Love Lives - Abusive relationships, love-bombing, and female sexuality, with Charli Howard

Episode Date: July 2, 2021

This week, Olivia speaks to model, author and entrepreneur Charli Howard. Charli is known for her body neutrality advocacy on Instagram and beyond, having written about the pressures she faced as a young model in her debut book, Misfit, in which she describes how she was dropped from her modelling agency for being “too big”. Today, she joins me to talk about why body confidence and self worth is so integral to finding success in love, why women posting pictures of their bodies on social media is such a contentious subject, especially where feminism is concerned, and abusive relationships. We also discuss love-bombing, gaslighting and psychological abuse - so please do bear this in mind before listening. If you need support, you can call The Freephone National Domestic Abuse Helpline, run by Refuge on 0808 2000 247 for free at any time, day or night.Support this show http://supporter.acast.com/millenniallove. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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Visit Peloton at onepeloton.ca. Hello and welcome to Millennial Love, a podcast from The Independent on everything to do with love, sexuality, identity, and more. This week, I'm very excited to be joined by model, writer and entrepreneur Charlie Howard. Charlie is best known for her body neutrality advocacy on Instagram and beyond, having written about the pressures she faced as a young model in her debut book, Misfit, in which she describes how she was dropped from her modelling agency for being too big, despite the fact that she was a size 6 at the time. Today though, she joins me to talk about why body confidence and self-worth is so integral to finding success in love.

We also discuss why women posting pictures of their bodies on social media is such a contentious subject, especially where feminism is concerned. And we do also speak about abusive relationships and topics such as love bombing, gaslighting and psychological abuse. So please do bear this in mind before listening. I'll share some helpline information at the end of the show. Enjoy. Hi, Charlie. How are you doing? I'm really well. How are you?

I'm good. Thank you. I always want to talk about the weather when I start the show because I'm like, oh God, it's just, I'm looking outside my window and it's pissing it down with rain. It's so depressing. Literally, muggy. Yeah, oh, I hate it. Like what British summer, basically. I know.

So thank you so much for being here. I guess there's so much I want to talk to you about, but I suppose a good place to start would be with what happened when you were 23 and you were modeling and you were told by a Scandinavian client that you were too big to fit into their clothes even though at the time you were a size six which is such a shocking thing to hear and you know I think you talk about how that was the decision that led you to leave your model agency at the time. So if you could start us off by talking a bit about that, and I guess how that affected your confidence when it came to dating at that time.

Modeling, if you are insecure, is the worst industry to get into, because people knock you down all the time. And it's very difficult to view yourself as an object but that is solely you know what you are you are at the bottom of the food chain I think people have this idea that you're going to go in being Kate Moss or or Bella Hadid and you're just not unless you're incredibly lucky um and that was a bit of a wake-up call so I had very little confidence to begin with but yeah to cut a long story short when was 23, I'd been modeling for about two and a half, three years by this point. I spent my teens trying to get into modeling. And then when I was actually 21, I got into it. So I've been modeling for two and a half, three years without, you know, any success really, or any luck. I hardly got any shoots at all, really. And I had an eating disorder, a really bad eating disorder.

And when I was a size six, one of my last jobs was in Scandinavia somewhere, I can't remember whereabouts, but it was for a new online e-commerce site. So I had to shoot about 80 outfits that day. And let me tell you now, that's not particularly fun so anyway on the shoot there was a pair of leather trousers I couldn't fit into and apparently this was integral for the shoot you know the fact that I couldn't fit into them was a was a big problem because they planned all the outfits around them anyway I kept apologizing I'm so sorry I'm so sorry you know like apologizing for the way my body's built um and when I got back to London a couple of days later they called me up and they just said look you know we really appreciate how much you go to the gym

how much effort you're putting into getting into shape inverted commas um but unfortunately you know not everyone's designed to be a model and I don't think it's ever going to happen for you so we're going to drop you and after about three years of just starving myself, it was like I had this like moment where I suddenly looked at myself properly in the mirror. And I realized that actually, not only did I have a problem, which I wasn't really ready to address yet with food, but I also was so much thinner and taller than most of my normal, I say normal, you know, people outside the industry friends. I say normal, you know, people outside the industry, friends. And therefore, you know, what the hell were they doing? So I wrote a Facebook post that went viral at the time when things didn't really go viral. And yeah, it got picked up by everyone. It was on the BBC, it was on the news, it was in Pakistan, it was in Japan. I mean, it was was literally everywhere and it was a kind of out-of-body experience because you know I said fuck off to this agency and you know the way you you treat women um affects women on the outside of the industry as well and and blah blah blah anyway yeah I had very very little confidence at the time and at the time I was going out with I was actually engaged to a guy um who knew I had an eating disorder he knew I had bulimia and would kind of mock me for it um you know would kind of say

