Love Lives - How to have feminist sex, with Gina Martin and Flo Perry

Episode Date: November 15, 2019

This week, Olivia is joined by activist Gina Martin and writer Flo Perry to discuss feminist sex.What is feminist sex? And how does it differ from, well, regular sex? Olivia, Gina and Flo also discuss the importance of communication in the bedroom, why straight men don’t talk about sex in the same way as other people, and how our parents help to shape our love lives in unexpected ways.Support this show http://supporter.acast.com/millenniallove. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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Visit Peloton at onepeloton.ca. Hello and welcome to Millennial Love, a podcast from The Independent focusing on everything to do with sexuality, relationships, identity, and more. We touch on a wide variety of topics, ranging from how to have feminist sex to how dating has changed in the post-MeToo era. I'm your host Olivia Petter and today on the programme I'm joined by activist and writer Gina Martin and illustrator Flo Perry to discuss how to have feminist sex. Enjoy the show! The idea of feminist sex, it confuses me, actually, just the words together, because I think I understand the concept. But when you hear the words feminist sex, you think, what the hell is that? So could you please explain, Flo? I understand why you're confused, because I think most people, feminism isn't very sexy.

It's not something that people fantasize about. Like, ooh, equality. Yeah, I can't wait to, like, have all my rights and then talk about them for a long time and then have sex. I'm quite turned on, you just saying that. Some people might be turned on by that. Most people are like, it's like an unequal power dynamic during sex,

which isn't very feminist. But I think it can be because I think for me, feminist sex is just about knowing what you want and being able to communicate that and not having the sex you think you ought to be having to please your partner necessarily, but just the sex that you want to be having. And not the sex that we see in movies and on tv which is just meant to magically happen and be amazing and beautiful the first time around but sex that you can work on with communication and is like any other part of the relationship that evolves over time and is a complex beautiful project between two or more people and do you think that not enough of us are having feminist sex yeah I think that like for a lot of people getting the boyfriend getting the girlfriend like getting the relationship that is the goal and we're so scared of being single

that once you have the boyfriend or the girlfriend, you don't think about, is this the sex I want to be having? And you don't prioritise your own pleasure and satisfaction. I think a lot of, especially women, do not do that. When you think about the idea of feminist sex, Gina, is communication the main thing that comes to mind? I can't actually think of anything else more important than sex.

Like, communication is huge. It's huge in any relationship, but I feel like sex is like a microcosm of all of the power dynamic of the dynamic of your relationship just in the bedroom, you know? So it almost, if your relationship isn't communicative and if it's not equal in a a good way in the way it should be then in the bedroom it's going to be the same and I feel like what you're talking about flow is really great because like especially with women there's so much that comes before your pleasure

like your safety comes before your pleasure like that shouldn't come before your pleasure you know there's so many different things that we're worried about and there's also some there's such a low bar for what we expect that we deserve in the bedroom as well I think communication is just huge and that's been drilled into me by my parents as well and has been all the way through my relationships um yeah it's got to be it's sex and communication are mutually exclusive do you think when communication is poor in a relationship a sexual relationship it leads to us women particular obviously sort of just accepting things and brushing things off that are really not acceptable at all I think probably yeah I think

it's very difficult as well for me to give an opinion because I had two relationships my whole life I've had sex with two men my whole life I'm also straight very heteronormative experience but my experience of the two I've had which were both very long-term both very different was that that the first relationship there wasn't much communication and I kind of brushed off stuff I shouldn't have brushed off and tried to exist in compare in relation to the guy instead of existing as my own person I was this person's girlfriend and I was trying to be this person's girlfriend and trying to be what they would expect of me instead of just talking about how I wanted to feel um I'm the relationship I'm in now which has been seven years is the opposite it's incredibly healthy and communication is pretty

much the linchpin for the whole relationship um so I'm because of that like you say I don't brush stuff off and I don't just get on with stuff and everything is laid out you know and that's so much of a happier healthier space to be be in, I think. Do you have a similar experience, Flo, in your relationship history? No. I've been a right slag. Yay! Good! Yeah, I've slept with loads of people, both men and women,

and I've had more than two relationships. And every single one has been different. I mean, a lot of the men's sex has been exceptionally similar. Yes, I mean, I'm not surprised by that at all. But a lot of the women's sex has been run of the mill. It's going to be equal opportunities. Lots of people are bad in bed. That does not surprise me.

