Love Lives - Being single, fabulous and living life on your own terms, with Paris Lees

Episode Date: September 10, 2021

Support Millennial Love with a donation today: https://supporter.acast.com/millennialloveThis week, Olivia speaks to writer Paris Lees.The two discuss the joys of being single, how Paris found herself experimenting with the idea of celibacy, and why we fetishise authenticity so much in relationships.They also talk about transphobia in the dating world and Paris’s new book, What It Feels Like For A Girl, and how it felt for Paris to revisit her childhood.Finally, they discuss the perils of social media and why Paris believes that being a trans person in the public eye is like being a “professional victim”. Follow the show on Instagram at @millennial_loveSupport this show http://supporter.acast.com/millenniallove. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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Visit Peloton at onepeloton.ca. Hello and welcome to Millennial Love, a podcast from The Independent on everything to do with love, sexuality, identity, and more. This week, I spoke to the brilliant writer Paris Lees. We talked about so much in this episode, from the joys of being single to how Paris found herself experimenting with the idea of celibacy and why we fetishise authenticity so much in relationships. We also spoke about transphobia in the dating world and Paris's new book, What It Feels Like for a Girl, and how it felt for her to revisit her childhood. Enjoy the show. Hey Paris, how are you doing?

I'm very well, thank you. I'm ready for a holiday. It's been quite a year. Yeah, it has been quite a year. I mean, congratulations on the the book first of all um for those who haven't read it or don't follow your work would you mind explaining what it's about and I guess what made you want to write it well my book what it feels like for a girl is a literary memoir so it is my life growing up in Nottingham but it's written in a way that reads as a novel so you know you don't have to be into memoirs or you know autobiographies per se to to want to pick this up and read it or even know anything about me. There's a lot of drama, there's a lot of drama there's a lot of getting into trouble I was pretty wild as a teenager I think it's fair to say didn't really have a lot of boundaries ended up in prison ended up hanging around with a bad crowd ended up taking a lot of drugs yeah there wasn't really much I didn't do. Slept with a lot of dodgy people. And yeah, it was just really very unhappy. But I guess it's about that journey and about growing up poor LGBT in Nottinghamshire in the noughties, which feels like a different planet now from the 2021 perspective I'm just like god what like what what was I there doesn't even feel like it's connected to the world that we're

living in now yeah I can imagine I mean so you write about your teenage self using the name Byron and you know as you said Byron, beaten up, sell sex to older men, taking drugs, serving eight months in a young offender institute. There is so much packed into this book. And I can't imagine what it's like to go through all of that, let alone to then share it with the world. So I guess I want to know how it's felt for you having this book out there now and having people reading this stuff and people presumably getting in touch with you you know have you been suffering at all from what Nell Frizzell calls a vulnerability hangover after having all of this out there? I love that uh first of all let me just say this doesn't even cover half of it not even for the for the I'm not I'm not joking even for like the

the time frame that it's uh that it covers um that there was a lot of material that that didn't make it and um vulnerability hangover yes uh and I I had one of those the last time I had one of those was was last year because I wrote something about mental health for for British Vogue and um there is something really powerful about sharing things publicly and I'm definitely somebody who's I mean my career has basically been confessional journalism. And I think as somebody who grew up, who didn't feel heard and felt actually actively silenced, it's been very important for me to get my voice heard, you know, as an adult. to get my voice heard, you know, as an adult. But I think also, as I've got a bit older, and, you know, been for therapy, got a bit more mature, I am more selective about what I choose to put out there. And I'm a lot more aware of the cost, you know. And I think I've learned to appreciate something that I didn't necessarily appreciate when I was younger, which is there is a reason why people keep things back.