things like why don't you go make yourself sick again or you know um I don't know it was it was it was it was a very tricky one you know we weren't intimate because I don't think he found my body particularly attractive when it was all skin and bones but also I didn't feel attractive you know I didn't want to be intimate with anyone um because I genuinely thought I was so obese and so fat and so disgusting and how could anyone ever love me kind of thing um so when you have you know your career not working out your relationship not working out and then everything else kind of falling to pieces around you uh which is how it felt at the time it's a really difficult position to be in yeah my god i'm sorry i cannot believe that all

happened to you but also i'm just so shocked to hear what your ex-fiance said to you and how he dealt with that did he did he show any compassion that you were clearly going through you know a really horrific time with your agency and with your relationship with your body like did he try and help you in any way or was he just sort of very dismissive about the whole thing well he was quite a jealous person um he wasn't someone that liked to see me shine in any way like I remember one time I uh booked a job with Rankin the photographer and at the time it was like oh my god Rankin I can't believe it and um and I told him and he and all he said to me was yeah well you know don't get too big-headed about it and he was just he was a very jealous person and no I um he didn't want to a see me shine but also I think he completely turned his back to what I was doing and you know our relationship suffered it wasn't just him it

was me as well because when food is your life, it makes things very difficult. It means you can't go out for meals. It means that every social occasion becomes very blown out of proportion. Peckham to Cap, yeah, to Catford every single day, which is, you know, it was like a two hour walk. Sorry, not every day, every time we went around for dinner, it was a two hour walk for me to get there. And so, yeah, it was just, it was, it was, it was awful. It was a really difficult time. But no, I think, I think he just didn't want to hear about it. Turned a blind eye, a lot of friends and people like that were worried, but obviously he knew about the bulimia, but he just thought it was a weird thing that I was doing um I also had really bad OCD at the time because when you have eating disorders you tend to have depression and or anxiety and OCD and controlling your calories is obviously a form of OCD because you get very paranoid about it

um and again he just didn't want to he didn't want to help he didn't want, he just didn't want to, he didn't want to help. He didn't want to, he just didn't want to get involved. Hence why he's my ex. I want to ask how you think you process all of that at the time. Cause I think so often what happens is when you're in a relationship like that, where, you know, you are being mistreated, it's very hard to actually see it for what it is when you're in it. And it's only in retrospect that I think you can recognise it. So how did you kind of come to the realisation that he wasn't treating you well? Did you do you think you were aware of that at the time? Well, this is the thing, I don't think I did view it as bad, because when it comes to a lot of my exes, which I'm sure we'll get on to, he was actually one of the better ones, you know, I've always kind of um being drawn to people that do put me down and a lot of that again like you were saying it's completely linked to self worth you know if you feel bad about yourself you're going to go towards people who make you

feel even shitter about yourself um so on the on you know in the grand scheme of things he didn't seem that bad um but yeah I mean yeah it it just it just destroys everything and it destroys your confidence you know it's it's horrible but I think most of us have been in a form of a toxic relationship to a degree um but towards the end it just got really nasty absolutely what is it about body confidence that you think is so integral to to finding success at love because I think you know this isn't really talked about in this way very much but I think if you like you said you know if you have low self-worth and obviously feeling feeling good about your body or feeling bad about your body is a huge part of your self-worth so if you don't have that how do

you think it does affect you in relationships do you think it's ever possible to have a successful relationship if your body confidence isn't good? I mean, that's really tricky. I think the body confidence thing is a bit of a tricky subject anyway, because, you know, the whole body positive thing is linked to the way that you look physically. look physically. And I think that it's it's very fine line between, you know, having good days, having bad days, but also putting all of the significance of your self worth on the way you look and body positivity still does that, you know, so it's Oh, love your soul, you're like, love this, love that. And what I'm really big on now is body neutrality. So it's how you feel internally, it's understanding that, you know, not every day is going to be a good day. You're going to have some days, especially if you're a woman where you feel really gross. You're going to have other days where you feel really great, probably when you ovulate. But it's just it's important to recognize that. But absolutely.