Me included, probably, for some of those lucky people that I've encountered. What was the question? I guess my question was, have you experienced difficulty communicating what you want from sex with previous partners? Yeah, I mean, when I was 17, I was awful at it. I couldn't talk about anything. Surely all of us were, like everyone in the world surely was too, you know? Yeah, oh my God, when I was a teenager, I had a long-time girlfriend in sixth form, and we didn't talk about sex at all it's just something that kind of happened and like like anything I could get I was like great yeah

this is great yeah exactly um and now like in my in my current relationship like I feel weird about talking about my current relationship because like they're out there but like yeah they can hear you no no yeah talk to me not that all the other ones are dead but like oh my god can you imagine let's assume

that they'll listen yeah or we talk about sex yeah it's great it's so important it's so funny and also like

I think I think there's this weird assumption actually that as you get older people particularly men don't talk about sex with one another as much as women do they do talk about sex that as you get older, people, particularly men,

don't talk about sex with one another as much as women do. They do talk about sex, but I don't think in an honest way. No. That's the difference. And this is all sweeping generalizations, but my experience with straight cis guys that I know, there is a conversation about sex.

There's a bravado conversation. There's like a boasting conversation or like a, yeah, I had sex with this girl or did this or whatever. But there isn't a, I'm kind of worried because my something to do with my genitals

or do you do this or like is that weird if this happens or there doesn't seem to be like an open raw conversation more of like a how's sex with you

yeah great cool pat on the back you know what I mean that's what I've experienced growing up but I don't know if that's the same for everyone yeah I would say

I'm the same the definitely the straight cisgendered men who I know they don't talk about sex in the same open and honest way that me and my female friends do but even even me and my female friends you know it's not particularly when you're in a relationship you don't really have those same conversations it's almost like the longer you've been in a relationship the more private your sex life becomes yeah I really noticed that but I

think that that can also be a bit problematic because you obviously still have things you want to talk about and you want to share yeah and you know if you don't talk about them then we can't address them and i think it's like obviously you want some things between you and your partners to stay private but at the same time i think you should be able to be like look i've like i'm just gonna have to talk about this with my best friend um and like your partner should be cool with that and like the fact that you have someone else you can share that with because you have no one to share something with then you don't know what's normal you need someone to like yeah have a bouncing board of like yeah that sounds great and if they're like hopefully that's a good best friend and like you don't want like a judgmental

best friend who's gonna be like oh my god you're a freak why you doing that no yeah but like i think that is really important to have to keep talking about sex with your friends as well as your partner so that we all just like because it also develops right like if you're together for 15 years like your sex life is going to change because you change people so like the fact that things are developing and then you're not talking about it because you're worried about say this person doesn't or what would what would my partner want me to talk about or not but like like you say then have that conversation with your partner and if you can't have that conversation with your partner then maybe that's something to think about you know because it's still your body and it's still your pleasure even though you've been having sex the

same person for however long you know so you should still yeah you're totally right you should still be able to have those conversations do you think um gina given the work you've done in terms of upskirting do you think having more conversations combining feminism and sex and talking about female sexuality in this way can help combat some of these incidents of sexual harassment like upskirting yes i think having conversations around feminism and gender equality in general is critical. Very, very young. We should be doing that very, very young. A friend of mine does that with young boys in schools at like between 10, I think it is, and 18. And so by the time they're 15, 16, they've kind of opted out of all the learnings and stereotypical kind of damaging learnings they'd already learned.

So having those conversations around gender equality, yes. I think particularly around gender, though, like about not just binary gender as well. I have really honest discussions around gender with young people. And I think, yeah, I think having honest, raw discussions about sex as well. Like I grew up in a family who talked to me about stuff way earlier than any of my friends did. Like when I came in my period, my dad and my mum threw a party. They were so excited for me.

