Love Lives - Intimacy coordinator Ita O’Brien on how to choreograph the perfect sex scene

Episode Date: June 17, 2022

This week, we chat with intimacy coordinator and movement director Ita O’Brien. Ita is one of the most in-demand people working in the field, and specialises in developing the best practice for sexual and intimate scenes on screen. She’s worked on Normal People, Sex Education and I May Destroy You, to name but a few. Ita and Olivia discuss the role of intimacy coordinators, how they work with actors to help make them feel comfortable on set and why in the past, sex scenes have been ripe for abuse and exploitation.Check out Millennial Love on all major podcast platforms and Independent TV, and keep up to date @Millennial_Love on Instagram and TikTok.Support this show http://supporter.acast.com/millenniallove. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Breaking news happens anywhere, anytime. Police have warned the protesters repeatedly, get back. CBC News brings the story to you as it happens. Hundreds of wildfires are burning. Be the first to know what's going on and what that means for you and for Canadians. This situation has changed very quickly. Helping make sense of the world when it matters most. Stay in the know. CBC News.

Hello and welcome to Millennial Love, a podcast from the Independent on everything to do with love, sexuality, identity and more. This week I am so excited to be joined by intimacy coordinator Eta O'Brien. Eta is one of the leading people in this field in the UK having worked on shows such as Sex Education, I May Destroy You and Normal People. It's her job to develop the best practice for working on sex and intimate scenes on screen and I cannot wait to find out a little bit more about what she does and why it's so important and what the industry was like before without the role of intimacy coordinators which is still fairly new. So let's get into it. Hello Eta, how are you? I'm very good thank you, how are you? I'm good thank you. I'm so excited to

find out more about what it is that you do. I know I gave a brief introduction there but can you just explain a bit more about what your role is and how it works? So the role of the intimacy coordinator is a practitioner that just basically brings a professional process to the intimate content just like a choreographer would do if you're going to choreograph a waltz or a tango or a stunt coordinator would if you're going to do a stunt or a big fight. We're putting in place exactly the same. So we're serving the producers, putting in place best practice across the whole of a production. We're serving the director's vision. We're listening to the actors. The fundamental tenants are open communication and transparency and then putting in place agreement and consent from all involved.

And then clear choreography, that recognition that just like a stunt or just like a dance, it is a body dance. You've got two people moving together with touch. It is a body dance. And actually, you need a practitioner who has body skills, who has that understanding of choreography and rhythm to be able to choreograph really clearly. And that means that you can serve every detail that the director wants. You're honouring the actor's requirements and then allowing, with that clear choreography, the actor to bring all of their skills as an actor to this character in this moment in this you know beautiful scene of intimacy serves the director's vision and lets everybody get create the best work. So what really blows my mind is how new this all is and how rare it is in this industry for someone like you to actually think actually hang on we are filming a really intimate scene here potentially a very

triggering scene here who's making sure that these actors feel safe and are okay and feel comfortable so I know that you started developing this in 2014 but it wasn't until 2018 am I right that you were actually on set working with other actors so what was it that kind of prompted you to to start developing these guidelines was it that you had seen so many incidents of actors feeling uncomfortable? No, it was all down to a marvellous lady called Meredith Dufton, who at that time was the head of movement at Mountview,

one of the major drama schools in London. And, you know, we have been in conversation, you know, over the years. And I was telling her about the work that I was doing. And she said, please, will you come and start teaching the processes that you're developing in your R&D, new research and development. Because I've suddenly got all these plays that all of my second years and third years,

all have plays that have intimate content. As a head of movement, I have to go and support them and note that content. And if it's not telling the right storytelling, help to create the intimate content that does tell the right storytelling. And she said then there was no process by which to do it professionally. So she said, please do come in and start teaching what you're developing. And then also one of my co-movement teachers, a lady called Vanessa Ewan, who's one of the senior lecturers in movement at Central. movement teacher, a lady called Vanessa Ewan, who's one of the senior lecturers in movement at Central. She had already had the inspiration from watching a fight rehearsal and seeing the time and the space that was given to creating a fight and going, that's the principles that we

need for intimacy. So I was looking at how to hold a safe space, what practices and principles to allow my practitioners to be present, centred and grounded in themselves, with each other in the space, that sense of checking in always, so that someone's really present and conscious as they go into the work, and then at the end of the day, again rechecking in, being present and conscious and stepping away from the work really in a healthy way. And then Vanessa's inspiration, particularly the core of how you choreograph a fight scene you know slowly tai chi-ing it really slowly speaking it so that you know parry parry thrust thrust it's really frustrating to hear that because you think fight scenes have been choreographed in film and tv for

years and it's incredibly i mean it just it annoys me that sex scenes haven't been viewed in the same way, when if anything, it's more important because no one's actually necessarily being physically violent, but emotionally and psychologically, the stakes are a lot higher. So why do you think it did take so long for sex scenes to be considered in that way when fight scenes and all those other kind of things had been considered like that for years so i've got a few reflections as the works develop so first of all people are embarrassed to talk about sex yeah yeah so that's the bottom line first of all so considering the intimate content in a script and a play and then talking about it openly when there wasn't a professional process by which to

