Love Lives - We need to have difficult conversations about cancel culture

Episode Date: May 31, 2024

We talk to author Yomi Adegoke about her debut novel The List, and the uncomfortable truth about #MeToo.The novel follows Ola and Michael, an Instagram-famous couple who, one month before their wedding, are shaken when Michael is accused of predatory behaviour in an anonymous list shared online.We talk with Yomi about the flaws within social media justice, the murky waters of anonymous allegations, and the importance of having nuanced discussions about cancel culture.Catch Love Lives on Independent TV and YouTube, as well as all major social and podcast platforms.Support this show http://supporter.acast.com/millenniallove. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Whether you're in your running era, Pilates era, or yoga era, dive into Peloton workouts that work with you. From meditating at your kid's game to mastering a strength program, they've got everything you need to keep knocking down your goals. No pressure to be who you're not. Just workouts and classes to strengthen who you are. So no matter your era, make it your best with Peloton. Find your push. Find your power. Peloton.

Visit Peloton at onepeloton.ca. I genuinely thought I was going to get cancelled. Like, that is a fact. I absolutely thought I was going to get cancelled. Hello and welcome to Love Lives, a podcast from The Independent where I, Olivia Petter, speak to different guests about the loves of their life. I am thrilled to be joined by Yomi Adegoke. She is here to talk about her internationally best-selling debut novel, The List. So welcome, Yomi. Hi, thanks for having me. Now for the few people listening and watching who have not yet read The List, could you please give us a brief premise? So the list is about a beautiful Instagram famous couple called Ola and Michael. They're about to have an amazing wedding in exactly a month's time.

No, it's not actually exactly a month, in nearly a month's time. nearly a month's time and just before the wedding an anonymous list goes up on social media accusing lots of different men of varying degrees of abuse um and Michael is named as one of those men um all as a prolific feminist journalist who has to decide whether she you know stands by her man so to speak or whether she believes what he's been accused of. And yeah, chaos ensues. Yeah, and throughout the book, there's like a kind of countdown to the wedding. There is, yes. Oh God, not me forgetting my own plot.

But yeah, there is a countdown. There's like a ongoing sort of like, you know, countdown per chapter just to like how many days to the wedding. And yeah, just thought I'd pile on the pressure there. Yeah, I mean, it's amazing. I read it so quickly. And it's interesting because we are talking about this shortly after one of the biggest convictions of the Me Too movement was overturned which was Harvey Weinstein's New York conviction

was overturned by the appeal court in in the state of New York. I want to ask you about Me Too because I know that you started writing this book or were inspired to write the book shortly after the Me Too movement. Tell me about how Me Too kind of fed into the narrative of this story because I remember at the time there were quite a lot of real lists like this out there, weren't there? Exactly that. So I'd say like 2017, maybe early 2018, lots of different lists were going viral in various different industries that were accusing lots of different guys of different things. And I always say that like my initial knee jerk reaction was like, essentially, there's no smoke without fire. And if you find yourself on a list like that, well, the likelihood is that you've done something to do so. And then I think just by virtue of being a journalist, I kind of, I don't know, I guess I felt slightly conflicted by the process. Not so much the, I guess like there was definitely an understanding as to why people felt the need to, you know, take that route towards justice.

I always say this, that like women in particular are routinely failed by, if not the police, the judicial system, you know, all the way down to HR when it comes to reporting allegations. So I kind of understood that, but then simultaneously was, I guess guess slightly like felt kind of uncomfortable with just the idea that anything should be believed online I don't think and I didn't think then that in any way that undermines the reality that the vast majority of these allegations aren't taken seriously when women do make them and that the vast majority of allegations that are made to the police are true. I think it's between two to three percent only are fake. But we're not talking about the police.

Unfortunately, we're talking about social media. And as a journalist, as a fellow journalist, you know that when it comes to social media, it's slightly more complicated in terms of what we should believe and what we shouldn't. That's then kind of compounded by, you know, a fake news crisis, but also, you know, I mean, I want to call it an AI crisis. I don't think we're referring to it yet in that way, but it feels like a crisis to me. That also makes whatever we read online and what we see online even more difficult to believe. So, you know, those I suppose are quite like new questions in terms of AI and I guess fake news, even in 2017, was still only like a budding issue.

