Love Lives - #51 Why it's important to fail at relationships, with Elizabeth Day

Episode Date: September 14, 2018

What constitutes a relationship fail? A break-up? Treating someone badly? Cheating on your partner? This week on Millennial Love we're joined by the brilliant journalist, author and fellow podcaster Elizabeth Day to discuss why it's important to fail at relationships, and we share our own tales.After all, if you learn something about yourself, is there even such a thing as a fail at all?Follow us on Instagram to stay up-to-date! instagram.com/millennial_loveSupport this show http://supporter.acast.com/millenniallove. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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Visit Peloton at onepeloton.ca. Hello and welcome to Millennial Love, the Independent Lifestyle Desk's weekly podcast on love, dating and relationships. Hosted by me, Olivia Petter, Lifestyle Writer. And me, Rachel Hosey, assistant lifestyle editor. Dating Today is a world away from what it was even just 10 years ago. With dating apps, millennials like us are finding it harder to meet people than ever before. And even when we do, who's to say

that we won't be ghosted, breadcrumbed or zombied? So that is why we decided to launch Millennial Love as two long-time singletons in their 20s, talking candidly about all of the things that everyone is doing but not always willing to admit. Today we're delighted to welcome the brilliant journalist, author and fellow podcaster, Elizabeth Day. Hello! I'm so excited.

We're so excited. We're big fans. Aw, thank you. Ditto. Oh, stop. Oh, this is such a good love fest, isn't it? In case there is anyone out there who does not know about you would you care to enlighten the listeners as to who you are and what you do and all the good stuff of course so

I am Elizabeth I feel like I'm on blind date and I started out as a journalist in fact my first job was in this very building that we're recording this podcast in. It's taking me back. Who did you work for? The Evening Standard. The London Astoria on the Evening Standard. Our neighbours. I know.

So that's very exciting. So I've been a journalist for like a long time. From the age of 17 years. 17 years. And I've also written four novels. Which is epic. How have you written four novels? Well, it's partly that I don't have children.

Lovely. Honestly, that's what I've used my time for. Far more productive. Yeah. The latest one is called The Party. It's out in paperback this year. And I launched my own podcast last month, was it? No, it was July, called How to Fail with Elizabeth Day.

And the idea behind it is that we learn more from our failures than from our successes and it's interviews with successful people about what they've learned from when when things went wrong rather than when things go right it's been such a good listen thank you we've loved every episode haven't we yeah particularly the final episode where you're actually interviewed by Dolly Alderton who has also been on this very podcast a millennial love alumna yeah you will yeah I listened to that episode on this one um thank you that's really kind of you I was really nervous about putting it out there because particularly that final episode I was incredibly

honest about a whole pile of stuff that I don't normally talk publicly about I mean I write first person pieces sometimes but you're always a bit more in control as you guys would know I mean, I write first person pieces sometimes, but you're always a bit more in control, as you guys would know, in print, rather than having questions asked from a really good dear friend who you feel really safe with. But I'm glad I did it and I'm glad I put it out there. It seemed fair after asking other people to open up. It's amazing as well. And I bet everyone who'd listened to all the episodes so far and who have read so many of your books and articles and everything,

people want to get to know you as well. So I think's brilliant I bet everyone loved it we did that's a thank you that's a lovely thing to say I I think it's interesting because I do a lot of celebrity interviews in my day job as a journalist and I'm always the kind of interview I don't put a lot of myself in the piece and that's just the kind of interviewer I am. I love reading other interviewers who do put themselves in. But therefore, the podcast thing was a slightly different dynamic. But I think you're totally right that because you're kind of in someone's ear, there's an intimacy with the listener. And it was really creatively liberating for me to have that rather than having to write something up about, you know,

what shoes Selenaena gomez is wearing when she walks into the restaurant and how she's got an appetite a really big appetite even though she's so slender that's so funny that always makes me laugh with interviews with female celebrities but being like and she ordered a hamburger and she took a bite oh my god groundbreaking she eats food wow i know god that's so funny isn't it no but I that's one of the reason I love podcasts is the intimacy because you get you know obviously you can edit them afterwards but no one like oh no we never really had it do we we just let it flow and I think that's so nice because then you get people in their really organic natural truthful authentic ways I think it's genuine

yeah definitely we love it. Let's do dating debrief. So, dating debrief. Mine is actually very much on the topic of what Elizabeth was just talking about, about being interviewed by a good friend. So I, over the weekend, was interviewed by my good friend who hosts a podcast called Adulting. And also

a Millennial Love alumna. Yes, she is. She is. She was on the podcast a few weeks ago to talk about contraception I feel like months ago but yes maybe it was months ago uh anyway she interviewed me at her house in Brixton I was really hungover and really tired when I went to do the interview so you know when you're kind of in that dazed and confused state and if someone asks you a probing question you're probably feeling a bit vulnerable anyway you'll just kind of break down and tell them everything you smashed it though I I've listened to it back and I was like god I can't believe I spoke about that I mean we

basically spoke about like my whole dating history her whole dating history or sort of lack thereof uh you know the the idea of being single when all your friends are in relationships uh family how family impacts your approach to dating um brilliant it was such a good listen thank you uh it came out yeah it came out yesterday and it's now monday by the way it's now monday so sorry when this episode comes out when this episode comes out it would have come out on the sunday previously yes um but it was it was was very fun so check it out let us know your thoughts

I feel like everyone every interviewee should be slightly hungover when you interview them because it is like a truth serum

you're feeling so hungover or a bit tipsy yes those are the ways people are going to open their soul completely

I bared my soul but it was fun also because it wasn't this podcast I felt like I could be a little bit more confessional than I would normally be you were way more open on her podcast than you're ever been on Millennial Love I've never hung over when we do this podcast because it's the middle of the day at work and I am professional what about you Rachel um so I finished my social media detox. Yay! I was forced to give up social media, including dating apps.

