met on a dating app in the olden days wherever you met like in a bar or something you wouldn't exactly have chatted much about and like learned much about each other's life stories would you you'd have had a chat fancy each other exchange numbers that would have been it true but you've seen each other face to face whereas this will be the first time you're actually seeing that person in the flesh and not some curated version that they've produced on profile yeah so you know that person could not meet your

physical expectations they could be shorter or taller yeah they could be you know they could just look totally different um and that can set things off in a funny direction but I have had some pretty good first dates from dating apps okay tell me about your best my best well obviously the best is always going to be the one of the person that you like probably were most recently dating or not necessarily no okay mine wasn't okay i'm trying to think of mine well i had a really good one with a guy who i met on a dating app we met at a train station and didn't plan like a particular bar or restaurant or anything um just decided we find somewhere um so spontaneous oh rachel i am so spontaneous bringing me i am manic pixie dream girl personified anyway i'm like twitching at the prospect of having a reservation somewhere

um anyway it was just a really cute day we went to a pub and then we had one drink there and then we went to another like underground bar this is an evening it was an evening yeah it was i think a thursday evening so it was a school night i think thursday evening is a good good date night yeah because it yeah it's not a weekend yeah so you're not committing you know full weekend plans and you can fully be like i need to leave now exactly but equally if you're having fun it's a th Yeah, but also it kind of stresses me out if I go on a Thursday date and they're like, let's meet at like nine. And I'm like, don't you understand? Oh, no.

I have to be in bed at 10.30. No, I think 8pm is prime weekday date time. I would ideally even meet even earlier, to be honest with you. I'm like, 6pm, let's start. Let's get this done by nine. Okay, but then, so this is what I was going to ask you. If you meet around six. Dinner.

Dinner. So problematic. The dinner question. I never eat on first dates and that is terrible because then I get so drunk. So what I would do. I didn't eat on this date

I was talking about. We didn't eat. See, I would never do that. So how do you incorporate the food aspect? So if I'm meeting sort of before dinner time, early evening, I'd have a substantial snack before and then on the date if I've if I've decided after a couple of drinks like I need to escape this then I'll go home and eat before it's too late if it's going well after like third

drinks I'll be like can we get some food please and then you hopefully you're in a place where you can get nibbly bits or like chips or something and I because I always I love to eat food so I'm always food's always on my brain I think you should always yeah I think if you are hungry and particularly not not even just if you're hungry but if you feel yourself getting really drunk and sort of getting to that stage where your mind's a bit fuzzy and you know it's an early it's it's a first date you need to be quite clear you need to be you need to be focused really I mean we've all definitely got too drunk on first days no I know but but then I think in those situations just go and get food like I remember once being on a date and we were walking to we were walking from one bar to another

and we passed a pret and I could feel myself getting drunker and drunker and it was only about 8 30 p.m and I was like okay can we go into pret and get a sandwich i love that you went to pret that's hilarious and he's like yeah sure can we please go back to your best date though i'm not done with this so you just went to a few places for different drinks right yeah um so what made it such a good first date? Was it actually him? To be honest, it had nothing to do with the places or, you know, where we were. I mean, I do think the idea of going to different places kept things fun because I think if you spend the whole evening in one place,

it could potentially get a little dry. But it was just that we got on really well and it was the first time I'd met him and it was exciting. So this was the fact that you clicked and fancied each other yeah and we kissed and this is the other thing I want to talk about but get on to that we're doing best and worst first day okay so that was so that was a good one um and yes probably my best what about you um so so many So many dates. I have been on a fair few first dates in my time. And I would say probably the best one was actually with a guy that I had not met on a dating app. I'd met him in person and we had so chatted a bit before.

But we went to Swingers, the crazy golf place. i had to say that is my worst nightmare for a day no it wait why because i hate activities you're why so boring see i really like activities and i've another one i love is bounce ping pong i love these things because i know it's super fun but it's like forced fun no no it's it's actual fun it's actual fun and you have you have drinks and food like we had pizza we had drinks it's like we played crazy golf it's fun or like this place in south london as well in clapham called the four thieves where it's called pub but then there's also there's this whole games room upstairs with like scalextric and again crazy golf and like so many things like that i i like it when there's also this whole games room upstairs with, like, Scalextric and, again, Crazy Golf and, like, so many things like that.