journey that consideration artistically through to performance wasn't there. So people were embarrassed and directors were embarrassed as much as anybody else. And then that aspect of it's clear that people don't know how to do a waltz or a tango. So of course you need a choreographer to come in and teach those steps and then choreograph it. It's clear that if you want to fight, you know, with someone's sword or fisticuffs, people don't know how to do the techniques to make it, you know, look, you know, stage combat techniques of making it look real, but it's pretend so that nobody actually gets physically hurt. So of course you're going to bring in a practitioner. And of course the intention is with your stunt coordinator or your choreographer, that you're going to either create a brilliant dance or create

a brilliant fight. And inherent within that is teaching techniques that brings in safety, or with a stunt coordinator, you're going to bring in, you know, crash mats. You know, so if you do a fall, it's all safe. But the focus is on a professional process, a professional practitioner that gives, that has those skills to give you those end results that you want. For me, so we've, you know've given that people are afraid to talk about intimate content, so it became the elephant in the room that nobody would talk about. And then the next thing is that it's clear that a director doesn't necessarily have the skills to be able to know how to do that themselves, to choreograph a fight or a dance. Of course need that practitioner but the sense is that we are all sexual beings so we all have sex so therefore why do you need a practitioner and

and that's it you know again where the sort of that sort of the intimate contents fell between you know sort of those kind of processes and my awareness is that actually it is a body dance as much as a tango and then also the idea of the risk assessment. So, of course, you're taking care in a risk assessment of a fight or a dance. Someone might twist their ankle if they're going to jump over, you know, from one roof to another that they might fall and, you know, get seriously injured. The thing is with intimate content is the injury can be physical, but actually more likely than not, if someone's being manhandled or is, you know,

sort of asked to be naked beyond their boundaries, that that injury that someone's feeling that they'll, you know, go away imploding is not just physical, but emotional and psychological. And for me, that's where, you know, a producer, of course, is going to mitigate against possible being sued if someone physically injures themselves. while for years and years and years so many actors would speak about how uncomfortable or awkward or feeling downright abused it was to perform the intimate content but um but until finally that tipping point of the um ladies coming forward around the Weinstein allegations and finally they'd been taken seriously. Finally, as Oprah Winfrey said, you are being listened to and heard.

And then, therefore, the fallout, the injury was taken seriously. It was until that was really taken on board by producers, and therefore someone could possibly say, you know, I've experienced this, you know, bad behaviour, and now there's a fault to be answered that the industry then really changed I mean it's interesting because I think there's been such widely expressed gratitude for what it is that you do I mean it was Michaela Cole wasn't it who thanked you in her speech for the BAFTAs and I can imagine you hear a lot of horror stories from

people expressing their gratitude to you telling you thank you so much because this is what I've been through before this this is what it was like before. For those of us outside the industry, we have no real sense of what it was like before, but I can imagine knowing the stories that we know from Me Too, that there was a lot of exploitation and probably abuse going on

when they were filming these sex scenes without any sort of supervision. Can you give us an idea of what sort of things were happening that now hopefully are not happening thanks to the role of people like you? Well, this is it. So first of all, yes, of course, there have been people who have taken the opportunity of the intimate content to be abusive or predatory but actually a lot of bad practice was just done from people you know like I say not having a professional process and just in that void of just not mentioning it so you know so very often if an actor's doing an

intimate scene they'd come on the day they'd be saying to their wardrobe department oh it's intimate scene today nobody's spoken about to them about it perhaps that's the first time that they'll see the gamut of intimacy garments that they could possibly wear you know the modesty garments that they could wear and they come on set and the director will go okay this is what this scene is um this is what we need okay and either one or two things would happen either you two now you go away and work it out for yourselves. Or say, great, this is what we want. There you go, up in front of the camera, go for it. And in both of those situations, it's clear, isn't it, that you, that the actors invariably are wanting to say yes, are wanting to give the best of themselves, are wanting to serve and please the director. But you've got this halfway house that they're

concerned for themselves. They're concerned for the other person. You know, where am I going to be touched? Where is it OK for me to touch this other person? How are we actually going to do this? You know, and in that place, that's where you've got, you know, decades and decades of uncomfortable intimate content. The other thing that was inherent in the industry was this idea that if you want actors to look like they've got chemistry if you've got actors that to look like they really fancy each other it has to be real wasn't it because they've got to have chemistry yeah and you have the you

know the comments like oh we've got the sex scene tomorrow you two better go out and have have dinner today together did people really do that really seriously wow absolutely or um yeah and um so this confusion between who somebody is personally and then who somebody is professionally in this character so in this character's relationship within this particular story and and um yeah and even when i started sharing the work you know it was a thing but but if they've got to look like they really fancy each other, then, you know, how can that be rehearsed? And it was like this incredible thing of going, you know, this isn't someone's real life. This is this character and it's these two characters.

And when someone's a good actor, they're going to step into that character. And this is character storyline that they're going to tell. It's this character's intimate expression that they're going to tell, not their own. And of course that's where there was such confusion and um and while i'm not saying that you know if you bring in an intimacy coordination it means that there will never be you know a company romance or whatever but it does it really does help the actor to separate out who they are and what they really feel from who this character is and what this character really feels, and trusting your actors to bring all of their skills to act this beautiful chemistry.

