Love Lives - Beam Me Up Softboi’s Iona David examines the different types of softbois on dating apps

Episode Date: September 15, 2022

This week on Millennial Love, we’re thrilled to be joined by writer, journalist and creator of the iconic @beam_me_up_softboi Instagram account, Iona David.Iona unpacks what it means to be a softboi, how to spot one, and why we should be wary of dating them. She also recounts her own dating experiences which, yes, might have included one or two softbois…Iona’s book, Is This Love Or Dopamine?: A Deeply Unofficial Study of Dating in the Digital Age, is out now.You can watch this episode and more on Independent TV: https://www.independent.co.uk/tv/millennial-loveCheck out Millennial Love on all major podcast platforms and Independent TV, and keep up to date @Millennial_Love on Instagram and TikTok.Support this show http://supporter.acast.com/millenniallove. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

As a Fizz member, you can look forward to free data, big savings on plans, and having your unused data roll over to the following month. Every month. At Fizz, you always get more for your money. Terms and conditions for our different programs and policies apply. Details at fizz.ca. This episode of Millennial Love contains themes that some viewers may find distressing. Hello and welcome to Millennial Love, a podcast from The Independent on everything to do with love, sexuality, identity and more. You may notice that we are not in our usual glamorous studio backdrop with beautiful fake vine leaves and fairy lights, so apologies for that. Instead we have this gorgeous substitute plant in our office uh we will be back in a few

weeks in our usual office spot it's just that we're moving offices right now so we are in a temporary place for the next few weeks but that doesn't mean that the podcast is stopping this week i am very excited to be joined by writer and now author iona david who runs the popular beam me up soft boy account on Instagram. If you don't already follow it, you absolutely have to do that right now. But today she joins me on the show to discuss what a soft boy actually is and how running her account led to the publication of her first book, Is This Love or Dopamine? book, Is This Love or Dopamine? Hello, Iona. How are you? Hi, I'm good. Thank you for having me.

Thank you so much for being here. And now we talk a lot about soft boys on this show, as regular listeners will know. But for those who need a refresher, could you start us off by explaining what a soft boy actually is and I know that you talk about a few different types in the book. Yeah well there's there's like a very general definition of a soft boy which is what I thought it was when I started the account which is just any like alternative man who presents himself alternatively and like it's just like he's wears docs or like vans or like it's it's like a very white it casts a really wide net like the general soft boy um trope but then the account has kind of led to an ex an expose of like more sinister kind of it's where they use like emotional awareness and like emotional

language and like they just try they're just um basically that the ones that end up on the account are the ones that like fuck people over but do it in like a really like faux academic like um unnecessarily wordy way I still can't think of like a succinct definition for it after I've done so many of these podcasts but that's about as close as I can get and I really love the way that you talk about the different types in the book one of the ones that you talk about is the sort of the nice guy and yeah like so the nice guy is like there's like it's like a big like section of the soft boy because and the nice guy is like always existed um it's like yeah why am I being nice to women when I'm not getting anything in return which obviously means that you're not nice um and it's

existed like forever like Ross Geller from Friends I think is the original nice guy and he has a lot of overlap with the soft boy because he's like I'm so nice and sensitive and like I listen to the Smiths like why doesn't she love me like that guy in 500 Days of Summer um there's like a big overlap between the nice guy and the soft boy for sure and do you think do you think the issue with that the the kind of the nice guy thing, is that when they do behave badly, because obviously no man is, like just no woman, is immune to behaving badly. When they do, it's almost like they are never going to recognise it in themselves

because they have framed themselves as a good guy. Yeah, exactly, exactly. And it's like it's so easy to get I don't know I have been thinking about a lot when writing the book like it's um it is a thin line to walk between being a nice guy capital n and just being a nice person like a kind person it's um it's but I think if you ever reach the point where you have to say I'm so nice why is this happening to me then you can maybe take a step back because it is as well the nice guy is really interesting because it's quite a it's kind of you can um quite easily go down that road and end up as like a more like dangerous sort of man like if you talk to other men on reddit for

