Love Lives - Otegha Uwagba on how Instagram fuels self-doubt more than a catwalk

Episode Date: April 18, 2024

This week, we’re joined by Sunday Times bestselling author Otegha Uwagba to discuss how she left the systemic racism and misogyny of the corporate world to pursue a career in writing.We discuss everything from the paralysis of writer’s block, to how doom-scrolling on social media impacts body image.We also discuss all things fashion, the problem with Saltburn, and if 17 minutes is an appropriate length for a voicenote.Catch Love Lives on Independent TV and YouTube, as well as all major social and podcast platforms.Support this show http://supporter.acast.com/millenniallove. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This episode is brought to you by Google Pixel. I'm Jessi Cruikshank. I host the number one comedy podcast called Phone a Friend. I also have three kids. I need help making every day easier. So I switched to Google Pixel. It's a phone powered by Gemini, your personal AI assistant. Gemini can help you summarize your unread emails,

suggest what to make with the food in your fridge, and it helped me achieve a family photo where everyone is smiling at the camera. I didn't think it was possible, but it is with Google Pixel 9. Learn more at store.google.com. Hello and welcome to Love Lives, a podcast from The Independent where I, Olivia Petter, chat to different guests about the different loves of their lives. Today I am delighted to be joined by journalist, broadcaster and best-selling author Itego Wagba. Thank you for having me. Welcome to you. Thank you for

welcoming me. Yes, to your own podcast. No one's ever welcomed me to my own podcast before, it's very nice. You've had such an incredibly impressive career trajectory and you started at a really young age. I want to ask you a bit about writing specifically and what drew you to it because I know that you worked in advertising for a bit initially. So did you always want to be a writer and what was it that drew you to advertising kind of temporarily in between? I've always enjoyed, you know, writing and or certainly more so than a lot of other people I know and I don't think I really realized it was unusual so I remember once like a couple of years back when a friend had to write something up for work and she was like oh my god I hate

writing and I was like oh okay I just assumed that everyone felt like that um so as a kid and like a teenager I would do sort of I mean I wrote like some terribly cringy poems but I also would write like short stories and did a lot of like student journalism like uni and stuff um but I don't think it occurred to me read I thought I would like one day like to write a novel but it didn't occur to me that like I could have a career as a writer and so when I graduated in 2011 so into a recession I was about I mean all I know is recessions but you know that was 2011 quite a bad one um I was just like okay well I need to get a proper solid job something quite corporate that's kind of what everyone around me seemed to be doing I kind of almost sort of discovered that advertising jobs exist and then I made it

my mission to get an ad agency job and you had quite an interesting experience in the ad agency world that's a very tactful way of saying I hated it um so yeah I worked in advertising for about five years, always agency side. I worked at some pretty major ad agencies and I just never really found my stride. Like I didn't really understand like the culture of ad agencies and what I did understand of it. I didn't like it. It was also, I mean, this is pre-Me Too, pre-Black Lives Matter. So we're talking 2012 kind of onwards.

And so they were just very toxic you know misogynistic gendered racist environments which I don't know how different it is now I'm sure they've improved and I've heard they've improved I think there are still some dynamics in that industry that you know kind of remain the same. And was that experience part of what led you to writing the first book Little Black Book which you self-published? So I, so my last job was sort of the worst one. I worked at a media company that I think is now bankrupt. And yeah, as so many are. And I sort of started trying to kind of find my way

into journalism, like, you know, begging for meetings with editors and trying to pitch stuff. So I decided to like write this um I guess handbook full of career advice which is a fairly precocious thing to do at the age of 25 but I think it was very much geared towards people at my level and below and based on a lot of it is based on mistakes I've made it wasn't like oh this is how I did it was like this is what I did wrong and now you can learn from that mistake but also for the fact that I think I had gone quite far for my age within advertising anyway and I'd learned a lot and so I put just like all the stuff that I knew into that book and you know self-funded the print

one of like 200 copies like I was like running back and forth on my lunch break from this freelance job to like the printers because it was all in Shoreditch um and then sort of miraculously I do think um when I launched it this book sold out in like two days like 200 200 copies in two days. So you've been in the industry for a while since then. You've done a few more books. You've done a few more bits of writing and journalism. How has your view of writing as a career and all that encompasses changed since you first entered this kind of sector?

