Love Lives - Rebecca Humphries on emotional abuse, toxic love and her night out with a disappearing softboi

Episode Date: July 14, 2022

This week, we're joined by the brilliant author and actor Rebecca Humphries to discuss her memoir, Why Did You Stay? A memoir about self-worth. The book details what happened after Rebecca's boyfriend was caught kissing his Strictly Come Dancing partner and how she later reclaimed the narrative, posting a powerful statement about gaslighting on social media that swiftly went viral. In this episode, Rebecca talks about how she found her voice, why emotional abuse is so complicated, and the truth about men who call women 'mental'. We also discuss love bombing, female rage, and Rebecca's night out with a disappearing softboi. Enjoy the show but please bear in mind that some of the themes of this week's episode some may find upsetting.You can also watch this episode on Independent TV: https://www.independent.co.uk/tv/lifestyle/rebecca-humphries-gaslighting-love-b2124176.htmlIf you've been affected by any of the issues discussed in this podcast, you can find support at www.womensaid.org.ukCheck out Millennial Love on all major podcast platforms and Independent TV, and keep up to date @Millennial_Love on Instagram and TikTok.Support this show http://supporter.acast.com/millenniallove. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Acast powers the world's best podcasts. Here's a show that we recommend. will not die hosting the Hills after show. I get thirsty for the hot wiggle. I didn't even know a thirsty man until there was all these headlines. And I get schooled by a tween. Facebook is like, and now that's what my grandma's on. Thank God phone a friend with Jesse Crookshank is not available on Facebook. It's out now wherever you get your podcasts. Acast helps creators launch, grow, and monetize their podcasts everywhere. Acast helps creators launch, grow and monetize their podcasts everywhere. Acast.com Hello and welcome to Millennial Love, a podcast from The Independent all about love, sexuality, identity and more.

This week I am so excited to be here with actor and author Rebecca Humphries. We are going to talk about her brilliant memoir Why Did You Stay? I could explain what it's about but to be honest doing that in a 30 second introduction is not going to do it justice and I think you need to really understand the nuance of what happened by simply reading Rebecca's book and listening to this lovely conversation. We are going to talk about narcissism, emotional abuse, toxic love, self-worth and all of these brilliant subjects that Rebecca covers so eloquently in her book. So I hope you enjoy the show.

Hello, how are you? Hello. It's so nice to be here. I'm so happy you're here. I'm so happy you? Hello. It's so nice to be here. I'm so happy you're here. I'm so happy you're here. Like I said in the introduction, it's kind of hard to know where to start because your story is so inspiring and you write about it so brilliantly and with so much intelligence and eloquence in the book.

And I think given the circumstances of what happened it might seem on the surface like quite an unrelatable experience but I was surprised to find that when I read the book I identified with so much that you wrote about because you write about you know much more than just what happened the story that most people know about and so I think it would be great to start off by just hearing from you for those who aren't familiar with your story what happened that led you to writing this book? Okay well first thank you you're welcome very much. Okay so the book kind of takes as its launch pad this moment in 2018 that happened to me which was that three days after my 32nd birthday,

I was standing in the car park at Strictly Come Dancing, where my boyfriend at the time was competing. He was one of the celebrities. And we were at this VIP party afterwards. And he took me to one side and said to me that the son had got pictures of him and his dance partner kissing. and said to me that the son had got pictures of him and his dance partner kissing. And not only that, they were taken on my birthday when I was at home alone three days before. And that evening also when I had called him up to say, I don't think that this is appropriate, that you're out. And I was in a place where I wasn't quite sure what normal meant anymore. And we'll come on to that just because of the dynamic of the relationship. And when I had expressed that to him, he called me a psychopath. And suddenly there I am three days later in this car park going, oh, I've just had

my sanity handed back to me. In fact, it never went away. I always had it, but I was just super prepared to prioritize his version of events over my own and just not respect my own intuition in that. And suddenly I just was flooded with this kind of power and real and true empowerment in that moment being like, not only am I not crazy, I was right. was right and from that moment onwards that's kind of when my life really started because that's when I started unpacking you know what it is that we women and it's not just a book about women but so much of this narrative is about being a woman and how we're conditioned for codependency and how all of the narratives that I've been watching since I was about what four have been about chucking bits of myself out of the window in order to keep a relationship alive even at cost to myself and how did it feel

writing all of it down in the book I mean was it a cathartic experience for you was it triggering revisiting some of the things that happened in the run-up to that Strictly incident? I mean, no, because part of that self-respect, I suppose, and self-worth that I gained after the relationship and going to loads of therapy and, you know, just working through all my trauma, I absolutely needed to make sure that when I embarked on this book, then it wasn't some kind of like vile revenge's tragedy. And I definitely didn't want my book seeping with resentment, you know, don't want anyone to get their hands dirty by holding it. And also resentment and like blame and judgment and attack at anyone else. It's just a poison that you swallow yourself. So I got my catharsis out