Everything was a really positive experience experience like a really open conversation and we're having conversations only in a very heteronormative way anyway about sex with kids who are 16 and they've already been having sex or thinking about it or learning about it anyway off the internet so they already have all these preconceived ideas that aren't good for them to have we need to be having those conversations way earlier and i think there's a worry that you can't have conversations about consent or sex with young kids because of the sexual nature of them you can have a conversation with it you can you can teach a two-year-old consent by well you know when they meet a family friend going can I give you a hug no okay fine high five that's a consent conversation in in the context of their age like we need to learn to

have these conversations earlier so I think think, yeah, gender, feminism and sex, all those conversations need to be happening a lot earlier and that can lead to probably way more healthy and fulfilling sex lives. I imagine whoever you are and whoever you love, like, that's what we need to be aiming for, I think. For me, my sex life has always been with men and women. I actually came out as gay at 15

and then like went backwards, well not backwards, in a new direction to bisexuality when I was 18. So the reverse come out which is a very unique experience. The reverse come out? That's what I call it. I like that. I thought I was the only person who ever did it and then it was recently on the TV show The Bisexual on Channel 4

loads of people have done it but no one talks about it so that's why you're like oh shit I'm the only person so yeah talking about sex isn't really a gendered thing for me no because I've had lots of sex with

people of different genders. But growing up, did you find that a lot of the narratives around sex that you were hearing from the media and everything else were heteronormative? Even though you were like, that's totally normal for me to talk about sex because it's a human experience, it's my life. Did you feel like those conversations weren't reflected or were you surrounded by them because of the people you're around? So I'm very lucky.

I grew up in lovely, liberal elite North London. And I've got lovely parents. And I remember very early on they're always like when you grew up um and when you get um a wife or a husband you know that was always like when you get a boyfriend or a girlfriend when I came out they were still like what but like you know in like a much less way than most people's parents I imagine yeah um but it's like I think yeah I never I was very lucky I think that one of the main things that I think why I always was quite cool with my own sexuality and never had like huge I say that I like did lots of crying when I was 15 but I think that's just a broad yeah broad experience rather than like a gay experience um was that in my school I went to an all-girls school which was actually great and like four years above me there was like a really hot butch lesbian in

my school and there were like loads of rumors about her everyone fancied her she was like there were like rumors went around that was I hope she's listening. Should I say her name? I don't know. I've talked to her on Facebook recently. Oh my God, I don't know who she is. Oh my God, there you are. And like seeing that she had a good experience and that that was cool for her and people respected her. According to the rumours, she got laid a lot.

Like kind of made it all fine. That's so good. So great. And I think having those personal role models, even though she never really knew she was my role model. Though once she called me mini-me. Oh my God, yes. Did you die? You must have been like, yes!

When I was like 12 and she was like 16 because we had the same shoes. And I was like... I love you. An immediate bonding experience when you have the same shoes for someone. Huge. Yeah.

They were comic strip covered converse. Oh, glorious. When you talked about actually having conversations with your parents i think that's really interesting do you think having an open dialogue with your parents about sex as a teenager really helps you become quite comfortable with your sexuality as you as you grow older or do you think sometimes it can push you into the other direction and kind of make you feel a bit more embarrassed and you'll be like, oh, no, I don't want to talk about sex

because that's something that my weird mom does all the time. That's a good question. Yeah. I think it's how it's done though, isn't it? Because like if you sit your kids down and you're like, we're talking about sex, right? Sex is a thing, you need to know about it. This is what it's like.

I know this isn't comfortable, but blah, blah, blah. You're like, oh, shit, too much information. No, this sounds like a scary thing. But if it's done in a way that is just naturally in conversation as those conversations arise, in a way that doesn't pick it out as this kind of odd thing that has to be done that we have to talk to you about

because that's our job, but we don't want to, you know. If it's natural and it's easy to talk about. And also, I always find humor's huge. My mom and dad, they laugh about it and be like, I know it's weird, but that's how you're here, you know. You's easy to talk about. And also, I always find humor's huge. Like, my mom and dad, like, they laugh about it and be like, I know it's weird, but that's how you're here, you know? You gotta laugh about it. That makes you normalize something that is actually a really positive thing and should be a positive thing.

