Lovett or Leave It - Lovett or Leave It Presents: Bravo, America! (with Bronwyn Newport)

Episode Date: December 9, 2025

Real Housewives of Salt Lake City star, Bronwyn Newport, is in it for the friendships! Bronwyn opens up about leaving the Mormon church, becoming an American citizen, and striking a balance between vulnerability and self-preservation on the show. She reflects on what she's learned about herself from being on TV and the power of conversations she's had with family members when the cameras are rolling. Lovett also checks in on how Bronwyn is feeling ahead of the upcoming RHOSLC reunion and who her closest friends are going into that almost certainly messy conversation.For a closed-captioned version of this episode, click here. For a transcript of this episode, please email [e-mail] and include the name of the podcast. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Love it or Leave it is brought to you by OneSkin. I've been working on my skincare routine. I have a routine I do in the morning and in the evenings. I do a cleanser. I do a serum. I do vitamin C in the morning and a peptide in the evening because I want that good skin. And a great thing to add to your routine is OneScan.

At the core is their patented OS1 peptide, the first ingredient proven to target senescent cells. The root causes of wrinkles, crepiness, and a loss of elasticity, all signs. of aging, and the results have now been validated in five different clinical studies. Certified Safe for Sensitive Skin, One Skin products are free from over 1,500, harsh or irritating ingredients, dermatologist tested, and have been awarded the National Exema Association seal of acceptance. They won the itchy by the NDA, delivering powerful results without the side effects. All of One Skin's products are designed to layer seamlessly and replace multiple steps in your routine,

making skin health easier and smarter at every angle. One Skin also just launched their limited edition holiday sets, including the nightly rewind gift set, which is one of those rare gifts that's both impressive and genuinely useful, providing an upgrade to anyone's nightly routine, featuring their best-selling face moisturizer, their new peptide lip mask. I really like that, actually. I use that, and it's great. And a cooling guasha tool, each component of the set designed to work together as your body enters its natural nightly repair mode, helping renew skin at the cellular level for a stronger, smoother, and more resilient skin. For a limited time, try one skin for 15% off using code love it at one skin.com slash love it.

After your purchase, they'll ask you where you heard about them. Please support our show and tell them that we sent you. Okay, Bravo's not here. I can give you a little spoiler. There's discussion about my citizenship coming on the show. I have an event around it. And I think in confessional, they didn't ask me, of course, because I'd already study. But I think they asked the other women some of the questions from the citizenship test.

So if that makes the episode, I would love to see how many of them know the answers to those questions. I cannot wait to find out. Hey, everybody, it's John Lovett. Welcome back to Love It or Leave It presents Bravo America. I'm sitting down with some of my favorite personalities from reality TV because you cannot understand the dynamic in politics today if you don't understand the dynamics of reality television. This is how Congresswoman Sarah McBride put it on Pod Save America earlier this year.

Some of my colleagues are treating me the way they are treating me for a couple of reasons. one, it's because they want attention, right? They want to employ the strategies of a Bravo TV show to get attention in a body of 435 people, and the way to do that is to pick a fight with someone and throw a wine in their face. Today, I am joined by the one and only Bronwyn Newport from the Real Housewives of Salt Lake City. I talked to Bronwyn just before she went to record this year's reunion. It was a great conversation. Bronwyn opens up about what it's like to live her life on camera, what it's like to see herself in ways maybe she didn't expect. She opens up about the on-screen dynamics between her and her husband, Todd, as well as with her mother. Brahmin also reflects

on what it was like leaving the Mormon church in ways in which she didn't feel supported when she was younger and why that has led her to stand up for trans kids and gay kids today. What I appreciated most about this conversation is how thoughtful Brahmin is about real housewives, about why she went on the show, about celebrity and having an image and being vulnerable and trying to build real friendships in this manufactured environment and not only what she's learned about these other women, but what it's taught her about herself. So I think you really enjoy this episode with Bronwyn. You can also check out her substack threads of individuality and Real Housewives of Salt Lake is airing right now on Bravo. Without further ado, Brahma Newport.

So out of the gate, you show up for your first episode and you make it clear you're going to bring some looks. Yeah. That you're going to show up with some style. So here's my question. Have you noticed in your, is now your second season, that other housewives have stepped up their looks in competition? I don't know if it's competition, but I think like when you raise the baseline, right, there's an expectation that everybody has to play at that. level. Maybe I'd like to think that about myself. You've raised the game. You've raised the bar. You've raised the bar. Christian Ciorano said recently that you're the only housewife he likes to

dress in part because you actually pay for the clothes and that you have style. He appreciated that some of the looks you brought in your first season were just things that you had from him. So in all honesty, most of what I wore in my first season, I set out to wear things I already owned. I didn't want to purchase anything for filming. It's always really last minute anyway. It's kind of like tomorrow you're doing a mob-themed party, and there's not a ton of, you know, storefronts in Utah that I shop at anyway. A lot of stuff comes in FedEx to me from other places. So it was like this fun drag race challenge for me all the time. What did I have in my closet that I could restile?

And it was a way that I always knew I was showing up really as myself, cameras or not, if I wore things I already had. So I wanted to talk to you about the most powerful reality TV engine in America today, which is the Mormon Church. Somehow, why are people so obsessed with Mormons on television? I don't know. I guess I got out of Mormonism at the wrong time because I got out of the church and then they like blew up on reality TV and Instagram. You know, I know that a lot of the bloggers originally like Instagram mommies and all that kind of stuff, mommy bloggers were from this era of Mormonism that really pushed journaling.

And like, you know, scrapbooking and Instagram was like this beautiful new tool to do that with. But yeah, I think Utah's just this kind of cluster of very odd personalities trying to manage in a high-demand religion, for sure. Are you watching Secret Lives of Mormon Wives? I just started. I had not watched because it felt really close to me. And I sometimes always think, you know, maybe I wouldn't want people to just know me from the show. So I try to give other people that benefit, but I couldn't stay away from it. What do you think so far? I mean, I have to give them credit. I think I put my whole life out there. These girls are putting their whole lives out there.

It's wild. It's wild. So you're raised in the Mormon church. You're 19. You're expelled from Brigham Young for getting pregnant. What is your relationship with the church now? Yeah. So I want to be really clear.

I wasn't expelled for being pregnant. I was definitely put on a suspension. Oh, the suspension. And then I chose not to go back. And in the past, I've been kind of, oh, I didn't go back because I was pregnant or I got kicked out. And I want to be really clear. They did not specifically say you are pregnant out of wedlock. You can't be here. But it was obviously not going to work for me after that had happened. But to be fair, to BYU,

I was suspended and chose not to work my way back in. So my relationship with the church is like, I feel like with all my neighbors just on my street. I know them. They live by me. I hope the best for them. But I don't really talk to them every day. I have eight acres at my house. So I see my neighbors when I drive down the street. And that's how I'd like to feel about the church. If it works for somebody else great. You know, the church wasn't awful to me. I know a lot of other people have a lot of serious trauma from their experience in the Mormon church. I just realized it wasn't for me and left. I don't know. I have this very complicated feeling if I feel for people who've really struggled with their leaving the church or their family's affiliation with the church, I didn't

have that, but I can see where it works for some people and where it has not worked for others. I also have a lot of family who still go. So I try really hard. hard to be not even neutral, but like positive to neutral about it for their sake. But you must also hear from young women who are still in the church, maybe in similar situations or feel similarly alienated. You know, there's this moment this season where it's very clear that your mother still feels a lot of the same feelings from 20 years ago to this day. And I wonder what you say when young women reach out to you now who are still in the church. Yeah. So it's a beautiful thing for me that sharing parts of my life resonates with people and they do tell me their

stories and they want to talk to me about it. And I think it's something that I just thought this is happening to me. It's just my family feels this way. And my family's connection to the church and its culture feels this way. And when I left the church, so many people that were still in the church kept saying it's not the church Bronwyn. It's people who go to church that had that opinion. And I think that really messed me up because my experience was the church did not agree with me being pregnant or me being a single mom or some of my LGBTQ friends' relationships. And I really got this kind of twisted sense of, no, that's a culture or that's like somebody's interpretation. No, it's what the church promotes. Let's be clear. It is. And I think even this year as I've gone

through it and talk to people, I've realized another layer of how I have a tendency to just be like, it's fine, it's fine, it's fine, it's okay. I can handle it. And if I can handle it, it wasn't that bad. No, it was pretty bad. It's still pretty bad to this day. with some of my family members. And that's hard to admit, but it's truthful. And that's okay to be truthful, even if it's hard. So you've been advocating for trans kids and trans teens. You've talked about how you and your fellow housewives are free to get gender affirming care. And so trans teens should be able to get it as well. There was a moment where you were talking about that if your daughter came and said she needed this care, you'd want her to have whatever

was the best care that, whether it's gender affirming care or any health care. Yeah. And there was a way in which it really did feel resonant with the conversations you were having with your mother this season and feeling like maybe you didn't get the care and support you needed when you were young. And I wonder if you feel that connection between how isolated you felt when you were younger. Yeah, I think I talk a lot about gender affirming care as a place where somebody might feel comfortable with that. But for me, I'd really much rather call it just care. Whatever care, your friend, child, partner, neighbor needs, they should have is really how I feel about it full stop.