You know, if you're if you don't like yourself, why would your relationship work? Not only with yourself, but with other people. And as I've gotten older you know I'm 30 now so the older I get the the less I care about the way I look physically anyway and I know that's very easy for me to say because I'm in a you know profession where obviously my looks are important um but I but I yeah I I try really hard not to make put that at the forefront yeah I agree with you I think the term body neutrality is a much healthier and much more realistic way of approaching things it's definitely the approach that I adopt as well I mean you know like like any woman I've struggled with body image throughout my life as well and I just think actually it's I don't want to just dance in

front of the mirror naked every day and tell myself how great I look like I just want to feel good enough and you know I think for me actually exercising is something that really helps because I'm like look at all these cool things my body can do and it helps you see your body as more of like a physical thing as opposed to just a mirror reflection you know what I mean yeah 100% but you know being positive all the time that in itself is quite stressful because no one's positive all the time I mean it's bloody exhausting trying to be positive all the time and you know allowing yourself to feel certain things is healthy you know if you're if you're just covering it up with

a facade of of fake smiles and thinking you know oh if I smile today or if I chant or do something, then I'm going to feel great. That also isn't healthy. So it's really about understanding the way you feel and really getting to know your body and, you know, far more than just the way it looks. I know you mentioned what you said about how your ex-fiance mentioned something to you about he didn't like the way that you looked at that time. He thought you were too thin. But have you ever been body shamed by a partner before? And how have you dealt with that, if so? Because I think that's actually, unfortunately, quite a common experience for women. Yeah, well, I didn't. I mean, you know, the person you're with is obviously meant to look at you and think you're beautiful. But like I said, you know, I do, or used to, I think, tend to go towards partners who make me feel really bad about myself.

So, you know, there was one guy who said, all men love girls with a thigh gap. Oh, God. And I just thought, at the time, I just thought, really? But when, you know, again, when you have these eating disorders you absolutely feel that way um when I was 18 and you know this isn't something I've spoken about but I was in an abusive relationship with a guy that was a lot older who I mean it's awful but um turned out to be a pedophile um oh my god Charlie yeah I mean just atrocious and I mean the the comments and the put downs and the everything every everything was about the way I looked you know I was constantly fat constantly disgusting if you

leave no one's going to want you I mean all the all the typical stuff that you you know get with an abusive relationship but I genuinely thought to myself I can't be in one because I'm 18 so how can I possibly be in an abusive relationship but he was he was a bit older um I mean the most vile fucking individual and now I look back I just think you know what were you doing staying there but these people can really get underneath your skin and the other thing to remember as well is that women grow up thinking that the way they look is so important I mean we're taught that from, from, you know, an incredibly early age, that your value and your worth lies in the way that you look. And if you

fix this, then you'll find a boyfriend. If you do this, you'll, you know, get your dream job. If you do this, you'll become a model or whatever it is. I mean, how many girls are desperate now to be TikTokers or models, you know, and that in itself is quite sad um and I should know that because I was one of those women um but I genuinely had this idea that if I was thinner or if I looked this way or if I looked like this celebrity or whatever it was that I would somehow find happiness and find that feeling of content that I really desperately wanted. I'm so sorry you went through that and I mean really thank you for sharing that because I think it's so important that we talk about actually because I know we're talking about

body confidence but it's so important to talk about how when a partner is kind of constantly putting you down in that way and making you feel really low about yourself it can it can become a form of abusive and coercive control because then what you do is you then you then kind of use of coercive control, because then what you do is you then, you then kind of, you rely on that partner for your self worth. And they make you feel so bad about yourself, that in a way, it kind of can convince you, oh, well, I need to prove myself and prove my worth for you. And it can kind of keep you in this abusive relationship. And, you know, like you said, you were 18. And you thought you weren weren't an abusive relationship because you were an adult and I guess it just goes to show that it can affect it can affect anyone

