Love Lives - Sexual grooming and manipulation with Lisa Taddeo and Sally Baker

Episode Date: November 1, 2019

This week Olivia is joined by author and journalist Lisa Taddeo and senior therapist Sally Baker to discuss sexual grooming and manipulation.The conversation focuses on Lisa's bestselling book, Three Women, which examined the sex and relationship lives of three very different American women, one of whom, Maggie, was exploited by her high school teacher. What was it about that relationship that became abusive and how common are stories such as Maggie's?On a lighter note, we also discuss how Sex and the City impacted our own dating lives and the decisions we made in love.Support this show http://supporter.acast.com/millenniallove. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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Hello and welcome to Millennial Love, a podcast from The Independent focusing on everything to do with sexuality, relationships, identity and more. We touch on a wide variety of topics, ranging from how to have feminist sex to how dating has changed in the post-MeToo era. I'm your host Olivia Petter and today on the program I'm joined by author and journalist Lisa Dedeo and senior therapist Sally Baker to discuss child grooming and abuse. Welcome both, thank you for joining me. Thank you for having me. So Lisa, you recently wrote a brilliant book documenting the sex lives and relationship lives of three women with very different stories, I suppose. But the one that we wanted to focus on today was that of Maggie,

who was sexually groomed by her high school teacher. So I guess my first question for you is, how did you find Maggie? I was in a coffee shop in Medora, North Dakota, which is a very, like, cowboy part of the country. And I was following up on a lead that there were a group of immigrant women who were working in the coffee shop and being trucked out to the local oil fields

to have sex with men for money. And while I was doing this, I was reading, I was having a coffee in that coffee shop, and I was reading a local newspaper, and I read about Maggie's story. And a trial had just ended wherein she had brought charges up against her former English teacher with whom she'd had an alleged consensual relationship when she was 16 and 17. And the trial had found him, had found mostly in his favor.

Two of the charges were considered a mistrial, but the rest of them exonerated him. And I was just, what I read about in the paper was that the text messages had not been recovered but there were these hours upon hours of phone calls after 11 p.m and midnight and I was just so you know struck by that and that nobody was really talking about it or they were saying he was helping her so I drove to Fargo the next day and introduced myself to her mother. And that's how it started. How open was she to sharing her story with you? It was difficult at first because

she had been terribly misused by the local media in Fargo where she was living. So it was hard at first. But then I think the desire to have finally have her story story heard by a non-judgmental you know like all the media were basically like you know either dismissing her version of events or you know calling her names it's a really hard story to read as well because you see the way that the teacher uh his name's Aaron, he is named Teacher of the Year at the high school. He seems to face no real consequences for his actions, whereas Maggie seems to be completely shamed. And there are protesters outside the trial when it's going on, calling her a liar. And obviously she only told her parents what had happened years after is that

right yes so i wonder obviously with things like child grooming and and what is essentially a form of sexual abuse is what happened to maggie sally how common do you think stories like this are because it's it's quite hard to tell because I imagine lots of women don't actually come forward. It's massively underreported and it happens so covertly as well. But I think the drive to bear witness, like Maggie had, to tell your story tends to come out, but it can come out decades later. It's not unusual. And then not to be believed and to be vilified feels like another layer of abuse. It's very hard. And you often see that being used against victims, I think, when they do wait years. Yes. Yeah.

They're almost unprovable crimes, aren't they? Because there aren't often any witnesses. that sexual abuse of children is violent rape with injuries is too limited because love, seduction, grooming, we should really call it love and seduction because grooming kind of covers it up for what it is. These young people are abused through the power of seduction. With Maggie, it was consensual, you know, and she never, she never said that it wasn't. But, you know, the, the narrative is what is hurtful, because, you know, she, she was a young woman who us, you know, from the wrong side of the tracks to use a cliche that is, you know, the way that I think that a lot of people described it in the local media. And here was this man, this vaunted man in her mind, who was her authority, an authority

figure who told her she was worth something in the world, that she was valued. And, you know, I think that she didn't really know what she wanted from it. She just was pleased by the attention and grateful for it. He was telling her she was smart, you know, and then it gradually began to build with these text messages. And she said, which I found so illuminating was that, you know, I didn't want to cross a line like he was. I was very afraid to cross the line. He made me afraid. And so he was the, so whenever he would sort of bring her to this, to this point where she had a choice whether or not to take it over the edge,

she always didn't. And then he would kind of wait a few days and go, you know what I wanted to tell you was, and she would say what to, so it was this very prolonged courting that, you know, I think, as you said, grooming is not, it's kind of, you know, it's a limited way of describing it because I wouldn't have described what he did quite as grooming. Like I met with a group of pedophiles in Intercourse, Pennsylvania,