I mean, it was only for a week, but it was a struggle for me because I used them a lot. And I love social media. I love social media so much. I really missed Instagram and Twitter. Facebook, man, it's irrelevant. You've already done like three posts haven't you you've only been on a couple hours uh two yeah but they were they were they were posts where they had lots of photos i had a lot to say yeah so really um i've got to catch

people up do you know what i mean i gotta catch up the fans yeah i gained followers even when i wasn't posting oh my, you are an influencer. That's so interesting. Why do we bother? I don't know. I find Instagram quite strange. I mean, anyway. But I have also decided,

maybe it's because it's the beginning of cuffing season once again, I'm going to commit to trying to use the dating apps properly. Because all summer long, I didn't really date anyone I didn't really go on the apps where I'd go on like once very like once a week if that and you just can't get anywhere with that and I don't know how you meet people in real life so I'm gonna commit to actually using them and having conversations and I may do this for a week and then utterly despair and be like nope I'm done'm done. But I think I'm going to try and do it properly because I want to date again.

Wait, can I, cuffing season? Oh, yes, yes, yes, cuffing season. Does this mean like getting someone in handcuffs? Yes. That is what it does imply. Making them go out with you. Funnily enough, nothing to do with BDSM at all. Gosh, you know, we did cuffing season nearly a year ago,

didn't we, when we started the pod. A cuffing season is essentially, it's basically settling down season where you're trying to find someone for winter to like, it's like a winter boyfriend type thing. To hibernate with. Exactly. I get it. And everyone kind of wants someone cute for like Christmas times and like, you know, cute things like cozying up by the fire and like drinking mulled wine and going ice skating and isn't it cute yeah okay got it thank you exactly so that's my plan I will let you know how I get on it probably won't be fruitful but you know you gotta try you gotta commit a

little bit because some people do you mean the other half on dating apps elizabeth they do someone of this dating someone i have met someone uh i hope he doesn't mind my talking about it oh well too late um uh yeah i actually met someone so i had the whole online dating app thing for i have since like october to the end of march not that i was counting not that i was measuring out the pain um and i met my now boyfriend on an app called hinge which obviously is the worst word ever and whenever we tell people that we met on hinge there's always like a 20 minute digression on why it's called that terrible thing because it rhymes with minge it does rhyme with me and i have to explain when it's like hinging you together with someone with whom you might have mutual friends on facebook

yeah you're supposed to always have mutual friends with the people you match with i think i haven't even fully clocked that i've all the people i've spoken to on it i've had mutual friends with interesting yeah or you can have secondary friends so yeah i think it's i think sometimes it's that yeah i think it's a good concept though because then there's that familiarity that you don't get normally. I feel like most people in London there's like, you know,

two steps removed and we'll share a friend. Like, I don't know. Do you know what though? I'm not sure that I would ever have met my boyfriend. In real life? Yeah, because we work

in different worlds which is something that I absolutely love. I really do having you know dated men and media um it's really nice having someone who has a completely different take on the world and I and I honestly met him at a time when I was just done with dating apps a bit like you were saying Rachel and um I downloaded Hinge on a kind of it was actually a snowy Saturday morning sounds lovely when I was in March though hashtag kind of, it was actually a snowy Saturday morning. Sounds lovely.

When I was, in March though, hashtag global warming. Yeah. I was like, I was so done with it. And I was like, I remembered someone telling me about Hinge

a couple of years ago. And I was like, I'm just going to do it just to kind of while away the hours of the Saturday morning. Oh, absolutely. It's fun, isn't it? Yeah.

And I went, so then we started chatting. He was the first person to connect with me. He was the first person you matched with on. It was the first person you matched with on the first day you downloaded Hinge. Yes. Stop. That's true story.

That's great. Oh my God. True story. Why doesn't this happen to me? It's like my ex-flatmate, the first dating update she ever went on, they stayed together for ages, now they're living together,

and I'm like, I've dated so many guys. But can I just say, it wasn't the first app date I'd been on. I'd been on a few stinkers. It's true. for ages now they're living together and i'm like i've dated so many guys but can i just say it wasn't the first app date i'd been on i've been on a few stinkers it's true like and the other thing that i would say this is the the annoying thing when you've been single for ages as you guys would know yeah we do know oh we are yeah you have your kind of um unwittingly smug coupled up friends who will always say to you it'll happen when you least expect it oh you know how many times i've heard that makes me rage it'll happen

when you've decided to like do your own thing and made your own plans and the annoying thing is that's right with in this particular instance it was completely right i had booked flights that morning the morning i met justin i booked flights to go to LA thinking I was going to move there I was like there's nothing for me in London yeah and I only went on the date because I was like oh I suppose I should you know and then I walked in and I was like oh my god thank goodness I did and annoyingly all those people turned out to be right they always are though that's exactly what um another guest of ours said Gemmama Sophia, Money Cutes, came on, and she said the exact same thing.

