Love Lives - Talking porn with Erika Lust

Episode Date: September 25, 2020

Support Millennial Love with a donation today: https://supporter.acast.com/millennialloveThis week Olivia is joined by independent adult filmmaker Erika Lust.Erika is often referred to as a trailblazer in the "feminist porn" movement, championing female pleasure, consent and diversity in her films among other things that are often dismissed in conventional adult films.On the show, Erika explains how she got into the industry and the societal myths and misconceptions about porn that she hopes to rectify through her work.They also spoke about the issue with the phrase "feminist porn" and how it could serve to marginalise the genre.Follow the show on Instagram at @millennial_loveSupport this show http://supporter.acast.com/millenniallove. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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Visit Peloton at onepeloton.ca. Hello and welcome to Millennial Love, a podcast from The Independent on everything to do with love, sexuality, identity and more. This week, I'm very excited to be joined by independent adult filmmaker Erica Lust. Erica is a bit of a trailblazer in the world of feminist porn and I use that phrase in inverted commas and you'll see why when you listen to the episode. Unlike hardcore pornography which is typically directed through a male gaze, the films that Erica makes champion female pleasure, sexual autonomy and most importantly consensual and respectful sexual encounters. She joined me on the show to discuss her work in more detail, how the porn industry is changing,

and the impact that all this could have on our sex lives. Enjoy the show. Hi, Erica. How are you doing? Hi, I'm good. I'm good. I had a very busy morning, but I feel great. So thank you so much for coming on the podcast. As you know, I want to talk to you a bit about the films that you make. But I wanted to know if you could actually start us off just by explaining how you got in to the adult filmmaking industry and what made you want to pursue a career in it? It's kind of a long story. It started, you know, quite many years ago when I was a late teenager

or a young adult or how we want to call it. And as most people, I had obviously curiosities about myself and my sexuality, what I liked, what I didn't like. And I did watch porn. I guess most people do. And when I did, I had quite mixed feelings about it. And I think that was kind of the key to how everything started. Because I had that feeling that most of the porn that I watched, okay, now I have to tell you guys that I was born in 77. So I'm already 43 years old and I know that the world today is quite different from when I grow up. But I mean, today, you know, internet

is swamped by porn. Porn is all over the place. When I grew up, it was kind of difficult to find it. You know, you needed an in, you needed someone who could show you something. And for me, my first experiences, I think they were very typical, actually, because first time I kind of watched porn, it happened in a pajama party with a little group of friends. I think I was 12, 13, more or less. And a girlfriend of mine, she had found a video cassette that her father has taped and she put it on and she was like, oh my God, we have to watch this. Guys, you have to watch this this is how it's done you know and we did watch it and I think that we kind of felt weird about it kind of it

felt kind of funny because everything looked kind of strange and and and ridiculous in a way at the same time it was a little exciting because we wanted to understand what sex was about and and what it looked like and how people connected through sex but then the the worst feeling was kind of that yeah I don't know it felt like it didn't really get to me the way it was supposed to. And then I didn't really think about it for a few years. But then later on, I had a boyfriend who once came to my place with a DVD because then time had passed and DVDs had become popular. So he wanted us to watch that porn DVD. And we did and i um i i guess i was kind of

excited about it and i i i wanted to i wanted to like it i think i think i really wanted to like it but then i had those feelings that it wasn't really it wasn't really made for me it wasn't really for me it felt like like the women that they were there somehow to please the men and they were all about sexing up themselves and being like this this sex symbols and and and objectifying themselves all the time. And it wasn't really about their pleasure. It was about his pleasure, about the man's pleasure. And I think that that thought kind of got to me. And then I started to talk to friends around me about how I felt about watching porn. And I realized quite quickly that most of my male friends they had a very easy time with porn they watched it they liked it they masturbated to it they were happy with the porn

kind of but I had lots of female friends who felt the same way as I did that something was something was missing out for us and I think that that thought got me into to to you know to investigating more and to start thinking and I had already kind of realized what feminism was and I was you know interested in gender theories and about power balances and how the world worked. And I think that that background made me start thinking about how porn was fabricated, how it kind of, how the structure of it worked. liked the idea of porn I liked the idea of watching people having sex that felt that felt completely okay to me it didn't feel like something horrible or very nasty or something that you should be ashamed of but then I didn't like the structure that I saw in it and as I was a curious mind I kind of started to think about how can I make this different? Is there a way that actually that there could be kind of a porn for me or porn for me and other women?

