Love Lives - Emily Ratajkowski on sexual violence, feminism, and learning to say 'no'

Episode Date: November 11, 2021

Support Millennial Love with a donation today: https://supporter.acast.com/millennialloveThis week Olivia speaks to model, actor and writer, Emily Ratajkowski.The two discuss the relationship with your body, self-worth through the male gaze, and what it means to be a commodifiable asset - and the nuances that surround being exploited by that asset while capitalising on it. Emily gives an honest and raw insight into the sexual assault she experienced throughout her life, personally and professionally.They also discuss how publishing Emily's collection of essays, My Body, was her way of opening the closet door, turning the on the lights and staring the monster in the face.You can buy Emily's book here.Follow the show on Instagram at @millennial_loveSupport this show http://supporter.acast.com/millenniallove. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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Visit Peloton at onepeloton.ca. Hello and welcome to Millennial Love, a podcast from The Independent on everything to do with love, sexuality, identity, and more. Regular listeners might have noticed that this episode is outside of our usual schedule. That's because it's a particularly special episode featuring none other than Emily Ratajkowski. For those who may not know, Emily is a writer, model and actor whose new essay collection, My Body, is a thoughtful examination on sexuality, beauty and sexual violence. In this episode, Emily talks to me about losing control of how her body was consumed after the success of Blurred Lines. She talks about being exploited for the way she looks while also capitalising on it and the nuance that surrounds that

and how her perspective on choice feminism has changed. We also speak about violence against women and repressed memories of sexual assault and harassment. So please do bear this in mind before you listen. Finally, Emily makes some allegations against Robin Thicke in this episode. He didn't respond when we asked him if he wanted to comment on those allegations. Right, that's it. Now let's get on with the show. Hi, Emily. Thank you so much for joining me today. It's such a pleasure to meet you. I absolutely devoured your

book and I can't wait to talk to you about it. Let me start off by just saying congratulations. I think it's such a brilliant piece of work but also such an incredibly raw and honest one and I can't imagine it would have been easy to revisit some of the things that you write about. And so for those who aren't familiar with your writing, would you mind starting us off by just explaining what the essays are about and what compelled you to write them? Well, thank you so much for having me and thank you for reading the book and for all the generous compliments. Very sweet. The book is about my experiences and my relationship to my body as a commodifiable asset in our world, but also the experience of being a model and that being my profession,

but also just what it means to be a woman and the lessons that I've learned about self-worth through sort of the male gaze and how it's impacted me from female friendships in high school to my relationship to my body and so on and so forth. It's a collection of essays. And the response has already been pretty huge. I mean, buying myself back that piece that was published in New York Magazine last year was the most read piece on the website and I want to get into that essay a little bit later because that was absolutely brilliant as well but I guess I'd like to start by asking you about some of the points that you raise in the introduction of the book and in the blurred lines essay you write how in your 20s you believed that

because all women are sexualized and objectified in our society the idea of taking that into your own hands whether it be by posting a photograph of your body on instagram or doing a nude photo shoot felt empowering and that there was this idea of well i'm choosing to do this and therefore because I have autonomy in this situation and I can control how my body is being consumed it's a feminist act now that's a view that has come under quite a lot of scrutiny in recent years and I often find that conversations around it particularly among women for whatever reason put you at the center of those conversations. And I'm sure we'll get to that. But I know that now you see things differently. So can you talk to me a bit about what made you change your perspective on that? Yeah, so I think that, you know,

it's a conversation that's happening more and more with, you know, the rise of only fans and women are starting to think about kind of like striking back at revenge porn and whatever form that can take. And it's a really important conversation. And it's an interesting one from my personal experience. You know, I definitely not only did I feel like I was sort of a hustler who was working this system and was just using this thing, my body and my image to build a life and make a living, I also did feel like it was empowering, which isn't really a word that I think gets overused a lot these days, but it felt good for me and it felt like there was a shift in the power. And as I got older, I started to realize that I had a lot of anxieties, a lot of unhappiness that I couldn't put a finger on, a lot of like