You know, I've always been a very expressive, wear your heart on your sleeve, very open and honest person. But it is weird knowing that that stuff's out there for sure yeah I mean I've experienced that on a much more minor scale with with my book which you know I just talk about the weird dating and sexual mishaps of my life and I felt so exposed from that I mean I just can't imagine what it's what it's been like for you it is a weird thing I think you're right being selective about what you choose to share and also I think when we're younger we also feel like oh well anything that's interesting that's happened to us if you're a writer you have to write about it and actually we kind of just write about it without thinking about the consequences to what it would do to us yeah

for sure and I think also you learn yeah you learn the consequences I mean some of the columns that I used to write for Vice were you know deliberately provocative and you know they encouraged me to go there and I was quite happy to because at that time uh you know I thought it was funny and it was it was raising my profile and everything and now I look back on some of those those stories that I shared and I'm like really did you really really say that and put that out there publicly but this is also part of the uh part of the deal of you know living your life publicly I mean I make mistakes you know and it's if you work in an office which you know I've worked in an office before you say something stupid the people who are in that room on that day they see that and they they may have a bit of a gossip about it I do it in something that it's on the

internet and it sits there forever you know um but you know that's that's the life I've chosen but we're all sort of living our lives quite quite publicly these days aren't we yeah I mean I think to a smaller degree whether you're a writer or not if you have social media right that's what everyone's encouraged to do isn't it you're sharing parts of your life and if you didn't share it it didn't even happen it's that kind of mentality so it is a part of it isn't it it's a great time for narcissists and attention seekers I would say I say that as a recovering a recovering attention seeker um I loved what you said in an interview that you did with the guardian to talk about the book

uh where you were talking about constantly being referred to as a trans activist, and, you know, people assuming that because you've written a book, it's all about being trans. But by that logic, you know, surely every other memoir by a woman or a man, like you said, would then be like a woman book or a man book, if you've written a so called trans book. So I guess I want to know what, what you think needs to change and what societal shifts you think need to happen in order for us to get to that place where a trans person does write a book and it really is just a book as opposed to being a trans book. Well, I don't know if we'll ever completely get there, because let's be honest, trans people are less than 1% of the population. And clearly the other 99% feel something about us, one way or another.

Very few people I meet are completely neutral because I think it speaks to something primal. You know, we're designed to look at other human beings and think, are you a man? Are you a woman? Do I want to fight you? Could we have sex? Are you a danger to me?

Do I want to fight you? Could we have sex? Are you a danger to me? And so I don't think it's ever going to be unremarkable to be trans. I will say that. But it does go back to this, I guess, the bane of my life, which is that you only get seen as a trans person. And I don't mind that because I do talk about it.

I'm happy to talk about it. I've written about it. But it's not the only thing. It's just not. And it's so frustrating to me because like, you know, a couple of people have said to me since this book came out. forgot you're funny I forgot you used to be funny in your bite columns and oh you like pop culture don't you and music and stuff and I'm like yeah like you think that I think people think that I just sit around thinking about trans rights all the time which literally couldn't be further than than than who I am so it's just it's just inaccurate to me when people describe me as as a trans activist such as you just literally don't know who I am. I guess it's about people's own like myopic view of the world and about this kind of societal compulsion to pigeonhole people that they might not necessarily feel like they know enough about and it's so it's like maybe it feels like somehow I don't know it

gives them a more of a feeling of confidence in their own intellect by thinking oh well this is this person and this is what they do and so they just put them in that box and just don't even think to look further into that well I think it's intentional as well and I think it goes into this you know there is a power in how how we we we frame things and the words that we use to describe things. You know, think of the difference between, you know, expat or an immigrant or a refugee. You know, these words are loaded. And, you know, I always say if I'm an activist, then so is Piers Morgan and Andrew Neil and anybody else who's ever spoken publicly about the direction

that they think the world should go in. And what, you know, why does it make me an activist if I say I don't think trans people should be bullied at school? I mean, which laws am I campaigning to change? Which march am I on? Okay, I've been to one or two things, but that's not really my thing, you know? And it's just interesting that even people

who followed my career and liked me because of, you know, a lot of people still today talk to me about those vice columns, you know? And so I remember that and I've been following you since since then but then they say oh I forgot you're you're not just an an activist and I just think that's so interesting that people can only see you as one thing and I just find it I find it really reductive and limiting and it's so bizarre to me because when I go on holiday I really don't think about being

