Love Lives - Sex Education’s George Robinson on playing Isaac, ableism and intimacy co-ordinators

Episode Date: October 8, 2021

Support Millennial Love with a donation today: https://supporter.acast.com/millennialloveThis week, Olivia speaks to actor George Robinson, who is best known for playing Isaac in Netflix’s hit series Sex Education.The two discuss how George helped to shape the role of Isaac, what it was like working with an intimacy coordinator for his scenes with Maeve (played by Emma Mackey) and what some of the myths and misconceptions are when it comes to sex and relationships and people with disabilities.Follow the show on Instagram at @millennial_loveSupport this show http://supporter.acast.com/millenniallove. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This episode is brought to you by Google Pixel. I'm Jessi Cruikshank. I host the number one comedy podcast called Phone a Friend. I also have three kids. I need help making every day easier. So I switched to Google Pixel. It's a phone powered by Gemini, your personal AI assistant. Gemini can help you summarize your unread emails,

suggest what to make with the food in your fridge, and it helped me achieve a family photo where everyone is smiling at the camera. I didn't think it was possible, but it is with Google Pixel 9. Learn more at store.google.com. Hello and welcome to Millennial Love, a podcast from The Independent on everything to do with love, sexuality, identity, and more. This week, I'm joined by the actor George Robinson,

who is best known for playing Isaac in Netflix's hit series Sex Education. We talked about how George helped to shape the role of Isaac, what it was like working with an intimacy coordinator for some of his scenes with Maeve and what some of the myths and misconceptions are when it comes to sex and relationships and people with disabilities. I should also add that for those who haven't watched the latest series of Sex Education, there are a few spoilers in this episode, so you might want to wait until you've seen the whole thing before listening. Enjoy the show! Hi George, how are you? I'm very well thanks, how are you doing? Yeah I'm good thank you, I'm really good. Thank you so much for coming on Millennial Love, I'm so excited to talk to you. I am a huge fan of

sex education, I binged the entire new series when I was very ill with this awful cold that's been going around and no it was not Covid, so it was great to have something to watch um can you start off just for people who aren't familiar with you and your story by describing your disability and tell us what happened during that rugby game when you were how old were you? 16, 17? 17, right. Yeah. So, well, where to start really, I suppose. Yeah, sport has been like a big part of my life. Just generally all my weekends were filled with, you know, football, rugby, cross country, all of that stuff, an active young lad. And, you know, I was all right at sport.

I think most of it was I could just run quite a lot, large distances and stuff. So that sort of meant throughout football and rugby, I would just run, I'd just fling my body at people. football and rugby, I would just run. I'd just fling my body at people. And when the opportunity came for me to go on a school rugby tour to South Africa, I thought, well, it's spending two and a bit weeks with your mates in a foreign country.

It's perfect. I mean, the rugby was completely secondary, really. And yes, we went on the trip, stayed at a lovely South African family's house. And then in the game, I was on the bench. So I was very determined to not be on the bench for the next game. So I hyped myself up and just like, right, I'm going to make a big hit, bench so I was very determined to not be on the bench for the for the next game so I like hyped myself up and just like right I'm gonna make a big big hit make it so I'm not on the bench because

it's a bit boring so yeah I I we had a scrum on our own five meter line um and then we kicked it out and I was chasing after the ball uh The opposition caught it and I thought it would be a good decision to just dive head first into this bloke. And yeah, and then the specifics of what happened, I'm not totally sure on, but from what I've sort of pieced together together maybe is the right way of putting it is i dove in as he was sidestepping and what happened was my spinal column was dislocated and the dislocation caused um the severing of the spinal cord. So instantly I sort of was on the floor, not being able to feel stuff. I remember,