example I talk about this in the book and if you find a forum of men who are all like we're all so nice why is this happening to us and then you're like oh maybe it's women that are the problem and then if you go down that road it can end up quite uh scary quite quickly which is just like terrifying so we try to avoid the nice guys yeah i love some of the um because obviously throughout the book you include screen grabs of some of the messages that you get sent because all of the posts on beam me up soft boy are screen grabs of conversations from soft boys with presumably your followers and um one of the screen grabs that i love that you use for the nice guy was um a guy sending a message to a girl, I'm guessing on

a dating app or on a text saying, just a small town girl. And then the woman replies, living in a lonely world. And then the guy replies, well, I know this is kind of weird and pushy, ha ha, but would you like to have sex with me? I'm not a creep or a pervert, just a genuine guy. I would treat you with respect and the sex would be good. I can even make you squirt if the connection is right. Ha ha. I will not judge you or think you're easy. So yeah, excuse me if I come across as a little uncalibrated,

but I think you're attractive. So what do you think? Smiley face. Ha ha. And then no reply for a couple of hours. And then she took the midnight train going anywhere from him again um i love this so much um apart from the obvious like strangeness of him going straight into asking this woman to sleep with him what is it about that message that makes him

a kind of archetypal nice guy is it is it the it's is it almost the like ha ha's and the the smiley faces yeah it's all of the like pretending to be all nice and genuine but like it's really interesting because that is from reddit that big body of text is like a copy and pasteable thing that men send to each other and say like try this out on a dating app because I've had it sent in to me loads of times like from different people so this guy came up with this template and he said if you're not having success with women try this because then they'll know that you're nice but obviously the act of like searching for a template and using it like I don't think that's anyone's definition of nice oh my god that's

bizarre I can't believe that um and then the other well it's almost it's manipulative and it's deceptive and it's completely inauthentic um yeah also like coercive um but there's another figure that you use um where the guy says well ain't you just perfect kiss I seriously mean that smiley face kiss and then they reply sorry just being nice kiss and then the woman replies thanks and then he replies fuck off I love that so much yes it's literally a facade it's, you're being nice, but you're obviously like, I don't know. I just put,

but like, that's the, like the ones that I get sent in, they are just really funny. Like the comedic timing of that is just impeccable. Like, it's like you're reading from like a script or something. It's just,

you've got to laugh at these things. Cause like there are so many, well, not so many, it's a small percentage of men. I want to make that clear. It's a small percentage of men I want to make that clear it's a small percentage of men that are like this but like there are more than you would think out there and it's just it's horrifying but you know it's funny yeah it's funny how similar they are um

and how in denial about they are how much of it do you think comes from a degree of narcissism then because I think to me it sounds like a lot of that is what's fueling this kind of behavior because it's like they for example the men who maybe send those screen that kind of like template that that they are advised to send it's like it doesn't become about the woman they're pursuing it becomes about like almost winning that woman and like gratifying their own desires and like proving to themselves and perhaps the other men in those Reddit forums

that they sort of like won that woman over. You know, I think that's- No, definitely. It is narcissism for sure. Like it's just like low level narcissism thinking that you are owed something from this woman do you think a soft boy can ever recognize the fact that they're a soft boy oh 100% I get loads of loads of men being like I'm a soft boy but and then but then also on the good side that's

like men being like am I a soft boy and I'm like I don't know and like I'm not gonna check I'm not I don't have like I don't offer that as a. I can't like scan your profile and like tell whether you're a soft boy or not. Men being like, I was a soft boy, but I like using your account as like a indicator of what not to do, which is very encouraging to hear. It's one third men, two third women, according to Instagram who follow my account so I think because I'm very clear on it because and I want to stress on this podcast as well the different types of soft boy there is a wholesome soft boy one who just is alternative and like has this like has the same music taste as you he's just like the indie boy but like isn't emotionally weird and will not fuck you over and that's most of them and