And I think that was how it all kind of started on a mind level. Your first experience of watching porn weirdly is actually quite similar to mine even though it would have been like 20 years later I um yeah it was quite a similar experience for me because I think I was 15 and I was at a friend's house and there were about 10 of us girls there and she had found uh again a video I think under like her sister's bed or something and so we all just sat there quietly watching it and it was hardcore stuff and you know a lot of us hadn't had sex yet and we were looking at and we were like Christ is this what sex is like it looks violent and painful and and we're supposed to like that it's violent and painful and yeah I mean it it really

sets um it can set a really negative yeah I mean it it really sets um it can set a really negative precedent I think when that's your first exposure um so can you tell us a bit about how the films that you make differ from those conventional kind of hardcore pornography films they kind of differ in everything you know it's it's it's difficult maybe to really put the finger on on how but it's it's the whole concept of it. It's how they are made, how they are thought, how they are created. It's all the team that are working on these films together.

I sometimes, you know, I say everybody being to a fast food restaurant, right? That's one food business. Then there's other food businesses. There are small family restaurants they do almost everything differently right and this is kind of of of how it differs I mean mass-produced pornography today is really kind of done in a factory way you know it's just kind of nobody really cares about the product they just

kind of they do it and they want to sell it and that's it they don't care about the sex they don't care about the people in it they don't care about what what they are representing what kind of gender roles or or or or or we can even go into and start talking about cinematic quality of it because for me all of that matters you know I'm a cinema fan I love good cinema I love when everything kind of is is is it's nice and stylish and the light and the locations and the and the decorations and you know the wardrobe and the makeup and how they have really thought about these characters and who they are. And why are they into each other? Where comes that passion from?

And how do they live that sexual energy and experience they have together? And I want all of that to come through in my films I really I want to tell you a story you know I want to to to invite you to uh an erotic world somehow and that is also something that I feel a lot with most porn that it's concentrated so much on the physical act it's so much about the penetrations and whatever it is, you know, but it's like in and out, in and out, in and out. And you don't know anything about, about the rest of the story. So I'm kind of, I guess I'm more of a context person. I want, I want more out of my porn. I love that narrative is so important because that is so rare in conventional pornography.

You know, two people just see each other and immediately start having sex, which makes no sense because in real life, obviously that's not what happens. And it kind of perpetuates this really patched presentation of what sex is like. And it completely removes this idea of intimacy and love and respect

crucially so that was the other thing to ask you about is um how you kind of champion consent in your films because I know that's also really important to you it is really really important and it's something that is totally lacking in society people don't know how to talk about consent they don't know how to talk about consent, they don't know how to express what they want and what they don't want and they feel insecure in most people when it comes to sex. So I kind of take it as an opportunity in my films to try to bake that into the script writing and to talk to my performers and to make them kind of have the conversations

that we would have in normal life probably in front of the camera because this is something that happens a lot in in adult entertainment you know that that yes of course these things in even in mainstream porn you know most of of it is talked about people know what they are going to do etc but then they cut it completely outside the actual video that they are typing so what I'm trying to do is get it in there I'm trying to have the performers really connecting with each other talking to each other asking how they things, if they would like something different. So we have, so the sex doesn't get so, you know, so clinic somehow. Because in real life, I mean, it's not, we need to connect, we need to talk, it needs to be a little messy. And it's

okay. And you can say something, oops, I don't, sorry, I don't like that. Could we do it differently? Or, well, this is a little fast for me. I would like to slow down a little. That's totally okay. Yeah, communication is so, is so important. And again, it's something you rarely see. Another thing that is unfortunately very rare in conventional porn is prioritizing a female pleasure. You know, you see women come within seconds in conventional porn from, you know, no stimulation whatsoever. And everyone knows that that is completely unrealistic. So I want to know, why do you think female pleasure has been ignored for so long in porn do you think it's about the people making it or the the kind of target audience that you know is mostly made for the male gaze