of all places, and they were in this halfway house for pedophiles and that was grooming like this man was uh you know over the years for like five or six years grooming his stepdaughter and buying her presents and this was a different situation and that's not to say that what he did was not unequivocally wrong but to call it grooming as you say makes a lot of people go well it wasn't grooming and it it wasn't, but it was still wrong. But I think even with grooming, and we've had really serious cases here in the UK that are still being brought to public attention. It's that incremental attention and stretching of boundaries and also the power imbalance. So rich versus poor, you know, right side of the tracks versus wrong, the age thing, the experience thing. So you've got young women or young boys being preyed upon

by people who are much more experienced and much more knowing. It's a cynical act. Incremental. Yeah, I think a part of the book that made me feel most uncomfortable about the relationship between Aaron and Maggie was he, he took her copy of Twilight, which obviously is something that teenage girls obsess over, and he made notes through it and said certain things, reminded him of her. That feels incredibly manipulative. Totally. Yeah.

So Maggie was kind of described by some reviewers as sort of like a Monica Lewinsky kind of archetype, like this idea of this irresistible young nymph who purposefully sets out to destroy the life of an older man. And that's a narrative I think we see time and time again with cases such as these. So do you think that is a reason why Maggie's story wasn't believed and probably still isn't believed by a lot of people?

Oh, absolutely. I mean, I think that, you know, for the people who, like there are members of the jury who said, even if the notes were unequivocal, even if the expert had found them to be, like she said that it was, the actual terminology she used was not very strong. It was very strong and said it's definitely not Maggie writing it, but it wasn't strong enough to, you know, convict Knodel in that sense. But that said, some of the jurors were like, even if it were his, I wouldn't have convicted. like that where it's it's like you know the idea of okay so what if he did it it's still your it's one your fault that it happened and two your fault that you're wrecking this man's life yeah and it's not dissimilar to the Michael Jackson right even Neverland documentary yeah and those those men yeah it was very hard for Maggie to watch that I'm sure it was and it

triggered a lot of my clients yeah Aaron his Aaron, his his wife, you know, she she was aware by the end of the affair between Maggie and Aaron, wasn't she? And she testified and completely stuck by her husband. Why do you think she did that? You know, I've thought a lot about that. And I think a lot of people are like, well, she's you know, that's that's not she made, you know, she's at fault's not, she made, you know, she's at fault too. And I, you know, obviously a part of me agrees with that. And then this other part of me thinks, you know, she didn't, she didn't do it. Uh, she was probably as felled by what happened in, in her own way as, you know, in not her own, you know, very much in a different way as what happened to Maggie

at a certain point. It's like, you know, there's these three children that you have with this man. And to put him in jail must be a very difficult decision to make. And scary for her. Yeah, right. I mean, you're literally, not only has your whole life been upended by finding this out,

but now your whole life is about to be upended again. Yeah. What do you think when you were reporting on Maggie's story? Because you spent four years with her, right? Yeah, three, at least three years. I wasn't there for three years, but I was talking to her for three years. What was one of the most shocking revelations you discovered when you were with her? When it came late, actually, that's, it came late. And there were many shocking parts. But

I also knew a lot of the things from the trial. So it was mainly her giving me the flesh to the skeleton of what I knew. The most shocking thing was something she told me later, which was that she had long extensions on her nails so that she couldn't pull her own eyelashes out. So that was quite... Wow, so she was self-harming. Yeah, but it didn't come out until later, so she wasn't... You know, like a lot of these things,

it's not at the forefront of your brain. The truth is so often in the pauses. Yes, totally. And it's great that's not like at the forefront of your brain the truth is so often in the pauses totally yeah and it's great that you stuck with her long enough to hurt to disclose exactly yeah i think that's part of it the length of time is really you know makes it so powerful yeah sally why do you think people such as maggie who clearly have such powerful stories to tell and have the evidence you know to a certain degree why do you think they aren't believed societal norms don't allow women to have any kind of sexuality of their own um there was a survey recently about women's sexual confidence in their 20s 30s 40s all the way

to 60s and women who had the lowest sexual confidence about themselves and their own sexual abilities were in their 20s so women in their 20s are really struggling and it gets slightly better in the 30s and by the time you're 60 where people are you fall away from the gaze then actually women come in women take a long time to come into their power we kind of take the scenic route and kids get in the way of all of that as well and men's expectations and then society's expectations are part of that so they're not believed we're not given traction or allowed our own sexuality yep 100% yeah all modified through the male gaze do you think part of that is the reason why Maggie was so easily manipulated by Aaron in those initial stages yeah I mean