It's so tricky, isn't it? Because it's about, it sounds like before it was almost predicated on having no boundaries, like you said, and blurring the personal and the professional. And not only is that insulting to the actors in terms of their ability to actually perform, but it's also, it puts these people in a very strange position but then on the other side of the coin you do have all of these instances where actors do hook up on set so it's a very strange thing but I think obviously in the first instance professionalism should be the by the book thing that everyone is striving towards

obviously and this is it you know know to be able to continue with the intimate content that you have your director there and the directors you know you're serving the directors beats and then in order to do that then it's choreographed really clearly you know sort of and that's where you know when you have really good writing so sex education I remember the scene choreographing the scene in season two with the Ola and Otis, when you had the clock masturbation moment. Yes. So that was a brilliantly written scene. You've got all these different beats. I think there was at least 16 beats in that scene.

And, you know, spoke to the director, choreographed it really clearly. And then we got it up in front of camera, then going through it again. And that's where then, see, that's what's so lovely is that the bare bones of the structure of the scene and making sure we agree touch. And yeah, and then we had the choreography. We had to do the, you know, six, 12, you know, was it 12, three, six, nine, yeah,

some years ago, his gaze going. But then each actor can bring their artistry. 12, 3, 6, 9 years and he had all his gays going but then each actor can bring their artistry so you know then Asa Butterfield then really bringing Otis to the performance of it the way he sort of walked the fingers down that he hadn't necessarily done in rehearsals

because when you've got clear choreography then there's space within that for the actor to play and space within that for the director to note it and go okay so perhaps up the humor up your uncomfortableness and in that in that scene we choreographed all of it and then there was an extra beat where you know a particular reaction oh no we don't need that that's one beat too many can take that out so that's what you can do you know when you've choreographed it really clearly whoa did you hear that panthera partis if i'm not mistaken cool i'm earth ranger emma by the way

wildlife investigator and podcasting legend i'm on a mission to uncover the secrets of the animal kingdom catch all the action of the animal kingdom. Catch all the action on the Earth Rangers podcast, where you can join the wild journey and learn how to protect our amazing planet. Look for Earth Rangers in your favorite podcast thingy. I'll meet you there. ACAST powers the world's best podcasts. Here's a show that we recommend.

KCast powers the world's best podcasts. Here's a show that we recommend. I'm Jessie Kirkshank, and on my podcast, Phone a Friend, I break down the biggest stories in pop culture. But when I have questions, I get to phone a friend. I phone my old friend, Dan Levy. You will not die hosting the Hills after show. I get thirsty for the hot wiggle.

I didn't even know what thirsty meant until there was all these headlines. And I get schooled by a tween. Facebook is like a no, that's what my grandma's on. Thank God Phone a Friend with Jesse Crookshank is not available on Facebook. It's out now wherever you get your podcasts. Acast helps creators launch, grow, and monetize their podcasts everywhere. Acast.com So let's talk about the nature of your actual work. When you take on a project, what's the first thing you do? Do you have a sit-down with every actor involved? Do you have that chat with what they are and are not comfortable with? Do you talk to people together? And then how does it work in terms of

the choreography and, you know, the rehearsals before filming a sex scene? So, yeah, so the shift is that what we're putting in place is just a professional process. Yes. And then, you know, and that's where people say to me sometimes um you're there um to keep everybody safe right and it's like no you wouldn't say to a stunt coordinator or to a choreographer you're there just to keep people safe no you're there to bring your artistry and to focus on serving the director's vision and create the best fight the best dance yes and for me it's exactly the same so So just really opening out and going, I'm just bringing a bog standard,

professional and open act director process to the intimate content, just like you would anything else. So it's asking the director, first of all, to think about the intimate content earlier than they might have done so that they can consider it. And so on a production,

invariably perhaps i'll speak to the producer first because i'm fundamentally i'm employed by them i'll be sent a script i'll identify the intimate scenes and then i'll talk to the director you know especially in early days it was a concern that the director would feel that um is this new role going to come in and take over or does it show a lack of trust of myself with my actors and of course I'm going no absolutely not you wouldn't say that because you're bringing in a stunt coordinator it means suddenly the actors don't trust you it's like no you know that person's bringing in skills that's the same here so first off listening to the director what do you want for this scene

what's your image about it what's your camera angles that you've thought about have you got a storyboard always you know that drawing drawing you got a storyboard? Always, you know, that drawing out of a storyboard, brilliant. Invariably, you know, by the time you get to the intimate content in that free salon, it comes to touch. It's a body dance. So again, we want, you know, it's a visual thing. It's a physical thing. So if you can do storyboards, great. So once you've checked out with the director, then you're checking out with the actors. I always say to the director, you speak to the actors first. So everybody knows that the vision checked out with the director then you're checking out the actors or i always say to the director you speak to the actors first so everybody knows that the vision is coming from the director once that's signed off i'll speak with the actors going great you know what the director wants what are your requirements regarding nudity about where

you're comfortable to be touched about around what you're happy to perform simulated sexual content wise sometimes that means i'll share that back with the director, go okay so you want a moment where the dress just opens and drops and you want the full back nakedness. So this actor is happy to have naked back down to the small of her back. She's happy for you to film from the mid thigh down. So let's look at how we're going to choreograph that so you get the influence of you know that, they're here and just dropping. Perhaps you open and it drops. So the camera's to the small of the back. And then perhaps it goes to a close-up of the man who's observing this and then come back to seeing the dress drop into the floor.