When you least expect it, that's when she met her boyfriend, also on Tinder, I think. Tinder's prompting lots of marriages now. It is. Lots of people have got married through Tinder. Yeah. And a lot of my closest mates

are in very serious relationships with people they met online. That's the thing. It's very easy to sort of slag off dating apps because they kind of are horrendous at times to go through but they do work actually a lot of people do meet people on them and get into relationships and are very happy I also think it's about um like reconfiguring our idea of romance because a lot of people in fact someone I went on a bumble date with said this to me about how he had always thought he was going to meet his intended in a in a meet cute like a rom-com

meet cute where they'd be at some party and he'd like trip over and spill wine over her shoes and they'd have this like dazzling connection and it would be a moment of pure serendipity and obviously the dating app scene doesn't allow for that yeah but maybe it's it's really romantic in its own way because when you come to a dating app and you answer all the profile questions you have to be clear about what you want and committed to who you are as a person and maybe that in itself is kind of romantic if someone is drawn to that i like that i think so too and also i think you know you take a risk when you go on a date with someone you meet online they could either match up to all your expectations i mean they rarely do but they could surprise you you could you could

yeah they do and i think sometimes you go into dates being like i can't really be asked to do this but i'll go anyway and then they blow you away and you're like oh my god and that is romantic and then you could end up having this amazing date that goes on for hours yeah or they end the day after two hours because they don't fancy you lol remember that happened how do you guys end a date though when you walk when you walk in is this something i always struggled with when you walk in you're like i just know there's going to be no chemistry whatsoever and like and i need to get out of here after maybe two glasses of wine so i'll tell you what i do i got a few got a few tricks up my sleeve so the first time this happened to me i met this guy he it sounds

really bad but he was much shorter than i expected and we just did not click shorter than you no oh olivia yes i know she's not that tall i am five foot seven i am wearing slight heels today um anyway the chat was fine. Fine. But that's not really what you want from a date, is it? Anyway, I went to the loo after like an hour and a half, came back and was like, right, so I've ordered an Uber. So I'll see you later. This was great.

I just left and that was it. Wow. Yeah, I've never done that. I was just very determined. Well done. Kind of didn't give him the option to try and convince me to stay, which is maybe a bit mean. But anyway, then he clearly got the picture because then I never heard from him again

I always lie I make something up I can't lie I can't lie no but I can lie because I prefer to lie than offend them I I will say something like I remember one time there was this guy that took two hours to drink one glass of wine I was just like this isn't gonna work um so I was like I'm really sorry it's actually my flatmate's birthday I've got to go back and do cake or another thing that was like this is my final night to see my brother before he goes away to America for six months and I make do you have a brother yeah he was going to America good question though he was going to America for like two weeks in like a month's time right so it wasn't a total lie yeah but it was basically there was no reason for me to leave

do you say that at the beginning at the outset or during the course of the evening I say that as soon as I've realized I'm not interested which is probably about half an hour in you know I think you know pretty quickly don't you do although i've also had dates where like the first half of the day i'm like oh my god yeah i really like this guy and then i go to lure something and i come back and it totally switches i'm like nope not into you and i don't know how that happens it's funny because i think we're so hyper judgmental when we're on a dating update they could say one thing not even just a dating that is a bit of a cringe joke or just i don't know maybe they say something political that

doesn't really ring with your political views and you're like nope done we judge so much even though like they're nervous and might say things they didn't mean or you know make an awkward joke and and then we judged on that and we're like deal breaker which is not really quite right that's why my mum always goes you gotta give everyone at least two dates and i'm like time is short mum i actually totally agree with that now I mean a time is short and sometimes you do really know and you definitely know you don't want to go on a second date with them but I'm a big believer now in the slow burn and again I think it's about reconfiguring romance because I have had that thing where I've been at a party and I've seen a man and we have had an

instant connection and I was listening to you guys talking about the notion of first of love at first sight with Maya Jama and um and I I agree with you that you can have like an instant lust connection or like an instant sort of deep connection but actually you can't really feel love straight away I mean that just doesn't make any sense but for me now I feel that love can also exist in a really beautiful evolving way where you like someone to start with and you carry on liking them more and more and more so I so I think when you have a first date that is kind of nice but not ticking every single box and maybe isn't giving you butterflies I actually think you should in that instance give it a second go because the other thing is is that we're all carrying so much bloody pain and we're so like bruised from past experiences that you're going to be cautious and they probably are too yeah that's why you need to so that's so interesting like i always feel like i'm waiting for fireworks i want fireworks but maybe that's

me sort of being brainwashed by rom-coms. And, but then again, some of my friends are like, met this guy and then we talked all night and then we were, didn't want to be separated ever. And that was it. And I'm like, I want that. And I, but then I also hear people who are like,

yeah, he was like fine at first. And then we carried on dating and I just like grew to like him more and more. And now it's great. I mean, I, I've got friends of mine who are happily married to people that they met in both those circumstances but probably more of them who met

thinking this is a nice guy but i'm not sure there's anything to it and then and then the fireworks happened six months in how amazing is that is that you get like a really solid friendship and then the fireworks. Yeah, but I feel like you have to be quite like committed to the, just that guy being like a nice guy. And he has to do something to keep your attention until the fireworks kick in. Sometimes the fireworks can be a bad sign though

if they're instant. I totally agree. Sometimes it can, because it just, you know, it's instant lust, for example. And it clouds your judgment of that person.