trans it's always so weird to me because I always take a social media break and I'll be going about my business I'm literally not talking about trans being trans I'm not thinking about being trans it's really not this big thing that's like in my life and then I come back I log online and it's like I'm I'm it's almost like I'm this sort of like lightning rod for other people's sort of anxieties around gender and society. And God knows, God knows what else. And it's just, it's utterly, I don't recognise myself in what I feel some people feel that I represent online. Yeah, I think social media is such a breeding ground for that kind of stuff as well isn't it because it is just it's no what no one no one wants to even think about nuance or anything anything as too as more than two-dimensional I think on social media it's

like everything is just a two-dimensional character um which kind of taps into what I wanted to talk to you about next which was you know you you said in that Guardian interview that being a trans person in the public eye is a bit like being a professional victim um so I guess do you do you mean similar to what you were just saying before how people kind of expect you to constantly be talking about trans issues and LGBT issues well it's a difficult one isn't it because you know I do feel very traumatized by my childhood you know I was very unhappy so it's it's that constant balancing act of how you know how do I talk about this stuff without just being a professional victim and I do think that

yeah you're just expected to sort of regurgitate this oh I've had a terrible life kind of thing um for a sort of like cis audience and then to be told oh you're so brave and it's it's really odd to me that you can you can essentially get paid to just go around talking about the fact that you've been abused you know and people go tell us your story share your pain with us and you know well done we think you're brave and wonderful without really doing anything to actually change the conditions to me going going through through that and then it's conversely it's so bizarre to me that you've got these people who who become sort of professional transphobes and their career rests upon essentially believe believing that there

was a problem with people like me like a lot of these transphobes that you see popping up in the media we'd literally never heard of them until they started saying we have an opinion on trans people we think they're a problem and then they they start getting commissioned to write for for newspapers and and to go on news discussion shows and they get book deals and it's so fascinating to me that there's there's people out here who have careers based on talking about their trauma or or or hate I mean what does that say about us more widely honestly I think I mean all I guess on that note you just have to think what is the what is the most read newspaper in the UK it's the sun what is the most read website in the UK it's the mail online

you know I think that that's probably my answer to that unfortunately it's it that that stuff is toxic and is wrong and as discriminatory as it all is there's an audience for it and that's probably my answer to that. Unfortunately, it's that that stuff is toxic and is wrong. And as discriminatory as it all is, there's an audience for it. And that's the bleak reality, I think. Well, there's definitely an audience for transphobia. Yeah, sadly. But it's, I'm just honestly so bored of talking about it. And I think people become obsessed and I see some of these transphobes online and literally all they do all day long is tweet about and write about and think about people like me and it's really weird because I think these people are spending a lot more time thinking about the fact that I'm trans than I am like and and it's really freaks me out because I don't think that's healthy but then I see a lot of trans people who

I think are really traumatized and all they post about is being trans like every day trans this trans that and I'm just like I mean I I thought the whole point was that we don't and I know that we do still have to think about it because there is discrimination but one of the things that one of the the freedoms that I'm fighting for is to be free not to have to think about being trans and just live my life on the same terms as everybody else you know and and I don't know I don't know I think the internet is making people very unwell, actually. And I saw somebody the other day talking about how these people who've been taken in by misinformation on the vaccine, they are victims of disinformation.

And I do think it's a very fine line because some of these people are also peddlers of disinformation but I certainly think when it comes to the anti-trans lot that a lot of them are very quite sad people you know who and I mean that with kindness like they need to get life and they need to get help you know because they are victims of something very ugly and um not not good for any of us for anybody to become that obsessed with with with with a group of people who you know we're just trying to live our lives yes so there's there are bad trans people I can't say that there aren't but the idea that you know we are the problem in society is just nuts to me I mean were gay people the problem were black people the problem were women the problem you know I've been told that I'm a problem my whole life while so the people have been causing

