Lovett or Leave It - Lovett or Leave It Presents: Bravo, America! (with John Cochran)

Episode Date: November 18, 2025

Survivor hall-of-famer John Cochran revisits his legendary rise from tribe traitor to king of the island. He gets into the bullying antics of his first go at the crown, the mixed bag of superfans joining the game, and how the Survivor arena isn’t that too far off from the political one. He and Lovett also bond over their compulsion to self-deprecate, which seems to have worked out pretty well for them both so far. For a closed-captioned version of this episode, click here.For a transcript of this episode, please email [e-mail] and include the name of the podcast. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

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moment. If you do not understand the dynamics of reality television, take a listen to how Congresswoman Sarah McBride put it on Ponsave America earlier this year. Some of my colleagues are treating me the way they are treating me for a couple of reasons. One, it's because they want attention, right? They want to employ the strategies of a Bravo TV show to get attention in a body of 435 people. And the way to do that is to pick a fight with someone and throw a wine in their face. Today, I'm joined by Survivors, John Cochran. He made his debut in season 23. and then he came back to win in season 26. Jeff Probst has called him one of, if not his favorite, survivor competitors

because of his unlikely comeback story as a scrappy, self-deprecating nerd who overcame the odds on the island. We dig into Cochran's experience being bullied, though he questions the term in his first run and how he's able to understand a control dynamic in his second season on the show and win. We also talked about the ways in which Survivor has evolved alongside our culture, and as politics become more mean and toxic and bullying, Survivor has become more sincere and almost a bit more wholesome. It was a great conversation. I loved getting to talk to John Cochran about Survivor, reality TV,

what it says about our politics. So here's my conversation with John Cochran. John Cochran, thanks for being here. Thank you so much for having me. So you hold this historic place in Survivor lore, because you were on two seasons. And in your first season, you were kind of put upon.

You were, I think, buffeted by events. You tried to make the best of it. You got a lot of shit from people on your tribe. And then you come back three seasons later and you have one of the greatest runs in Survivor history. Do you agree with that? I mean, that's a very kind mythological way of putting it.

I felt the first time that I was kind of, it was a self-fulfilling prophecy that people were, I went in with so much insecurity that it was kind of the fact that people didn't respond well to me. I can also kind of blame myself. See, I thought you might say something like that. So let's, I want to get into this. So just, okay. I'm sorry. No, no, no. So you're already apologizing. Don't apologize. I want to talk about your evolution between the two seasons because I do think there's something about what happened to you that speaks to something larger about reality television. But for people that aren't familiar, do you just, in, what is your story of what happened the first time

you were on Survivor? So the first time, I mean, I went on to the show, during an era of the show, and it would derisive refer to as being populated by actors, a lot of models and actors on the show that hadn't necessarily seen Survivor before, weren't super passionate about it, whereas I had been this big, nutty super fan that wrote a paper about it in law school and used to hand out newsletters and were memorabilia at a school. So when I got to the island I think I had all this theoretical knowledge

of what I was supposed to do but disregarded the fact that it's fundamentally a social experience and if the people that I'm with don't respond well to me and I don't respond well to them that all the knowledge about what day to play and idle

when a merge is going to happen it means nothing if they don't want to sit and just have a conversation with you so I think that first time sorry if I'm going on till long can call me off at any point You're not going on too long

We had the tribe our tribe captain who's returning players on each team and our captain my captain was Ozzie who's this physical beast Maybe the best challenge competitor of the game's ever seen. He can climb coconut trees effortlessly.

You can dive into the ocean with a spear and come up with fish. But I think by having him be the tribe captain, that kind of set the value system for the group. And so it's like if you're on the Aussie tribe, you better be good at challenges. You better be kind of like a cool social person. And I didn't fit into that pocket. I was kind of the nervous guy that's like I didn't want to take off my shirt. Like the first moment on the first episode, Ozzy was like, hey, let's all get in underwear and go to the ocean and bond. And I had watched the show before.

I felt like there was like at least an hour where you're standing around the beach talking to each other and collecting wood. This is like, no, immediately get in your underwear and go into the ocean. And so that was like, just initially, I didn't want to take off my shirt right away. And I think that probably was not the best introduction to my tribe mates who were all having fun in the ocean, making a spectacle of myself over my discomfort. And then just, it progressed. I was not super well integrated in my tribe, and then there came a point around halfway through the season when there's a merge.