of the way. And then I wrote the the book and you also put out this brilliant statement before you wrote the book which we will get to because I want to talk about the things that you said in that um but let's go back to the start of your relationship with him because I think it's really important people to understand how emotional abuse begins in a relationship and how it's often there's a pattern and I think you know when you write about the beginning of the relationship you talk about how it all happened very very quickly and within three weeks you were living together within three months you bought a place together and you know now a lot of people would describe that as love bombing but

again I think that's one of those phrases that gets kind of bandied around all the time that people don't really know what it means. Yes, it gets watered down. Exactly. So could you describe how that kind of manifested at the time? And at that time, you know, was there anything in your head that thought, oh, maybe this is a bit, you know, questionable? Or do you just get, you just get swept up in it all? I mean, what is it that we're always taught that romance is supposed to knock you off your feet and like suddenly your your brain has no place within that narrative it's just I've ingested it my whole life this idea that actually you can't think about these things

and maybe your better judgment is just getting in the way of being swept off your feet. And that's exactly what happened. And P.S., I mean, yeah, there were like weekends away and we were getting on planes and we were going to Berlin and Ireland and just all these amazing places. And we'd moved in by three weeks and we had a mortgage on a house together by three months. And here's the twist. I was ready for it like I was suddenly it felt as though I had been given everything that I was ever promised that other women seem to have had all of this time but never me and then when it happened to me of course I was just ready to run after it and yeah suddenly this relationship just started evolving and I mean I speak about it at the end of the book there's this um there's a quote that I talk about from psychology today

about uh narcissistic behavior and it has so much to do with a narcissist will rush you into a relationship to kind of feed their own sense of achievement for having won you and I mean how do we not know this stuff I know and then I think what often happens as well is once they have won you so to speak it obviously gives them that element of control over you and then what tends to happen is either you know they sort of put you to one side and the relationship ends. Or what happens, which is often worse, is that they stay with you, but then they start behaving really poorly towards you and start treating you really badly. And then that's how the cycle of abuse starts, isn't it? Because then you're waiting for that sort of love bombing to start again.

And you're clinging on to that because you know that it exists because you've experienced it but then you're like in this kind of cycle of highs and lows and highs and lows totally and here's the thing right suddenly you're in a relationship and some guy starts acting cold and then he gets rid of you that is completely awful and it completely eradicates your sense of self-worth right but when this person for some reason doesn't get rid of you and doesn't discard you but you still have those feelings of being disregarded and disrespected it just creates this low-level confusion that underlies absolutely everything that you do in your life moving forward and then guess what gets even more confusing suddenly you'll just have a joyful four days where it's as though

that stuff never happened and suddenly there you are and you've got this person who's now completely present and you're reminded of that I'm going to call it the weekend in Brighton right because that's how my relationship started suddenly there you are back in Brighton or wherever it is and you're at the beginning of the relationship and so this joy and this passion and this intensity it it hasn't disappeared and that means and in fact it's even more profound because it's in stark contrast to how crap it is like 80% of the time so suddenly all you're doing in your moments of darkness when you're screaming into pillows you know or like acting you know at the end of your tether and kind of like a psychopath all you do is think it will be

okay because in a week two weeks we'll be back there again I just have to wait this out until it until it is a high again it's codependent it's pure codependency it's like being addicted to drugs yeah it is but what's wild is that like you said no one teaches you about this stuff and it's pure codependency it's like being addicted to drugs yeah it is but what's wild is that like you said no one teaches you about this stuff and it's also nowhere in popular culture and you write about this as well like the depiction of of abuse and relationships and abusive relationships it tends to veer on the physical side of things which is very much you know important we need to see that on the screen we need to learn about it but my god the the psychological abuse is so difficult to recognize and difficult to to understand and I think you know you make this point in the book perhaps the reason why we don't

see it on screen is because you would need like a very very long tv series to see the subtlety of it because this is all about nuance and you know physical violence of course you're absolutely right it has its place in pop culture because it's impactful and it's explosive and that's telly right or film like that's a that's a narrative it's got a very very clear dark night of the soul moment okay but this particular strain of emotional abuse I'm uh I'm conscious of using you you know, that big umbrella term, which obviously covers gaslighting and, you know, undermining and isolation and all of this stuff. It's so insidious and you don't even realise that it's happening. And actually, the way in which that is best depicted is something that's really kind of internalised and stylised and maybe something that's not so cut and dry and also i i talk about that but we're all we see in pop culture are these kind of submissive church mice characters

who are cowering away from their partners or you know they physically tremble whenever they're in the presence of someone who mentions their partner's name and everyone kind of knows what's going on you know but that also means that people who are perpetrating this kind of abuse they can't relate to these kind of skulking domestic terrorists who like creep around the house like raising their fists at their partner so we also have a responsibility to people who are inclined to behave abusively to make sure that they know what they're doing is abusive. Yeah, when you wrote about that, it really reminded me as well of just how we talk about sexual violence perpetrators as well, because it's the same thing. It's like when we talk about rape and talk about men who rape women, you picture these kind of Harvey Weinstein types

