Love Lives - Celibacy, Saturn Returns, and craving instability, with Caggie Dunlop

Episode Date: December 4, 2020

This week, Olivia is joined by former Made in Chelsea star Caggie Dunlop.The two discuss how your Saturn Return can affect your love life, why we chase after people we know are wrong for us, and whether or not a period of celibacy can help you reclaim autonomy over your intimate relationships.Of course, they also discuss Made in Chelsea, and how being the star of a reality TV show at the age of 22 has shaped Caggie's life.Follow the show on Instagram at @millennial_loveSupport Millennial Love with a donation today: https://supporter.acast.com/millennialloveSupport this show http://supporter.acast.com/millenniallove. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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please contact Connects Ontario Hello and welcome to Millennial Love, a podcast from The Independent on everything to do with love, sexuality, identity and more. This week I'm very excited to be joined by Kagi Dunlop. Kagi is probably best known for being one of the original Made in Chelsea cast members. She was on the reality TV show for its first three seasons and left to pursue a career in music. Today she's still making music but she also has her own podcast called Saturn Returns on which she speaks to inspiring women about everything from being sober curious to finding ways to step into your authentic self. Today she joins me on the show to discuss why she wanted to venture into podcasting, how your Saturn Return

can transform your love life and the benefits of celibacy. Enjoy the show. Hi, Kagi. Hello. How are you doing? I'm all right, thank you. How are you? I'm okay, thanks. Settling into the second week of lockdown, I think it is, when we're recording this. Is it the second week? Yeah, I think it started sort of officially a week ago I'm quite I'm a creature of solitude anyway so to be honest someone told me I have to socialize every day for the next month I'd probably find that more traumatic I'm actually okay I know what you mean it's also because this time of year typically there would be a lot of parties happening and a lot of social gatherings and every year that gives me quite a lot of anxiety so it's quite nice in a way not to have to do any of that and also when I have like there's a there's a perfect dose of

socializing and as soon as it crosses that I'm like and I'm done I don't want to hang out with you anymore I'm done whereas I can be on my own for like a really long time actually I was thinking when I was living in LA which was we'll get into because it's the start of my own Saturn return journey I actually basically did a self-inflicted lockdown because I don't know that I just did I was like voluntarily locking down on my own um so you mentioned Saturn Return. So that is the name of your podcast, Saturn Returns. Can you explain to the listeners a bit about what a Saturn Return actually is?

So a Saturn Return is something that happens in astrology. And it's when Saturn orbits the same place in the sky occupied at the time of your birth. place in the sky occupied at the time of your birth so wherever it was at the time you were born it takes about 30 years to go back to that place in the sky so it's like a very slow moving planet and with it it's supposed to bring about like quite a lot of turbulence in your life because it's all about discipline and structure and boundaries and if you haven't been living in a Saturnian fashion like I wasn't it you will sort of feel its arrival if you have and you are quite uh disciplined as a person and it might just solidify where you're at maybe you'll like you know get married if you've been in a long-term relationship

you have a child or you'll move to the city you've always wanted to live and you've worked really hard for that job promotion but if you've just been sort of like floating around aimlessly or like not really that uh convicted about what you're doing it will it will let you know about it so it's kind of got like people are a bit um satanophobic i guess like in astrology it's kind of got this like oh my god you're going to go through a saturn turn it's going to be terrifying and in a way like during it it can be yeah because it can feel quite disruptive like a lot of relationships don't survive like relationships can suddenly disappear and you actually like at 27 that you could be with someone for a really long period like a long time and you think that is your partner and then suddenly it's like overnight

it's disappeared and the same with careers and the same with friendships so it can make you feel like you're going through a bit of a whirlpool but ultimately it's like for you to be able to establish that your authentic self so it is for your own good I mean I can understand why people are afraid of that yeah but like I said it depends on the individual I've got some friends that just like you know didn't really notice anything that much happened but most people do because most people don't live their life in that disciplined way no particularly yeah but particularly in your 20s I think and your late 20s you're kind of

