Love Lives - #47 Why do we let the people we like treat us badly?

Episode Date: August 17, 2018

This week on Millennial Love we're joined by the brilliant young poet, producer and mental health ambassador Charly Cox to try to get to the bottom of why we let the people we like treat us like rubbi...sh.From emotional abuse to simply not replying to messages, we're all guilty of putting up with poor behaviour from someone we fancy even though we know we deserve much better. So why are we like this and what can we do about it?Follow us on Instagram to stay up-to-date! https://www.instagram.com/millennial_loveSupport this show http://supporter.acast.com/millenniallove. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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Starting point is 00:00:37 Hello and welcome to Millennial Love, the Independent Lifestyle Desk's weekly podcast on love, dating and relationships. Hosted by me, Olivia Petter, Lifestyle Desk's weekly podcast on love, dating and relationships hosted by me, Olivia Petter, lifestyle writer and me, Rachel Hosey, assistant lifestyle editor. Dating today is a world away from what it was even just 10 years ago. With dating apps, millennials are finding it harder to meet people than ever before. And even when we do, who's to say we won't be ghosted, breadcrumbed or zombied. So that's why we decided to launch Millennial Love as two longtime singletons in their 20s, talking candidly about all of the things everyone is doing but not always willing to admit. Today we are super excited to welcome poet, producer and mental health ambassador, Charlie Cox.
Starting point is 00:01:15 Hello. Hi, Charlie. Hi. Thanks for joining us. Hey, my pleasure. So, Livvy and I are huge fans of your poems, but I think it would be good, in case anyone doesn't know you, if you could introduce yourself and explain a little bit how you got into poetry and what you're up to now. Sure, that's always so much pressure. You can do it. You know the answers. Yeah, I think I should really be solid on this one, shouldn't I? Somehow, I'm not.
Starting point is 00:01:43 I am a poet and producer I got into poetry maybe maybe like 10 years ago now and how old are you now 23 wow so you started at 13 I was I was a small child and just never told anyone I was so embarrassed that that was my idea of fun or that was a hobby like just gonna keep this in my diary and never show anyone and never talk about it and then a really wonderful thing happened when I was about 18 or 19 and I discovered wine and so it's always a wonderful thing it's a really wonderful time when you're like red wine who knew and would stand on my side of my friend's sofa and read poems at them whether they wanted to hear them or not and eventually they're like just can you do something with this like this is so
Starting point is 00:02:32 silly that you only ever do this when you're drunk or you think that it's really write them or read them read them so I was like oh yeah maybe it's's quite embarrassing and very personal. And then a year and a half ago, I put them on Instagram. And it's done all right since. Well, yeah, it has. Your book, we absolutely adore. When did it come out, the book? A month ago now. Oh, so this is brand new.
Starting point is 00:02:57 Yeah. It's very exciting. I know. How, I mean, we can talk about this a bit later, but how much of the poetry... Oh, wait, we should also say the name of the book, for anyone who wants to know, is She Must Be Mad. Yes.
Starting point is 00:03:08 That's right, isn't it? Yes. And she is. Absolutely. The best ones are. The best ones are, I was going to say. So I was going to ask how much of your personal life influences your poetry, because you read those poems and they feel deeply personal,
Starting point is 00:03:22 particularly the ones about love. read those poems and they feel deeply personal particularly the ones about love and but one of my favorite ones is actually uh the one where it says um not everything I write is about you which I also love because I I write songs sometimes and I know that you know I they're inspired by certain encounters and certain people but I'm a bit of a fantasist and I like to make things up so I wonder if you're the same yeah absolutely I mean the whole the whole book is very someone used the word exposing the other week oh god I made a terrible mistake it is very honest it's very personal it is all everything in there is true and very much about things that have happened to me about my life about my love life so much of it I've really shot myself in the foot no one is ever going to want to marry me I mean
Starting point is 00:04:09 we feel the same I mean yes preaching to the choir over here look at what we're doing every week air our dirty laundry like every week yeah but it's really funny because so I've had so many failed relationships off the back of boys being frightened that I would write about them so interesting it's a really basic equation where if you're not horrible to me then I probably won't write a poem about you
Starting point is 00:04:35 or if they're nice to you then you get a nice poem who thought who knew what's quite interesting is obviously if you write like a memoir, then you might name people and there's lots more, you know, details put into your stories. But if in a poem, you know, there's always intrigue and like,
Starting point is 00:04:55 oh, is that talking about, do you get people going up to you going, oh my God, is that poem about so-and-so? Yeah, the first time I did a poetry performance, I pre-faced one of the poems with, and this was about one really awful date and went into detail about it. And six of my friends were stood at the back with my mum and they all went, oh, we hate him.