And I think, like I was saying earlier, I've realized there are big gaps in my life where I was not getting what I probably needed. And I don't know that that's anybody's fault necessarily. I think my mom had no experience with that. I think the way she was raised and the church that she's really a part of just don't function in a way that she knew how to give it to me, didn't even know I needed it maybe, but I think we always have a tendency to kind of do what our parents did or go the exact opposite way. Nobody kind of has like a gray area of with parenting, right? So absolutely, I have set out to be very different with my daughter. And, you know, that comes with its own very different sets of pluses and minuses. The way I'm parenting isn't

perfect. But openness and transparency is a big part of it for me. And course correcting. Yeah. I think one of the first things I would tell my daughter always is, if I'm wrong, yeah, I'm happy to admit that. I wanted to model for her that being wrong is okay, that changing your opinion is actually an amazing thing, not a bad thing, that knowing more and thinking differently is great. Is there any party that ever feels like, you know what, there needs to be more people like me in the Mormon church. They need more people that are seeking this kind of openness and trying to bring other points of view. into your own life, your religious life, what have you, that people should stay and try to, as you said, the people make the culture of the church and be part of that culture.

You know, I don't know that the Mormon church needs me anymore specifically. I don't think they want me and I don't think they need me anymore. Those can be different things. Those are going to be different things. But I'm going to lump them together right across to me. But I do have this conversation with my husband a lot about Utah. My husband works in New York. So many of our friends are on the East Coast.

A lot of my businesses in L.A. or in New York. We have this conversation a lot about why I want to be in Utah. We don't really have family that's close by. We just like to ski. And that was kind of a ski home that's evolved over time. But I think my voice is needed in Utah if I can not to like pat myself on the back. But I think we do need people who are willing to say, I feel differently. And here's why. Or I've had a different experience. And here's what it felt like. I don't know if they need me in sacrament meeting saying those things. But they might need me in Salt Lake saying it. They may need you in Salt Lake. All right. That's good. That's good. So you had never

seen an episode of Real Housewives of Salt Lake before joining the show. Is that right? I'd seen clips on Instagram and I knew some of the ladies and I'd watched all the other housewives. But I had not specifically seen Salt Lake, no. What was happening in your life that you thought, I want this? This is the next step for me. Yeah, I am in an interesting phase when I start my first season. You know, my daughter was done with school. She was just graduating from high school, and she had not gone back to traditional schooling after COVID. She'd stayed doing her own program through homeschooling. And so she was really kind of like ready to leave the nest. We're still working on that, but she's supposedly ready to leave the nest. My husband still

really works and is involved in what he's doing. And I felt like for the first time in my adult life, maybe I had time and resources to do something that was just for me. I did not realize how much I was going to overlap with my daughter or my husband when I said, Yes. Well, yeah, I mean, look, there's a lot of people who have a moment where their kids are leaving the home and some of them say they take up cooking. You know, they decide to paint or draw a new hobby. You decided I want to. I really turned up the heat. I didn't just learn how to cook. I like got in the pot. Right. And there are moments when you're talking to your husband Todd on the show where, you know, he's saying, why are you going to go spend time with people that you're in a fight with or that aren't being honest? But on some level, what it feels like he's saying, like, why are you doing this show? Yeah. Todd really has a hard time with the show as a show. He does. He does. Yeah. Todd's always kind of confused by the parameters of how the show works, I think. But also, it does make sense in terms of our dynamic because I really did do this show to be friends with these women. I did do this show. I say to

everybody, it's been really interesting getting to know most of the women on the show and really interesting getting to know myself, literally seeing yourself in a different way, watching yourself back, your relationships back, seeing what they look like, maybe seeing a pattern I didn't know that I had or that I always did until you literally see it on camera has been eye-opening, to say the least. I really thought, I'm going to be friends with these women. We're going to have fun. My mouth can be real slick, so watch out. Don't upset me. But I have, I've less made friends than I've learned to make friends with myself first. I've had to really accept who I am and what where my flaws are. And then, you know, I think I can be friends with the women after that.

We're getting there. All right. I want to talk about that piece. I want to stay on you because that's interesting. So what are the patterns? Like what is a pattern that you saw? I said, oh, I didn't understand that about myself. Yeah, you know, I would have said before doing the show that I was a very loyal person. I would have said that that's something that people really valued in their friendships with me. And as I watch on the show, I think because I was new, it's very, I'm so I have a lot of respect for the women who built the show and what they did, not knowing what they were doing and building an audience, but to come into an established group and an established group on camera is a really tricky kind of group to break into. So it's hard to not have loyalty

from them, but to be expected to show it and who am I loyal to and housewives can be kill or be killed for sure, you know, when we sit down for a group event. But I didn't realize how quick I am to be like, nope, that's not what was said. This is what was said. You know, I end up kind of spilling the secrets all the time. And it took people kind of saying, I don't like that about you. As I watched the show, I don't like how often you, it seems like you run and tell. You know, there's not a lot of nobility and reality TV. And so me kind of being like, no, let's just all be on an open playing field. You said this. Let's have some accountability for it. Really, that's how it felt to me in the moment. And watching it back, I'm like, no, I'm kind of a snitch, actually. That isn't so

fun. I don't love that about me. There's a better way to, you know, there was just an episode a a couple weeks ago where somebody told me something and I was uncomfortable with what they told me. And thinking about it now, the best way to handle that would have been like, this makes me uncomfortable. You should talk to so and so yourself. I don't want to be part of this conversation. Instead, I kind of like did my little like jokes as a, you know, defense mechanism and I was like, he, he, oh, she's going to kill you for saying that. And then I went home and felt so bad. I called that person and said, this is what's being said about you, heads up. And that was a really bad way to handle that.

In the moment, it was bad. In the moment, I thought it was the right thing to do. We're friends. This is a dark thing that's being said about you, heads up. But in true housewives form, when we all sat down together for a lunch, it came up. Brownwin said this to me that you said to her. And I was like, wow, I don't know if I liked the way that that looks. It looks like I was loyal to no one when I was trying to be friends with everyone.

But you're also on camera for every one of these conversations. So yes, sure, you can call and tell someone you heard you. something. But they will learn about it because it is on camera. So is it actually disloyalty or is it a kind of, are you aware in the moment that you're performing? That's what I'm trying to figure out for myself. Like I said, I think everybody kind of feels so like, what is Todd doing? How does he not know how the show works? I don't know how the show works sometimes either. I really am trying to be friends with Whitney and I really am trying to be friends with Meredith. And Whitney was telling me something about her experience with Meredith on a plane that she really

wanted to confide in me. And then I thought, damn, my friend Meredith's really going to hate that we had this conversation and it's going to surprise her. Like what friendship is different than TV friendship, right? It is. It is. My observation of you in the plain embryo is that you came away okay. Like, you seem to try to suss out what happened to defend Meredith, but ultimately conclude that there was more truth to what the others were saying about it. I think I felt like I had a lot of questions about how it could have happened the way everyone said, without there being some kind of video, photo, law enforcement, you know. Confusing.

