Love Lives - Gender fluidity and masculinity with Courtney Act

Episode Date: November 22, 2019

This week, Olivia is joined by Shane Jenek, aka drag queen and artist Courtney Act.The pair discuss how gender fluidity is perceived in 2019 and why there are still so many barriers to overcome with it comes to breaking down some of the stereotypes society attaches to masculinity and femininity.Support this show http://supporter.acast.com/millenniallove. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Acast powers the world's best podcasts. Here's a show that we recommend. will not die hosting the Hills after show. I get thirsty for the hot wiggle. I didn't even know a thirsty man until there was all these headlines. And I get schooled by a tween. Facebook is like, and now that's what my grandma's on. Thank God phone a friend with Jesse Crookshank is not available on Facebook. It's out now wherever you get your podcasts. Acast helps creators launch, grow, and monetize their podcasts everywhere. Acast helps creators launch, grow and monetize their podcasts everywhere. Acast.com Hello and welcome to Millennial Love, a podcast from The Independent

focusing on everything to do with sexuality, relationships, identity and more. We touch on a wide variety of topics ranging from how to have feminist sex to how dating has changed in the post-MeToo era. I'm your host Olivia Petter and today on the programme I'm joined by Shane Yannick who you probably know by his drag name Courtney Act. We're going to discuss gender fluidity. Enjoy the show. Hello. Fans will know Courtney as the amazing drag queen who won Celebrity Big Brother in 2018. Prior to that, Courtney starred on RuPaul's Drag Race.

And most recently, you came second in Dancing with the Stars Australia. I did. It's amazing. It was really fun. We were the first same-sex couple on Strictly or Dancing. And I mean, I was presented as Courtney most of the time. So you looked at it and you saw a man and a woman dancing together. But then for one of the dances toward the end, we did a tango foxtrot as two men.

And it was really cool. So today that actually fits really well into what we're going to talk about. We are going to discuss gender fluidity and how drag culture is breaking down some of the rigid structures we have around gender and sexuality. So Shane I will mention has arrived today not in drag. I guess my first question is how do you navigate between these two uh identities if you even really see it that way um I mean I feel like I'm always me but sometimes I look different to other people but internally I'm consistent but sometimes depending on how I look people treat me differently and therefore I react to that so like straight men are probably the ground zero where, you know, as

Courtney, they'll flirt quite often and I'll flirt back. But as Shane, they definitely don't flirt and sometimes can be intimidated by, you know, an effeminate boy. And how often do you dress as Courtney? These days, it's quite often just for work because it is sort of like, I guess it's like, what's a good example? If you, I don't know, it's like getting dressed up to go on a red carpet or something if you're in the public eye and you're going to events or you're going to work and then you probably used to enjoy getting dressed up to go out for a night out but when it becomes your job um when you have a night off you

tend to just wear flat shoes but every now and then I um I still like to get tarted up to go to like something fun that I know that I'll have fun in drag whether it be what did I go to recently yeah I went to a birthday party in drag because i just knew it was going to be a fun night and um and it was and when you are um dressing as courtney and i mean how does that does it impact your sexuality when you are sort of uh trading between these two even though it's it's you're obviously still yourself the entire time, but does it change your opinion on things? I mean, it changes my access to people. How so?

Well, because different people are attracted to me depending on how I look. I have a very broad spectrum of attraction. But yeah, depending on how I'm presenting, you know, for example, you know, straight identifying guys or guys who are into a broader sense of the label woman are often attracted to me, even though they are aware that I have a penis, um, they're sort of still interested. And I think it's because of this rigid, um, identification of sexuality of being gay or straight. Uh, but for my sexuality, um, I'm just sort of always attracted to fun experiences and nice people and good connections. And, um, there is

something, you know, when I'm in drag, there's, um, there is always like, there and um there is something you know when I'm in drag there's um there is always like there's there is like still like a slight element of taboo um and um there is something not all the time about men who are attracted to me as Courtney but quite often there can be like an element of taboo for them and that there's always like a little extra thrill in that but probably the most healthy relations are with people who are totally comfortable with their sexuality and and everything sort of acknowledged and on the table and do you find those people easier to come across those kind of people now when we live in a world where we have celebrities identifying as pansexual which which is the label you use for yourself isn't it I mean

I know you know labels are very strange things when it comes to sexuality because it's almost like how can you place someone in a box but because we live in a world where people like labels pansexuality is the term sort of applied isn it? And I like labels because I think that they help to bring visibility. And for me, hearing other people talk about labels has been what has helped me understand who I am relative to those labels. And so I identify as pansexual, which means that I'm attracted to people irrespective of their gender. I identify as pansexual, which means that I'm attracted to people irrespective of their gender.