Starting point is 00:05:16 I knew exactly who it was going to be about as soon as I read it. Yeah, I think there were a lot of nervous people that are picking it up and flicking through. But I did out of grace and courtesy a month before it went to finish copy I got in touch with four guys and said look this might sound familiar to you I just wanted to warn you that this is going in the book your name obviously isn't on it but I didn't want you to think that i'd used you as fodder or that's very nice courtesy of you um and like three were flattered one didn't reply
Starting point is 00:05:52 i think it's really good though because i i mean i would hope that those boys would read the poems that are about them because it would help make them realize they all have egos as well yeah they do they'd probably want to see themselves in print first of all but also i'm sure they'd benefit from seeing christ i actually really hurt this girl or this these are the consequences of my actions like that's a healthy thing like there are some things that you just can't say directly to a person but putting it into art whether it's songs or poetry i mean obviously a lot of guys might read it and be like oh yeah whatever but you would hope that you know yeah I've had a really astounding response there was one um guy in particular he was like god I was really awful to you and I'm so sorry wow I should have shown you this poem two years ago when I couldn't get out of my bed because I was so sad but it is it is funny how
Starting point is 00:06:43 people latch up I think because poetry is so I don't know when you think of poetry you think of it being like a really soft lovely sort of like little vignette of feelings and emotions and that seems so much nicer to give to someone to try and unravel than the hard solid truth yeah writing someone a love poem or something but you know it's not what it's like and I think I love what you do because I think people often associate poetry with old stuffy like things that they make you learn in school and it seems like it's not relevant to modern day life and you show that it is and speaking of which we would love you to read one of your poems that we think you know gives a good taste of what you do and we actually
Starting point is 00:07:26 quite a lot of us spoke to us and because we you know there's so many about love and dating and yeah we thought we would ask you to read she moves in her own way i can do that try and stop me okay this is an exclusive kind of maybe i don't know. Short, short. Yes, yes it is. Okay. You ready? We're ready. This is very, very intimate. I know, private reading. It was sticky in your apartment. I stuck my eyes to every corner,
Starting point is 00:07:54 where you'd stuck up old postcards. An entire museum of your life and more a window. Frame the shrilling stuck-up summer silhouettes in the pub down below. You stuck a scratched record on that played the once-smooth staccato. You poured me a glass of wine that slipped sticky to my sides, that slipped your fingers across my thighs. I felt stuck.
Starting point is 00:08:14 This time I promised myself I wasn't giving up. You said, stick around, and I cleared off the dark sediment red wine muck from my lips and kissed you in a way that begged to reverse ownership but instead it's sellotape my wrist tight together around your hips whilst my internal monologue screamed you're hopeless at this you don't want to do this you always do this you don't have to be this person you don't have to quench your thirst on him tell your body it's anxiety isn't a passion to burst on him don't try and fill the void with empty consumption. This moment in time that you'll lie and say was sweet seduction was just another episode of you
Starting point is 00:08:51 orchestrating a personality reduction into a girl you have no business being, no pleasing being. Stop teasing feeling from an inner drought that only dried to be that way because you gave all of your kindness out instead of spending it on yourself. I stop as your eyes unstuck from mine you swig from the bottle of wine and I muster up the courage to say I don't want to be just tonight. I've said it before and let it be denied and you laugh with a cocksure sigh and hit me with another line like why can't you just be a girl for a good time and it's the just that juts and ricochets and it's slap-stuck to my ongoing conflict with myself. I reach for a souvenir placed on your shelf, throw it between my palms. Imagine what false comfort I'd find
Starting point is 00:09:33 within your arms and put it back. I give learning from lesson a crack. I stop myself from telling you that you're such a... when you text me in the next morning to say my excuse as a woman is appalling for leaving in a rush it was sticky in your apartment and it was there that I realized I was bored of being stuck as a girl whose muchness amounted to just the night I love it so much it's so good it's so good it's so good there are so many lines that I love one in particular I think is the one where you say you you kiss them desperately trying to reverse ownership I love that because I feel like that's I mean correct me if I'm wrong but I feel like that kind of
Starting point is 00:10:16 describes when you feel like you're more into that person than they are into you and you're desperately trying to switch that around so that you feel like you're in control it's so hard it's so hard I find myself in that situation more often than not yeah me too yeah particularly in that moment I just remember thinking if I can kiss you in a certain way then maybe I'll be the strong confident one that's calling the shots with what happens next and then instead you know you go to do it and then I completely melted away I was like I'm too scared I can't do this maybe maybe you are in control which is so dumb and by the end of that night I realized that so much of what I was doing and how I was behaving was really bad and I wasn't being kind to myself I really wasn't
Starting point is 00:11:02 listening you know you can consent to someone but you also have to consent to yourself and I wasn't being kind to myself. I really wasn't listening. You know, you can consent to someone, but you also have to consent to yourself. And I didn't realize that. I was never consenting to how I really felt. That's so interesting. I think there are so many parts of that that are really relatable. For me, it's kind of,
Starting point is 00:11:18 one of the levels is this idea of feeling like you need to be the cool girl, the good time girl the chill girl and there's that other part of maybe you don't actually want to sleep with this person or stay over with this person but you're there now and so you feel like you have to and do you it's so messed up I can't like I I can't remember really a single situation where I have been single and I've been dating where I felt comfortable owning my own actions with how a night ends because you almost feel as though you're made to feel and that's not necessarily
Starting point is 00:11:59 from the other person but through like years of entrenched like awful bad learning that you owe someone something or you know you're you've led someone on or if you're here then this means this or and so then it just becomes so much easier to go with something instead of working out your own internal battle and then being fearful of the response of somebody else yeah yeah that just sounds so much trickier than going like okay fine I'll just stay I guess I'll just stay here then shall I if you really like someone your almost gut reaction is to just be submissive in every situation just to be like I'm so easy going yeah well we're gonna sort of get into that into our main discussion topic today but before we do let's have dating debrief
Starting point is 00:12:46 time well do i have a story for you oh it's a good story this one i've heard it okay so we did an episode last week on holiday romances and i i didn't tell this story um but i will tell the story so i went on a girl's trip to france and we thought you know the boys aren't here this time because we did it last year with guys and this was just girls less people there were like seven of us or six of us and um we're like you know it's gonna be super chilled we'll just have some nice drinks and go out on a couple of evenings anyway we went out one night in um the south of France and I came back with a boy, a French boy. Scandalous.
Starting point is 00:13:27 Who was four years younger than me. And we get back to the house. Also very fit. I've seen pictures. Yeah, he's a model. Also not usually my type. Anyway, we then get back to the house and all of the girls are stranded outside the house. No one can get in.