and these big Disney villains. And yeah, actually, again, that's very often not the case. And it's much more subtle and it's much more nuanced and it's much more complicated and again it's very often you know perpetrators of sexual violence won't think of themselves as perpetrators just as abusers won't think of themselves as abusers. Totally I mean I know people who have literally described to their partner exactly what they did when they have denied being a gaslighter and the partner has turned around and gone yeah I did all those things but I'm not a gaslighter right and I think it just comes with this almost caricature of what that person is supposed to

look like like really bold sharpie around this archetype and actually it's it's everywhere I can't stress that enough like it's absolutely everywhere and with that victims of abuse we need to see people in pop culture who are may I say every single woman that has come forward to who has read my book or read my statement and said thank god you did this because I would have identified as someone who was smart and on it and attractive and confident. And I just, the shame that I felt at this having happened to me, it made me think that I was not that kind of woman. And we need to know that actually there's no shame in it because it's so, it happens all the time. Yeah. It's so, it's so it happens all the time yeah

it's so it's so common it's so common and so often you know people talk about it they have no idea that they're that it's happening to them and at the end of your book you also you know you thank women's aid for helping you realize that you you were like what what's your phrase you're like that you deserve their help or something or that you yeah you qualify and that's what I mean it's like you don't feel like your story qualifies and it's because the perpetrators are so subtle and so insidious and this is why I want to talk to you about some of the specific things that you write about in the book um that I would you know I read and I think it's abuse um because I think you know a lot of people would not necessarily recognize that maybe but within the context of the whole framework of the book it's very very obvious

cool so one of them is when you know he he's a stand-up comedian he's on stage and he calls you up while he's on the show you don't realize he's on stage and starts mocking you for like asking him when he's gonna come home. And he kind of taps into that stereotype of like the needy crazy girlfriend, like, oh, my missus is, you know, she's so demanding. She wants to know where I am all the time. And at your expense and everyone in the audience,

he's like using that to really humiliate you. And it's, I mean, it made my blood boil. I thought it was disgusting. But I also just think, you know, that's such a horrible and such a hyperbolic example of humiliation. And it's it really, really just made me so angry. Yeah, I mean, that was the overriding emotion that I felt at the time as well.

I was totally livid living I was fuming but I mean what I will say about that particular instance so I've just you know paint the picture I'm at home

I'm literally in my joggers and like a crap t-shirt and no bra and I'm walking around going oh god okay I know that he's going to get home from this gig and there's no food here

so I just call him he should be finished by now you know normally he's finished by about this point on stage and so I call him up and then I hear him in a really hushed voice being like hello and I answers the phone weirdly and then it becomes really clear that he's answered the phone live on stage and I'm on speakerphone and everyone is suddenly listening and suddenly there I am in my flat on stage with no say over it at all. And I just remember being rooted to

the spot and really conscious that I don't know what my role here is. I kind of have to step up and be funny because otherwise I'm just being humiliated. So I need to kind of like almost leap over this situation in order to gain control of it because if I start performing then at least I'm in on it and that regardless of my willingness to be a part of that um so that was incredibly intense but again like this is another thing what I will say is that I don't actually think that that was a vindictive moment on my ex's part. I think he saw that and his conditioning just was to disregard what the fallout of that might be or my feelings because he's in the world of comedy and guess what? Not all of them, but it's a really, really toxic environment.

And what would be the funniest thing to do? Well, probably to do that. And I write in the book that, you know, in that world and in my household, funny will always triumph over kindness. Always. It's also just such a sexist stereotype. People are like, oh, the old ball and chain checking up on me where I am. God, she's awful. It's like, what it is, actually, if I may, is fucking lazy. Yeah. Sorry. It's lazy lazy comedy it's so lazy comedy and I even write about like me to be on the other end of the phone being like I mean the women in these kind of

situations aren't meant to be funny are they that's the man's job right I guess I'm just supposed to kind of be here as this sort of 90s wife like on the phone to Bruce Willis who's living at the real storyline while I'm in the kitchen like yeah serving a pot on the cordless phone you know um speaking of the kitchen the other incident I wanted to talk to you about um that you write about is when you decide to cook him a salmon on crouton I love salmon on crouton yeah I don't know why that has a bad rap um anyway the thing things I think this is quite shortly after the the live stage incident and you know you're trying to do a nice thing he comes home seems very non-plussed by the fact that you're cooking for him and then when you describe the dish to him he turns around and says it sounds fucking horrible

and it sort of feels like it's the straw that breaks the camel's back for you and you drop the dish smash the plate and get quite rightly very angry at him but the way you put it I loved it so much he said I smashed that dish on the kitchen floor I smashed open myself and Medea flew out and I can relate so hard to that um but I want to ask you about the conversation that you have with him afterwards when you ask him not to call you mental anymore um and you know I've been called mental by a man I've been called mentally ill by a man. I want to talk about why men like that call women mental and why even when you might act a little bit unhinged because you are angry, you're being polite.

