Love Lives - Munroe Bergdorf on coming out and gender identity

Episode Date: October 11, 2019

Activist and writer Munroe Bergdorf joins Olivia in the studio to discuss her experiences of coming out as a trans woman and offers some valuable advice to people in the LGBT+ community.Munroe also addresses the problematic concept of gender reveal parties, in which expecting parents share the biological sex of their unborn child with friends and family members.Stay updated with all things Millennial Love by following The Independent lifestyle desk's Instagram account below.Independent Lifestylehttps://www.instagram.com/indy.lifestyle/Munroe Bergdorfhttps://www.instagram.com/munroebergdorf/Olivia Petterhttps://www.instagram.com/oliviapetter8/Support this show http://supporter.acast.com/millenniallove. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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focusing on everything to do with sexuality, relationships, identity and more. We touch on a wide variety of topics ranging from how to have feminist sex to how dating has changed in the post-MeToo era. I'm your host Olivia Petter and today on the programme I'm joined by activist and writer Munro Bergdorf to discuss Coming Out. Enjoy the show! The idea of coming out I think can sometimes possibly sound a little bit problematic because when we talk about it, we talk about revealing to your friends and family that you identify with a sexuality or a gender identity that is neither heterosexual nor cisgender. Therefore, I think the assumption is that heterosexuality and cisgender is the norm.

So is that not quite troubling that we have that from the get-go? For sure it is. And if I had it my way, then, you know, no one would have to come out. But we live in a society that does prioritise those two facets of people's identity that, you know, straight people are kind of just seen as the default and cisgender people are seen as the default so really what we need to do is start breaking that down and then if we break that down then people won't need to come out because we all will be seen as equal but until we're seen as equal then people are you know gonna feel the need to come out because it's you know their

identity isn't prioritized but yeah it is a because it's, you know, their identity isn't prioritised. But yeah, it is a shame that people feel, you know, pressured to come out. And that should never be the deal. You should only come out if you feel safe to and if you feel like you're ready in so far as your mental health or your situation or your surroundings, your environment. health or your situation or your surroundings your environment um and if you're supported as well it can be a difficult thing and I've come out about three times yeah this is what I wanted to ask you about because I think you're such a brilliant person to speak to about this so the first time would you mind sharing how how old you were and what happened I think I came out originally originally when I was about 11 um and I just kind of mentioned that I liked boys

um to my parents and then I was quickly told that that's not a thing and and then Kate went back into the closet because um I was just told that I'd be bullied and all of this kind of stuff just put the fear of God into me by just like people that I told um so I was like forced to just you know repress it and I did and then I came out again when I was 15 and um that was to my parents and that was obviously traumatic again because my parents hadn't really seen any success stories of queer people so what do you mean by success stories um I think that the narrative in the media was pretty much, if you're gay, you will die. That was pretty much it. And or you'll end up, you know, on the streets or, you know, addicted to drugs and all of these kind of things.

Like the stories in the in the media or like soaps were really tragic and usually ended up with a gay person dying. So or contracting HIV and then that would be the end of the world because there's not, you know, any education around the subject of having HIV. So yeah, it really did scare me as well. I thought, you know, if I come out and if I'm actually gay, then it's going to be the end of the world because people aren't going to support me. I'm not going to find anyone that loves me and it was just really really difficult so my parents kind of put all of the worry out there and it was really difficult for a period of time and then they acclimatized and realized actually still my child nothing's changed and then I came out as trans when I was 23 to my friends. And why did

you decide to come out to your friends before your family? I think because I felt that if I came out to my family first then I wouldn't have my friends to fall back on. It was kind of strategic on my behalf, like in my head subconsciously. But I just thought if I come out to my friends first, know where the ground lies, they support me, then I can come out to my parents. And if my parents take it as bad as they took me coming out when I was gay,

then I can just rely on my friends. But it wasn't actually that bad. My mum took it quite badly. But it wasn't actually that bad. You know, like my mum took it quite badly. My mum's just very like feisty. She's very like me. And she, I think the main thing to also bear in mind, if you're coming out and you're worried about how people react, a lot of it is just miseducation and them not understanding, you know, the importance of coming out and the importance of, you know, being honest with yourself about your sexuality or your gender identity. And that's really what it

is. It's, you know, just living a life where you are streamlined in how other people see you and how you see yourself. And do you think when you spoke to your parents about it, the miseducation really shone through? Like, were they asking you lots of questions I think the main thing that came out with my relationship with my mom was you know the hopes and dreams that parents attach to their children um in so far as you know grandchildren and having um the wedding um that you ever that you always thought of or um you know the certain aspirations that you attach to your children. And I think it's a wider conversation that we need to have when it comes to gender.