So essentially, I wanted to write a long read that was nonfiction, that kind of looked at the issues and the complexities, but it felt slightly early. The Me Too conversation was very much burgeoning and I felt like it was kind of too early to problematise it and complicate that conversation. So I kind of sat on it for a bit and then it came back to it um during lockdown and I always say it's because like everyone else is making sourdough bread and I can't cook so I was like I need something to do why not write a book which makes me sound like super like I don't know productive but it really was just because I was like I literally have nothing else to do but yeah I always say as much as it is a book that was inspired by

those real life lists that were being disseminated um I do very much stress that in my mind it's more a book about the internet in and of itself you could technically have the exact same plot about you know somebody who was receiving lots of like negative reviews on you know a restaurant that's receiving negative reviews on Yelp it'd been a very boring story but like it's possible um to kind of have that same conversation about just truth and the internet um it's obviously more controversial and yeah like interesting when you have it about something like this but i think the kind of point about the internet being a very difficult space to, you know, have honest conversations and trust what to read and what you believe kind of is a universal one. I want to come back to the internet because I think there's so much to talk about there.

But just going back to the Me Too plot, what's so interesting about your book is that you include Ola's perspective and Michael's perspective. And they kind of run in tandem with one another which is so interesting because you get the sense of what it's actually like to be accused of something like that yeah which is not a perspective that we get really ever for obvious reasons I suppose but I I think it's really important that we get that perspective in fiction and in real life because I don't know how you feel about this, but I sort of sense that if we're ever going to achieve any kind are made on a platform like social media, which is like largely unchecked. And obviously, as you know, you know that as journalists, we're kind of bound by certain regulations, which mean that when we are reporting on certain allegations, we know that, you know, they essentially are airtight. You really have

to be cautious about what you say the thing about being accused of something anonymously on the internet is usually whatever it is it spreads quicker than the kind of like correct narrative does so I've seen lots of things where you know something's been said about somebody and then the person's actually come out afterwards. And it's been like, well, actually, that's not true because here are loads of receipts and here's lots of evidence that show that isn't true. But I mean, the original tweet that said something negative about them has got, you know, hundreds and thousands of retweets and impressions. And the follow up doesn't go quite as viral. So I think, like, in terms of including Michael's perspective, I thought that it was important because, I mean,

originally it was just going to be from Ola's perspective because I thought that the, you know, just seeing what it is to be a woman who's connected to a man that's accused of something that serious, I thought that was an interesting perspective and also one you don't really see. Because usually if you're a woman and you're connected to someone in that way, it's you know as their romantic partner or as a friend or

as a colleague or as a sibling or mother you're immediately seen as complicit um you're seen as though you probably knew what they were like xyz unless you kind of turn your back on them immediately so it's just going to be on her but then I felt like Michael's perspective was an interesting one because you know you don't actually know whether he's done what he's been accused of right until the end of the book and because it's a book that looks at you know whether these allegations any allegations that are made on the internet anonymously I think that's the really like kind of crucial part to look at um because it's looking at the complexities of that. I thought it would be interesting. And again, as you said, important to look at the ways in which that would affect somebody,

because it's very different to sorry, it's very difficult to, you know, defend yourself against an allegation online in particular, especially if you don't know who's made it, because that's just kind of the way the internet works. It's also really interesting reading Ola's perspective of like someone close to her being accused of something like that, because again, it's one of those things where like, if you look at the stats of sexual violence, it's something like one in four women have been raped, most likely by a man. How many men do you talk to who would say, oh yeah, I raped someone? So there's like there's a discrepancy with the numbers and i think when you know we are close to to people we can't

see them as capable of causing harm but again there's a discrepancy there as well so it's so important to have all these kind of complicated conversations and they are so complicated but the internet thing in particular I think is interesting to look at now because again making it relevant to what's happening at the moment like I don't know if you've seen Baby Reindeer I have yeah but you know the internet ferrari around that yeah is wild yeah and it just shows you how you said, like it doesn't matter how rooted in truth something is. It can be, it can become global news, not necessarily on a media level where it's rigorously checked, but like to the degree that people are talking about it that much.