It wasn't a little bit, but it was pure unhinged. And why the fuck not? I mean... Well, exactly. But the thing that I want to try and focus in on is it's the man that makes you unhinged. I see. And you would be completely mental not to get unhinged by that behavior.

That's the thing, right? And that conversation that I have with him on the floor afterwards, while we're eating the salmon on crude that I've smashed, you know, and sort of laughing about it, but also not. And it's very spiky conversation that can tip at any time.

But here's the thing. Like, it was really important for me to include that chapter because, of course, the way that I behaved was completely erratic. And, you know, wild, like a wild woman. Right. And that the reason that that happened is because I'm so I was so used to locking myself in this subservient shell just to avoid any aggro all the time. But when something happens that just bursts out of me, it's like it just is ready to pour and it doesn't end. And guess what happens as a result? He feels completely justified in calling me insane. And I think that makes sense.

You know, and suddenly there we are and we're all getting called these names and it feels valid in those moments but it's it's the kind of the attempt at boundaries by going I need you to stop calling me this and then we have a conversation he goes you say it about yourself all the time and I'm like yeah I feel like I'm allowed but I feel like you're not allowed because I'm allowed to self-identify but you're not allowed to contribute to that self-identification because it just sort of it gives it more power and it gives it more validation somehow but it's also just it's so dark isn't it because then you do start to genuinely think that you are mental and I hate that word but you start to think oh god maybe there is something really deeply wrong with me and then and again you write

this in the book and it's like how lucky am I to have someone who accepts me for who I am and loves me in spite of the fact that I'm completely insane and it's a form of control of course it is and it's akin to there's another point in the book where nine months into our relationship, right, I discovered that he had been sending explicit messages to someone over Facebook. And that instance is me in the book and in real life. I walk out, I go, no one does this to me. Like I am done. He asks for me back. We have a conversation. I forgive him. I go, everyone makes mistakes. And somewhere along the line, that instance turns from, why did you send explicit messages to another woman to, why are you spying on me? And guess what? That, why are you spying on me, was allowed to become the overriding framework that that incident happened like led into our future so that's another form of control right suddenly we're down the line and I'm going I think something's going on with this dancer and it becomes you can't get over that Facebook message from five and a half years ago or however long it was you know it's all these little things that we sort of allow and I mean that the the me me saying to him please don't call me mental of course the whole point of that being at that point in the book is really for us to see that even

though I asked him that and created a boundary there I didn't stick to it and and I didn't insist and I didn't stand by my word which is if you don't stop that then I'm gone because there's something in me that is conditioned to prioritize being in that relationship even even over my own mental state well I think it's conditioned in all of us I think we're all and you know we're all susceptible to being manipulated by men like that because it's how we've been raised to think like you said that this is what love is like and you know love takes work yeah it's compromised and it's a party it's a relationship yeah come on and when it's been like that for years and you have this person who's consistently chipping away at you but then also showing you adoration and then it's that like I said it's that cycle I love the reference that you have to Greek mythology at the start of

that bit, when you write about Cassandra, who was promised the gift of prophecy by Apollo, if she accepted his sexual advances. And then I know there are a few versions of what happened next, but one of them is that she agrees at first and then changes her mind. So Apollo puts a curse on her that means she could see the future and including her own death and the deaths of her families but no one would ever believe her I was thinking about that and I was like is that why is that why people think women are always insane is that where this comes from because this seems to this is an issue for millennia I'm like where does this actually come from it's incredible isn't it and when you think about those myths, you know, thousands and thousands of years ago,

those myths are written for people to make sense of stuff that they're seeing on Earth, right? So they attribute it to these higher beings. But, of course, what people were seeing over and over again are women with insight and intuition and people dismissing it all the time. Yeah. Breaking news happens anywhere, anytime. Police have warned the protesters repeatedly, get back. CBC News brings the story to you as it happens.

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and monetize their podcasts everywhere. Acast.com. So just with regards to emotional abuse, and I kind of touched on this earlier, and you mentioned a few different forms that it can take. And, you know, it's something that I think you've only really, as most women, you know know who are a victim to emotional abuse understand when they are out of it how do you understand it now and what advice would you

give to people who are currently in an emotionally abusive relationship okay um I'll talk about I'll talk about gaslighting first if I can because I think that at the risk of sounding woefully humorless, I do think that gaslighting is now finding its way into like really watery moments that are completely distilled down and it's being misused quite a lot. And for me, gaslighting, I would define it as someone else calling into question your mental state in order to facilitate their own bad behavior and that bad behavior can take whatever form it is whether it's you know cheating on you with other people or just wanting to undermine you or needing control or whatever it is but if they say to you there's something wrong with your brain and then carry on doing what they're doing as if nothing has happened then that to me is gaslighting and that doesn't have to be a romantic partner either that can be at work that can be within family and friendship groups so

