Love Lives - Shame and sexuality, with Will Young

Episode Date: August 13, 2021

Support Millennial Love with a donation today: https://supporter.acast.com/millenniallove This week, Olivia speaks to Will Young. The two discuss the shame we attach to sexuality and how Will was encouraged to keep his own sexuality a secret when he entered into the public eye as a Pop Idol contestant in 2001. They also discuss the positives and negatives of labelling one’s sexuality, and what the music industry can do to become more inclusive of those in the LGBT+ community and adapt contemporary attitudes towards gender. Finally, they discuss his new album, Crying on the Bathroom Floor, which is out now. Follow the show on Instagram at @millennial_loveSupport this show http://supporter.acast.com/millenniallove. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Acast powers the world's best podcasts. Here's a show that we recommend. will not die hosting the Hills after show. I get thirsty for the hot wiggle. I didn't even know a thirsty man until there was all these headlines. And I get schooled by a tween. Facebook is like, and now that's what my grandma's on. Thank God phone a friend with Jesse Crookshank is not available on Facebook. It's out now wherever you get your podcasts. Acast helps creators launch, grow, and monetize their podcasts everywhere. ACAST.com. Hello and welcome to Millennial Love, a podcast from The Independent on everything to do with love, sexuality, identity and more. Before we get started with this week's episode, I want to remind

my lovely listeners that my book Millennial Love which is based on this very podcast is out now. It combines memoir with social commentary and interviews with previous podcast guests. You can pick up a copy from all good bookshops. Now on to the episode I'm very excited this week to be joined by Will Young. We talked about the shame we attach to sexuality as a society and how Will was encouraged to keep his own sexuality a secret when he entered into the public eye as a pop idol contestant in 2001. We also discussed the positives and negatives of labelling one's sexuality and what the music industry can do to be more inclusive and adapt to contemporary attitudes towards gender. Enjoy the show.

Hello, Will, how are you doing? Sorry I'm late. I've sort of moved beyond lateness, haven't I really? It's a whole other... You're worth waiting for it's totally fine it's totally fine thank you um can you start us off by talking a bit about your new album crying on the bathroom floor well it's a covers album I knew I wanted to do an an album covering female artists and then and then I kind of knew that I didn't want to do obvious covers um I suppose sometimes I think why don't you just do the obvious what's wrong with the obvious but um I think it's just trying to make something a bit more interesting you know an individual and um and and then and then i started i went in with with a couple of my members of my band um and richard x the producer came on board as well and then we just started doing sort of little versions of you know like a verse and a chorus of various songs and then it just started becoming apparent that there was a

type of artist that I was that was kind of working for this record which was I did a Bat for Lashes song Daniel and then I did yeah I love that song I love that song and then I did a Licky Lee song and then I did a Solange Knowles song and it just sort of suddenly going from Solange Knowles to Kate Bush sort of didn't seem right you know so then actually then the artists kind of started dictating the record weirdly um and um and then Moona um which is the crying on the bathroom floor um song and then i just thought that would be a really funny title for an album it's a great title for an album also we've all spent time crying on the bathroom floor particularly particularly when it comes to love exactly but yeah so then then they kind of like it sort of all worked out quite quickly after that.

That's amazing. And how did it feel kind of taking on the songwriting of those women? And kind of, did you try and get into the headspace that they were in when they were writing those songs? Did you try and channel the same kind of feelings? I didn't because I knew that I couldn't. try and channel the same kind of feelings I didn't because I knew that I couldn't um so I mean for example I know that Daniel's written about Karate Kid which I just think is amazing um so I just kind of very naturally went with with really very deliberately very very little thought and lots of instinct. I just think it's the best way to go. You know, very little thought in terms of what and why and how, but obviously a lot of care, you know,

with what's working and what isn't. And songs like Elizabeth Taylor, Claire Maguire's song, you know, was immediately, I think because I act as well, it was just, it's a bit like reading a script. It was just very, it was, I was presented as, you know, something so what's amazing. I've never said this before, but what's amazing about, cause, cause acting like I'll read a script and I'll be like, okay, I get an an idea and the better the script the more obvious her idea is you know

of what's going on and what I would what I think I could do with it um but what's amazing about music is you get presented with the whole atmosphere as well so it's not just the words but it's not just the words, but it's the delivery of it and the music. And so like a song like Elizabeth Taylor just felt sort of this amazing kind of like grandiose sort of tragedy. And for me, I can I just was in it immediately, you know, in it just immediately. So I just was like, well, I know what I'm going to do with this one. Yeah. It's very, I think, I think out of anything, any form of art, I think music can elicit the strongest emotions, I think, in a concert. Yeah, because there's so, there's so, so much in it, isn't there?