I like it when there's a bit of activity involved. You don't want the whole date, especially if you've only just met, to be, like, meet and then be like, okay, now we're doing activity. I always think it's good to start with just sitting and having a drink and a chat because I sort of, you know, do want to talk to them a bit. But I'm always keen for doing something like that to be honest I think but then I I will also say that you know again that date was good because I liked the guy and we continued to date for a couple of months yeah so yeah basically three years in millennial terms um so that was good but I like an activity if it's something, maybe not on the first date though.

I think on the first date, the thing is you didn't meet this guy on a dating app. No. I think if it's someone you meet on a dating app, you really need to speak to them first. Yeah, that's why I was saying you start at least with the chats. And then I think in terms of activities, I would probably save it for the second or third date. I probably wouldn't ever want to do something like crazy golf or

first of all because I'd be absolutely rubbish at it. Doesn't matter if you're rubbish at it. No I know but I just don't find it that fun and then I would rather go to an exhibition. Start to be on an exhibition. I'm so cultured. Yeah I'm very, I'm seriously cultured. I mean I have to say like if a boy suggested an exhibition to me on the first date I'd be like really oh no I think it's fun because it gives you something to talk

about I would have nothing to say I'd be like this is there are some really cool exhibitions like photography ones yeah okay no true but like we live in London baby we do live in London thing is they're very expensive and there is a lot of there's a lot of amazing exhibitions like the summer exhibition at the royal academy is amazing but it costs like 25 quid to get tickets in fact anyone listening if you want to go to an exhibition on a first date in the summer my suggestion is to go to the bp portrait award at the national portrait gallery it's on every year it's brilliant it's a painting competition it's the most prolific painting competition in the world it's all portraiture

and it is free admission and it's in trafalgar square which is perfect date place so you can go to the exhibition and then go on to the array of bars that surround it delightful top tip from libby um do you have any particular bad first dates that stick out in your memory? Is there a worst? Oh, yes. I've got an awful one. I feel like I've spoken about this before. Oh, tell it again.

Okay. So this was at university and this was a guy that I, I think we snogged in the club on the D floor, which was great. And funnily enough, I remember me. That wasn't the date, was it? No. No. No, that does't the date, was it? No. Oh, no.

No, that does not count as a date. And funnily enough, I remember meeting him at the bar with my friend who knew him. And we chatted a bit and we were like flirting. And then I turned to my friend and was like, oh, he's quite nice. And she said, don't. He is a scoundrel.

I was like, obviously that makes me like him more. I've had experiences like this. And then later that evening, we were talking. Anyway, anyway we ended up kissing and then he got my number and asked me to meet for a drink so I think a few days later we went for a drink at the pub and it was so awful for so many reasons so first of all we we set to meet at 9 30 oh my god too late very late but obviously 9 30 to me well a bit but you know obviously my point is i assumed that it was just going to be drinks not dinner he turned up 15 20 minutes late no um ordered a sea bass

so that was a bit awkward. I'm dead. He was like. I ordered a sea bass. Also, this is very Bristol University. Oh, God, yeah. I ordered a sea bass. Yeah, it cost like 40 quid or something. It's ridiculous. Anyway, I was just having cocktails. So that was awkward. You were just having cocktails while he was having sea bass.