me problems simply because of who I am so it's it's just this weird weird weird gaslighting and and I don't I don't see it ending anytime soon, really. So I don't know what the solution is. But I'm just trying to live life on my own terms and not let these people bring us down. Because I do think ultimately that is the point of transphobia is to steal our joy, to steal our energy and just prevent us from living our lives fully. So that's my activism is is having a fabulous life I think um social media companies have a big responsibility that they that they aren't they aren't stepping up to enough because I mean you know every time I get I get a

comment that's being like oh no we're going to keep this in it doesn't go against our community guidelines and it's just you see it all the time yeah I get it on Twitter all the time you report things and they say no it's fine yeah and the thing that annoys me is that they could stop that if they wanted to I know Twitter could say it's like a school you get some schools where there's you know a bullying problem and other schools where there's a sensible head teacher and there's there's a culture of respect and things being followed up and you kind of need the people who with with power who are organizing everything to say we're not tolerating this we're not hosting it and we're gonna you know use our powers to make sure that this is a safe space for

people like that's what's so sickening about it because they they know that hate clearly it must it must be a net game for them you know because it because it increases engagement isn't it sick you know where where where is where where are the morals you know I don't think there are morals there's just money isn't there yeah yeah yeah yeah this is this is a bit negative I know I'm gonna switch i'm gonna switch i'm feeling i'm feeling a bit i am feeling a bit bleak i'm feeling a bit bleak with it with the climate with the climate crisis and everything so god i know it is i know it's it's everything feels a bit bleak at the moment but uh yeah sorry if i go no no no that's okay i going to ask you about one more grim thing and then and

then we'll move on to less grim things um because so many there are so many parts of the book that I think are are deeply shocking in and you know but you you write about them so beautifully in a way that I feel like anyone is able to empathize with what you were going through at that moment particularly because you're obviously writing about it from the point of view of a teenager um so I guess for me the part that I found most shocking was where you described going into a public toilet at the age of 14 with an older man who was paying you for sex and I know you've spoken about how at that time you didn't recognize that as abuse so I guess I want to know a little bit about what it was like for you to write about that as an adult and tap back into your teenage self and how that made you feel and how you

viewed that situation differently. Well I mean I sort of knew it was wrong I mean obviously I knew it was wrong but I guess that word I thought I thought you know as a child that had like a very specific meaning like if you're much younger and you've sort of been forced obviously as an adult I I know that you know abuse comes in lots of different forms and looking at that situation what else are we going to call it you know of course it was wrong for those people to you know they should have known better um obviously I thought that I was really grown up I thought that I knew what I was doing um I was an idiot frankly um and I guess revisiting it it's um it's it's it's it's very hard to say I do feel ashamed actually weirdly which I hadn't I hadn't

necessarily thought that I would putting that out there which I hadn't I hadn't necessarily thought that I would putting that out there because I think this this this book has been a therapeutic exercise for me and I think that thinking of Byron in you know that period of my life in these sort of stylized terms I mean it all happened but you, it's presented in a certain way, sort of gave me the distance to explore and look back on those experiences. And I think we do this. I think we do it culturally. And I think we do it as individuals. I mean, you know, people can come back to trauma at various, you know, various intervals.

you know very very sensible some people you know I was speaking to a friend last night she was saying that she knew somebody who who had all this trauma that came out in his 80s from the war you know but I think 15 20 years seems to be a common theme of people going back and thinking okay can we face that now what what was that about you know can we make sense of it um and I just feel desperately sad really I just feel very sad you know that that was that was my childhood essentially and I just don't want anybody else to go through that and to feel that they don't have value and to feel so desperate desperate desperate for validation so desperate to find a space in the world where yeah where they have value where they're not nothing you know because I grew up feeling like I was nothing like there was something wrong with me that I was a problem

so you enter into a context where you have something that other people want which in in my case was you know being incredibly young then it makes sense to me why you'd be drawn to that and it's just it's just so sad you know I mean it makes me sick I mean I wouldn't even want to think but you know the idea that anybody that I know would would you know it's just it's not what you want for for anybody you know let alone the people you love so yeah it's just and it's also said that you know there are those men out there and I don't believe that human nature has drastically changed since 2001 so and we see it you see it in the news don't you these grooming gangs and you know it's it's it's very depressing because I don't want to think that people are like

that I don't want to think that men are like that. I don't want to think that men are like that. And I don't think it's all men, actually. But it's enough for it to be a problem that we should be talking about. Get back. CBC News brings the story to you as it happens. Hundreds of wildfires are burning. Be the first to know what's going on and what that means for you and for Canadians. This situation has changed very quickly. Helping make sense of the world when it matters most. Stay in the know. CBC News. ACAST powers the world's best podcasts.