I think that there are a lot of them that follow that page and you know you can be self-aware you can say in the book like if we're using soft boy as a gender neutral term I can definitely say that I'd be a soft boy I've definitely done some kind of some of that shit before I've definitely messaged people like oh you haven't heard of this film especially when I was younger um I think there's a bit of a soft boy in all of us yeah it's about it's it's like that kind of underlying smugness about like subversive parts of culture isn't it I think that's so much of what defines it yeah literally I write about in the book about like an early instance of soft boyism that I did which is when I like heard Only Girl in the World by Rihanna

played on the radio like for maybe for the first time I was like oh this song is so underground and cool and like I'm the only one who knows it and then like obviously everyone started listening to it because it's Rihanna this is when I was in like year seven and everyone started listening to it I was like what the fuck like you don't appreciate it like I do um and like yeah you see a lot of that behavior with like men and radio head now, except they're like grown men. And I was like 12. So it's like an immature,

like gatekeeping as well is another kind of soft boy. Yeah, I liked that you spoke about gatekeeping. I think there's a lot of that. I see a lot of that with the men I know with like foreign films, indie foreign films. Oh my God, don't even get me started yeah even within like it's rampant and like you know they might not even know they're doing anything wrong but it's like well above anything else I mean it's it's funny to hear

someone feel very proud about the fact that they have read a book that you've never heard or have all seen a film that you've never seen, when obviously we're all different and have different life experiences. And I'm sure there are plenty of things that, you know, you have seen and read that the other person wouldn't have. So it is funny when someone thinks that that makes them somehow superior. But above anything else, it's just not a very nice way to behave, because it's like you get off from embarrassing the other person by making them feel inferior and I suppose if we're talking about the darker side of soft voice which I will come

onto it then sort of becomes a form of obtaining control because it's about sort of asserting your authority and your supremacy and then there are some people who would react to being told, like, oh, you've never seen that film, by being, like, really embarrassed and then being desperate to please the other person. And then thinking, oh, God, you know what? I am inferior. Like, I should see that film. Why haven't I seen that film? Do you know what I mean? Yeah.

The sort of psychological thing. Exactly. exactly and it's like because it's content like a lot of this stuff is films that are like designed by designed by written by and like designed for men like have like Quentin Tarantino films or whatever and they get like some men get upset when women like it and they they are quite shocked when women like it but then if women but then also like on the flip side there's like content that's designed for women and if you are like open about the fact that you enjoy like rom-coms or whatever then that will be met with the same kind of disdain and it's like it's almost like we can't win it's like yeah it's funny the kind of cultural um like polarization that I think we subscribe to and the like the levels of

intelligence that you attach to certain things like I know that you know I dated a guy once who thought that my obsession with reality tv was really basic in quotation marks and you know used to make fun of me for loving love Island and watching Love Island all the time. And I want to say to him, like, some of the smartest women I know are obsessed with reality TV. And if you're looking down on those women, like that's on you. And that says a lot more about you than it does about the women engaging with reality TV in an intellectual way. Tell me a bit about how you started the account and what made you want to start it? How quickly did it grow? I wanted to start it because I just like at its core it's

about like having a laugh and laughing even though it might not seem that way and it gets quite dark sometimes so we were just messing around on my friend's phone in uni and sending her then boyfriend like dumb text being like say you love me um and he replied like watch this short film it's sick and then he sent her a picture of this weed and was like check out this rare weed lol and I was like this is getting screenshotted 100% um and then I just put it on my Instagram I was like send in your other indie indie soft boy screenshots but back then it was a lot more wholesome because there was a lot less people sending stuff in and I just posted anything that I thought was funny like um it would just be like I'll just go into a record store shop to look and look around at some records which obviously