And I was getting votes at like every single tribal council, which is, even though when you're watching the show, you're like, oh, that was last week's episode. But when you're out there, it's like, oh, no, that was like last night. And I just had to go to bed with these people that, like, just voted me off. And those things accumulates that by the time the merge arrived, there was a part of me that's like, I should just jump to the other side. Why am I sticking with this team that keeps trying to vote me off and convincing Ozzy to go home or stay instead of me? I don't know. So I jumped sides.

And if you're an Aussie fan at home, that was like a very disappointing moment for the season because it kind of put a, you know, blew up his plans. And I don't know, then I pretty quickly got voted off after flipping. It didn't work out for me strategically. I didn't integrate into the new tribe as well as I was hoping I would. It was a very religious, it was an unusual group of players that I think historically there hasn't been that tight knit of a group. I feel like usually you'd be able to find the people on the bottom of the peck mortar and maybe find some fluidity there. But it was really this impenetrable group and I just got kicked off a couple weeks after flipping. So I would like to show the picture of you once you did take your shirt off.

I think this captures what happened to you in that season kind of metaphorically. Can we show that picture? That's the second time, actually. Is that from the second season? Yeah, yeah. The sunburn was the second season. Oh, my God.

That's your second run of it? Well, I actually think it applies better to what happened to your first season. God damn it. What the, what? This is your second season and this happened to you? What happened?

Why didn't you put sunscreen on? What was going on in your smart guy? What the fuck was this? This is so bad. I thought I was just about to have an encouraging speech. So, well, I get burnt very, very easily. I'm a red-headed guy. I'm very vulnerable.

And there is sunscreen available off camera, so I can't blame the show and say we didn't have access to it. The problem is that the first, this is like the first episode of my second season. Right when you arrive on camp, we went to a water wrestling challenge. So all the sunscreen I had on me washed off immediately because we were fighting around in the ocean. And then they did this very scenic, like, pirate ship ride to camp that didn't even make the episode. We just sat in the ocean for like three hours waiting for helicopters. to come film us.

And it was during that time where for continuity purposes I should probably just keep on my sweater vest because I should have just put on all my shirts and covered my skin but then I got back

and I had an inverted sweater vest of very pale sweater vest shape on my chest and then red everywhere else. The weird thing is that kind of at the time I was like oh, I'm going to be medically evacuated because they brought in doctors

and everything. It was that bad. Yeah, my feet got too swollen to wear shoes so I'd wear Brenda's flip-flops because they were the only open-footed footwear available. I was kind of convincing myself

like maybe this will be funny because I was already like thinking like I'm going home and this is at least an anecdote like the nerdy sunburn guy got medically evacuated for it but it weirdly I think strategically was maybe helpful not that I was already like a threat coming in but it definitely neutralized any threatening qualities of me of like oh there's the guy that I was not even allowed to leave the shelter for a couple of days because they didn't want me in the sun so and those are critical days at the beginning of the season where everyone's kind of coupling off but let's say that maybe it's strategically worked out in the long run even though physically is very painful because you didn't seem like a threat at the beginning

of that season. Yeah it's like a wounded bird kind of. So back to the season with where you, your first season. So I want to try to get at this, which is you talk about how, oh, you know, you didn't really gel with your tribe at first. Then you flipped sides because they were, you never really felt like you belonged in that group and you'd been getting votes. It was much worse than that. They were incredibly hostile to you in a way that was not strategic. They seem to just viscerally dislike you. Yeah, after our flipping, definitely.

I mean, there was like a big reaction to me after flipping where they were yelling at me. And, yeah, there's like, they even showed, like, an Emmy's, like, most outrageous moments in reality of the year. It was just night vision footage of me being called disgusting, like, doing a little, like, clip reel. But before that, it was more, I think it was very, and during that era of the show, tribal strength and performance and challenges was a huge priority. And I would get so nervous in these competitions and that would come back and be apologizing. I'm sorry I got nervous there and I think that just added to my reputation as the guy that like if we lose it's his fault so there's probably just and if Ozzie's your captain he's like all about challenge performance I think it trickled down yeah you're still blaming yourself for it so I they didn't like you and that's a flaw like you have great qualities right and so they're not liking you is not a reflection on you or though in some sense of course it has to be but it's also a reflection on them right because You come back and win the next time you're on the show. So clearly that was in you.