Sex should be such a positive thing in your life. It should be this thing that, you know, it's about love and it's about, you know, fun. And it's about all the, really, joy and pleasure. And, like, so why is why is it like packaged up this negative thing it should be this positive part of your life so if that conversation is normalized and and it's funny and it's fun and it's you know not stressful then I guess well for me it just made me think okay this is just part of what happens you grow up and like you have sex with people that you find attractive or that you want to have fun with or that you fall in love with

and it sounds like a fun part of life. It didn't sound like this weird, scary thing that I had to get my head around because I didn't frame it that way. So for me, it was really positive to have those conversations. I think that's really important that, like, to have positive conversations about sex. I think a lot of women, the first time they learn about, like, the first conversations they have around sex are, don't get pregnant, don't get an STI, you will die. Yes. Like that scene in Mean Girls. Don have around sex are don't get pregnant don't get an sti you will die yes like that scene in mean girls don't get raped don't get pregnant

exactly like that everyone's head when that should be like the secondary thoughts hopefully and that sex should be primarily a fun positive thing in most people's lives and also not just talking about it in this in the frame of love as well like when you love someone which is true but like when you love someone so much you know have sex and you're in a partnership or whatever like there should also be a narrative about it being fun you know like instead of it just being about love and being like the very obvious cookie cutter idea of what we have in a book about what sex is like and yeah it's such a good thing it's such a positive speaking of which actually you mentioned this uh you talk about one night stands in the book flow and i think it's so bizarre how even today in 2019 like you

know for men having a one night stand it makes them a lad it makes them you know a hero a casanova whatever whereas there's this strange culture of shame surrounding it for women that oppresses sexually liberated women and that i think really comes to the fore when we talk about one-night stands. Why do you think that's still a problem? I don't know. Because who are all the men having their one-night stands with? Usually women. I mean, yeah, I have no idea.

And, like, it blows my mind. In Love Island, they always do that bit where it's like, how many people have you slept with? They, like, find a way to bring it up. And all the men are usually, like, 87 bit where it's like, how many people have you slept with? They find a way to bring it up. And all the men are usually like, 87. And everyone's like, okay. And the women are like, 23. And everyone's like, ooh!

Yeah, literally. Yeah, apart from when I think it was last year when it was Megan Barton Hanson who said she'd slept with over 100 men or something. No, it was 37. I remember extremely clearly. God, that's so weird that I've remembered it like that because I remember the outrage. Wow, internal mis so weird that I've remembered it like that because I remember the outrage.

Wow, internal misogyny. I remember the outrage to that and I remember people really chastising her for that and being like, what the hell? So that's so weird how in my brain it's a lot more. I remember exactly 37 because maybe it was a common number with someone in the room. Yay!

That is so good. It's weird though, isn't it? Like the narrative around it is mad. But that's because the narrative is controlled by guys, pretty much. Like the narrative is being pushed by guys. I honestly cannot tell you why it's still a thing when so many things, other things, aren't still a thing. And obviously it's not still a thing with like me and my friends.

So I find it hard to be like... Actually, it wasn't in the first draft of the book I wrote. And then my editor was like, why haven't you mentioned like players? Like the player dynamic is a thing. And I was like, oh yeah. And then you do some reading and you watch La Valette and you realize, oh my God, it's still a fucking thing.

Like this is still coming up. The mainstream narrative is still skewed that way. I don't know why. Get over it, guys. The gendered idea of fuckboys. There's no fuck girls. that's not a thing fuck boys is like the term to use for men who are sleeping around and messing women around and it's like what's the term for women who want to do that i mean i'm not saying i'm not saying i condone the behavior in either either sense but like it shouldn't just

be a masculine thing speaking of which i wanted to talk about me too because you do actually also touch on this in the book a bit you have have an illustration where there is a man saying the classic line of, I just think it's a witch hunt out there for men today, which is something that you hear time and time again since the Me Too movement emerged. And it makes my blood boil and I'm sure it makes your blood boil as well. What do you say to men who say things like that to you, Flo? I would just say literally talk to any of your female friends because it's like if you've had like a lot of close female friendships or even just any, or you experience yourself, you know how common these things are.

Like I have friends friends everyone knows someone who has had these horrible horrible things happen to them yeah or it or it's themselves and or you know everyone knows many people it's just so common and I think actually also the idea of you know it being a witch hunt out there for men it conflates these ideas of flirting and harassment which is so bizarre because it's like surely there is a clear-cut difference between what constitutes flirting and what constitutes harassment is that something that you have you know you've had conversations with people about gina have you experienced that too much i can't deal with like that's my biggest thing i just saw a camp a campaign a print campaign from um i think it was yorkshire council somewhere based on the upscaling campaign it was like a Like, that's my biggest thing. I just saw a campaign, a print campaign from,