like when you're in your late 20s you're almost pushing against the aging and you're like nope I'm still in my 20s I'm still going to be reckless and behave however I want and not think about anything and you push it aside yeah and this is your sort of final initiation into adulthood and like it's coming whether you like it or not well I can't wait for mine um tell me yeah but at least you know it's coming I I have no idea what's going on I was just like why does life feel like it's drop kicking me in the face all of a sudden okay so talk to me talk to me a bit about that when did when this when did this all start happening for you so did it happen

when you turned 30 so I started feeling it definitely um when I was 27 like so when I was 27 I moved to LA and I guess like my 20s I was just sort of like like I had my whole life just kind of floating around like from one project to another never really feeling anchored in like any fixed sense of self my my entire teen years and 20s were based off like do anything to fit in be any kind of person to to be liked and accepted you know that was kind of I was like a chameleon in that sense like always shape-shifting and always being a different version of myself around different people and then when I turned 27 and also to do that like I I had my various like numbing agents you know I used to drink and party a lot through my 20s and then when I turned 27 I went to LA something just kind of shifted and I when I did drink and stuff it really it didn't

go down well and it caused me like a lot of anxiety and depression and I just started becoming aware of myself in a slightly different way and like having this desire to actually be me but at that point I had absolutely no idea who that was because I think I'd denied so many aspects of myself from such a young age that I had become like disconnected and then I was craving reconnecting with myself and that kind of put me on this journey and at this point I wasn't interested in like astrology or anything I guess I always had a spiritual side but it wasn't really nurtured in London in the city I was in it was kind of like people I'd go off to Australia and I would always come back like not drinking and being vegan and stuff my friends would be like can you call us when you were not being completely boring and so I would oscillate between these two worlds a lot of the time and then yeah I guess LA

LA gave me an opportunity to to explore that a bit more with a bit more freedom which is the beautiful thing about living abroad really yeah it's so funny I feel I feel so similar in that sense and like I'm constantly oscillating between these two sides of myself, like the side that wants to be really healthy and spiritual. And it's very into, like my dad lives in California. So I'm very in touch with the whole kind of woo-woo world of like veganism, yoga, meditation, living your truth, all that stuff. Like that's all very much the vibe out there. And I love it. But then I come back to London and then it's so not like that, even though it's becoming more of a thing here, it's still like socially,

it just doesn't really work. So how do you think you mentioned, you know, the Saturn return can kind of completely shake up your relationship status. Yeah. How can you talk to me a bit more about that? So is it sort of like you just kind of start rethinking everything? So if you're in a long-term relationship, is that kind of the time when you might start to think, right, because also you said age of 27, that's a pretty normal age for people to start thinking, okay, is this the person that I actually want to be with the rest of my life or not? Because you're moving into your 30s and particularly as

a woman you know inverted commas your time is slightly limited so you're like do I want to keep doing this or do I want to be single for a bit more I can understand why that happens so is that something that happened to you well I think there is like a combination combination of things going on at that time in terms of like there's a societal pressure there's a biological clock there's like you know the the role we play in that relationship versus like what is our true sense of self and we're living in a time where it's like um people say it's like identity economics it's like all about discovering who we are and i think astrology plays a really pivotal role in that and that's why it's become such a popular thing today and like also within our relationships it's like it's not just is this a functioning healthy relationship I think our expectations are so much

higher it's like did this person bring out the best in me did they help me evolve into like my greatest sense of self and all this sort of stuff so I think there's all those elements at play and I personally I was in a relationship in London I've been in a two-year relationship and I did end it um when I was 27 and I moved to LA I think that you know it's what I what I said before we have this awareness that like perhaps we've been living a life that's not necessarily aligned with our authenticity because you know also to not over complicate it but we have certain squares as well so like at 7 14 21 those are certain squares if you think if you look back at your life those are really like crucial defining moments where you pick up a lot of like messaging about who you're supposed to be in the world or like how you're going to operate or protective um ways to keep you protected from

the world like and i think what happens in your sasama turn is you suddenly begin to unpin the things that are no longer serving you and that may be that a relationship has like you know you've outgrown it and it's not actually sort of serving you for lack of better word we've outgrown each other we've learned what you need to learn so I think that it's definitely that there are just so many breakups that happen over that time and also the perhaps the way that you are operating in relationship let's say it's like not your choice that relationship ends but you are attracted to a certain type of person based off like what you picked up in childhood and you will have a like a pattern that you've carried

throughout your romantic life and then during your Saturn return it's a great opportunity to to re-establish that to um to actually like identify hang on why am I going for this kind of thing you know when people are always like I go for the same type of guy I go for like the emotionally unavailable or whatever it might be the kind of the problem inverted problem wherever that is so I think there's like an amazing opportunity to like step away from that and then often relationships that might be actually potentially a little bit toxic kind of fall by the wayside does that make sense yeah no no it does it does and also it taps into that common myth that everyone always talks about, you know, 27, 28. That's the time when people break up. There are a lot of breakups at that point.