I think it's both of those those factors definitely I think it's a lot about the people making it that they I mean their main interest has been to turn men on so they have gone for that and they have not really been interested in seeing how women works and what turns us on and what kind of mechanisms we need to actually reach an orgasm they wanted to get it faster there somehow so they kind of just cut out everything that we actually needed in sex uh I mean and then it's it's of course catered to a certain audience that's how how and and I really I really uh understood that in the beginning of my career when I had made my first short film I just had a short film and I didn't really know what to do with it. And I went to see some of the bigger adult companies to kind of pitch my film. You know,

I was a little innocent maybe, but at the same time, it was a very interesting experience. And I had reactions from many of these men running these companies telling me okay the film is is is quite interesting but you know what there's no market for women there's no there's women will never buy anything that has to do with sex i was told that you know they were even telling me into my face that you know we pay women for sex women will not spend money on sex and and if that's the attitude obviously uh i mean it's pretty clear why they are not interested in showing real female pleasure uh and i know i know we prove them wrong because many years later i think i have shown with my career and not only me, a lot of other female filmmakers also, that there is actually an audience for pornography

that is different, that caters to all people. I'm not, in the beginning of my career, I was talking a lot about that I was doing it for women, but then I realized little by little that it's for everyone. I have so many male fans out there. So, and they are, you know, they are writing to me and they are saying, hey, thank you so much for showing the world the way I see the world for, you know, including these values that I actually feel that I have. And it's quite interesting also because I receive some emails from men saying almost,

hey, Erika, you know what? You kind of destroyed porn for me. I was all happy with what was out there on the internet. And then suddenly I watched this interview with you and I started to listen to what you were saying. And I realized that most of that porn is terribly misogynistic and aggressive and violent and even racist. And that has nothing to do with me as a person.

I don't share those values. And I just watched it because I was used to watch it. But I didn't really think about what it was, you know, the values that it was representing. And I think that that is a really, really interesting thought, because there's so many people just going to all these free tube sites. And, and they don't really, they don't really see the taglines, how they are talking about, you know, the language they are using, how they are talking about women, you know, all this banging, smashing, choking, destroying, punish fucking women. Come on. I mean, porn, you know, should be about people having a really good time together, having the best sex ever.

That's what I want to watch, you know? I don't want to watch this guy smashing a woman and destroying her and wanting to punish her until she cries. I'm not interested in that at all. T'was the season of chaos, and all through the house, not one person was stressing. Holla differently this year with DoorDash. Don't want to holla do the most? Holla don't. More festive, less frantic. Get deals for every occasion with DoorDash.

ACAST powers the world's best podcasts. Here's a show that we recommend. I'm Jessie Kirkshank, and on my podcast, Phone a Friend, I break down the biggest stories in pop culture. But when I have questions, I get to phone a friend. I phone my old friend, Dan Levy. You will not die hosting the Hills after show. I get thirsty for the hot wiggle.

I didn't even know a thirsty meant until there was all these headlines. And I get schooled by a tween. Facebook is like a no, that's what my grandma's on. Thank God Phone a Friend with Jesse Crookshank is not available on Facebook. It's out now wherever you get your podcasts. Acast helps creators launch, grow, and monetize their podcasts everywhere. Acast helps creators launch, grow and monetize their podcasts everywhere. Acast.com It's really interesting what you said earlier about how people thought there would be no market for the kind of films that you wanted to make.

