Love Lives - #45 Should class play a role in dating?

Episode Date: August 3, 2018

Today on Millennial Love we're delving into the murky waters of class and, specifically, the role it plays in dating. Joining us in our discussion is the brilliant journalist and author Sophia Money-Coutts, who spent five years studying the British aristocracy while working as Features Director at society magazine, Tatler.We discuss the concept of 'marrying up' (or down), the problematic nature of dating apps purely for the privately educated and what it means to be 'posh' anyway.Follow us on Instagram to stay up-to-date! https://www.instagram.com/millennial_loveSupport this show http://supporter.acast.com/millenniallove. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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Visit Peloton at onepeloton.ca. Hello and welcome to Millennial Love, the Independent Lifestyle Desk's weekly podcast on love, dating and relationships. Hosted by me, Olivia Petter, Lifestyle Writer. And me, Rachel Hosey, assistant lifestyle editor. Dating Today is a world away from what it was even just 10 years ago. With dating apps, millennials find it harder to meet people than ever before. And even when we do, who's to say we won't be ghosted, breadcrumbed or zombied or all of the other lovely things that we like to do to each other. So that's why we decided to launch Millennial Love as two long-time singletons in their 20s talking candidly about all of the things that everyone is doing but not always willing to

admit. Today we are very excited to have joining us author and journalist Sophia Moneykoots. Welcome. Hello, thank you for having me. We are so excited to have you here. We're going to have a very juicy discussion later on. No pressure. Olivia and I have both recently demolished Sophia's novel but for anyone who doesn't know you, please could you introduce yourself? Okay, hello everyone, I'm Sophia Manikout. I actually started out working life in this very building where we sit now. After uni in London I went to, I got a job on the Evening Standard and I actually did write a few columns about dating back then. I had a boyfriend who luckily lived in Sheffield, so he never read them.

So I was on the Evening Standard. And then I went away to work for a newspaper in Abu Dhabi. And then I came back to the Mail, so this building again. And then I worked at Tatler for five years. So it's always been sort of writing and editing. That's always what I wanted to do. And then towards the end of my time at Tatler I wanted to write a book so I got to The Plus One which is obviously set well not obviously because many people haven't read it yet it's set in a posh magazine called Posh so it's slightly

autobiographical. I'm always so interested when journalists write books and the central character is a journalist I'm always like so narcissistic. no but it's great for us but it's incredibly relatable but I'm always curious about how much is autobiographical and how much is real but I suppose obviously if you're writing a novel you're gonna write about the world you know because that's gonna make it a good book well that's the thing that's that's I think first books or first novels anyway are always quite autobiographical um they just have to be it's like you open up your laptop and there's the scary blank word document. Oh, what do you write? You write,

you just disguise the different name. A little bit. Obviously, I've, you know, worked a bit harder than that on my book. To be honest with you though, you could just basically write it about your whole life and be like,

it's not true. Yeah, yeah. Nobody is, no characters are based on anyone I know. Don't sue me. No, we loved it. I demolished it when I was on holiday. Oh good, I'm very glad. Yeah, I read it in demolished it when I was on holiday I'm very glad

I read it in about two days I loved it thanks guys a great holiday read shall we do our dating debrief Livvy

yes it's been a while since we recorded a podcast it is because we've both been on our holly bobs

yeah can't remember to use the word holly bobs am I like a middle aged aunt yeah I was going to pull you up

for that actually as well I have to say cringing at myself we're all friends Like a middle-aged aunt. Yeah, I was going to pull you up for that, actually, as well, I have to say. Cringing at myself. We're all friends. It's fine. Good. It's fine.

Boss over that. Onwards. My dating debrief. So, I wrote an article about Hinge a few weeks ago. Realised I knew nothing about Hinge. Because it's very different to the other dating apps. Well, quite, yeah. There's no swiping. Is Hinge the one

where it's friends of friends? Well, I think... See, I met my boyfriend on Tinder, but I can't remember... I mean, that was like over a year ago, and I wasn't really on Hinge. Bumble and Tinder

were my main ones. I feel like Hinge has recently sort of come onto the scene. Well, not just come onto the scene, it's been around for a while, but it's gaining momentum, if you will.

Yeah. I just find it really confusing because I'm so used to the swiping mechanism, whereas this, you've got like a full profile with different pictures and different things that you say. Yeah. But I just find it really confusing because I'm so used to the swiping mechanism. Whereas this, you've got like a full profile with different pictures and different things

that you say about yourself. You basically answer set questions. There's a load of questions you can choose to answer. And you do like three of them. I actually quite like it though because I like it that everyone has to put in a little bit of info.

Yeah. More effort than just having a blank profile. Yeah, but it's not like one of those really serious dating apps where you have to do like a 20-minute questionnaire. Well, all like that. I was just on the tube now and I saw the advert for eHarmony

and you have to answer 150 questions to narrow down. And they've got those annoying adverts. They say, this is the end of dating. I'm like, no, it's not. It's not. But it's 150 questions to supposedly really narrow it down. Who's got the time to answer 150 questions? You'd have to be really determined, yeah.