Yeah. That no one really cares if it's true or not. A hundred percent. There's no regulation. And now, yeah, I've been kind of watching, I watched Baby Reindeer and thought it was incredible. And now I'm watching like the fallout, like kind of, you know, behind my fingers and just feeling really uncomfortable with the turns that it's taking. And I guess just, I think that is the complex thing with social media, just the ways in which, you know, we literally have seen this now, like, play out in real time, in real life with, you know, certain allegations that were made very confidently by, you know, hundreds, if not thousands of people online who were kind of playing, you know, detective and, you know, kind of, I guess, off the back of the true crime like wave, kind of stealth style detectives accusing somebody of something and then having to, you know, have the writer himself kind of come out to defend that person and say it's actually not this person. And then him having to, you know, I guess, threaten legal action. And even despite

all of that, I'm still seeing people say that it's that person in question, which just shows how, like, I'm always saying the internet is the Wild wild west and I do genuinely think we're going to look back in hopefully 10 years I think that's quite optimistic maybe like 20 years and be like my god that was an insane time like in the same way we look back on like lobotomies like yeah you know feet binding and we're like that was yeah fucking mental it's getting worse it's getting so much worse and it's terrifying and these are people's reputations and livelihoods at stake this is the thing and i think this is why for me like it's such a disingenuous and like frustrating conversation to have when you know people kind of i mean obviously the vast majority of people i've spoken to have been like oh my god you know i've been having these conversations

on whatsapp with my friends in private about like how uncomfortable this stuff can be but then you get lots of people that are like, oh, you know, you shouldn't actually talk about something that is, you know, that is controversial in this way. And you shouldn't look at like the potential of movements being weaponized by the wrong kinds of people because, you know, it's dangerous, it walks the boat. But I mean, I just think that we're in such a dangerous time and the internet is so unregulated. And even like outside of things like, you know, the Me Too movement, I'm talking like quite specifically now about like Twitter as a platform slash X. But I remember seeing a rise of like, there was like a rise of very particular kind of like account on, you know,unquote black twitter that would like go really viral especially in america that would be really politically active and talking about all these like you know social justice issues and would build huge followings honestly and they're like

hundreds and thousands and i remember like a buzzfeed um kind of expose revealing that like dozens of those accounts had actually been like russian bots and like showing how and it was like a huge scandal that like everyone just has completely moved on from and completely forgotten about. But it was like a really big thing. And I remember being like, oh my God, I follow this account and it being like unveiled as a Russian bot that was pretending to be a black woman and pretending to care about black female issues and like had, you know, gained traction and trust and access through doing that. And that story isn't particularly, you know, new or even, I'd say, surprising. I mean, I'm always saying we grew up on catfish,

which is kind of like, you know, in its most primordial kind of like safest form. But yeah, I think it's kind of intellectually dishonest to not act as though, you know, any movement, and that does mean movements such as such as me too which is so important and because even you know with what you were saying about the overturning of Weinstein's conviction it does show like just how difficult it is to you know receive justice as a woman um as a person you know that's um experienced any kind of abuse within an industry you know we're seeing this unfold over time um but that i think two things can be true at once which is that you know that is the reality for women who have experienced you know assault and abuse within industries that it's

so difficult to receive justice and simultaneously that the internet is a very very flawed medium for justice not because women can't be believed or trusted, but because the internet can't be believed or trusted and because it's a very, you know, dangerous place for anybody or for a place where truth and nuance, I'd say, go to die. Yeah, and I think that's the problem because sexual violence is one of the most nuanced issues of our time and I think if we don't allow for nuance in that conversation we're never going to get anywhere and people don't like to at all yeah and not just in sexual violence but violence against women more generally you know I mean the obvious example is

the Amber Heard Johnny Depp trial I don't know if you've listened to this podcast about who trolled Amber but it's all about you know the allegations about bots being heavily involved in a social media campaign against her during that trial and that influencing the jury. And there's a whole, it's really interesting. But I think another thing that interests me about this and worries me about it is that it creates a culture of distrust of mainstream media as well. Exactly. And I think there is an amalgamation of kind of social media chatter in mainstream media and because so few people outside the media perhaps understand the

rigmarole that is involved in a thorough investigation yeah there's a lack of belief in that system and lack of trust in that system so the example I'm thinking of is the Russell Brand allegations right and when they came out know, I was having conversations with friends about it. And they were saying, well, you know, none of the women are named. You know, I'm not going to. Why should I believe it? Yeah. And because they don't know.