and it's it's so important that we keep talking about that well I think so and you know it's only until I've gotten older that I have really admitted it to myself because I mean even speaking to you about it now it's the first time I've ever spoken about it because years on you still feel terrified you know it was like hitting and you know spitting or you know um one time he made me get on my hands and knees and and said to me to put my hands out in front of me on the carpet and and point out which finger he was going to stamp on and break and I remember just shaking like physically shaking and crying and thinking like I don't know what's going to happen and then he he looked away and he went look you're just making it up in your head all of all of this is made up in your head then you know he kind of locked me in a room

and the day after that's when I escaped with my dog and I and I left um but I mean it was just yeah it was atrocious but again you know more needs to be spoken about really with abusive relationships and stuff within teenagers because it's so important. But he destroyed my confidence. I mean, I can't even, that has affected me throughout my 20s. I actually don't think I was in love with him at all. I wasn't in love with him, but I was so desperate for his approval, like you were saying, and so desperate to be loved. Yeah, it's very complicated. Yeah, it's incredibly complicated,

particularly when you have someone who is gaslighting you and making you genuinely believe that you are making it up and that you are crazy and that actually, you know, this is a very nice man because I think what tends to happen

with abusive partners is they're not abusive. I well they are abusive the whole time but they're not necessarily outwardly cruel the whole time and they can kind of flip-flop between this really aggressive obviously abusive behavior and then this more subtle kind of more love-bombing manipulative behavior where they're telling you you're the best person in the world, and, you know, giving you showering you with compliments. And it's that kind of dynamic that unfortunately, means so many women can't recognize when when they are in an abusive relationship, because you hang on to the good bits. 100% 100%. And, you know, he had a flatmate who was a woman who just point blank. I mean, I remember going to him being like, I'm really scared. And she point blank refused to to say that he was.

Well, he's never been abusive to me. So why would it be a thing? And so, you know, you genuinely think that you're going crazy, especially when you have comments like him saying, look, it's all in your head or, you know, and that kind of thing. But, yeah, I just the fear, honestly, even now, I feel now I feel like you know weird talking about it because the fear that you feel I remember him saying to me if you leave this room I will fucking come and kill you I'll kill your mum you know blah blah blah and something within me was like I need to escape so I grabbed the dog grabbed my stuff and just ran and I to this day I mean the taxi ride from there to to Houston um is genuinely one of the most scariest things that I can you know recall really but yeah love bombing I mean that that also that's something

that I'm trying to understand um because in dating especially you know I I love the romance and I love you know all these things but again it's, it's like, where's the line between being very complimentary towards someone in the beginning versus showering them with all these wonderful comments? And that's something that I have to really understand. And actually, speaking of abuse, a guy that I met on Hinge during lockdown, actually,

just the weirdest person like um called me up out of the blue well started off love bombing constant messages of affection how beautiful I was how this how that and something within me did think it was a tiny bit odd but also you know I think all of us like the attention to a degree and then this one day he calls me up at like on on a Monday night like 10 o'clock at night and just goes into this abusive tirade about how I'm a whore how I'm this how I'm that how I'm you know think I'm better than everyone how I mean I don't even know this person it was just bizarre but there are so many men like this you know um and that's also what's a bit worrying god it's so it's so worrying I mean particularly having been through what you've gone through I just I can't

imagine what what that's like to to deal with I mean how did you pick yourself back up from from that abusive relationship you know did you did you seek support from any charities did you talk to friends and family because I think there's so much shame around that kind of stuff isn't there and it can actually be really difficult to open up to people I was really ashamed I didn't want to talk to my family about it I still really haven't um a few of my friends know about it and I did go to a counselor um afterwards but again you know it's like when these I couldn't look at people in the eye I couldn't like you know talk to people properly and it really did have affected my relationship with men on the whole um so really like my 20s has been a learning curve not only in self-love but also in what to

uh allow in a relationship you know and understanding boundaries and understanding what you're comfortable with and understanding that you don't have to put up with this kind of thing you know um that love is is not painful um but you know I mean I do look at some of the choices that I made in my 20s regarding men I just roll my eyes because it's just insane like the you know the situations you put yourself in or or the behavior you allow as a fizz member you can look forward to free data big savings on plans and having your unused data roll over to the following month every month at fizz you always get more for your money terms