And, you know, I know from experience with friends and stuff, that's that's just what happens. But it's interesting that there's like astrological reasoning behind that. And it almost it's quite reassuring. You did a you did a podcast all about sex and relationships with Shona Virtue in like April, I think. And I wanted to ask you a bit about some of the things that you spoke about on that. You mentioned patterns just now and kind of going for, going for the same kind of people. And one of the things you said that you had noticed was that a common theme in your own relationships was that you were gravitating towards extremes and and you you use the word addicts but I want to ask you a bit about what you meant by that yeah so basically a pattern of my behavior was um was is hopefully was was

that I was attracted to yeah people with an addictive personality now that doesn't necessarily mean to say that they were all like you know raging drug addicts or anything like that um but it's also important to note that like the reasoning for that or one of the reasons for that was which took me a long time to acknowledge is that actually it's because I possess those qualities in myself um so we're often attracted to like almost more attracted I think to the flaws we possess in ourselves like in another because then what we can do is we can like trauma bond around it so and also will be you know when you meet someone you have that like intense chemistry and it's just like all-consuming and I always used to I always used to think that

that was love and so I was notorious within my friendship groups to be like the person that would meet someone and on day one be like we're going to get married and I'm in love with himself which of course looking back was just ridiculous because we didn't know each other but I don't deny that that's like at the moment that moment how I felt that I just had a confusion around what love was that sort of intensity we feel is actually like a familiar familiarity to something that's actually quite damaging for us a lot of the time a lot of the time and I can only speak again for my personal experiences it's like if you have a certain attachment as well there's like an attachment theory which is hugely fascinating like and you say because of the way you were brought up have developed like an anxious

attachment style you will be like super attracted to avoidance and it's like this weird sort of chase chasey sort of dynamic that plays out that's incredibly intoxicating like there's no greater aphrodisiac than a trauma bond that's unfortunate truth but I think that when I um was able to kind of step back and look at and like it's not to say like I had some amazing relationships and you know was very in love a lot of the time with um you know of course whoever I was with but there was something in me that was like yeah this intensity this um I confused intensity for intimacy and they're not the same thing so I thought like if I can if I can really quickly go into this relationship and we you know everything goes super fast then that's like an acknowledgement

and a presence of love and acceptance and like validation and I couldn't sit in the discomfort in like letting things actually move slowly so I rushed everything whereas now I have to really practice like being slow with things and measured and actually like allowing for two you know you've got to look at it as like two people coming together and creating something between them they're not like a mesh and I think we romanticize trauma in a relationship actually like that toxicity we we equate to love because it's been through the media through film all these things and so we kind of have this like false sense of ownership over the other person which is just completely futile and actually what causes a lot of upset in the end when it eventually does fall

into its own sort of demise not to be doom and gloom about it no you're right we need to reprogram the way we approach relationship yeah it's such a problem though because like you said we are programmed to be attracted to dysfunctional relationships in a way because this is something I've written about like uh on-off relationships for example incredibly unhealthy right absolutely traumatizing to be in an on-off relationship with someone but they are so romanticized in popular culture like look at normal people, for example. You know, that show and that book, hugely, hugely popular, hugely successful. Because there is something about that kind of push and pull dynamic that makes the relationship seem like all the more meaningful because they have to fight for it. And it's like, no, that's not it.