that feels pretty watertight and then emotional abuse I mean it's about your friends aren't really your friends that isolating thing right it's about you need to stand you need to stand up straighter when you're when you're walking because you're slouching and then you doing it without even you know questioning that it's about why don't you do what his girlfriend does just really subtle nuanced ways uh undercutting the person that you are and before you know what's happening you're starting to erode and you you know that's happening on the outside but also you're doing it to yourself right and you're getting smaller and smaller and smaller to

accommodate their space and before you know what's happening you're in a flat crouched in the corner you know on all fours and they are seemingly like blown up like Alice in Wonderland or something, right, into all four corners of this space. And you know, you know when that's happened. It feels like you've just, it feels like your brightness has been turned down and you can't think of what to say, like when you're with your friends and you feel like you have nothing to offer them and you end up thinking, I'm sure I used to be more like them you know that feeling yeah I think the isolation from your social circle is a really important thing to recognize because again it's really subtle it happens over time but it's comments like like you said like your friends don't really care about you your friends aren't really good enough for you yeah and it's constantly

trying to you know so that you will feel that this person is the only person that really loves me exactly and it gives them just more control over you well let me tell you why as well because the only people who are going to be able to tell that you are a victim of abuse are the people that really really care about you physical abuse has you know it manifests itself in ways that are so clear and you know you've got I always think about you know you've got Audrey from Little Shop of Horrors you know with her compact putting stuff on a bruise and but it's always really evident sure um but with emotional abuse it's so difficult to tell when it's happened to anyone but women's aid will tell

you this as well it's the eyes right it's the light in someone's eyes that when you look in their eyes it's just gone and that because they're not present and they're completely checked out and who's going to be able to tell the difference the people who love you the people who really do and so then when this person who it is that you're going out with goes oh they're not really your friends? It's almost like you jump at the chance because you're like, oh God, because it is actually exhausting to be around them and not look them in the eye or just make sure that they're not, you know, they're not completely privy to what's going on.

It's draining. So actually you're like, right, yeah, not going to see them anymore. Yeah. I think what's also important to point out is that, you know, people who do this, they're not necessarily doing it consciously thinking I'm going to make this person feel really small. I want this person to only rely on me. I want to really I want to consciously emotionally abuse this person. You know, it goes back to what we said before. It's not like that. And I think it's important to say that because to anyone who's listening and thinking, you know, oh, God, I wouldn't have these people sound awful.

I would never do that. That's not the point. It's not. You could do this. And, you know, it might it's probably just because you're hurt, you know, hurt people, hurt people, don't they? Yeah, that's what you say. People who've. Well, here's something else as well. Right. People who've experienced trauma, trauma that isn't transformed will always be transmitted. And so much and so many stories that I hear have to do with people being like, oh, but I don't really understand what they've been through. And maybe if I'd been through what they've been through, maybe I would be behaving like this.

But lucky for them, I'm really strong and I'm actually really capable. And sure, you are being strong for your partner who might have gone through something awful but you're using your own strength against yourself in that instance and that person is allowed to be stronger and take up more space as I say and you're turning it on you and you're going you're just you're just going in on yourself you don't even realize it until it's too late. To add another kind of layer of complexity into all of this because it is so complicated you know after everything happens you write about how you really missed him and I think you know it's really crucial to talk about that side of things because it's when you're with someone like that it's not like it's toxic

all the time it's not like it's a consistently bad behavior of course it's not and so when so when someone asks you the question, you know, why did you stay? I think it's similar to asking you, why did you miss him? And it's, I suspect the answers are kind of similar to those questions. Yeah. Because it's a mistake to assume that when you're in a toxic relationship, it's completely crap and awful all of the time. It absolutely isn't. It's a definition of a cycle. You're waiting. You're waiting in this space where you feel more shit than you've ever felt. You're just riding it out until the inevitable high comes, which it always does. I write in the book after the night on my birthday when I'm in that kitchen sobbing over a lasagna because my boyfriend is out

with his dance partner from Strictly you know guess what happens the next day he messages me saying hi I feel really awful about what happens I'm thinking that on Sunday we should go out and have like a special day um and you know have your birthday that day and I've not really been there for you and I'm really sorry and that there it is suddenly you're waiting for Sunday when everything is okay again and actually it just does that again and again and again so when you come out of that relationship and for all of the liberation that you feel and there is a lot let me tell you like it was honestly like oh this is what empowerment feels like you know and not just in that I can now use