Starting point is 00:13:43 Pretty sure they were also all topless as well. I don't know why. There was just something very feral about this holiday, like being with all of the girls are stranded outside the house. No one can get in. Pretty sure they were also all topless as well. I don't know why. There was just something very feral about this holiday, like being with all of your closest friends. Like we were just all like naked the whole time. So it was just a very weird situation. You're painting such a fabulous picture right now. I feel like any sort of straight men listening to this
Starting point is 00:13:56 are going to be like having hot flushes on their cheeks. I was clothed. I was clothed. My friends definitely weren't. Sure, sure. So then all of the girls are stuck. I was like, guys, what's going on, why can't we get into the house?
Starting point is 00:14:06 And we had the key, but the key was broken somehow, like it was a really old French door, so we just couldn't get in. Meanwhile, the girl who owns the house was with a guy at his house, so it wasn't there, so we were like, what are we gonna do? Anyway, somehow, it's like five in the morning as well, we're all so drunk um and you can just imagine like drunk girls trying like oh i can't do it you do it no i can't do it i'm just me every morning just trying to
Starting point is 00:14:37 double lock my front door yeah we were so incoherent anyway we managed to get into like one section of the house like downstairs that isn't connected to the rest of it but there were like sofas and two beds so we'd all just slept there woke up the next morning my friend comes back um we're all still trying to get in still drunk still here french boy is still here at this point wondering like what the hell am i doing with all these crazy naked ladies um and i think yeah i think he was wondering anything at that time i think he was like anyway he then um we basically figured out we need to smash open a window to get into the house so this guy goes and gets this ladder it's like a seven or eight foot long ladder um carries it i don't know how because we tried to move it down the day after and it was so heavy
Starting point is 00:15:24 just does it all on his own flings it up against the side of the house climbs up like spider-man with a rock smashes a rock through the window unhooks the window gets into the to the bathroom then has to lock unlock the bathroom door because it's locked from the outside i had to like break into it so like move these panels i don't actually know how he did it move these glass panels that were in the door to like get his hand through and unhook it anyway he did it he unlocked it he opened the door and the six naked girls are like oh my god you're a hero meanwhile i'm thinking oh my god this poor guy got so much more than he bargained for last night he's probably really regretting meeting us. And he's been married ever since.
Starting point is 00:16:08 Yeah, and now we're getting married. No, it was just, yeah, it was a very bizarre set of circumstances. And then he ended up hanging around the next day until like 4pm. And it was just a weird situation. I was like, what are we doing here? Like, we're 24 years old. How is this happening right now? It's so random.
Starting point is 00:16:25 I love it. But I wish one of you guys, the girls, had like been the one to go up with the ladder. So do I. I know. I just didn't have the strength.
Starting point is 00:16:34 Why do you need a stupid man to do it? I was still drunk. I don't know. Health and safety. Yeah. Not getting on a ladder. I suppose. I agree though.
Starting point is 00:16:42 The feminist inside me was like, I can break into the house myself. Exactly. But I didn't. I just brought the boy home. That's nice. Well, at least you contributed something useful to the night and the morning.
Starting point is 00:16:54 Yes. The next day. How's your life, Rachel? Oh, great. I haven't been up to any dramatic antics like that, but I have fallen in love with Mamma Mia 2 the film oh my god
Starting point is 00:17:07 I'm so obsessed but actually what I'm mostly in love with is the character of young Bill I am so in love with him
Starting point is 00:17:13 and if you've seen the film which I've seen twice and I've been listening to the soundtrack non-stop since I saw it there's this one scene where Lily James
Starting point is 00:17:21 characters on the boat with him and literally all I feel like I want in my life right now is to be on a boat with young Bill however on a more serious note I will say I actually I think this film is so brilliant because actually it's about being sexually free and
Starting point is 00:17:34 liberated as a woman and having fun it's about like women raising their babies single moms and not needing a man and I think it actually sends like a really lovely message as well as the fact that it's just like like bloody awesome tunes like a fantastic cast it's very uplifting film could not recommend more i need to go and see it i haven't seen it guys i'll come with you i'll see you again well i'm just saying it's called Here We Go Again, so I will keep going again. And again. And again. Absolutely. So, today, guys, we're going to talk about... Wait a minute. We have a bio of the week. Oh, my gosh.
Starting point is 00:18:13 We do have a bio of the week. We have a bio of the week. I'm so sorry. I was so distracted by the thoughts about young Bill that I forgot. Yeah, so bio of the week is from a man called John. John is 27, and his bio reads, Body type. Works out but lifts down the street from a Colombian bakery.
Starting point is 00:18:32 Backpacked once. I thought that was so cute. Wait, hold on. Wait. Works out but lifts down the street from a Colombian bakery. I don't get it. So he goes to the gym but... Also goes to the bakery. But eats a lot of bread. I don't get it So It's like So he goes to the gym
Starting point is 00:18:46 But Also goes to the bakery But eats a lot of bread Like that's like a funny Lol line Okay got it got it What do they serve In a Colombian bakery though
Starting point is 00:18:52 Doesn't matter It's a bakery Okay sorry Maybe we should go Yeah I would Well I just didn't know That Colombia was renowned
Starting point is 00:18:58 For it's baked goods Coffee and chocolate And cocaine It's a bakery There's gonna be delicious Baked It's a Colombian bakery Cocaine cookies Cocaine cookies Guys Thank god you're here Charlie coffee and chocolate and cocaine bakery there's gonna be delicious colombian cocaine cookies thank god you're here charlie i mean really missing the point of this what i'm saying is this is quite a lol line and i quite like it
Starting point is 00:19:16 because it's a bit more down to earth because you see a lot of guys who are just like jim is my life and he's like work out but also colombian bakery and i'm like very much board with this. And then I also think it's quite funny how he's done the backpack once because so many guys on dating apps and probably guys too are like, I'm just a free spirited traveler and I make backpacking all the time. Here I am with a doped up tiger and my singer beer wife beater. Exactly. We've seen that so many times. And he's like backpack once. Quite frankly, I might steal this from myself. I mean, I don't live down the street from a Colombian bakery, but. Have you backpacked once?