feeling, rolling my eyes at certain aspects in my industry or being downright afraid of them or angry. And it wasn't until I started to really face those feelings that I realized that my politics were not aligning with my experience. And this book is really an investigation into what those experiences were and the nuance and the complicated aspects, you know, where there were moments or many, you know, times in my, in my life where it did feel like power or something close to power. Um, and, you know, I was complicit in, in dynamics that are, are complicated. Um, but yes, I do no long, I no longer believe, um, what I used to believe. Hmm. Yeah. It's funny. Cause I think no longer, I no longer believe what I used to believe. Yeah, it's funny because I think I've, as I've gotten older as well, have also had a similar reckoning and really changed my point of view because it's so, it's so seductive

to think, well, I'm taking the patriarchy into my own hands and I'm turning it on its head by doing exactly what you think I'm going to do. But then what you write at the end of the essay, the blurred lines essay is that, you know, you kind of realize that actually, even though you thought you were in control by doing that, it's impossible to ever be in control when that kind of power comes from the male gaze. Sort of a framework, and you're working within confines of that framework. and you're working within confines of that framework. Exactly.

So after Bloodlines came out, I guess you were kind of known for your body. Is that fair to say because of that video? And so as an intelligent human being, which you obviously are, with aspirations of being a writer at that point, I'm presuming, how did it feel to be propelled into global fame at that point exclusively because of the way that you looked?

So it felt really gratifying and really good. And I think that's one of the things that I explore in the book is how validating being becoming a famous woman for the way you look can be. And even just where the power lies in that. I mean, I think that the fact that I was able to publish this book and that it will hopefully be read by many people is in some ways because I built a name based on the way that I look and my body. So it's important to acknowledge that there is some truth in in that power um but what I realized is that I started to internalize I mean actually to be totally honest with you I don't think I realized this until I started writing um and then rereading the essays and realizing oh wow I internalized this feeling of I'm nothing more than a body and I think the moment that really struck me about that in the

essay is when you write about the the moment five years after doing the video when you remember something that happened with Robin Thicke on set that day could you tell us what he did and why you think you know as you write you didn't allow yourself to acknowledge that at the time because I think that's a really interesting thing like whenever I talk to people about consent and sexual misconduct there is often this lag in terms of when the incident happens to when you as a woman allow yourself to feel like that you have a right to be traumatized or whatever by it and that is obviously as a result of so many things about our culture but what what was it for you do you think well I mean I've I've really struggled with this because I don't think

there's language that correctly describes what it's like to not remember something that's inconvenient because even saying not allowing makes it seem like there was some sort of stopping of memory or inhibiting, but there was no conscious decision on my part to sort of remember only certain aspects from that shoot. Robin Thicke did grab my breasts without my consent at one point when we were shooting. And it was a very embarrassing, humiliating moment for me. But I, you know, really, I really never thought about it and brushed it off as sort of insignificant. And I think, you know, some part of myself, which I didn't even write about really also felt like, well, of course that happened. He's,

he was that guy, he was drunk on set. He was, he did have this, whatever, like, and why point out the kind of embarrassment that, that, that it shows about me not him I felt like it was very embarrassing for me which I do write about um because it then was so clear that I was just sort of this hired model whose body was being used really like however these men wanted to use it um and yeah I don't think that there is enough I don't have the words to describe what it means to stop, to not think about something like that, because, again, it doesn't feel like a conscious choice. And when it came to me, it was sort of a weird I had this weird feeling always when people would talk to me about the video and Robin Thicke. And I thought, oh, it's just because it's like when somebody, you know, writes a one hit wonder or their big first breakout song and they get tired of talking about the thing that they're known for.

And it wasn't until five years after the video that I allowed myself to have this memory and, you know, acknowledged it as real, as my reality being real. Yeah, I had the same experience when I was writing my book and I write about consent and me too. And it was only really in the process of writing that chapter when all of these memories suddenly came flooding back to me and things that I'd previously dismissed as my fault, or like you say, felt really, really humiliated about. It's only now that I realize that actually that that's not what happened and you kind of suddenly see things in a new way and I think