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So I read your book, which I'm obviously a big fan of. I told you that in the beginning oh thank you so much loved it and there's a section where you talk about being the cool girl and I was so I so desperately wanted to be accepted by by men or whoever I was in a relationship with that I tried to become this cool girl you know a girl who didn't give a fuck if they wanted to talk to this girl or if they wanted to um sleep around or if they girl, you know, a girl who didn't give a fuck if they wanted to talk to this girl, or if they wanted to sleep around, or if they wanted to, you know, talk down to me or make comments about my body or whatever it was, because I want to be cool. Oh, you know, yes, say what you want. Oh, you know, yeah. Do whatever you want, be whoever you want. Yeah, it was awful. And actually, sorry sorry I know I'm rambling right now um

uh there was someone that I was going out with last year and this was just the weird even to this day it's one of the weirdest relationships I've ever been in because I genuinely thought we were going out but he was seeing millions of girls on the side um and I I mean I thought I fancied this guy so much I just thought how wonderful he was and how perfect he was and again you know the the kind of gaslighting um the manipulative behavior so um for Valentine's Day he'd buy me these huge bouquets of flowers and then just disappear off to Paris for a few days and then ask to spend a weekend with me and then and then say I need space or like if I he'd ask for a hug and then go but that's too much affection and um I mean it

was just bizarre and then it turned out that he was sleeping with you know women that I knew he had the thing for models he was constantly seeing people and learning to cut that out was honestly a step forward towards um not allowing this behavior and I actually bought an amazing book I can't remember who the author was but it was called uh Mr Unavailable Mr yeah hang on what was it yeah Mr Unavailable and the Fallback Girl which basically talks about emotionally unavailable men or women and why you are attracted to them and a lot of the time it's because you're emotionally unavailable as well so I think that there are quite a few things within my you know relationship history where I've also been a bit standoffish I'm sure a bit because of what I've had in the past but also you know just a tiny bit mental but yeah I mean I um

that in itself was a massive wake-up call. I cannot believe that that guy was seeing so many other women on the side um um how did you find out about that and did you then confront him because I feel like it feels like a scene in a film where you want to do like the other woman kind of thing with Cameron Diaz and Kate Upton and that whole elaborate plan where they confront him but it's actually it's also obviously incredibly painful so how do you how do you go about that or do you just think it's not worth it and just walk away okay well first of all my gut instinct from day one said this guy is not right for you and I chose to ignore it every single day, I felt

nervous. I wanted him to call. If he didn't call, it would ruin my entire day. I felt constantly on edge. I recognized that when I was with him, I was actually on edge. And there were nights where I just wouldn't sleep because I was just so anxious. I just didn't feel content. And I do think that if you're in a happy relationship, you do feel we have we really have to stop this idea that if you get these butterflies and all these you know um romantic feelings that that those are normal because actually I think a healthy relationship is when you feel yourself and where you feel secure so anyway it's around here's one day and um I found makeup on the sheets orange on the sheets and I thought the sheets. And I thought, oh, my God. I just thought, oh, my God, oh, my God.

So I took a photo. I sent it to my friend. And they said, well, it must be your makeup. And I said, no, no. And my gut knew it wasn't me because, like, A, I don't wear orange makeup. But also, I'm very pale. But also, I just thought, no. Like, I just thought, no, please not again.

Like, the one guy that I really like, I really hope this isn't going to happen to me again. To cut a very long story short, this is a bit of drama, but I was going to a big London party that night. And I was putting my bag in the cloakroom. And my agent went into the party and a girl who shall remain nameless went over to her and out of absolutely nowhere. And I'm just, you know, reciting what she's what my agent said to me said. Hi, Jordan. Do you know that I'm seeing the blood? And Jordan went, hey, and she goes, blah, blah, blah. And Jordan goes, give me a second. I'm just going to be right back.

So I was putting my bag in the cloakroom ready to stay at his that night. And Jordan, my agent, comes over to me and goes, this, I feel so uncomfortable right now. This is one of the most awkward things that I'm going to have to say. But is the guy you're seeing? And I said, yeah, why? And she goes, OK. She's like, I've just had the very weirdest thing. why and she goes okay she's like I've just had the very weirdest thing this girl has come over to me and said out of literally nowhere I'm seeing but in the way she said it it was like oh um hi Jordan

do you know that I'm seeing and in this really bitchy tone so I was just like like what like and I knew this girl through acquaintances. Anyway, to cut a very long story short, obviously that night was ruined. I didn't go to his. I messaged him being like, I just, please stay away from me. Like, I can't, I can't be fucked with this.