I am mostly attracted to men, but I've had intimate relations with people of all genders. And I think actually like the whole sort of trans revolution that has been occurring over the past few years that's sort of leading to a bit of a gender revolution has been really important in blowing apart people's concept of gender and identity and sexuality and how they all intersect because although I'll do a little quick 101 your sex is biological so it's you know male female or intersex depending on what your chromosomes external genitals hormones all of that sort of stuff says and then gender is recognized as being sort of the social expectation of how we behave so like man woman and so on and then sexuality obviously is who you're attracted to and what the gender of those people are and I just found that the gender revolution, the trans revolution rather,

sort of just threw this idea of gender on its head for so many people. And having such prominent trans activists, whether it be, you know, Laverne Cox, shows like Pose, Transparent, Chaz Bono, heaps of amazing sort of non-binary people now emerging and coming into the public light. And I think that was sort of broken open by the trans revolution. And this conversation about gender, it always starts sort of in a polarised place, I guess. It was like trans or not. And now we're getting further down the rabbit hole, if you will. We're able to sort of like tease apart the edges and find out what's in the middle and have this discussion.

And I think there was a YouGov survey a couple of years ago that surveyed people in the UK and people from 18 to 24, I think it was 40, I'm not going to get the percentage exactly right, but it was like 48% of people aged 18 to 24 identified as not exclusively heterosexual. Yeah, I remember that. So, I mean, it's interesting that, and I think that statistic had a lot to do

with the way the questions were asked because it didn't ask people to label themselves or identify themselves. It just asked them about their experience and therefore sort of on paper, there was lots of people having lots of different sexual experiences with different genders, which doesn't really add up to what we think we know about the world. But I think the truth is that people and their sexuality is a lot more fluid than we realize. Yeah. And you see, you see people,

you know, getting it wrong all the time. I think one of the most obvious examples is people actually conflating gender with sexuality. Yeah. Because of those expectations that we have, which are obviously archaic and tied to, you know, tied to really heteronormative ideals. So you mentioned straight men. Yeah. Being at the sort of lower end of understanding. I know previously you said they're often both confused but also intrigued at the same time. Yeah. Why do you think they react like that? Well, I mean, men are very visual creatures.

And when I'm Courtney, I do look like, you know, a glamorous lady and their hormones and their blood rushes to parts of their bodies and they have, you know, a physical response to what they see and to what they interact with. And even when they're aware that I have a penis, they still kind of are intrigued. And I think that more behind closed doors, men are a lot more willing to explore because they're really afraid of what other people might say, what other people might think. But in the moment,

they're always sort of a little bit more exploratory and interested and I think younger people are a lot more open to that which is really cool like I've dated I would have been about 20 I would have been about 30 and I was dating a boy who was like 24 and he was from like the midwest in the, like straight, hadn't been with a guy before. We met when I was in drag and he was intrigued and then we started dating sort of then on as boys and like, I don't know, about a month into it, I remember him like talking about how he was talking

to his mum about me and talking to his friends and I was like wait what you told your mother and like I was the one having the reaction and I was like oh god we do live in a different time now where this boy in the midwest of America was just comfortable telling his mum that he was dating a boy and there wasn't like there was nothing like scary or big or like life changing about that. He was just at this time dating a boy. And actually when we broke up, he went back to dating girls and said that he didn't have attractions to other guys. But then he's now, you know, got a girlfriend and they're happy and together and he seems very open about it.