The thing is, I already know that I have rejected so many guys who are like, great guys, really nice, would treat me so well. Parents would love marriage material. But I'm like, no, boring. And I'm like, why do I do this? I'm going to regret this in the future. I think you need a twinkle. There needs to be a twinkle.

You can be a nice guy and stable and all of those things, but you need to feel, there needs to be a twinkle in the eye. There does. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Shall we talk about our main topic of today? We have all been very chatty.

We could stay here for hours. We haven't done bio of the week. Oh, we haven't done bio of the week. Okay, I'll read this one out. Okay, take it away. So this was one that was sent to us by a listener on our millennial love instagram account thank you very much it reads it was on bumble by the way and we do not have a name so i will just read the bio i need someone to share my pasta sometimes it's cannelloni i like it oh

that's amazing isn't that cute that's amazing i'm always down for a food challenge i'm gonna ask her to send send me like profile send him my number yeah we'll manipulate the algorithm so that he comes up on your feed yeah perfect i love that i love that i love a pun i love pasta love pasta it's snappy it's great to be fair i'm pretty much more in love with pasta than any man ever so oh pasta it's that um it's there's that other joke isn't there about what do you call a cheese that's disguising a horse oh wait I feel like what do you call a cheese that's disguising a horse I feel like a mascarpone yeah oh that's good so good that's good oh cheese puns are great there are so many Olivia is particularly good at puns.

Sometimes I'm writing an article and I'm like, help me come up with some puns. Yeah, I like the puns. You're very good at it. Okay, so the main topic we're going to discuss today is relationship fails and why it's important to fail in relationships. Which is sort of based obviously off your podcast. Because we just love to hear about everyone's failures. Because they're never really failures at all are they but they're just the things we think of as failures so with this relationship angle shall we start by talking about what we even think constitutes like a

relationship fail what do you guys think I think that's such an interesting question because is there any such thing as failure? Ultimately, that's the kind of premise of my podcast and it's what I feel about life because a failure isn't a failure if you learn something useful from it. And every relationship of mine that has ever failed, which is all of them apart from the current one,

which is obviously that's just a given um but I have learned something profound about myself and about who I am but also how I am in a relationship so in my 20s I was a long-term serial monogamist. So from the age of 19 to the age of 36, I was single for two months. No. Yeah. Wow, you're so the opposite of me and Livvy then. And I think it's much better to be your way round because during that time, I took relationships so seriously

that I almost forgot to ask myself what I wanted from one. I was just like in a succession of them and I took them really seriously and I was like, you know, they might end up in marriage is ultimately the mindset with which I went into each one of them. And it just meant that I started to kind of carve myself out around the other person's needs and desires. And I think maybe a lot of women do that when they're not sure of who they are and I certainly wasn't when I left university like I thought I was but I wasn't and I became an inveterate people pleaser because I just wanted people to like me and tell me I was okay because I didn't have that self-worth myself and in a

relationship dynamic that can be really harmful because you end up not taking decisions and not placing boundaries where you should and not really saying what you want and then the other person can sometimes take advantage of that without knowing i mean it got to the stage with me where there was this one particular boyfriend and he's like really nice guy um but i remember he would ask like where do you want to go for lunch a weekend I was like I don't have I don't know where do you want to go for lunch I do this all the time it's terrible I'm so indecisive because I just want to mold myself to whatever they want to do because I'm I can I can feel myself doing it sometimes I'm like well if I say this I risk him thinking

oh that's a really uncool place to suggest exactly isn't it funny how you can be really confident in like every aspect of your life and then when it comes to someone you like you're suddenly like a quivering child who you know can't be strong can't assert themselves can't sort of trust your your instincts and your you know stand by what you believe in yeah it's so annoying it's so annoying slightly of a tangent but i also found i was just thinking about this the other day like if you're on like a night out or out for drinks or something in the pub with friends and then like if normally you'd be like oh i'm tired i'm going home isn't it amazing how if there's someone there you fancy you have this strange energy that allows you to like stay out all night because there's someone there you fancy, you have this strange energy that allows you to stay out all night

because there's someone you fancy there? Yeah. It's totally a tangent. It's just amusing that it occurred to me. I have a question. Going back to defining a relationship fail, because obviously you could say, yeah, every relationship that's ended is a fail.