I think it was the Yorkshire Council or somewhere, based on the upskirting campaign. It was like, it said, flirting, then it had a purple line, and then it said, upskirting, and it said, know where the line is. Like, there's a line, and you're flirting, and, oh, I accidentally just stepped over the line, and now I'm abusing someone. The idea of abuse being a compliment is still such a fucking narrative,

and I don't understand why. It's not the same thing. Being, like, sexualizing yourself and being sexualized by someone else is not the same thing. I don't understand how that's so hard to get into someone's head, our heads. But I do understand that our culture has normalized this kind of damaging rhetoric for so long. You know, I get upset because sometimes I'll say to guys, like, talk to all the women in your life, and they do. culture has normalized this kind of damaging rhetoric for so long they're you know i get upset because sometimes i'll say to guys like talk to all the women in your life and they do

and some of the women will say like yeah no it's fine i find it a compliment when someone like you know beeps at me from a car or shout something at me like or it's funny or whatever because we've also internalized the fact that that's normal and that's our lives um and we just really have to the the witch hunt thing is really interesting as well because it's not that far off from the whole like not all men thing it's this is a witch hunter out here you know yeah it is yes we're hunting men who are abusing women so yeah it is as it should be like that's not a bad thing that we're trying to find out these men that have been doing things to women and trying to deconstruct this culture that has been hurting people for so long. That's not a bad thing. But I think as soon as you say we have a massive problem in society, the community with who those people belong to get very defensive.

It's exactly the same with race and white people. Like, we just can't talk about it because we feel like immediately we're part of the problem. And, like, we have to be able to somehow convince guys to put their ego aside and go, yeah, this probably is a big problem and there probably are parts of my behaviour that I've been there as well. Yes, I might not have raped someone,

but I've probably made those jokes. I've probably furthered that narrative in some way. And I don't really know how we do that apart from have really, really honest conversations and get the guys who really understand that and can see that in our lives to go and further that work as well. I just hate the idea that every system of oppression, the burden falls on the people who are oppressed to deconstruct it as well as deal with it.

I just don't think that's right and I don't understand that. So it's really good guys as well that can do this work too, I think. ACAST powers the world's best podcasts. Here's a show that we recommend. I'm Jessie Kirkshank, and on my podcast, Phone a Friend, I break down the biggest stories in pop culture. But when I have questions, I get to phone a friend. I phone my old friend, Dan Levy. You will not die hosting the Hills after show. I get thirsty for the hot wiggle. I didn't even know a thirsty man until there was all these headlines.

And I get schooled by a tween. Facebook is like a no. That's what my grandma's on. Thank God Phone a Friend with Jesse Crookshank is not available on Facebook. It's out now wherever you get your podcasts. Acast helps creators launch, grow, and monetize their podcasts everywhere. Acast.com I guess to finish off,

I guess to finish off, would you mind, Flo, sharing your one tip for women and men, everyone, to have more feminist sex? One tip to have more feminist sex? I would just say communicate, but also prioritize your own pleasure and what you want and find out what you I think men are pretty good at this on the whole yeah there's more listen really but I think women like really dissect your own fantasies spend some time in them like

have a wank and like think about what you are wanking about like what how that translates into what you want in bed and then ask for it. And, like, don't be scared of that. Which is really, really scary doing that because that's, like, your intimate private thoughts that you haven't even really fully consciously put into the outside.

But then when you do, hopefully it will feel amazing. And then when you're having the sex where you've done that and you're both like fulfilling each other's fantasies then i think maybe that's the point of life yeah is that the meaning of life maybe that is the meaning of life what a big bullshit filter as well because if you say it and they don't get it then you're like okay bye you know what i mean like if you like i want

this and they're like well and get really defensive it's a great filter i'm not sure about that because i think like i think if you say i want this and they're like oh i'm not sure about that then i think that's understandable because it depends what you're asking for okay i mean of course in a nice way but if someone's being an arsehole makes you feel bad about asking for your own pleasure then it's really great way of being able to tell okay maybe this person isn't someone i want to spend a lot of time with you know if someone shames you yeah exactly and then yeah that's yeah that is a like red big red flag it's time for our lessons in love segment so this is the part of the podcast where i ask the guests to share something they've learned from their love and relationship experiences so flo you you sent

over a few lessons which i like i like that you've sent over three so I think given what we've been talking about uh would you like to start off by telling us why one of your lessons is bad sex doesn't need to be a big deal yeah as someone who has had a lot of bad sex. Yeah, it doesn't need to be a big deal. Like, I really enjoyed some of the bad sex I've had. And by bad sex, you just mean it was uncomfortable, it was awkward, you had partners that didn't really... I mean, I never saw them again. Like, I barely remember it. Did I cum? No.