There's so many ways, you know, that you can tell the same physical story, the same intimate story, the same degree of nakedness, that an audience will get the storytelling, but doing it in ways that will honour and serve the actor's requirements so that's part of the process going to wardrobe checking with wardrobe again a big part of intimate content is then the modesty garments so the actor is always as covered as possible checking in with makeup if that's needed perhaps it's a period piece they want a sense of nudity but someone's got a whole load of very modern tattoos over them so we'll check in with them checking in with the

first ad to make sure or co-work with the first ad to make sure that a closed set is running really well and really respectfully so that's all the check-ins um and that's the open communication transparency and um i always say to people people say to me so how does it go the day on set when i say the day on set is is now the tip of the iceberg when you've done all of that work that's where then the day on set can run smoothly and will you have physical rehearsals with actors for a sex scene that's the other thing that was a biggie in the industry when i started saying okay we need time to rehearse this intimate scene. And I would have like the first AD going to me, oh, we can never make time to rehearse a sex scene.

While on that very course sheet on that very day, you've got actors finish their scene and stunt rehearsal. You know, so again, it was early days. It was flipping people's minds to going. Of course, you're going to rehearse a stunt scene, because of course you know that you want it all choreographed, so you can be efficient and quick, so when you get up on set, everybody knows what they're doing. Yeah, it's so interesting what you said about it coming from people feeling embarrassed about sex, because I think it's obviously that,

and it's also just this degree of shame that people have attached to sex and sexuality and it's it's unbelievable to think that that's impacting people's safety at work which is obviously what it is in this context and you know it's so brilliant that we have this system in place now and the guidelines that you have issued that are now being used widely across the industry aren't they um tell me a bit more about the kind of the nitty-gritty of it because I'm really interested by the modesty garments what what do those actually look like and also the the different like props that people might use in a sex scene to to simulate sex and intimacy like I know that Jonathan Bailey and Bridgerton spoke about using a deflated netball

those kind of things. Where to start okay so so let's start rehearsals. So invariably in rehearsals we want to definitely you know keep everybody feeling really comfortable and really safe. So yes so that's one technique is have a deflated balloon or deflated yeah sort of yoga ball or something like that. I haven't actually used that particular technique. Each intimacy coordinator is developing their own ways. I sort of started working with, you know, the perhaps flesh-coloured pair of pants. And then I bought some lamb's wool and stuffed it with, you know, lamb's wool and sewed it up. So basically creating genitalia cushions. Right.

So you can put them between people. And yes, and then gradually develop different shapes depending on the intimate content so I've got one if someone's sitting having sex sat astride someone so we've got one that's sat astride that people have started calling the banana and yeah so so I've got a whole gamut of different cushions which I now bring along. And then also very often to put those cushions particularly if say the camera's shooting from upper body up, but you've got that sense of intercourse and the actors can put the cushions, perhaps they'll wear flesh-coloured shorts and then they'll put the big cushions inside that so this gives you an extra layer. And so they can really

bring each other's bodies in towards each other have that really close contact but they're really you know protected and their their actual bodies aren't touching that can allow an actor to feel a lot more comfortable and then that that journey of rhythm go through the two bodies but and also sort of as a movement practitioner um so if if you're under the covers or if you've got clothes on so another one that's that those kind of techniques are good for is like period costume period pieces where you've got the big skirts again you can very clearly have your fresh colored shorts and your big cushions in there yeah and but if there's you know they're

above the sheets and there's a degree of nakedness, then obviously those cushions are going to be seen. So then we bring in techniques of looking at anchoring. So I'm looking at sort of anchoring sort of side of thighs into thighs and have the energy moving in there. So really pulling thigh into hip or thigh into thigh so that a rhythm will journey through both bodies so that they have a rhythm together. And so it reads from the side of the camera. But if you brought your camera around the other side, you could see that the genitalia are nowhere near each other. So just as you would do, it's just the same kind of thing with a punch. You know, at the right camera angle, the punch, you know, looks like it's landing.