You know. Confusing. Yeah. Banned from American Airlines. I just have never been. Like if somebody, I, like, let's talk about this actually. I'm actually interested in this because I'm now, I'm watching this. And the claim seems to be that Meredith loudly went on a tirade perhaps for as long as two

hours drunkenly yelling about Brittany on a commercial flight in which there were other passengers and doesn't seem any flight attendant said anything. There doesn't seem to have been any repercussions. I mean, we've traveled. If somebody was berating a passenger to the point where there would have been some kind of intervention. So at all, at the very least, something's exaggerated, right? That's what I felt like. When I first sat down with them, I was like, there's no way this happened. There's just no way this happened. And everyone has a pretty similar story other than Lisa and Meredith of what happened. And all I can say, I wasn't on the plane. I don't know. I'll never know. I'm almost like an audience standing at this point because I also don't

know. I've talked to all of them. And I think all I can say in this is Meredith doesn't think she did anything wrong. And that's fair. She can feel that way. But she has to, in a group of friends, to hear many of her friends saying, you made us uncomfortable. You made so-and-so feel scared. You made so-and-so cry. This person felt like you were out of control and at least be able to say, okay, I went further than I thought, or I went too far for you. I don't know. I'm picky about apologies. I like them to be actual apologies, not dancing around, you know, vernacular. But to not have anything to be sorry for when everyone feels so wronged, I don't know. This is, this is a big mystery for me and I'm on the show. So this is where I'm sort of, this is where I can't

understand that when the real ends and the show begins. Because there is something that seems something strange that seems to be happening, which is about the power dynamics in the show, which is, there was a way in which Lisa and Meredith were kind of like the alphas of the show. And then they're on this plane. And then they get off this plane. And all of a sudden, Heather and Brittany and Mary are saying, this was a big deal. Yeah. And now we're going to do a party for Brittany to make her feel better. And on some level, it's making a moment of something none of us will be able to see,

but something that does put Lisa and Meredith on their heels. I could see that. I think for me, something I'm learning about reality TV is, you know, I've been a little defensive of myself and my family. I keep feeling like, you know, since the cameras have been here, I happen to have had a very difficult two years. Lots of health problems in my family and some marital challenges that, you know, the spotlight magnifies and all these kind of things. But I also, if I'm being totally honest, think anytime cameras came to my house, you're going to see the same basic human, like, concepts. For me, it's this idea of, like, image and intimacy.

Like, what do I share versus how do I want it to look like what I've shared? you know, connection versus like control. Like, do I want to connect with these women or do I want to control my dynamic with them? You know, I also think for me a big part of it is like self-preservation versus self-revelation. You can't be friends with somebody if you don't reveal who you are and be vulnerable with them, but is being vulnerable on housewives maybe like the worst thing you could do is come in and tell these women where all your weak spots are, right? So I think you're always going to see that. And I think each of us on the show handles each of those. you know, push pulls differently. Some of us show up with a, with a prettier exterior and a more

controlled version of ourselves on camera. And some of us are really ourselves. And I think for me, when I watch this season's episodes back, I didn't feel this way while we were filming, but there does feel like this dynamic shift, maybe within the group of people who are willing to share, people who are willing to admit when they're wrong, people who want to hear what other people are saying, and some friends in the group who maybe don't want to be told when they've hurt you or when they're wrong or when you differ from them. So I don't know if it's a power dynamic in terms of standing on the show, just a different type of relating in a friendship. I always am really trying to be friends with these women. I see you smirking at me like you're not

sure about that. I'm more thinking about it. I really do want to be friends with them. So I always look at it from the lens of, you know, Lisa and I've had a hard time. We have since I've been on the show. Lisa says we were acquaintances before the show. I thought we were friends. Whatever that is, it's different now than it used to be, for sure. And we've had a hard time. And I'm as much to blame for that, I think, as she is, if I'm, you know, being totally fair and taking, you know, my own culpability and things. But I think part of it is, for me, the friendship is more important. And maybe if I can speak for Lisa, she wouldn't want me to. But I think maybe the show is more important for Lisa. So she wants to be right on camera. She wants the audience to feel like what she did

and how she handled me was correct, whereas I don't really care what the audience thinks about her versus me. I'd like it to be good between us, or at least neutral, which I think you see me try this season a few times. But there also is that idea in the back of your mind that there are cameras there and someone's going to watch us at some point, like how much of a punk do I want to look like? Like at some point you have to stand up for yourself. And also part of this is saying what you want the cameras to see is to see that you don't care about the cameras and really just care about the friendship. So in effect, I'm caring about the cameras, right? Yeah, it's very tricky. We're going to take a quick break and we will be right back. Hey, don't go anywhere. There's

more of Love It or Leave It coming up. Love it or Leave It is brought to you by Mint Mobile. You know, you don't have to let big wireless in your overpriced phone bill suck the joy out of the holidays this year because right now all of Mint Mobile's unlimited plans are 50% off. You can get three, six or 12 months of unlimited premium wireless for 15 bucks a month. It's their best deal of the year and makes it really easy for you to give an expensive wireless bill the Scrooge treatment. That's right. Mint Mobile's best deal of the year is happening right now. You can get a three six or 12 month unlimited plan for $15 per month. All mint plans come with high speed data and unlimited talk and text on the nation's largest 5G network. You can bring your current

phone and number over to Mint. No contracts. No nonsense. Crooked Media's own Nina made the switch to Mitt Mobile about a year ago. She says the service is super reliable. Bible that data speeds are excellent, and best of all, she's saving a ton of money compared to her old wireless plan. Whenever we're on the road for Vote Save America, Nina is the one that's figuring it all out, and she's doing it on our phone, and it's working great because it's got Mint Mobile. Turn your expensive wireless present into a huge wireless savings future by switching to Mint. Shop Mint on limited plans at mintmobile.com slash love it. That's mintmobile.com slash love it. Limited time offer upfront payment of $45 for three months, $90 for six months or $180

for 12 month required, which is a $15 a month equivalent taxes and fees extra initial plan term only. Over 35 gigabytes may slow when network is busy. Capable device required. Availability speed and coverage varies. See mintmobile.com. And we're back. So when you say that there are people that are more trying to control their image, you're talking about Lisa? she would be one of the offenders of that I would say yeah sorry no no I'm just curious because I have to say like it's hard to even track what's happening between the two of you and it does seem that like maybe there's a conflict that wasn't on camera that is now playing out without it being spoken about is that possible yeah I think for me I don't think anything that's happened on camera is untrue you see what I say you see how I act you see a lot of my genuine reactions if I've said if it's a happening and cameras are filming, they can have it. So I don't keep anything off of it. I think for me, it was the idea in my first season that Lisa was willing to say things about my family

that I don't think she would have wanted said about her family on camera. And so I kept feeling like, okay, well, if we're not friends, it's none of your business, what happens in my family. And if we are friends and you wouldn't put that on camera, why should I have to put it on it? Like there is a, I don't ever know if we are show friends or real friends. I think maybe right now neither. Right. A few weeks ago, you and Whitney had a conversation about open marriages. Yeah. It's a first in Housewives history. Did you talk about talking about that before cameras were rolling, or did it just happen? It just happened. Another thing I've learned since being on reality TV is listening is key. You got to listen. You got to listen. Talking less would benefit me more. When I started hearing,

you know, all this drama with the plane was so crazy. We need to, you know, film some things and get everybody caught up. The drama I had on the plane was that I saw this tweet about my husband. I had no idea what happened or didn't happen with Meredith and Brittany. So I went into filming those lunches and meetups thinking they all knew what I knew about the tweet about my husband. I assumed the drama from the plane was them all coming to me. Is your husband cheating? What's going on with the two of you? Lisa just said this on the boat and now there's this tweet on the way home, that was my experience on my flight home. And if I had just sat there and let them talk first, both Mary and Whitney, I would have maybe not shared quite so much, right?

I really thought, I'm going to sit down and they're going to come at me about this. I just need to be open how I feel. I'm embarrassed. I'm hurt. We got to figure this out. And they were like, what are you talking about? Why are you embarrassed and heard about Meredith and Brittany? You brought it up. I brought it up both times. Wow. Poor both Whitney and Mary were like, what? Neither of them had seen the tweet, neither of that. They were so, I was so in my own experience and they were so in their own experience that we had no idea what the other was going to say.

Wow. When that conversation happens, do you then call Todd and say, hey, FYI, this thing just came up? I'm sure you're going to be, like what happens after that is on camera? Yeah, Todd and I'd already had kind of a. tough discussion about it. I talked to Todd before I talked to the women, of course, because I came home and saw it, and he was at the house, and it had not gone well. I was upset and exhausted, and he hadn't even really wanted me going on the trip in the first place. So we started at a pretty bad spot, and it escalated from there. And so Todd left early for a business trip. So he

and I were checking like a little, I mean, maybe the first time ever that I've just not responded to his texts or calls in our entirety of our relationship. So I spoke to both Mary and Whitney and multiple days went by before I told Todd that that had happened on camera. Usually I debrief with Todd about everything I film, but that was something I filmed kind of in my own little lane without Todd. You've had some serious conversations with your mother this season, with Todd this season. What does that do? What does knowing it's going to be filmed, how does it change how you talk to each other?