both sides of the bed way in a oh I don't have to wake up in the morning and compromise what it is that I want to do for someone who I actually don't think is very good for me but along with that you do mourn those moments you mourn those moments where you actually did feel close to that person on an intimate level and you mourn that beginning and you mourn that holiday in Cambodia and you know you mourn all of these moments with that person sitting on sitting on the sofa watching Madonna fall over at the Brit Awards you know when you both laughed you know your head off sorry Madonna but it was absolutely lulz um it was absolutely lulz I remember that but those moments were real they were still real and you know within this book I I also want to honor that too it's not just a big like this was a completely awful thing so

yeah grief is complicated and it will always come for you when you don't expect it to yeah another feeling I want to ask you about that I felt a lot when I was reading this book is just pure rage um and I think female rage is something that you know we are becoming slightly better at talking to and accepting as a society because for years and centuries women have not been allowed to get angry. How did you navigate that personally and you know just the anger that you must have felt while this was happening after this was happening even now I don't know but how do you deal with that do you box do you do aggressive exercise you find a way to express yourself and do it in a way that's really safe and you don't work out of your anger and you don't work

out of it in a way that is gonna you know slash those around you I think that to, you know, slash those around you. I think that anger is, you know, female rage, right? It doesn't have to be unhealthy and it doesn't have to be, you know, misdirected. If you own your anger and your rage, well, there's nothing you can, like nothing anyone can say because it's yours, it belongs to you. And that's fine as long as you're not hurting anyone. It doesn't mean that you don't have to call people out and, you know, and be really honest about how you're feeling. But if I say to you, babe, I felt angry about something that happened and my feelings of anger, you can't turn around and say to me, no, you didn't, or you had no right to. And whatever it brings up with you whether that's shame or

sadness or whatever I'm not trying to shame you I'm just trying to express myself so then that becomes yours um but yeah I mean when I was I've got I've got loads of rage all the time I mean I've just got a really good way of letting it out I've you know look at Alanis Morissette you know I saw her at the O2 two weeks ago and she's singing you all I know did it feel dangerous no it didn't it felt like really it felt contained and it felt owned yeah I um I watched Olivia Rodrigo at Glastonbury and so many of her songs are about one particular ex and she said um you know I wrote this song and this guy was treating me like rubbish and he wasn't showing me enough attention. Now here I am singing it to you at Glastonbury.

You know what I mean? Exactly. Well, she's learned the secret, which is that like, if you don't express your anger, that is going to fester. And guess what is going to turn into? Resentment.

And you know what resentment is? It's a poison that you drink yourself because no one else around you, they're all moving on. They've all like got someone new or whatever. They don't give a shit that you're angry with them. only person that's going to eat up is you and that's good enough reason to get your anger out when it appears totally um i want to talk about your statement your brilliant brilliant statement that went absolutely viral and also i loved reading

about the sort of behind the scenes of what was going on when that when it did blow up because of course you didn't expect it and then you were inundated with messages from and not just strangers on the internet but like celebrities and all of these people contacting you it just sounds like it was so wild and I love that you were you know so honest about being like constantly checking your phone being like I was looking at it all the time being like oh my god oh my god oh my god because of course you would be of course you would I'm not being cool about that I'm not being chill um so what what was that what was that like for you and also do you still get people coming up to you now to say thank you and I presumably for the book as well you will get that yeah yeah I do I mean not so much in a

long time to do with the statement because it was such a long time ago but now the book's come out yeah it's sort of had a resurgence that kind of message it was crazy I mean it's wild as if I'm not gonna check all the time I mean how many people have retweeted it or whatever I genuinely was just sitting there you know in my sort of unwashed outfit that I wore at the Strictly car park with my friends the next afternoon being like okay we have to bear in mind that maybe like 50 people will like this but it doesn't matter because I felt invisible for such a long time in that relationship and I waited I waited for him really to release a statement to make me visible in some way the dancer Katia she released a statement um and she mentioned her husband and apologized to him my ex releases a

statement nothing he just attempts to eradicate me from that story I was like wow I was I was hanging on and I was waiting for him to bring me into this well I'm going to be waiting a fucking long time if that's the case so guess who guess who's got the power to step into this narrative me and it just again like as I say I just the night before I'd learned that I wasn't crazy so I had all this empowerment and I felt all of this like responsibility to other people that felt the way that I did on that night on my birthday to go you know what I'm not I'm not the victim of this because my life's going to be great yeah and it really has been and i loved your author bio at the back it's so good when you describe because everyone has a little bio at the back of a book and i'm so glad you noticed

rebecca has written for vogue elder guardian and telegraph on relationships singledom and womanhood in 2019 she spoke at the house of commons on behalf of the organizers of the women's march london about gaslighting and the media. As an actress, Rebecca has most recently appeared in 10%, The Crown and Friday Night Dinner. All of the above has happened since her public breakup in 2018. And I was like, yes, I love that so much. Yeah, because it's true. It has gone from your career has gone from strength to strength. And so, you know, deservedly so. And I have no doubt the book, you know, it's going to be incredibly successful they should teach it in schools oh thank you um that was I'm so glad that you picked up on that because it's such a it's a

very cheeky message I loved it to you know all those people who felt like I once did that was like you know my life's pretty shit at the moment living with this person but if I left it's only going to get worse it's like no babe like that's when your life starts let me tell you we've got a little bit of time left I have got to ask you about one of the guys in the book who you write about this is post strictly but my god it's so important his name is Hugo and so I have had so many experiences with men like this so he is the sort of archetypal soft boy but I think that label actually lets him off too easy. Labels do.