And of course, it's all sold on the person who's receiving the punch. But yeah, because it's so interesting because like you said you would never because when you watch these sex scenes on screen particularly the ones in normal people that I know you worked on you you can't imagine how they're doing that and not actually touching each other and um it's it's so interesting how long does it take to film a sex scene and how many times typically would an actor have to go over it again and again or is that just the same as any normal scene? It is the same as any normal scene. So first of all the other thing I want to add in that's

really important is that very often when you're shooting a scene the director will start with a wide shot first and then do the tooth shot and then do the close up. But actually what you want is for the actor to feel really comfortable and if you start with your wide shot and it's this intimate scene where you want the infants that are both completely naked it means that they're in the least amount of genitalia um modesty garments always say don't do that start with your two shot or your close-up so they can have um you know the as many of the modesty garments as on as you can so we're always looking at so that the least is um you know the as many of the modesty garments as on as you can so we're always looking at sort of the least is um you know for um someone with the vagina is just a genitalia

patch which is basically like a g-string without the side so it sticks above here really and sticks into the small of the back well between the buttocks for those with the penis um we have the genitalia pouch and then the the hibou over the top so again it's the same sort of thing so that the genitalia are held in and then the hibou holds it close to the body and that's a brilliant technique that allows the actor to move really freely and then the next layer up is a flesh-colored dance belt for the gentleman flesh-colored g-string um you know for those with a vagina and then fresh coloured pants and then flesh coloured shorts i like flesh coloured shorts you know because then um if someone you know sort

of is performing a sex scene and they've got sort of legs in between then the flesh coloured shorts are really great and then of course um if you don't want your nipples to be seen you've got nipple daisies which are nipple covers and then flesh coloured bras or bandana bras flesh coloured camisole tops so we're always looking at having the actor as covered as possible and then gradually you know as you pull out then say okay you're happy now to take your um you know camisole top off and then only finally you know to to come down to the least amount and what that means is that by then the rhythm of the scenes known you know they've done it loads of times the um the director's been able to bring in loads of notes

they've been able to find their flow and their freedom within the choreography and then by the time you get to the wide shot you've got a really beautiful stunning scene as you can see in normal people yeah and how much do you encourage the two actors involved to kind of have a conversation beforehand obviously not go out and get drunk together so that it looks like you fancy each other but you know obviously to have those conversations how much do you facilitate that before a scene like is it part of your process to tell people i want you to just spend some time together just to talk about what you are not comfortable with so for me it is bringing the bog standard actor director process and process and it always comes from script.

So it's about, you know, say the process on set is or in a rehearsal, you start from reading the script. So you do with any scene and then at that point, I'm just being present and you're listening to the director saying what they want. The actors offering their thoughts thoughts who these characters are why that seems there what's it telling us about the moment so you're facilitating all of this juicy gorgeous creative professional conversation so that everybody's journeying through to gradually find the sort of shape of the scene from that conversation. Now, how often does it happen? You can probably tell I'm gonna ask you whether you're smiling.

And one of the actors you're working with does take it a little bit too seriously and gets a little bit too excited on camera. And how do you deal with that? And yeah, what happens? Because I imagine the best thing to do is just say it's normal and this is part of what happens. But how often does that happen? I'm curious to know. And yes, tell me more about how you deal

with that. Bodily functions, isn't it? Natural and normal. So those with wombs and vaginas, menstruation, natural and normal part of our lives. So I open up that conversation. I say to producers, find out the menstrual cycle of your actors and actresses and try and schedule the intimate scenes when they're not menstruating. Oh, wow. That's a really good idea. It makes such a difference if you're full on. Can you imagine stomach cramps? Yeah. Particularly if you're in first or second day in a really heavy flow having to navigate tampons pads oh just ups the ante so so that's not good and what was really lovely i was on a production that um that um that i've set up but as yet i haven't had a chance to be present

and i've just taken over as the intimacy coordinator and i met with one of the actors and they and she said that the producers had asked her what her menstrual cycle is wow so there's that aspect and again it's making it open and it's natural and normal and yes um my little spiel is you know particularly if you've choreographed a full-on you know um intercourse scenes from kissing through to youousal into penetration into rhythm to orgasm. It's natural, it's normal, two bodies moving together to possibly become aroused. However, it's not suitable to have an erection in the workplace. I love the way you said that. Quite right. No, it is not.

Quite right. No, it is not. So we put in place a timeout and that's for any reason whatsoever. It's really important to put in place a timeout so the actors have the autonomy to halt the action for whatever reason and that's in rehearsal and in performance, be it in front of camera and in theatre. But I can talk about that one in a minute. So, yeah, so you can put in, you can call time out for any reason. Your nipple daisy might be falling off or you desperately need to go to the loo or you've become aroused. And then actors say to me, oh, I'll be so embarrassed. I'm going, look, there's so many reasons that you can call a time out. You can feel if you're becoming aroused you don't wait until it becomes obvious just call a timeout there's no questions asked it's completely respected we call a halt we take a break go and refresh and come back yeah that makes sense okay

tell me about the theatre now because obviously that's a very different ball game to filming because you can't really stop and start as quickly and the stakes are almost high even though i imagine in the theatre maybe it's easier because you're seeing people from further away you don't ddim yn gallu dechrau a dechrau'n gyflym ac mae'r trefiadau yn eithaf uchel, er ei fod yn dweud i mi, mewn theatr, efallai yw'n haws oherwydd rydych chi'n gweld pobl o'r ffordd fwyaf, nid oes gennych y sgwydiau cyflym. Felly o ran gwrthdaroedd, efallai yw hynny'n eithaf haws. Mae'r gwahaniaeth neu'r penderfyniadau gwahanol gyda theatr, felly er ei fod yn ffilmio, rydych chi'n gwybod, ble mae'r camera'n mynd i fod yn theatr, ble mae'r llinellau oedd, rydych chi'n gwybod beth fydd yn cael eu gweld a phwy all eu gweld ble. you've got the, where's the camera going to be? In theatre, it's where are the sight lines? You know, what's going to be seen and who can be seen where? And very often in theatre, of course,

you might abstract something. You might not perhaps do a full-on, you know, intimate scene. You might perhaps go into slow motion or you might have people behind a screen and do it in silhouette, you know. So obviously in theatre, there's different theatrical and artistic ways that you might depict an intimate scene.