It's just really confusing because you like different elements of someone's profile profile so i was going to ask you because i know that you have it rage yes i do do when you like you know do you like someone's photo or do you like a thing that someone says and then you can write a comment in response to a photo so you can be like hey sexy not that i've ever done that but it doesn't go it's not like public instagram like that's but it's like you what you you dissect the individual parts of their profile as opposed to just saying yes i approve of the whole thing yeah you specifically like one photo or one thing they've said and then you can respond in a comment but i quite like that because i think that gives you something to talk about you always write

something in the comment not always but more often than not because i think if you don't then a conversation rarely starts um and i i sometimes think it looks quite good if you like one of their answers as opposed to one of their pictures because then you look less shallow top tip there clever okay got it i mean yeah all right thanks what's been going on with you i know what's been going on with you but tell the listeners i will tell them so on the subject of hinge i went on a hinge date great a first date and this was the first date i'd been on for a few months actually because i'd taken a bit of a pause i was like no can't be bothered to date anyone sorry what was it that we said we said you had a dry spell so it was time for your wet spell

yeah oh god yeah oh that's so yeah so how on that note how was that first date uh yes so i'm gonna tell you a bit of a cautionary tale to be honest because i went on this date thinking i really hope i like this guy because i haven't been on a date for a while. I really want it to go well. And so I go on the date. And I was really pleasantly surprised in that it was going really well. Where were you? We went to a cafe in Hyde Park and just got a bottle of wine and sat outside. It was like the hottest day of the year.

So it was quite chilled. But I was, very often I will go on a date with a guy and either fancy them but they're like boring or stupid or the chemistry just isn't there in your personality or they have all the personality stuff and I'm like I'm sorry I just don't fancy you and this guy was taking both boxes and I was like oh my god this is me we were vibing there was bands there was laughter he was asking lots about me showing lots of interest i was like yes excited so we'd met at 6 30 but then it like it got to 8 30 and he said he had to go at 8 30 on a thursday he was like i'd better be getting home and i was like

what i mean did he live in like outside london no no don't do did he warn you at the beginning that he was going to have to leave no on that time no no so too did he warn you at the beginning that he was going to have to leave no on that time no no just like hey this is nice bye exactly so I was sort of quite taken aback by that I didn't see it coming I presumed we were going off to get another drink somewhere yeah and um anyway I got home feeling a bit deflated feeling that this doesn't bode well if he'd liked me he would have wanted to continue hanging out um and my flatmate was like no no maybe you know if you read the signs flatmate was like no no maybe you know if you read the signs and it seemed like he was into you I'm sure he was into you and he was

just like you know maybe a two-hour first date for him is normal and I was like yeah maybe and then thanks the next day actually you know like 8 a.m the next morning and he messaged me saying great to meet you but I didn't feel the spark and i don't think we're right for each other you know but thanks for a nice evening which is like not the greatest thing to hear no although at least he sent a message i mean it's depressing that i even have to say that that is an example of good behavior i completely agree i was really early he didn't like drag it out exactly it wasn't like i was wondering the whole day being like oh my god did he like me did he not like me what happened last night and I've actually really learned from this because I've actually been on dates before where I've like

not fancied the guy or not been feeling it and the guy's been really like oh my god that was so great we really got on I'd love to go out again and I'd be like are you deluded and now I've kind of experienced the other side yeah yeah there we go and I sort of made go out again and I'd be like, are you deluded? And now I've kind of experienced the other side of it. Yeah, there we go. And I sort of made me realise that a spark and a connection or the perception of it isn't always mutual. It's perfectly possible

for one person to think that connection spark is there and the other person actually just be making polite conversation. And you have no idea unless they make it explicit to you. Was he British? Yes, he was. Because that's how Americans date, isn't it? It's very much like conversation yeah and you have no idea unless they make it explicit to you yeah yeah was he british yes he was because that's how americans date isn't it it's very much like you'll line up

several dates in an evening and you'll be very like ruthless and efficient about it very true i think that is how they do it over there it's much more efficient yeah i much prefer that i just i love it when people are straightforward it's sort of like a business transaction for a bit i don't mind that i think it's great great. I'd rather... You know where you are, maybe. Yeah, exactly. I hate the wandering. Yeah. Yeah.

Well, anyway, I knew where I stood anyway. So we live and learn. Yeah, onwards with Hinge, though. We move onwards. Yeah. Right. Let's do our bio of the week. Now, this is a bio I found on Bumble, actually.

I told it to Livvy earlier and she didn't get it. I'm yet to explain it. I still don't get it. If you can get it, I'm impressed. Okay, I'm intrigued. I mean, I don't think it's hard to get. Anyway, maybe I didn't hear it right. I don't know.