the idea of like pushing things back and not remembering those things I think it's just pure survival yeah mode don't you think it's just still yes I do think it's survival and I still think that there's a part of me that feels embarrassed even talking about it because you don't want to be the type of person, and I'm using this language, I don't think that it's correct, but it's how I feel, which is you don't want to be the type of person who can be a quote unquote victim, who can be hurt, or that there's any type of power over being used over you, or that you don't have agency over your body it made me feel weak rather than I wasn't thinking about what it said about him totally and having now had that memory and had time to process it and think about it how do you feel when you think

about that video now do you have any regrets at all no No. And again, this is something I write about in the book is, you know, I think that if I had actually flipped out on set and said, like, I'm done shooting or whatever, called my agent. I mean, I was really an insignificant, unknown model at that point. I don't think anything really would have happened except that I would have not had the career I did which you know is just a harsh reality but um that's that's the truth now sadly it's not the only instance of sexual misconduct that you write about in your essays I want to ask you about your first boyfriend uh who you call Owen in the book if that's okay so he sexually assaulted you when you were very young 14 15 I think is that right yeah and going to back to what we said before you know it was a similar thing in the

sense where you didn't kind of acknowledge what happened as assault at the time and given that those were your first kind of sexual encounters how do you think that has shaped the way that you view your sexual identity as an adult and I suppose also your body I think it took a very long time for me to feel like I could say yes or no to things it felt I think I had learned at a very young age, and it's something I write about in that essay, where, you know, I knew something bad was happening to me, but I didn't, again, did not say no, did not scream, did not, you know, make what I wanted clear. And I think as a woman who, you know, coupled with that sort of experience and then also being using my body in a way where it's considered not professional to kind of hand over your body,

or if you're on set and somebody says, I want you to wear this, or I want you to look like this, or I want you to get naked, you, you're taught by the agencies and by the industry that that's, you're taught by the agencies and by the industry that that's it, that it would be rude and problematic for you to have boundaries or to say no, because you're, you've been hired for, this is the job. And I think that those things work together to make a very, an experience of disassociating for me throughout my life and really into my twenties until I started to sort of say like wait I want I want certain things and I don't want other things and I I can't be afraid of of saying

that and speaking speaking to that you you write about how after Owen assaulted you and after you guys kind of lost touch you found out that he had assaulted another young woman whose family I think decided to press charges it's a very unfortunately a very common thing I think when something happens to you and you realize that actually you're not the only one obviously it was a conversation that happened a lot with me too but I think a sort of toxic byproduct of that conversation is that then there's this expectation placed on women that it's your duty to speak up if you've been sexually assaulted by someone so that you can then protect other women from that perpetrator and there was a lot of dialogue around me too particularly with women in the public eye who would say come forward I think Reese

Witherspoon was an example who would say yes something happened to me I'm not going to talk any further about it but then a lot of people criticized her for that where where do you stand on that issue because I think it's something that people don't really talk about enough yeah I agree with you I think it's a personal decision and I I wouldn't criticize anyone for deciding not to name or speak about their experiences. But I also think it's incredibly brave and important when women choose to do so, to talk and name their experiences. It's why I wrote this book in part. I did not, you know, seek out that other girl. I was very young when she pressed,

I think I was 17 when she went to press charges. I did not look her up. I didn't try to be in communication with her or tell really anyone. It did make me think about my own experience with Owen. And it is sort of of was actually the first steps for me to even writing this essay, whatever, 10 plus years ago. So I'm grateful to her for what she did. But I don't think it should be on some kind of responsibility placed on women to tell their story. I think it's a really difficult thing to do. And, you know, we do have a culture now where we sort of lift these women up for, you know, for telling their stories and whatever. But I think that we also know the reality, which is that might be what's on Twitter, but like what happens

in people's minds and behind closed doors, the conversations about those women are different. closed doors the conversations about those women are different um and they are there are consequences to being the type of person who who tells the inconvenient story that no one wants to hear about a man that they liked or that they think of as powerful absolutely and i've interviewed a few harvey weinstein survivors and the thing that really struck me was they said to me you know there are he's the tip of the iceberg there are so many men in this industry in particular and I know there are plenty in fashion as well that we don't know about publicly for whatever reason yeah I mean I think the the thing that I always want to say you know to people about this is there's this kind of thing of like well not all men but then like if we are able to name the men that are this way, there will be some kind of healing.