But it's still really important that you have the autonomy to halt the action and this you know for me the journey of realising this and then gradually putting in place a timeout for theatre has been a really interesting journey the fact that you know certainly when I was you know in my years of performance I remember having a full- on flu when I was in sort of panto at the Dominion Theatre, you know, with horrendous, you know, flu-y sweat, dosing myself up and just you go on stage and you just perform because there's no question that you could miss the performance, the idea of Doctor Theatre. And that sense of as an actor, you would overstep your own boundaries because that's just what

being asked of you you're sure up put up put on you know get on with it and you just do whatever's asked of you and um and for me with this work it's gradually flipping it and going no this is someone's workplace and it is someone's day of work and we should be putting in place bog standard hr processes as we would do if we were in an office. So anyway, so on stage, again, it's like, well, how do you put in place a timeout? So, you know, and is it suitable to perhaps halt a performance because you're not feeling comfortable? So there are several ways that you can put in place a timeout. So one, you can have like a safe word that's just between you and your partner that you'd say under your breath that they know that you might mean that you just pause with the intimate content. Or you could just literally stand back so you're out of arm's reach, continue the dialogue.

You know, and it's obvious that something's happened that's not right. Or if it's really what's needed, you just walk off stage. There was a case in a performer in the Rocky Horror Show who was playing Frankenfurter. And there's a moment where there's an intimate scene with the character playing Janet. And there was choreographed, you know, moment for this. But in the flow of the theatre performance performance he did not abide to that choreography and actually touched her genital area oh wow and um his defense was that um he was in character this is the thing isn't it because this is what i imagine happened a lot on set and actors would use that that's right as an excuse for predatory behavior that's right you know and

and then that you know actor endured it um and then you know it came to court um and my i'm saying to you know an audience would far rather know that the actors have the autonomy to help the action rather than them knowing that they were actually in an audience and being party to witnessing an assault would you not agree yeah and and um yeah so so yes if something's happening that is is assaulting you or it's beyond your boundaries just you know if you know like i say there's those different things you can do or you just walk off stage go to the stage manager halt the show you if you can reset and then carry on or curtain comes down and and again you know with this with the opening out of these conversations and the understanding of me too and everything i really do you know it

is really interesting when i first say that how do you put a time out in theater people are going you can see the schism of like well those two things just don't equate, but actually they do. And again, if you know that you can, you know, sort of be, you know, be respected, be autonomous, again, an actor can be way freer. Yeah, because I think what's also interesting about that is, yes, an actor would, an actor who was a perpetrator would legitimise it to themselves, they think, you know, I was just in character, but then the victim of that assault would probably do the same and internalize it and think because I mean you do that with with sexual assault anyway but particularly if you are filming something or performing something and someone does that to you you would

probably talk yourself out of speaking up about it because you would think well you know they were just they were just doing their part and you know it's on me for not getting as into the role as they were like that internal dialogue is so is so tricky but also I can imagine why that happens and how how often did this kind of thing happen do you think before oh do you know what sadly you know from all the workshops that I've done um I always start with asking people to speak about when it's been done well and when it hasn't been done well and I promise you nearly everybody has a story of it being awkward or harassing or abusive and they say they have to say I can't even think of a time that it's been done well yeah god it's it's awful and I mean this brings me on to the next thing I wanted to talk to you about because you worked on one of my favorite shows I may destroy, which I just thought was so brilliant.

Incredible, isn't it? It was absolutely incredible. But one of those, you know, it's one thing to coordinate a sex scene. It's another to coordinate a sexual assault. And, you know, in that kind of instance, the stakes are obviously incredibly high and people might get triggered by certain things. How do you handle something like that from a choreography point of view and from a safety point of view psychologically? So first of all from pure choreography when it's you know a sexual assault invariably you're looking at some degree of

aggression so either you know I have you know I've done my stage combat but I'm by but I will co-work you know with a stunt coordinator and we'll put in place you know really clear choreography that uses reverse energy so you know so if it's someone holding someone down with their arm then we'll be looking at the person holding we'll just create the frame and the person who's being held will hold well they'll be the one that control they'll be pushing into them so they just create resistance you know so i've had this where you know someone had to grab someone by the arm and so you're saying that you just care and you create the frame with your arms and you hold that this person that's being held that controls pushing into the arms so so um but then when you get into the flow of the energy of the