So the amazing thing about both my mom and Todd and, frankly, my daughter Gwen, is that they really do not remember or care that the cameras are there. The three of them are 100% themselves always. None of the three of them ever want to talk to me before cameras come about where things are going. In fact, that one conversation my mom and I had about my pregnancy and that experience that I had no idea that's what she was going to talk to me about. I was like folding up an inflatable costume and I thought we were going to talk about my dad. which was this huge thing that was happening at our house was my dad's care for his Alzheimer's and dementia. And the fact that it took that turn, I think you kind of see me being like, are we doing this or, you know, whatever? And we were already in it and everyone was there. And I've been really

clear that we will do it if it's happening. And it is something that happens. When my mom moved in with me, this is something we have just danced around for almost 20 years in our relationship. And so is there some way in which the fact that you will be filming it? Because you're filming something, well, we should have something to film. We're going to record something. There should be drama and something of interest taking place between us. Does the fact that there is a camera there make the conversation deeper? Does it allow you to say things you otherwise wouldn't say? How does it change? It has to change something. Yeah, I don't think that I think, ooh, I need to have something like salacious and compelling to say when I turn the cameras on. I guess I think really highly of myself because I just always think they're going to be interested in what I got to say. Well, that's good. That's a good way to be on the show. I've never been like, what am I going to say today? I'm just, you're interesting. Of course, there are cameras here. I just figure if the cameras are on that they're going to catch me doing something stupid or funny or weirdly dressed. Yeah. And true. Yeah. Or that they'll cut it if they don't like it and play somebody else's. But once the cameras

around, like, so in that moment with my mom, when she started talking to me about how I was raising my daughter, I was really offended that she would dare bring that up. And then I kind of felt like, you become friends with the production crew and the camera crew and the audio guys and everybody involved in the production. And I was like, I can't believe she's doing this in front of everybody and I can't believe she's saying this in front of everybody. And I had that moment and then I was like, but we are doing it. So I must well just say what I need to say too. And I think you kind of see, especially in that conversation that I ease into it. I kind of am like making jokes. I'm like, well, you don't really mean that. It was a long time ago. And I kind of like, I'm trying to buffer it.

And then I'm like, well, actually did the way you parented me work. Let's actually have this conversation. If we're going to have this conversation. Okay. And I don't know if that's a green flag or red flag about me. I'm like, no, no, no. Okay, let's do it. You know, but it does change because there is an audience immediately. It's not like you film in a, I mean, even in here with you, there's an audience in here. You know what I mean?

There's people in here. Yeah. So, I mean, I already know I'm a neurotic, anxious person. I already know somebody is listening to what I'm saying, let alone when it goes out into the world. So, yeah, having the camera crew there, having the production team, having a showrunner or a producer there. I'm like, what are they thinking about this? Okay, I can't think about that. This is a conversation I have waited 16, 17 years to have with my mom. If she's willing to have it with me, cameras or not, let's do it. There are moments in the first season you filmed where

Todd is pretty harsh, and it does seem like he took feedback from that, that from the reaction to the public to how he spoke to you, he wanted to change how he spoke to you. Yeah. But clearly, that wasn't something that could be on his mind when he was having those conversations the first time. You have this conversation with your mother, and it's rare, I think, to see someone say what is not considered the, like, therapy correct way of talking about this, right? She still feels that it was hard for her to, quote, hide your pregnancy, and that was still hard for her without her saying, but that was the wrong thing to do, and I love you, and I shouldn't have, there's none of that. She's not at that point. Yeah.

Does she see the feedback to that? Is she thinking about the cameras, or I guess you're saying she doesn't? So neither taught her my mom thinks about the cameras. I mean, to their detriment, poor both of them, honestly. You know what I mean? Like, I even have like a line of like, oh, I would never say that on camera. Like I think everyone has like, oh, I'd never do that on camera. And I think I show everything.

But it's been really difficult for both of them. Neither of them are like super social media savvy. But we are not impervious to other people's feelings about us. and both of them have taken a significant amount of backlash for their interactions with me. And I don't know that that's totally fair. One, because I love both of them, and so I'm going to feel for them. Even if I'm having a difficult moment with them, I don't want anybody else to feel it. They're my mom.

That's my husband. I can argue with them. I don't need the public arguing with them. I don't want anybody making fun of them. And also, I don't know that it's wrong to express your real feelings. When you say there's no therapy speak in there, no, neither Todd nor my mom. mom hand holds me, babies me, any of those things. And for the most part, I benefit from that. I think a lot of people benefit from having somebody in their life who will tell it to you,

no holds barred. I could use a little more softness from both of them. But are they villains because they're willing to be real about how they feel? I don't know. That's an interesting thing for me to think about. My experience with Todd and my mom both is that both of them are, I think, too hard on me and feel differently than I do about a lot of things. When it's good, that's a superpower for me with them. You know, when Todd and I are in a good place, I think we're a great couple because we see everything differently. He pushes me to feel differently. I push him to think of different things. When it's bad, it's really hard. So you see those really hard moments, and I don't know that that's fair to judge Todd or our relationship just on those hard moments. But it's also not

unfair to judge him on the things he does and says. So it's really tricky. It's really tricky to watch a show and feel like you have, you know, a real understanding of who somebody is. Yeah, well, with your mom, I actually, it's refreshing that this is not somebody who has already kind of absorbed so much social media and therapy speak that, let's say, that she feels I continue to be hurt by the fact that you being pregnant was miserable for me, right? That's what she feels. Yeah. And it's, I think, better to have it expressed than pretend it's not the feeling. Yeah. But then there's the fact that that's still how she feels. Yeah. And how surely you would like to figure out how to work with her, talk to her, get to a place where she doesn't still feel that way.

I don't know. I am at a real place of accepting my mom. I'm really at a place of accepting my mom. I know who my mom is. This was maybe the most honest she's ever been with me about it. I think before I assumed she was embarrassed to church. I assumed that she thought my parents weren't good parents and that's why I did all these things that were naughty or I should have known better then or that she wanted something for me that I didn't achieve. And I thought it came from this place of like a social stigma. For her to say it was so hard for me is the first time that I've heard how she internalized it versus what it looked like to maybe like the church ladies that she was friends with. And I can deal with that.

For years, thinking my mom was just, like, embarrassed to go to church and what other people might think of me. I didn't know how we had a close relationship if she cared more what other people thought of me than what was happening between her and I. So I know it was harsh for her to say that, but it was harsh in this way of, like, okay, there it is. That's how you feel. And we can move from here, finally. I don't know that I even need my mom to say it wasn't hard for her. If it was hard for her, it was hard for her. Right. I think all of your feelings are valid and real. I don't think you always have to believe every thought you have, and I don't think you have to act on every thought you have. But if that's how you feel, it's how you feel. And she

should be able to say that to me. And I should be able to take it. Hold on one second. We will be right back. Hey, don't go anywhere. There's more of Love It or Leave It coming up. Love it or Leave It is brought you by Bombas this time of year at sensory overload everywhere but one feeling. We're still chasing the cozy feeling. And Bombas has the sock, slippers, and basically everything to get you there. There's something weirdly therapeutic about fresh socks and the sock scientist of bombas have found a way to channel that energy into everything from slippers with sinking cushioning to the perfect fitting ankle sock and that feeling it doesn't stop after one wear it just keeps going they've got answers for all your gifting questions what to get

your son's new marathon training girlfriend how about the bombus running socks what about the neighbor's fussy newborn baby bombas fit like a hug and the design to feel soft and say snug even on the wiggliest of toes how about mom's new young friend she met at the ski lodge believe it or not bombis has something for them, too, because everyone likes the feeling of sinking into a new pair of slippers, and they also make ski socks. Bombas is really stepping up their slipper and slide game. They've got new shapes, new styles, fluffy things, sway things, a little something for every foot. And if there's one thing, bombas knows its feet. And the best part, for every pair of bombas you purchase, Bombas donates one, on your behalf to someone facing homelessness. So anytime you get something cozy, someone else does

two. I'm a huge fan of bombas. I genuinely wear them all the time. I'm in the middle. Right now, as you're hearing this, of moving the last of my non-bomba socks into the the trash and replacing them with Bambas socks, thereby completing my full Bambas sock drawer, and I recommend it. They're super comfortable, soft. They're really well made and long-lasting. I just highly recommend them. You know, they also help people.