Starting point is 00:19:48 Yes. Have you? Yes. Where'd you go? Southeast Asia. Did you? That's such a cliche, but I didn't do the classic route.
Starting point is 00:19:56 I did a slightly, I went to different countries. I'll have you know. Oh my God, you're so alternative. Proud of you. Thanks guys. Thanks so much.
Starting point is 00:20:04 So, as I said about two minutes ago we're gonna talk about why we let people people we like treat us like rubbish because this happens i see it with myself i see it with all my friends both men and women people who can be like super strong super independent super don't let anyone walk over them don't let anyone treat them badly then they like People who can be like super strong, super independent, super don't let anyone walk over them, don't let anyone treat them badly, then they like someone. Sometimes it's even just a crush.
Starting point is 00:20:32 It's not like they've fallen in love, but they let that person treat them like an awful human being, give them not the time of day, not message them, like do all these things that just, they know that they deserve to be treated better and they would tell any of their friends what are you doing get out of there you deserve so much better but why can't we see it when it's ourselves it's so horrible and hard isn't it i i feel like it's maybe my hobby is to engage in any sort of relationship where I think someone might mistreat me because it gives you validation on all of the negative things that you already think about yourself so it's like a weird like masochistic comfort like I think that's I think that's where mine comes from if I was to
Starting point is 00:21:19 psychoanalyze myself like I think I'm like fat and boring and ugly so if a guy is like yeah you are fat and boring and ugly I'm like oh okay good like I just wanted to make sure we're all on the same page with that which is nonsense no I know what you mean though it and it almost I've had guys before like exacerbate these like really deep insecurities that I didn't he didn't even know really deep insecurities that i didn't he didn't even know existed it's like negging there's like some totally deluded supposed strategy for guys to pick up women by like negging them where it's like when you give them a really backhanded compliment i don't know i'm trying to think of an example now but it's like they might be like oh your hair's a really nice style have you ever thought about like dying at brunette, though?
Starting point is 00:22:06 Or something like that. I think it's almost even more subtle than that. I've had guys, the things that have ruminated in my head that have made me feel terrible about myself, I've had guys say to me, oh, I think you're really hot and funny, but I don't want to see you anymore. And that really, really affected me
Starting point is 00:22:22 because, yeah, okay, that's a compliment in one sense. But for me, all I hear in that is, I think you're superficial. I don't think you're intelligent. I don't think you're interesting. I don't think, you know, you're as intelligent as I am. I just hear the negatives. And also that hot and funny still isn't good enough. Exactly.
Starting point is 00:22:41 When we're constantly being told that you should be hot and funny and that's how you get a guy and he's still i don't like him glad he's not around anymore he was he was one of the ones that deluded me and made me keep going back being like oh no but i it's it you're right it is masochistic you just we we know that we're not being treated well and we hear our friends telling us he's awful what are you doing like you're so much better than him and i want to you know reiterate that this obviously isn't just about men i'm sure that women do this too but it's it's we just keep going back for more it's almost it's like self-harm in a way but you know it's so interesting charlie you were saying that you sometimes think you go for guys that
Starting point is 00:23:19 on some level you know aren't going to treat you right. I never do that. I never like, I never like go, when I start seeing a guy think like, oh, he seems like the type of guy who's going to treat me badly, but I don't care, I like him anyway. I like, I always think they're going to be good and decent. I've, yeah, I think young Charlie, young Charlie,
Starting point is 00:23:44 would see danger or I think so much of it comes into having really poor mental health and suffering with a mental illness where I only really knew sadness and I only really knew what that was but was so embarrassed to talk about it because it was embarrassing to be like I've got depression or I've got anxiety or but then if it was like a bad breakup or a guy that you could see was being a negative influence I'd be like oh it's just because I'm in this awful relationship I see and that felt like an okay mask now yeah now I don't deliberately like pick out guys once you're like you look like you could make me cry you know they're the worst ones now are the ones
Starting point is 00:24:25 that like god you used to date such awful men like how did you do that and then they come in with this facade that they're not going to be awful but through that think they then have the agency to do awful things because it's not quite as bad yeah what they think other men have done to you that's what i was going to say is i I actually think the really difficult treatment to deal with is not necessarily... Because there are major things that someone can do that treat you badly, which are absolutely horrific. Things like domestic abuse,
Starting point is 00:24:53 things like very obvious gaslighting, where they manipulate you to doubt your own... Yeah, let's just pause and talk about gaslighting for a sec, actually. Because there's something that did come up in Love Island after Adam and Rosieie had a thing anyway and um there was a women's women's aid women's aid um sort of put out a warning saying that this incident was showcasing signs that pointed towards you know emotional abuse and manipulation and then people were talking about gaslighting, which is basically where you manipulate someone to doubt their own sense of reality.