It's really toxic and damaging for you. But you almost can't see that because in your head, you're like, this person must be the one for me because it's so hard to find stability with them. Yeah, I completely get that. But to be honest, I mean, I've got to say my first love was a very on off like, like, over the course of years. And, you know, perhaps I, like, romanticize the past like we all do and look at it through rose-tinted glasses. But it, like, created this really interesting thing. And to echo the kind of normal people storyline, it was like when you have these big gaps between seeing someone,

but you always come back around, it's like there's an energy that you share that's very magnetic but it's and there's a connection but it's not necessary to say you're supposed to carry each other like you know or walk together through through life it's just something that you come in and out and as you develop as individual human beings you cross each other's path and then there's this thing there and then there and then eventually maybe there isn't and there's something some bittersweet about that because that person then is a is a way that you can kind of like narrate your life through a different gaze does that make sense and I think that's an incredibly beautiful thing but I think what we

have to remember is like a connection doesn't mean a partnership. A connection doesn't mean that you're going to have a healthy, great relationship. And I think we're so like, I have so many girlfriends being like, but we have this connection. Like, so what? You can have a connection with like a person you meet one day and you, and you never see again. Every connection is valuable, but it's our expectations and our fantasies that we attach onto that that gets us into trouble. Kagi, that's life changing.

I think that on and off toxicity is when in the immediate stages, when you're like, if you are trying to establish a relationship with someone, that they are being present and then pulling away and then being present and then pulling away and it's creating this sort of like whiplash in you and then you're you know questioning yourself and that's i'll go back to the the attachment theory like if you're an anxious attached person you will put up with that sort of behavior because your programming is like I I need them to love me in order to to be okay basically like if they go I'm not okay and if you're securely attached you just be like I'm okay thanks do you know what I mean yeah attachment theory it's so interesting it's I'm the reason I keep bringing up is because I'm like reading about at the moment because this i still have to like unearth parts of me because i'm like okay i go into this default setting in relationship and then i'm like that is not the woman you are today that is the girl you

were at 14 and to being able to differentiate between the two you can then start working with that because you're not like identifying with the emotion that's coming up you're able to be like oh I know where that came from and I know why I did that then but that's not how we're going into this now it's so good to be aware of your attachment type I think I think I the worst thing for me about attachment theory though is I think I'm I'm too I'm the two worst ones I think I'm anxious and avoidant. When you look at that diagram, you're like, please don't be that one. Please don't be that one.

To be honest, I think I might be too sometimes. It makes no sense. I'm unsafe in myself and I view the world as unsafe. Fantastic. Yeah, it's great. I actually think I've got the more like, i look at the world and other people as sort of on the pedestal and like you know my i operate through life on the sort of kindness of strangers

and i always think the other person is like amazing that i'm in a relationship with and it's more a lack of i probably like self-esteem or yeah yeah it's funny because I think your your biggest and deepest vulnerabilities come out in relationships like like you said you know you can be the most secure and most independent person but then you can also you know not get a text back from someone and three days later be losing your mind you know what's like I have a lot of there's a dangerous thing that's going around at the moment and it has like for the last couple of years and it's sort of in the personal development and like spirituality world like do the work on yourself first before you can be in relationship and that's such rubbish like

a relationship is going to trigger you and highlight where you need to grow and I think it's not like you get to a destination you're like oh perfect now I can call someone in it's like you have to do the work simultaneously and in and in relationship but the the challenge it's so challenging because it's going to show you parts that you can't see on your own you know and that actually you probably don't want to see and what we often do is like rather than accept whoever comes into our life as a mirror that's an opportunity for growth we kind of put all our expectations and like all our we we demand they are our reason for happiness you know like a relationship now has to play so many different roles and we don't

like yeah we don't play it evenly i always say the same which i think is really funny but it's very true it's like we ask and we look for a relationship that's unconditional love yet we go into it with a scripture of conditions and it's like it's true I'm like why won't anyone love me unconditionally yeah comes along you're like no you don't you don't have this you don't have that it's so true though it's I think what you said about expectations as well is really interesting I had a conversation with someone about that recently it's like we we expect so much from our romantic partners today we expect them to provide so much for us you know we expect them to be our best friend our life partner someone they we expect everything from them and that's

just not realistic like you're never going to get everything you want from another person you have to know your limits with you know a partner because otherwise you'll just be disappointed and that'll be the source of like so many frustrations between the two I think what's really important and it's a really good time to do it during your Saturn return once you've like navigated your own crap is to really establish your own personal values both independently and in a relationship because I'm a big believer in like you call in what you really what you really want and more importantly what you need so you're always going to be matching and I think when people are like oh I'm in like a toxic relationship or like