They didn't like you because you're, you know, a smart, anxious, Jewish guy. And, like, right? I mean, part of this is on that. I don't want to say it's because I'm Jewish, right. Well, part of it, well, the qualities that go along with that were not qualities that they appreciated. And internally, when you're trying to live on an island and there's limited resources and there's lots of stress and physical reliance, like probably the anxious. guy that can't do anything physical that's mainly there to be like maybe there's going to be an endurance challenge

next like isn't that helpful because that was my main contribution was like trying to decode tree mail which I don't know didn't endear me that much to them you're still doing it also one of like I don't know I'm like it's ancient history with them and we're all kind of on good terms and like I don't care about that look I'm sure that you have your related this is

how many years ago was your first appearance? 14 years ago 14 years ago this is not a judgment of where they came and how you think of them now i think it's okay to while acknowledging that these are full-fledged human complicated human beings that you've of your relate you've talked about it since you've evolved since i want to talk about what happened while you were there because in watching it there is a um a way in which you were isolated from the very beginning that felt like yes we're it didn't feel like it was part of the game it didn't feel like they were casting you out strategically it felt like you were um you were um

it felt like high school, and it did feel like bullying, even before you flipped. And I wonder if you, you've been reluctant to acknowledge that in the past, but, like, you were bullied before you flipped. There was definitely, like, a lot of condescension. There was one thing that was, like, very unpleasant where, like, I'm a big animal guy. And they showed this in, like, the extra clips scene, but, like, I didn't want to, I didn't want to deal with the chicken having its head cut off. But, like, Ozzy was very insistent that I had to hold the chicken while the head was cut off because it would be, like, some growth experience for me. and then like I'm holding it and then they cut the hen off

and I don't I'm just keeping I'm still holding it because I don't like I don't know what they do in that case it's fratlapping around like as it does and they started like honestly and the guys were laughing

I mean they said it looked like I was having sex with the dead chicken because I didn't want to let go of it because I was afraid it was going to happen and it's like it was already a slightly upsetting experience than to have it that was the one thing when I was like

I don't feel too bad if I if I write down somebody's name tonight but bullying it's tough to say bulls I'm just reluctant to that because I, I don't know. Why? It's such a contrived environment that it's like, usually in our everyday life, it's not, I'm going to, you don't get to just eliminate someone. So like bullying, not bullying, but like exclusions built into the game.

It's a game of musical chairs and can you sit with us and can you not. So like the fact that I was one of the people that didn't have a seat for a while, I can't completely blame them. But I don't know. We just didn't know, I'm sure I was, like I said that maybe we got oral herpes from one of the challenges that we did. Like, that was probably a weird thing to say that turned some people off. Well, yeah, that's a great example. So you, like, made a joke. That was a joke that you made that was a very kind of the, I, like, I remember that

movie, oh, my God, that's like, that's the kind of joke that I would make because it's like a little bit, like, outrageous. And you're saying something that's, like, about something gross. We don't actually. That's just be attention diffusing kind of thing. Right, right. And it is received so poorly by this group of people that don't appreciate your. humor they're like that's that's a that's their mistake right to not appreciate that right do you see

it that like you don't but this is what i'm saying like this is what's so interesting about how you talk about this which is like these people were assholes to you from the jump they were condescending they were dismissive of you they didn't like you personally they it was a very high school thing i do think that part of it i'm part of it is that you are uh like there's a ways in which that people brought like a kind of stereotype about jews to this i'm sorry but you're but that is present. And, like, I want you to acknowledge that, like, that's something that they were doing,

not something you were doing. No, for sure. I agree that there was, like, I was not entirely to blame for every dynamic I had out there. I can't read their minds about what the, that their motives were. I'm not saying motives, and I'm not, and I'm not implying.

I have no idea what their mentality was. I'm saying that as someone who watched it, what I observed was, you were the Jewish person applying to the Wask Country Club, is what it, like, seemed like. And they were like, He just doesn't fit in. I definitely felt like I didn't fit in.

I mean, that was my first thing I said it was like the 902 on O try when I was one of the zeros on it. And it felt like that was maybe even a deliberate casting thing of like, if you looked at the line of a people, it looked like Melrose Place

and then I'm, you know, some Big Bang Theory or something. It felt like, oh, let's see how this guy functions and this. But maybe that's me giving myself too much credit. Maybe they were not focused on that. But sorry, what was the question?

It's that like, they were bullying you. And for over and over and it was nothing that you did wrong. Well, they kept voting for me. It's hard to say that it wasn't bull. It was just, we didn't, I mean, people say the second time that I was slightly bullish. I made fun of people in some of the interviews, and I feel a certain level of guilt over that. I mean, oh my God, I know, I'm like, incorrigible.

I know it's unbelievable. But so, I'll let it go. No, no, but I'm happy to, like, unpack it with you. Here's the thing that I, like, when I remember watching this, I remember thinking, God, what a sad, what a sad way in which to see Oz. Ozzie was one of the great players, a beloved figure. He's an asshole to you and to, like, he, there's a cockiness and an arrogance and a mean-spiritedness to how you are treated. That is not part of the game.