Starting point is 00:25:27 And it's emotional abuse. Yeah, it's saying things like, well, you're making that up. And yeah, making someone doubt what they perceive to have happened. And I think those are pretty major things like things like slut shaming, body shaming. But I think it's the really minor things that keep you coming back to someone for more yeah yeah and I actually do think that on some level we are attracted to people who we deem exciting in some capacity and the fact of the matter is that if they sort of aren't replying to your messages or this you know so so often i see my friends and
Starting point is 00:26:06 myself as well will sort of be dating someone it's in the early stages and you're like when you're with them you're like oh my god we got on so well this is so great but then they mess you around so much because then they don't message you for five days and they like but then they'll like give you all these mixed signals and all this stuff that's messing you around. And you're like, yeah, it's not right. I deserve to be treated better. Then you do ultimately meet up and you're like, oh, but you know, I just really like it when I'm with them. And you're like, it's so common.
Starting point is 00:26:34 And it's like, but they're not treating you right. Twas the season of chaos and all through the house, not one person was stressing. Holla differently this year with DoorDash. Don't want to holla do the most? Holla don't. More festive, less frantic. Get deals for every occasion with DoorDash. ACAST powers the world's best podcasts. Here's a show that we recommend. I'm Jessi Kirkshank and on my podcast Phone-A-Friend, I break down the biggest stories Here's a show that we recommend. I didn't even know what thirsty meant until there was all these headlines. And I get schooled by a tween. Facebook is like a no.
Starting point is 00:27:28 That's what my grandma's on. Thank God Phone a Friend with Jessie Crookshank is not available on Facebook. It's out now wherever you get your podcasts. Acast helps creators launch, grow, and monetize their podcasts. Everywhere. Acast.com I guess so much of it as well comes from as women, we're constantly told that we have to be liked. Oh, yeah.
Starting point is 00:27:58 You've got to be the likable, exactly. You know, the soft girl, the funny girl, the pretty girl. But ultimately, the soft girl the funny girl the pretty girl but ultimately the the nice girl yeah it's very dull like very very dull so then and there's also this idea that you're like don't be a nag yeah stressy exactly don't don't be like his mother don't you know and yeah and then so if you can find someone that likes you enough like oh okay maybe maybe I can do this maybe I can be a nice person but they like they like me and maybe I'm not a nice person so how do I keep up this act how do I keep up this facade and then anything you know any you know any form of like even the slightest form of emotional abuse is then like but I i can put up with that because they like me and
Starting point is 00:28:46 they're sticking around because they're dropping you breadcrumbs of interest and they're making me feel like i'm worthwhile exactly i can't believe kind of though just like kind of they're kind of making you feel worthwhile and because this is where like i hate it but that it everyone always says treat a mean keep them keen and like that's obviously like quite a stupid thing to do but the reason it in some way works is that it taps into the other person's insecurities yeah and it makes them feel insecure about how much they how much you like them which then makes them want you more and it's it's it's mind games it is mind games it's not healthy and it's like what i always say is that you need to remember that you deserve to be treated as a priority not an option but the the stupid thing is that humans seem to be hardwired that when it's just easy and you're
Starting point is 00:29:41 both like each other the same amount and everything's just that easy breezy and like great it's like this is fine but we sort of thrive on when it's not so easy and it's the drama and they're like do they like me do they not like me it's the game it's the chase and why are we like this i i i think sorry i just when you were saying that i was like you know what i think the reason why we're sort of taught to chase after people that maybe don't like us is because we think that it's going to be so much more gratifying when we do get them at the end and we're we're just unable to see like like you know they're not interested they're just messing you around it's the mixed signals but equally there's a part of you that's always subconsciously like no but when i do get them to come on a date with me or to ask me on a date or to, you know, whatever.
Starting point is 00:30:25 Fall madly in love with me. Yeah, they're going to fall madly in love with me. And I'm like, yes, I did this amazing achievement. It's weird, isn't it? I think there's so much of that comes from literature and film and songs. And, you know, we are fed so much rubbish from such a young age of what that's going to look like and you know if you just hang about or if you just stay quiet or you know you keep chasing like then you'll have this most like the most amazing anecdote to tell your kids in 10 years to come or you know like that's going
Starting point is 00:30:57 to be that magic moment when you do your wedding speech like and you remember when I was a psycho for three months and everyone was like what is she doing but I knew what I was doing that doesn't happen doesn't happen also it makes you sound like completely bonkers if you're like oh no but I texted you loads and then you eventually caved like that's not how you want your narrative to be it's not fair no because it then also and I think women in this situation from personal experiences it's always you that's the crazy one. Yeah. Or, you know, it's you that has driven.
Starting point is 00:31:29 I had, in fact, I had a conversation with my dad about this this morning on the phone. I have entered a, I have a not boyfriend currently. Ah, I see. Classic not boyfriend. Someone you're seeing. A not boyfriend that obviously doesn't live in this country. Oh, man. Summer romance.
Starting point is 00:31:44 Now I'm'm no idea what's going on anyway so I said to my dad I was like dad look really don't want to mess this one up give me your like most brutal male advice last you went to your dad I mean it's really cute we we've never had this relationship before but so it's like a new one where I'm like look I need you help me um and he was like yeah yeah just ignore him don't like don't text him he's like maybe he doesn't maybe doesn't even like you no I mean yes I asked for brutal advice but and then I had to explain to him why that was so unhealthy and damaging and like why can't as two consensual adults that clearly have feelings
Starting point is 00:32:26 for each other just be like I like you yeah I like you too cool done I know why is that so hard um I don't know I'm literally I have the same situation as well I've been in that situation so many times where it's like you know two people like each other but then you just sort of fall off the radar with like communication but there's no obvious reason as to why it's just like it was going well and then i don't know someone goes away and then there are mixed signals treating you badly no it's not mutually fizzling it's not but then but how do you know if it's mutually fizzling or not i feel like you almost need the cutoff point to be like do you like me or not but obviously no one ever wants to say that then you get told like as a woman like if you say like look do you
Starting point is 00:33:09 like me or not then you're gonna scare him away exactly yeah why are we always why are we the ones that are scaring them away it's like actually you're hurting my feelings like you're upsetting me you're putting me in a real place of jeopardy where i either need to know if i'm getting on with my life or i'm moving forward with you. Yeah. It does go both ways as well, though. Like, I've definitely advised male friends to be like, maybe just like, when they're like pursuing a woman they like. And sometimes I'll be like, maybe just like, chill out a little bit.