And the truth is, is I don't think it's about good or bad men. I think it's about a system that men exploit sometimes subconsciously. And I think it's really important, you know, because we start talking about, oh, this man is actually a father also. And he has a daughter and blah, blah, blah. And it's like, of course, there are. I'm sure that, you know, every single person that has come out of Me Too and we look at and some of them are in prison. There are also probably people that they were lovely to and loving. And that's just the nuance and the complicated parts of of life

there's just not bad and good people there aren't bad and good men but if we change the system that allows for this kind of behavior and teaches men that it's okay um that that's our hope how has it felt for you having well obviously at the time of we're speaking, the book's not out yet, but Buying Myself Back was so widely read, as we know. And, you know, and the stories in your book will also be widely read. How has it felt for you putting those experiences, particularly those of sexual violence, on the page and having other people read them and presumably get in touch with you about it? Has that been an overwhelming experience I can imagine yeah I was very um afraid before buying myself that came out because I had not ever I had never um exposed myself in that way um and I'm using that language aware of irony. Yeah, I felt now I'm like, okay, I see why people actually responded the way they did, but it felt almost impossible that people were going to feel empathetic.

Um, and I had a lot of moments of why am I, why did I, not only why did I write this essay, but why am I publishing it specifically? And I think I'm having a little bit of a version of that around the book in some ways. Um, and I'm, I'm scared. I'm totally scared of how people are going to react and how it's going to feel. Um, the only thing I will say is that there is such a freedom in talking about opening the closet door and turning the light on and looking the monster in the face. So for me, personally, that has been writing these stories more than publishing them has been incredibly important to making me a better person. Can I ask what is your biggest fear about the book? Is there one thing that you keep thinking about? What if people say this or something I get cancelled? Or is there one thing that you keep thinking about? Oh, my God, there's so many

different things. But I mean, I think one of them, which is sort of on a different note is, you know, I, I really worked hard. And it would be such a shame if nobody, if everybody just wrote it off as sort of another celebrity memoir, fluffy, whatever. And, you know, I write about this in the book as this like need to prove myself and to be taken seriously. And I think that is very much still a part of me. And I wish that it wasn't something I needed external validation for. But definitely there's a part of me that's afraid that I won't receive that with this. And that will be a whole new thing I have to work through and deal with. Yeah.

And then I do think there's, you know, there's so much going on in the world. There are so many stories to be told. And it's very hard for me at some moments to think that mine is an important one to be considered. But then I think about other women and that really helps, you know, the conversations that were started after buying myself back about the way that models are treated, about young women's experiences in this actual industry where their bodies are being traded on and their image is being used. those conversations. And I hope it leads to, if not at least some change within the industry, at least a change in an awareness in women's minds and young girls' minds when they're signing up to become a model. Can trees help us grow more resilient to climate change? At the University of British Columbia, we believe that they can.

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visit ubc.ca slash forward happens here. ACAST powers the world's best podcasts. Here's a show that we recommend. I'm Jessie Kirkshank, and on my podcast, Phone a Friend, I break down the biggest stories in pop culture, but when I have questions, I get to phone a friend. I phone my old friend, Dan Levy. You will not die hosting the Hills after show.

I get thirsty for the hot wiggle. I didn't even know what thirsty meant until there was all these headlines. And I get schooled by a tween. Facebook is like a no, that's what my grandma's on. Thank God Phone a Friend with Jesse Crookshank is not available on Facebook. It's out now wherever you get your podcasts. ACAST helps creators launch, grow, and monetize their podcasts everywhere. ACAST.com. One of the essays that I actually found really dark was transactions uh so in it you write about

being a 19 year old model and being taken along to free dinners and club nights with a club promoter who you call Sasha who was employed by a group of rich men to essentially find young models for them to party with um I think there are some really harrowing moments in this essay like when you go to Coachella with a group of girls and you're exhausted because you've been traveling for hours so you try to go to sleep the club promoter tries to wake you up you guys don't want to get up and so then he sends this other model out she's wearing like just a thong I think and I remember it like really viscerally because I can picture it in my head and then she's like okay just like go do that thing that we talked about and she's like okay and she runs off and screams like jacuzzi time to this prince and I