So things like gender reveal parties, what are they in this? God, yeah, you're right. And they're really dangerous in America. It's really just attaching how you feel about gender, essentially, not your children, just gender to your child. They do very strange rituals for gender reveal parties in the States. I think I saw a video of one where they got a crocodile and they put some like blue smoke in the crocodile's mouth.

And they put some like blue smoke in the crocodile's mouth. And then that, I don't know, somehow they safely revealed the smoke. And that was how they revealed that they were having a boy. But you're right. They're very problematic, the actual concept of those things. A few weeks back, actually, the creator of the gender reveal party tweeted that she thinks that it's extremely dangerous for gender non-conforming or trans children. And ultimately, all it is is revealing your child's genitals. That's all it is. Because you have no idea how that child's going to identify.

And it really is just placing all of your hopes and dreams on this child based on their gender. You see, like, videos of, you know, dads getting upset when they find out that they've got a girl or like um mums find getting upset when they find out that they've got a boy because they wanted a girl it's like this is not good guys like fair enough if you know you want to celebrate that you've got a child but that should really be the priority now so weird it's like almost just call it a genital reveal party yeah I feel like that's not as uh catchy no I think it kind of brings home

what they're actually doing as well yeah um going back to coming out then do you think um there is ever a right time to do it and how did you I guess going back to when you came out as trans when you were 25 to your parents was that right um so that's two years after you came out coming out to your friends so why did you decide then that that was the right time I just felt safe and I felt supported I felt like I knew who I was as a person so um if I was going to be asked loads of really invasive questions I actually had the answers to them I didn't feel like I had to come out because I was being forced to come out and I think that's really what we need to um speak about more uh within society people feeling like they're forced to come out and being forced to disclose their gender identity or their sexuality because it's not really anybody else's business.

It's just part of who you are as a person. So I just wanted to make sure that I knew who I was and that I was supported and I felt safe. In terms of feeling safe, where you do it is quite important yeah I mean if you look at like kind of environment I think coming out in an environment where you feel like um you know you're gonna essentially be asked endless questions that are gonna be detrimental to your mental health that's very different to coming out in a place where you feel supported or you know the answers.

So it really is like a timeline of knowing yourself and knowing that you're going to be supported in the place that you come out. Because for a lot of people, coming out isn't just a one-time thing. For some people, we need to come out over and over and over again. So it really is a matter of are you ready for that um for a lot of trans people we need to come out every time that we're um you know dating somebody and that's why it's so great that you know with tinder as well you can really just be transparent about your identity and be transparent with who you want to date

because it stops the need to come out all the time because someone's searching for you based on who you are and it also stops you know like fetishism as well and breaks down those lines yeah and I think that's actually probably something we should also touch on is is what what to do when you get a transphobic reaction or a homophobic reaction what what do you do in that situation? Because I imagine, you know, obviously you hopefully won't get that when you're talking to your friends and family, but perhaps on a dating app,

maybe if you haven't used those filtration systems that are there, how do you go about that? I would say from experience the best thing to do when you experience somebody like that, and unfortunately, they do exist, is just to block and move on. Because it really does say more about them than it does about you. And don't internalize it. There's people out there that just won't get it with regards to any part of who you are, not just your sexuality. But unfortunately, those people do exist. So just block and move on because there's so many great people out there as well.

And don't let it hinder, you know, enjoying dating because that's really what it's for. It's for enjoying. As someone who is not in the traditional relationship, and I understand you're still using dating apps and still not actively seeking to be with another person, but it's something that you're open to. Yeah, no, I think being in an open relationship is such new territory for a lot of people in terms of being conscious of what that means. And it can take a lot of different forms. But for me, And it can take a lot of different forms. But for me personally, I am dating, but I do have that person that I consider my soulmate. But at the same time, my approach to dating has changed. So there's not, you know, I, I sometimes I really feel like I, I don't feel that pressure to, you know, be with somebody. So it's really taken my dating to a new level where I don't feel like I need to settle when it comes to who I'm going on a date with. And I'm much more conscious of what I deserve and what I actually want to see from a prospective partner or you know just someone I'm getting to know really. And when you're using dating apps because

I understand you're currently working with Tinder, how do you broach the subject with prospective dates that you are in an open relationship at what point do you say that to them? I'm pretty honest from the get-go. And I think what's really amazing with dating apps is that transparency is becoming so much easier. With Tinder, you can now search by orientation, as well as other people. When you're searching by orientation, that's really important because if you're going to be,

you know, getting up a load of people in your results that aren't going to be compatible with your sexual orientation, it becomes quite difficult to narrow down the people that are going to be compatible with you. So for me personally, I don't really like to date men that identify as straight, just because so much of my identity is within the queer realm so um it's great that I can search for other pansexual people or other bisexual people and it just narrows down um you know the pool of people that are going to be compatible with me um and also from a safety perspective um and just like from a mental health perspective, I think that it's really good in terms of that. And pansexuality is something that has been in the media quite a lot lately.