I'm I'm going out with a narcissist I there's this person that I love who does a lot of stuff around relationships called Mark Grove and he always says he's like well the better question is why are you a match for one and it's like that thing we don't want to look at the part of ourselves that may be you know connected to that it's always like you're this you're bad we we villainize and then we oscillate between being like the victim and the perpetrator all the time that's like the dance that's the modern dance in relationship whereas like the truth is it's just like two human beings that possess good and bad in themselves that are trying to like navigate those seas together and it's confronting and challenging for both people.

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Acast helps creators launch, grow, and monetize their podcasts. Everywhere. Acast helps creators launch, grow and monetize their podcasts everywhere. Acast.com Something else you said on that podcast episode that I wanted to ask you about was being attracted to instability and people who you know are either not good for you or won't give you what you want and the reason I want to ask you about that is because that is very much something I have done and do too um and you know you're doing it that's the most annoying thing like you know someone will say to you they are not treating you the way you want to be treated they are being terrible to you and you you acknowledge it and you say yes I know but still can't wait for them to text me back

you acknowledge it and you say, yes, I know, but still can't wait for them to text me back. So I guess my question to you, because it's like a form of self-harm. We have like cognitive dissonance about it. It's so weird. But I want to ask you, do you think we can get to a point where that kind of craving for instability is satisfied in a stable relationship? So you kind of have both is that possible do you think yes and this is what I'm learning so the part where when I said like because I completely get what you're saying and we do it's it is a bit like a drug it's like we you know we think we want certainty but yet we crave the opposite like it's what it's really about is finding that sweet spot between the two between like safety safety and danger you know it's like we actually need a bit of both but it's just about

where did the ingredients go to make that feel stable and to give you a fulfilling life where you can actually function as like a good human being and get on because the thing is when you're like in your early 20s it's it's fine in a way to be like totally consumed by your romantic disastrous situation that's like making you go from one end of the spectrum to the other it's fine because you don't have that much responsibilities but when you're like you know when you're approaching 30 or in your 30s like you don't need that crap you really don't and it's actually so consuming and just not what you want so what you actually this is what i think so you want to find a partner or a person that meets you on your values whatever your individual values are that can show up and is like choosing to participate in the relationship but there is

enough space between you and them and this is what I mean about like where we romanticize that like enmeshment at the beginning like and that's why it's actually really important to be slow like when you sleep with someone like not slow when you sleep with them but to take your time to take your time because you actually get a lot more clarity like all that stuff just clouds everything that kind of like set like that sexual chemistry just like really you know we know it clouds our judgment so if you can like be measured enough about it to create the space between you and that person and you're taking you're both taking steps in the right direction doesn't matter if they're slow or like not exactly the same time

but in the space in between is where you can then like nurture that a little bit of danger a little bit of excitement a little bit of uncertainty because that person you were aware that you don't own that person that person doesn't own you you are two autonomous agents that are like participating in this thing together and there's an excitement there so it's like it's a very similar kind of energy but it's from a safe place versus that kind of like attachment enmeshment where you're pushing and pulling and it's all quite traumatic and turbulent does that make sense yeah it does it does and it's it's interesting what you said about sex as well because I think you know obviously we're in lockdown now so a lot of people

have been kind of forced into a period of celibacy for the uh until we get a vaccine pray for the vaccine for everyone's libidos and sex lives um but but i think that could be beneficial in a way couldn't it like because it's like what you were talking about we kind of have this thing today where a lot of people will argue you know the quicker you sleep with someone the quicker you can test whether or not you are compatible with them and it's a really good way of kind of cutting the fat from the dating pool, so to speak. So that's what a lot of people say. But actually, I think, you know, casual sex culture can be really damaging.