Because I've had this problem before, but I ended up just like guilt getting a pizza, even though I'd had dinner because the guy was getting pizza. I better get pizza too. Maybe I should have got a sea bass or a lobster anyway I remember he like at one point he went to the bathroom and I was texting my friends and he came back and like peered over my shoulder and was like oh I bet you're texting your friends about me now aren't you what are you saying what are you saying he was just always kind of second guessing everything I was doing and was very much obliging by the rules of that book the game and going down the negging route and trying to make me feel bad about myself with everything I said

asked me how many people I'd slept with no it was just it was just awful in so many ways anyway then we ended up getting sharing a cab back to uh our uni houses together and i don't know why we got a cab like we easily did you live in the same place same sort of area yeah and we got to mine first and i just ran out the cab i was like okay bye thanks and that was it and then i never heard from him again oh brilliant i know then i saw him at a party god i oh brilliant i know then i saw him at a party god i hope he doesn't listen i saw him at a party a few years later and he tried it on with me again but in that really creepy really full-on way sort of cornered me and started saying all this like dirty stuff to me i was like this is so. But like the main reason that was a bad date is because you didn't like the guy. We weren't

compatible. Yeah, exactly. Seabass aside. Seabass aside. Yeah, that's my bad date story. What's your bad date story? I've got so many. First dates. We're focusing on first dates. Yeah, I've got so many. Oh, hit me. Well, there was a guy who met him from a dating app.

He was shorter than me, which is not necessarily the worst thing in the world, but I just wasn't feeling it. You know, you realize very quickly that there's no spark there. And I was like, I'll make an excuse to leave after this one drink. And then he takes two hours to drink one glass of wine. Oh, yes. You have mentioned this to me before. It's just awkward when that happens. It's you have mentioned this to me before it's just awkward when that happens it's not so much a bad date it's just like quite a pallid date i knew we

weren't compatible then drinks way too slowly i do you think separate question do you think you know within a few seconds because they they always say that you do seconds but i often think like if you like half an hour ish like another date recently actually earlier this year sometime the first date um i may have told this story again i don't know um we we met and we went to a wine bar and i thought we would you know i you know first day i would always start with like a glass of wine each see See how that goes. And this guy orders a bottle, loads of food. And then when I made some comment about being not best pleased that he'd just chosen the wine, he was like,

oh, you can choose the next bottle. And I was like, and then he kept talking about, oh, and we'll go on to this place after. And I was like, mate, I'm not feeling this. I've got gotta get out so I kept trying to leave but I'm too bad at hurting people's feelings so I

think I was there for at least two hours but yeah these are things where you don't get on with the guy but then I did think it weird that he had clearly decided from the off that this was going to be a few hours at least, like a whole night's worth of date. That is weird, actually.

And one thing that I really liked about the good date that I went on, I was talking about before, is after the first bar, when we'd finished our drinks, he was like, you know, do you have time to go to another bar? He kind of gave me the option to be like are you into this yeah or to be like should we get another drink or something yeah exactly um i think that's i think that's a really because it's a really it's it's a clouded way of saying are you into this i'm quite into this let's go somewhere else i've met some people who their strategy for first dates is very much like i will spend an hour or even half an hour at this date and then i will leave i find that quite strange i think it's a bit odd because if you like the person and you want to carry on spending time with them they're gonna be a bit like what yeah

i think just go with the flow go with with no expectations. Play it by ear. See how you go. I wanted to ask you the kissing thing. The kissing thing. Because in my opinion, if you don't kiss on a first date, it's not a good first date. And that's quite controversial because I know a lot of my friends disagree. And I know that we were talking, one of our friends said that she went on a first date last weekend and they didn't kiss and i was like oh that's a bad sign she's like is it i'm just gonna see him again next week i think it varies person to person i kind of agree with you um but sometimes it does just like depend on the situation went on one first date this year and, you know, we said goodbye in the tube station.

That's the worst thing. And then it was like, I kind of like, had it been outside or something and he'd gone to kiss me, I totally would have kissed him back. But I was like, I don't really want to kiss you.