Because there's voice, there's word and there's, you know, know music going on in the background so it's sort of three in one um yeah so it's very evocative um and then others you know Richard X would sort of work his magic and you know one of the ones that I love actually is the Licky Lee song because it's so different from what it is and and and I'm really proud of what what he's what Richard's done on that because it's really it's really interesting production and it's the only way that I think we could have done that song because otherwise it would have just been a bad version of the original. Now I could talk to you about music all day because it would be very fun but we are here to talk about relationships and love and sex and dating so I guess I want to start off that portion by kind of talking about your book that came out last year

to be a gay man um you wrote about so many important subjects in that book I think particularly the kind of hook of it was you were talking about gay shame and how for years you felt like your sexuality was something to be ashamed of when when did that shame kind of start for you and how how has it kind of mutated over the years yeah so I wanted to write a book on gay shame that I wanted to do it in a way that was relatable um and other and I didn't you know I sometimes I think reading books that are written by a psychotherapist but a psychotherapist who isn't necessarily relating their own story you know can be not relatable um so the only way that I thought I could write a book on gay shame was to kind of forensically track where at what stages how why how would it where would it sit

my body how would it what would it make me think you know it would where would it sit in my body? How would it, what would it make me think? You know, where it would come in at various stages in my life. So I would say from like the age of four, you know, it started coming in. And that ties in with senses of, you know, gender norms, sticking to, you know, boys do this, girls like this. Who I, you know, I knew I was sensitive. I wasn't very sporty. As a young kid, I ended up being quite sporty, but I wasn't. You know, my knees knocked when I ran. When I ran, I had a lisp.

I wore glasses. And I fancied Bobby Ewing and not Pam. And, you know, so very young. But it was really interesting to write. How's it mutated? Well, I mean, shame in general is the most horrific um life killing emotion um because the very thing that we need to do when we feel shame is to connect to others but it's the very last thing you want to do um so it's a very tricky kind of catch-22 shame and i describe it as like a sort of black tarry substance and it's you know some people talk about you know destruction of the soul and you know so yeah soul destruction and it can do that um when i then kind of learned about

the topic of gay shame and what it was, because also then it all makes sense. You know, it's like growing up, knowing that one's very different existing on the peripheries of heteronormative society. Also the times I was growing up in, you know, being told you're evil, all the messages that are coming through from doing Bible classes to then I was a child of the 80s so I would you know be watching adverts about HIV and AIDS on the on the TV very scary adverts um you know that that all those messages were that you're not going to have a nice life um when I learned about the topic of what gay shame was

and that even though once you've come out that doesn't necessarily mean that you've dealt with all the backlog of self-hate um and internalized homophobia um you know then I worked through it and and the point of the book is also that I show how I worked through it and um you know that and came could have came through it you said it was interesting to write what what did you find most interesting about it and was it was it difficult for you to kind of tap back into those moments of so much shame from your childhood when I suppose you didn't even realise that you had a right to to feel the way that you were feeling yeah it was I think if I hadn't done the work I wouldn't have been able to have done it authentically or maybe if at all um and what was interesting about it was because I was doing it from a mindful place. You know, I'd sort of sit and I'd be like, right, now I'm aged 16.

And I literally just float. There's a saying in somatic therapy, which is when you do body-based therapy, particularly for trauma, our body holds on to traumatic energy. So you sort of bypass the mind. So I'd sort of sit and float myself back to being 16 shut my eyes and I'd be like oh oh that's not a nice feeling you know and then I'd go with it so I'd be like processing it myself you'd be like oh dear oh god that's not nice you know and then I'd write

I'd write and be like I remember this and I remember what it felt like. You know, one of the things I talk about is, you know, I genuinely felt like I was the most disgusting, like perverted person because I fancied my friends, my male friends. And I went to an all boys school and I used to look at their penises in the showers because I fancy boys, know so that's what you do like if I was 15 straight and I showered with girls then I'd look at the girls boobs but you know I looked at the boys willies because that's what I fancied but it was kind of a revelation so I was like well of course I did because that's that's what I fancied so once because I was coming at it now from a place of like not feeling unnatural not feeling

wrong it's like it was entirely natural and it was really interesting to own that and not be ashamed because it's the other thing about shame and it's why I talk a lot about um you know stuff that I can feel emotionally in my life because I own it for myself and hopefully give other people permission to not feel ashamed of feeling anything other than happy and perfect you know is own it and share it and speak it out and so it was quite amazing that I was writing you know about staring at my friend's willies in the shower, because I just would never have been able to have said that, and not be ashamed of it, so it was things like that were kind of like, kind of amazing moments for me, and it was, and I genuinely just found it interesting, because I was like, wow, that is how shame took hold then. Wow. That's what happened then.