But again, not on my mind. All right, that's how good the socks are. I'm glad they help people. I wouldn't want it to stop, but I get them even if they didn't. Head on over to Bambus.com slash love it. Use code love it for 20% off your first purchase. That's B-O-M-B-A-S dot com slash love it. Code love it at checkout.

All right, Bronwyn, you've made this choice at this moment of transition in your life to go on a show where the relationships always have an asterisk because they're on camera, right, where you're subject to withering public scrutiny. And you're doing it at a time when your daughter, who you seem to be so close with and have a great relationship with is leaving. Yeah. And the two figures in your life are deeply ambivalent about you being on television. And you have, like, I think, as you said, they're both really hard on you.

And so watching you, it's the world is hard on you. The other women are hard on you. The people on the show are hard on you. And I wonder if you feel that. Like, we watch you in two seasons. It doesn't feel like there are a lot of people who have your back. Yeah. And you know, that's something that I've learned about myself watching this, too.

I think that I told my husband after the first season, I said, what I've always worried about. I feel like nobody's ever totally knew me and understood me and loved me. Just full stop. I feel like there's this like wake in my history of like, you know, my mom, you saw my mom joking about it. I was an oops baby. Like we've been joking about that since I was a little girl, you know what I mean, that I wasn't wanted, that they'd already had two girls and a boy and they were done. And my mom actually goes further and says, like, she thought it was a tumor in her stomach. And she was like, a tumor would have been easier. I mean, like, that's something that, like, it's family lore since I was a little girl. That's, you know, part of, like,

the makeup of who my personality and who I am. And, you know, to not feel like I fit in in high school, I was kind of a geeky, awkward, weird kind of kid. And I love it now, but that's hard in high school, you know, to have a pregnancy and have somebody say, I'm not interested in being part of it and their family want to hide it. And, you know, you still see the fallout of that years, I mean, decades later with Gwen's grandparents last season. I said to Todd after the last season, like, I just assume that the more someone knows about me, the less they're going to like me. Like, that's just, like, how I feel about myself. And watching myself back, I do see that happening, but I also see what I feed into how that happens. I allow this negativity

and craziness in my life. And I, like you said, I put myself on a show when my daughter was leaving and I was very vulnerable and was like, who wants to look at the two hardest relationships in my life? Well, I don't have much else going on. Like, I am a masochist. And that's my choice. And I do, I don't want to sound like a Todd and Muzzy Apologist. I do love them, but I think that change starts with you. And so when I watch the episodes, I feel like I need to stand up for myself. I need to say that's not okay. Or you can't say that to me anymore. Or you're entitled to feel that way, but it doesn't change how I feel about things. I'm not to be like, oh, I turned 40 this year and my whole life changed. But I turned 40 this

year and my whole life changed. You know, like I do, my dad passed. I did the second season of the show. I don't feel a ton of support. Oh, is from the women. None from Muzzy and Todd sometimes on camera. I love them, but God help them. And then my dad passed right after he stopped filming. And I turned 40 and I just was like, I don't know. I didn't like come on here to burn everything to the ground, but maybe I need to burn everything to the ground. Maybe I need to show up differently for myself before I expect other people to show up differently for me. It's fine. I didn't put the connection to turning 40. Man, what is it? People think that you turn 40 and then do the midlife crisis, it hits at 39. Yeah. It hits when the 40's coming.

Yes. People need to be warned about this. Yes. Because you think, oh, I'm not 40 yet. I'm not. Where were you last year? I was on the other end of my crisis from when I turned 40. Yes. I've said this about myself, which is there's a curve for liking me. Okay. And you start up here and you think, wow, what a charming, interesting person. Yeah. Then it's like, oh my God. Okay. But, but, and I think maybe this is something that's true of both of us, you slowly win him back. Sure. You know what I mean? And then you end up back here, maybe even higher than when you started. What about that? I would love that for myself. I think that's your trajectory on the show. I do. I genuinely do. Okay. I actually honestly, I feel so much better about things. I think, I honestly think

that's my view of you, to be honest. I'm thinking about it in real time. I'm just going to say that your publicist here. I think it's fine. Okay. I liked you and then I hated you, but we might be coming back around. Well, no. I was like, you came on. You were interesting. You were confident out of the gate, which is hard to do. You were funny and smart. And I remember watching you when you first showed up and thinking, they thought they could kind of bat you around a little, but you're too smart for that. That's cool. And then I did see the trajectory of the kind of like turning on people, right? Yeah. But now here you are. I was so excited to see you because you're one of my favorite people to see on the show. So I think that's what a lot of people are feeling. But I think it's a real

thing. I think a lot, I don't know. I don't want to like extrapolate too much, but I think a lot about like victims and like sympathetic victims and like who we feel sorry for and who we don't feel sorry for. Like there's a lot of news stories that I'm always interested like where the trajectory of that information goes. The more we know about somebody and what actually happened between that divorce or that whatever, right? And it's interesting who is sympathetic and who's not and who we feel for or root for, right? And I feel like sometimes with me not to like feel sorry for myself, but the way that my upbringing and my trauma and, like, some of the darker parts of my psyche are is that I, like, almost want you not to like me. I'm like, here's all the bad

things about me. Just, like, eat them, take them, digest it. And then you can leave if you want. But if you stay, you at least you know what you're staying with. And that's a weird way to handle people. Yeah. I didn't even know that I did that until I was literally watching myself be like, I mean, I saw myself in the first season I was on there being like, I'm not going to keep a secret for anybody. If you said something crazy, I don't care if I like you, if I don't like you, tell you it was crazy. It's a weird thing to do. Like that's, it's weird.

I think it's honest. Not all honesty is necessary. No, thank you. You know what I mean? Sometimes the meanest things people ever say is like, I'm just being honest. Yeah. And that's a very housewife thing. When somebody says I'm just blunt or I'm just telling you the truth, watch out.

What's coming next is probably unnecessary. Yeah. To be fair. That's true. That's true. I think I also expect it. I expect that maybe somebody's not going to like me. And so it's just easier if I give you a reason for you not to like me.

And then it's like, well, I knew you weren't going. to anyway and it went exactly the way that I thought. And it wasn't like I really cared and I really tried. And I think some people are effortless and cool and just like wake up that way, easy, breezy, beautiful, whatever. Those people. I'm not that person. I try really hard. I'm super chalant. You know, like I'm really. Yeah. Right. So when I try so hard and it doesn't work, it is devastating for me. So I think sometimes it's easier to just be like, I wasn't going to try anyway. It doesn't matter to me. We were never going to be tight friends, me and you. And that's something I had to see myself doing, like, you know it. And then sometimes you know it.

Yeah, you have to see it. Yeah. Has it been gratifying, though, to also feel like you're being embraced by people that are watching? Do you feel seen in the way you were hoping to be seen? I think that there are parts of my story that really resonate with people. And that is one of the most beautiful things I think you can do is connect with somebody on a shared experience or like on an empathy level, not a sympathizing kind of a situation. I also think it's really freeing for somebody as like Virgo and neurotic and control freak as me to be like, there are some people who no matter what I do are going to hate my guts.

They just do. I'm a stand in for somebody in their life they can't stand or can't speak to or can't fix it with or they just don't like my upper lip. Somebody told me I have a punchable upper lip and a DM, you know what I mean? And I was like, well, it's not something I'm planning to change. So you're just going to always hate. Punchable. It's interesting to know that there are some people who.