This is just the weirdest story. I still laugh about it. It's so bizarre. This girl's then texting Jordan, my agent, you know, he's saying, oh saying I was just so scared to go to Charlie and you know she seemed so intimidating and I really don't think I'm that much of an intimidating person I didn't talk to him for two days he kept calling calling calling please call me please call me I just said no like not not interested and then on the weekend he said to me

look please meet up with me you're going to be so happy with what I've got to say. Just please, like, you know, please meet up with me. So I go, I travel an hour across London to go to this pub in Hampstead. We sit down and he goes, well, first of all, I've broken it up with the nurse. So instantly I just thought he's come to his senses. He really, you know, this is just a thing that we've been through in the beginning of our relationship. He's now ready to settle down great and he turns around and he goes but actually I'm just not I'm not interested in having a relationship with anyone um I just want to be really honest

with you about that and I just thought what because I mean you know the flowers the the dates the introducing me to his friends his parents knew about me his mum had me on Instagram she still comments on my stuff like like it was just so bizarre I was like why would you ever do all these things if you didn't want a relationship um anyway he said he then said to me that this girl had known about me for a while she'd also wanted an exclusive relationship with him and about two days before this kicked off um she said look you know I really want to be in a relationship with you and he said no I'm not ready for it and she said why are you seeing someone else and he goes yeah Charlie Howard and so what I think is that she was used you know when she

came over to my agent at the event I think it was like a way of being really catty um but I mean yeah what the hell it sounds like it's it sounds like she was trying to like, she was annoyed at him for, for doing this situation to both of you. And she maybe thought that that would be the way that he would then stop seeing you. So he would become exclusive with her. A hundred percent. And it just made me feel just, you know, I mean, God, I felt like shit. Yeah.

So after that, I was like, I'm having a year to myself. So actually COVID was quite good because for a year I just didn't really date anyone you know I was like I'm just gonna do my own thing get to know myself had that amazing book um and just really tried to understand why I was going for the same sorts of people it's really interesting I mean I first of all I found that whole story incredibly triggering because I know so many men who have done that to me and my friends and it's just awful but the a few things spring to mind okay so one have you heard of the term soft boy no well no I've seen it on like okay so so this is I've actually just written a piece about this so this is like it's a type of fuck boy but instead of someone who's like kind of

brazenly gonna mess you around and like is a bit of a player in quotation marks this is like, it's a type of fuckboy, but instead of someone who's like kind of brazenly going to mess you around and like is a bit of a player in quotation marks, this is the kind of guy who basically purports himself to be a feminist, will buy you flowers, will give you books, will kind of shower you with affection and make you feel like they really like you. And then actually just kind of withdraw and be sleeping with someone else and be messing you around and not replying to your text and then all of a sudden they kind of like ghost you or they say they don't want to be with you but it's the kind of guy that

convinces you that they're really into you do all these nice things and then they kind of just actually go away and there's an element of superiority about them there's often a power dynamic as well um whether it's age or profession or something um so those are all the things that kind of come to mind when you're telling me that story oh well actually that's really interesting because in the pub when he said to me you know I've broken up with her but also I don't have a relationship he started he went into the bathroom started crying and I was like okay weird anyway because he was a bit emotional and by this point I had like I hadn't eaten all day because I was like okay weird anyway because he was a bit emotional and by this point I had like I hadn't eaten all day because I was so heartbroken I'd had like two vodka lemonades

I'm such a lightweight and it just went straight to my head so he goes so he goes what do you want to do for the rest of the day and stupid me thought you know what let's go back because there was a part of me that thought you know I'm gonna make him want me I'm gonna make him want to be with me so go back to his flat and I still can't believe this as well. I mean, like, literally the audacity. We were in his flat watching this documentary, and there was a part on it from Florida, this location in Florida.