I think when I entered it, I was very very much thinking I'm going to do journalism forever and I mean to be honest I didn't think I was going to write a second or even a third book I was like I'm lucky to have gotten this one book deal and that's just a cool thing I'm going to use it you know to kind of leverage into other opportunities it was quite a surprise to me that I had an idea for another book another book um and it was probably only kind of midway through writing the second one which counter which actually came out third but it was midway through that and I was like okay maybe I will be doing books you know as a thing in the future like sort of on an ongoing basis um but I think more recently I mean it's been I've been thinking about it for the past few years, but I've only really started making more concerted efforts to transition into it, like TV writing and fiction writing.

I realised a couple of years ago, I'm somebody that gets bored quite easily. And I feel increasingly like I've kind of squeezed out as much as I want personally from kind of more nonfiction writing and nonfiction books and journalism. And so I'm sort of transitioning. It's not that I'm not going to do it at all. In fact, actually, I have just filed a couple of pieces all this month, which is more than I've written in years, actually. So when I find a topic really interesting, I will still want to write about it. And I feel fortunate that I kind of have good relationships with editors and I can just kind of pitch stuff. But I am, I think you just need to kind of keep evolving and changing, keep challenging yourself. And, you know, I'm working on a novel at the moment and it started out as a nonfiction idea years ago, like literally five years ago and I think when it came to me actually having space and time to explore it I was like I don't want to just do the same process as what I've just done which is researching a topic

writing all my opinions on it which you know I was like I want to try a different way of saying what I want to say and that's how it became a novel. Yeah it's really fun isn't it I mean like I'm doing the same like trying to transition from kind of nonfiction into the fictional space. And it's such a different way of thinking and conveying your thoughts and conveying your opinions. And I feel like, I don't know if you feel this way, but to me, it feels like some of the things

that I have wanted to express in nonfiction, I actually think can only really be expressed in a fictional space some of the things that I have wanted to express in non-fiction I actually think can only really be expressed in a fictional space because of the nuance required to convey the complexity of what it is I'm trying to say I feel like it just gives me a bit more freedom yeah because sometimes I have theories but I don't necessarily have data to back them up and I think I'm somebody who, in my nonfiction, I am very rigorous about having things kind of backed up and substantiated. And there are some topics and themes where I'm like,

I'm just going vibes, you know? So that is, yeah, I mean, it's a steep learning curve. I think I'm very confident in my abilities as a writer, nonfiction-wise. And this is something that I need to like master in terms of the fiction space I need to get better at um or that's how I feel about it certainly but that's kind of why I'm pursuing it like it is very much with a view to wanting to challenge myself and wanting to kind of flex different muscles and kind of build out my remit seems like

an overly formal word but like portfolio as a writer and be able to do lots of different types of writing that fundamentally is just the same thing which is writing and communicating to people what's your relationship like with social media now because you've got a pretty significant following on twitter slash x i can't bear to call it x twitter slash x and instagram when i'm on it i've been d i mean i deactivated my twitter account at the end of last year i then reactivated it because i think i needed someone's contact details and haven't gotten around to it but i'm very much transitioning off twitter um because pretty much i mean are you still on it like i feel like everyone's left yeah everyone's left like lots of people who i used to enjoy kind of seeing their opinions or

communicating with them there have like fully left so it's not as fun anymore um and i think this kind of happened kind of 2021 onwards when it just got so febrile after or during the pandemic um and i like a real twitter addict both or both in terms of tweeting and terms of being on it and I think it was a mixture of like this isn't fun anymore and also this is real time stuff and I get absolutely nothing out of it beyond just those hours of my life I'm never gonna get back so I am I think it's a shame that it has become what it has I mean yeah the reason I'm kind of easing off it is just because the experience of being on there isn't the same um if everybody was still on

it and if Elon Musk hadn't bought it and ruined it I'd still be I'd probably be on Twitter right now you know so um I I think for me my relationship with social media is just that it's a big time suck and for instance when I'm like really seriously on deadlines like for books and stuff I've been known to you know give my password to friends to lock me out um for Instagram for Twitter I'm not as I'm not that addicted to Instagram really yeah it was Twitter how are you not that addicted to Instagram I would love to because I am pretty addicted to Instagram um how do you manage that I don't find I just don't find it as interesting as Twitter because I'm not finding out as much new information um obviously it is I think now people are moving on to Instagram to kind of