They kind of talk about it as if it's a series of tweets. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And I feel like that's a symptom of this culture that you've written about. A hundred percent. And then also it's putting the press, I'd say, under like really undue pressure to race to the bottom essentially and report on things with less like rigor and with less fact checking but then even just in terms of what the point you made about a lack of trust I would say this is why I'm so cautious of you know um the kind of

routes to justice that are outlined in the list what's being incredibly understanding towards them and like critical more of the process than the actual intention is because reality is when things aren't fact checked or when they are you know when it's kind of

like a when it's open to the public in a particular way the minute one allocation or one thing on there is proven untrue, the entire document, the entire kind of conversation is then thrown out. And I think that is one of the biggest concerns I've always had. And something that we've literally seen, I remember before I even started, no, before the book was released, but I'd started writing it at this point, I'd been following the kind of, you know, shitty media men list that had gone, you know, the kind of, you know, primordial list of all lists. And I remember like following like a legal case that had like occurred off the back of, you know, that list.

And a guy was saying that what he was accused of wasn't true. you know, that list and a guy was saying that what he was accused of wasn't true. And then he took not even the person who made the allegation, but the person who had published the list to court. And I think it got thrown out, but then he, I know he was paying damages. And now to this day, a lot of people use that example to kind of rubbish other allegations. And that's why I think that, yes, it's not comfortable. Yes, it's difficult to have these kind of conversations. But I think it's super important because we're always allowing the wrong people to have these conversations.

Currently, any conversation that's critical of cancel culture and this kind of approach is usually coming from from the right wing and it's usually those people that are using it to like undermine you know women's truth and and silence women and I feel like on the left because we're like slightly less comfortable having these conversations and kind of have our heads in the sand about it we've allowed like conversations about council culture and like things like guilty till proven innocent which are like really kind of founding like left-wing principles to be commandeered by the wrong kind of person who comes you know to this debate from a kind of more um disingenuous and like bad faith um route I mean like I said in the intro like the list has done so astronomically

well and I'm so proud of you for it. And it's so well deserved. What have some of the more surprising reactions to the book been? Because obviously, like you said, and like we know this is a controversial topic. So what has kind of shocked you most about how people have engaged with it? Well, first of all, when I first wrote it, honestly speaking, I genuinely thought I was going to get cancelled. Like that is a fact. I absolutely thought I was gonna get cancelled like that is a fact like I absolutely thought I was gonna get cancelled so I was very surprised to like make it out in one piece like touch wood there's still time but um that really was like a genuine

kind of like fear I'd say I wouldn't say fear because I say this a lot, like, I was writing about race and racism on the internet in 2012. So, I mean, I think, like, I am used to, like, you know, I guess that was a time that predates, like, you know, the whole 2020, like, black square summer, like, thing by a good, like, eight years. So, I know that conversations around race and racism even feminism have like changed a lot over the past few years and have become quite mainstream but back in the day when I was like writing these pieces like you know they were very divisive um I'd say even amongst people who were you know considering themselves to be progressive so I think I'm very I'm very used to like writing stuff that I know is going to kind of like get people's backs up. It's definitely not my first rodeo by any means.