And I just think that was like so healthy and not it's uncommon, but it's becoming more common. Did you not feel comfortable having those conversations with your parents when you're growing up? Yeah, when I, I didn't really have the language to be honest until I was 18 and moved to Sydney and really understand, understood what being queer or same-sex attracted was. And, um, cause it was always negative. Like in the schoolyard, you're always called a poofter or a faggot. And it wasn't like, it didn't seem like it was something that you wanted to be like, you could definitely tell from the way the boys were saying it, that you didn't want to be those words. Um, so I just never understood that that's what I was, uh, until I had a more positive representation of it. There

was no examples of queer people in the media, you know, in the 90s in Brisbane, the most exciting people in the mainstream that I could attach my identity to were the Spice Girls. stream that I could attach my identity to with the Spice Girls. And yeah, so it wasn't until I really got to Sydney, I went to the Stonewall Hotel, one of my straight friends, Stephanie, took me along. I was like precarious. I was like, well, I don't know, it's not one of those gay bars, is it? And she was like, yes, sweetie, you'll love it. And I did.

And I kissed my first boy. And it was, yeah, and it all sort of made sense there once I had a framework, like, you know, with those labels and with those references that helped me to understand who I was. And it's much more visible now. Yeah, so much more. You know, I guess even using the example of RuPaul's Drag Race, that's such a mainstream show, giving drag culture such a major platform yeah i think in

the uk you actually have so much more um points of reference just through pop culture in general whether it be you know gay lesbian bisexual trans characters on you know soap operas and not just like token ones but like families yeah not where it's like that's their defining characteristic and that's part of their characterisation. It's just like this is a person in the show that happens to be gay or trans. And then just like through the history of the UK, like visible queer people from, you know, Danny LaRue, Lily Savage. I mean, these are all sort of drag or gender bending people.

Eddie Izzard, Grayson Perry, Boyd George, Dame Edna, like so many really high profile, visible sort of gender bending people in some aspect in the UK. And it's just something I think that the UK has grown up with a lot more than the rest of the world. I've lived in the US and I've lived in Australia and I think the UK has got the most sort of advanced relationship with masculinity and femininity and sexuality. Here's a show that we recommend. I didn't even know a thirsty man until there was all these headlines. And I get schooled by a tween.

Facebook is like a no. That's what my grandma's on. Thank God Phone a Friend with Jessie Crookshank is not available on Facebook. It's out now wherever you get your podcasts. Acast helps creators launch, grow, and monetize their podcasts. Everywhere. AAST.com Do you think that's also true for something like polyamory? I know that's something you've also touched on in the past. Well, it's funny, you know, because to me, I just like to do what feels good to me, being aware of, you know, other people as long as I'm not hurting anybody sort of thing.

And I have certainly found I've been in open relationships before where I've been dating someone and in love with that person and then found someone else attractive. And I'm pretty sure that is a universal experience. Like when you're in a relationship with someone, you don't all of a sudden find the rest of the world unattractive. Yeah, of course not. But I think that one of the advantages of being in a same sex relationship is that you didn't have a framework of reference to grow up with. And so you often have to create your own, or sometimes you just end up copying the heterosexual sort of model. But at some points you kind of like cotton on, you're like, hang on a minute, I don't have to follow those rules. I can actually make my own.

And I realized that love was not like pie. And that if I took a piece that there was less love to be had I realized that you know I love many people my family uh you know my mom and my dad and my sister and and whilst obviously love for a partner also has a sexual component. It's the same sort of like key element of love, I feel. And, you know, I don't love one parent more than another. And so, yeah, when I was with my partner, I realised that I was able to be attracted to have sex with, have, you know, interactions with other people and it didn't take away from

how much I loved my partner. How did your partner respond to that when you expressed that? They were on board. Although, interestingly, we had my first relationship that was open, we had a different understanding of what open meant. That's the thing, because it is so it's so vague. Obviously, you kind kind of as you said you make the rules up as you go along with yourself yeah and i think i was about 26 and i i i just thought an open relationship meant um that you could have sex with other people but not necessarily have you know go on dates and sort of be romantically involved yeah Yeah, I think that's probably what my understanding would be as well. Yeah. That you maybe have one partner. But I think that's different to polyamory.