And it also, it doesn't work a lot of the time because, you know, if you keep it up with one partner, chances are one of you is going to develop feelings for the other and if those feelings aren't reciprocated then it could be quite difficult uh so like you said you know having that kind of period of abstinence which you know a lot of us will be unwillingly experiencing at the moment could really help um do you think is it is it something you would ever try if you weren't in lockdown just like an enforced period of celibacy if you were single would you ever actually put that on yourself as a kind of like a learning experience I mean I've experienced it but I wouldn't say it's like been

like a conscious decision I'm like oh it's been a really long time but um I have like quite a lot to say on this stuff so i think firstly it's it's a i do believe that it's like gender specific what we're talking about i think that we as women are more likely to form an emotional attachment after sleeping with a man because it's just something that happens chemically i can't go into the details i'm not a scientist but someone's explained it to me before and it makes sense whereas for men it's it's not the same so i think we think that we're it's just to have the awareness are you are you behaving in that way quite early because you're trying to force a connection and to like fake intimacy because we and i definitely thought growing up like intimacy was about

sex but it's actually I'm realizing it's it's nothing to do with sex intimacy is like a totally different thing we can get into that but so actually having that experience with someone like you need to be really aware of like establishing, I think the connection in a, in a real place. So there is a great opportunity right now to do that. And I think that we are living in such a modern world where it's like that stuff is rushed because we are given options galore. Do you know what I mean? So on some level we think, well, if I,

if I don't, they're going to just go and like find somewhere, somewhere someone else and I think that that we may say that it's oh because I want to know and I want to see like what what I'm working with and whatever and I understand that argument but if you're really truthful with yourself I think it's probably a bit more to do with the fact that you're afraid that if that doesn't happen soon they're gonna go they're gonna go I think if they're gonna go it's it's nothing to do with whether you sleep with them early or not you actually are gonna know whether the person is serious about you more quickly if you if you don't sleep with them and if they do stick around because then that shows that they are actually willing to you know invest the time in wanting to get to know you which they

should which everybody should but it's also like someone explained it to me and I thought this was really interesting because at the end of the day like we are primal beings and when we really like someone we think not consciously but on some level that if we sleep with them we've we've um we've won it's like it's almost like an animalistic thing of like conquering someone whether that's like a man to a woman a woman to a man it doesn't make a difference it's like in that moment you've conquered them you have them but it's fleeting and it doesn't mean that the relationship has good healthy foundations yeah it's so it's so true like I've experienced that so many times and I've actually it's something that you have to consciously unlearn and really kind of watch

yourself on like I remember I was dating someone and and they wouldn't sleep with me on the first date even though I wanted to and I was like really offended by it and I was like god this means this means he doesn't like me this means it's not gonna happen and he was like no no I just don't like we just shouldn't do that yet and it was the first time someone kind of yeah it was so nice and I was like oh shit am I that person that just thinks that this is this is how I'm gonna get validated and this is what I need in order to know that like it's like a self-esteem thing like you said that you need to and yeah it's just about validation thinking okay this person likes me

but then it makes no sense because there are so many like think of all the people you've slept with and then never had any subsequent relationship with but that's the thing you know in our society we are taught as women to believe that like being desired means like being accepted and liked it's just an extension of that so it's like if someone wants to sleep with you like oh they they like me they like like who I am I therefore like must be available and it's just not true and it's quite like that i think that there's a massive movement in like conscious men actually so men that are that way inclined will be like no i'm taking we're taking our time with this because you do go into it with you should go into it

with equality it's not like one person oh you're just i find you desirable like so you should be so flat and therefore sleep with me it's like okay we're doing this together we both want to be on the same page about it you should be able to take as long as you like the thing is people have never not people I can't generalize but a lot of people have never actually taken the time to consider like is this really actually what I want to be doing or am I just doing it because I'm being desired and I find that flattering and therefore that's what society tells me like sex is so much of sex for women is about their male counterpart desiring them and they don't feel like they can access their sexuality without that thing being there and so if it's there and someone's being like yeah you are you know desirable then

we feel like we have to to act accordingly and going back to what you said about intimacy earlier that's also really interesting because I'm just trying to think you're right like sex it can be intimate and physical contact can be intimate but to me I think the most intimate things you can have with a partner it's like I don't know if you both have food poisoning and you're both like holding hands on the bathroom floor because you're both sick or you know someone's just taking care of the other when you're ill or it's it's like you're in your most kind of vulnerable moment where you literally cannot put up any kind of guise or pretense and you know that you're both really seeing each other as you are that's