No, I've had some really, yeah, I've had some really, I've had some very awkward kisses in tube stations. I think if you're on a first date and you want to kiss them, if it hasn't happened by the time you've reached the tube station, it's not going to happen. Don't wait for it to happen. It has to happen organically on the date itself. And on the good date that I went on, it did happen organically. Just we were in one of the bars and he i can't i was quite drunk i can't

quite remember but i think he said something like i really want to kiss you and normally that would really cringe me out because you liked but because i liked him and because i was quite drunk it didn't this is the thing though because if you hadn't liked me gone i really want to kiss you would have been like ew what a creep exactly and that's that's the difficult thing um yeah i think the kissing thing is really difficult because i i if i like a guy on the first date i probably will want to kiss yeah it's kind of another good test actually i think so as well to see and it doesn't need to be snoggerific it can just be a smaller kiss but just to see if you get that little fizzy feeling

inside and I think that is quite a good test and also I don't know if I guess there is in society still pressure for the guy to initiate the kiss in heterosexual couplings

um which you know potentially is wrong yeah it is wrong but equally it's something that we've all been conditioned to oblige by because there's no way in hell i would say something like that to a guy on a first date be like i want to kiss you kiss me no we're not all megan are we no we're not we are not all muggy megan thank goodness for that no completely well like i said in last episode in like the not creepy way it came out you can with your body language make it quite clear that you are open to being kissed yes i agree yeah when i listened to the end of last week's episode back i was like this has come out completely wrong not how i meant it at all do we want to touch on sleeping with someone on the first date or is that a whole

other ball game i think we can touch on it for sure it sort of is a whole other issue in itself however it's obviously linked to the kissing thing because i i have some friends who are like um i would never kiss on a first date like i didn't i wouldn't even want to um i think it's really bad to impose those kind of restrictions on yourself like you know fair enough to have i think maybe with sleeping with someone because obviously that's a bit more intimate well it's a lot more intimate um to say that i would never sleep with someone the first date but just to impose an absolute ban it's just it's just not feasible because you never know what you're gonna you never know who this person is gonna be how comfortable they're gonna make you feel and maybe you might want to

maybe they're the one each one could be the one yeah so uh sleeping sleeping sleeping with humans um as opposed to let's not go there okay um no i've never slept with someone on first date um have you not no no um but i i i do take well, I always have had slight intimacy issues. So I don't really have the desire to do it with anyone I don't know yet. But also I totally don't judge anyone who does. If you want to, absolutely bloody well do it. I think so. And I think it's, you have to be cautious because obviously you run the

risk of being disposable to that person after that first encounter you know what i mean like you don't you don't know them really you don't have any trust between the two of you so if you are going to decide to sleep with them you have to accept the possibility that a you have no idea where this relationship is going to go they could ghost you you might never hear from them again um it could go completely tits up yeah or it could be the start of a relationship i know plenty of relationships that have started where they slept with each other on the first date and it's been like a three year long thing the trouble is i've had plenty of girlfriends who have liked a guy so much on the first date that they decided they wanted to sleep with them and then the guy never met them again yeah because i think

you know there's this stupid rule the idea that women are told that if you sleep with a guy on the first date he'll never respect you and he thinks you're only no i don't think that's necessarily true i don't think that's true i think it's important that you respect yourself in that situation and if you decide to have sex with someone do it because you want to have sex with that person at that moment in time and try not to look beyond that try to just be content with the current situation and don't expect anything afterwards and then you won't be disappointed i've had other friends who on the first day have sort of tried to go home with the guy and the guy's been like no it's only the first day like

that's interesting yeah which you hear about less you hear about less usually. I know of at least one case in which that's happened to a friend. A whole case. One situation where the man said, no, let's wait. It's too early. I don't know if that happened. What was her reaction? She was gutted and actually felt quite rejected. Yeah, I think I would as well.

She wanted to and he was like no and and you know obviously it doesn't mean he doesn't fancy her might it's often actually i think it is a guy i really like this girl let's not rush into anything and you know it's a damaging stereotype to guys that all they want is sex all the time and yeah totally toxic masculinity too exactly exactly and you know sometimes at the end of the date because more often than not they they do involve alcohol and synonyms you're not fully thinking straight you know do you think going for drinks is always the best date and do you want do you need there to be alcohol involved personally first date personally because i get nervous i think i want