I remember saying those were my first few words of just like, I don't feel stuff. I've since become more eloquent. Yeah. I think stuff seemed to, you know get across the the nature that things weren't weren't quite right um i was yeah i was completely conscious during all of it which is a bit of a a weird one because i was sort of chatting my way through um breaking my neck and just not really understanding what had quite happened. I knew something wasn't quite right. I couldn't feel stuff as I've said. But yeah, I think there was

an ambulance who were there and they sort of took me to hospital. I began to flirt with the nurses in the ambulance or in the ambulance and the coach told me to not swear and so it was like oh I'm so sorry for swearing after you know yeah and then sort of I remember being in the ambulance sort of just trying to piece together what had happened. You know, you, at the point, I think it was just, maybe I couldn't feel stuff because of shock or whatever. I, you know, done whatever. I wasn't, I was trying to piece together what had happened. And then I arrived at the hospital and I remember seeing the physician there, the doctor, just on the door and I asked him

like this question and it was a weird question for someone for you to ask genuinely um because it felt felt I felt almost silly for saying something so I don't know, weird. And it was just like, am I going to walk again? And he just went, I don't know. And I was like, ah, not ideal. And then that was, yeah, that was the last thing I really remember before I woke up post-surgery with a few bolts in my neck. Am I right in thinking that the character of Isaac,

it kind of came about after you were cast in terms of they shaped that role for you to a degree talk to me about that and how that kind of came about and your involvement in the role yeah so um I think that the role of Isaac was always meant for someone with a disability that the writers have been pretty clear on that but they were very open as to what disability um he was going to have so um they basically when the casting call went out it was essentially just a list of his personality traits so he was you know witty sarcastic you know, very comfortable within themselves. And, yeah, he had a disability. So the audition process for the casting director must have been, you know,

very broad in that sense in terms of the different disabilities that they wanted to explore. And, yeah, when I went in, I sort of read it as, very broad in that sense in terms of the different disabilities that they wanted to explore. And yeah, when I went in, I sort of read it as, I saw a lot of similarities between myself and and Isaac. So that sort of helped me just relax into it and just go, right, this is a, an audition for a Netflix show. I, you know, the fact that I'm auditioning is cool in of itself um so I'm just gonna go in and um do my best to be Isaac and luckily they liked it it was cool what do you love most about playing Isaac I mean he's such a brilliant character like you said he's witty sarcastic he kind of takes no bullshit um he has this great kind of attitude I think people really

resonate with and it's a really interesting dynamic seeing him and Maeve who is also quite like a spiky character um so yeah what do you love most about playing him? I think it's just the self-assurance that he's got. Like you said, he doesn't take any stick. He's very, very comfortable within himself. And I feel like I've learned a lot from him in that sense of just belonging. He belongs wherever he goes. he'll make himself belong and whether people like him or not that doesn't seem to faze him um and I really like playing that and how closely have

you worked with the showrunner and the people on set in terms of kind of shaping Isaac's narrative on the show and the kind of trajectory that he takes um specifically with the relationship with Maeve is that something that you've kind of been very engaged in well I think that the the showrunners and the writers they have their sort of overarching plan with Isaac and And I suppose that when I speak to them, I mean, a lot of it, I've had some really good conversations in terms of where Isaac's going and my thoughts on big picture stuff.

But majority of the time, it's, right, this is what we're planning to do with Isaac. What would be the most authentic way in order to do that and ways in which we can explore things if you've got any personal experiences that we can interweave into that so I mean the idea of of Isaac and Maeve at the top of the staircase um before Isaac's Otis's party that sort of came from my experience of just almost jokingly suggesting just like okay so i've read so i've read that there's gonna be a party uh i remember from seeing the first series there's a massive stair staircase just before the house like how is isaac gonna get in i was like oh yeah well write that in

um but they're really open to sort of suggestions and a few um I've noticed a few times with the self-deprecating humor that Isaac has that and and it's a very very particular thing uh self-deprecating humor um and people with different disabilities approach it in in a different way so sometimes the wording um they're really really open to me just suggesting just like well actually i know i know exactly what you're trying to do there but it wouldn't quite be approached in that way um so they're really open in that sense just with the small like dialogue shifts as well and in terms of um and this is a spoiler for anyone who hasn't seen the latest series um but in terms of the relationship with Maeve and there's that kind of intimate scene between Isaac and Maeve how much of that specifically did you advise on and what was that scene like to film how did you prepare for that