just I just found it so horrifying so I want to ask you know how much does this stuff go on in this industry and and when did it stop happening to you and did it stop when you became more successful so I yes I think that I um I dipped my toe in a world that freaked me out. And I was scared by it. And I think that essay for me was sort of writing about, again, a shift in perspective for me as I've gotten older. Because I think when I was younger, there was a part of me that felt like I was, I don't know, savvier or, you know, that those girls who were hustling in that way, who were working that system, somehow we're doing something. I mean, it definitely frightened me. And I would have said that. But also, I think there was a part of me that was like, oh, they're over there,

and I'm over here and that we are different in that way. And the essay is really to realize, like, no, we're all on the same sliding scale of, you know, these kind of transactions where, you know, what your lines are and what you're okay with accepting and doing for money or for fame or for safety or comfort, survival is really just a personal decision and we're all on the same kind of, um, system of compromise. Um, those things definitely still go on. I don't really go to nightclubs very often, but right before the pandemic, I did, I went, it was at a restaurant and there was a nightclub above and I went in to have a drink. It was early. And I saw a party promoter come in with about 12 girls. Um, and I say girls with intention because they were definitely under the age of 21.

And they looked very, very young. So it's definitely still going on. The whole way that it's set up is that, you know, working models don't make that much money. And one of the ways that they lure girls to come to these to go out is to provide a really large free meal ahead of kind of party night. So it's still going on. Yeah. And you also mentioned about famous men in nightclubs. And I've also heard about this happening from models I'm friends with where these famous musicians or actors go to nightclubs and they get their entourage to handpick girls again girls from the club to come and hang out with them it's just it's just horrific and I know that that that happens a lot and you write

about an example of it yeah I mean I've experienced that personally and also I know I mean so many and it you know the thing is is it totally is different when you're you become famous and you're a name but it's still the same thing it's just 20 times scarier when you're an anonymous girl a lot of the essays in which you write about kind of being taken advantage of in some way they obviously happen when you are quite young and before like you said before you became the successful person you are today do you think then that your success and your public profile gives you a degree of immunity against that level of exploitation because people feel like they can't necessarily get away with it anymore yeah I think it's that is 100% true when people have

talked to me about you know blurred lines in the music video and said, like, do you think this would happen today or whatever? It's like, well, certainly not today for me because I'm, you know, now protected in a way. And I think, again, that's the important thing to talk about is the complicated truth of that. You know, it did actually by sort of working the system, I was able to gain some immunity. That being said, I still experience power dynamics all the time that are uncomfortable and complicated. I wouldn't say that they're always so, you know, it's like everything in the book, not everything's so clear cut. And there's people who will read these essays and see things one way and see things another. And that's my goal, because I wanted to be as honest as I could about every angle.

But no, I definitely think that these power dynamics exist for women at all levels. And when you say you still experience them, do you mean on a professional level or a personal level or both? Both. Professionally, I have made the choice to not put myself in situations where the power dynamic is one that could allow for, you know, manipulation or someone to take advantage of. And it's something that I've actually, you know, I think my career has taken hits because of that, because I'm unwilling to sort of play those games just because I know that it's not good for me. It doesn't it doesn't make me feel safe um but yeah and I think definitely I mean I am married but I have so many I I know what it's like in the dating world and it's

extremely difficult um for women and there's power dynamics at play even on a grabbing a drink with a tinder date you know yeah actually going back to blurred lines after that went viral how did that impact your dating world because you were 21 I mean how what happened it must have been a complete switch it wasn't because I had made the choice to stay in monogamous relationships where I wasn't even necessarily really into them because it made me feel protected. So I didn't even sort of allow for there to be. And it felt really great, you know, if I was at some party and such such and such actor had put me out in the you know room or this famous powerful guy had you know made it clear that he wanted to sleep with me I could sort of say well like I have a boyfriend you know and it felt really good to have that so bleak though that it required the protection or not protection,

