Love Lives - Grace Campbell on why you should date a feminist

Episode Date: April 24, 2020

This week we're taking a break from coronavirus content and returning to regularly scheduled programming.Olivia is joined by comedian and activist Grace Campbell to discuss why it's important to date a feminist and what that means.How do you know if you're dating a feminist? And if you're unsure, how can you educate a partner on equality without coming across as patronising?Grace opens up about how she and her boyfriend support one another and strive to defy stereotypical gender roles.She also reveals why she felt so irked when her father, Alastair Campbell, refers to women as "birds".You can follow everything to do with the show on Instagram at @millennial_love.If you're a new listener please remember to subscribe and leave us a comment, preferably a nice one!Support this show http://supporter.acast.com/millenniallove. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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This week we are going to mix things up a bit and return to one of the episodes we recorded prior to coronavirus taking hold and turning all of our lives upside down uh it's with the wonderful comedian and activist grace campbell who joined me back in january i think to discuss why it's important to date a feminist it's something different and hopefully a bit more uplifting than all of the coronavirus conversations we have all been inundated with. Enjoy the show. Hello, Grace. Hello. Right, today, we're going to get straight to the point So, why do you think it is important to date a feminist?

Are you asking me, like, as in dating me, who is a feminist? Or are you saying why is it important for me to date a man, I'm heterosexual, who is a feminist? Let's start with the latter. Why is it important to you to date a feminist? Less arguments. It would make my life more streamlined. I think I don't really have many people in my life who don't class themselves as a feminist.

I mean, my boyfriend is definitely a feminist. He's quite like, he likes to have the joke that he's not like rar me up but he is a real feminist in his like beliefs and his actions he really like is one so I just don't feel I meet many people who like aren't do you know what I mean have you ever dated any guys who you knew from quite early on were not feminists or just didn't really have the same outlook on life as you I've dated misogynists how did you know they were misogynists what did they do that were clear red flags well like I think so for example there was someone that I dated for a while who was very

honest about him being really unattracted by my like ambition really and like he just said he found it quite like vulgar how much I would speak about like what I want to do and where I want to get to um that didn't last, obviously. I find it so bizarre. That's quite a good example. Yeah, because men are insecure. People are insecure. Men are insecure.

I mean, you see people's insecurities sort of highlighted when you're dating them or in a relationship with them. And I think I bring out quite a lot of insecurities in some in a particular type of men because I at my confidence and ambition is unwavering like I do have doubts for sure and I have multiple issues and flaws but my confidence and ambition in the fact that I know I'm going to get to where I want to get to eventually it is unwavering um and I think that has you know that brings out I guess men's insecurities about themselves what's interesting about that example you just gave though is that he actually told you that and said that he found it quite threatening how early on did he let you know um that was quite far in it wasn't like that wasn't like the beginning it was something that

went on for too long but it yeah it was quite far in when he said that and I remember like I really liked him that's the thing and it was a quite like complicated relationship and actually I mean my relationship now is complicated all relationships are complicated but um my boyfriend now is way less kind of insecure than a lot of the people that I've been with in the past and I do think um obviously men have insecurities men have vulnerabilities um they should embrace them for sure I'm not sure they quite a lot of them quite know how to deal with those insecurities without taking it out on someone else um so what was your question I guess my question was that it's it's funny that he he actually was aware of that and was was able to admit that this was something that he felt

threatened by because even though that I'm you know I'm not condoning his stance that level of self-awareness I think is quite rare actually particularly with particularly with the kind of man who holds those views that is true I suspect that most men who feel threatened by women being ambitious or successful probably wouldn't want to admit that that is true themselves let alone to the person they're with and I think what they do is then just like self-sabotage um and the thing is is like I I'm writing this short book at the moment while I'm trying to write this short book at the moment and it's about men and it's called the future of men and like I'm I've been thinking back about like because I am quite like

I'm one of those people who, if you ask me what my favorite meal was, I would say the last meal I had. Like I'm so easily pleased and I have quite a short, if you ask me what my favorite film was, it's the last good film I saw because like my memory just doesn't go like so far back that I, so, you know, when something ends with a person,

unless, you know, it was really kind of like raw and didn't end well, I do just put it like I forget about it basically and so I've been trying I've been sort of going back and thinking about some of my experiences with men to write this book and I do think that I was probably quite like when I was younger I think I'm 25 now I think I started properly dating people when I was like 19 like I was having sex before then but I wasn't like having anything sort of meaningful and I think I was quite vulnerable I think there was a type of man who sort of saw my like confidence and like borderline arrogance in myself but could also see how vulnerable I was to, I just wanted people to love me and be nice to me.