Here's a show that we recommend. I'm Jessie Kirkshank, and on my podcast, Phone a Friend, I break down the biggest stories in pop culture, but when I have questions, I get to phone a friend. I phone my old friend, Dan Levy. You will not die hosting the Hills after show. I get thirsty for the hot wiggle. I didn't even know what thirsty meant until there was all these headlines.

And I get schooled by a tween. Facebook is like a node. That's what my grandma's on. Thank God Phone a Friend with Jesse Crookshank is not available on Facebook. It's out now wherever you get your podcasts. Acast helps creators launch, grow, and monetize their podcasts everywhere. Acast.com You had a lot of messages from readers

saying that particular bits resonate with you or that the same thing happened to them or or anything else because I know that does tend to be a thing now people can people know that they can access you know authors and public figures so they tend to message them on Instagram or Twitter or whatever have you been having some positive messages from that I've had so many positive messages and you know if anybody's messaged me and I haven't got back to them and they're listening to this then thank you very much and and I'm sorry I just I personally find my it makes it sound like I'm being inundated um it just I just I just get a bit overwhelmed you know there's email whatsapp instagram twitter tech like it's I I can't respond to every message but I do I do sort of stick my

head in every now and again and just fish through and particularly if there's if there's people that look vulnerable and need help I might sort of like uh you know signpost them onto you know somebody appropriate that can help them but I generally don't get to respond don't get time to respond to most of the messages but I've had some very sweet ones and you know just across loads of different lines really across class lines and people who have connections to Nottingham or the north or people who are you know maybe grew up in a very different way but were just unhappy for for whatever reason I think a lot of people found growing up very difficult they may not necessarily have made the choices that I made or or had the experiences that I had but I think a lot a lot of people you know struggled right yeah massively I mean every time I write a piece of journalism or any article really that's vaguely

personal I get messages from people saying oh this happened to me but it but it's difficult when you have written about something traumatizing because then it there is this element of it being almost re-traumatizing for you feeling that person in the depths of whatever it is that you've been through yeah obviously wanting to help them but you know at the end of the day they're a person on the other end of a phone they might live in a completely different country so it's a tricky thing to to navigate but I think it's yeah I think it's it's lovely in a way that we can have you can have that interaction with people like that and with your readers like that well it makes you feel less alone doesn't it and I think that's that's one thing because people say to me you

know has it been was it cathartic right you know it must have been cathartic and it's like well no it wasn't really it was actually really upsetting at times but what is cathartic and it's like well no it wasn't really it was actually really upsetting at times but what is cathartic is is feeling heard and and actually weirdly when I wrote uh some pieces about relationships that I'd had for for British Vogue recently I think honestly deep down I probably still hadn't completely got over my last relationship and, you know, was still in my feelings a bit. But actually having people read it and say, oh, I was in a relationship like that or I've always wanted to be in a relationship like that. And just there's something for me about seeing it written down in black and white and having other people say. And I think it does come from that feeling gaslighted when I was growing up there's something about

writing it down that says it did happen you can't take it away from me I own it it was my experience and now I can move on from it so I don't I don't know maybe maybe that's just like a writer thing I think actually gaslighting is so much I know it's an overused term which I also hate I know I'm being so so cheesy I keep dropping it yeah this is the thing though it frustrates me that it has become this overused media term because actually I think gaslighting happens in almost every relationship and it happens so much more than we realize and I think it's so important to talk about it and recognize it and and like you said like validate your own feelings because so often