But it's not. Well, it could be in a sense, but do you think it's sometimes more specific things like I don't know cheating is obviously quite an obvious it's quite an obvious example but say you you do something very specific that is the catalyst to ending that relationship do you think that's more of a failure than actually just the relationship failing in itself like is there a specific like if you look back on previous even just like you know people you've seen right relationships can you think of like specific things that you've done

I've got a fail in my head yeah yeah what's your fail so my fail this is what springs to my mind anyway is a guy I was dating it must have been nearly five years ago now because it was when I was on my year abroad in Germany and I was dating this German guy like very briefly like it wasn't even very long but it was like there was quite a lot of build-up um anyway that's a very long story but ultimately I freaked out because he was keen and really into me and like sending me all these really sweet messages and wanting to see me and I freaked out pushed him away but like didn't give him any closure didn't like really explain anything why I suddenly was like not into him why I was ignoring him why I would like make up excuses not to see him and I really regret how I behaved it wasn't okay it wasn't a fair to him he was a

really nice guy actually and I like feel really bad about what I did and I consider that to be a fail because of how I treated him and I don't I'm not saying I should have like pushed through my freak out and carried on dating him. Because if it felt like too much for me, it felt like too much for me. But I would have been, I wish I'd been a better person to, I've been more mature. Yeah. To say to him, I'm sorry, this is too much. I don't know. I don't like, I felt very young at the time and I've learned so much more since

and I don't think I really knew that what what was happening and why I was feeling how I did I went from really liking him to he was driving me crazy and I couldn't stand him and I didn't behave well and that's a fail oh just be kind to yourself because you weren't really young I know and and it sounds to me like you wouldn't do the same thing again because you'll learn from that. And he might be listening in Germany whilst munching on his bratwurst. I'd be surprised because my German was a lot better than his English, but that was five years ago.

Maybe he's got better. I don't know. I'd be surprised if he was listening. But if he is, I'm sorry. I'm sorry for how I treated you. But I think that's so interesting because I think you like me are conflict avoidant yeah and I think a lot of women again just to generalize horribly by gender but a lot of women have been raised to be that way they've been raised to be like nice pliant pleasant girls whereas men more generally definitely when I was growing up in the

80s men were kind of raised to be bold and adventurous and kind of rewarded for that and I think so much of my relationship failure comes down to wanting to avoid conflict and arguments and therefore losing my voice I can't bear confrontation yeah I think losing my voice is a big one for me as well if I were to go through all of the different like experiences I've had with guys it's yeah it's not standing up for myself and just letting people sort of walk all over me just because I'm blinded by infatuation I mean I'll do anything to make you like me more basically like that's my biggest fear is coming across as unlikable in any way because of something I've said or done wrong which is which is just horrific no but paranoid when you like someone yeah you are it just it messes with your head when you like someone. Yeah, you are. It just messes

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Have you got anything that stands out for you, Elizabeth? As a failure? Yeah. Well, I was married and got divorced, so I would consider that a failure. Do you? Yeah, because it's a big thing to do, get married, and to commit yourself to that. And I was wholly committed to it.

I really believed in it and what we were doing and the vows that I took in front of my family and friends our family and friends then arguably is that not a fail if you know you were completely committed to it at the time if you if you'd gone through with it yeah when you're a bit like I'm not actually sure about this but I'll do it anyway then I think maybe yeah that's a nice way of looking at it so I'll take it yeah. Then I think maybe. Yeah, that's a nice way of looking at it. So I'll take it. I think it was actually tremendous success. But I actually think that failure stems from not knowing myself.

I so thought I knew myself. And it's been really interesting in the aftermath of the divorce. So I've been divorced three years now. How old were you when you got married 33 but we've been together four years before that right so so I met my ex-husband when I was 29 which is quite a pivotal age again for a woman because you're coming to terms with turning 30 and and which is a great thing but you in the back of your head you're like well I'll never be considered young again yeah there's this stupid thing isn't there in society that it's like 30 is this turning

point for women and it's like now you're not young which is stupid yeah and I had this thing because I'd always been very young for doing what I was doing so as a journalist people would be like oh gosh you're so young and I knew that that would never happen again once there was a three in front of my age but actually my 30s have been my best decade definitely so far in terms of like what I've learned and all of my novels were published in this decade like stuff like that um so there's been a I've I feel much more fulfilled now than I did at 29 that's awesome yeah it's great honestly I'd cancel it to everyone celebrate your 30th birthday um gonna have a huge party definitely do that but yeah so my it was a lack of self-knowledge really and it and since the divorce what has

been interesting is that my closest friends and my mother and like close members of my family they all could see things that I couldn't when I was in the relationship so one of the things that I was most worried about and ashamed of was having to stand up and say I think I've made a mistake yeah and I was so worried about people's responses and what they would think of me and how I would potentially have let them down and that I wasn't this kind of person this perfect person this image that I was trying to project. And the biggest discovery was that they already knew that and they much preferred me when I wasn't trying to be some ridiculous

Stepford wife perfection. That's so interesting. That is so interesting. Do you think, because you said you were only single for two months between the ages of 19 and 36, do you think the lack of self-awareness probably comes from that, not having spent enough time on

your own definitely part it's an interesting one because I've always been very independent minded and I've always liked being on my own and having time on my own um I need time on my own to kind of replenish my energy reserves oh my god me too and that's difficult in a relationship if someone doesn't understand that it is and but then because I always had that, I thought I had had time on my own in a way. Because I did have that kind of independent spirit of like going off and going on holidays with friends rather than my boyfriend at the time. So I think I played a sort of mental trick on myself where I thought I did know myself and I thought I had spent time on my own. And again, it was one of those things that a lot of people say to you oh you must take time you know don't rush things you must take time to be single and be on your own and I was like oh what a cliche I don't

need that but actually there are things that you can only learn when you're single for a period of time there really are and one of the things that I learned in my most recent patch of being single is that it is really really tough and there are lots of people who are in long-term happy relationships or even not so happy relationships who look at you and say I wish I could live life vicariously through like I'd love to go on a few dates that's so Bridget Jones isn't it that's so like the friends her going to that dinner party and then being oh tell us bridge how is it being single like oh sod off it's amazing bridget jones like that amazing book still holds so true i know started as a column in

the independent it did it's so funny yeah i watched bridget jones three the other day that was great i've loved all of them same I found the second one totally hilarious the skiing holiday because I hate skiing yeah that's the one