And I think what's particularly interesting about it is because how you said, you know, initially you wanted to make porn for women. what's in what's particularly interesting about it is because how you said you know initially you wanted to make porn for women um and there's this idea that oh women don't watch porn women don't engage in that because female sexuality is still weirdly shrouded shrouded in stigma there is this weird idea that you know when a woman talks about sex it could be characterized as promiscuous uh whereas when a man does you know he's he's seen as a lad or whatever and that does that seems really archaic but it's still so relevant um and that fits in quite well to to the next thing that i wanted to talk to you about because you said how now you know you don't really see your films as marketed towards women specifically because and and i think that's a really brilliant thing because then what you almost do there is you then marginalize it further and it's like okay

well women want to see this you know just soft and gentle porn and again it kind of separates out like women can't have sex like men kind of thing um so do you do you refer to your films as feminist porn or and and why or why not would you use that term? It's a really complicated kind of question, you know, because yes, they could be. Of course, I consider myself being a feminist, so we could use the term feminist porn because of who I am and my values and how I make them. Thinking about representing female pleasure, thinking about how I'm representing gender roles on screen, and also thinking about the crew that I'm hiring behind the camera, you know, most of my crew is a female crew, etc. So in that perspective, yes, it could, but then it's such a complicated kind of concept. If you say feminist porn, people go, what the hell is that?

You know, is that a group of like really ugly, nasty women with hair under their arms, going out there with strap-ons on, ready to fuck all the men in the world? I had so many people having so many strange ideas about what feminist porn would be. So I'm trying kind of to avoid it. I'm trying, when I'm talking about my films, I talk about independent adult cinema or something like that, because they are really independent in the sense of that the production company is mine, I'm financing my own films. It's cinema because of the values and how we film them. And it's adult because yes, we do show explicit sex. But it's not easy to find a good label. Yeah, it's a really interesting issue

because obviously you don't just want women watching your films because then, you know, you need everyone. You need everyone. You need this to become mainstream. You need this to replace all the stuff that's on the tube sites. You need the tube stuff not to be free.

You know, it's like you need these seismic changes within the industry in order to actually make it all accessible. We need, I think, more and more people realising that when we're talking about kind of the ethical aspects, it's not only about how we make the films. That's obviously a very important part of it. And caring about everybody and taking care of the whole process and the performers etc etc but then it's also about how you consume the films because people are so easy to kind of put the blame on the production instead

of thinking about how they are working as consumers. Because if you go on those tube sites online, you are not an ethical consumer, you know? And sometimes I talk about the food industry because I think it's easier for folks to kind of understand what it means. And if you start talking about people caring about their producers and going to the supermarket, checking out, you know, the eggs that they are

buying, where do they come from? Is it by, you know, hens running wild in the camp? Or is it, you know, from a ham factory? And it's a big difference. And this is the same when you are buying porn or when you're consuming porn, you should be buying it. That's what I think, because that's the only way you would know that it's actually done with the right conditions. Yeah, like you said, it's about being a conscious consumer. And I think another parallel, I suppose, would be almost like fast fashion.

You know, it's about taking it all into consideration. Obviously, there's quite a few adult film companies who are making similar films to you and trying to kind of reshape this narrative and encouraging, like you said, people to pay for their porn and trying to normalize that. that uh and you know they're making ethical films that that combat so many of the damaging things we see in in hardcore porn like you know the fetishization of ethnic minorities and the kind of fetishization of of sexual minorities and the almost you know there's there's there's very little uh accurate and safe and healthy representation for lg LGBT community in that kind of porn. So how do you hope these companies who are making these changes such as yours will reshape people's perceptions of porn? Because I know there is change happening. But like you said, you know, these tube sites are still the mainstream. How do you think we get to a point where we eradicate that it's a really difficult question

actually uh for little by little it's kind of the only answer i can give you on that informing people talking to our friends um trying to get the word out there and for people to realize uh what how how it kind of all works you know because because i think that there's so many people out there thinking that porn on the internet is made by lots of of different amateur people that kind of are uploading their videos and that that is kind of a cool concept but that's not the reality at all The reality is that most of the tube sites online is owned by one company, a company called mind geek, based in Montreal, Canada. And they are the owners of, let's say 75 80% of the porn on line.