if you're in a toxic relationship you're made to feel that your experience and your emotion isn't valid and actually something else happened and you're constantly questioning yourself and you know it happens to different degrees but it's you know it's definitely something we want to talk about more um speaking of dating and your columns you wrote for Vogue I know last year you wrote a brilliant column about the joys of being single and you were kind of talking about the exasperation of dating apps and and that you had been experimenting with celibacy I mean experimenting with celibacy that's probably the wrong way to put it but you were going through a period of celibacy. So I want to talk to you about that and ask what that was like

and where you're at with that now and what you learned from that. Well, also, I don't know if I completely realized this or explored it when I wrote the piece, but it occurred to me when I split up with my boyfriend. So this may be a bit TMI but let's go there so I have to take like a little bit a little bit of testosterone right would you believe it like and the doctors really had to persuade me because like that stuff is like poison to me in my mind I'm just like that's that's what I don't want in my body but it turns out we all need a little bit to give us

energy right and and a libido and build muscle so um I I have to I have to take some as well as the estrogen that I take I stopped taking it when I split up with my ex because I was heartbroken and I thought I actually really don't need a libido right now because I don't want to go out and sleep with people um so I stopped taking uh testosterone and then because I just stopped taking it for them I sort of forgot that it's something that I'm supposed to take so then I just didn't really have a libido and then I was like I'm not really bothered about sex and um it's quite nice actually having that power to sort of take away the hunger right like imagine if you could take away I don't know your your need to urinate as frequently

or your need to eat like it just frees up all of this sort of time it just makes your life easier I mean honestly would anybody bother with relationships and and and trying to find people and go on dates and have sex with people if you didn't actually have that urge to sort of like scratch the edge I wouldn't and I haven't and it's been great and I've made loads of progress in my career and everything but I have I've decided I need to get my energy levels back up so I I'm back on I'm taking a little bit of uh a little bit of the the the gloop that they give me and um I'm I'm I'm I'm getting back there where I'm I'm I'm looking at men again and I'm like oh okay I may I may I may have I may have had gentleman callers in the past few few months but

like relationship I'm just like I don't just can't be bothered and it's got to be good as well because I have been in some like amazing like relationships with like really hot guys and I'm just like my standards are so high now I'm just like you've really got to push my buttons and it no one's no one's doing it for me at the moment so when the right one comes along I I'll I know that I will uh I'll you know but if you make me feel something I'll be all in I'll say but I also think I bring a really different energy to a relationship now because I'm older I'm in a I'm in a better position in my life and I think a lot of my insecurities and previous relationships came from uh feeling like in a place of desperation and not feeling empowered and stuff like for instance you know I went to go and stay with my ex's family at Christmas which was you know anxiety inducing for anybody right you're

going to stay with your boyfriend's family at Christmas but also you know because of my background like I'm just not used to that sort of like family unit at Christmas and it brought up all of this stuff for me also he didn't tell everybody in his family that I was trans so it's like his mum knew and his sisters but like the wider family they didn't know and I think it this was before my profile was was was as you know as as big as it's not like I'm not like I'm Rihanna or anything but you know that was intentional from his point of view or he just he just kind of forgot to do it no it just no it wasn't it wasn't no it wasn't like a big secret or anything it was just like no one cared like his mum didn't care like literally it just wasn't

and just going back to what we're saying at the top of this like honestly genuinely not something that I really think about or talk about a lot in my interactions with the people that are close to me because it's like what is there to say after a certain point you know what yes I you know for all intents and purposes I just I'm who I am now I'm just out here living my life so at what point do you have that conversation with your cousin or your auntie so and so oh by the way did you know that Paris used to be kind of thing so yeah it wasn't it wasn't I wish me like shocked some people because because they obviously think it's like a big deal but it isn't a big deal to me and the people in my life, it's not a big deal to, because we're not fucking idiots.