exactly you know about the male gaze it's sort of it's for I think a woman for many women in so easily manipulated by Aaron in those initial stages. Yeah, I mean, exactly. You know, about the male gaze, it's sort of, it's for, I think, a woman, for many women in the beginning, it's largely performative. So, you know, you're trying to appease, and to, like, you know, Lena, the suburban housewife in the story, you know, she had having this extramarital affair, and she knew that if she told this lover that she was too, he was married too,

if you told this lover how into him she was, that he would pull away. And I think with Maggie, you know, it was the same sort of, there is a, if she wanted too much, it would be off-putting. Yeah. In fact, women want so little and are grateful for so little. Yes, exactly. And that's why attention is so seductive

because what the teacher did was pay her attention. Yeah, exactly. And validate her. Going back to Aaron then, I know you've said in interviews, Lisa, before that you wanted to explore desire rather than sex. Do you think Aaron ever desired Maggie or do you think it was sort of just about power and asserting his control, finding something that was missing in his relationship?

Yeah, I think it was, I think it was almost exclusively like what many men do is reliving their past. I think it's a part of that. I do think he, you know, I think that she was a sort of cipher for that part of him that, you know, he got married fairly young to his wife who he had met in college. So I think that, you know, like Tiger Woods, which I also wrote a story about, like Tiger Woods with, you know, all of the affairs, it was like all of these women were suddenly all over him and he hadn't had that in high school and college. And I think that you see a lot of that with men who, which I'm sure you're aware of, who haven't had that. But also, you know, at the same time, I think that you get

confused in the beginning and you don't know what it is. I think that happens to a lot of people, both men and women. And she was this, she is a lovely young woman, but she was this, you know, this kid. And he said things like, you know, I love, like, I love the way you swing your legs in class. That was a thing that, you know, she would like just sit on a desk and swing her legs like a kid, you know. And so, and he was probably thinking of the way in high school that he might have liked a young woman who did that. I don't think that's incredibly awful.

I think it's normal, of course, but I mean, not completely normal, but I think that it's obviously the acting on it that is the issue. The problem. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

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with Jesse Crookshank is not available on Facebook. It's out now wherever you get your podcasts. Acast helps creators launch, grow, and monetize their podcasts everywhere. Acast.com Aaron's behavior still feels abusive. It's not necessarily sexual abuse. They never had actual penetrative sex. But it is still abuse, isn't it? It's still abuse. Yeah. Could you explain why it is still abuse, Sally? her because that that's the we can see the outcome the effect on her has been so negative and so enduring it's been very hard for maggie to carry on with her life hasn't it yeah i think it's just

as much him as it is the society around us yes like if if you know if there's been a sort of guidebook for her in a sense um i think it would have been it would have been different but you know also part of the abuse is in the reticence on his part in the sort of reticence that when you know people in when it's two adults that reticence is still painful but it's painful in a way that you must

endure because it's life you know and with Maggie like he didn't want to have penetrative sex until she was 18. I mean, obviously the other stuff is just as, you know, but he had these, these things he was putting in place. Yeah. His rules, she had to follow them. She knew that if she didn't, it would be over. So that's part of it too. I there's a certain like he's not letting her have anything any element of control is completely his and that's obviously an adult authority figure move

yeah the enduring nature of sexual abuse and how long it takes to get resolution to be able to bear witness to your story and then and then be resolved of the pain of it can be a lifetime's journey unfortunately because he had so many rules didn't he he also said to her you know you can never call me first um he asked her to put his wife's phone number into her phone um just to be like if you ever see this number don't pick up because the way that the way that the wife found out uh am i right in thinking she called him on his birthday or texted him and and she saw yes maggie texted him while he was in the shower right oh okay because she said you know i didn't know i knew there was a rule but you know it was someone i loved's birthday i was was like, how can I not, how can I obey the rule when it's, is he, you know, am I just, it was, so that was her breaking the rule ended up being exactly what he sort of, you know, set it to be.

Yeah. And so that was, and then he calls her and the snowstorm and it's just like the end of her world as she knows it. She was devastated when it ended wasn't she really i mean i think that you know first of all like you said about the twilight you know things we have as young women and young men like and for lena was the princess bride now for me it was too the princess bride is like something molds you as a child if you're a reader or um you know a lover of film yes something is you know sticks in your brain and that's how you kind of view what you might want from a love story and for maggie it

was very much twilight yeah and then to have someone say you know i am your vampire lover to have that you know to draw parallels and say, this is like us, this is like, you know, that is so, it's such a, it's such a very powerful mythology. Yes. But also the romantic mythology is almost as damaging to young women as the pornographic mythology. But the pornographic mythology is stronger these days, because we've got our boys are being educated online with, with expectations of sexual activity from their partners from day one. What do you think is the impact of a book such as Lisa's Sally in terms of changing societal views

and trying to debunk some of the myths that we have about female sexuality? I think it's going to be a great conversation starter. I think it's going to expand all of our knowledge about women. It's a really important book. Yeah, I do. Thank you. I think we're going to move on to our Lessons in Love segment. So this is the part of the podcast where I ask a guest to share something that they have learned in their past relationship experiences, either about themselves or about another person.