They do. Labels do let people off too easy. Exactly, because then people immediately think, oh, I know who he is, and you don't. So there were so many things that riled me up about this guy, but can you just explain what happened on that night with him when you guys went out? He was someone that you'd known for a while.

You said you described him as the man of your dreams he you know works with refugees he's a very nice guy he's a good guy um he's up to date with feminist yeah culture he reached out to you when the statement went viral and was like you know just so great to see what you're doing and then you asked him for a drink yeah so what happened so i actually went out with him we were doing a show together and like earlier on in the year when we were both having problems with our ex and I was still with my boyfriend we went on this you know slightly pissed night out and nothing happened between us but I mean given half the chance like it was one of those moments right but I talk about that too in the book about infidelity and like how how complex it is and layered so what happens then is suddenly I get this text from him after all the Strictly stuff

happens and he's like just inferring that he's also broken up with his girlfriend and I was like you want to go for me like chomping at the bit I was so spicy it felt like actually what it felt like is the stars aligning and I was like fuck okay this is it because that that whole five and a half year relationship was just a holding place for the man who was actually meant for me because he works with refugees okay and like he's a really good guy and so I meet him and like he's this sexy Labrador who's like six foot two Disney prince vibe you know comes bounding up to me. He's so positive. He's listening to me properly from across the table after such a long time with a boyfriend looking

at his phone, you know, in a restaurant. He's listening to everything I'm saying. He's making me not feel like some fucking boring, archaic program about domesticity that's on Kelly in the background, you know, he's actually there. And I was, I describe it as the best and worst day of my life, right? Because he's talking to talking to me he actually at one point says to me thing I don't get about all of these fuckers right all of these men has a man all of these men is that it's going to take them forever to realize that strong smart women are the sexiest ones and I'm there and like my knickers are on fucking fire I'm like like I mean Christ alive so anyway then what happens is we start drinking and we keep drinking and we keep drinking it's Christmas and it's

romance it's Richard Curtis you know and I'm like start going I don't want anything else to drink and he is just like to the barman ignore her she's drunk you know and starts fueling me suddenly I'm just like all over the damn shop. We go to this casino in Leicester Square where suddenly he gets sort of like laser beam focused and like starts revealing that people then know who he is. And like, he's like, you know, he's like Rain Man. He's winning all this money. And I feel like a sort of fluffy Bond girl, which obviously, you know, I just love to be someone's dumb girlfriend. So I'm just like loving life.

Like, wow, you're amazing, James. And then he was like, we're going to karaoke with the money. And he goes in, they're like, oh, we've only got a booth of eight people. He's like, good. And puts the money down and a bottle of champagne. And we go into this karaoke booth,

sing about four bars of The Lion King, just start making out. It's unreal. Men, really long story short, we're walking through Soho and he fucking disappears he disappears and I'm like he real life ghosts me in the middle of the street and it's like like half two in the morning and I'm absolutely battered full of alcohol that I didn't want to drink I call him he won't answer I don't know how I'm going to get home I've messaged him my phone's on two percent please can you just call me eventually he picks up and I go and find him he's he was like oh sorry I went to Burger King

I was like you went to you went to Burger King yeah I was hungry oh that justifies it thank you also you were on your way to get a hotel room yeah of course yeah yeah crucially on our way to get a hotel yeah and then he goes to get a burger he goes to get a hotel room. Yeah, of course. Yeah, yeah. Crucially, Miss Ariel, on our way to get a hotel room. Yeah. And then he goes to get a burger. He goes to get a burger. And I was like, do you still want to do this? And he was like, yeah, yeah, yeah. And so we start walking along Shaftesbury Avenue.

And then he just starts crossing the road. And I was like, I said to him, what are you doing? And he's like, what are you doing? Like this absolute faux woke bro who all night has just been talking to me about feminist issues and how important they are. And I was like, no, seriously, what are you doing? And then honestly, like Harry fucking Potter, a bus comes past and he's gone.