So, you know what I mean? It's like, it's not, but then I say that, then I built it up into this big thing in my mind, because, you know, I'm sure they're all lovely people and they wouldn't have, like, cared anyway. But in my mind, I'm, like, thinking, oh, God, what, I, you know, you're meant to be relaxed, like, and I'm going to be around these people. And I will feel a bit paranoid, because I'm always

hyper vigilant, right? Because of growing up, you know, the way the way that society is, it's like, you can't not be, you know, even if you pass as a female, I hate that term. But you know, even if you sort of blend in 99% of the time you know there's always that fear of what if somebody looks at me and notices something about me that gives the game away shall we say so I had all of that anxiety and it's and I remember distinctly this is like four four five years ago now and I didn't have money to get pajamas like I didn't have like smart pajamas you know like when you're staying over at somebody's house that you don't know and like I remember just feeling trapped and it was

like I couldn't have just if it was all getting too much me I couldn't have just jumped in my car and gone and checked into a hotel because I didn't have a car I still didn't have a car um didn't have any money I was literally dependent him. And I think you were just setting yourself up, Paris, like, part of it was your sort of mental health issues. But part of it was the fact that you weren't in a good place. And you were completely dependent on this guy, which just created this huge pressure. You know, and I just think I've just been really focused in the past years of getting myself into a really, really, really, really good place so that the only thing I'm wanting from the relationship is sex and love and having good times together. But actually, I am whole and complete in myself with or without that.

So it's a bonus, not some sort of like I'm intertwined with you or I'm dependent on you in in an unhealthy way what do you make of the modern dating scene more generally I mean are you kind of opposed to the apps or are you for them or would you rather meet someone kind of spontaneously in real life what's your kind of preference in terms of that well I don't want to sound like a luddite and say like oh I think the apps are terrible but I do think that they encourage people to behave really shittily you know and I put my hands up like myself included because people are just so um what's the word like like just discardable you know like you think oh I don't like it I don't I could never sit with a guy who wears a hat like that see you later like and and I just I think

it's kind of doing us all a bit of a disservice because you know I've said this before in interviews but one of my boyfriends I met at a party. And honestly, like he was like, when I told him that I was trans, he was like, oh, I can't sleep with you. And I was like, well, I've just met you. So like, don't worry about it, mate. But like, if he'd have met me on a nap, I don't think he'd have swiped.

I think if I'd have just told him, I think his automatic reaction would have been, oh, that's no good for me. And he would have not swiped, right? oh that's no good for me and he would have he would have not swiped right um so yeah I think they just encourage you to see people in a very superficial way you know I I one of my boyfriends was about an inch shorter than me back in the day um and I don't necessarily think I would have I mean I don't swipe on people that that are shorter than me now so yeah it's not great but then also I don't know I don't know it's just it's just difficult isn't it I think you know back in the day I always used to have like

loads of guys numbers in my phone like and I thought I was really cool right I was like I'm a player nobody's gonna run games on me because I'm two steps ahead can't cheat on me if I'm cheating on you now I just look back on it and I'm just like oh Paris, Paris what what oh god it's just it's literally cringe and it's all from insecurity and and I remember like my my girlfriends would say to me like where do you meet all these guys you know because I'd always got a guy to pick me up and a guy didn't you know guy to go on a date a guy to come on for a sort of booty call um and now everybody like every woman's a player like everyone everyone's got like hundreds of numbers in their phone and I've gone the opposite way just because I don't know why I'm like that but I am I just

don't like being the same as everybody else I just think oh it's just really boring now isn't it I want something real yeah I know something it sounds like you know we we fetishize authenticity so much in the dating world I think particularly because dating apps like you said do make it so superficial but even though it might be a cliche to say like we just want something genuine and authentic like I just want to you know you want to meet someone in a bar and have a fun little flirty chat and then you have this amazing evening together and you know that kind of rom-com dream as cringe and cliche as it is I think so many of us still really really crave that particularly now because so many of us have reached a point where we're like oh

dating apps everyone is just the same or no one is who they say they are or people treat people terribly like you said it's just we've reached that point where now it's like I just want that kind of rom-com experience more than ever. I will say, though, and I don't want to make myself sound like a trash bag, but, you know, there are times, like, sometimes you just want to order a pizza, right? And sometimes you just want to order a guy, right? And I'm not talking about paying for, by the way.