Starting point is 00:33:37 Because if you're like this keen, it might put her off. Yeah, I have too. And you know, it is a double standard. Because if guys are too keen with me, I'm instantly put off. Oh, really? I love that. Do you? It depends. If I like them. If I like them back, sure have too. And you know, it is a double standard because if guys are too keen with me, I'm instantly put off. Oh really, I love that. Do you? It depends if I like them. If I like them back, sure.
Starting point is 00:33:49 Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, but I never do if they like me. It just depends. And like, it's so funny. I think perceptions of women in romance, like yes, you obviously get like the crazy guy as well, but I do think the crazy woman is much more problematic and prevalent.
Starting point is 00:34:02 And I remember talking to a guy I was seeing once and we were talking about exes. And he was like, like yeah I had this ex and she was she was just really angry that's all he said about her and my and I felt like such a bad person my first reaction was like okay don't be angry never be angry I bet how awful is that I instantly take that as like you know instructions to get this guy to like me I know know, I know. But it's difficult when you're dating because you want, you're trying to put forward this best version of yourself
Starting point is 00:34:29 or the version of yourself that's going to make them most like you. And it's really hard. It's really hard. I have so many times actually, like kind of let myself be treated badly by guys and then not really done anything about it at the time until it ended for whatever reason and then it's been months later and I've seen them at a party
Starting point is 00:34:52 or something because I seem to end up still like weirdly friends or at least in vague social cycles with guys I've dated lol I need to expand my social cycles and then come on in with me I need a new pool anyway what I'm saying is it's always been like months later I've seen these guys again and then like in a slightly alcohol induced confidence like told them had a massive go at them and told them how badly they treated me
Starting point is 00:35:19 and like we slept together and then you didn't message me for five days and like you know really had to get them and then they've always been like oh my god yeah like wow i'm so sorry for messing you around you're so right and i'm like yes yes i am but i never i never confronted them about it at the time when i was in it because i don't know you We tolerate it. We just tolerate it because we're too scared of being rejected. Yeah, and I hate it when it can make you feel so insecure. It's something as simple as a person you like not messaging you.
Starting point is 00:35:58 You know, a friend recently was freaking out because she'd been like two days with this guy and it was going really well. But then she messaged one night, an evening and then it got to like lunchtime the next day and they'd been like you know messaging quite quickly and he hadn't replied and she was like i swear to god if one more man ghosts me i'm gonna throw myself out this building and like you know it it messes with your head and she was like getting so wound up about it just because he hadn't messaged back and like she's not crazy of course she's not crazy she just likes him yeah and then you can't help but think the worst when you've been ghosted so many times and like been sent really mixed signals and then when you really like someone you get so cynical about it and you're like he's gonna ghost
Starting point is 00:36:42 me because it happens and then it it feels awful. Oh, exactly. And then that's where you start to reduce yourself down to a much more basic being and a basic form of like, okay, well, I know from previous relationships where I've been ghosted, it could have been because I was too full on or I was crazy or was I being a psycho over this. It's awful. All of this horrid terminology um so then when someone even shows like the slightest sign when they're probably actually just busy you go into a compelling meltdown of i'm not good enough again yeah yeah and it's it's awful actually because what we should be saying to ourselves is what our friends are saying to us which is like
Starting point is 00:37:24 well if they ghost you they're a terrible human and you don't want to be with them and you deserve so much better. But it's really hard to tell that to yourself and make you believe it. You know, I've had it before when I've dated a guy and they've ended it with me. And like on one level, I've briefly thought like, oh, I wonder if I could like ask for feedback and be like, what do I need to work on? I love doing that.
Starting point is 00:37:42 And I'm like, no, no, no, I don't need to work on anything. I need to just find someone who likes me as I am, right? Right? Right? Am I right, ladies? Or should I, should I? What do I? No, it should we be thinking like,
Starting point is 00:37:53 oh, what can I work on so they don't treat me badly or something? Or? My biggest breakthrough and as a piece of advice that I give to my friends before a first date and it completely changed the way that I looked at dating and how people felt about me is before a first date I would always be so nervous like am I going to be funny enough are they going to find me attractive what if they don't fancy me what if I'm not that I don't come across as intelligent what if I do this and then would get there and be such a wreck and just sit there as a shell like hello my name's charlie i'll have the cheapest
Starting point is 00:38:25 wine thanks i don't know if we're gonna split the bill or not um and and it was always horrible but now when i walk into a dating situation like you actually have to impress me yes like it's not that's what my mom always tells me they have to impress you they have to excite you they you know in the same way that you're so you know built and wired to feel like you have to be the impressive shiny object at the table so do they but you know what it goes the other way in that I've been the other person who's been a bit too arrogant and like I've gone into dates thinking like my god I really hope I actually like this one and then come out of it being like oh my god I really like them oh my god
Starting point is 00:39:06 this never happens and then they didn't like me and I'm like what what how joking not how no but how no but seriously how have you met me I'm looking at you right now thinking how thank you um guys okay what obviously it's so hard because we're all still learning how to do this and I don't know if anyone is ever fully an expert in this but what can we do what do you think we all need to do men and women to try and
Starting point is 00:39:34 not let people treat us badly in relationships and dating I think it comes down a lot to trying to remember that, like, in a few weeks, if this has not continued, or like a few months, you're probably not even going to think about it very much anymore. You know, if you think it's going towards its end, then if you try and and remove yourself as if you're looking back on it. Yeah, I think that's a good idea. Obviously, much easier said than done.