the most intimate thing surely and one could argue that you see you know when you're having sex you're naked and you're seeing someone as they are but I don't think you are because I think we we're so performative in sex a lot of the time I mean you just hit the nail on the head like that is should be true but most people because again the way that we were educated about sex is very performance based especially at the beginning when you don't really know the other person so but yeah intimacy it's it's all about vulnerability and vulnerability we find the scariest thing because it's about like showing up and being seen in our raw unfiltered version of ourselves and risking rejection and we're all terrified of that rejection so we we avoid it actually at so many costs because we don't feel

safe to be to be that way with someone and it is that sort of the paradox isn't it it's like you can't get that reward without the risk and we always try and like guarantee the reward without taking any risk. But it's like, sometimes I think marriage is a bit like that. It's like trying to guarantee security and safety. And it's like, well, if they're going to cheat, they're still going to cheat. You know what I mean? There's actually something kind of like amazing about some, to go back to that like when you create that that slight friction between like that this person could leave tomorrow if they choose to

there's something sort of like erotic about that yeah it's it's it's like a turn on it shouldn't be and you know it shouldn't be but it is we're animals like we need that sense of sort of danger we need to keep it alive that's why often when people get married and they're like oh I've conquered him I've got him and then it's like all the kind of everything just disappears out the window because you don't realize that you need that now I cannot let you go without asking you about Maiden Chelsea because because I so I'm 26 so when the first season came out I was 17 and I remember staying up on a school night to watch it with all my friends and we just adored it like the seasons when you were on it uh now I do still watch it but I don't really enjoy it as much it's it's it's

it's kind of a different show now um but back then god it was juicy so I need to ask you because you were you were 22 when you did that right I was 22 I was 20 I was even 21 when I started no that must have been that must have been so nuts for you putting putting your life or a version of it on tv for the world to kind of analyze and scrutinize do you think did you realize what you were signing up for when you when you did that i mean can you ever really realize that you're going to sign up like it was such a new thing at that time reality tv and i definitely think to kind of like tie into the themes we're talking

about like at 21 that's such a pivotal time in your life where you you think you're an adult and you think you know who you're supposed to be in the world but actually i would say that made in chelsea was like a complete manifestation of like all the things during my teen years i thought would make me happy and essentially it was quite i don't want to be rude about it but it was like quite a vacuous sort of tv show and it didn't really have that much substance to it just like I mean everyone's thinking it so in many ways like that was and I know it's like well why would you want to be that but I kind of figured like oh if I was like this version of myself to

the world then I'd avoid like all these things, all these painful like human things like rejection and abandonment and everything. So then it kind of like suddenly I was almost playing that role of myself. And, you know, don't get me wrong, it was a lot of fun, but it was just like it was so ungrounded for me as a person. And, you know, other people might have had a great experience doing it. There were definitely times when I loved it, but I was just like, I was all over the place. And it was, it's weird because it's like looking back. It was a chapter of my life.

And it's like looking back at another person, really. If you could have the choice again to do Maiden Chelsea, would you have done it or not done it? You know, I used to like agonize over this thought a lot um especially around 27 I just was either living in like the past obsessing over the things I couldn't change or sort of like agonizing over an uncertain future I was like never really in the present and now what I really try and and do is like be present with stuff and that means thinking that things can't have gone any other way than the way they did because they didn't

you know because it's just like what is the point in wishing something was different? Because there was so many great opportunities there. And I think this is like such a key theme to your Saturn return. Actually, it's like to be able to get out of a victimhood mentality is the most empowering thing. I think any individual can do when you're stuck in that, like, I wish different.