I'd say open relationship, you have one partner, but then you also have other sexual partners. Whereas I'd say polyamory is just multiple partners. Yeah, I guess the poly meaning many and the amory meaning love. So it's like love for many. Exactly, yeah. As opposed to sex. But sorry, going back to the different understanding of open. Yeah, well, it's funny, because my partner at the time, he sort of like would like go on dates and things. And I was like, wait, this isn't what I meant. This was my idea. And you've got it all

wrong. And I remember then being like threatened by that. And now many years later, I actually kind of look back and I'm like, oh, actually, that make more sense. But also because I'm older now, I don't I'm not actually interested in having just sex with people. I want to have sort of connections and experiences. And like, I mean, yeah, that can happen over the space of a night. It doesn't have to be months. But I feel like, especially in the gay world, sex can be a lot more... I think in a same-sex world, there's a level playing field. And so there's a lot less negotiation and a lot less... There's a different power dynamic and all that sort of stuff.

So having casual sex, not to sound cliche or play into a stereotype, but I think having casual sex, you know, when you're two guys is easier to come by possibly or more socially normal than probably in heterosexual counterparts. Why do you think that is? Do you think it's just because heterosexual relationships are so like they abide by tradition? I think they abide by tradition. But I also think that when it's a man and a woman, there is a totally different power

dynamic and men have to consider, you know, men, I guess, like, biologically are, you know, sowing their seed kind of thing. And women are wired, you know, differently internally to men. And I think that there's, like, a negotiation that has to occur. And obviously that's a generalisation. But I think quite often, yeah, when it's two men, it can be, there's less negotiation involved. I guess like the gender stereotypes are almost abolished in those instances. And then also I think the other issue is that there are these other terms, you know, women aren't allowed to be sexually free in society. And so, you know,

it's that age old thing about a stud and a slut sort of thing. I think that there's a real revolution going on for gender and women and sexuality. That is all, I think, kind of tied into a similar thing. I think that homophobia is steeped in misogyny. I think that there's a real issue with masculinity and femininity. And I guess, you know, the topic of toxic masculinity is always close at hand. always close at hand and I think that in some weird way like the whole trans movement I think has been flipping the concept of gender on its head and just raising these like someone like Caitlyn Jenner for all of her flaws really bought the concept of being trans into a real mainstream environment where people like just had to like accept that there was this trans person you know in the kardashian family massively and i think even just the acceptance of her by the within the kardashian clan yeah

and i think in some ways that that everybody has to start to adjust their lens on gender and what it actually means. And obviously the trans experience is a unique one. But I think that when you look at this idea of gender and, you know, blue being for boys and pink being for girls and that girls have to sit a certain way and act a certain way and boys you know again sit a certain way and act a certain way you kind of just realize that it's it all doesn't quite make sense no but also i think it's important to note that it does actually really have a big impact on the way that we behave in relationships because you have men conforming to these ideals these toxic masculinity ideals of being you know strong and maybe a little bit more aggressive and you know trying to get really physically built whereas you know you have women sort of playing up to that and almost glamorous looking glamorous and

being like demure play things for the men to just sort of take whenever they fancy yeah even like opening doors you know it's funny with me opening doors sometimes I'm a man and sometimes I'm a woman and it really confuses me because I'll be wandering around and like I'll open a door for a lady when I'm Shane and then when I'm in drag I feel like it's almost rude to not let a man open a door and it just causes so much like every time I approach a door, I'm confused and stressed. It's so funny because these small things are so entrenched in us that it's only when you really look and question them

that you realise how strange they are. Yeah. Like why is it that men are the ones that open doors? Yeah. And like why is it that men wear, like Catherine Hepburn in the 20s wearing a pair of trousers was revolutionary. Now we don't think that women wearing pants trousers is all that crazy. But then like the idea of a man wearing a dress or a skirt is still kind of like this crazy far out thing,