communicate the same things they would have on Twitter but uh I think for the longest time and maybe it's down to you know who and I follow, but it's much more about visual inspiration there, which is nice, but can, you know, I don't, I'm not in the mood for that all the time. So, yeah, I just don't find it as like sticky, as like addictive as Twitter, which really kind of activates my lizard brain and I want to be on it all the time. Oh God, I'm so jealous. I feel like Instagram activates my lizard brain and I can't, I have to delete it from my phone so that I don't look at it when I'm trying to like write or something and then I end up going back to my computer because I'm so addicted and I'm like what are you doing spending all this time looking at inane stuff from people that you don't even really care about it's just and then I think the most wild thing to me is is checking who's seen your stories yeah who gives a shit or watching your own stories back.

Oh, yeah. You sometimes see people doing that on the tube and you're like, oh, do you know? Yeah, I've seen people like looking at their own profiles before. Well, people have probably seen me doing that. Yeah, they've probably seen me do it too. The profile I look at the most on Instagram is probably my own.

But then like, why do we do that? What are we looking for? I think when I do that, and I think probably when most people do that you are taking a moment to kind of evaluate how you appear to the outside world so you're like oh when somebody lands on my page how do I come across what do they see what do they think and I think we're constantly checking in with that or at least that's I think how I feel when I'm doing it um but it's I mean it it panders to our absolute worst impulses all of social media um and I long for the day where I fully divest from it all together I think that for me is the

ultimate goal but um I'm still a way away from doing that same um you went to Oxford I have to ask you about Saltburn because I've seen you posting. I do because I just love the way you think and I love your brain and so I'm just fascinated to know what you think of the film because I know you didn't like it. I thought it was the worst movie I've ever seen and I that sounds like hyperbole but I can't think of another movie I've seen that's worse than Salt Burn. Okay what what riles you up about it? What did you not like about it? It was confusing. It made no sense whatsoever to the point where, I mean, I did, I went to watch it in the cinema

and I did sort of doze off for large, not large chunks, but I was kind of in and out for a lot of the first two thirds, I would say. Well, I just wasn't gripped by it. I was very sleepy, which I don't think is a good sign for a movie um but I do think I was following along and there were just significant plot holes the characterization makes no sense the motivation makes no sense um you know a friend and I were talking about it and described it as it's as though, you know, the producers of that movie, the makers of that movie kind of envisioned this scene that is Barry Keoghan

dancing around to Murder on the Dance Floor in a castle. And they thought, that's going to be so cool. Let's reverse engineer an entire movie to allow that scene to happen. But then it doesn't, it's so tonally at odds. Like I quite enjoyed that scene, you know know as I think a lot of women did um but it's not just because but but also it doesn't it's tonally at odds with the rest of the movie so I'm like the movie hadn't earned that payoff um it just was confusing the responses to everything that happened in the movie from the characters made no sense to me I mean I think I can talk about it openly because it's been out for a while

now but for instance when Jacob Lordy's character Felix drives Oliver quick um the so-called scholarship boy to you know six hours wherever to his parents home and it turns out that he has been lying about his background that for me is friendship done that's friendship over that person is not coming back into my car into my life into my house i'm not throwing a party for them i'm like you're a freak you've been lying and he lied about his like like such big lies such big lies his mother died what's that fucking weird lies can i swear on this podcast yeah weird fucking lies that's not somebody that i'd be friends with sociopathic sociopathic lies right yeah and also the character of oliver wasn't in any way charming or compelling enough for me to believe that all of these people are falling under

his spell like from felix to like a mother play i thought rosamund pike um played yeah quite well and i really liked what we saw of Carrie Mulligan, but then she dies off screen. So I'm like, okay, well, that was a great little cameo. I was like, it's just not plausible. But funnily enough, I think it was well acted. I thought all the actors in it were really great. They did well with the material they were given,

but it just made no sense. And then the kind of twist reveals towards the end of the movie that it's like he planned it all along he's a crazy and i was like well yeah that's kind of what i assumed like the setup right from the start from the opening scene you're like this guy has a secret and is a bit of a weirdo yeah if you've seen talented mr ripley or yeah like you kind of know where it's going so i was like this isn't a twist that he like you know engineered all these deaths and whatever I'm like well that's what I was like oh well we're not supposed to think that he had killed Felix because that's exactly what I thought happened as soon as I figured out that Felix was

dead because even that was confusing I had to lean over to my friend and say is he dead and before we move on to talk about the loves of your life um can you share with us what you are working on at the moment so at the moment? So at the moment, I've written a couple of features which are going to be dropping, I think, certainly by the time this is aired. I interviewed Issa Rae for a cover, which is, again, coming out very soon. Again, she's somebody that I'm just obsessed with. I love her work. And I just think she's so smart, so funny, and just everything she's written.