He is gone. And suddenly there I am at half two in the morning or three in the morning, battered with no battery on my phone. I have to call my best friend just a bit. Please can you get me an uber for some reason I was so pissed the only place I knew I had to get to was Fortnum I love that detail I'll be out so fortnum she's like what so I sort of went and somehow miraculously got home and he texted me the next day saying look I'm really sorry I still wasn't over my girlfriend I was like at what point in the

evening when we were really getting on did you not think that I could understand that or that I wouldn't be receptive to that and then he was like can we be friends that's the thing that killed me it's like he has the audacity to think after he treated you like that and then made you feel like you imagined the whole evening absolutely made me feel like and and also how I felt about it was invalid and maybe I should just get over it because maybe, maybe I'm being a bit mental about it. And I was like, this is soft core gaslighting. And then he was like, yeah, can we be friends? And I just thought about it and I was like, oh, I know what love is now

because I've left this relationship and I've seen my friends turn up for me in such a profound way and I've seen how much they respect me and how much they value me and how open and honest they are with me and how much I trust them and vice versa and I was like my friends would never do that yeah anyway it's been the the lovely guy who did my audio book with me I read through it and then at the end he just you know clicked back on and he went soft boys big night out I was like oh it's perfect it's perfect I love it so much because honestly I know so many men that behave like that and they are they're they're just as bad as the people that we were talking about before like the really abusive types because

it's like they are gaslighting you and they are also kind of manipulating you taking no it's tactical yeah it's very tactical and I was trying to think about why men behave like this and I think it's also narcissism because it's like by doing that with you and seeing you know being so nice to you telling you everything you want to hear and being so kind and so attentive does it then feed his ego to see you getting more and more like invested yeah and then once he sees that and once he's kissed you then he's like cool done another one bites the dust yeah absolutely i'm gonna go get back it's so weird and then you write in the in when you're writing about you know when you're texting him the next day you were like i want to remind him that he was the one that was

gonna go get condoms yeah you know yeah like all're texting him the next day, you're like, I want to remind him that he was the one that was going to go get condoms. Yeah. You know? Yeah. Like all of those things. And he just, well, he just forgets that he was the one pushing for this. And before you know what's happening, if you're not careful, you suddenly feel really ashamed and you're going, oh, I thought it was like a date, but like maybe, maybe it wasn't a

date. Yeah, because then he said to you, he said it's, I never said it was a date. I never said. Yeah, I never said. And it's like, what are you kidding? Like you're at a pub, a Christmas, a contact school. Two single people going for a drink yeah crazy oh it blows my mind um right finally before we conclude I want to ask how you're doing now and the book is out and this all happened a long time ago you end the book by saying that you met someone don't necessarily need to know about who you're dating now but I just mean how are you generally I am overwhelmed at uh the amount of people I suppose that that

have taken to this book and that want to talk about it and want to continue the conversation really I mean I always knew that I'm not the first person to speak about these issues but I just wanted to be part of the chat you know know, and so hopefully widen it out, which is, of course, why I felt such responsibility because the Strictly thing, you know, it's so public. And in fact, I thought, you know, if someone picks this up thinking this is going to be a kiss and tell about the Strictly scandal, so be it if it means they engage with what it is I'm trying to talk about. like angle it that way so there's a bit of overwhelm but also I guess I'm just feeling I'm feeling pretty grounded at the moment I mean

I feel so proud of being able to have conversations like this and speaking to people who know their shit and who have passion about getting these kind of chats out there um and engage people on these issues and I mean I'm gonna I'm gonna go on holiday so that feels pretty great as well I'm gonna piss off you need to be in a women's circle in Bali somewhere you know and like chat to other women and stuff you know and and then I'm gonna just just calm down hang out with my friends I've worked really hard you know it's really important I'm gonna just just calm down hang out with my friends I've worked really hard you know it's really important I'm not gonna there was a version of me that would have just kept going and going until I burn out but I know better than that now no you deserve a

break I think that's a really good idea um before we finish uh we have this part of the show where I ask everyone to share a lesson in love just something to the listeners to tell them something that you've learned in your previous relationships again I always say this but I feel like the entire episode is a lesson in love but if you could pick one particular thing that you want to share with listeners what would it be so many voices compete for attention in my head whenever I get asked a question like this but the one that I think is really is crucial, actually, is the onus that we put on romantic love is so vast and so all encompassing. When I stepped out of what I thought was my big love story and, you know, had my meet cute with myself in that car park. Right. I realized that love is so profound when

it's lateral and I wished that I hadn't wasted all that time pouring my love in one direction when actually the love that I had among me with my friends was so so much more technicolored and varied and fun and wild and so much more respectful and I think it's just so important that we really actively nurture that relationship with our friends they're not just people who are on the phone when your relationship's going badly they it involves time and just just a real concentrated nurturing yeah and that really comes across in the book as well I think you know you see your friends really rally around you when everything's going on but there's also a lot of really fun times with all of them and you see how good they are to you and how a lot of them you know were recognizing you know how this relationship was affecting you and

and it's I think it's a real like it's a really lovely ode to them as well yeah it is an ode to them hugely and I mean I started having more fun than I've had in years because I started going out with people who actually made me truly laugh and who truly loved me yeah so that's that's my that's my hot take oh that's all we've got time for today I could talk to you for hours um that's all we've got time for today. I could talk to you for hours. That's all we've got time for today. Thank you so much for listening. If you have been affected by any of the issues that we have discussed in today's show,

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