But, like, it's not a big deal. And I've learned, I'm really grateful for all of those experiences. But I don't even need to be grateful. It's just like sex doesn't have to be a big deal. And I think that is something I'm quite passionate about. The fact that what does need to be a big deal is respecting yourself, using protection, being safe, using contraception. That should be a big deal.

The actual having of another sex casually. Like, as long as you're being safe, whatever. And if it doesn't like, like, you know, if you decide you never want to see them again or if they decide they don't want to see you again, that doesn't need to be like, oh, man, I wasted one of my precious numbers. It can just be like, oh, well, bye. One of my precious numbers. can just be like oh well bye one of my precious

numbers that's so true precious is such an interesting word though because it does that does feed into like the narrative of being like your precious self and only give yourself to people if you're you know all that bullshit that whole bullshit narrative like there's gonna be bad sex it's gonna be good sex like it's sex like you know sometimes you'll be surprised yeah i've had like transformatively great one night stands. Yes, I feel like that's rare. Well, not transformatively great in the fact that like, in the way that like I had so much fun.

That's the only way I like, I mean, and I still think about them. Yay! Name them. Give them a shout. So sexual compatibility was another one of your lessons. Do you want to explain why you chose that? I think, I just think,

so this is something I think that straight people can really learn from gay people. Because gay people generally, by gay people I mean people having sex with other people of the same genitals, have to talk more about what they're going to do in the bedroom than straight people because there's more options and there's more like different roles you can play um and i think that straight people could really learn about the fact like asking for what they want like gay people do

of being like actually i'm sorry i'm trying to think of how to say this in a like vaguely like safe for work way where i just don't reveal everything about my own story of my life um yeah like i think that yeah talking about more about what you want and like not just assuming that what you want is just what everyone else wants and that's you know like everyone just wants a big man who like wants like to pick up a little lady and throw her on the ground like that sounds shit i don't know some people love that. But like, that's not everyone. Some men want a big woman to sit on their face and tell them they're gross and disgusting. And you know, this is like equally like kind of normal.

Both of these scenarios and gay people know that because it's not like those roles aren't so gendered. I just use like very extreme examples of power dynamics. But like, most sex has a power dynamic those roles aren't so gendered. I just use very extreme examples of power dynamics. Yes, yeah, no, I get it. Most sex has a power dynamic, and it doesn't need to be the way that gender roles are in our society always. That's a great way to put it. Was it? Was that good?

Very eloquent. Well done. Oh, thanks. You have one more. Rejection. Do you want to explain why you chose rejection? Yeah. I recently had a short but powerful stint on great dating apps. Powerful. Love it.

And I did a lot of rejecting and I got a lot of rejection. And I just think I am actually a world-leading expert in rejection now. I got really good. So my friends found this like absolutely mind-blowing that I did this. But I'm really like spreading the message. This is something that you should do. I had a 23 minute date once where like I met up with the guy and we had one drink very quickly, obviously. And I just, I just knew I did not fancy him at all. And I just knew that like, it just was not going to happen. I did not want to snog him. I did not want that awkward moment where we were both like, is this going to happen?

So I just told him, I was like, look, I'm having a great time. I think you're really nice. I think you're a really good looking guy. But for me, like I am not feeling this romantically. So I'll have another drink with you if you want. But like I just thought you should know that. And he was like, oh, thanks. I guess I'm going to go then.

And then it was just fine. But then it's fine because you've put it on the table. And I was glad I didn't have to have another drink, really. Yeah, I'm so glad. I spent so much time trying to, like, my friends all the time come home and they're like, I was away for five hours and I got absolutely one kick because I didn't want to be there.

And then they tried to get me to go home to his house and I was like, I really don't want to. And then he was like, but I spent all night with you. It's like you owe someone something instead of just being like this is how we both feel or how I feel how do you feel

I did it three times in my short period 23 minutes was my record I'm so impressed I think I did it once I stayed for an hour and a half and then I got to I knew within minutes

because you do you know if you're not into someone but I stuck it out for an hour and a half and then eventually I was like I went to the loo and I came back and I said right I've ordered an uber

it's been lovely to meet you see see ya and and just and just left and that was the boldest I'd ever done it but it's it's hard I think actually telling someone like you're great but not for me yeah because we all have people and they will have felt like that on a date at some point yeah like you know we'll have best friends that we think are amazing that we don't want to shag. Yes. So, you know, you don't have to want to shag everyone. No.