And I think it's because I know that like I'm always coming from a good faith perspective for sure. But also it's like I know I'm never alone. I know I'm having lots of conversations like privately. And I feel like I actually have a platform to be able to say these things. And and I know that again as I said I'm not coming from like I'm not playing devil's advocate remotely for the sake of it there are lots of survivors that get in touch with me and sort of talk about this idea of you know like holding two ideas in your head at once and saying like you know even though like you know we're looking at complicating the conversation around this approach to justice, they've also empathised with that idea of being cautious about what you believe online because they've actually been victimised by that. I think have got in touch with me discussing that you know the statistic that we've just spoken about the reality that it really is just between two to three percent of allegations that are made

um to the police are made up like I wouldn't even surprise if it was less than that because it's a very rigorous process with the police and no one puts themselves through that for no reason um but then I've had lots of people speak to me about kind of just our conflation of that statistic with online and and I think that's been like really like and really important for me for people that have kind of spoken to me being like oh you know that's something that's been resonant with me but I'd never really thought about the reality of that potentially being different online and the fact that the internet is a very different space that allows for very different behavior and some of the like messages I've received about things people

have lied about online and made up online um in like completely different contexts but have been so damaging and cruel I've heard all kinds of stuff just in terms of like the things people how low people will do wildest things that you've had one of the wildest things well I'd say one of the wildest things that I've ever come across was actually within research funny enough not even something that someone messaged me but I remember reading about um an instance of road rage where a woman in America of course had like driven past another woman and like someone what I think the woman had cut her off or something like I can't drive so I don't know she did something wrong and the other woman within like you know her maddened state like like remembered her license plate went home put it put her information into

like the internet somehow got her like name and like information and then put her details into this thing called like a homewrecker website where you can um put someone's name in and all kinds of abuse about that person. And then once you've submitted it, it, like, fucks up their SEOs so that, like, if I was a lunatic, I could, like, go to my house and be like, Olivia Petter is an XYZ who did this with my husband. And then if someone types your name in, you know, it knocks off your website.

It knocks off Gold Rush from, like, the search results. It knocks it knocks off millennial love everything gets pushed down and then it's just all these allegations at the door that is terrifying it's and she didn't know her it was just madness she was just so pissed off and apparently like her life had been falling apart and all these things were going wrong but I just thought wow like you don't know this person and that's as far as you would go and and that's when you don't know someone so it's kind of like imagine having that exact power which we all do and actually knowing someone and actually being upset because someone has like been on has actually been unfaithful to you or has you know genuinely upset you owes you money like it's just the potential for evil is limitless and that sounds really bleak but it really is and

I think it's very naive when people are like people lie about everything on the internet except within this space and it's like well you don't actually know who's got access to that space and that's the reality of the internet because all kinds of people have access to the internet. I always say it's like an invisibility cloak. And yeah, I think there's a lot of naivety within the conversation at the moment. We kind of engage with things as we'd like them to be as opposed to how they are in reality. Breaking news happens anywhere, anytime.

Police have warned the protesters repeatedly, get back. CBC News brings the story to you as it happens. Hundreds of wildfires are burning. Be the first to know what's going on and what that means for you and for Canadians. This situation has changed very quickly. Helping make sense of the world when it matters most. Stay in the know. CBC News.

Whether you're in your running era, Pilates era, or yoga era, dive into Peloton workouts that work with you. From meditating at your kid's game to mastering a strength program, they've got everything you need to keep knocking down your goals.

No pressure to be who you're not. Just workouts and classes to strengthen who you are. So no matter your era, make it your best with Peloton. Find your push, find your power. Peloton, visit Peloton at onepeloton.ca. We have to move on to discuss um your loves the first one i want to talk to you about is brazil oh because you said that you've been there twice during times in your life when things have been a bit difficult and you've been feeling a bit lost so tell me about the first time to start with how How did you end up in Brazil of all places?

So I feel like anytime I go to Brazil, it's like I'm writing a book. Because I was writing Slay in Your Lane or I'd written Slay in Your Lane. Like I think me and Elizabeth, my co-author and best friend, had like written Slay in Your Lane at this point. And we'd like sent it out to publishers. I think that's where we were in the journey. And I'd just broken up with like my, my then boyfriend, who is fab, and I'm, like, still very good friends with, and it was a very, like, amicable breakup.