I'm just talking, you know, if you're in a certain mood and you don't have time for all of that and it's like it is kind of amazing that you can just go on a nap and be like hello Jim fancy coming over for a lemon drop yeah I know what you mean I also I think there's something quite empowering being able to do that yeah I don't I don't do it all the time but I do it but it does it does make you feel like a bit of a boss I just I just pressed a button and the man turned up at my house you know I don't I don't I don't do it a lot but yeah it is it is it does make things a lot easier because I just think all the nights out you know because let's face it some people do go out to pool we've all been there and I just think god the amount of effort that used to go in and dancing and it's like no you just literally just

press a button if you yeah there are swings and roundabouts as well I suppose aren't there because then if you do go out to pool and think I am going to meet someone at a bar and then you don't inevitably you don't you can feel so deflated and so despondent and you think that the whole night is ruined and you it stops you from having a really good time with your friends which is also such a shame we used to call it a waste of makeup I shaved my legs for this yeah exactly it's definitely it's definitely an efficiency game I would say um right it's time for our lessons in love segment so this is the part of the show where I ask every guest to share something that they've learned about love from their previous relationship experiences. So what would be your lesson in love for us today, Paris? My lesson in love for today is be, it's kind of a wider life lesson, but particularly in relationships.

Just be less focused on what the other person's doing and what you're doing and it goes back to what we were just talking about because I on it's genuinely so I feel so ashamed saying this but I I did I and it comes from insecurity I genuinely thought that if if I was out there cheating on people I couldn't be cheated on isn't it does that just sound so immature and ridiculous it's ridiculous no it doesn't I think so many people do that particularly women because they're like men are trash which is also a problematic phrase but I think it is this fear that you are just going to be messed around well I think this is why I want to share it because it's all I know that if I was there at one point there must be other people who were at that point now you know and um it's just horrible because you

know I I left one of my relationships and um the guy cheated on me and I didn't I didn't leave that thinking wish I cheated on him. Although honestly, I had some pretty good offers while I was in that relationship. But, but, but no, actually, I thought, you know what, that's fine because I can't control what you do. I don't have any control over that whatsoever. I'm in control of me and I didn't cheat on you. And I'm proud of that. So you've got to deal with, you have to deal with what you did and I'm going control of me and I didn't cheat on you. And I'm proud of that. So you've got to deal with, you have to deal with what you did and I'm going to deal with what I did.

So I guess it's just a wider life lesson because I think I've been pretty codependent over the years. And I think I've come out of that now, which is you can't control what the other person's doing. I guess to a certain point, you kind of just have to take someone at their word. Like if you're constantly second guessing them, you kind of just have to take what they give you and accept that that's true rather than obsess over whether or not someone is lying to you all the time. Yeah. And when I say don't worry about what they're doing, I'm not talking about turning a blind eye to you know bad bad bad behavior I sound like a teacher when I say that bad behavior um you know and and and and I don't put up with crap in relationships as well and it really frustrates me when I see

my friends who you know are essentially you allowing, allowing people to sort of take the, take the mickey out of them. I find that really upsetting. So don't, don't put up with this. But yeah, unless, I don't know, you just, you just can't control other people. I guess that's my, that's my life lesson, which seems pretty obvious when you know it, but it wasn't obvious to me 10 years ago. That's it for today. Thank you so much for listening. If you're a new listener to this show you can subscribe to us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Acast or anywhere else. You can comment and leave us a rating too so that more people can find us. Keep up with everything to do with the show on Instagram. Just search Millennial Love. See you soon.

ACAST powers the world's best podcasts. Here's a show that we recommend. I'm Jessie Kirkshank, and on my podcast, Phone a Friend, I break down the biggest stories in pop culture. But when I have questions, I get to phone a friend. I phone my old friend, Dan Levy. You will not die hosting the Hills after show. I get thirsty for the hot wiggle. I didn't even know what thirsty meant until there was all these headlines.

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