Anything is interesting. I have this, I used to have this therapist and she'd say, you know, be, be curious, be wonderfully curious about something, you know, which is one of those frustrating things a therapist said when you're like in deep emotional pain, well, be curious about that you know but actually annoyingly I was kind of being wonderfully curious about it yeah I think actually I think that's such good advice and you can apply that to so much like I I will very often have a gut reaction to something that that maybe isn't that maybe as a result of

the way I've been conditioned to think and now what I find myself doing more and more is when I have these thoughts that maybe aren't thoughts that I feel completely comfortable with I kind of try and challenge myself and ask myself why do I think that way and why is my gut reaction to slut shame this person on love island or whatever do you know what I mean it's like you have to just use that curiosity and try and question and that's how you unlearn things. Yes, and that's a brilliant place to come from because it's really,

then we're really taking inventory of ourselves and keeping our side of the street clean, which is a true path to, you know, fulfilment, I think. Yeah, and it's all you can do. I think so, yeah. And so I want to ask you about when you came off Pop Idol. It seems so weird. That was so long ago.

How many years ago was that? It's the 20th anniversary next year. God, I can't believe it's been 20 years. So shortly after that um and correct me if I'm wrong here but you write about in the book how the Mail on Sunday was going to publish a piece about your sexuality which up until that point wasn't public information how how did you feel when you found out that they were going to kind of take control of your life in that way and publish something that was so personal and private

without your consent well it's funny because first of all you know times were very different then um to a point um and and what i mean by that is the power of the media print media you know there was no social media around there's no twitter no instagram any of that so it's very different so the narrative the only way that an artist could there was no youtube any of that that could take control of their narrative was by either putting a statement out a printed statement or what putting something up on your website you know it really wasn't there was no like you know um easy quick video um or a tweet so the media were a lot more powerful then um and i'm probably spanning all areas from celebrity music film to, you know, politics and the power that they held then. So it wasn't really a surprise. In fact.

In fact, I just sort of knew it would be the case because even going wanting to be a pop star, being openly gay, I knew that that was, you know, going to happen, that someone would find out quite easily that I was gay. And that if you're in pop, people seem to be interested in people's private lives. So actually, I was always going to talk about being gay, but in a different way, with a broadsheet but um would you have preferred to do it in an interview setting and just kind of offer that information up yourself as opposed to it being because I think I know what you're getting as opposed to it being this kind of big expose because obviously that sensationalizes it yeah exactly I actually just I think I probably would have

preferred to have not even made it an issue and even at the time I remember thinking this is so boring you know I do remember thinking my god you know there's wars going on and poverty and this really is just so boring and unnecessary and unnecessarily stressful. But in terms of, you know, a paper going, we're going to out someone. I think it was interesting because even then at the time, I don't think it was legally allowed to do it you were weren't legally allowed to do it um but papers did um so it was it was kind of just I was just meant I had to just have lots of phone calls with my litigation lawyer at the weekend which I was just like I'd rather be doing something else but it was scary you know it was scary to because then else. But it was scary, you know, it was scary to,

because then also, you know, it was a sense of, of actually of safety, you know, because I didn't feel safe as a gay man. And if I couldn't choose how visible I wanted to be, you know, it was, it was scary. So that was probably the hardest thing about it. That was probably the hardest thing. I think it's really important what you said about how it how it's just boring, because it should be boring to talk about someone's sexuality because it shouldn't be this huge big reveal and unfortunately you know when when philip scofield came out that was only what last year and i

remember you know i'm a i'm a news reporter that story was huge it was huge everyone wanted to talk about it it was the top of google trends it was all anyone was talking about on Twitter for at least, I'd say, three days. It was like all we were made to write. It was all that we were like, you know, kind of told to focus on, you know, because people wanted to read about it. And that was only like last year, I think. And it's just, it's sad and disappointing