I always think of that's the one she goes to Thailand as well yeah oh god what a film and arguably

does a relationship fail by going back to Hugh Grant in Thailand now that's interesting going back to people is that a fail no because look at Kate and Wills is all I'm saying no but going back to people is that a fail no because look at kate and wills is all i'm saying no but going back to someone who has treated you like crap we don't know the

ins and outs of their relationship i'm talking about i'm talking about you and bridget jones what's his name daniel cleaver daniel cleaver i mean i would probably have gone back to him he's so smooth i wouldn't have been able to resist that. But the interesting thing is, given what we were talking about, about fireworks, Bridget and Daniel had fireworks. Exactly. And I took her on a mini break. Like, all the things that you think you want, like rowing on the lake outside the Country House Hotel. But actually,

he wasn't great, was he? Colin Firth was the one. He just knew how to weave a narrative with his words, but he wasn't trustworthy. Exactly. Colin Firth, slow burner. Yes. Mr Darcy. Yes, lovely. That's a good lookout for emotionally inept emotionally inept no but he turns out he totally turns it around and I think that's quite a realistic portrayal of of the slow burn like you meet someone and you think oh god like I would never go for the geeky guy in the dorky Christmas jumper I always go for the geeky

guy in the dorky Christmas jumper do you oh no this is confusing does that mean that you have to go i love dorky guys yeah but i would also be totally wooed by the daniel cleavers of the world have you ever gone back to a relationship no have you yeah i had a situation for about five or six years with a guy is this the fail you want to tell us guy yeah yeah I could tell about my fail okay so when I I spoke about this a bit when I was on an Oni's podcast at the weekend so when I was about 15 16 I started seeing a guy yeah I went to boarding school where people would just date all the time because there's nothing else to do yeah yeah it was very naughty people used to have sex in the golf shed and all

sorts of things and golf yeah there were just loads of random sheds all over the anyway it's a very lovely school very lucky to go there but club yeah exactly quite um anyway i basically i i'd never really dated anyone before. I got a bit overwhelmed. You probably don't date at 15, 16. Well, no, not really. But, you know, like we would be able to go on walks after we'd finished doing our homework. It sounds so cringe saying it now.

But anyway, and he lived quite near me in London. Yeah, so I would see him in the holidays. Anyway, I screwed things up by snogging his best mate at a party. While you were with the guy? Well, we would never,

we had never really like officially defined things. But I was an idiot and got drunk and screwed things up. At 16? Yeah. Underage drinking?

Don't do it. Yeah. Rachel's being very headmistress hosy right now. I'm not enjoying it. Judging. Yeah. So then I got back to school and decided

that oh actually you know what i've screwed up i really like this guy went to go and see so he knew that you'd got with his yeah yeah i told him that is messy you told him yeah i told him um anyway and then he friend as well yeah sorry can you stop please honestly the judgment coming out of you right now thank you you're like you just want everyone to like you yeah exactly sorry go on anyway didn't know what i was doing i made a mistake he then started dating someone else proceeded to go out with this girl for like four or five years but while he was dating her sort of got his own back on me by messing with my head for the duration of that relationship and drop your seeds would drop me seeds would ask to go out with me but the big fail on my part was

that i bought into all of this would meet up with him thinking buying into the fantasy of this forbidden love narrative being like oh he's with someone else but he really likes me more than her but did you like kiss and stuff yeah twice and that is the fail on my part because i should not have done that and was that from from 15 to 20 then yeah that is a long sort of yeah i think around about then it's difficult because like to be honest with you like if that's a very messy tangled web i would say it's more on him like he's it's he's like he's a worse human for like getting with you multiple times while he had that other girlfriend possibly girlfriend it's still like not top form from you i know it's not top form for me but it's

just it's just me getting swept up in the whole, you know, fantasy of it all being like, yeah, this is the person that is for me. Because those years, 15 to 20, well, you know, just just your teenage years, you're so impressionable. And particularly if that's your first, you know, experience of dating or romance or whatever, you think you're like, God, this feels great. romance or whatever you think you're like god this feels great and you just you compare it to all of the films and books and all of that which is just nonsense that you're fed and it can be really damaging it can mess with you for the rest of your life not the rest of your life but you know it can set a bad precedent it can set a toxic precedent i think yeah it's so difficult because there is that romantic narrative about there being obstacles in your way exactly love that you can't deny and i also think that men can exploit um that

sorry to be all like soapboxy but that patriarchal notion that women should compete with each other yeah so what he's setting up there is just like a competition between two women yeah exactly sorry men i mean some of you are absolutely some of you are all right a handful um i think that interesting though there's stories that olivia and i have told is more like we acknowledge that we did not behave so greatly there but you with your marriage is like not the same thing at all because you didn't do anything that you should have done otherwise do you know what I mean well so this is where it gets into tricky territory because my marriage is the story of two people and obviously my ex isn't here to put his side of the story and I can't possibly talk for him but what I can say from my part is that I found it very difficult to talk about things to

him that were obsessing me and I therefore found it tricky to communicate clearly sometimes and I I thought I was saying things very clearly but it could be that I wasn't and I'm being very opaque I'm really talking about communicating clearly and not communicating that clearly but I think that is one thing that I have had to own up to and claim as my own part to play in that

But you know what's so interesting when we acknowledge that you know things like that if you're like oh maybe I'm not so good at communicating feelings or whatever it might be, is it then like this is something I need to work on or, well, this is just who I am?