but only like in certain contexts. Like if you look at muslim men they're wearing a form of dress and nobody thinks that's peculiar because it's part of their religious doctrine um and weirdly like religious folk who tend to be the ones who are most insistent on those sorts of um ideals uh many times are the ones breaking like the Pope. I mean sheer fancy. Like she's got all that bling and that lovely dress and all of that finery on. But then like I mean you would really only see that like on Liberace or Elton John back in the day. But yeah, it's kind of just fascinating

how people can have such strong opinions. And I suppose for me the more I go down the rabbit hole the more confused I get because people think that it's strange that I'm a boy that dresses as a girl but I think it's strange that you think that because I'm a boy I should dress a certain way or behave in a certain way or be attracted to a certain type of person yeah i guess my last question would be how do you think we how do you think we develop as a society to the point where that is no longer strange i mean i think we're heading there and i think that um it's i think i've noticed that i am often guilty of seeing social trends and thinking that they're

going to be around forever uh especially the negative ones. Or like cancel culture, for example, has been a popular thing lately. And I just read an article in the LA Times that Sarah Silverman wrote about, we need to cancel cancel culture, which I agree with in most situations. Obviously, there's some people that are just douches that deserve to be cancelled.

But for minor infringements or for major one-off infringements, where the person has shown that they've learnt, I think that it's important that, like, if I had an iPhone when I was 18, or 16, or 14, I would definitely have been cancelled. I think we, I think most people who lived in a pre-smartphone world would have been cancelled. And I just think that, I think that you often think like when cancel culture is the big thing, you think it's going to be here forever. And I think the thing that is truth is that we, we go through these different phases and we evolve and we learn and, and that the good things won't be here forever and the bad things won't be here forever, but it is a constant evolution and it looks like it's heading

in the right direction. I think at the moment it might have been, we might have taken three steps forward and like two steps back because there's been a real big correction, you know, with someone like Trump in the US and, you know with a you know someone like trump in the u.s and um you know in the uk the you know ukip and the right sort of and the christian right sort of the extreme christian right um but then again a part of me wants to think that maybe that's part of why we're seeing an uprising in in in progression because you know these uh these sort of outdated views have such a big platform now

that maybe people are finally being exposed to the horror of that and actually feeling compelled to act against it. Yeah. I mean, I don't know if it's a, it's a kind of a chicken or the egg. Like I look at marriage equality as being a big thing around the world that I think probably upset a lot of people on the far right. And I have thought that a lot of this sort of far right rhetoric that's been quite vocal lately has been, you know, in response to that when it comes to gender and sexuality. And I think we're heading in the right direction. I think that more visibility in the media is really important. I think more honest and genuine characters. And look, it's not just queer. It's not just, that's the thing, the conversation about gender and sexuality isn't just about queer people. I think in actual fact, it's most beneficial to, you know, toxic masculinity.

And I think that trying that there's a lot of finger pointing with toxic masculinity, like looking at what the problem is, which is important. But I think what is most, the most beneficial sort of thing to toxic masculinity is um like having up amplifying you know masculine voices that aren't toxic um and showing examples of men who are have healthy relationships with um you know their masculinity masculinity isn't a bad thing um i ended up in brooklyn a few weeks ago at like a stranger's house um like i was with some friends and they were friends of a friend and he was sort of like a gun owning republican who started it was like midday we'd all been drinking and and then he started talking about like oh toxic masculinity you know what's wrong with masculinity and i was

like no there's nothing wrong with masculinity no it's just it's just a way of uh addressing things that you've never addressed before and questioning why is it that men need to be physically stronger than women yeah why is it that women have to be i mean men are physically stronger than women but to the point where it's like you know a woman getting muscly in the gym might be criticized because it's like, oh, she's too bulky. Yeah. You know, because that isn't typically an aesthetic that we have applied to men. Yeah. And I think that, I think that like, yeah, there's nothing wrong with masculinity.