did you guys work with an intimacy coordinator for example yeah so um the writers uh have like you know they're they're very good in in terms of speaking to various charities um spinal cord injury charities like myself and just making sure that they build up as good a picture as they can and also approach a scene like that and there was a lot of discussions that myself Emma had with the creative team just just talking about the nature of that scene because it's such a delicate moment within the story. And we just had to make sure collectively that it was right for the characters in that moment. We approached it in the right way because obviously when you see a scene coming up there's like you know

right this is going to be a thing culturally just because of the nature of the scene but you've got to in order to do do that scene correctly you've got to completely push that out of your head got a complete because otherwise you're you spend the entire scene just sort of looking at the camera almost just like look what we're doing aren't we great let's you know aren't we fantastic including a scene like this but that's just you know that's really annoying and it's the scene wouldn't be successful So we made sure that we just completely ignored all of that cultural significance stuff and just made sure we focused on the story,

on the characters. And yeah, I'm really, really pleased with that scene. And yeah, we worked with an intimacy coordinator who really was really helpful in um just making sure we felt comfortable uh in that moment i think the way that um uh run your ro um our director and um ollie the the dop really really helped make us make myself and emma feel comfortable and the handheld approach was really, really helped make us, make myself and Emma feel comfortable and the handheld approach was really great.

And it's a really beautiful scene. I'm really proud of it. Yeah, I think it's the highlight of the series for me, 100%. And it's not just because it's something that, you know, you never see on screen, but I do think, like you said, it's really beautifully handled. And you can tell that there's a real kind of level of trust I think between you and Emma as actors is that fair to say? Oh yeah definitely we had loads and loads of conversations I mean most of my time on set I spend sort of

as I yeah with with Emma so we really made sure that we both felt comfortable and we were advocates for one another to make sure we both felt safe um yeah and obviously when you're working with someone as talented and as um as generous as Emma um it makes things a lot easier what has the feedback been like from viewers of the show I guess with that scene particular and from people within the disability community because it must have meant so much to see something like that on screen yeah um the feedback has been really great. Um, I mean, across the board, really, I think, um, a lot of, a lot of the things that I've seen, I don't really seek it out, but it's some, some things get sent to me and stuff. A lot of it's like, um, man, I really hate Isaac, but like, that seems really beautiful or whatever um but then yeah it's the the message that I've um seen along the lines of like wow I've never seen anything like that before you have really um made me feel valid um as an intimate being um which is uh yeah it's it's a real honor to um

yeah be told stuff like that in the years after your accident do you think how would seeing a scene like that on such a mainstream show as sex education is, you know, it's watched around the world, it's on Netflix, it's this huge television series. How would seeing that scene have affected you, sort of in the immediate aftermath of the accident, do you think? I'm not sure, really. I think, obviously, it would have helped me feel valid and that nothing had changed in the sense that I was still,

like I said, like an intimate, intimate being, heterosexual being. But I think I've, I've, I've realized that there's, I realized that becoming, it's a very weird thing getting a spinal cord injury because all of a sudden you are part of a minority that you had never been part of or whatever. I'd, you know, I'd watch the Paralympics every four years or whatever. And then all of a sudden I'm sort of, you know, you're part of this minority. So what I've found, obviously, you know, with my accident and seeing a scene like that in the, you know, six years since I've been injured, you know, it would have changed my mind.