You are just like in a stagnant space you're not moving and actually like life and the universe or whatever way you want to look at it it's all like a maze anyway it's not a linear path and I think we think if we if we go about our life in this like really straightforward strategic way of like I'm going to meet this person at this age and then this will happen and then I'll get this job and then this promotion but it never really works like that and it's actually about just kind of letting go and like relinquishing control and just accepting that you know you're going to be thrown around in different directions and have different experiences but they're all going to be wonderful and beautiful in their own way it's not

to say they're all going to be filled with joy like a lot will be filled with silence but you need that color in your life you know you need to have that collection of colors so you can like create a masterpiece so I think it's really important not to actually ever think like I wish this didn't happen yeah I think it's actually really healthy to apply that to your relationships as well, because it's like, it's so easy to look back on, you know, bad relationships that ended badly or whatever, and just think, oh, I just regret it. And I wish I'd never, never been with that person. And then you demonize that person. And then actually you lose like two or three years of what was a really lovely relationship in which you grew and changed. And we just, we have such a weird approach to previous relationships. And it's almost like

we're kind of conditioned to just think, oh God, what an asshole. Let's just cut them out of my life. It's not healthy. It's so unhealthy to do that. And I actually always think it's a really bad sign when someone refers to an ex as like a psycho or whatever. Do you know what I mean? Because that is what we do. We sort of berate the other person in the demise of the relationship and villainize them. Because what does it do? It puts us on a pedestal of like, I didn't do anything wrong.

I'm perfect. And actually, the unfortunate truth is like you were a match for that on some level and that's what no one wants to look into they don't want to look at themselves they don't want to have to look in the mirror so as long as you're like oh that person's toxic no you don't have to accept responsibility we've spoken about so much today in terms of like pasts and our past choices I want to ask where are you at with all of this stuff now like are you still are you still going through like a kind of learning process with what you're with what you want in love are you still kind of actively trying to like unlearn some of the things that we've spoken about where where are you at the

moment obviously we're in lockdown so it's a weird time yeah I think it the truth is it's a constant process we never arrive at a destination of like completeness independently or with a partner we're always having to learn and unlearn but I definitely say that I have a different perspective on it now I want to you know the way I show up in relationships is is different like I say it's I don't just go to a default setting because that's what I've historically done I am and I'm really fascinated about you know relationships about human beings about how they all the layers that make them complex and interesting so I guess I'm at like an interesting place where I feel like I've done some work myself that allows me to probably invite someone different in and also to be able to see that

when it arrives. You know what I mean? If you haven't like started looking at yourself in that kind of way, I't know whether you'd recognize something good coming in now it's time for our lessons in love segment so this is the part of the show where I ask every guest to share one thing that they've learned from their previous relationship experiences I feel like there's so much that you could say for this Kagi I'm like I have nothing to say no because I thought about this part I'm like I wonder what I would say what I see happening is when people have like a pattern of behavior right in their relationship that perhaps isn't like a positive one and then they're not really aware why so So they just suddenly end up going, like they go for someone that's the opposite.

You know, when like, say anyone's like, I always go for unavailable men. And then suddenly they end up with someone that's like really available, but it's actually quite boring. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. So I think like what I'm learning at the moment,

and because I always used to look at people like that, like, I don't want to do that. And so I concluded like what I'm learning at the moment and because I always used to look at people like that like I don't want to do that and so I concluded that that meant I'd always have to go for that like kind of intensity like quite toxic kind of energy and I'm realizing that there's like a sweet spot in between but you have to be really smart to see it because when someone shows up that that is actually like a good thing in your life you're probably not going to be triggered you're not going to like not at the beginning anyway you're not going to feel like insecure you're not going to be wondering when they're going to message you and stuff like that because they aren't like firing off those parts of you and so what quite often happens is people just like overlook that person.

But like, I'm realizing now that actually, you know, having someone that's choosing you is the most important thing. And I don't know why as women specifically, we romanticize not being chosen so much. And we attach ourselves to the fantasy of another person that's literally not interested so it's like about reprogramming actually that if you don't feel like your world's upside down it might be not such a bad thing it's so true it's so true we're we're taught not to recognize that as meaningful but actually you're right like when when you're with the right person or when you have

met someone that you that is going to be good for you they're not going to bring out your anxieties and your insecurities they're not going to not text you back they're not going to make you feel like on edge the whole time they'll just it will just be yeah I do think that actually then it will then start bringing up stuff but in a different way in a way that like you're working through it together rather than someone just triggering you and then leaving you in that like place so it's like about finding someone that's like willing to to show up and work with you through that stuff and you vice versa to them that's it for today thank you so much for listening if you're a new listener to this show you can subscribe to us on apple podcasts spotify acast or anywhere else you can comment and leave us a rating too so that more people can find us

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