This is Jack. And Jack says, I like to play chess with elderly gentlemen in the park, but it's hard to find 32 of them. Elderly gentlemen. Guys, this made me laugh. Okay, so what do I eat next? About 32 pieces in a yeah 32 pieces on a chessboard to be fair my delay was partly trying to work out how many pieces there might be on a chessboard that's not a fact i know but i'm presuming okay there are 30 but even yeah i think that is quite

that is i think that's quite funny i feel like it's probably about eight rows of eight johnny so no two rows of eight because you've got all your pieces and you've got the pawns in front of them I mean is it that funny I was at chess club

when I was little really nerdy I mean I'm not into chess and I laughed at that but I laugh a lot Olivia's hard to please I think that's quite funny and it also

it shows a very specific sense of humour which I think is good maybe yeah and a hint of nerdiness if he's into chess and he was maybe in chess club it shows a very specific sense of humour which I think is good maybe. Yeah. And a hint of nerdiness if he's into chess and he was maybe in chess club. Love it. I mean there's nothing wrong with a nerd. Well I'm Jack

I think. Yeah. I think so. I like Jack so probably a swipe right for me and a swipe left from Livvy. Maybe. Excellent. Okay so let's get on to our main topic of discussion today which is the role of class in dating and whether class should play a role at all. I think the best place to start would actually be for, Sophia, if you could explain sort of the premise of your book, because class does play a big role in the storyline.

Absolutely. because class does play a big role in the storyline. Absolutely. And when Olivia and I read it, it sort of made us think about loads of interesting aspects to do with class and dating. So I suppose you don't want to give any spoilers. No, I don't want to do that. But I can sort of, I can talk generally around it.

Please, please, yes. So my heroine in the book, Polly, she works for this posh magazine called Posh with an exclamation mark. It's like, hello, exclamation mark. Posh exclamation mark. And she one day gets sent up to Yorkshire for a shooting weekend to go and interview this infamous playboy who's the son of a duke, Jasper, the Marquess of Milton. He's recently been photographed falling out of a club single again. And so off she goes to interview him in his castle.

And the sort of a romantic storyline sort of develops from there. And yeah, without giving away too much. Yeah, there are moments in the book where she isn't posh. She's sort of, you know, has a fairly normal, typical middle class upbringing. But she finds herself in fairly extraordinary situations because he is super posh, has a castle, has a million bedroom house in Kensington, has a Range Rover, has a Labrador, wears chinos and collared shirts. You know, very much like, we're talking serious posh here, not just sort of sounds posh, has all the posh bits that come with it as well. And will one day be a duke as well. So yeah, that's, and the situations I think for her

are bizarre sometimes, hanging around with his posh mates who say fairly frightful things. And yeah, I think it's very different for her, not having sort of come across anyone or dated anyone like that before I think it's fascinating and I think we should actually just talk about the meaning of posh because we actually have quite a lot of listeners around the world and I think posh is a very uniquely British concept yeah I lived abroad for a little

bit and I remember trying to sort of translate and explain the word posh to Germans. And I couldn't quite do it because they would say, oh, does it mean rich? And I'd go, no. No, definitely not these days either. Definitely not. You can be working class and have loads of money and you can be very posh and you might live in a grand country old pile. Well, not even these days actually. Loads of people who would traditionally have been sort of deemed posh and sound like me frankly uh you know we'll be living

in not particularly grand places at all it's just people assume a lot from an accent or a name in my case and yeah there's it's sort of loaded with all sorts of connotations that's the thing And yeah, it's sort of loaded with all sorts of connotations. That's the thing. So, yeah. I mean, I'm trying to think about how I would define posh. I really have no idea. Do you think it's mostly about heritage and your background, your family?

Yeah, I think these days. I mean, obviously, it dates back from when, you know, the class system in Britain was fairly rigid. And the posh lot were the sort of top of the tier, as it were. And although a lot of people would say we've still got a fairly sort of rigid class system, you know, and those books are still written about the class system in this country. And yeah, and I know some people would also say it probably is still fuelled by the private school system in this country, I think. That marks quite a big divide and is a pretty um yeah inflammatory topic um again some people might say it's if you sound you know like me or if you say something a certain way or if you've got a double-barreled name or um it means so many different things to so many different people

now i think it's you could it's fairly fluid but definitely sort of talking like this is one of the hallmarks I think yeah because we I it's very funny the whole thing the whole posh thing and because you know I've had people say to me before oh you're really posh but then I've I've definitely hung around with people a lot posher than me who will then sort of make me feel like I'm like I don't know like really I don't even know what the right word is but really not posh it's weird isn't it because I don't really consider I don't consider myself posh but it sounds almost disingenuous to say that because people will go of course you are you've got a double-barreled name and you sound like that and it's and you

worked at Tatler for five years and you know about dukes but it's not I just don't I'm the same as a load of my mates who aren't posh you know my, my boyfriend's a northerner from Grimsby. It's just not, I hope it becomes less and less of a sort of inflammatory topic. And I get, you know, it gets, I know that, you know, my, even my name alone just gets people's backs up. I did something for the Times earlier this year and I got added in various really charming stuff on Twitter.