but you know, that kind of degree of Oh, I have another man to look after me. Therefore, I don't need you to try and impress me. It's really bleak. And it took me again, a long time because I had kind of shame around these relationships that I had in my 20s and felt embarrassed that I didn't have more of a sort of like going out experience. And eventually, you know, I thought about it really hard. It was like, actually, this was just all of this was set up to make to protect myself. And, you know, I'm, it's a, it's a strange thing and complicated. And I think that I probably hurt some people along the way by trying to protect myself. But that was just my reality. And that's how I handled it. In your essay, BC, Hello, Halle Berry, you write about

your relationship with Instagram, which I find really interesting, because it sounds like a very conflicting relationship that you have with the platform, which is true of anyone I know who's on it, regardless of how many followers they have, myself included. Given everything we've spoken about so far and everything you write about in that chapter, how do you feel when you post a photograph of yourself on Instagram now? And what would you say drives you to do it? So it's a really complicated, I'm in a complicated place with Instagram.

You know, initially Instagram was sort of how I felt in control and built a platform and an identity and my image. And it felt really powerful to be able to dictate that, that image. that image. And, you know, sort of also at that point, you know, models traditionally before Instagram, before social media, they had to rely on media, other photographers, magazines, they made the edits, like you didn't get to control any picture or image of you. And so it felt so good for me to, you know, I do a magazine shoot and I wouldn't like any of the images, but I could post a picture of me in my outfit from that day and people would love it. And it felt so validating also because it felt like, oh, well, this is me, you know, people like me. And it was something I was good at and took pride in was sort of building a following. Like everybody with Instagram, also it's this incredibly empty, um, totally not real, um,

way of feeling good about yourself. Um, for me, it is especially complicated because it's also how I make a living. Um, I do paid posts. I do sponsored posts for brands, if I shoot a campaign, there's always, you know, required postings. And so now, you know, I have my own business that I promote through Instagram. And that feels better. But it's also really complicated. I mean, I'm going to continue to model. And I'm going to continue to work in this industry, even though I'm also a writer, partly because I am I want to continue to have a successful career. And Instagram is attached to that. If if it wasn't attached to it and if there wasn't that same level of social and professional capital that you could gain from the platform do you think you would even be on it I mean it's a really hard question to ask you know I have the like close friends

setting or whatever on Instagram and it's just only pictures of my baby and dog um but I wonder I mean it's it's like wearing makeup or something in some ways. Like, yes, I still want to feel pretty and I want the world to see me as such. Totally. And I think that's the thing I hope people connect to in that essay is that it doesn't matter how many followers you have. You can have 28 or 28 million and you still are kind of looking for that external validation through social media totally you also get a lot of criticism for some of the things that you post sometimes and obviously when you have 28 million followers that criticism I can imagine feels very loud and inescapable. I guess a recent example from when we're talking is when there was a photograph posted, I think two weeks after you gave birth. And people were talking about how flat your stomach looked. And they were very angry about it.

How did that make you feel? Because I think you ended up deleting the post, if I'm right in thinking. And obviously, you just had a baby at that time. What was your head like at that situation? How did you feel? I mean, anyone who's had a baby knows that nothing else matters once you've had a child. And I was breastfeeding and just my body was going through absolute insanity. So my relationship to Instagram felt almost like you're, you're almost on drugs. It feels like a couple, I'd say two months postpartum because the hormones are so wild. And my relationship to Instagram was really strange. Like I remember

feeling I was like, I should post an announcement about the birth because we live in New York City. And the second we stepped outside of the apartment and people see, then I don't have control over, you know, announcing my child's birth. And that felt really important to me. So, you know, then I was kind of just like sharing things around the house and we have this new, um, like pajama set that, um, my company had just launched and I took a mirror video and, um, people just flipped out. Um, and I didn't let it get to me actually in that specific case, partly because I was in sort of cloud nine and this really safe bubble with my husband and my newborn and my best friend was here.

My two best friends were in town and I just felt like I'm not going to let this take away from the experience, but certainly in general, it can feel really loud. The only thing I will say is that I've learned, and it's something I hope that I hold close in the process of publishing the book, that, you know, everything is taken out of context by the media and by the internet. So things, the conversations that are happening don't even feel impactful sometimes because they're so inaccurate that I just can't even really sweat them. Yeah, I can imagine. So I imagine from this book, you know, someone's going to pull out one sentence and that'll become a huge conversation and there'll be op-eds and there'll be angry Twitter or whatever.