But, you know, I was kind of just feeling, like, kind of lost at sea. And I'd always wanted to go to Brazil because, like, I feel like everyone did. Like, I don't watch any football. I have no interest in it. But when it was the World Cup, it's like, if I wasn't supporting Nigeria, I'd be supporting Brazil for some reason. I don know how but like I just did um I think it had something to do with my older sister and I think like loads of the best players were on that team so like I just remember like my default was supporting Brazil and I remember like I then got this really strange fixation with the place I remember being in primary school and we had to write to um different

embassies and I chose Brazil and like wrote them like you know it's really like badly spelled grammatically incorrect letter um that said literally nothing at all and I remember like as you know I think we were like literally eight or something and we all wrote these letters to like these different countries I remember no one got a response back except me because I'm like because Brazilians are great and they got, they sent me like little flags and like all these little like bookmarks and stuff. It was really cute. And I just remember since then being like, I really want to meet these like people. I was

like, you know, they were just, I just remember the letter so kind and so kind of like taken like the ramblings of like an eight year old veryold very seriously so I remember going in 2016 I think um and not speaking a lick of Portuguese um I think the population that's the English-speaking population is like under 11 percent it's like nobody speaks yeah no one speaks English there and yet like I'm always there um I'm literally I'm like planning on going next year like um and I just remember having like the best time ever it was like it might have been my first solo trip maybe I think uh it was definitely my first time like staying in hostels um and I just remember having like an absolute ball like you know I think you can't really say like an entire nation of

people is one way but I just remember like everyone being so lovely and like all my fantastic conversations I had through like Google Translate I just really fell in love with the place and then this um last time I went in 2023 I was like again like I think I'd written the book yeah wait I can't remember I obviously written the book but there was something book related I can't remember I guess it hadn't come out yeah it hadn't come out in February and I went and I was supposed to go for 10 days and I ended up like just staying for a month because I enjoyed it so much I just think it's such a beautiful place and it's just it's fascinating like I really appreciate like the like even like the cultural stuff I think is incredible like um so I'm Nigerian and like um the tribe that my family are from are Yoruba and there's a lot of I'd say stigma still

in Nigeria like um in terms of the traditional like African religions that are that were once like practiced like pre-colonial um traditions that were practiced um and i find it really fascinating like in brazil lots of it's been preserved and like lots of them like speak yoruba and they're like religious practices and stuff and they kind of have like meshed it with like christianity it's actually the same in cuba um and i think it's like really beautiful to see how those things have like survived even if they haven't been able to survive i mean they have they have they have in some sense survived in Nigeria, but I think it's like it's quite stigmatized. Whereas there it's like really celebrated and it's just it's just a really, really fascinating place. So I really love it. And I'm back again. And obviously, it's got carnival.

It's just it's like it's just fab. Like I just had such a great time. it's like it's just fab like I just had such a great time and I think it really taught me a lot about like how you really can just like make friends with people and like not understand what they're saying how's your Portuguese now horrendous really it's not like I'm not trying it's like horrific it's just not working it's so bad I remember getting lost at the airport and like met like this one um English-speaking guy who like genuinely became my dad like he was like in his 60s and he was like yeah like I speak English don't worry come with me and like I remember I was going to Salvador and he was like you know what I'm like I remember him being like can you give me your um like Uber like you know you can send the link to show that you've like made it

home safely and then obviously being a woman I was like well what if you what if you're trying to kill me and then you've got now you know where I'm going so I was like oh god I don't want to give you like a thing but then I was kind of like I don't really feel like I have a choice but he was like oh okay seeing you've gotten home that's great tomorrow I'm taking you out with my daughter and I'm driving you around as my as a tour guide to show you Salvador and him and his daughter who like couldn't speak any English at all just like drove me around Salvador we all just like had lunch and he was like yeah next time you come and stay with us it was like the most but I'm not joking Olivia had encounters like that every single day you would never get that in London ever never people would literally tell

you to fuck off oh my god do you think I'd ever give someone a link to like my uber like drive in London like a woman just randomly gave me her like sweets on the train and was like, you look hungry. This is for the journey. She did it in Portuguese branding. It's reassuring that people are still kind out there. That everyone was so lovely and just really like, yeah, everyone was just genuinely very kind.