now like I don't know I would post it I'd be like lol but like then it very quickly spiralled into like a men behaving badly kind of thing. How long ago was this? This was like four years ago. You were posting it on your own account or you set up a dedicated account straight away after that weed post? I had another meme account back in the day that was pretty popular. Oh my God, that's such an embarrassing screen grab the sound bite it's called dank memes for home counties teens it's still

about and I like um posted it on there and then enough I had a story series on there and then enough people sent them in that I was like I gotta make a page because someone's gonna do it at some point and now at this point like obviously the book there's a lot about soft boys in there and stuff but I would say it's more just like men behaving badly in general um because some of the funniest ones okay like I just I can't not post them but they're definitely not a soft boy they're just like weird behavior yeah well that's the thing I think as we've become more familiar with the soft boy terminology it has become more aligned with men behaving badly because like you said I think initially it was almost like embraced and it was like oh this is a wholesome type of man who is

just kind and gentle and is the antithesis to the stereotypical alpha male and isn't trying to prove anything and isn't dominated by ego and it was like seen as a good thing and then I think what happened is certain men started adopting that persona or people who have that persona and then almost kind of hid behind it to get away with anything badly it's like the internet reacts in things reacts to things in ways that are unpredictable so like it was a soft boy it was like wholesome and good you're like way back like back before the account even that's what it was known as and then if like people have such different opinions on the internet that if I posted a a wholesome soft boy screenshot people would be just as savage and mean in the comments

as if you'd like emotionally abuse someone so you can't really do that there's no and so I and then people would be like what is a soft boy and I would try and make the spectrum clear of like wholesome on one end bad on the other end but then that's that's nuance and the internet just fucking hates that stuff it really hates nuance and it can't deal with it and like so now I just it has now the definition has evolved like with the community that follows beer now it basically is like an insult to be called a soft boy. Even if I don't personally think it's an insult, that's kind of what the internet has conceded. This episode is brought to you by Google Pixel. I'm Jessi Cruikshank. I host the number one comedy podcast called Phone a Friend. I also have three kids. I need help making every day easier.

So I switched to Google Pixel. It's a phone powered by Gemini, your personal AI assistant. Gemini can help you summarize your unread emails, suggest what to make with the food in your fridge, and it helped me achieve a family photo where everyone is smiling at the camera. I didn't think it was possible, but it is with Google Pixel 9. Learn more at store.google.com. Whether you're in your running era, Pilates era, or yoga era, dive into Peloton workouts that work with you. From meditating at your kid's game to mastering a strength program, they've got everything you need to keep knocking down your goals.

No pressure to be who you're not. Just workouts and classes to strengthen who you are. So no matter your era, make it your best with Peloton. Find your push. Find your power. Peloton. Visit Peloton at onepeloton.ca. So tell me a bit about the account and like why you think it's grown so much and why you think it has become so popular because you've got over, what is it, 600,000 followers now?

Yeah, it just keeps growing, which I think is in part to do with Soft Boys, but partly because we've only just had this like ability to screenshot conversations, which is a bit like 1984-ish if you think about it for too long but people do find it really interesting it's kind of in the same way as like reality tv you're just snooping on other people's business and seeing what people get up to um which I think is yeah it's a new thing and people just find it really interesting um and also it's it's that that's that's part of it but also it's kind of like it's kind of become like a bit of a guide in a way which is unintentional on my part but it's like an example of like bad behavior and like what you should tolerate and what you should not tolerate and like just people like knowing that they're not alone

and being able to laugh at it is a big tonic for like men being shit which has always been the case and will always be the case and how many screenshots do you get sent like normally on a day like between 50 and 100 wow so it's I've become quite good at just like yeah scanning through them I should probably like if I spend loads of time looking at all of them I'd love to make like a graph out of like keywords that people have been using on stuff I think that'd be really interesting like the what there are some of them that are just like horrible behavior some of them are so horrible that I don't post them some Some of them, I'm just like, this is not funny, obviously. This is just a huge red flag and you shouldn't accept.