And I'm going to say, well, if you read the whole paragraph, you know, and people won you read the whole paragraph you know and people won't read the whole paragraph even if I say that so I think I just kind of started to understand that it's just it's not it's not worth sweating yeah I think we live unfortunately in a culture that just is completely immune to nuance because of social media I That's what the book is trying to get towards, towards is nuance. Totally. I want to talk about the chapter Pamela, because I found that really enlightening. You know, you write about being at this Hollywood party. And I was surprised to hear how much of an outsider you seemed to feel like at that party. And I think

it's Tina Brown who says that every good writer has to be an imposter in every room so I suppose as a writer it's probably a really good thing and it's probably part of what makes you such an observant writer but I want to know a bit more about why you think you find yourself feeling on the periphery in that kind of glamorous party scenario when to your fans and to outsiders like myself it would seem like that would be you know your homely environment where you would feel perfectly comfortable I mean I guess take the Met Gala you know I saw photographs of you there in this gorgeous Valentino gown not Valentino Vera Wang gown uh last week or whenever it was and you know did you feel like an outsider

that night um it's hard because and I wonder if other celebrities would agree with me I do have friends who are famous or work in the industry or models actresses um but it can feel very isolating um I do think that you know the Met gal is a little different than the party that I write about in the book. But yeah, you're, I mean, one of my friends was getting ready with me for the Met and she was like, are you excited? You know? And I was like, imagine you were going to a party, like a party that you would go to on a Friday night. And everything that you're doing, everything that you're putting on your body, the way you do makeup is going to be dissected by the whole world and the internet. And then the other people there also are experiencing that. And, you know, you're, you're so aware of being watched that it's very hard to connect or relax.

of being watched, that it's very hard to connect or relax. That's the Met Gala. The party that I went to, I think, is a relationship I have to the acting, to sort of Hollywood specifically, which is, you know, I was a theater kid. I loved, it's sort of the thing that was the gateway into modeling was that I really like took theater very seriously. We're talking when I was 12, you know, it wasn't as serious as a 12 year old can take something, which feels really serious. But once I started sort of, once I started modeling and working and thinking of acting, whatever, as a job, it, I started to really internalize the way that women are seen in that industry. And because I was also modeling, it put me in a very specific bucket of sort of model actress, which comes with a big, with limited sort of, people have ideas about what a model actress is. And I started to really be hard on myself and think that I was sort of worthless and that I had so much to prove and

that nobody thinks, you know, I'm good at anything. And I had a lot of casting couch experiences, you know, not nothing like what people experience with Harvey Weinstein, but where you're put in a position where you have to be flirty and you have to seem like you kind of want to sleep with this producer and, you know, whatever, and just seem like you're fun and what try to assess, which I think all women can relate to assess very quickly what a man wants from what kind of woman he wants you to be and do it for an hour or 30 minutes. And it made me feel really disgusting. And we're talking, these are auditions, you know, these are meetings around parts. So that, you know,

my husband works in the film industry, he's a producer. And it came up more and more for me because I felt I had a complicated relationship to his work. And that's what that piece is about. And finally, I just want to ask about your husband, who you refer to as S in the book. How has your relationship with him impacted the way you feel about your body and also how do you feel about your body now? So I think that, you know, being in a serious relationship where you're committing to someone has made me have to face a lot of these things because I needed to be able to be my best self as a partner and explain where my feelings were coming from. So that is something that I definitely feel so grateful to my partner for bringing out in me. And as far as my relationship to my body now, I think it's still kind of a journey. This book is not me writing from a quote unquote healed

place. It's still a really strange thing. I look in the mirror and I get dressed and I see how I'm going to be photographed. I think about how men will think of how my body looks and it's just automatic. It's there. So I don't know when that will change. That being said, I definitely have a new appreciation for my body and I'm learning to listen to it. So when I feel a physical reaction, I try to understand what's beneath it. And that's something. That's it for today. Thank you so much for listening. This will be the last episode of Millennial Love for a while while we take a little break. But keep an eye out for our Christmas special. If you're a new listener, you can

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