So I was really excited about that. And I interviewed Fran Leibowitz about fashion. Awesome. Which was a really, really fun conversation. That's why I called her up, you know, down that crackly old line in New York. And yeah, we had a good old chat about fashion and then just lots of other

stuff as well about politics and the election and yeah she's great fun to chat to the she soars podcast is an absolute must for conversations about sexual and reproductive health and rights we are a group of passionate young women from across Canada who are exploring global issues that affect girls' lives and choices and how they relate to Canadian youth. Tune in to Season 3 of the She Soars podcast for more hot topics and inspiring speakers from around the world and discover ways we can all take action.

Her rights, her voice. Listen now, wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, it's Mitch from SideNote Podcast, and I'm here to tell you about the new Google Pixel 9 powered by Gemini. Anyone who knows me knows the Pixel has always been my favorite out of all the phones I've ever had. Now, with Gemini built in, it's basically my personal AI assistant. Since I'm truly terrible at keeping up with emails, I use Gemini to give me summaries of my inbox, which is a lifesaver. And if I'm feeling stuck creatively, I just ask Gemini for help and bam, instant inspiration. You can learn more about Google Pixel 9 at store.google.com. Well, that leads us in perfectly to the first love of your life which you have chosen which is fashion

and clothes as I mentioned in the intro you are one of my favorite dresses that I follow on Instagram so have you always loved fashion have you always loved clothes how would you describe your style and your relationship yeah I've always loved clothes I've always loved clothes it's always been really important to me what I'm wearing um I remember like I can I can literally remember I think I must have been about seven years old and it was own clothes day at school and I found that out I don't know I found it out like maybe the night before um or the afternoon before and I told my mum and I have no idea and I was like I don't have anything to wear which is an absurd thing for seven-year-olds so I don't know how she found the time

because I literally can't remember us like you know it's like she picked me up from school and then but somehow she magicked up this like 101 Dalmatians matching top and leg and it's just like it was the coolest you know I felt the way I walked into school the next day like I have got it but you know so she has always so her father was um a tailor um and so he used to make like clothes and like custom clothes for like um lots of people this is in Cameroon and so she grew up she knows how to sew really well she grew up making a lot of her own clothes which to be fair is also just what generally happened back in like the 70s like you have like a pattern and then you take it to a tailor and that sort of thing um so she's really

really into style and fashion I think I've definitely inherited that love from her and also that belief that what you wear communicates something about you to the outside world and that it's a really useful and powerful tool and often like a shorthand but also it's just something to be enjoyed and to have fun with um and so yeah I've always loved fashion it's like my biggest expenditure probably yeah I mean mine too um I'm interested then was there never a part of you as a kid that wanted to work in fashion or be a fashion writer specifically and just do that? No, that's so interesting. No, do you know what? When I was younger, I used, I remember I used to

have, I used to sketch, like have, I had this like silhouette of like a women's figure and I used to sketch different clothes. I wish I'd kept them, not because I think they're any good, but just because I'd love to see what they look like now um and I would trace it out and sketch and me and my sister used to do that so I think at that age but this is like 10 or like you know single digits thinking oh my god I'm gonna be a fashion designer when I grow up um but I think by the time I kind of hit my teenage years and onwards I was like I'm probably gonna do I mean do something more I guess conventional or more serious or, you know, also it's just, yeah, Korean fashion. And then also, I think by the time I graduated, you know, when I graduated, the fashion industry was kind of at its worst in terms of this just unpaid internships and people being treated like shit.

So it didn't really appeal to me like working in it yeah um so I've always kind of been I think I do more fashion work now almost just kind of through some of my journalism and I kind of end up falling in with I guess fashion brands um so I kind of can explore I always refer to myself as um fashion industry adjacent or like I'm a fashion hobbyist so it's something that I kind of sometimes kind of you know maneuver into my work but for the most part it's just something that I just enjoy and if certain opportunities or invitations open to me then I'm happy to take them up. And as someone who goes to the shows and goes to fashion week what do you make of that kind of whole experience in this kind of modern iteration now?