And every single day I'd meet someone like that and they'd always be like doing something really lovely. And I was like, wow, like this is just, just really just really like I guess restored a lot of my faith in humanity time so we've got two more loves to talk about I just quickly want to ask about your sisters which is your second love so you have two sisters oh I can talk about that so quickly so my sisters are my favorite people on the planet we're really really close and are you middle or I'm the middle okay um and yeah I've got like my older sister my younger sister yeah, I'm so close to my sisters that when it came to like buying a flat, I literally was like looking for places

within like a 10 minute radius from my little sister. And I found one that's like three minutes. I live three minutes away. Oh, that's so nice. My postcodes are two letters different. And like my older sister lives like 10 like literally no my little sister my oldest sister lived together um my parents live like I think honestly a 20 minute walk Elizabeth lives 20 minutes away my other best friend and my godson live like maybe 15 minutes away and my other best

friend was she's moving to Bromley so she's giving me like half an hour but like everyone lives really close and like so when I say sisters it's like my biological sisters of course who you know I literally dedicate slaying a name to them they're like my best friends but um but my sisters is in my friends I've got such fantastic friends and most of my closest friends I've known like I think I mean Elizabeth's my best friend and I've known her since uni for like 14 years but like most of them it's literally been since like secondary school college college friends feel like kind of new to me because it's like, oh, wow. But like my, you know, my godson's mum, I've known since. The fact I call her my godson's mum now and I've only just met him, he's only five.

But it's like, no, never ever. I've known her since I was 11. So, yeah, my sisters are just like, they're like my best friends, my people. Like I just, I'm very lucky. I have fantastic people in my life, like I truly do. And they're all girls. So, yeah. Finally, third love and

you're gonna have to explain this to me because I googled it I still don't entirely understand what it is and what makes it so unique Lifetime movies oh my god I love Lifetime movies what are they oh my god is it an American thing yeah so you know like Lifetime channel on Amazon Prime I know that they like have an endless well of just like shit films yes that are like that they show on Lifetime that I think are non-ironically excellent um because I think like they're just like they're so brain smoothing like it's like you literally know exactly what's gonna happen and at each point they're so melodramatic I just love the insanity of them. And yeah, I don't know. Oh no, I think I got into them like just before, like this is when I, before like I moved out

and like got my own place. So I'd like always be at my sister's house. I'd like, she'd wanna watch all these really like intelligent likes, really hard hitting films. And I'd be really tired. Like this is, I think like, you know, post Selenial Lane, but we were still like writing other books.

And sometimes I just wanted to be like brainless, especially because I often write about TV as well. So I was like, God, I don't want to have to think whilst I'm watching something. And then I just found Lifetime where I was like, oh, my God, these films. This is the same film with a different coloured hair actress and the identical plot about like baby snatching and like twins swapping identities and I was like I don't even have to think but I am entertained so I love Lifetime films I think they honestly do a public service and now there's like an equivalent on Channel 5 where they've got like every Monday they release like basically British Lifetime films that are like series like there's one called Coma where this guy like punched this guy and then he like fell

into a coma and it was just like melodrama like every single episode it just got more and more like insane I was watching something called love rat and it was about this woman this guy had like stolen this woman's money and this like normal like middle-aged woman like goes on this quest to get her money back and she ends up with all these mobsters and I was like this is lunacy I love Lifetime films and anything that's like adjacent to it anything that's just stupid um I think honestly it's you don't want something smart all the time and everyone pretends they want it on Twitter but I definitely don't no neither do I reality TV all the time that's why I've got a column on it that is all we've got time for today thank Thank you so much for listening and watching. You can watch all of the Love Lives episodes on The Independent. You can also listen to us on all major podcast platforms and all social media platforms and connected devices. Whether you're in your running era, Pilates era, or yoga era,

dive into Peloton workouts that work with you. From meditating at your kid's game to mastering a strength program, they've got everything you need to keep knocking down your goals. No pressure to be who you're not. Just workouts and classes to strengthen who you are. So no matter your era, make it your best with Peloton. Find your push. Find your power. Peloton. Visit Peloton at onepeloton.ca.