So it's almost like there's a monopoly going on there. And I think that it's really important for people who care about all these values and issues that we have been talking about, trying to help us to spread the words and telling other people around them that independent pornography does exist even if we are just a little little crumble on the market yeah hopefully we get to a stage where the crumble becomes a cake is that a really bad metaphor that would be fantastic i started political science and in political science we always were talking about you know the critical mass and and and the idea of when you get to at least 30 percent of something then you start having a say in the whole so let's hope for more people daring also to do this kind of content.

Because what we really need, I think, is lots of diverse and different groups of people getting know, this kind of stereotyped guy making porn that's only interested in, you know, boobs and ass and his cigar and his cars and that kind of that, that vision of sexuality. question actually um if we do get to a point where the kind of films you're making become the mainstream porn that people consume how do you think that will benefit people's sex lives and in fact even for people you know regardless of whether they become mainstream or not for people who do consume your films how do you think it's benefiting their sex lives well i think it helps them to understand sexuality as a whole uh it's definitely very different for most women when they actually see other women having pleasure and how they are pleasing themselves uh and how they are how they are connecting with partners on a sexual level. I mean, it's tough, I guess, today for many young people growing up and having the same vision as you and me, as we had when we started to watch porn

and were curious about what it was like and had this feeling that it would probably show us how sex is done. And it must be very very very frustrating to go online watching those videos where they are doing hard penetrations in and out for two minutes and then it seems like she's just coming from nowhere so I think that if we watch more realistic versions of sex and we see different people with different circumstances, different genders and situations getting together, that would really help us to normalize our own uh our own fantasies and our own fears around sex because that's also

something that is happening quite a lot you know that people are so they they think that something is wrong with them that they are perverse that they are strange that they have all these strange fantasies that are not shared by other people but I realized that if you actually watch quality porn you will see that most of of your sexual ideas is shared by other people and that will help you to normalize yourself such a lovely such a lovely point um to end on and also i think yeah like you said it's also just about starting conversations about porn and making it normal to talk about the kind of porn that you're watching and the kind of things that you're into because you know otherwise you

know you're having sex with someone and they're like oh so what do you like and you just don't know what to say because you feel too awkward about it and then you just have bad sex which is rubbish for both of you uh lots lots of people they don't even know what they like they don't know exactly because because i i mean it's really really sad but and especially when we are talking about women there's so many women out there who are just doing it to please their partners yeah totally totally and the good sex they have they have by themselves when no one else is around and that's sad yeah very bleak very bleak um so it is time for our lessons in love segment this is the part of the show where i ask every guest to share something that they've learned about sex and relationships from their own experiences. So I guess, Erica, from you, it would be, you know, your experiences

as a filmmaker, you know, what is one of the things that you've learned about sex in your role? I learned so many things. Really, really. It's been an amazing amazing road uh since i started i think that i learned how to relax lots more just being around you know performers i met so many incredible people i think that a really interesting lesson also for lots of people would be to understand that when they are thinking about about porn performers adult stars porn stars or what we want to call them you know that people are kind of picturing uh people from sad circumstances not having the best opportunities in life and being kind of promiscuous and having a dark life. And that is so far from the reality that I have seen during my years in this industry. I met the most wonderful people. I met so many smart people.

I met so many people caring about themselves and their health and their sexual health and helping other people and being really, you know, focused on their careers and planning for their futures and investing their money and being really smart and healthy and wonderful. I think that it's important also for people to realize that when you decide to start paying for your porn, you are also supporting an industry of wonderful people who need to have a good income to be able to do their best work. That's it for today. Thank you so much for listening. That's it for today. Thank you so much for listening. If you're a new listener to this show, you can subscribe to us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Acast or anywhere else. You can comment and leave us a rating too so that more people can find us. Keep up with everything to do with the show on Instagram. Just search Millennial Love. See you soon. T'was the season of chaos and all through the house not one person was stressing

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