alcohol on the first date yeah and you're not even a big drinker no I'm not a big drinker at all and I was actually talking about this with my friend the other day I drink the most on dates I don't like I will go to parties and not not have a touch of alcohol happily and be fine because I really don't drink very much but on dates I drink a lot and I think that is just because it's a part of an insecurity thing and i think it's actually really bad because it doesn't really reflect who i am outside of the dating context and i actually think it's really important not to have a different personality on a date than you would in normal life and i don't have a different personality but

the drinking thing can be a bit of a problem because I get very drunk very quickly so that is why I need to always ensure I eat before a date you are a lightweight I'm a massive lightweight that's because I don't drink very much true uh cheap date total cheap date uh no this yeah thing is I think most people feel more confident more relaxed and more flirty after a couple of drinks yeah I think they do and i'm quite down for all those things on a first date to be honest i think do you think it matters more on a first date than on a second and third date yes yeah i think so too yeah i think it's quite nice to have sober dates i've never been on a sober first date or a first date that doesn't involve booze in any capacity. I don't think I have either.

Wow. Wow. Should we try it? Try it and report back. Oh, I just think it'd be so awkward. So where would you go? We'd have to be in the daytime.

Yeah. You couldn't go meet up in the evening and go, do you want to meet up for a Diet Coke? Yeah, that's a bit weird, isn't it? Yeah, it just,

it isn't done. No, it's just not the done thing. No. Or even if you meet up in the daytime on the weekend you're gonna go to the pub where would you go i mean yeah that's awful i don't know wow tell us what you would do listeners i just can't see it if you want to go on a sober first date, go for a walk in the park? Meet for a cup of coffee? Rachel does not look very keen. It doesn't entice me.

No, me neither. You just need the fuzzy fun of alcohol on that first date, I think. It adds the excitement. Yeah, but you have to strike the balance right. Yeah. You can't get too wasted. No, and to be honest with you, I think if I was talking to a guy and he asked me out and I suggested going for drinks,

then he said, oh, actually, I don't drink, I would have been like, oh, okay, I won't drink either then. And, you know, I'd do it, it'd be fine. But if we're both people who do drink alcohol, even though I try not to drink at least in the first half of the week um if i had to go on like a tuesday date i'd be like i don't ever really want to drink on a tuesday i went on a tuesday date once it was bad did you drink yeah there you go i just i didn't want to drink but i drank because i was on a date and that's what i do on dates exactly i drink it

like a fish. Usually I try not to drink until Thursday at least. Yeah, it was bad. And actually once I remember going on a date, I think this was a Sunday and I got so drunk. Sunday drinking is so dangerous.

It is dangerous and I don't remember kissing this guy for the first time. Oh mate. Because I was that drunk. Wow, that's bad. I know. That is bad. I know. And I remember't remember kissing this guy for the first time. Oh, mate. Because I was that drunk. Wow, that's bad. I know.

That is bad. I know. And I remember telling him that. And he was not very happy. Telling him afterwards? Because he was talking about... What, after the date? Yeah.

Like, the next day, he was talking about the evening in person. And then he said something and I was like oh really he's like do you not remember that and i was like no and it became transparent that i didn't remember when we kissed oh my god i've never not remembered have you not no but even even in like parties and stuff you get memory blanks from alcohol not huge see i do i think some people just do and some don't. I get massive memory blanks. It's terrifying. Yeah, that is scary actually. Yeah.

Okay, so our tips for first dates. Yeah. Don't get too smashed. Don't get too smashed. But, you know, if you want to have a few drinks, that's okay. Yeah. Make sure you factor in food. Yes.

Food is important. Eat something before. And don't be afraid to say you want to eat some food on the date. You don't have to get something messy like spaghetti bolognese or a burger that you might not look the most graceful eating. But chips are always great. Yeah. In terms of communicating with your first date, ask them questions and be interested in their responses. Because you know what?