And he goes, oh, yeah, I went there on spring break. Yeah, I fucked so many dogs on that trip. And I went, excuse me? Like, I mean, that in itself was like the most disgusting way to a talk about women but also after like the the morning or you know early afternoon that we bloody had to say that then he says to me um would you uh mind maybe coming around here one day and tidying up my wardrobe and then as I leave I said you know what I'm gonna go and I'm literally got some self-respect and like went to the front door and he goes Charlie Howard it's been real bro

and puts his hand up like to like fist bump me and I just thought like what the I mean like the like the biggest headbutt oh my god that's horrible that's horrible I hope you got over that quite quickly because I guess if it's so, and he's so obviously such an arsehole, it's quite easy to maybe move on from it. Actually, no, because again, it was just but I did do something called no contact. So in this in this Mr. Unavailable book, it says that with these sorts of people, you just have to just cut contact. And that means blocking them, it means deleting their number, it means deleting pictures of them. And this was like, I don't want to rip the plaster off. But you know what? I did it. And actually, it was so much better for me in the long term.

The only thing I regret doing is like last summer, I messaged him being like, look, I unblocked him. And I went, look, you know, I hope you understand that I had to do that for my own mental health because you weren't that very nice to me. And he was like oh you know so good to hear oh it's made my day hearing from you oh let's stay in touch have I heard from him again have I fuck so since then since last July I haven't heard a word from him and also do I want him in my life no absolutely not so actually you know you kind of did me a favor so so where are you at with all of this now I know that you you said you're in a relationship now and how how do you feel like your past experiences have informed that and are you kind of consciously making very different decisions in love than you were previously

yeah so I am making like completely different decisions um I am seeing someone super happy um unlike anything really that I you know unlike anyone that I've been with before, it's a very different dynamic. So it's, you know, I'm not trying to, I'm trying to take things slowly, but definitely in the beginning, I was very, very standoffish, um, because of my past experiences, obviously, and the guy before, but I was just like, no, I'm not getting hurt again my guards are all up and then one day he just turned around he said look you know why don't you just let things go and just try to let things happen organically and just and just you know but yeah you know I am very

protective of myself and I've learned so much about myself in the last year especially and just what I will and will not stand for um so yeah I mean it's very early days but I'm super happy and he really is lovely so that that's important um but yeah I mean god I it's very hard to kind of unlearn 10 plus years of behavior um and so really learning what boundaries are and learning to put my foot down those are super important yeah super important and it goes back to what you said before about not chasing those butterflies and chasing that kind of relationship that keeps you on your toes and keeps you really excited all the time and actually learning that you know like you said real lasting love it it

shouldn't make you feel insecure it shouldn't make you feel like you're questioning yourself you should just feel secure and calm and confident and like you have a team you know 100% that's what it's about it's about partnership it's not about power struggles like you were saying earlier it's not about one-upmanship it's about you know coming together and and that's what's important but I mean yeah like I said in the beginning I was very standoffish I'm trying to really learn to not be like that um but he's been quite understanding about that as well finally I um I actually just looked at my questions I haven't asked you anything that I was planning on asking you about but I'll ask you one of them um you um because I'm quite interested in this on the topic of kind of female sexuality, and obviously you still model, so you post photographs of yourself on Instagram.

And so there's a debate around that, particularly with regards to someone like Emily Ratajkowski, whereas, you know, she'll post those photos and she'll say that it makes her feel empowered and it's a feminist statement. And people criticize her for that because they say that, you know, it's not a feminist statement and it's this feminist statement and people criticize her for that because they say that you know it's it's not a feminist statement and it's this whole idea of choice feminism and you know

Emily would would say I mean she might have changed her tact on it but previously from what I have seen someone like Emily would say you know it's it's my choice it's my body I can do what I want and a lot of women say that I'm interested to hear where you stand on that debate because I'm I'm not sure to be honest with you I I'm conflicted on what I think about that so what do you think I'm a feminist through and through I worship women I love women I love being a woman I wouldn't I never want to be a man in my life I believe that feminism isn't about telling other women how to live their lives. I wouldn't necessarily wear a headscarf. I've learned through meetings with, you know, Muslim women or whatever, that actually that empowers them.

That is very different to perhaps the way that I would live my life. However, that's their choice. I personally find it empowering, especially after, you know, having eating disorders and having, you know having shitty comments to me about my body throughout my whole life. I find it empowering taking photos of my body. I love referencing the 50s. I love looking at old Hollywood film stars and especially pinups. I don't have a problem with Playboy. I've met glamour models in the past whose lives are basically being completely ripped from underneath their feet because other women decided that that was offensive and that that brought feminism down.