But I don't mean, you know, it's not deliberate. It's not me setting out to do that. It never ceases to amaze me actually how strongly people still feel about the posh thing and the class system in this country. Well, you see, I think, you know, it's easy to say that it's not as rigid anymore as it was. But then you look at the dating apps

and there are a series of elitist dating apps coming out now. Like Toffee, right? Like Toffee, that are endorsing this inbred. Well, let's explain what Toffee is. Toffee is a dating app that launched earlier this year and you are only allowed to join Toffee if you were privately educated.

I mean, I remember when this came out, I was gobsmacked. I thought it was so, so awful personally. And I'm sorry, I'm not saying there's anything wrong I remember when this came out I was gobsmacked I thought it was so so awful personally and I I'm sorry I'm not saying there's anything wrong with dating people

who went to a private school I went to a private school and I'm very privileged in that capacity but I would not want to date the type of person who only wanted

to date people who went to a private school I don't know also I'm quite intrigued about how they police that sort of thing some sort of checklist or I don't know how you'd know'm quite intrigued about how they police that sort of thing. You have to some sort of checklist or I don't know

how you'd know that. Do you wear red trousers? Do you wear loafers? Weirdly, when it was announced earlier this year, I wrote a column about saying,

oh, just, you know, let them, if exactly that, if there are people who only exclusively want to date other people who went to private schools, then frankly,

why don't they just all stick together and leave the rest of us out of it? It's a bit like, there are dating apps for everything right if you're into uniform if you're into nurses if you're into bears if you're into whatever your sort of thing is private school could just be another one and if it takes all those sort of characters off the market

so the rest of us don't bump into them on tinder great frankly so that's actually a really good was my take on the whole thing i think i was just quite shocked though that there was deemed to be this interest in dating someone, like only dating people who were privately educated. That's such a small percentage of the population. If you ask me, it's hard enough to meet someone that you click with,

that you fancy, that ticks all your boxes and you are really making your pool a lot smaller by insisting that someone went to a private school yeah probably really specific private schools at that yeah i know they recently like released this i saw yeah i mean god knows how they did this but about like it was they had somehow ranked the private schools in the uk with the most attractive they said current and former pupils and i'm like current pupils are under 18 that's a bit inappropriate how do they compile a list like i don't know you think on data it might be a bit

dodgy releasing those figures but anyway not for us to police it so i guess my question about the whole based on the book yes so you see the class differences between jasper and polly how do you think those fundamental differences in the way that they've been brought up and their families adversely affect their relationship? I don't think, again, without giving any spoilers away. There's obviously a lot to do. I think backgrounds can come enormously into relationships. But it doesn't have to if you have the same values.

I was about to say at the end of the day, like a football manager. But at the end of the day, if you share the same values with someone and you want the same things in life, then I don't think whether you were born in a castle, whether you were born on an estate, should make a huge amount of difference. You know, Lloyd and I, my boyfriend, definitely have very similar values. Actually, he's far more sort of

proper than me um but i have totally different backgrounds but we know what we both want and we're very similar in that capacity so so ultimately or hopefully that's that's what matters so in the book i think it comes down to sort of character traits i don't think well i can't talk about it really without giving stuff away i don't want to i know what you mean it's more it's more about having shared values shared morals yeah seeing the world in the same through the same lens and and of course class different backgrounds might alter those slightly but i think hopefully not the very fundamental qualities of of how sort of good a person you are or um or what you want in life shouldn't really be determined totally by how you were born basically i have a question for you

guys then about your own experiences have you ever come across or has class ever come into your dating lives and experiences have you ever dated someone where a class difference was noticeable or an issue or have you had any experience with it yeah I mean I I think well certainly with my yeah with Lloyd my boyfriend um we have very different backgrounds and and we sort of he jokes about having a posh girlfriend um and and so yeah although weirdly he jokes he can make that joke I would never make the joke the other way around

I'd never say I've got a common boyfriend because that would be so hideous so again it comes back to the fact that you're allowed to sort of take the piss out of posh people and make jokes

but I wouldn't dream of making that joke back because it's just so awful and like revolting but then I've also dated you know I've dated posh boys in fact i dated there's a kind of few scenes in the book i did date a really sweet guy for a bit and who was sort of shooting obsessed and i went to various castles on shooting weekends

and there was one occasion i remember when we went up to scottish castle and just as we arrived he said to me you do realize because we're not married we won't be allowed we're not allowed to be in the same room together what are you kidding me because i didn't know anyone it was like we'd only be going out for about three months i didn't know anyone else there and he was like yeah so you'll be in a room with there was only one other unmarried couple you'll be in a room with his girlfriends i was like bunking up with a girl um the people who owned the castle so i quite crossly said well i'm not having that and then made the boys switch around but we had to sort of corridor creep because if we'd been bust it would be you know very frowned so incredibly backwards I know it's weird isn't it and I get it you know your

house your rules and you should sort of stick by that but I was just really uncomfortable because I didn't know anyone and he should have told me before so I was yeah fairly cross about that um so yeah though yeah that was a different experience different experience again. It's very strange because I went to Bristol, like Rachel did, and also was very lucky to go to a private school. Encountered a lot of people there who I would argue I viewed as very posh. Have never ever viewed myself as posh.