If anyone starts to do this in your life, you need to get rid of them. Now, talk to me a bit about the book, because that obviously goes into a lot more than just Soft Boys and kind of looks at the modern dating scene from a wider lens. When you sat down to start writing it, what kind of things did you want to include and what made you want to look at the sort of online dating landscape as a whole um I kind of I didn't really realize at the time but I did study communicate like media and communications

at uni so that is kind of running through it's just about how we communicate now that everything's online um through the lens of relationships but I knew that I wanted to make it like very light-hearted because I actually know I don't know if I'm allowed to swear on this podcast I know very little about um about online not about online dating about like well yeah I don't know about relationships I'm not particularly good at them um I so I just was like let's have a look at what other people have done that through the screenshots that have got it really wrong and kind of build a kind of how-to guide based off the opposite of what they do um which is an interesting way to do a book and I didn't realize how yes it was it was a lot writing we made it to the end I love um the disclaimer you have a few disclaimers peppered

throughout the book and one of them when you're talking about soft boys and fuck boys I'm going to read it out because I think this is great and also it makes me wish I had disclaimers in my book um these labels apply almost exclusively to men I have to keep myself entertained writing this book and taking the piss out of my fellow women does not quite hit the same high as dragging men through the mud if you are looking for content that neatly judges and categorizes women instead of men feel free to check out literally any blog or podcast with the words menaced or men's rights in it see georgian peterson joe rogan etc do you get um do you get a lot of messages from men sort of complaining and being like hey surely women can be soft boys

why is it soft boys this is sexist the other way or do you get a lot of that i get a fair amount of it but from speaking to some other like vaguely feminist leaning accounts no more than any account like that gets um i got an email the other day from a man which this really got to me because it was like a 50 year old man who's raising a daughter he was like women like you like put more fear in the future of my daughter than um something really bad and I was like oh my god how did you find my account yeah you're a 50 year old man from like Chicago what's going on did you reply to him do you have engaged you reply to him? No, you can't reply to these people. I love that. In the intro to the book on this note,

you write about, you know, the sort of popular phrase, men are trash, which I must admit I do use quite regularly myself. But I think there's been a lot of talk recently about why we shouldn't really use that phrase. And you write in the book how this is not a book exclusively about men being trash. So why was it important for you to spell that out? And do you think we should stop using that phrase?

I don't think we should stop using that phrase. But I think that I knew that I know that there's a lot of men reading my book like I've heard a lot from men reading my book it's not it's it's really not about that because I don't know in few like I love what writing about very general stuff but like also very specific so there's like loads of chapters on emojis and like no there's one chapter with which goes into loads of different emojis and like a man would enjoy reading that like it doesn't talk about like misogyny within emoji usage um so I just wanted to not scare them off um so that they would keep reading and then then we get into it like a few chapters in and then I'm like oh here's how not to be a shit person when you're dating I want to ask you about your cycle of online dating that you put in the book which I just I've never read it so relatable that

way and it also was really bleak um it's in the memo trash section and it's sort of like I'll see if I can show on the screen it's like a little diagram like this, like a little circle. So if we start here, it says you download a dating app, do some swiping, have a few conversations, meet someone who seems all right, let your guard down, embark on a relationship journey, observe in horror as it inevitably and theatrically goes down the pan. Have sex with them a few more times just to make sure it's really over. Pain. Self-improvement. You download a dating app. When I hear it read out, it does sound quite bleak. I will say that I was in quite a bleak place personally when I wrote that book