that we're still at a point where that is such a big important kind of conversation in quotation marks yeah it's two different things I think because on one hand you know in the end of the day I suppose someone who's in very much entrenched in the in the public eye because of their job and has you know it was newsworthy wasn't it and it was sort of almost made i suppose it was made more newsworthy because it was addressed on live tv you know so it was the whole thing was seemed seemed quite an interesting episode and i do agree with you it sort of seemed perhaps a little bit more um uh dramatic you know in terms of reactions and things um uh but that's that's you know people

have to write about something don't they i hope that there wasn't as much sort of bigotry and, you know, the way that it was being approached as there was, you know, years ago. I hope that that's changed. I like to think it has. Breaking news happens anywhere, anytime. Police have warned the protesters repeatedly, get back. CBC News brings the story to you as it happens. Hundreds of wildfires are burning. Be the first to know what's going on and what that means for you and for Canadians. This situation has changed very quickly. Helping make sense of the world when it matters most. Stay in the know. CBC News.

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Visit Peloton at onepeloton.ca. Moving on to talk about gender identity. I know you've said in an interview how you've previously been seen as kind of more feminine and how you know occasionally people would mistake you for a woman on the phone how how has that affected your sense of self when it comes to your gender do you think of it as do you think of it as a fluid kind of evolving process because I think that's a really important conversation that we have been having more and more recently um you know long awaitedly so where are you kind of at with that for me um I do identify as a male um I'm I do I I love for quite a few years now i've sort of i've always liked the looking at my sort of

maternal part um and the reason i disseminate between paternal and maternal is i just look at nature and i just think of the lioness and I'm just like she's badass so you know and sometimes I will be like a lioness you know and I hate people being bullied I hate young people being um uh what's the word you know, not looked after. I hate the damage that can happen to young people and I get like the lioness. So I've really enjoyed embracing that side of me for quite a while now.

And so that's, in terms of fluidity, I've always found a lot of power in that. And in fact, you know, I do quite often bring out that side of me energetically and I enjoy it. And it's a very strong sort of forthright, but very natural sense of of just like this is just going to be the way it's going to be you know and it's amazing how people it's just an energetic thing you know in terms of how you relate to other people in terms of caring for your friends I remember a shaman years ago was telling me about the use of of the jaguar and how you know maybe if you're in a meeting just plop your jaguar on the table in front of the people um you know and and that's what i do if i'm in a meeting i don't feel safe i'll just plonk my you know very um protective female jaguar on the table and it

seems to have the required effect but it's very strange because it's just a it's just a thought thing you know it's a thought and an emotional thing but it really does empower you oh yeah oh yeah yeah yeah so um things like that but gender i think you know it's amazing that people can now I think people are very respectful actually of I was having a conversation the other day about an artist and you know myself and it was someone from a radio station we were both using the correct pronoun we weren't doing it for show it wasn't like we were like being recorded, you know? Yeah. Because we were.

Where do you think the music industry is at in terms of that? Because obviously it's constantly a kind of ongoing discussion about award ceremonies and the way that, you know, the categories are divided into male and female artists, which obviously excludes people like Sam Smith, who identifies non-binary and you know they are one of the few artists I think that you know it's it's an emerging group of non-binary artists but as that continues to grow which I'm sure it will it's going to become

an increasing problem isn't it it's quite difficult that yeah it really is difficult because at present and i and i um you know profess to ignorance here i i only know of a couple who who um identifies non-binary in the uk who would be up for brit awards let's say i'm just yeah trying to simplify it yeah it's quite difficult isn't it because it's sort of how much does something move around or how do you reconfigure i i like i like i think it would be really difficult to have just one category the only reason i'd say that is because i feel like there were less people will you know would win yeah yeah exactly for what that you know for whatever whatever that means you know whatever award ceremonies so I think it's a tricky one um yeah it's really complicated

you have to respect that so it has to be done in a way that um well you just have you know you have to you have to change things around and make it make it work yeah I was talking to a female artist friend of mine who was saying you know she said the same because she was like look I know it's a problem but also she said you know she doesn't want to be competing against men in the same category because then also she knows that there would be fewer women who win those awards because of the sexism that pervades the music industry she was like I want to compete against other women because then I know that more women will be guaranteed to have a space in that industry otherwise it would just be dominated by men and I wonder if if everything was grouped together in one category it would just be men that