But because of maybe my accent. I always think you're posher than me. Exactly. But then I don't really know where that comes from like yeah is it just the way i speak i mean i don't you know i'm an only child i grew up in central london with a single mom my dad lives in america like we went i went to a very great school but i don't view myself as posh my family's jewish yeah like i don't view that as traditional posh when i think of posh I think of like the British

aristocracy yeah you probably think more about like people who grew up in the countryside with Labradors like me exactly yeah and that is traditionally the sort of Sloane definitions yeah that has been it and that's still it I mean that definitely still goes on you know those shooting weekends I was going to with that boyfriend that is a world that still very much exists yeah but it's not just that. It's sort of slightly broader. Can indigenous ways of knowing help kids cope with online bullying? At the University of British Columbia, we believe that they can. Dr. Johanna Sam and her team are researching how both indigenous

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Acast helps creators launch, grow, and monetize their podcasts. Everywhere. Acast helps creators launch, grow and monetize their podcasts everywhere. Acast.com I dated a guy briefly last year and it didn't get very far, but he was one of those, like, you know, I go shooting and I wear tweed type situations. Sexy. Yeah. tweet type situation sexy yeah um and i remember like you know we were i think we went on two or three dates so it didn't get very far but obviously in my head i was thinking ahead and thinking like what if this develops and

i have to go on one of these situations and i would have no idea what to do and would his friends like would it be really noticeable that i was not from this same social group? Well, I think that's the interesting thing, isn't it? If you get very serious with someone and background matters, a bit like in the book, there's a certain scene, again, I'm trying to be really careful

not to give anything away. But if you think, oh my God, is this going to be the rest of my life? Am I going to sort of, as it were, like sort of jump up or down on the sort of spectrum? Or am I going to have to somehow because this person I'm with has got a very different background? Yeah, I think when it comes to sort of the rest of your life and marriage, then maybe it does come into play more.

But again, the same thing should apply. If you have the same values and you want the same thing, then who the hell cares, frankly? Well, that actually leads us on quite nicely to something that's been in the news quite a lot the past week. Is this whole concept of, well, people talk about marrying up or marrying down which is a horrible horrible victorian way to think about who you're marrying and you know it's this idea of who you marry you then sort of go up or down in the the class system or whatever you however you want to describe it like sort of snakes and ladders yeah it's so ridiculous and like there was some i can't remember who it was even now but someone was saying that

you know high-flying women or how i can't remember how she worded it but she basically said you know successful women should not be so picky about marrying someone who is well educated or whatever this that and the other and should like i think she said marry down it was yeah it's hooked off a study um a u.s study that came out recently that found that women are basically looking for men with a 60 higher income than what is available yeah um and that and then it also revealed there's a skew in terms of education levels between men and women basically a lot more women are higher educated than men in the US. That's so interesting.

And so this woman was basically saying women need to widen their pool and be more open to the concept of marrying down. Yeah. Because of what's out there, basically, which is just such a weird concept to even grasp. But then there's even a term for the idea of marrying up. So marrying someone who is theoretically in a higher social class than you. It's called hypergamy. Hypergamy?

New one to me. Yeah, I didn't know that. Okay. Hypergamy. It's like people talk about being upwardly mobile. Yeah. It's all very bizarre. Yeah. Very, very strange yeah it's all very sort of incendiary terms yeah it's just yeah and it kind of just makes me think about like you're like i don't know kind of bridget jones-esque when like your mum would

sort of want you to marry like the well-educated boy from the posh family down the street or something yeah be like you know it's kind of this idea of being like oh so and so is so eligible yeah because what they come from in inverted commas like good stock yeah like what does that mean it says nothing about them as a person about their drive about what they've achieved for themselves yeah so why do people why do we care about that and so i can kind of see what this woman is on about but like i don't i don't like the idea of telling women like not to set this like not i don't we shouldn't be like thinking oh i'm gonna settle if this someone doesn't share everything i want but you obviously shouldn't

in my opinion be like i'm discarding all these people because they didn't go to uni yeah it's interesting i think the biology where biology comes into it is quite interesting isn't it is it partly because women are predisposed since you know days when we were running around in caves to look for protectors and therefore these days that translates into someone that earns 60 more than us because they are going to you know on the one hand be a better protector and so in is that partly something that's very hard for us to fight because it's innate and we're just looking for someone big and strong and this these days that might mean you know someone with a huge salary to look after us and our children that's it's i don't know how you can necessarily tell that i think it's subconscious yeah completely

but again a bit grim yeah because we can look after ourselves exactly but that's kind of like again the thing that we're sort of predisposed to think the man has to be bigger than us and taller than us yeah exactly the same thing it's like it's so stupid yeah but it's still there and i find it yeah i said this recently we were talking about our deal breakers and i was like bad shoes are a deal breaker when i actually when i did the audio for the plus one um the sound guy he said after sort of day two he was like you really notice people's shoes because i had noticed apparently throughout every sort of man in this book is defined by his shoes it's clearly a real thing for me it's important can i appreciate my shoes oh you're very good well done sent me a text