Starting point is 00:40:13 Everything's much easier said than done. I think, to be honest, if you ever find yourself in a situation with a guy or a girl where you feel like you're putting on a show, where you feel like you have to manipulate them to like you like yeah but the early stages of dating you're always putting on a show like putting on your best yeah but yeah but you know the early stages of dating could be a few weeks could be a few months like it could in any situation really um if you're not boyfriend and girlfriend i think until you reach that point you're always if you feel like you have to be this certain type of person who you're not yeah
Starting point is 00:40:44 they're not the right person for you you should all of this stuff that we talk about it should just happen subconsciously like you should just get on really well on the first date and not be worrying about am i being funny enough what's that joke too weird or you know is this dress too short oh god what if he doesn't like my shoes you know like i think it's it's remembering that a your happiness and health is a priority always in any situation whether that's you know your work life or your dating life um or your whatever part of your personal life but also you know we're so entrenched in this idea of like no pain no gain no good situation is painful and if you're experiencing
Starting point is 00:41:25 pain in something that's supposed to be this like the exciting throes of like new love or fancying someone and you're finding yourself feeling that awful and that disgusting it's absolutely not right yeah and it's not going to get any better you don't break a pain threshold with dating like there is no threshold you just have to walk away from it. Yeah, I completely agree with that. I think that's a really good one. If you are being made to feel insecure about yourself because of the way someone's treating you,
Starting point is 00:41:57 not the one. No. And I also just thought of one more, which I kind of touched on earlier. But what would you tell, ask yourself what you would tell your friends if they were in your situation and listen to yourself okay great time guys um a few minutes left for
Starting point is 00:42:13 a dating dilemma let's do it thank you for sending this one in here goes hi guys i'm wondering if you can help me i moved to london in february after two amazing years living and loving in New York. I suffer with my mental health with problems coming and going over the last seven years from the age of 18. Since moving to London my anxiety and depression has spiked to the point that I'm now seeking help. God this sounds ridiculous as I write it as I'm generally a happy sociable functioning person and this has really knocked the wind out of me. This mental health cocktail is making me feel like a different person. I used to love dating, having casual sex, spontaneous nights out and I even liked the horrible dates I had from apps as they were the funny stories. And now I
Starting point is 00:42:55 don't know if it's a byproduct of the anxiety or the depression or the loneliness or if it's the fact that I've been single for such a long time, seven years, but I now feel like I want to be with someone. I've had short-lived things with several guys over the years, some fun and some heart-wrenchingly unfun, but I've always liked being single and enjoyed my life, only willing to add someone to it if they were really going to enhance it. I also have no single friends here that I can go through this with.
Starting point is 00:43:29 I'm trying to unteach myself that wanting to be with someone is weak and that I actually am worthy of love. The low self-esteem and confidence issues I'm having are leaving me in the dark. I've been on one date in the last 18 months and I have no idea how to approach my dating life now. Not only with my current mental state but also carrying the fact that I think I am truly ready to find someone. It's terrifying. I can't thank you enough for this podcast. I look forward to it every week. It reminds me that I am truly ready to find someone. It's terrifying. I can't thank you enough for this podcast. I look forward to it every week. It reminds me that I am not, in the words of Enid, Carrie's Vogue editor, the last single girl. Love that she referenced sex in this interview.
Starting point is 00:43:53 I mean, that's such a sweet ending. There's so much to unpack in this message. Oh, God, I hate it. It makes me sad that she's, you know, she said it sounds ridiculous to say that, you know, she was struggling with her mental health and she's a happy, soci she's you know she said it sounds ridiculous to say that you know she was struggling with her mental health and she's a happy sociable you know person but we all know that you know you can be really struggling with your mental health even if on the outside
Starting point is 00:44:15 you seem bubbly as anything um i think very difficult so i guess I'm kind of in a similar situation I'm the same age single for a very long time I'm you know I can't really relate to the mental health struggles but I completely agree with this idea of you know only wanting to be with someone if they're going to enhance your life but I also relate to the fact that she says when you've been single for so long you almost it kind of becomes part of your identity to be like i'm single i don't need a man and then actually you sort of almost feel like you can't say to yourself but i but i might like to find love and that's okay it's okay it's not weak it's not weak right no it's far like far from weak completely far from weak this you know it's the most basic innate human response is wanting to
Starting point is 00:45:13 find love or be loved or find comfort within that I would say it's so important to make to look after yourself enough that when you meet someone you know exactly like what we were just talking about with it's so difficult when you know if you are mistreated to know how much of that is you or how much is them or how you handle that and if your mental health isn't in a particularly good place it might be worth spending that time that you might spend on a date with someone else on yourself and really looking after yourself to a point where when you're through that, you know that you are in a really good headspace where there's no room for it to be codependent
Starting point is 00:45:57 or you're not finding someone to fix you. Because then it gets so much trickier and then you feel worse about it. And then, yeah, take some time for you you know there's plenty of dates there will be plenty of years plenty of time for tinder yeah but now sounds like a really good time to just sort of step back and also in that time work out what you really want yeah it's funny isn't it because i think when you're going through a hard time if you're single we are fed this idea that someone can fix you like if you're in it like you said like if you're in a relationship that person will fix you it's not the route to happiness guys no it's of course and it never works and it never works but it is also your it's sort of like your gut reaction like okay well