would be winning all of the awards well I just think it would it would you know would be much bigger category maybe there needs to be different that there is a way that it can be done um you know respectfully and um yeah but I mean no I wouldn't I wouldn't want to be on the Brits board you're like you're damned if you do you're damned if you don't it's interesting what the people to speak to would be the people that are identifying as non-binary so someone like Sam Smith I don't exactly I don't know what they've said about it but you they have an opinion on it and could maybe they would be the people to ask yeah no I completely agree and I hope they are being considered in it how do you think because

you've been in the public eye for for as we as we discussed nearly 20 years now how has that affected your the way that you relate to your sexuality and and that kind of gay shame that you were talking about earlier because obviously being scrutinized in the press takes an emotional and psychological toll so how do you think that has impacted you in terms of in terms of your sexuality over the last few years and are you are you in a better place with it now well over the last few years I mean I mean well let's say even the last I mean five years in particularly I mean it's a huge difference it's what I'd say is like you only know what you know at the time so so if I look back on how things were 20 years ago the way that I could be treated as a gay man famous or not famous just as a gay man full stop

is so different and what I would put up with you know is so different to what I would put up with now. So at each stage, the way I viewed my sexuality would be, and whatever percentage of that was related to how safe I was as a gay man in the world, how, what my legal rights were um you know what recourse i had to report hate crime you know all those kind of things however much that affected my sense of me as a wider person um would be just what was going on at the time now i i'm very pleased that things are so different. So I think it is. But then it's getting older as well. You know, I get more kind of confident. And so I don't know if I felt consciously unhappy

being a gay man in the early noughties in the uk but i certainly feel consciously happy now that i have so much more um empowerment um and a lot of that has come from socio-political change um so it's a much better place to be I think full stop there needs to be a lot you know I think for transgender people there needs to be you know they are probably 20 years behind um and it's not easy and I think I'm pleased that people are looking at things like NHS funding and you know I'm pleased those conversations are looking at things like NHS funding and you know I'm pleased those conversations are having to happen and and people might get bored of those conversations but they have to become boring for so things are changed so yeah absolutely you know that's how

to be how do you feel about labels because I think this is you know people have very different views on it and some people think you know labeling your sexuality and labeling your gender makes you safer um in some ways but then in other ways there's an argument that it kind of further segregates and ostracizes people of minority sexualities and genders how how do you feel about that yeah it's interesting on that one isn't it because it's like does it how much does making it stand out and matter make it even more um damaging in a way and is is the sense of labeling something that i've just grown up in because that's what was that's what happened and you labeled you know stuff i think for me

where i'm at at the moment is that uh being identifying as gay is a much wider thing to love um and and i and i like that you know i like it's it's a sense of sensibility it's it's what i like talking about it's what it's it's so much more than just um who i choose to love and and and so that's that's quite a brilliant, brilliant thing. I don't find it limiting. But at the same time, quite often, I sort of will forget that I'm gay. And I'll forget that I'm famous or I'll forget that I'm an Aquarius, you know so it's i give it i give it importance when i really feel like it's it's it's i feel like i want to give it importance and it's needed um and and then i'm always really proud to do so but i can see how labels can become even more ostracizing and more delineating and segregating

um at the same time you know we all have points of difference. And it's great to connect with others who share, you know, experiences through those points of difference. Yeah, absolutely. I spoke to Jack Guinness about this a few weeks ago on the podcast about how, you know, so many musicians and Hollywood stars and people in the public eye are still concealing their sexuality because they are worried about how it will affect their job and their status. What do you think needs to happen in the music industry, I guess, specifically for artists to feel safer coming out

and talking openly about their sexuality? I hope that in the music industry it's really not as as bad as it used to be I mean I'd kind of be surprised um I know because of my acting you know how how different it is in the acting world uh that doesn't surprise me um I guess it's different in acting isn't it because this is what I was saying with Jack because in acting it's the whole idea of oh a straight actor playing a straight role as opposed to a gay actor playing a straight and vice versa yeah I've you know lived with that for years you You know, it's like, so again, it's just, it's really bad. It's way more bad in the end. I do think finally it is actually beginning to change.

Well, I think in music, people, unfortunately, once record companies realise that they can earn money out of something then they change I mean that's your that's that's I mean it's it isn't it and it's the same so they'll start realizing oh actually it doesn't matter because we can make money out of this you know and then they push it and it's the same in the film world but there are people who do push envelopes and I think Lil Nas is doing amazing actually his visibility is amazing actually

for me, I don't know there's something he's quite amazing I think I think it the change comes unfortunately will come from the artists and the visibilities and the actors um you know the great thing about I get a sense that people in the music world can be a little bit braver in terms of when they choose to really stick their head, you know, above the parapet. I feel like people in the acting world, for whatever reason, it's like, how many more roles do you want to get?