about these shoes yesterday because then you yeah i literally bought them yesterday and when this comes out guys go on my instagram and look at what i posted on wednesday of this week because then you'll see the shoes and i'm obsessed yeah so just i wear these on a date and the guy would probably be like what because they're like covered in glitter but i would be like if you can't accept this then you're not the one for me quite right exactly uh went off on a tangent there didn't we yeah from shoes to from class to shoes well it's it's it's it's not linked it's not linked I was gonna try and make a really clever point about that no exactly um so do you think it's inevitable actually that most people will end up settling down with someone with a similar background of a similar class of what it is is it because we sort of tend to stay

in the same circles I guess and that's who you probably mix with but I think it's obviously way more fluid uh or you know the the extremes obviously there are still massive extremes between sort of what comes again money comes into it it's not about money um but i would think everyone in this sort of middle it's more general people mix more sort of yeah i think i think you're right what you said about the private school system i think that's the biggest yeah that's yeah definitely you still get you know i've been to loads of most actually hideously probably the majority of the weddings i've been to have been schoolmates from private schools who've married other mates in private schools i think that is a big indicator but i think it has sort of obviously you know comparing it to

victorian era is mad because it's more relaxed than then but i think it will just continue to sort of become more and more mixed hopefully anyway i hope so and but it's you know everyone says we're all middle class now but like yeah you can't divide it into like upper middle again it's not i think again it's why i'm sort of hesitating a bit i think because i try so carefully not to say anything that's going to make me sound like total dick because it is so easy on this topic i think to sound like it's hard to talk about yeah yeah without getting your knickers in a twist it is so easy on this topic, I think, to sound like Rory Lydon. It's hard to talk about. Yeah. Yeah, without getting your knickers in a twist, it is. So, yes.

Especially, like, you know, especially if you are someone who's, like, very fortunate to have gone to a private school or whatever it might be. Yeah. Then, like, you know, like, to be honest with you, most of my best friends are not privately educated. But then, like, whenever we talk about school and stuff, I don't want to sound like a dick. Yeah. yeah and it's very easy to i think yeah very easy to

um yeah but you know it was it was kind of refreshing as well that like when i remember when that toffee dating app came out like i talked about it with all my friends once you went to private school once you didn't and everyone was outraged at the prospect. So, you know, it's not like, well, obviously there are people who want it, but. Yeah, and as I said, I think, in that case, just leave them to it. Leave them to it, I think you're right.

Just let them get on with it. Yeah, I think it's kind of just the whole class thing is something we just need to not care about, but. Well, I think it's just all being so worked out. I mean. It is. every now and then there'll be some headline in the news which will get everyone furious or we'll have another returnee as prime minister and then everyone will be outraged again and you know i think it is going to continue and carry on in this country in a way that a lot of other countries just don't get they

just think why are you guys so mad we have a class system in supermarkets for goodness sake i was gonna say it's so nuanced because you were saying oh yeah sorry with supermarkets as well and with airlines yeah yeah yeah with airlines also everyone flies budget these days well yes you say that but i had a conversation with my friend's parents a few weeks ago uh they were asking me how i was getting to a certain country and i was like oh they asked me what airline i was flying with which first of all is a very strange question to ask anyone i think it is a bit because i think it's opening them up to judgment because it's it's about judgment isn't it yeah they're gonna make a judgment on whatever you say if you say british airways they'll think one thing if you say right now which is what i said they'll think another

that's a very valid point because recently i did go to italy i know i've mentioned that millions of times but no what i'm saying is I flew with British Airways for the first time in like a bajillion years but it was because it was the cheapest for some reason those flights on those dates

it was the cheapest and some people said to me who are you flying with and I'd go British Airways oh but it's just because it was the cheapest on those days see so you're aware of it

you don't get free meals on British Airways anymore so it really doesn't matter it doesn't make any difference but M&S food guys Marks and Spencer's is on the level of British Airways you still have to pay for it don't get free meals on British Airways anymore, though, so it really doesn't matter. No, you don't. It doesn't make any difference. But M&S Food, guys, Marks & Spencers is on the level of British Airways. I mean, you still have to pay for it, don't you? Yeah, you still have to pay. Unless you're in business class, but let's not go that far, guys.

You're not going to be in business class. That's a whole other level. Yeah, it's crazy. I suppose in this country we have low... I remember at Tatler once we wrote a piece about why... What dog was it? It's like why the Whippet is the new labrador or something so even yeah dogs are judged on aren't they everything in this country can be based

or judged on depending on what class it's sort of deemed to fall into yeah and that's the thing i think i think when you go on a date with someone you have to not not judge them for if they're like wearing i don't know red trousers or you know true, it works. Yeah, we can sit here judging sort of people that we would deem to be stupidly posh and wear red trousers and brown loafers and be more in love with their Labrador than anything else. But why do we judge them more than others? You know, why are they game?

Yeah, well, you shouldn't judge people any way, shape or form, to be honest with you. Like if someone comes, you meet, go on a date with someone and they look like they could be on TOWIE and that's not usually what you go for, then don't judge them. Don't judge them for what they look like. I think it's harder with dating apps, though, because you're...