I mean, I'm asking that because I'm someone who has gone to the shows for years as well for work. And I remember the first time I went to a fashion show, I was so shocked by how thin the models were. And I remember being so struck by that. And the thing that I think shocks me now more is how desensitized I am to that I think I'm pretty desensitized to it and that's what kind of concerns me I've only I've only once um I'm trying to remember I think it was a couple of seasons ago where I remember saying to an editor outside of show I was like I was like every all the clothes I've seen this season just seem to accentuate skinniness it was that kind of YTK trend and I was just like it makes me feel uncomfortable it makes like that I think was a couple of years ago now maybe sort of 18 months ago and that was a time where I felt like my god

they're really I'm sure the models have probably always been that skinny but it was like wow they're really showing it off in terms of the designers and the clothes they're making um and yeah I mean I think like anyone else I think without wanting to kind of criticize an individual body type um I think it's just quite sad and I think the older I get and the funnily enough kind of less I care how do I frame this because I think I'm quite aware that I'm somebody who's I guess considered straight size so I'm like slim um but the less kind of stock I hold and being slim or skinny the more disturbed I am by the fashion industry's relentless focus on that so I think probably when I was younger, in my teens and 20s, it was more a point of pride to me that my body is the size that it is. Yeah. And now, A, it's, you know, changing because that's what happened as you get, you know,

older, especially as a woman. The hormones hit, like, turn 30 and it's like, oh, my body is really changing. I think essentially what I'm trying to say is that was the past few years of the first time I've ever really experienced any kind of major body insecurity of my body changing. And it's made me realize how toxic the messages and narratives we get are as women. Yeah, I think that's what's interesting about it is that you go to the shows and it's impossible not to project your own feelings about the way you look in your body when you are constantly watching these like teeny tiny models or even just scrolling through instagram i think i think i get it more i think because models on a catwalk to me are so far away from anything that to me that resembles real life i don't actually that isn't necessarily what makes me question my own

body it's more like what you see on instagram and it's like ordinary people I'm like oh well you know that's like look look at her thighs look at her abs whatever like I want that and like what do I need to do to get that and fundamentally I've also realized I just can't be bothered like that is the answer but I think once I accepted that and I was like I became more comfortable I want to ask you about your second love, which is voice notes. So tell me what it is you like about voice notes and how long in your mind is the perfect voice note? Because there's a lot of debate around how long. I'd say about 90 seconds.

Really? Yeah. And in that 90 seconds, it's you delivering like a nice juicy bit of gossip, like a nice nugget. Like whether receiving or sending. seconds it's you delivering like a nice juicy bit of gossip like a nice nugget like whether receiving or sending I would say because then 90 seconds or just telling any kind of story that means you haven't given enough detail that the recipient doesn't then have like sort of questions follow-up questions so then it becomes like a nice kind of back and forth um and I you

know I find that quite fun but any shorter than that I think you don't really as the listener you can't really get stuck in and longer than that sometimes I don't have time to listen to this now you've always got 90 seconds but you might not have 10 minutes say and I have been known to leave 10 I think the longest voice that I've received is probably about 17 minutes 17 yeah that's a podcast yeah that's what we call them like friends friends I mean I think that was also during the pandemic as well. Yeah, I couldn't find. But we'd be like, oh, podcast. And I would literally like sit down, like make,

I'd be like, I'll save this for like half an hour, make a cup of tea and then just sit down and listen to it. How do you even respond to something like that though? Because when I get friends that send me voices. Sometimes I make notes. Yeah, yeah, I make notes. I have to make notes. Yeah, sometimes I make notes.