Like, just be like, wow, this is a great scene that i haven't seen before but for also the people who have been you know perhaps disabled for their entire lives and not seeing that at all for their entire lives um yeah i mean like i said it's just a huge honor to to have been a part of that thing culturally and we were talking before we started recording that sex education has just been confirmed and it's coming back, which is very exciting for another season. And if you can talk about this, as far as we know,

you are coming back into the show. I mean, we'll see. We'll have to wait and see. I hope so, because I have to be honest, as a viewer, and also spoiler alert to anyone listening, but frankly if you haven't seen the show yet you shouldn't be listening to this episode at all but I was quite

frustrated with the way that it ended and the the way that the way that Maeve kind of just said goodbye to Isaac and moved to America and then that was just it. And frankly, I thought Isaac forgave Maeve too quickly for kissing Otis. I was like, no, that's not OK. He was too nice to just be like, oh, no, it's fine. Yeah, we'll be friends at some point. I left that feeling quite frustrated. How did you feel? Well, I think that with Isaac, I don't think,

I wouldn't say he forgave Maeve though I think that you know he he told her outright that if it's going to be a choice between him and Otis he'd rather not that if the fact that there's a choice is a problem for him yeah so he's not going to you know mess allow himself to be messed around and if you know if she's umming and ahhing the fact that she's umming and ahhing suggests that it's not right and um i think that's one of the reasons that isaac has um become a bit more likable to view is in the fact that he won't allow himself to be um you know taken for for granted and if someone's not sure about him then that's fine he's happy to to let them go and obviously so far his you know his his relationship is with Maeve has been the main part of his story, but I'm sure there's plenty more to tell with Isaac.

Yeah, so am I. I also, you just reminded me, I love the line that Isaac says to Maeve, where he says, you know, that's why you give me a hard time more than anyone else, because you know that that's what's going to make me feel seen. How much did that resonate with you personally? Quite a lot in the sense of um I mean particularly in the first few years after um my injury um I don't think I think this goes

for a lot of people whether you're disabled or or not is it's very easy to push people away and be um you know addicted people and then people are just like oh no that's just that's just how he is he's just he pushes people away and if that's how you're treated permanently and you're allowed to get away with stuff and then as soon as someone calls you out on it you suddenly feel like you have yeah been seen you're not gonna you're you're not you're not gonna be allowed to get away with that anymore and that is just as validating as anything else and yeah the thing with Isaac is that you know particularly in season two with making up of the stories about his injury um you know the Afghan dogs um the the mysterious incident involving the wind all of that when that gets questioned by someone he's suddenly oh okay that's interesting i'm not going to be able to get away with that and that like i said can be incredibly validating

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What has playing Isaac taught you about living with a disability, if anything? Well, I think it's just, I mean, like I said, that level of self-assuredness and just, yeah, just that level of confidence of you exist you don't have to apologize for your existence you are a totally valid human you um yeah you you don't need to yeah like i say you don't need to apologize for your existence life can be just as fulfilling um yeah as as as it had been you know before or if if yeah if you hadn't had a disability at all you're valid watching the show right I've always rooted for Isaac and Maeve throughout since he's been a character and it was only when season three finished,

that I sort of questioned myself. And I thought, why does it seem so like, why am I so annoyed that Maeve has gone back to Otis? And why do I find it? Why am I rooting so much more for Isaac when, you know, he's behaved badly too. And then I thought, is this my own sort of prejudice? Because Isaac has a disability, and therefore I'm rooting for him more. And then too and then I thought is this my own sort of prejudice because Isaac has a disability and therefore I'm rooting for him more and then that and then I thought well that's quite problematic if that's where that comes from but I kind of had to question myself a bit and and think why is it that I feel that way and I wonder if other viewers feel like that or if that's a common experience where and that's what's so brilliant I, about the show is if it's hopefully making people question their bias, I suppose.

behind those things are just because of the fantastic, the writing behind the character of Isaac and that whole arc of it. Because the structure of the show, the structure of the teen genre is based around the will they, won't they of it. But then with the writers, I mean, with introduction of Isaac and then with Ruby on the other side, is that you've got such compelling relationships on either side of that structural romance, let's say, that it really makes you question those tropes. makes you question those tropes um and yeah i i have sort of thought about like what analyzing the reasons and whether that instinctive oh go yeah go on isaac is