and the first draft of it was way bleak than that and my editor had to say listen like this has to be relatable we have to relax a little bit and put like some nice happy endings at the end I love that it is it is true that is exactly what it's like every single time and then you you have like a you have the pain you you have the theatrical breakup you go back to them you have sex a few more times just because that is confusing then you have the pain and then you're like right I'm on a healing journey I'm gonna listen to Lizzo I'm gonna drink my smoothies or whatever it is that she sings in that song and then you download another dating app and then it all happens again no literally and you think that it won't happen again like I was doing a few events and podcasts and stuff a few

weeks ago and I was listening to people talk about love like these people who have been talking about it all their lives and I was like oh so interesting that you think you have to write a book like you have to like um get so complicated about it because I have found the answer just find someone who's nice and not a dickhead and um then it'll work fine and then literally instantly went straight down the pan well I think that taps back into what we were saying about soft boys because it's very easy to meet someone nice and think that they are nice and this is when the manipulative side of a soft boy I think comes into play and is important talked about because like I said before it's those people who kind of hide behind their you know pub like the projected self that they have and the way that

people around them see them the way that they've always been made to feel like like they're one of the good guys you know very often I think these kind of soft boys are some of the most loved boys in their friendship group um they have a lot of friends who are women yeah it's really um it's really trippy because and that's all part of it because those women around them will never realize how that man behaves with women who he's in a romantic relationship with so it's very easy for him to get the validation from the women in his life i haven't thought about it that way but like do you know what i mean i think so many of these men i know they are still they are surrounded by women because they will never see them behaving in a romantic context. And because these men are manipulative, they will be good at convincing their female friends that they are good.

Yeah. And also it is you do kind of see it as a green flag if a guy has lots of female friends. Exactly. But sometimes it's the opposite because those women might be might not really know who he is but they're constantly telling him how good he is and he feels like he's good to women because he's surrounded by women and because of that it's like they're never going to be able to recognize when they're treating a woman badly because they think that they're always treating a woman nicely record this and send it to a few people that I have blocked um but I guess my question is I mean can you tell I know a few men like this um but my question is um where do you think the idea of the soft boy correlates with emotional abuse and I guess also you know because I think you talk about

emotional abuse in a few interviews but I don't think that like a screenshot of messages can necessarily illustrate emotional abuse but it might illustrate someone who is capable of emotional abuse right yeah that's true um it is definitely oversimplified when I say like and I don't think I've ever said on the account this is abusive but you can have it's red flags it's like big big red flags that you cannot ignore like and there are some that are just really sad um like and but yeah like you say like I'm not accusing any of these men of being emotionally abusive because like these are messages taken out of context but it is good to spark a conversation like I've seen a few recently that's like I like my kind of woman is like um insecure so that she's easier to manipulate like someone actually said that and it's like well you've just written like a perfect example of like how a lot of men think um and like

yeah I'd like to think like it starts a conversation about it I never went in with um the intention of like exposing that behavior so it's a bit of a I'm like very happy to do it but it's a bit of a tight rope of like not throwing labels around um that are gonna negatively affect the men but then yeah like especially I don't know I do feel very passionately about it because there are a lot of younger women that follow my account and it is helpful to know like you don't get taught it and it is and it can be really harmful um and so it's helpful to know what what you don't have to put up with totally totally I think like you said you know emotional abuse is a very complicated thing and often it's about a pattern of behavior that is obviously very difficult to convey in a message.

But that one message that you spoke about just then, where a guy's like, I like insecure women because they're easier to control. That's, I mean, I'm amazed that he identified that. But that is, I think, subconsciously, I think that a lot of these, this small portion of you know emotionally manipulative soft boys that's what they do yeah you know I wrote about this recently with Leonardo

DiCaprio you know that's so interesting and about how you know typically younger women women under 25 are more insecure less financially established less emotionally established, less, you know, they don't have, like they don't have a stable job necessarily. And so the power dynamic of an older man, especially someone as powerful as DiCaprio, someone with money and status, it's a very powerful thing. And it would be very easy for him to manipulate a much younger woman as opposed to a woman his age, who is more aware of themselves I'm not saying DiCaprio is a soft boy who knows no it is interesting though it is just an interesting way of like these men have never been um these men I maintain that they've always existed but they've never been caught so in the act of it before so yeah