So few people listen to one another in today's culture i think it actually makes a real difference just to be interested even if you're faking interest pretend that you're interested in what they have to say i ask so many questions sometimes i fear i sound like a job interviewer yeah you don't want that you don't want to be asking them you don't want to be interviewing them you don't want to come across i'm very much like where do you see yourself in five years yeah no don't ask that but just you know bring up interesting things and and yeah yeah smile laugh and just be a normal human with conversation skills because i found it really annoying on a date recently where it was the first day and i was i would ask a guy a question and he'd answer and then i'd be like

now the normal thing is for you to ask me the question back. And I wasn't asking the questions because I wanted him to ask me, but it sort of started to annoy me that he wasn't just doing that. So I'm like, that's the normal conversation. Narcissistic is what that is right now. Yeah, he was annoying. Wear something you feel comfortable in.

Wear something you feel comfortable in. And also... Bring condoms. Well, if it gets to that, be safe however what i was gonna say was i would say when you're arranging the date and deciding what to do say like do you want to do something like an activity or would you prefer to just go for drinks and just ask that or and you could be like or are you more a museum kind of person so things so yeah i think you can say that so it's not like if a guy goes to me do you want to go to museum and i'm like oh

no or if it goes to you do you want to go crazy golf and you're like please god no so i think just say what type of thing do you fancy doing yeah i would quite like that yeah i'd quite like that too yeah excellent so. First day is brilliant all round. Can trees help us grow more resilient to climate change? At the University of British Columbia, we believe that they can. Dr Suzanne Simard and her team are connecting our future to nature. Their Mother Tree project could transform how we manage forests, capturing more carbon and safeguarding biodiversity for generations to come. At UBC, our researchers are answering today's most pressing questions.

To learn how we're moving the world forward, visit ubc.ca forward happens here. Whether you're in your running era, Pilates era, or yoga era, dive into Peloton workouts that work with you. From meditating at your kid's game to mastering a strength program, they've got everything you need to keep knocking down your goals. No pressure to be who you're not, just workouts and classes to strengthen who you are. So no matter your era, make it your best with Peloton. Find your push. Find your power. Peloton. Visit Peloton at onepeloton.ca. And from the start of relationships to the end.

Ah, the dismal end. Something that Rachel and I are far more familiar with. Well, I'm pretty familiar with the first dates as well, because then you have to end them. That's true. So what is it that we're unfamiliar with? The long-lasting. What goes after the ending. What we're unfamiliar with the long lasting what goes after the ending what we're going to talk about when there's no ending you're not making any sense

ladies and gentlemen what we're going to talk about now is how do you end something with someone you're seeing in inverted yes so we're talking about you've probably been on could be one date could be six dates either way it's in those early stages of dating where you have not become officially a couple officially boyfriend and girlfriend you're not in a relationship and you won't have had the chat about being exclusive yet and this is something that I have a lot of experience okay so oh Obi-Wan Kenobi how would you define the period of seeing someone because in my mind I would say you are seeing someone if you've been dating them going on dates with them fairly regularly for a period of around one to six months. Okay, I would say after three dates, you're seeing them. Do you think?

Okay. And I think if you've been seeing them for six months and you haven't even become exclusive, you need to have that chat. I feel like that's too long. Yeah, six months would be my absolute limit. If you're seeing each other, a prox once a week, I think after three months,

I'd be like, so. What's going on? What is this? God, how do you, I mean, that's a whole other episode about how to have that chat. Different episode. Different episode.

Okay, but when things go sour and things go down the rabbit hole of the abysmal dating woes. You're not making any sense, but we all know what you're saying. Yes. No, exactly. When you decide you're not into them, someone else is another swipe away. Classic.

How do you do it? Now, I think how you do it does depend on the stage. Yeah, I agree. When I actually, oh, bless the guy that I went on a wonderful date with, when things ended like two months later, and I decided I had to end it, we went for brunch and then a walk in the park, and I did it in person. Did you? Yeah, because I thought at that point, I owe him that in person.