whether that's condescending at all in terms of wait why am i rooting for isaac is it just because like oh go on go on lad yeah yeah exactly you're in a chair you know go on let's let's give him a pat on the head but no it's not because of that is it it's because of he and mave have a connection and it goes far beyond box ticking because of of the way it's written um totally yeah I think I think if anything it speaks to the lack of representation in popular culture because I really just can't think of any other uh films and tv shows of this magnitude where you've seen that kind of central relationship play out between an able-bodied person someone with a disability not not anything

recent that I've seen anyway I mean correct me if I'm wrong I mean I'm not very good at watching things actually I have my I think I think everyone does I have my like go-to comfort tv shows that I re-watch what are they they? Is it Friends? No, I've never actually watched Friends. Really? I think because my mum watched it a lot. So I've like seen bits and bobs of episodes, but I've

never really gone to it. You know, I think it's like, I'm a massive fan of like British comedy and stuff. So I really like the UK office office but then also the us office uh always sunny in philadelphia there's always a it's a go-to um yeah i i'm i'm trying to be better a more rounded person who watches um uh a wide variety of things i mean my recommendation and also we'll edit this out

because this is totally irrelevant, but Succession, have you seen Succession? I need to, I need to. That's the best thing on TV, apart from sex education. Yeah,

thank you. I'm seven episodes into Squid Game at the moment. Oh, I haven't seen that. I've heard that's supposed to be good. It's wild. It's very,

very good. Okay, I'll watch that. What do you think are some of the myths and misconceptions that you notice people have with regards to sex and dating and people with disabilities I wouldn't say I'm totally sure I think it's just I don't know do you think there's an assumption that there's like you know if you have a disability there's therefore a significant lack of sexual desire for example like is that a myth or misconception that you have experienced or noticed people having I suppose I think so I think part of it is just you know I mean particularly for me is that I had a lot of ableism built up within myself. I mean, like I said, I'd been doing sport using my whole body my entire life.

And I think, you know, just completely unknowingly had built up a lot of those misconceptions. up a lot of those misconceptions uh myself in terms of you know not really understanding how um you know sexual desire works for people with disabilities i hadn't you know really thought about that i'd sort of you know like let's say lazily assumed that um you know not that was it for for them but possibly that it wasn't they weren't as valid an option and i've realized that that's totally wrong and uh and it after my injury it took me a long time to to break down that internalized ableism um but i've realized that yeah like like i said before is, people with disabilities or whatever are totally valid, intimate beings, sexual beings,

and there's nothing really different in terms of their wants and desires. What would you like to see more of on screen when it comes to representing people with disabilities and their romantic relationships because I think popular culture does make a big difference in terms of tackling that ableism um because it you know it's the closest thing to I guess eliciting empathy and getting people to kind of uh engage with the story in that way, I suppose. Yeah, I think I just want to see more representation across the spectrum, really, because at the end of the day,

people with disabilities are everything. They have their husbands, sons, they lose their jobs, they go through financial hardship, everything that anyone else would go through, someone with a disability equally goes through. So I just want to sort of see disabled people in everything, really. And then as soon as we get that and the stories that we see disabled people in,

if the story is completely separate to their disability, then that's life, isn't it? That's the fact that I'm in a wheelchair doesn't stop the fact that I have to go to you know Morrison's or whatever it's not it's not the entirety of my being it's just a means of transport yeah I think I just want to see more there have been some um quite criticized representations in the past um specifically i'm thinking of me before you the jojo moore's book that was made into a film that paints a fairly bleak picture uh it's safe to say um you know i won't describe the plot for those who haven't

seen the film but you know the character that Sam Claflin plays it's um it's not the most uh I mean what did you think of that I suppose I mean I I like I said I think it's bleak but um what did you think of that of that story and also the fact that obviously then that instance you had an able-bodied actor playing that character? Yeah, I mean, I haven't seen it. I've got no desire to see it at all. I really respect Sam Claflin and Emilia Clarke in their other roles. I feel, yeah, I don't really have, you know,

too much to say on that just simply because i don't see it as a valid uh you know it's it's not a film that intrigues me in any way. And I think perhaps even like the, it's just the ignorance of it, you know, and you just know how, you know, a book becomes popular, then the book has to be made into a movie. I think it's just the circus somewhat of the industry just following where the money is.