I don't know. That is such a good question. Because I think you possibly can't change your fundamental character, but you can change the way that you express it. And I'm a big proponent of therapy and um I went into therapy um when I was still married but going through IVF which um also was a very traumatic experience and contributed to the breakdown of that relationship and I I thank God that I went into therapy because it did help me find my voice and also to have someone else be able to you know sometimes it's quite difficult to talk to your

friends constantly about yourself because you feel too self-absorbed and you don't want to just moan on at them all the time and actually having someone who you can knock things around with who's completely objective who has an objective take on what your relationship might or might not be was really really helpful to me yeah because also your friends might have their own agenda in some way because they they might be particularly hard on you because they're trying to you know help you get over this person who they saw treat you so horrifically so i agree sometimes it can be really helpful to talk to. I mean, I went through something pretty horrific in January, February time.

And I, the way I dealt with it was by speaking to everyone I possibly could about it. Often people that I just met. God, we're so similar. It's so, particularly when you're drunk, it's just like,

but it really helps. And then they tell you things and then you just you bond and you just feel like god this is so refreshing yeah talking is the one to be honest well i think you're so right that every like everyone brings their own experience to bear on it exactly and actually by talking i find that by talking to lots of people then you kind of stitch together a patchwork yeah all this stuff and then within that within that amazing mosaic you can kind of just be so much clearer about what you think and what you want and and coming out of the relationships I've had that have ended has made me so much clearer about

what I want and really um in a very very honest way so I've gone through that phase of wanting fireworks and poems because I don't really trust them anymore like I actually trust someone who does what they say they're going to do and who shows their love through meaningful action that is not to say that I don't like texts I love texts and I never get enough of them. I've got an insatiable appetite for like loving texts but now I sort of turn

to my friends for that. Yeah, more reliable I'd say. Many, many loving texts. I think that's quite nice though because basically what we're all saying is that all these things that we think of as fails

in their respective ways, whether they're fails or not, we've all learned from them. Definitely. And that is the main point. as fails in their respective ways, whether they're fails or not, we've all learned from them. Right? And that is the main point. Okay, let's squeeze in a quick dating dilemma from one of our listeners. Okay, thank you very much for sending this in.

Hi girls, I've been meaning to message you about something I'd love to discuss on the podcast that maybe you guys have had experience with or have advice on yourselves. So what I'm always wondering is, how do you suss out who are the fuckboys? What are the alarm bells? I'm horribly bad at detecting them. Some of these guys are so damn good at masquerading themselves as decent blokes. You know, the dating app pictures of them with their mums,

the polite offer that maybe you'd like to choose where you go on your first date, maybe even speak the day of the date, telling you they're looking forward to meeting you no vulgar comments or hints at anything untoward they may have in mind for the evening ahead this has happened to me so many times i think i found a gent told my closest girl mates that maybe i've actually found someone to have a decent conversation with over red wine then to soon realize he is just like the rest of them. Only wants to get in your pants. Is not interested in getting to know you at all. Just like a mutating virus,

these men are so accomplished at playing the good guy, getting you all excited, then only to interrupt you mid-conversation, asking you whether your top zip's all the way down. Brackets, yes, this has actually happened to me before and I got up and walked out. Or to angrily order an Uber when it's clear, quote marks,

you don't want to sleep together tonight, finished quote marks, of which I had never given any indication, verbal or otherwise. So what do you guys think? How do you weed out the fuckboy expert pretenders from the genuinely honest and decent men? They are so cunning and adaptive.

I mean, absolutely fantastic message. Very relatable right there. Now, I will say we did an episode on fuck boys many many many moons ago so definitely go back and listen to that but it's definitely a good one to touch on again i'd say because i find the whole concept the phenomenon of the fuck boy so interesting because obviously it's a term that we've sort of created in the past few years but they've obviously existed forever it's these guys who only want sex, but they are very good at playing women. They, exactly as this lovely listener has said,

they make you think they're genuinely good guys who really like you, want a relationship with you, because they know that that's what's going to lull you into a false sense of security, and then they're going to just have sex with you and never message you ever again they're the worst i have to say in the interest of gender parity i think that there are fuck girls oh there are there are however i think it's less common yes yes i would agree with that i think ultimately it's about someone being misleading from the beginning about their intentions and thing is those intentions can change and it's

very difficult to actually know on the first few dates what someone's really looking for with you um and i have dated many a fuck boy and I've always thought they were God's gift in the beginning. And it's only then after they start to, red flags do start to crop up after about date two or three. And it could be something really simple like cancelling a date and not rearranging it. Or, you know, ignoring a message you've sent on one platform, but then sending you something else silly on another platform,