I could never do any wrong and some people who I could never do any right. Like, if you told me that before I did the show, I'd been like, I don't think I could handle that. I couldn't. And I've had to learn how to. It's very freeing to realize that how other people feel about me. I know everybody says this. It's really none of my business. And it sometimes has nothing to do with me. Well, it almost always has nothing to do with you. You're about to record the reunion, right? Yeah. And so going into that reunion, who do you right now feel like is in your corner? Who you feel like you need to resolve things with? Who are you think you're never going to be friends with? Yeah. I think I would say Mary, Whitney, Angie in that order are who I'm closest with. I speak to

Mary quite a bit, and it is me reaching out. I love Mary. I love confiding in Mary. I love when Mary kind of sets me straight when I'm spiraling out of control. Mary is, Mary might be the softer Todd in my life at this point. Okay. I like, I mean, interesting. And Todd and Mary actually really get along and really respect each other, which I appreciate and love. Whitney and I have spent a lot of time together this season, and there's more episodes to come. I know what we filmed and how it all kind of pans out, but I respect most of what Whitney does, and I respect that when I don't respect what she's done, that she can handle that. When she and I disagree, she can handle that we are friends, but we disagree. Not everybody can handle that. I like Angie. I don't ever want to fight

with Angie. Angie's got a slicker mouth, and even I do. Angie and I should never come to blows because it will be World War III between the two of us. But Angie's also busy, and so I just see and talk to her less than Mary and Whitney. I feel like I'm in a good place with Heather. I'm in a decent place with Brittany. I think Meredith and I were really bonding over certain things this season, and it really was meaningful to me. And I think in maybe future episodes, you'll see me trying to figure out if Meredith and I are as close as I think we are, and if we are, can that new closeness sustain some criticism I have for her? And so we'll see how that goes at the reunion. You know, we haven't seen all those episodes yet. We will before we film the

reunion. And I kind of could see it going either way between Meredith and I. I'm hopeful for positive oath. And then on the Lisa front, there's a, there's a mirror to what you're talking about, which is, I feel like people have seen you being vulnerable. And I think with Lisa, it seems like that's not happening, that there's sort of a wall up that's, maybe it's bothering you, maybe it's bothering everybody, but do you hope to resolve that? Do you believe that you were wrong to think it was a friendship? Like what, what are you learning as you filmed this season about what it is like to think you're friends with somebody and then discover it wasn't what you thought? Yeah, I think at the beginning of the season, you see kind of the fallout of

our reunion from last year. I was very hurt that she said we were never. her friends. I was very hurt that she seemed to want to embarrass me and like do this whole thing at the reunion that felt very mean-spirited and like digging and whatever else into my life and kind of exaggerating things to make, not only are you not my friend, but you were never good enough to be my friend. And I'm not going to treat you even like subhuman at this point. And, you know, I really don't respect how I showed up at the beginning of filming. I came in and was kind of like, okay, well, if we're not friends and this is what we do as enemies, I'm going to do it right back to you. And it didn't feel good. It didn't feel good as we were filming it. And I,

I know so many people have messaged me and were like, good for you, standing up to her about the lawsuits, or you look so funny, whatever. That was all honestly just, like, hate-filled for me to get that mad at her to feel that confident while she is yelling, your gal dix. I don't know if I can say that on here or not. You can do it every one. You can say it on Brava. You can say it Okay. Okay, then I can say anything. Anything, yeah. And for me to kind of respond, you know it had gone really far between the two of us. For me, be like, I don't care, say what you want to say. You know, whatever. That's not how I want to be. I want it to hurt when a friend hurts my feelings, because I want us to be friends. It should hurt that she was saying those things to me. And it should

have hurt her that I went for her too. And I think after I watched that back, I was like, damn, things were really bad between the two of us. I was willing to do something and be something I don't want to be. I'm not going to say she dragged it out of me. I showed up and chose to do all of those things and say all of those things myself. But it's not who I want to be. And so you see me have this moment of a truce with her. And I've really tried to stick to that. I don't speak about her husband. I don't speak about her kids. I don't bring up anything I hear. Negative, positive, neutral. Nothing. If she says something funny and I'm in the room, I will laugh. If she's not speaking to me, I don't make eye contact with her.

You're very self-conscious, but you're a way, you're very thoughtful about what it is to be on this show. And I wonder if- I had a lot of therapy before I was on the show. And I think my therapist probably wish, okay, so my therapist divorced me. I'd had the same therapist for like 10 years. And she was like, it is time to go. You need to be with someone else.

Like, this is now becoming its own issue that you won't talk to somebody else. Like, we shouldn't be talking for 10 years. And I was like, but I love you. And she was like, that's the problem. Wow. She should talk to someone new. Broken up with by your therapist. Yes.

And I was like, but if I go to someone else, I have to explain all these things that you know about. You got to go through all the old stuff. And you know what she said to me? She said, actually, you don't. If you and I have dealt with it, you don't need to tell them all of those things. You can just meet them where you are now. And I was like, but they would need to know to understand me. And she was like, then you and I haven't done as much work as you think we have.

And I'm not the person for you. She did break up with me. And I sometimes wonder. Left you no way in. Just cut off every excuse. She was done. She like blocked me, changed my number. she moved. She changed your middle name. Like, it's over with her and I love her. And I miss

her. And I talk about her all the time. And sometimes I'm like, I wonder if she's just like scrolling Instagram on a Sunday and sees a clip of the show. And it's like, damn it, Bronwyn, we talked about this. We worked about this. Seven years ago. So it's interesting to know better and then not always show up as that better version of yourself. Well, that's, isn't that the thing? Often we all know better. Of course, we know better, but it's so hard to show up as the better person we know who wants to be the bigger person. It's exhausting. It's not that fun. No. Do you think the other Housewives on your season have a level of reflection about it like this? Or do you think part of, like, is that a weakness for you? Because it seems like to me, being oblivious is a strength.

There are times when people say, you know, I've read commentary that like, oh, Lisa doesn't somebody I'd want to be friends with in person, but I love her on the show. And then I feel like the same kind of behavior from me is really heavily criticized. And I'm like, damn, what would I feel like to be so delusional and just, like, be lauded for it? Like, queen delusional behavior. And like, not that I'm saying she is, but that's, you know, commentary I read or whatever. I think everybody has different reasons for doing the show. I really wanted to be friends with these women. I really wanted to, like, try something new for myself, see what happened. I really, really wanted to be on drag race as a guest judge. I, like, did housewives

to do that. Other people want to show their businesses. Other people want to make money. So I think everybody shows up as the version of what they want. So, you know, love me or hate me, I really want friendships. And so for me, you're seeing me in real time trying to figure out what a friendship with each of them individually looks like and as a whole and with the layer of cameras on top, too. It's wild. Hold on one second. We will be right back. Hey, don't go anywhere. There's more of Love It or Leave It coming up. Love It or Leave It is brought to you by Aora Frames.

Maybe you can relate to this. Maybe you say this year is going to be different. You're going to plan ahead. You're going to think about a perfect gift. And then all of a sudden, it's last minute and you're what? You're shoving cash into an envelope. You're buying a gift card this year. You can skip the panic and give an aura frame.

Why is it so hard to find a personal gift for the people your closest to? Well, now you don't have to worry so much about it because you can get a frame from aura and then you can give them the pictures they would love to see on their digital picture frame. Every frame comes packaged in a premium gift box with no price tag. So there's no gift wrapping necessary. You can even preload photos before a chips and keep adding from anywhere anytime. Upload unlimited photos and video to your frame for free.

Just download the ORA app and connect to Wi-Fi. It only takes two minutes to set up a frame using the ORA app. The app allows you to share photos and videos effortlessly at any time, straight from your phone. If you want to personalize your gift, you can add a message before it arrives. You can't wrap togetherness, but you can frame it for a limited time. Save on the perfect gift by visiting AuraFrams.com to get $35 off or best-selling Carver Matt Frames

named number one by Wirecutter by using promo code Love it at checkout. That's A-U-R-A-Frames.com promo code, love it. This deal is exclusive to listeners and frames sell-out fast, so order yours now to get it in time

for the holidays. Support the show by mentioning us at checkout terms and conditions apply. Okay, we're back. How often does politics come up? It's in the news while you're recording. There's a lot happening in the world. Do you talk about it while you're filming? They don't use it. Do you know that it's not going to be something they're going to use?

There are a few times it's come up and I know that they're not going to use it. So if it's something I really care about, I will say how I really feel about it. A lot of times I just know it's not going to be used so I don't get super in depth with them. I also think, you know, my husband has business partners who I very much differ from in political opinion. And it is a, conversation at our house ongoing, you know, how do we show up in this day and age and deal with family members, coworkers, neighbors, people we love and care about who feel differently. Todd doesn't feel differently than me, but he works with people by choice who do. Where does what's best for his business cross into, I don't like it, or it makes me uncomfortable?