So I've got no ill will towards um sam or i mean for taking that but i just don't um yeah i just don't rate it as a story to to say because that's if if the only time that you're going to make a story about someone with a disability is you know questioning whether anyone could ever dare to live with a disability is, you know, questioning whether anyone could ever dare to live with a disability, then it's just, all right, come on, I don't, that's not a story. I'd rather see people with disabilities existing, not in an existential crisis at every single waking moment, because that's not life. That's not something I'm interested in seeing can I ask what you would like if Isaac does return in the next season of Sex Education

what you would like for the character do you think that he should get back with Maeve what would you like to happen to him I just want to get out the caravan park quite frankly you know yeah because i think he's got so much to offer the world of moordale and um he's got chaos he's a very chaotic being um and he has got chaos to spread um throughout the entirety of moordale not just be confined to the um the caravan park and fingers crossed for that um because yeah there's a lot more i want to do with him yeah i agree yeah i agree i'd love to see him at some more parties and that kind of thing yeah he's a chaotic but he's fun to watch yeah agent of chaos yeah um it's time for our lessons in love segment so this is the part of the show where I ask every guest to share something valuable that they've learned from their previous relationship experiences.

So, George, what is your lesson in love today? Part of it is just respecting one another's space and not feeling the need to exist with someone for the outside world so you're with someone because you're into them not because of the validation that being with them is going to give you from other people you know we live in a world with you know instagram and twitter constantly if if your existence is predicated on pleasing others rather than pleasing yourself and your partner then it's then it becomes a very shallow superficial existence and i think i've learned in my experiences that being in the moment and not being um not living for a snapshot of you um that you can post on it on the instagram the

the focus on the experience of itself um that's probably the most thing yeah i think it's something that we can't really talk about enough really because it's because relationships for so many people have become commodities for people who have x amount of instagram followers you know it's like oh couple goals and date night and whatever and these are people who you know they'll then get hashtag gifted a date night at a fancy restaurant or whatever but the that trickles down and we live in this culture now I think think, where, you know, people put pressure on one another to post about each other on their social media profiles, the idea being that if you don't post about one another,

it's like you're not in a relationship. Well, it's like the thing of, like, was it pics or it didn't happen? Exactly, yeah. Like, no. Like, the things you're going to look back on are not going to be, oh, that that photo I took of, you know, us two wearing our dressing gowns together. Got, you know, however many likes it's going to be. No, I had a really, really fantastic, you know, weekend away with you. Yeah, it's hard though. You have to actively choose not to engage in it, though, because I think we're conditioned to care about that and we're conditioned to find validation in that. Yeah, and I think that, you know, if that's what you want to do, if you want to post it, post whole chapter on it called couple goals where because I just I just find it really fascinating because here I am interrogating

it and criticizing it but at the same time I used to agonize about the fact that my boyfriend hadn't posted a picture of me on social media and then it wasn't even just that it was the fact that oh he posted about me on his story but not on his grid and it's that there's a difference yeah sure and it is but it's it drives me mad I can I can criticize it and say it's ridiculous but I'm culpable of it as well so that's what I mean you have to like i'm so i certainly um as well in terms of you know there's the i mean we're all we're on a process of simultaneously trying to become better people but you know we we make we make mistakes and sometimes we do wander into the self-indulgent parts of living for other people um you know just for their validation but yeah i think just live

live for yourself live with the live for the people that you love i think that's probably the main thing that's it for today thank you so much for listening if you're a new listener to millennial love you can subscribe to us on apple podcasts spotify acast or anywhere else please do comment and leave us a rating too so that more people can find us. You can keep up to date with everything to do with the show on Instagram. Just search Millennial Love. See you soon. Whether you're in your running era, Pilates era, or yoga era, dive into Peloton workouts that work with you. From meditating at your kid's game to mastering a strength program, they've got everything you need to keep knocking down your goals.

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