How much more money do you want to get? You know, do you know what I mean what i mean yeah it's really it's really bleak to bring it down to money but you're so right i think in every industry it boils down to like can we sell this and obviously that's what inhibits a lot of people from from talking about their sexuality openly because perhaps they've built a career based on the assumption that they're straight and that's what has given them the success and therefore it's that risk of changing your public perception huge risk but the thing is I hope that it's it's almost because it brings us back to what you you know when we're talking about the Sunday Mail at the same time you know there's no I wouldn't want to be forcing someone to want to come out who, because I think if you're not comfortable with yourself, then maybe you won't be wanting to talk openly about your sexuality anyway.

I mean, there was an actor who I won't tell you the name of, but I actually effectively outed this person to their publicist in America. But the person was so known in this country that I didn't think anything of it. And, you know, I just thought it was absolutely, I thought it was madness. And I remember, you know, I was very, you know, very apologetic. So that actor was known for being known as gay in the UK, but not in the US? Or how did the publicist not know? I don't know.

But for me, because of the way my mind works, is that I couldn't, I didn't understand why someone would not want to be open about it. You know, I just sort of, only because that was just, I just thought, well, I'd be so unhappy otherwise. But everyone's different, you know? Everyone's different. Yeah, and I guess we just need to respect that, you know? Everyone's different. Yeah, and I guess we just need to respect that, you know,

for some people, we'll just take time. And, you know, it should be their prerogative. It shouldn't be the prerogative of a newspaper, that's for sure. Well, no, it shouldn't be that, no. Or someone outing the person. Were they understanding when it happened did you apologize i apologize yeah they were okay they weren't they weren't too miffed oh no they were quite miffed and they just needed to get over it to be honest fair enough um right it's time for our lessons in love segment so this is the part of the show where i ask every guest to share something

valuable that they've learned about relationships from their previous experiences so what would your lesson in love be for us today well quite often we can because of our childhood, normally attachment stuff, blah, blah, blah. We'll enmesh with the person that we're going out with. It normally tends to happen quite quickly. It happens instantly. The thing, and we don't want that, what we want is to walk alongside the person and it's a lot more healthy and um fulfilling and peaceful and joyous to walk alongside our partner

rather than literally imagine you don't want to be walking you know a three-legged race do you because you don't it's different that's basically it a lot easier and more fun for a longer period of time to walk next to each other rather than do a three-legged race it might be fun for 100 yards but then it just gets very very boring I guess do you mean it's really important to have autonomy and not kind of slip into that trap of codependency and sort of just becoming one person yes autonomy and boundaries are a really beautiful thing if we haven't learned it as kids, it's going to take a while for us to learn that that is what healthy love is.

But if you find yourself in very up and down relationships, swings and roundabouts, I love them, I don't want to be with them, I love them, I don't want to be with them, this normally will mean that there's entrenchment and lack of boundaries um and lack of and you and and to change that we have to look at ourselves and look at how we can augment change yeah yeah I think that's so important it's so important to feel like you have your independence

in a relationship and not feel like and also not feel afraid to assert your own needs and your own boundaries and be selfish sometimes yeah I mean it's very there's a very very good book called the joys of being selfish and um and I forget the name of the author now but she really really knows her stuff yeah michelle she she came on the podcast actually um yeah she came she's brilliant it's a really good book i highly recommend that yeah she's worked out she's worked on her shit that's it for today thank you so much for listening if you're a new listener to this show you can subscribe to us on apple podcasts spotify acast or anywhere else you can comment and leave us a rating too so that more people can find us.

Keep up with everything to do with the show on Instagram. Just search Millennial Love. See you soon. Acast powers the world's best podcasts. Here's a show that we recommend. I'm Jessie Cruikshank, and on my podcast, Phone a Friend, I break down the biggest stories in pop culture. But when I have questions, I get to phone a friend.

I phone my old friend, Dan Levy. You will not die hosting The Hills after show. I get thirsty for the hot wiggle. I didn't even know a thirsty man until there was all these headlines. And I get schooled by a tween. Facebook is like a no, that's what my grandma's on. Thank God Phone a Friend with Jesse Crookshank is not available on Facebook. It's out now wherever you get your podcasts.

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