And so I think I probably, there were things that happened that I should have called out and I didn't when I was younger. That's an example. When that guy said that, I didn't see that as the worst thing in the world. The actual line I said was, I didn't see that as, like, the worst thing in the world. The actual line I said was, I want to win a BAFTA by the age of 30.

And this was when we were, like, 19. And I was like, I want to. I mean, it doesn't really look like it's going to be likely, but we'll see. I've got five years. I've got five years. But that was the line. And I saw him just get really sort of, like, turned off by it.

And then it wasn't right then that he said it, it was retrospectively he said it, that it like really jarred him that I just had this like really clear sense of like purpose. But I didn't kick up a massive fight about that and looking back I'm like obviously if that happened now I would like maybe turn to violence. Are there any other things that you noticed when you were younger that men

would say to you that you wouldn't pick up on and would only pick up on now because I know that I have definitely only become aware of certain things that were not okay back then but I did just brush it under and it you know something simple as like a word or rather than, or an opinion? I'm not sure. I mean, actually, around the feminism thing, like, I've always been, like, a feminist since I was probably, like, 12 years old. Since I found out what it was, I was like, yeah, like, this is something I just want to get on board with.

Like, I have two brothers and, you know, I could see that they were going to, like, be treated differently than me in life. And so when it was, was like when I was at school and like when I was at sixth form which was when the school mix when we had boys definitely there was this sense that people would like take the piss out of me because I was such like outspoken feminist and actually when you start to date people at that age I used I remember once I got with this guy who was like a friend from school and he saw my pubes and I was waxed and he was like what like I thought you were gonna have the most hairy vagina oh my god which I thought was like hilarious because like that

sort of their idea that was their idea at that age it's so funny you know when I was doing research for this episode I was looking at things about dating feminists and I found an article on I think it was Guardian Soulmates website from like 2015 which was like how to deal when you're dating a feminist stop I kid you not and it was like don't uh challenge her views too much um don't don't offer to pay for the full meal all these really archaic things and it's just it blows my mind it's like it's also really othering I think yes it is a feminist is like a strange exotic animal that you need to learn how to tame no I know and actually like that's the thing that i think

you see in in a particular type of man i don't like to generalize people ever but there is a particular type of man who will literally like if i'm at a pub and i'm getting a bit riled up about say someone calling referring to me as a bird or like saying something that's like pissed me off and then their sort of response is to be like oh typical feminist always just getting riled up for nothing because their intention is to like make you more angry and I've gotten in so many situations not really in dating because like if I was on a date with someone who was like that I would literally get up and leave now I mean maybe those things happen but I also think when I was younger we didn't

really know that like boys didn't really know that much apart from that they were going to have hairy vaginas um but they like people like to rile you up basically especially like this kind of man laddy but like not all laddy people but like there's a particular type of sort of laddy man I'm thinking of one person in particular right now who loves to really grind my gears and I've had to learn to like really stay calm in those situations because otherwise I just lose my temper and then I've kind of like lost. It's funny you mentioned the bird thing

because didn't you get into an on-air argument with your dad about this exact issue? What was it that you called him out on? He still does it. He still does it. What is it that he does? He calls women birds. Right, okay.

He still does it. I mean, I heard him do it the other day. It's really interesting. My dad has like two lives. He's got his London life and then he's got his up north football life. And I feel like when he's up there, that's the kind of stuff that sort of goes

when it comes to him. And then when he's at home and he says that, me and my mum are like, excuse me, like, who do you think you are? Let's listen. I think we can listen to the clip. For a man to be a feminist, it's a lot more than just saying, well, it's good that they're saying they're a feminist because that means that they believe in equality. But I think to truly be a feminist, they need to really unpick things.