because obviously there are so many ways to communicate with each other now um it's just it's just little things or you know being excessively complimentary can also be a little bit of a warning sign sometimes i think because then you're like are you just saying that because you think that that's what you should be saying treating you as an option not a priority right well i i totally agree with the with um the compliments thing i think that's where i went wrong for many millennia of my life i was just like so wowed by compliments but actually they're shallow yeah unless there are actions that come after that yeah i'm about to give some like probably slightly bad advice thank advice but if you're worried someone is a fuck boy isn't the best thing to do to fuck them as in if you sleep with them

straight away then you're not emotionally vulnerable or connected enough to care that much if they don't call you back at least you get it out of the way and you're like oh i've weeded that one out and if they're not then they'll be in touch with you and then you can carry on no but i mean i get i get like that approach i get why you say that but i think i it is like a stereotype i know this isn't always the case but i know for a lot of women that's like i don't know sex is not something you just do super casually and it does sometimes mean something and then if you're someone who would only sleep with a guy when you feel like it's something that means something then it it can be pretty crushing if you do that and then equally though it can also be quite empowering to just

think screw it i'm just gonna sleep with them and then see what happens afterwards and not let myself get attached and yes that's easier said than done in some instances but if you really if you know if it's someone that you just met on a dating app and you know you think they're attractive but maybe you know you know sort of from the outset that this isn't really someone you see having a long-term thing with it can be quite empowering to just think screw it I'm just gonna see what happens I mean do you know the other thing I would say to this lovely listener is that clearly she has a type and that type isn't working for her. And actually, maybe she should try and swipe. I always forget which way it is.

Left. Is that the right one? Right is if you want them. Left is if you don't. I'm very bad at left and right. right okay um to swipe right on the ones who might not seem to have the great chat on their profile but who possibly like answer in quite a sincere way that doesn't seem that funny yeah but it's a sincere way to the questions and just see where that takes you i would almost set it as like an assignment for yourself just like go on a couple of dates like that and see what happens i also don't want to say that all really hot guys are fuckboys but often the ones who do have like chiseled abs and all this and I

like probably posting like naked mirror selfies on their dating app profiles they're the ones who are kind of like so hot that they think they can just get any girl they want pick them up drop them mess them around not always not all hot men are fuck boys but i'm just saying from my experience you know okay so you know this is awful thing which actually anoni mentioned on her podcast as well this stupid concept of the hot crazy scale for women whereby apparently the hotter the woman the crazier she is well i mean that's obviously a very flawed concept but i'm not saying the male equivalent is hot and fuck boy but there might be a little definitely the naked mirror like never date anyone no no i mean but that's not necessarily a sign that they're going to be a fuck boy that's

just a sign they're a pretty awful person to be honest like she looks like a hotel and the kind of the brightness of the flash is reverberating against the weird lino of the premier in bathroom. Yeah, that's not someone looking for a relationship. That's someone looking for an Instagram girlfriend. Don't swipe right on those people. Or a hookup. Yeah, or a hookup. Exactly.

I would just say, trust your gut. Yeah. If you're getting warning signs and you're thinking maybe he's a fuck boy and maybe he is if you're getting the warning signs this is what i do when i really like someone i get the warning signs i make up excuses for my head about those warning signs and i'll be like oh no but he only cancelled this because he's really busy with this or it's the classic do that i do do that all the time it's the classic he's just not that into you narrative that you can't accept and you'll just make up all of this stuff in your own head to vindicate their terrible behavior because you're so blinded by maybe the fireworks oh

yes so annoying okay um we hope that helps it's hard it's hard to weed out the fuckboys. It is. Although, one of our other listeners, when we did an episode about sober dating, got in touch saying, sober dating helps weed out the fuckboys. So maybe suggest a sober date.

And if someone wants to do that, there might be less likely to be a fuckboy. Maybe a fuckboy just wants to get drunk and get in your knickers. Don't know. Could be one to try. Clever tactic. I like it.

Try it out and tell us yeah that's not how it goes but good luck and thank you for writing in and that's all we've got time for today thank you so much

for listening everyone we really hope you've enjoyed it if you have please do rate review subscribe

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you send will be kept anonymous Elizabeth thank you so much for coming in thank you can we just carry on chatting and just not yeah yeah I'm just going to honest with you should we just make this like a four hour podcast perfect yeah great the listeners will love that saddle up yeah literally buckle in

no but genuinely you've been so fantastic this has been such a lovely chat thank you i've loved it it's been really really fun and so interesting and I love your podcast thank you for having me and buy Elizabeth's book The Party it's very very good very funny and where can everyone

find you on on the socials on anywhere else on the socials Eliza B Day B Day not like the bathroom implements

just Elizabeth Day is probably a better way of saying it on Twitter on Instagram on that handle lovely everyone gonna give elizabeth a follow and have a lovely week everyone see you next week acas powers the world's best podcasts.

Here's a show that we recommend. I'm Jessie Cruikshank, and on my podcast, Phone a Friend, I break down the biggest stories in pop culture. But when I have questions, I get to phone a friend. I phone my old friend, Dan Levy. You will not die hosting the Hills after show. I get thirsty for the hot wiggle. I didn't even know a thirsty man until there was all these headlines.

And I get schooled by a tween. Facebook is like a no, that's what my grandma's on. Thank God Phone a Friend with Jesse Crookshank is not available on Facebook. It's out now wherever you get your podcasts. Acast helps creators launch, grow, and monetize their podcasts everywhere. Acast.com.