perpetration the victim it's actually got that reverse psychology or that reverse energy so that keeps everybody safe and keeps the person who's playing the victim in control of the energy. But that takes quite a bit more rehearsal. Yeah. So you really anchor. So just really, really anchoring in the choreography and you know, slowing it down as you do with stage combat, you know, taking slow-mo so that you walk it through again, walking it through, saying in words, you know, so you-mo so that you walk it through, again, walking it through, saying in words, you know,

so, you know, I turn to face you, I put my hand on the back of your neck, I take your arm, I kneel onto the bed, I place you down onto the bed, you know, so that it's slow motion, you're doing a physical choreography, saying in words, so that you're really connecting consciously what you're physically doing, you know, with, you know, with your presence. So that, so you're doing that. And then, and then just acknowledging that sort of acknowledging then the emotional and psychological journey of it, invariably keeping it, the choreography really clean without any emotion at all. So that then

you say that the, you know, the full on quality of the perpetration of the victim to the performance. And then yes, whenever there's subject matters that are challenging, I will always say that I, you know, I can facilitate and hold to a certain point and I can perhaps recognise if someone has been activated or triggered, but I don't have those skills of a counsellor. So since 2015, I've co-worked with an artist wellbeing practitioner called Lou Platt, but there are more artist wellbeing practitioners now in the industry. And I will say that, that she's part of my team, part of what i offer for me being a robust practitioner um to co-work with me and to offer that to a production and um yeah and that if anybody is triggered or activated

that that is the person that i will refer them on to or find out if that production has got their own um counselor in place really important, really important because I just think how psychologically challenging that must be to film a scene like that. You know, regardless of whether you're a sexual assault survivor or not, you know, it would just be an incredibly difficult thing to go through. That's right and right from my, when I was doing my R&D research and development, I did two rounds of it and I'm exploring the dynamic of the perpetration of victim and I had the very first day and we were just dealing with catcalling on the street and the first day we were all talking about when we've you know received a wolf whistle I had someone call out to us and all of us

were very comfortable in you know honing in on our different stories and then you know you know we got up and then found a physical score that depicted that the following day then I looked at when we were all perhaps the moment that we were the perpetrator who had taken or overstepped someone's boundaries and wow that was the tricky day. And so it's right from then that I realised wow for a performer to step into that place to investigate themselves or to open up a place in themselves that they can draw on in order to play the perpetrator takes as much if not more care than the person playing the victim. neu i ddod i'r afael â'r lle yn eu hunain, i'w ddod i'r afael i chwarae'r perthynwr, mae'n cymryd mor, os na ddim, mwy o gofnod

na'r person sy'n chwarae'r ddyn. Mae'n ddiddorol iawn, oherwydd rwy'n credu bod y gwaith hyn sy'n ymwneud â chi yn gweithredu yn dda, yn gweithredu yn dda yn gweithredu yn dda, yn gweithredu yn dda yn gweithredu yn dda, yn gweithredu yn dda yn gweithredu yn dda, yn gweithredu yn dda yn gweithredu yn dda, yn gweithredu yn dda

yn gweithredu yn dda, yn gweithredu yn dda yn gweithredu yn dda, yn gweithredu yn dda yn gweithredu yn dda, yn gweithredu yn dda yn gweithredu yn dda, yn gweithredu yn dda and the writing that we're getting because we are getting so much more nuanced portrayals of sex and relationships on screen but also of sexual assault because I know you know previously there's been so many really damaging portrayals of rape on screen that are very much the stereotypical stranger being dragged into an alley which is you know like one percent of cases and I think we are getting to a place where what we're seeing on screen is actually being really helpful and really beneficial and really educational. I have been completely bowled over, you know, in those 2018-2019, just head down, you know,

trying to put in place this process. It really was baptism of fire and, you know, sort of trying to put in place a process, knowing how to talk to producer or the director, when, how to put in place rehearsals, you know, the different language that supports the producer to that that the director wants to hear, to that of the actor and the crew as well. This is the crew's workplace. So from that just bog standard head down, just putting in place the process, opening it out to being professional, choreographing it really clearly. Then as those productions start to go out and then the impact of that, so for example, the incredible positive impact of normal people

and particularly top of episode two where it's, you know, the character of Marianne opening up to her sexual awakening but being able to ask for protection, to ask for consent consent consent to being offered and to being offered in the beautiful way that stayed with the juiciness of the loving you know but you know that dialogue and that continuous consent being offered and invited um and then the impact that that's had you know so I've had secondary schools and you know um contacted me saying we are now using that scene as part of our sex education in school. I know this is it. And then people like from I May Destroy You, people from the queer male black community contacting me saying thank you for being seen and heard. People from the queer community, queer lesbian community with Gentleman Jack saying thank you at last.

and Jack saying thank you at last other than the fact that Surround James' Nails were too long um you know interpret content that really told our story um and um so I've bowled over by that and then realizing the the responsibility and then the possibility of that you know that actually we can go further with that we can go further we're getting the detail right and inviting more detail so there's been a script in recently um where one of the main characters is a trans character and one of the first big sex scenes within the um the episode that i've read is this amazing beautiful full-on sex scene with a um someone from the trans community so important and again let's get this detail right so that you know uh you we're helping, you know, our humanity and our audiences out there to really see themselves and feel validated and respected. But this is, again, it just makes me think, why is it taking so long for this to exist? That stuff is so important. That could have a lasting impact on that person.