So I've thought of some examples with you, which I'm going to talk about. Firstly, you still call women birds, which I think you don't even think about the impact that that has. When do I do that? You do it when you're around men. When do I do that? You do it when you're around men. You do it when you're around men, I've observed. Okay, do I? Really? I think that, that's something, if you truly want to be a feminist, women aren't birds, birds are birds, birds can fly,

women can't fly. And I like birds. Exactly. Real birds. You call women women, you don't call them birds. Okay, I don't remember calling them birds, but I'll promise not to do that again. Okay. So listening back to that, what prompted you to call him out

on it so brilliantly, may I say. But at that point, and do you think you feel that confident calling out men you've been in dating situations with who have used that language? Or is it easier to call him up because he's your dad? I mean, and also it's quite funny. And it was so good for my profile. It really was. So much PR. It really was so much pr it really was great um i definitely think i would call um like men that i was dating out on those things um

i mean what that actually happened like so randomly me and my mum were on holiday like just the two of us and my dad was like doing all of this press and I was like okay I'm gonna call in and then I called in I was like look to the producers I was like it's me um push me up the fucking queue and they were like great and then I just did I didn't put up I didn't think about what I was gonna say I literally just said it and then there was this there's this point because it was a film because it's And then there was this point, because it was a film, because it was LBC, there's this point where you can see my dad start to realise that I've really won here. And he's like, all right, stop nagging me now. And then it's like, well, you've lost by saying that I was nagging you.

But I think on those things, like if my boyfriend used the word birds in front of me, I would lose my mind. So would I. So would I. I think it's just, it's so old fashioned. And also it's so, it's dehumanizing. I know it's not meant like that,

but when you really break it down, it's, yeah, it's quite an offensive way to refer to women. And I think the thing is, is that like, I think that, so in terms of like that kind of language, I'm not trying to say that like nobody is allowed to say the word birds. Like if that's in your vernacular and you want to say that, fine. Do not refer to me or my mom or like any woman I love as a bird because like we're not birds. Then that's kind of as far as like my campaign on that would ever go.

Do you know what I mean? Because you can't change like everyone's opinion if they've been using a word like that it's obviously sort of not progressive but it doesn't like really harm people um in the way that like other language that people are still using really does so yeah it's a funny one isn't it because also i can't think of an equivalent for men for referring to men because i guess there's the term lads but i don't really think that carries the same connotations or blokes yeah because they're not that's not an animal well exactly it's like why what animal is there that you refer to men as cock that is an animal yeah but also it has another meaning dogs dogs beasts um so um let's talk back about the point of dating a feminist so how do you think you said earlier that your boyfriend how long have you been with

him for for like a year and a half a year and a half okay so you say that he is definitely a very ardent feminist how i wouldn't say he's ardent I would say he's like he's a practicing feminist a practicing feminist he's not like a theoretical one so how does that how does that manifest in terms of your relationship like he does all he does all of the cooking even though I have gotten good at cooking um he he's like the way more practical person in our relationship which is exactly what my mum is to my dad. And actually like I'm way more practical than my dad, but like I've gotten much better at cooking.

But when I first met my boyfriend, I mean like I didn't cook ever. I think actually when I met him, I hadn't cooked a meal for like two years previous to that. What did you eat? Just like hummus, cucumber, crisps, and then like prep. All very good foods. Yeah yeah it wasn't like I was unhealthy I was just like spending so much money like um doing my taxes is always like what are you thinking so anyway I started cooking now but so on that sense he very much thinks that women

are superior to men like he's super super super thinks that because like he i always say this about men like good men they are in male spaces like more than your eye would ever be so they really see like what men are like behind closed doors without women watching them and he's like men are i'm not gonna swear because i don't know if i can i think we've already sworn go for it men are basically men are mainly twats and he's seen that and he's like women are so much more kind of like intelligent empathetic like pragmatic and he's got like an amazing female role model in his mum so I think that makes a big difference actually I can tell that from the men I've dated the ones who like I'd say my boyfriend now his mums are really like strong yeah independent like empowered women and I think