Because it's taking at face value. Yeah, exactly. Like, you have to make a judgment very quickly on that person, on very superficial information, what that person chooses to show you on their profile and then how that person chooses to behave on that person on very superficial information what what that person chooses to show you on their profile and then how that person chooses to behave on that first date and you know that you know we go on first dates all the time never behave like ourselves you're you're uncomfortable you don't behave like ourselves for about five years right yeah i mean

like you just don't feel comfortable yeah oh it's all fun games. I think that is a good note to end our main discussion on, guys. However, we have a dating disaster from one of our listeners. This one came through to me on my Instagram DM. And here it goes. Hi, Rachel. I'm an avid listener of Millennial Love and it's really opened my eyes to a lot of problems that people face during dating in this age that I can relate to. opened my eyes to a lot of problems that people face during dating in this age that I can relate to. I have been a serial monogamist for as long as I can remember with a relationship throughout uni lasting three and a half years and a fairly short three-month boyfriend since. However I feel

like I have a lot of relationship baggage now and so I have put myself on a dating ban in the hopes that, sorry, in the hopes that you meet someone when you least expect it. I wondered if you could discuss on your show the idea of dating bans or man bans and whether this is a good thing to give yourself time to recover and realise self-worth of all, whether it's a hindrance and just leads to lowering your standards because you're missing that connection because you're consciously banning yourself from dating and dating apps. Sorry for the long message. Would really love your wise advice on this one. I love this. I think this is so common.

Yeah. And I've really, from a personal experience, I have definitely done this. I have gone through a really horrible situation with a guy and your instant reaction is, right, I'm done. I'm taking a break. Yeah. I'm putting it down because it's your way of taking control again. situation with a guy and your instant reaction is right i'm done i'm taking a break yeah i'm putting it down because it's it's your way of taking control again so you say right i'm totally

over it but for me i know that that doesn't actually work because then you just end up ruminating on those ideas and those feelings that you had when that person i don't know dumped you or cheated on you or whatever like those feelings don't go away for me unless there's someone else to distract you from them yeah so like I only really got over that other person when I started seeing someone else yeah but I'm not I don't still don't think that's the right way to do it I don't think it is either but that's the only way that worked for me you gotta be by yourself for a bit i know but then i mean i've yeah gone through similar stages where i might have said to myself and probably other people right you're on a man band you know just gonna take time for yourself a bit but it's sort of a

lie it's more that like i just hadn't met i hadn't been to anywhere i met anyone so it's just me consoling myself with the fact that i hadn't even snogged anyone for you know 900 years rather than actually being on a man band it was just like oh it's not like you're turning down opportunities you know banging on my door this is my choice i'm turning them away exactly i could have anyone i wanted that's true in on a saturday night again but i mean maybe that i mean maybe that's fine as well maybe that's just what you need yeah i think so i personally think if think when you come out of a serious relationship, it is not a good idea to jump straight into another serious relationship.

No, I agree. I think you don't have to quit men in every capacity, if men is what you're into. All are available. But I think you should avoid getting into something serious if you've just come out of something serious like have a fling

or just do some swiping do some casual dating or nothing or nothing exactly yeah but I think you don't have to necessarily

enforce it as a man ban or a dating ban I just think any sort of thing you know we're all so prone to doing this putting ourselves on bans it's like diets right I'm'm not gonna eat any carbs this week right i'm not

gonna eat any sugar this week right i'm gonna be off booze for this week or however long right i'm gonna ban men for however long i think anything that that you're banning yourself from instantly makes it a sort of thing in your head if you mean it's just i don't think it's a very healthy way to go about things is to tell yourself because then when you inevitably eat a piece of bread or when you inevitably have a glass of wine or maybe snog someone, you just, you're sort of, you know, letting yourself down a bit

or you're going to sort of obsess about the fact that you've then broken your own self-imposed ban. Completely agree. Exactly, and what happens when you end your ban, then maybe you decide, okay, I'm ready to go back into it. I'm fully ready for love. I can do this. The next person you meet,

you can't control how they're going to behave with you. Well, that's what happened to me. They could break your heart. You have no idea. You might be ready, but they're not ready. I was like, hmm, I've had a break. I'm ready to date again. Okay, this guy, let's go.

And he wasn't into me. Yeah, and I think you just set yourself up for disappointment if you build these things up in your head. Yeah and you think right i'm gonna find love this year no you have no idea i say that every year i have to say i do think um that uh text who sent in that dilemma mentioning the when you least expect it thing it's the most annoying thing in the world but it has always been really true with me the second that i've stopped obsessing about meeting someone and going you know that thing i was talking to a friend about this when you go to a wedding or you go to a party you go anywhere and you're like who's the single one where is he where is he who is he who is he who is he

the second that I've sort of relaxed a bit and somehow managed to stop me being sort of so psycho about it it has in my experience helped hugely because i think you're maybe they're not giving off this sort of these waves yeah um yeah exactly i'm here i'm single i'm definitely not on a band um so it's such an annoying phrase it always happens when you least expect it um but i in my experience it's kind of true you know what me and i know some of my girlfriends do is if someone's having a party they've got a facebook event for it like go on the event and see who's clicked it and click on all the men try my cat if they've got girlfriends or it is if someone's having a party and they've got a Facebook event for it, like go on the event and see who's clicked it and click on all the men, try and work out if they've got girlfriends or not,

see if there's any potential targets. I mean, 100%. Yeah. Just being efficient, if anything. Yeah, absolutely. You know, you know who to look out for

so you can stuff them out in advance. Give them a store. Go up to them and be like, oh, I've seen you on Facebook. Yeah, exactly. How was your sister's holiday? And I'd be like, so let's talk about this endorsement on your LinkedIn.