But I think there's quite a lot of misunderstanding about what that actually means. Would you mind explaining to the listeners how you define that? So pansexuality, yes. For me, pansexuality or pansexual is probably the closest to how I see myself. I just see myself as myself. But if I need to put a label on it, then that would be it. It just means that I can find anyone attractive. And I don't feel like I need to date someone by their gender identity.

So I fall in love with people rather than their gender identity so I've had relationships with you know trans women cisgender women cisgender men non-binary people it just means that I just I can find anyone attractive it's so strange isn't it how we find the need to put labels on absolutely everything it's it's a shame as well because I really feel that the more people that just let go of those labels um that they can just discover so much about themselves and it really is a journey and sexuality is just so complex it doesn't really make sense to me to just put boxes rigid boxes in um you know to define who we are as people.

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Peloton. Visit Peloton at onepeloton.ca. And do you think growing up, if you had LGBT role models in the public eye, maybe in mainstream Hollywood films, for example, none really spring to mind. When I was growing up, I'm 25. Do you think if you had these role models to look up to as a teenager, it would have really helped you with your... For sure. Absolutely.

I think representation is really half of the battle because representation doesn't keep us safe, but it does offer a reflection of, you know, choice or, you know, aspiration. I think that if I had seen, you know, either Laverne Cox in Orange is the New Black or Hunter Schaeffer in Euphoria or, you know... It changes people's attitudes. Yeah, it's just so important. just it allows you your you to see yourself reflected in um an aspirational way um and it allows you to process your own feelings

as well and just see them mirrored um i think that that's so key it's it's funny isn't it because i think a lot of people when they grow up um or at least in my generation their first exposure to relationships uh it's probably Disney films which is quite possibly the most problematic I saw a great meme the other day actually of um all of the different characters like straight characters kissing in Disney films and um over there was text over it saying um Disney didn't make me straight so gay relate being exposed to gay relationships won't make anyone gay um it's just that idea isn't it that you know straight has really been the standard for all of us and we're now re-navigating what it means to be queer what it means to not even just identify as queer but just be ourselves without having that pressure

of heteronormativity. It's really everywhere. As soon as you start to open your eyes to it, you realise that even with Disney, you know, in recent years they have, I think, tried to make efforts to sort of reverse what they did initially, you know, like introducing, did they introduce a gay character in Beauty and the Beast

or they kind of alluded to it? I haven't seen it. I it i think but it wasn't it was like a very subtle illusion you need more than yeah it was it was ridiculous because it was like a big story that oh disney has its first gay character and it's like well no no it doesn't it really doesn't i mean there's been like you know scar was very camp yeah in the original Lion King. But like, you know, we need more than alluding to. We need definite, fully fleshed out, padded out queer characters. Who do you think, apart from going away from Disney, who do you think are your role models now? My role models now? Oh, God.

now my role models now oh god I look I look to I really look to like the ancestors of the queer movement um people like Marsha P Johnson there's people that navigated society when it was so homophobic so transphobic and we're going through a real phase of transphobia right now So I get a lot of my strength from people that have fought in similarly turbulent times, more turbulent, but getting my strength from there. So people like Marsha P. Johnson, Sylvia Rivera, who were two key components of the gay liberation movement, they started the stone wall stone wall riots um so that was um a real moment in time that I look to um Octavia Saint Laurent from Paris is Burning if you haven't seen that documentary go watch it um she was just amazing and in I actually thought the other day I was with my friend and I was like we're kind of like living the dream that she had that you know trans women can be involved in the fashion industry in the media and you know using that to destigmatize

what it means to be a transgender woman um so she makes me feel strong because it she really did run so we could walk or walk so we could run on whichever way it is um so yeah just really you know the godfathers and godmothers of the movements that i'm working to bring attention to and i think obviously um for for young people today seeing someone like laverne cox on the cover of british vogue and not just the cover of britishogue but the cover of British Vogue that the Duchess of Sussex has. And the September issue. Yeah exactly like that is a big deal. Oh it's amazing like I sent Laverne a message actually after I saw that and I was like I'm just so proud of you and so proud to live in a time where she exists and just seeing her she gave me so much strength in the early stages of my transition.