Starting point is 00:46:39 if i find someone they'll you know help me escape all of these other problems no they won't like you have to sort out your own issues first and prioritize your own health above any other person yeah because i'm not sure you're gonna go like have a healthy relationship no of course you're not because there'll be all these underlying issues that you're still battling until you're you know obviously no one's ever 100 okay all the time but until you're feeling you know comfortable with yourself comfortable in your own skin but fantastic that she's seeking help yeah amazing yeah and i get that maybe you feel like you know you want to just get things sorted so you're going to seek help and then you feel like okay then i want to meet guys i want to
Starting point is 00:47:19 go on dates i want to be in a relationship i want to find love and you feel like i want to do all this now i want to be proactive i want to get it sorted i want it done but i don't think it's as simple as that sadly you can't just be like okay i'm ready now for a relationship because sadly you can't just like buy one online no and you're putting too much pressure on whatever relationship that is you're expecting too much from it you're inevitably going to be disappointed I think when it comes to low self-esteem and confidence issues I completely understand how that makes you nervous to date whatever but I think like Charlie said that is something that will build up when you focus on yourself like maybe I don't know it sounds might sound kind of silly but I almost think taking up
Starting point is 00:48:06 a new hobby that's something just for yourself can make you feel really great like I recently joined a netball team and honestly it I'm like so so so happy with this decision like it's it's already like enhancing my life so much it's only just started and it's like being part of a new team and it's finding new activity and I don't know it's kind of just like something that can give you something new that's exciting and that's for you and will give you some sort of boost and i think you know you can work on self-esteem and confidence from all sorts of angles and you know things like that there's no quick fix it all takes time but I think because as well you're sort of you know aware of all these things that are on your mind and things will get
Starting point is 00:48:53 better because you're working on it yeah I mean as she said in her email you know she's seeking help she's being proactive and like if you it takes such strength and guts to seek any form of help it's so difficult it's so so difficult but it's arguably the most difficult part of all of it is accepting that you need to talk about it or that you need outside help so she's already at the peak of that mountain and now things I, I hope, will get a little better. But please focus on yourself and not on men. Yeah. Not yet, just not yet.
Starting point is 00:49:33 But also it's okay for your priorities to change. Like, you may have had seven years of, like, loving, having casual sex, whatever. And then you might be getting to the point where you're a bit over it. Like, that's okay. It doesn't mean, like, oh, now then you might be getting to the point where you're a bit over it. Like, that's okay. It doesn't mean, like, oh, now there's something wrong with me. I don't enjoy being single as much as I used to, or I don't enjoy, like, living this lifestyle as much as I used to. And that's okay.
Starting point is 00:49:54 It's actually fine. Yeah, I mean, I was just going to say, because people don't fit into boxes. Like, the way that you are in romantic relationships when you're 18 you know it's very different from the way that you are when you're 23 24 because you've gone through certain experiences that have shaped you and you know maybe when you were 18 you had a a bit more of a liberal approach to casual sex than you do now or vice versa you know you could have been really terrified of of anything like intimate when you're 18 when all your friends are you know quite the opposite and then that comes later in life when and then all your friends are like what are you doing
Starting point is 00:50:36 like it could be either way this happens with like so many things as well like with drinking when everyone was like all my friends were like 18 like going wild and i was like i don't like alcohol and then i was like just like bloomed so much later like in finally if you know everyone was like all my friends were like 18 like going wild and i was like i don't like alcohol and then i was like just like bloomed so much later like in final reunion i was like let's go out and i was like what are you talking about we have finals um so yeah don't try not to stress out about what your friends are doing just because your friends aren't single they'll probably break up to be honest and then they'll be single like that's gonna happen uh honestly it comes in waves i've noticed it in my friends anyway but good luck godspeed and you can do it
Starting point is 00:51:08 everything will be great keep fighting the good fight absolutely and we're so pleased you enjoy Millennial Love if you listener have also enjoyed Millennial Love this particular episode or just all of them please please please head to Apple Podcasts or wherever else
Starting point is 00:51:23 you get your podcasts and rate review and subscribe because it really helps us get into the charts and helps other people discover millennial love which is all we want really and you can also keep sending us your stories we love receiving them sorry as well yes sometimes a bit sir applying but we will always apply just sometimes slowly sorry we will I think it's honestly actually one of my favorite parts of doing the podcast is reading your guys stories and replying to them we always screenshot and send to each other yeah it's really it's really lovely and um so you can send them to us um at millennial underscore love on our instagram or you can email us at millennial.love at
Starting point is 00:51:57 independent.co.uk uh any story that you send us if we do read it would be kept anonymous of course um so please do send them or just any thoughts about anything we've spoken about exactly we love to hear your feedback as well if you have any ideas for topic anything you're going through that you want us to touch on please do send your thoughts to us yes please do charlie thank you so much for joining us today so much for having me this has been really really illuminating. I always feel like I learn. I feel a sense of growth. Yes, we grow, we learn, we overshare.
Starting point is 00:52:30 It's fantastic. Okay, where can everyone find you and all your wonderful work? They can find me on Instagram. It's probably the best one, which is at CharlieCox1. It's Charlie with an L-Y because I thought I'd make it that little bit more difficult.
Starting point is 00:52:49 Are you just fed up of telling people with a Y? It's with a Y. It's with an L-Y. It's an L-Y. Yeah, so CharlieCox1 on Instagram and Twitter and at my house. I'm there quite a lot. Go round with cake.
Starting point is 00:53:04 Come to mine with cake as well please that's all we've got time for today guys thank you so much for listening thank you so much for joining us Charlie and have a lovely week everyone see you soon We'll be right back.

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