Some men are, you know, by characteristic really masculine. But I think it's this imposed expectation of society that men have to be a certain way and when they're not allowed to be that way and when they feel that they I think that I think the other thing that's interesting I I read this book called the velvet rage and the sort of subtext was growing up gay in a straight man's world and it talked about this concept of gay shame and I was reading it and I was like, oh, I don't know what that means. Like, I love being gay. It's, you know, I love, I love all of the stuff that goes with it. And then as I kept reading it, I was like,

oh my God, I never knew that I had like all of this shame about who I was. It was so entrenched and so deep that I never was even aware that I had shame about liking boys and what it was like growing up in a world that had no examples of role models in the media, that had no examples of same-sex relationships or anything like that. And how that lack of visibility sort of breeds shame inside you. You think there's something wrong with you because you don't see yourself reflected back. And I think intrinsically, men aren't toxically masculine. I think they're just forced into this sort of world. And I think that if there was more examples that showed them that they were allowed to cry and have emotions and they could still be men um then that would be positive now

it is time for our lessons in love segment um so this is the moment where i ask guests to share something they have learned from their relationship experiences um so i think yours uh shane is actually really interesting because it's something that i think is actually talked about quite a lot now um i think uh i mean i'll let you introduce it but it's a it's about that I think is actually talked about quite a lot now. I think, I mean, I'll let you introduce it, but it's about this concept of failure. And that is something that I think people are looking at in a different light at the moment, because obviously, you know, it goes back to that old adage of, you know, what you, what doesn't kill you makes you stronger, learning from your mistakes. So how does that apply to you in terms of your relationships?

Well, relationships, you go into a relationship and, I mean, I don't know, I'm constantly putting the cart before the horse. You know, you meet someone and then you're planning the rest of your life together and I'm like, stop that. Like, let's just go on the date first. And then you're in the relationship with them and you're fantasizing about this ideal sort of probably Disney-provided script of how your relationship should be and you fall in love

and you think that that person is the one forever. And I remember when sort of my first sort of main relationship ended, I felt like I was a failure because the relationship ended. And I thought that we were together forever and that we had failed somehow. And I realized it was actually just the expectation that it was supposed to be forever. And that, you know, Hollywood ideal that relationships were supposed to last forever that made me feel like a failure. But I realised that we came together perfectly. This was with some time reflecting back.

I realised that we came together perfectly and we ended perfectly and that relationships, most of them, are not forever. There are very few that are forever and actually, well, none technically forever because someone, unless both people die at the same time, which would be tragic. Which never happens. Which never happens. Apart from in the notebook.

Yeah. So really no relationships last forever and that all relationships like the rest of life is fluid and it, you know, transforms and changes shape and there's good bits and there's bad bits and it's more about um sort of accepting reality is rather than as you want it to be and I think that I was attached to this idea that my relationship was going to last forever and that was actually what was bringing me the most heartbreak when I broke up with my sort of my first love um and I think actually that attitude can

probably just cause a lot of problems within the relationship when you're still together because it's almost like every little issue becomes exacerbated because you're like well this is the person I'm supposed to spend the rest of my life with but it's like well no that shouldn't be your mindset that every relationship is forever because you know looking back you know there's there's no way you're going to look back on a three-year relationship and every single day in that relationship was awful just because you broke up. Yeah. And people do that.

They're like, oh, it was all a lie. And I'm like, no, it was all lovely when it was lovely and it was shit when it was shit. Like we love to like sugarcoat and idealize things so much. And I think that having a real dose of realism, realizing that your relationship won't last forever, and that's okay. And I think also sometimes we get into relationships, maybe for the wrong reasons, where we're trying to validate our own identity forever. And when we

place so much of our own identity on the validation we get from being in a relationship, when it does end, we feel like, you know, we're not, we feel like our identity has been ripped apart. And I think that, you know, coming together with somebody, you need to, you can definitely learn a lot in a relationship. I used to think that you had to be like, I have to be whole and complete and I can share that with someone else. And some part of that is true. But I also think you can learn a lot from being with someone and being in love with someone and sharing with somebody.

And I just think, you know, communication is obviously really important and often easier said than done because we all bring our own damages to every relationship. And we're all reacting out of our past conditioning and our past traumas and bring them into our relationships but um yeah being aware of that for yourself is is the most important thing and and realizing that you know life all parts of life are impermanent and and relationships are not excluded from that that's all we have time for this week on Millennial Love. Follow Independent Lifestyle on social media to keep up to date with what's coming up on the show.

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