on that person it's just it's so so vital I'm so pleased that it it does exist now but it do you think it's because of me too that now this has become a mainstream is becoming more and more mainstream on sets do you think if it wasn't for me too we wouldn't quite be there yet yes so so fundamentally when I started sharing this work you know know, the basic narrative that I was offering, which was sort of a flip to the received, you know, narrative around intimate scenes, which was, you're an actor, you know, you know that sex and nudity and intimate content is part of your job. So if you're an actor, that's what you should, you know, expect to do. and then it that sense of as an actor if you ever said no you were considered a troublemaker um or a diva and you certainly would be concerned that if you kicked up that kind of fuss or called your boundaries in any way that um that you'd lose your job and that was the case um and that sense of you know sort of um well, just because the structure wasn't there to be professional.

And as I started developing the work and sharing it with the students in drama school, you know, and they would say to me, how can I, straight out of drama school, be, you know, having these conversations? And I was saying, you flip the narrative. You know, it's saying I, as an artist, want to give you as a director the best of my skills the best of my intimate content serving the storytelling and the way that I can do that is by working professionally through a professional process such as the intimacy on set guidelines and and and so you're offering you're having an artistic conversation with your director and if you can hear that your director has no process and no safe rehearsal rehearsal structure or indeed any intention to rehearse at all then

you're offering the director a solution and offering them the best of yourself not a problem so so that was the beginning of it sort of beginning to flip to flip the the dynamic and helping the um um you know sort of the actor to to to give to give an empowered conversation rather than feeling you're going along with going, oh, I don't want to be naked. It's turning upside down. And that's why also I've changed the word to rather than setting my boundaries, it's like, what are your requirements?

What are your requirements regarding your nakedness, your simulated sexual content and where you're comfortable to be touched? What do you require? And then we will honour your requirements. And then if, you know, you know, and then we can work creatively, you know, working with camera angles, working with choreography to tell the same physical storytelling, but using, you know, perhaps different camera angle different choreography um that serves the director's vision serves your requirements and still creates intimate

content that's what's needed i mean quite frankly we should be having those conversations when we're not acting as well about about what what are you not okay with um god i could talk to you for hours um but it's time for our lessons in love segment so this is the part of the show where i ask every guest to share something that they've learned about relationships but I think from you I'd love to hear about what you have learned in your role just about intimacy in general and and I guess to my point earlier about how we can carry the things that you do in your job into our real sex lives um especially as a menopausal woman sort of just that question of of our intimacy and our journey through you know to that intimate content and um and making time and space for it and that also sort of came

in really around lockdown with covid when suddenly our home space was everything wasn't it was our place we were intimate the place we you know sort of try to engage with our kids, a place where we were working. And so for me, you know, that's been the fundamental journey of just as we're asking, you know, to make time and space to consider this, to give it time and space, you know, to consider it, to talk about it, rehearse it. So not that you're necessarily going to rehearse, but just putting in place a structure of boundaries ynghylch hynny, a'i rhagor. Felly nid yn unig y byddwch yn ei rhagor, ond yn ymlaen ystod y ffyrdd o fwynau. Ac yna, dyna'r peth gyda'r cyngor hefyd, mae'n debyg nad yw'r cyd-dysgu yn golygu bod yn rhaid i'w gael gyd-dysgu yn ffysig, ond yn gwbl, a chael eich hun i ddod â phopeth arall

i'w gadael, a rhoi amser a chyfle i fod yn bresennol gyda'ch else aside and giving yourself time and space to be present you know with your loved ones um and and for me also that wasn't that's not just with my life partner but also with my kids you know sort of like my my daughter would um you know would say to me sort of you're here but you're not here because you're now allowed your work to just leak into everything you know so again creating boundaries during those lockdown periods where where you go okay this is my time of work and now let's put that aside and actually you know honor that boundary of spending time say with my daughter going down the bottom of the garden having a cup of tea with her or spending time so and that and for me that's a biggie is actually understanding that putting boundaries in place is actually honouring myself and honouring the people that you love. Yeah, absolutely. Gosh, thank you so much, Ita. It's been such a pleasure to talk to you.

And thank you so much for listening. If you have enjoyed this episode of Millennial Love, you can subscribe to us on Apple Podcasts, Acast, Spotify or wherever it is that you get your podcasts. You can also now watch us too too if you would rather do that. We are on The Independent TV on the website. And please do subscribe and like and share and do all of those things so that more people can find us. And we will see you next time. Bye-bye. This episode is brought to you by Google Pixel.

I'm Jessi Cruikshank. I host the number one comedy podcast called Phone a Friend. I also have three kids. I need help making every day easier. So I switched to Google Pixel. It's a phone powered by Gemini, your personal AI assistant. Gemini can help you summarize your unread emails, suggest what to make with the food in your fridge, and it helped me achieve a family photo where everyone is smiling at the camera.

I didn't think it was possible, but it is with Google Pixel 9. Learn more at store.google.com.