So I know what to respond to. Yeah. And I think the thing is that they allow you, it's like you don't necessarily both have to be free for a phone call at the same time, which I think is obviously increasingly harder to do for various reasons. And so I do like that aspect of flexibility

and it's like a whole conversation and story can kind of go back and forth and they're just, you know, quite funny. But also I find them quite a nice way of fostering kind of intimacy I think whether it's with friends or like you know romantically I think moving to be honest I move things to voice note very quickly like even with people I don't know because also I find it quite efficient so I might be messaging somebody on Instagram about something maybe even just kind of quite worky and if it's someone that I kind of know and I'm friendly with I'd be like hey I hope you don't mind a voice note but here are the answers you

know that sort of thing um because it's just quicker so they are also efficient for me but um yeah I just love a good voice note yeah and I know what you mean there is an intimacy about a voice note that I think is sometimes even more intimate than a phone call because you have time to listen to that person's voice alone and really take in what they're saying and think about how you're going to respond as opposed to kind of responding off the cuff on the phone and I think when you are sharing voice notes with someone you've just started dating it can be quite an exciting way to get to know someone and get to know the tenor of their voice and how they think yeah definitely also I feel like if somebody's voice isn't good

I'm like I don't think this is gonna go anywhere yeah I know I like that I mean I don't like voice notes on hinge or like on dating apps because I feel like they're just generic voice and they're not voice notes that are not sent to me I don't I so I'm not on the app so I didn't know you can you can do that I sound like such an old fuddy-duddy so you could so what people have people have voice like voice messages on their profile right but they're quite weird it will be like someone describing their typical sunday or someone describing a joke and i don't know there's something really generic and kind of gross about that because it's just like a rehashed thing that loads of people are obviously listening to

whereas i think when you start talking to someone sending a voice note quite early on can seem like quite a jarring thing but I think it's also like a good I think test for men it's like well how kind of confident are you or how like intimidated yeah by this are you and I think I have used that as a way of like weeding out or where it's like okay can you just you know I'll be like tell me a story or tell me something interesting like yeah whatever and if somebody can kind of be like yeah hey like it kind of makes me think okay this is somebody who's kind of comfortable in themselves but if somebody's like umming and ahhing but like oh my god I don't know what to say I find that such a turn off I'm just like think of something don't go on the apps they're rubbish I hate yeah good

decision um okay third love is having written as opposed to writing totally understand what you mean by that but to those of us who are not writers and art might be listening explain why it is that you prefer the act of having written as opposed to actually writing yeah um so obviously overall I like writing because I have made it my career and worked very hard to do so it's not an easy career to you know make work so I do obviously love writing but I see whenever I'm working on anything so it's not an easy career to you know make work so I do obviously love writing but I see whenever I'm working on anything whether it's you know short form long firm long form it's like a mountain and that like uphill bit of it or that like let's say getting the first draft

down is like pushing a boulder uphill sometimes not all the time actually um but sometimes it can really feel like that um and it's when that kind of first draft is there and I'm kind of going through editing tweaking changing things that's when it feels like I'm on a bicycle sailing downhill so I've just switched analogies there but we're gonna we're gonna go with it and that kind of feels fun and interesting and like that's the bit I like but sometimes I think basically what I don't like is first drafts. Those are just like brutal. But then every draft after that is kind of like fun and interesting. And like you have like the framework of something to tweak.

But sometimes like getting things down, like from your head onto paper, is just feels like pulling nails. so that's why I say I prefer having written um and obviously the best bit is when you're just like moving a few full stops around and it's just like oh this and like you're happy with what you've written and it feels complete and that's such a satisfying feeling because then it's just about okay pushing this out in whatever form whether it was a book or or an article and engaging with the responses to it. And that is obviously if you feel satisfied with what you've written. So that, I think, is kind of the sweet spot.

But yeah, the first draft for me is always horrible. But I find it really reassuring because so many writers, I admire yourself included, feel that way. reassuring because so many writers I admire yourself included feel that way so like I was listening to Greta Gerwig talking about when she first starts writing a script for something and she's like you just hate it and you think why am I doing this you can't write you're terrible this is going to be awful they're going to hate you what are you doing and it's like I think it's because I don't know if you write this way but for me it's like I work out what it is I'm trying to say as I'm saying it so initially for, the first idea that comes down on the page is probably quite basic and probably quite simple.