How did he take it? Actually, much better than i feared oh really he was a bit sad but he was nice about it and we had a hug and we're still in touch and what did you say um i okay so this was around a time when i was changing jobs and it was a bit of a classic um wanting to focus on my career i don't have time and i can't fully remember what i said okay but you know i sort of alluded to the fact that i just wasn't quite feeling it but tried to do it in a gentle way okay good and you took that on well yeah well done i have had some dire experiences of doing that i I, despite everything I say about do it kindly,

make up an excuse, don't mess them around, I think I actually have messed. When you've ended things in person? Yeah. Okay, tell me more. I had been seeing a guy for not very long, been on like four or five dates. Okay.

But this was a guy who I already had like a friendship with yeah so you got to do it properly yeah and I got so nervous about where had you met in person we met at cafe okay and I went into the meeting knowing okay I want to end things with this person and you know like an hour and a half later like i've been you know trying building up to it um and i got i got so nervous and anyway it ended up we were crossing a road you didn't even do it in the cafe no no no we were crossing a road and just as we crossed the road i was like so i don't think we should see each other anymore it just came out Livvy I know when you were crossing a road in the middle of a road

Christ I heard the traffic stop the traffic stopped people cried people screamed there were protests it was so dramatic

I actually just meant the traffic stopped so no one got like hit by a car and then we got no I'm not going to say that then he threw himself down in front of a lorry well i'm done and that's it no not a funny joke anyway yeah he did not take it very

well um and it was really awkward and i felt so bad and it was just really awful and since then i don't think i've ended anything with no in person, yeah. No, in person. But if I were to do it, first of all, I would never ghost someone because I think that is so cruel. The worst. Particularly if you have slept with someone. To just ignore them is absolutely horrific. I think it's your responsibility

as a kind and normal human being to respond to someone's messages if they're trying to see you and you have no interest to just say um hey i'm really sorry i've been off the radar and just use one of the classic excuses i think just say something like i need to focus on work right now i've got too much going on i've just come out of a long-term relationship i know these are all conventional excuses and we've heard them before but I think it's actually closure it's closure and it's kinder to say something like that than to say well I actually just don't really fancy you or actually your laugh is kind of annoying and I don't want to hear it anymore or your jokes just aren't that

funny like don't say something like that to someone so recently I um went on a first date with a guy and then decided I didn't want to see him again. And I was in my phase of being like, I can't be asked to date anyone. And I told him over message, because we'd only met at once. Yeah, see, I think that's okay. I think that was okay.

I was like, I'm really sorry, but to be honest with you, I don't think I'm in a mental space for dating right now. And his reply was like, what do you mean you're not in a mental space and that it was it felt a bit accusatory aggressive yeah and so I didn't reply to that and I thought that was acceptable because I figured you know I've told him quite kindly and I don't need to explain myself actually and um I'm not going to pick a fight with you he then messaged like two weeks

later saying like oh whenever if you're ever you know out of that bad mental space like let me know because we had fun it'd be great to see you and i was just like no just accept that you've said no and the way you're using like my language back at me sounds like you're really trivializing what I've said and so I didn't reply to that because I don't feel obligated to yeah obligated obliged obliged are they both words I don't know I think so continue and so I think after that one date I think I don't owe him anything more than saying I'm no longer interested and he can accept my answer or not and I would say up to three dates I think you can still message to end it um if you've been out four times I would probably say worth it in person. In person, yeah, I agree.

I agree. They'll really appreciate that. And also, it's just unkind. You don't need to... Four dates, I think, if they've been good dates and you can tell that that other person likes you and could possibly be developing feelings for you, just give them the time of day to actually ask to me and say look I'm really sorry but I don't see this going anywhere I had this before

I had to do I did a sort of breakup lunch at one point and um bless him the guy who was lovely um I'd I'd sort of said I'd said it in our previous dates that I knew that I had a tendency to freak out and run away from things when they start to get serious and he was actually quite sweet about it when I had told him that I thought