actually growing up with a woman like that really really has a big impact on the guy and actually it's I completely agree and actually um the other thing is my boyfriend has so many female friends and I always think so I have so many male friends, like good men friends, do you know what I mean? Like ones who aren't dicks. And I like when people know that you can just be friends with a woman. Like not everything has to be sexual,

not everything has to be leading something. Like the boys' school I went to school next door to because I went to a girls' school and the boys' school next door, those boys there were taught to think that girls aren't friends like you only have a girl friend if you're banging her basically um and so I like that he's just got like a really good um sort of like attitude towards women and and all of that stuff and he wants me to be like the best person in the world and is happy to like be a stay-at-home dad and do whatever so that's great

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Holla differently this year with DoorDash. Don't want to holla do the most? Holla don't. More festive, less frantic. Get deals for every occasion with DoorDash. To people who are maybe not as lucky and are definitely hold their own feminist views and you know feel very empowered by them and feel very strong-minded about them and don't you know want to change anything about themselves for the person they're with whether it's male or female but let's be honest probably more male 100 um so if that person if that person who they're with is not a feminist what advice would you have do

you think because the reason why I'm asking this is because I know I've felt this with just friends of mine when male friends will say something and I'm a bit like oh it's not really okay and because they're your friend you care about them and you don't want them walking around perpetuating these harmful views and you kind of feel like compelled to change it how do you do that without coming across as really patronizing well I think that's that's two things like if you're in a relationship with someone like that my frank answer would be like you shouldn't be with that person I spent a lot of time single because I was like I'm not gonna be with someone who I think I have to compromise my views around. That was just like, it was such a huge thing for me. Like my kind of feminist identity is so strong that I did.

And I know what can happen when you get in a relationship with someone and you kind of can risk forgetting about those elements of yourself and like letting them go a bit. And so I was really protective of that and like didn't ever want to be with someone unless I felt that like all of those things were really safe with them so I think if you don't feel like that person is ever going to understand like what sort of you really care about when it comes to women's issues and like feminism I'm not sure that will always be a problem for you unless you think that they want to evolve and want to learn and change but and in that case so then in your case of like with your friends I would say there is a way that you and I've had to learn this because I I don't like the fact that we have to like package things nicely because some of this stuff isn't fun like some of the issues that like women not least like

not people like privileged people like me but like a lot of women have to go through is not fun and it's not light-hearted but sometimes treat men a bit like children and like sort of talk to them you know simplify these things um without it sound I hate saying no I'm not going to say that because I hate making I hate the fact that we have to kind of like minimize our emotions when it comes to this stuff but for fear of a man being like oh now you're just like getting upset or you know it's sort of seen as a sign of weakness to them um and it's difficult because I think sometimes because say you know maybe the right answer is if you are with a man who is

saying things that are anti-feminist the right answer is to not be with that man but maybe if it's the first time they've said something and you know it's only like the first offence you know your first instinct might be to just try and address it and try and solve it I had to do this panel recently

and on the panel it was about free speech and comedy and on the panel there was this guy who was so awful he's a comedian and he was basically saying that like comedians should be able to talk about whatever they want like male comedians should be able to talk about like women getting raped if they want and like fgm and i just like lost it and i and i just lost it i was like how dare you like i've gigged before where like a man has gone on stage made a like really just not funny joke about rape and then i have to go on and like be funny and i'm like well i just feel like my whole kind of like that really like feminist identity that i want to protect has just been stripped of me and now i have to like make the same people who just laughed at his joke laugh it's cruel it's so we shouldn't be forced to put through that

am I saying that right no we shouldn't be forced to be put through that yeah to trying to defend trying to basically explain what rape is it's like it's like this whole race thing that's going on at the moment yeah why are people constantly asking black people to give them examples of racism? Of course racism exists. I know, it's infuriating. I think actually what you said earlier about the news is a really good example of when I think these clashes will happen in relationships. When those different views do kind of become apparent. So like with a big rape case, with Me Too, like all of these things can really give rise to you know what you really