So basic. And I'm like, if somebody read... Yeah. Like, you know, sometimes somebody, like an editor or a producer, they'll be like, oh, just send me the trash draft. I'm like, I can't send you this because you will start to question like the web of lies I've built my entire career on because the like trash like vomit draft is so bad yeah and so I because and I think some people their kind of first you

know pass is more polished but mine isn't it's like the sentence stops halfway there and I use really basic words and then I kind of go over and go over it so I that's another thing I don't share like early drafts of my work with anyone because I'm like this is just rubbish and I'd feel embarrassed to share this um so yeah that that phase of writing is difficult you just have to push through and then it gets so good is there um are there certain subjects that you prefer writing about than others and certain subjects that you hate writing about? Oh that's a good question. I think I just don't want to write about the same thing forever and ever um so I definitely sense that you know like let's say my last couple of books have been about

the first one was about careers, second one was about race. The third one was about money. And I kind of hit a limit in terms of finding it interesting to write about that. So funnily enough, your book will come out and then lots of editors, you know, newspapers, magazines will want to write about that. And like still years on, people be like, oh, could you write something else about careers? And I'm like, I'm done with that topic. Like I've said everything I have to say about it and I'm not somebody who just kind of likes repeating themselves or rehashing it and I think that can be a very comfortable place to be but

if I'm bored of it I'm just like that's the worst to write something that you now feel bored by and you've said that so I think things I hate writing about are things that I've written about already a lot and then I'm like I can't do this anymore yeah I know what you mean because then I think you find yourself just repeating the same ideas yeah and I'm like well I've already phrased it perfectly the first time round so there's no point in me rehashing like the same words into a different format so I yeah I find that I tend to kind of hit a ceiling um for any specific topic and for instance let's say with my money book for instance it's a topic I'm thinking about for years um and then you know pitch the proposal research it write it and then it comes out do you press do you promo let's say that process is about five years I'm like I'm done

talking I've spent five years thinking and talking about this subject it's not that I'm not still interested in it in a more kind of passive way but I don't this subject it's not that I'm not still interested in it in a more kind of passive way but I don't necessarily want that to be what I'm working on day to day like I want to move on to new things and I always find it fascinating when I see other writers who like have lifelong careers or certainly have written and focused on a certain topic for much longer than five years because I'm like how do you not get bored like I find that really interesting um but for me that isn't the case yeah no me neither and I think it's also it's just exciting because then you're kind of constantly challenging your brain and challenging yourself to think about new subjects and enter into a new territory and you

know like you've just done with your fashion newsletter that I mentioned at the start which is now every month so yes so it's a monthly it's a monthly newsletter called add to wish list um and it's basically sort of me kind of picking things that I have bought want to buy just like fashion picks essentially but also my thoughts on style and dressing and fashion and shopping and you know my approach to it. So it might be how I approach like bargain hunting. So I'm like, I'm somebody who likes nice clothes. I like designer clothes, but it's like I can't buy everything full price. It's like, where am I looking to get a bargain?

Like, these are the websites you might have heard of. Here are some deals I found for you. Like, here are some strategies. For instance, I don't shop during the sales because I find that quite stressful like high pressurized time to buy clothes and I find that in years gone by I would just make mistakes um so just yeah different ways of thinking about like what you wear and what it says about you and the importance of clothes so I'll usually kind of have like an introduction of like a thousand words and then it gets into just like links of like and pictures of things I think are beautiful and the odd bit of

interior stuff but yeah it's just you know it's just I wanted somewhere to talk about all that stuff that wasn't Instagram because I think if you do that on Instagram sometimes it can feel there's just so much fashion content on Instagram I think already and it can feel, there's just so much fashion content on Instagram, I think already. And it can feel a little bit like influencery, I think, because people are so used to seeing brand recommendations in the context of them kind of being a bit of a plug or kind of like begging for a freebie kind of thing. I was like, I want to make it clear that the stuff I'm recommending is stuff that I genuinely like. And I feel like for whatever reason, people just don't trust that as much on Instagram um not that I have a problem with you

know that kind of format but I just felt like if I'm going to be doing this constantly I don't want it to just be me like tagging like a million brands being like I like this I like this I like this I think people interpret that in quite a negative way and so having a newsletter kind of just makes it feel a bit more solid that's it for today thank you so much for listening and if you are a fan of love lives you can catch us on all major podcast platforms you can also watch us on independent tv follow us on instagram at love lives and i will see you next time thank you Thank you. Bye. This episode is brought to you by Google Pixel.

I'm Jessi Cruikshank. I host the number one comedy podcast called Phone a Friend. I also have three kids. I need help making every day easier. So I switched to Google Pixel. It's a phone powered by Gemini, your personal AI assistant. Gemini can help you summarize your unread emails, suggest what to make with the food in your fridge, and it helped me achieve a family photo where everyone is smiling at the camera. I didn't think it was possible, but it is with Google Pixel 9.

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