Lisa, would you like to start by sharing yours? You know, I think that, I think the judgment is something that I've seen so much and the judgment of what you love and how you love. And, you know, I always think about, obviously, a lot of my lessons in love came from Sex and the City, which was my, right? So, you know, I think there's so much in there that's so real and true, like the he's just not that into you thing. One of the things, and I know it's so, it feels so anti-feminist to say these days, and you know, anti-feminist to say these days. And, you know, it's like the same, like my mother would say things like, you know, don't, if don't give the milk away, whatever, you know, don't, what is it?

I'm like, blanking. They won't buy the cow if you give them milk. So, you know, things like that are so, they're so, they're not, they're, they're antiquated, right? But at the same time, they're not, they're, they're antiquated, right? But at the same time, there is, there's a biological reason why that's true, why older generations have told us that and pass it down. And so I guess one of the lessons I've learned is that, is to be, to sort of fight indifference with indifference, to, to try as hard as you can to do that. Only because if someone's being indifferent to you, you saying, I want you, I don't know that that's the power move,

whether you're a man or a woman. So that's my list. It's funny you mentioned Sex and the City because I actually think, even though it is an old show now and there are so many messages in that show that do seem outdated, it's interesting to have a conversation about it

because the whole Aiden versus Big debate, which is something that fans of the show continue to talk about, it's so funny because people always use those two men as sort of tropes to be like, okay, so Big is the man who is going to treat you like crap and he's going to pick you up and drop you when he wants. But he's also incredibly suave and sophisticated and cool. And yes, he's cheated on Carrie. He's not treated her well.

Then you've got Aiden, who is just the most benevolent, kindest guy, treats Carrie like she's a princess, and yet Carrie chooses big. And it's such an interesting debate because people will be like oh I'm more of an Aiden person or more of a big person right Lisa you're an Aiden person or a big person oh god I mean I'm but like I'm both I would totally well she did do both no pun intended but um you know and I think in the end, Aiden somewhat left her, but she was always into big. You know, I don't know. I'm married to an Aiden, but I have.

So I guess I chose it, but I have everything prior to that was a big. I think that's probably quite a similar trajectory for quite a lot of women. I think it is. I'm on my second husband. He's an Aiden. Was the first one a big? Oh, yeah. Oh, that's. yeah see it's so relatable

the older you get you're like you know what you have to get your mistakes out the way exactly what about you Sally what's your lesson you'd like to share I think I see the fallout in my practice of women who have internalized negative judgments

from men and they make it existential rejection of their whole self so there's no kind of therapy that can stop bad things happening to you but it's how we make a judgment about the bad things that happen to us like the really extreme bad things you know the rapes and the assaults all the way through to being breadcrumbed or gaslighted or just dropped you know ghosted when women take that right to the core of them and hurt themselves with those judgments, I want them to stop doing that. I want them to find the resilience. We're all learning lessons all of the time. And to be a

bit more Teflon, be a bit more nonstick, and let that stuff go over our heads and not hurt us right to our core because that takes years to recover from how do you think we go about doing that though I know from previous experiences I um before I was in a relationship I would date people who I met on dating apps and they would just treat treat me like like treat me like crap I mean I would as well but it's just you I think you feel vindicated to do that with people you meet online because there's no strings. And, you know, you don't have any mutual friends.

You haven't necessarily met that many times. Oh, yeah, they're out of context completely. Yeah. How do you think you find the emotional strength to get yourself through that? I think you need different strategies. I think to put all of your effort onto online dating or Tinder or whatever the app is can be too much.

I also recommend that my women go out. Do the face-to-face thing. Especially if they don't fit an archetype of the perfect, beautiful, young person. When you meet people and you're animated and you're interested and you're engaged, that's actually very seductive. So get out there. Unless you're going to cop off with your postman, I think you should be out there. Yeah, I like that. I like your postman i think you should be out there yeah i like that i like the postman

yeah that's all we have time for this week on millennial love follow independent lifestyle on social media to keep up to date with what's coming up on the show and if you're a new listener remember to subscribe to this series on apple podcasts spotify acast or wherever you listen also leave us a rating and comment with your thoughts on our conversation today. Until next time, thanks a lot for listening. Goodbye. I'm Jessi Kirkshank and on my podcast, Phone a Friend, Here's a show that we recommend. I didn't even know what thirsty meant until there was all these headlines. And I get schooled by a tween.

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