It's literally me. We joke, but that's literally what Rachel does. We've spoken about this before. Did you do that on your date in the park the other night? Absolutely. I was like, so what did you study at uni? Of course I knew. I knew everything.

But I acted cool. I don't know, maybe he saw through it. Maybe that was what went wrong but um what was actually progress for me was when i told one of my friends i was going to go out with this guy she facebook stalked him i was like i have a mutual friend do you want me to ask her what he's like and i was like no i'm going to find out for myself which is progress that is progress i'm proud of you well done thank you my favorite thing ever on this topic just quickly because it's relevant to this whole discussion,

is there was someone, a friend's father, didn't realise that LinkedIn, I'm not on LinkedIn, but sometimes you can tell, right? You have to have it in private mode. So this friend of mine had been on a few dates with someone and on the sort of third or fourth date,

he turned around and he said, who is like so-and-so, so-and-so? And she was like, oh, he's my dad. Why? Because he's looked at my profile like 115 times in the past week or so. Oh, no. Oh, my God. You've got to be careful.

That's so funny. Quite cute, the dad in a way. But I mean, just, yeah. He needs to learn about private mode. Too much. It's funny that LinkedIn has that feature. Imagine if you had that on Instagram. I mean.

I would die. Oh, my God. I would actually die. We'd all just give just give it up no but i do actually wonder just on that subject there are funny algorithms with instagram when you look in the search things and when you look at when you look at who's viewed your story yeah there are some people that always appear near the yeah it's really creepy that the stories thing i'm never sure about i swear it's where i swear it's to encourage us to be more sort of psychotic about it yeah yeah the trouble is instagram doesn't forget like who you fancied like a month for a really long no no a month like a really long time ago so if you put

in the first letter of someone's name up they pop and you can be in front of someone else and be like no yeah you're like i'm trying to get over you exactly and you can't delete you can clear i know about this you can clear search history but it still remembers somehow and what you have to be careful of is if you're searching someone because you want to like stalk their profile sometimes you like search them in and then they come up and you go to like click on their profile but you accidentally click their stories yeah i've done that and then you view their stories like no they're gonna see this instagram's turning us all into lunatics yeah i think it really is but i mean i suppose at least most of us are doing it

if there's any comfort a grain of comfort absolutely yeah it's to be expected and on that note we are all psycho hopefully listening to this has actually given you some comfort

in your psycho ways we're all there you're not alone thank you to everyone for listening today. It's been absolutely delightful. What a fun chat it's been. Please do subscribe to Millennial Love.

Rate us. Review us. Tell your friends. We would absolutely love it. And you can DM us your dating disasters or dilemmas on Instagram

at our lovely, beautiful account, which Rachel does such a good job with, at Millennial Love. Thanks, babe. I try. I'm not the hottest on social media I mean do you try I try um in my own special way um if you don't want to follow us on our main accounts yes you can follow Rachel on her personal

accounts see her shoes see her sparkly shoes oh yes do please give me a like on my shoes I'm really excited about them Rachel Hosey one noy1? No, no. Just RachelHosey. Rachel underscore Hosey. Sorry, sorry. You know this. But RachelHosey1 is not going to get a lot of traffic. I'm just really sorry, RachelHosey1. Good for her.

My Instagram account is very subpar. It is at OliviaPetter8. And if you would like to email us, it's just Millennial.Love at Independent.co.uk. And any story you share with us will be kept anonymous. Yes, we also have a Facebook group, facebook.com forward slash groups forward slash millennial dot love. Sophia, you have been fantastic.

Thank you. We have so loved having you on. I've loved coming here. Where can the listeners find you? Where can they get your wonderful book? They can find me on Sophia M. Cootes on Twitter and Instagram and my website, SophiaMoneyCootes.com and my book is out on

it's in hardback, it's on Kindle and the audio version as well. If you want to listen to me sort of cringe my way through the sex scenes I have to say it was in front of the sound engineer, poor guy quite early on there's a sex scene and it was like a Monday morning at like 10 o'clock we were straight into like a certain

scene. I could sort of sense the sound engineer in the booth cringing exactly so imagine and you just gotta I just thought

well I've got to brazen it out and do it so yeah if you want to listen to me reading them out to you then you can download

the audio version as well fun so many options thank you so much for listening guys thank you for being here everyone and have a great week

see you soon bye