But, you know, Todd for the first time the other day said, oh, yeah, do you and everybody on the show feel the same way? And I was like, damn, Todd, no, we don't. Okay. No, we don't. I feel very differently than some of the women on the show about major things. Yeah, of course. It's hard to suss out who's a Trump voter in this group. I don't know who anyone votes for everybody votes. You don't know? Everybody votes in their own little booth and the privacy of their, and I have not yet voted. As a new American citizen, I have not voted yet. So I'm not going to speak about anybody's voting habits, but I do hear things. I can extrapolate from how people behave and what they do. And I hear about donations and other things. And I think, yeah. Nothings I would do, but they probably think not things I would do about me all the time.

Brittany, I wasn't going to bring – she seems like a lost soul to me. I feel really nervous for her when she's on screen because it's like I don't feel like you're – like with you, you know, you've had good moments on the show. You have moments where maybe I think you probably look back and say, oh, I didn't like that. Sure. But you feel like a strong, thoughtful person who is like in control of the decisions they're making. Yeah. And I see this person on the show and I'm like, I don't know why I'm watching this moment with the daughter. I don't know why I'm watching this moment with an Osmond. I feel like I'm, I feel like,

I feel unsafe. So I think for better or worse, I know who I am. So sometimes when I'm nervous, I really am confident and I can like turn it on. My daughter always says, you know, I'm really mad when I'm like serial killer calm. Like I don't like lose it and scream very often. I just get like really focused. And I'm like, I remember exactly where we were and what day it was. And it was 209 p.m. and you had a cerulean blue shirt on. You know, like I get real intense when I'm upset. Or I kind of like cry and crumble. I don't really have a lot of between. I can handle it or I cannot. And I think sometimes what I feel like with Brittany is that she gives us the impression she can handle it. Like she will poke the bear a little bit with Meredith.

She will taunt me a little bit. And then when we give back a version of that to her, maybe it's too strong. Maybe it's harsher than I think it is. But she does seem to not be able to like handle the rata-tat-tat of it. You know, she wants to like start it, but she can't finish it and maybe even can't like middle it. You know what I mean? And so that is an interesting thing where I do feel for her watching it back. I'm like, damn, it looks like we bully her a little bit. But I'm like, no, I was there and I lived that. And she definitely brought that TikTok up or she definitely called me a gold digger. And I was like, well, what's Osmond of it all? You know, like, whatever. But then there is this feeling that like she's the oldest of the group. You know, she's had multiple marriages and divorces. Not that that's a good or bad thing, but just like, you know, if Todd and I didn't work out, I would think she could be somebody who. told me what it felt like when she got divorced that time or, you know, whatever. But I don't feel that like real surety from her. I don't know. It's really tricky. I don't always know what's going on there. So it's interesting because I like want to be friends with her and she almost feels like a little sister, but not a little sister. But also sometimes she's like so

frustrating. I'm like, nope, we are going to do this. Anybody else who said that to me, I would have a clap back for her. So we're going to fight. We're going to do this. Because you feel you feel nervous for her. You feel the same thing. You feel kind of like, like almost protective because it feels something not quite right. Yeah. I said to somebody the other day, and I don't know this is the best analogy, and maybe I shouldn't repeat it, but I was like, sometimes it feels like a little kid kicking my chair. I would never turn around and yell at a little kid. So sometimes I want to be like, please stop kicking my chair. Please stop kicking my chair. And then I do yell at her, you know? And then she's like a five-year-old and she can't handle it. So I'll say this. I love that

Brittany is very herself, and people used to say this to me, and I didn't take it as a compliment, but I mean this as a compliment for Brittany. She does bounce back from disappointment, and she rebounds very well. I mean, she can take a beating from all of us. I mean, we all yelled at her on the sprinter van, and she, like, you know, toss, toss, glindaed her hair and, like, got it back together and kept going. You know, I would have gone home from Porta Vy Arta. Yeah, you would have been, like, leveled. Yeah, no, that is interesting. She can take it. I thought about leaving a couple time supported by our time. And I didn't go through that Sprinter Van Melee. You know what I mean? So there's part of me that's like, Brittany is so tough and she knows what she's doing.

And I think there's something very specific she wants out of the show. And I like see her angling for that. And then other times she doesn't show up that way. And it's interesting to like watch it happen and have grace for it, but also be frustrated by it. Because it's in it, sometimes directed at you. Yeah. Maybe Brittany and I have like the realist friendship of all of us then because I know her weaknesses. And I like, respect and like them, but they also drive me nuts? Like, is that the most honest relationship I have on this show? A lot to think about. I have to really consider if I mean that or not. Yeah, we've got to work through that.

That blows my mind. We've got to get a new therapist. You're Broadway producer. Yeah. Cabaret. Queen of Versailles, you have Kristen Chenowit, Stephen Schwartz, F. Murray Abraham. Mm-hmm. What the fuck?

I know. I know. I was bummed. You know, I was too. And I would, you know, Queen of Versailles got real messy right before. the opening and like what my involvement was going to be and something my husband really was like not you know excited about my husband's really a numbers guy and he was hearing a lot from people behind the scenes that it was not going well and i kept being like uh it's going to go

well christian cowen's doing the costumes christian channel was in it like the story is everything and it's this is kind of what i was talking about earlier about like it's interesting how things play out who we root for who we don't who what's this like queen of versailles just lovingly imploded. It just imploded. And I feel awful for the people who work on it, who were so excited about it. People put so much time and dedication into all of the roles that go on to put on a Broadway show. But it's interesting what we will say is too far. I see a lot of people saying, like, the story's not, you know, appropriate right now, or it was glorifying overconsumption or, you know, all these other things. And it's interesting to me what we'll watch

should be like rooting for and what we will say, nope, that's too far. Well, it's funny. I saw it in previews. And what I thought was, oh, this is a show. It goes to our conversation where as they're making it, they're not thinking about what the show was meant to be, but actually they're worried about the criticism. So you feel the kind of layers of it's too much glorifying wealth. You know what I mean? Like you feel those things kind of being layered on top of it and then it kind of falls under the weight a little bit.

Yeah. Well, I saw a lot of commentary. on Instagram from people saying, well, if you haven't seen it, you don't actually know how it ends. And I was like, but I shouldn't be going to a show wondering how it ends. I should be going to a show open-minded about it. Right. And if the audience was already sure what they were going to get from this, like no matter what the ending was, it was doomed. Yeah.

If you go into it with that mindset. So it's, I feel sad for everybody involved. I really do because so many people, it's not just the big names, right? So many people put everything into this and it's an opportunity for every. everybody and it's hard when a dream never works, you know, no matter what it is. But I don't know. It's really interesting in our society right now what people will just glom on to and say like absolutely not. Like it felt like a mob mentality towards that show. It did. I think it's exciting that you want to support Broadway shows. Like I love going to musicals and very few seem to be

working. Like are you going to look for another opportunity? Or you keep doing it? Yes. My husband has a very good friend who was a Navy SEAL and then did like consulting. They met because he did consulting for my husband at HP and he did like the Miami Dolphins and like this very wide weird career history that's very fascinating. And he's the kind of person who I'll see him over dinner and he'll be like, how are you? And I'll be like, good. And he'd be like, don't lie to me. This is what's going on. And like immediately make me cry. Like he just gets right in on the tender meet right in the way. And he's fascinating. But he now does investing in Broadway shows. And so he does it from this whole algorithm and storytelling and all these components that are so fascinating for me.

For me, it's really about storytelling. You know, when we first got into it, Cavaray felt like a story that needed to be retold in this moment to a new audience, to fresh eyes who were maybe experiencing a very same situation. I at the same time really wanted to be part of Suffs and was like desperately trying to get in on Suffs because, again, felt like a story that needed to be told in an election year about what it feels like to really talk about women. women's rights, not just women's reproductive rights, but women's rights in general. So for me, it's always about storytelling. When I get dressed in the morning, when I go see a Broadway show, when I'm trying to figure out what's going on with me and Brittany, it's always about how am I, like, connecting to this person's story and who they are and what they're trying to tell me about themselves.

So I hope there's more Broadway in my future. Yeah, of course. Last question. As you said, you became a U.S. citizen quite recently. It's in the last year, right? Yeah, this year. Why didn't you become a citizen when you were a kid at some point? And then why did you want to go through it now?

It feels like buying stock and Theranos like after. You know what I mean? It's like a cool time to push your chips forward on America. Right? I know. I know. And everyone says that has that kind of criticism for me. And I feel the exact opposite.

I'm not critical. Listen, I would be clear, we're glad to have you. Welcome. Thank you. It's a messy family. We've got a lot of issues. But more than merrier is what I say. I feel like I married myself into this family tree somehow.