And I think being a woman, there are so many layers to it there are so many ways of being a woman and what I think is amazing is that we can have brains we can also have beauty we can be naked if we want to we can cover up if we want to that's what's wonderful about being a woman is that we have these choices especially nowadays I really agree with you to be completely honest and it's just I I understand where the whole choice feminism thing comes from and why people have a problem with that because obviously it's not that simple to just say it's my body it's my choice and whatever but I actually think if you personally find it empowering to do that then who the hell is gonna tell you that it's not empowering like

I actually I think it should be about autonomy and having autonomy over your body particularly when women have spent years feeling like they should feel shame around their bodies and shame around their sexuality and I think if you see a woman in the public eye or not actually embracing that and feeling happy about her body and wanting to show off and finding that kind of somehow you know that makes her feel empowered and confident, that then that's not something we should be criticizing. Well, I don't either, especially because we live in a world that loves to tear women down, absolutely loves it. And, you know, I also think why, why are we so anti women wanting

to be sexy or wanting to be desired by men actually for that fact you know like Kim Kardashian gets a lot of stick or these women you know that love to flaunt their bodies get so much shit for it and I just think why like just because you don't want to do that doesn't mean they can't some women love it love getting attention from men um or they love you know not necessarily fitting that male idolized image, I wouldn't say, but they just, they, it makes them feel good about themselves. And I just think in a world that just loves to put women down, it's just one less thing to worry about. But feminism, as we know, is a very complicated, you know, subject with tons of layers within it. So I completely understand why people

get offended. It just blows my mind sometimes that people take it upon themselves to to force other women how to behave yeah I completely agree that's just as bad as being a misogynist ironically so so you think you know that you're doing um well by women and actually you're not because you're taking choices away and feminism is about having choices right it is time for our lessons in love segment so this is the part of the show where I ask every guest to share something that they have learned from their previous relationship experiences I feel like you've dropped several lessons during the episode Charlie do you have do you have any left um I think I'm going to talk about boundaries because having healthy boundaries is super

important it's you know can come down to having your own space during the day it can come down to wanting to have a night off in the week or you know going out with your friends or doing whatever it can come down to you not wanting them to talk to other women it can be it can be whatever it is but it's so important that you lay those foundations out from the beginning and again going back to the cool girl thing I think in the past I've been very you know cautious about trying to not piss men off or trying to piss my partners off because I wanted them to like me and actually it's a two-way street it's very much about meeting halfway and there are some things that you're going to have to sacrifice for them as well perhaps um but that's just what being

in a relationship's about and it's just about having respect for each other and that for me is something that I've absolutely learned and that is so important and you know hopefully this relationship will work out if it doesn't work, you know, I'll go into another relationship having those boundaries there and knowing my worth. And I think that everyone should absolutely go into a relationship knowing what they will and will not stand for. Yeah, I completely agree. And it's so important to feel like you can express those boundaries early on.

We spoke about this in the previous episode of the podcast and about how important it is to actually shatter that cool girl kind of mystique and just be upfront about what you need and what you like and you don't have to be you know didactic about it but you just have to be very clear about what works for you and what doesn't and don't let anyone make you feel compromised in in any way but you know you have to you have to strike a balance between like you said like learning to do things that your partner wants you wants you to do that you might not necessarily feel comfortable with and you know you have to you have to it's a balancing act but I think you have to be quite clear in your mind about the things that are you know like if you said if you need time in the week to yourself and you need you know that one

night a week or however many nights it is just to be on your own and have your own time, then you have to make sure that your partner facilitates that. That's it for today. Thank you so much for listening. We've spoken about some difficult subjects today. So it's important for me to point out that you do not have to wait for an emergency situation to find help. If domestic abuse is happening to you, it's important to tell someone and remember you're not alone. If you need support, you can call the Free Phone National Domestic Abuse Helpline run by Refuge on 0808 2000 247. They'll give you free information anytime, day or night. If you're a new listener to Millennial Love, you can subscribe to us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify,

Acast or anywhere else. Please do comment and leave us a rating too so that more people can find us. And do also pre-order Millennial Love the book, which is out next week on Thursday the 8th of July with Fourth Estate. I'm very excited for you to read it. Also, if you missed our bonus episode last week, I shared an exclusive extract from the Millennial Love audiobook. So do go back and listen to that if you missed our bonus episode last week, I shared an exclusive extract from the Millennial Love audiobook, so do go back and listen to that if you fancy. Keep up with everything to do with the show on Instagram.

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