think yeah and sometimes you know the person you're with might actually be a completely different person to who you thought they were yeah and you just they they'd never have an opportunity to show you that until there is this big story in the news I completely agree and like people will eventually show you their true colors like sometimes it takes a while but so I do I do like I really think that if you're a feminist and if you really care about all of this stuff don't be with a twat who's like gonna patronize you and belittle your beliefs because it's that thing of like you have to kind of protect it I think because otherwise it can get really really draining when you're constantly fighting off these people. So we're going to move on to our lessons in love segment.

So this is the part of the podcast where I ask each guest to share something they've learned from their previous relationships. So, Grace, I feel like your lesson is something everyone would have done at some point in their relationship history. So do you want to explain what it is okay so my lesson which I definitely learned more than once and I wish I'd just taken it in the first time because it would have saved me a lot of time and mental space but is don't go for unavailable people okay they are not available it's like you see if you're like trying to go into a shop say to like buy some cigarettes or something and the shop is shut okay it is shut it's not open are you gonna stand outside the shop and wait till six in the morning till that shop opens again no okay

if someone's doors are shut don't stay don't wait for them to open that's what i did i've done that i spent so like so much time doing that waiting for people to change what it was they wanted and it's firstly like can diminish your self-esteem because you kind of feel like you're nearly there and then you're not and like the doors shut again but also it's just not worth it I feel like people like that have to get to a place and they're nowhere near that place yet where they can like just treat people with respect my big thing I'm ranting now but my big thing is if you don't want to be with someone just tell them okay like it's not the funnest thing in the world I've had to say it to people before and people have said it to me I'd much rather that than people being like oh I don't know like you know

I'm just like confused I've just got so much stuff going on like just you know when you when you've been with these people in the past is it i'm guessing they weren't relationships they were sort of people you were just dating what no one of them yeah they were just people i was dating and yeah was it that they went on far too long would they just would they just be really unreliable would they kind of really unpredictable like really unreliable but also it's that thing that i have this thing about um there's a particular type of boy who are like they're really kind of like they want you to give them a lot of emotional support and so it always is like amazing because I'm like oh my god they're so in tune with their emotions and they're really like deep and profound and actually they just want you to be their therapist and they don't

really want to be with you they just want you to be their therapist and they won't give it back yeah exactly they like drain all of your kind of like emotional resource so you then have and they don't really want to be with you. They just want you to be their therapist. And they won't give it back as well. Yeah, exactly. They like drain all of your kind of like emotional resource so you then have none for yourself and then they just fuck off. It's very selfish behavior. Very selfish behavior. But it happens all the time.

Do you think that's the definition of a fuckboy? Because I know the term fuckboy is different things. Oh, I think there are so many definitions of fuckboys. I think that's more like a fake soft boy is what I would say. Like a fake, you know, like the soft boy, like, I think that's more people who kind of use that to, like, get girls. I think fuckboys can exist in many forms. Yeah.

Beware of the fuckboys, listeners. That's sadly all we've got time for today. Thank you so much for coming in, Grey. That's it for today. thank you so much for coming in grey that's it for today thank you so much for listening if you are a new listener you can subscribe to us on apple podcasts or a cast or wherever you get your podcasts please leave us a rating and review as well because it helps other people find us you can also follow everything to do with the podcast on instagram just follow us at millennial underscore love. See you next week. I'm Jessie Cruikshank, and on my podcast, Phone a Friend, I break down the biggest stories in pop culture. But when I have questions, I get to phone a friend. I phone my old friend, Dan Levy.

You will not die hosting the Hills after show. I get thirsty for the hot wiggle. I didn't even know what thirsty meant until there was all these headlines. And I get schooled by a tween. Facebook is like a node. That's what my grandma's on. Thank God Phone a Friend with Jessie Cruokshank is not available on Facebook. It's out now wherever you get your podcasts. Acast helps creators launch, grow, and monetize their podcasts everywhere.

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