No, you know, my parents are not U.S. citizens. Both my parents were born outside of the U.S. and moved here as adults and had my siblings in the U.S. so they just were automatically U.S. citizens. It wasn't something my parents were like desperate for them to have. They just had it. I wasn't born in the U.S. And it was not foreign. When we traveled, my parents didn't have U.S. passport.

So we always went through as a family no matter what. I was not odd by any way or shape or form. And then we moved to Europe when I was a little girl. And it just, like, people think my name is weird or they don't know how to spell it or pronounce it. That's my name. I've always known that. It's not weird to me. Brownman feels like a normal name. It just felt like who I was that I wasn't a U.S. citizen. So I went through all of high school and college and I didn't really think about it until I was kind of seriously dating Todd. And he would be annoyed that he had global entry and I did not. And that was honestly, like the first time that I was like, this is kind of weird that I I don't have it. I mean, I've always paid taxes. I've always done all. I mean, like, since I was a teenager teaching little kids gymnastics classes after school, you know, whatever. And then I kind of, you know, over the last maybe 10 years felt a shift in my politics. You know, I think most people go through like a understanding in college of what works for them separate from what they grew up with or maybe reinforces what they grew up with. And that all kind of happened at once for me being like,

oh, I want to do more than donate, speak out, you know, give money. Right? And volunteer. I want to actually vote. And my daughter was turning 18 and was able to vote. And it was upsetting to me trying to convince her that this was this important, sacred thing when I'd never gone through any of the hoops to do it myself. I just talked about it. So I decided to do it. And it was something that I had a really intentional way I wanted to do it all by myself. You know, Todd has the resources and connections and all kinds of things to have probably made it easier for myself than I did. Yeah, I could have. Go through the backdoor of the DMV kind of thing. Exactly. Or, you know, he's done some stuff, different government contracts at his, you know, private equity firm, that kind of thing. I'm sure somebody could have been called, you know, whatever, to help me get to the right person. If I really wanted it, I'm just being honest. It's funny. It's like, okay, how about this? Here's a Spanish passport. Here's, you know, I mean, probably. I'm like, I know that sounds awful, but I probably could have had an easy time if I wanted it. But I decided if I was going to do it. So much discourse is. said around just become a citizen. Just do it the legal way. Just immigration would just be solved if everybody did X. And so I was like, well, I'm going to see what it feels like. And I will tell you, I'm so glad I did because it is difficult. It is a lengthy process. There is a lot of fear involved in it. And I went through it at a really spicy time. I really did. So I was approved at the end of

24. I'd already done my application. I'd had my interview. I took my test. And the Salt Lake City Office doesn't do same day citizenship after you take. your test and have your interview, they give you a date to come back. And I had a date for February. And the administration changed between when I was approved and when my swearing-in date was. And I spent all of December and January panicked about what that meant for me. Was it going to change? Were they not going to be doing swearing-ins? Was it like, were they going to revamp my application? Was I have to start all over? And so I really was panicking. And then my green card was set to expire before my swearing in date

and we were filming for Bravo and at any moment you have to be ready to travel and do all these things and the thing that's interesting is your status as a resident can expire but your typical

your card your physical card can expire so I am allowed to go in and out but it's very difficult if your cards expired so I was like lost in translation I hadn't had my swearing in date

and you can't apply for a new green card when you have been approved to be a citizen so we had this like limbo zone and all these Ice raid started happening and I was like, wow, people don't think that a, I mean, I'm white and I'm married to somebody successful and wealthy and I have time and resources and privilege. And I was

like, this could be nearly dark for me. I could have a problem. You know, and going to my swearing in, my green card had already expired. And you have to show it to check in. And I thought, you know, I could get arrested going for my swearing in. It is scary. You know, I have to had days where they said, come this day for your interview and you get a week's notice, if I had a typical nine to five job, I might not have been available at 10.30 on a Wednesday. If I didn't have a printer at home, if I wasn't a native English speaker to answer the questions and understand exactly what's being asked on an application, there's a lot of things I think people don't understand about what it looks like to actually go through the process to become a citizen. And

in all transparency and honesty, I freaked out mid-January and hired an immigration attorney. I was scared to death that in those last few weeks, something was going to happen. You were okay, though. You went through the test. You were going to always... I mean, I was already done and approved. And you get like, you're approved and you have a swearing-in date. You just have to come back. And it's actually this really fun thing. And in Salt Lake, they do it as a group. And everyone does the oath together. And everyone gets to talk if they want to. And I wore like a little red wine blue outfit and all works. And it's very ridiculous. You get this piece of paper that literally you cannot lose because it is, you know,

your citizenship hinges on this piece of paper. And you also have to mail it in to get your passport. And I was like, but if I mail it in and I lose, it's very stressful. It is. But I hired an attorney and he went with me to my swearing in. And he said to me, stay in the parking lot in your car. I'm going to go up and check you in. And if there's the presence of ice, I will just make sure that there's no issue. Like when you check in, there's like a list and they have all these things, whatever. And he goes, I just want to see what it feels like. Even me already approved, just coming for a swearing in. It's like a nice ceremony. He was like, let's just see what the vibe is in the office before you come up. Let's just make sure. That's smart. And I think that people need to understand that. It's not, it's not so black and white. You're illegal or you're not. There's so many nuances to what it looks like to have the legal, as people say, process to U.S. citizenship. Do you get any questions wrong on the test? I did not. But they asked them to me verbally. I got to do it verbally. And I always tell people, I studied 45 minutes a day for like three or four weeks.

you could have studied four to five minutes and passed the test that I was given. The questions were ones that I already knew. There was a lot I didn't know about like the Spanish-American War and things like that that I was really worried about. But one of the questions was I needed to name a local representative for myself. I needed to be able to name some of the colonies. I think it was like five of the original colonies. They asked me about like legislative executive, you know, all the branches, that kind of a thing. So there were things that I felt like I did have a good grasp on. But I mean, I made flashcards. I got the U.S. citizenship for dummies from Amazon. I did the whole thing. And you're going to see a little bit of it on the show. That's exciting. I imagine, by the way, also, there are a fair number of citizens that would have also struggled and needed the flashcards. I actually think, okay, Bravo's not here. I can give you a little spoiler. There's discussion about my citizenship coming on the show. I have an event around it. And I think in confessional, they didn't ask me, of course, because I'd already study, but I think they asked the other women some of the the questions from the citizenship test. So if that makes the episode, I would love to see how many

of them know the answers to those questions. I cannot wait to find out. That is honestly terrifying. Brahma Newport. Thank you so much for your time. So good to talk to you. Great conversation. Really appreciate it. And I'm excited for your next Broadway show, but I'm also excited for this reunion. I've got a lot to look forward to. I'm not going to invite you to the reunion, but maybe we'll go to a Broadway show together. Okay, perfect. Good deal. Good deal. If you're already scrolling endlessly, which we know you are, don't forget to follow us at Crooked Media on Instagram, TikTok, and all the other ones for original content, community events, and more.

You can also find Love It or Leave It on YouTube for videos of your favorite segments and other YouTube exclusive content. And if you want to sing our praises or rip us a new one, please drop us a review. Finally, if you want to listen to Love It or Leave it, add free and get access to exclusive shows, go to crooked.com slash friends to subscribe on Supercast, substack. YouTube or Apple Podcasts, wherever you are, you can find us. Lover or Leave It is a crooked media production. It is written and produced by me, John Lovett and Lee Eisenberg.

Kendra James is our executive producer, Bill McGrath and Caroline Restin are our producers, and Kennedy Hill is our associate producer. Hallie Keeper is our head writer, Sarah Lazarus, Jocelyn Coffin, Peter Miller, Alan Pierre, and Suba Argoal are our writers. Jordan Cantor is our editor, Kyle Seiglin, and Charlotte Landis provide audio support. Stephen Colon is our audio engineer. Our theme song is written and performed by Sure, Sure. Thanks to our designer, Sammy Kuderman.

Reves for creating and running all of our visuals, which you can't see because this is a podcast, and to our digital producers, David Tolls, Claudia Shang, Mia Kelman, Delon, Villanueva, and Rachel Gaieski for filming and editing video each week so you can. Our head of production is Matt DeGroat, and our production staff is proudly unionized with the Writers Guild of America East. It's love it, or leave it. It's love it, or leave it. POMAYOR.

Thank you.