I just kind of treat like a museum I'm like this has happened like do what do what you will with yeah um finally I have to ask you how many if any soft boys do you think you have dated definitely you think you have dated definitely definitely like five that I knew were soft boys and I have known were soft boys and then recently I've been on like a anti soft boy anti soft boy kind of thing no soft boys in disguise kind of goes against all of the all of the definitions of a soft boy but anyway yeah I've dated lots I've dated many what how do how do the men you date react when you tell them about the account that you run and the work that you do um initially I started it when I was at uni I I'll be I'll be very honest I can't really remember how they

reacted because I was very drunk for a lot of uni um and I just started the account but now it's it's up and down it's like they they all react in different ways and I try not to read into that it's like a indicator of like what kind of person they are but um guy I dated most recently was just like terrified of being put on the page he was like even like weeks into dating he was like you're gonna record these conversations and like put them on the page and I was like fucking no like get a grip finally this is the part of the show where I ask everyone to share a lesson in love so it's about sharing an experience that you've learned from your previous dating experiences someone who taught you something something you taught yourself it can be very specific or very

general um or just like there are many many many people out there and you and even that like if someone gives you loads of red flags and if you're getting a bad vibe or if they've told you that they don't want a relationship and you do want a relationship it might seem really obvious but like just stop talking to them like you cannot you know they're not that special you cannot change them you can't try and convince them it's a waste of energy um and also you cannot trust anyone no I'm joking but but also like you know I've not really learned that much um you you think you know about it but you don't um and I don't think anyone really knows about it um and it's very scary and it can get really bleak so that's a lot so you have to laugh at it that's what I was gonna say

I think that's actually really I think that's actually really good advice is just being able to laugh at it because I think even in the bleakest of scenarios you know and that's what I think your account is is good you know for that because it encourages laughter and it encourages finding the lightness in the dark a situationship ended very recently and it was the second time in a row that I had been dumped by a guy after he'd been for like a 15k run and he like gained both of them like which is so rude and offensive but but it's also, you kind of have to laugh at it. A, why am I dating men who are so weirdly into cardio anyway? That's a whole thing. I need to unpack that with like a therapist. B, like, it's like post-nut clarity, but like even ruder. It's like, I've just done the thing that's like the healthiest thing that I could possibly

do. And it's given me the sense of clarity that I need to realize that like I'm not looking for anything serious with you oh god it's savage but also that is so bizarre but also like like quite funny that's what I'm saying even if it's a really bad situation um you can always laugh at it um but also get therapy if you can afford it I think those are both very, very good, important messages to end on. That is sadly all we've got time for today. Thank you so much, everyone, for listening. If you are a new listener to Millennial Love,

you can subscribe to us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Acast, or wherever else it is you get your podcasts. Please do comment and leave us a rating too so that more people can find us. If you are more of a visuals person, i know we're not in the studio but you can watch our glorious zooming from the office and iona's home online if you're interested in that uh just check out millennial love on independent tv and you can keep up to date with everything to do with the show on instagram

just search millennial love and we'll see you soon. Bye. ACAST powers the world's best podcasts. Here's a show that we recommend. I'm Jessie Kirkshank and on my podcast, Phone a Friend, I break down the biggest stories in pop culture. But when I have questions, I get to phone a friend. I phone my old friend, Dan Levy.

You will not die hosting the Hills after show. I get thirsty for the hot wiggle. I didn't even know what thirsty meant until there was all these headlines. And I get schooled by a tween. Facebook is like a node. That's what my grandma's on. Thank God Phone a Friend with Jesse Crookshank is not available on Facebook.

It's out now wherever you get your podcasts. Acast helps creators launch, grow, and monetize their podcasts everywhere. Acast.com.