And there's really no one like her. So I'm so glad to even speak to her. And finally, I guess I'd want to know what advice you have for someone listening to this who might be questioning their sexual orientation or their gender identity. What advice would you give to them? sexual orientation or their gender identity, what advice would you give to them? I would say firstly, don't feel alone because there's so many people that will be feeling the same way that you feel. Get to know yourself, get to know, you know, who you want to be. Don't just think about, you know, I wrote a letter actually to myself the other,

to my 17 year old self the other day, and I said, think about more than just your escape plan. So coming out, it may be an escape in some way of, you know, feeling alone. But then what then, you know, insofar as being trans or coming out as gay, don't just think about getting away from being enclosed. Think about who are you rather than just that little part of you. Don't let it define you because other people will try to make it define you. In terms of sort of toying around with your sexual orientation, do you think dating apps are a good place to start?

I do think, yeah, I think that dating apps are a great place to start. If you are quite isolated in your sexuality, I don't think that you should ever feel like you can't experiment sexually. I do think that dating apps have become a lot more inclusive, especially Tinder when it comes to being trans and the many different facets of being trans in terms of how you can identify on the app. I think that that's a great place to start, especially as other people can see you for who you are and celebrate that.

But yeah, I think, you know, know what you deserve. Don't put yourself in situations where you're settling for substandard because you want to be coupled there's nothing wrong with being single it's um where you grow as a person I feel so just get out there enjoy yourself dating and experimenting is there for fun you know it doesn't need to be a serious thing it's about getting to know yourself and getting to know other people and enjoying it. I think now it's probably time to move on to our lessons in love segment now this is the part of the podcast where I ask

every guest to bring something that they've learned from their dating and relationships experiences and reflect on it in the episode so my lesson is you can't see red flags with rose-tinted glasses on and by that I mean if you're going into a date with rose-tinted glasses on so you're just dating people because you don't want to be single then the likelihood is that you're not going to be seeing the red flags of incompatibility. So I think go into dating because you are ready, not because you feel the need to be coupled. And, you know, society has just this idea that we should all be, you know, with somebody. And I think you shouldn't really be with somebody if you are ready and if that person is right for you what red flags do you think you

might have missed in the past I think largely with my dating life of dating men um I think again with Disney the idea that I should be with a guy and I really prioritised dating men to dating other genders, largely cisgender men. And I just think I really wanted, I really wanted a boyfriend. And that just made me put up with so much more than I should have in terms of, you know, allowing guys to dictate how I looked or just then put on me what they wanted out of a woman and allowing them to dictate my womanhood and what kind of woman I should be rather than encouraging me to be myself. rather than encouraging me to be myself. So, yeah, that didn't really make me very happy as a person.

So I think red flags can be anything, but largely a red flag is the opposite of what you deserve. Yeah, it's someone not treating you right. I think we can all relate to that. You know, it really does set the standard for, like, you know, not the best relationship. So, yeah, I've I've ignored a lot of red flags in my time do you think the way we overcome ignoring the red flags is just through experience yeah I think take the roast into glasses off and just enjoy life as it is

rather than feeling like I'm going on a date because it's time that I had a boyfriend I'm going on a date because I'm lonely you know it's it's really important to just be on a date because it's time that I had a boyfriend. I'm going on a date because I'm lonely. You know, it's really important to just be on a good page with yourself. And then it's an even better experience when you find somebody who's a complement to that. Because we all want to be with someone who makes us better. But you want to make that other person better too. So, you know, relationships are a partnership where both people benefit. you know, relationships are a partnership where both people benefit. And if you're only, you know, going into a situation and hoping that they're going to make you better, or they're hoping that you're going to make them better, then it's not really fair. So take them off and just enjoy.

Enjoy it. That's all we have time for this week on Millennial Love. Follow Independent Lifestyle on social media to keep up to date with what's coming up on the show. And if you're a new listener, remember to subscribe to this series on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Acast or wherever you listen. Also, leave us a rating and comment with your thoughts on our conversation today. Until next time, thanks a lot for listening. Goodbye. for listening. Goodbye. to keep knocking down your goals. No pressure to be who you're not. Just workouts and classes to strengthen who you are.

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