That's so true. That's a really good way of putting it. Gina, your lesson, to me, seems to also be very related to what we were talking about. So it's mainly, I think, about autonomy. Is that right? Yeah, mine's more about autonomy in, like, long-term relationships. Like, that's all I think about autonomy is that right? Yeah mine's more about yeah autonomy like long-term relationships like that's all I really know but it's the comparison from my previous

relationship to my current relationship and I remember my previous relationship I said to my mum I realized that this was unhealthy and I said to my mum, I won't say his name because he's a lovely person, just not for me, but I said, I'm getting to the stage where I feel like I am Blank's girlfriend, not I am Gina Martin. Like, I feel like that I am his girlfriend and that's my role. I think that's so common, actually. And that's really odd. And I realised that was weird.

My mum went, that's not good. And then in my relationship with him now, there's just so much I'm just so there's so much autonomy I'm my own person and like he's from Australia we've been together seven years and for the first two years we were like basically long distance Australia to the UK and Greece the UK and like he works away a lot and I have my own job we have completely different lives completely different jobs completely different interests but we love each other we're like best friends at one of those each other that's kind of it like we're just completely independent people so my advice was really for myself as well when I

was younger but was really unless you're your own person unless you feel your independence is supported and your identity develops alongside them not from them it's not healthy love that's how I feel I don't I feel like codependency in a relationship just isn't healthy and and it will so often go south and you will so often lose part of yourself and they may lose part of themselves unless you really honestly feel like you are your own person but you just can't help but be with this person because they're your best friend in the whole world I just don't think it's healthy love was there in your previous relationship do you think there was a power dynamic there either I don't know, what he did for a living or if he was older than you.

Or was there some sort of power dynamic that elicited that kind of codependency? I think there was a gendered power dynamic. There wasn't. We were quite young and we'd known each other since we were four because he was a family friend. So as people, we were fairly like, there wasn't really a power dynamic in terms of like maybe intelligence because he was incredibly academic and I'm really not so I think maybe for me that was like oh he's so bright and I'm so not but I think there was a gender thing where it was like he was the boyfriend

and he had quite a lot of people thought about him in a way that I just didn't and I think there was a jealousy from his side because I was very loud, he was very quiet and so when we'd go to places he'd get kind of not angry but he'd get kind of upset that everyone talked to me or I talked to everyone and he was very quiet, and so when we'd go to places, he'd get kind of, not angry, but he'd get kind of upset that everyone talked to me or I talked to everyone and he was always in my shadow. So there was a personality dynamic that just didn't fit there.

And therefore I closed my mouth more and tried to make myself smaller instead of just being proud of being the person I am. So I definitely think, yeah, there's a gendered power dynamic in the fact that as the guy, maybe he should have been the one at the front and I should have been the one behind as the woman, which I just didn't realise until it ended. And looking back on that now, it's like, God, that was not a healthy relationship.

It's weird, isn't it? It takes retrospective. Yeah, it takes hindsight to actually realise all of that. Which is why these conversations are so important, which is why social media is so important, which is why your illustrations and seeing these things, they make you reframe your own experience in a way that you just wouldn't unless you were looking back.

And so you have to have these conversations to make you go, well, she's saying that happened in her life or they're saying that happened in their life. Actually, that sounds familiar. Maybe that's happening with my relationship. Maybe I haven't thought about this. It's really healthy to do that. It's about questioning everything, I think.

If something doesn't make you feel comfortable and if you feel like you are having to change the person you are you're in the you're fundamentally in an unhealthy relationship surely like you shouldn't have to change anything about yourself that's all we have time for this week on Millennial Love follow Independent Lifestyle on social media to keep up to date with what's coming up on the show and if you're a listener, remember to subscribe to this series on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Acast, or wherever you listen. Also, leave us a rating and comment with your thoughts on our conversation today. Until next time, thanks a lot for listening. Goodbye. T'was the season of chaos and all through the house, not one person was stressing. Holla differently this year with DoorDash.

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