I just wanted to be friends he was like I hope you don't mind me asking this but do you think it's possible that you're just freaking out like you said you do? And I was like, I had thought about that too, but no. And I respected him for suggesting that

because he did it in a kind way. And I don't blame him as well for asking that considering I'd said that's what I do sometimes. But I had to be honest and say, no, that wasn't it. I think going back to, because he questioned you on it, I think it's good to, you know, just actually accept if someone ends things with you, don't question it, because you never know what that's gonna make them then say they could

feel put on the spot and start saying things they don't mean about your relationship and your time together that are gonna make you feel bad about yourself and you don't you don't want to be that person that's going but i can change or is it because i didn't take the bins out i'm sorry no no one didn't take the bins out i'm sorry no no I'm just I'm just going on you know breakups of actual relationships that obviously is not an issue yeah I think it's different for a breakup of an actual relationship then obviously you're owed a bit of an explanation but I think if it's just a casual thing probably best just to leave it be easy breezy beautiful cover girl totally um that reference reference reference might be lost on some of you,

but I'm sure many of you will have got that. Yes. So in short, our tips for ending it with someone you're seeing are okay to do it over text up to approximately three dates, but you've got to take it on a case-by-case basis, I'd say. And even so, you know, do it nicely. Wish them all the best for the future put a smiley face if you're into that yeah don't um don't do it in the middle of a road

um or anywhere with sharp edges or uh just don't just dive into it maybe no don't just blurt it out like i did um i would lead into it be in a passive setting be sat down or walking very good because I I much prefer doing it walking because

in a park though no roads not in a tube station no no do it do it walking not on the escalator no definitely

not on the escalator we've never finished this sentence so many safety hazards do it walking in a park because then you're not actually looking

in each other's eyes and it's kind of easier to talk then yeah i like that good yeah yeah okay break up break up method break up date place park yes thoroughly recommend regents park is lovely go there i think i was in clapham Common myself. Clapham Common. You said that so bodily. Yeah, that's what I was, Clapham, you see. Clapham Common. Yes, be honest with the person, but spare their feelings. Don't give them unnecessary details that's going to make them feel bad about themselves. So, you know, I'm partial to a classic line, to be honest.

I'm just trying to spare people's feelings. And then even if someone uses a line on me i've had a guy before been like sorry i just don't think i'm over my ex yet and i'm like whether that's true or not i don't really care and but okay fine yeah don't go anywhere don't say something that's going to make someone feel that they're not good enough for you no maybe he shouldn't fancy me that's okay tell me me the X thing. I'm more on board with that. Yeah. Excellent. Yes. Good tips all around, I'd say. Excellent. Enjoy your park breakups, everyone. And that is all we have

time for for today. It is so sad. We hope you've enjoyed this episode, though, and if you have any other of your own tips for how to end things with someone you're seeing, please send them in. We want to know. Any other good venues? Any other good lines you've used? Let us know.

Please do rate us on Apple Podcasts. Leave a review if you like. We love these reviews. Every time we get one I usually check more than Livvy and I go we got another review. Which is very exciting. Snide dig there. I check more than Livvy. No because I'm just like obsessed. Yes okay. Snide dig there. I check. More than Livvy. No, because I'm just like obsessed.

Yes, okay. Yes, I like them too. I like a lot of the DMs on Instagram that we get. Please keep sending those. We love DMs. We love those. Millennial underscore love. Or you can email us at millennial.love at independent.co.uk

with your dating disasters or dilemmas. We've had such lovely conversations with you guys about some of your dating stories, a lot of which we don't read out on the podcast, some just to chat, and it's really lovely. We really enjoy them, and it's nice to share all of those moments with you guys. Yeah, we feel really touched

to get listeners opening up to us so much. It's a real privilege, and it's lovely for us as well to just hear about your own stories and experiences that are similar and it's all wonderful food for thought for us as well. We love to know what issues you guys are facing so we

can talk about things you're interested in which we love. And you can join our Facebook group, facebook.com forward slash groups, forward slash millennial dot love. That is it. We hope you have a lovely, lovely week, everyone. And we will see you next week for our very special guest.

Provided they don't cancel. Yes. Goodbye. Bye. Whether you're in your running era, Pilates era or yoga era, We'll see you next time. Just workouts and classes to strengthen who you are. So no matter your era, make it your best with Peloton. Find your push. Find your power. Peloton.

Visit Peloton at onepeloton.ca.