They could have been very kind to you and voted you off. Like, you were mistreated in a way that is astrategic. And, like, this is a game and all is fair in the game. And my view of it has always been that, like, lying, backstabbing, all of that completely justified and completely moral. But people, and this is, I think, in the years since you played, like, I think there's been an ethical evolution in Survivor, which is people used to bring their outside morals into it. But those outside morals are part of a plus, like a positive sum game where cooperation

leads to a better world. But in this game, cooperate, conflict is only one prize, right? And so you don't have to bring those ethical questions, I think you can put aside and say it's all part of the game. But that is up until someone is inside of the game needlessly cruel or mean-spirited in a way that is not strategic or purposeful or part of the game. I think Russell would do that at times as one of the great villains. But I think in this season, like, there is a hostility and a meanness towards you that just felt gratuitous and almost fun for the people that weren't you. Yeah. I think obviously there's a certain level of self-entitlement.

It was this third time playing. So it's like, why isn't everyone listening to me? Like, of course, I'm going to be the person that everyone defers to. So the fact that I was kind of, anyone that didn't fall into line, I think he was probably, he was not going to be on the greatest terms with. Yeah, I don't know. But I think it's also, that's the dark, I was on season 23 and 26. People now refer to that as the dark ages of the show.

It was like a different mentality. I mean, there's been a big discourse online about villains and whether that's something we want on the show. I think then people more leaned into slightly more conflict and combustible. Because it was what people liked on reality TV, whereas now that's not sustainable with reality, or with social media, quite as much. So I think, I mean, I've met people from the new era. I don't know if they're necessarily all as equally compassionate to each other. I think it's just kind of the show is emphasizing that it's still a game of like, we don't want you here anymore. And even though we've been living together, you're gone.

And that hurts regardless. We're going to hold there for a second. We'll be right back. Hey, don't go anywhere. There's more of Love It or Leave It coming up. Love to Leave It is brought to you by Aura Frames. What's your favorite holiday tradition? Who started it?

How long has it been going? And do you have photos of it? I have a holiday tradition for you. It involved three wise men heading towards Bethlehem. And no, there are no photos. Who started it? A big guy. Yeah.

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This exclusive Black Friday, Cyber Monday deal. is the best of the year. So order now before it ends. Support this show and mention us at checkout. Terms and conditions apply. What's interesting is you flip tribes. You just abandon this team, which was a great decision. It was hard to imagine it working out to you winning once you've done that.

But, like, of course, like, I think this gets out to me why I'm, like, interested in this a little bit. because so they're treating you like dog shit. You flip on them. They are. They're treating you like shit. They're voting for you. You flip on them. They are so angry at you in a way that is not justified, right?

And also not, they're not thoughtful at all about it. They are lashing out at you as if it isn't a game and as if they, as if the way they were treating you didn't happen. That, that to me is what I find so galling about it. Some quotes about whom quotes about what is said about. you after. That's how a wiener plays. You're a piece of shit coward. You're a poor excuse for a man. Don't fucking talk to me ever again. That's Ozzy. Some of those are Jim, I think. Oh, no, this one's Jim. You're a fucking piece of shit nerd. You realize Keith and I saved you three times and this is what you fucking do. You disgust me. You're a rat. No, you

weren't. No, you weren't. You weren't. That is not true. Right? Right. I wasn't a rat. I mean, I think they were just frustrated feeling like their game was over at that point. And, yeah, that was the low point of the entire thing. I was legitimately, like, kind of freaked out. And it was, like, pitch black outside.

So it was just, like, these screaming voices at you in the aftermath of tribal council. And you have to go to bed. You have to, like, lie down on the ground with these people and ostensibly function in this little society again. No, I wasn't a rat. I get a lot of rat. I feel like people, if you're a little scrawny guy, there's certain lingo that I feel like rat I would get a lot online. I still get messages about like ugly rat, coward, poor excuse of a man thing. So those

those things have stuck around. But I think people are discovering that seasons over the pandemic and beyond, so it's always a little batch of people like siding with these bullies. Or they love Ozzy. The sense I get is that it's just like you're watching the show and you want Ozzy to do well. And if this little guy that's not good at the challenges screws him over, then you ruin the season for me. I don't think that's a rational response, but I feel like that's, And I'm actually on okay terms of Ozzy. That's also part of my reluctance with it. Like, I don't have any ill will towards any of these people.

And I just want to say that I'm pushing on that. You're not bringing, I'm, you're not revisiting this. I'm revisiting this because I'm interested in it. You may be on good terms with these people, but this is what took place. That was a super upsetting. That was like, yeah. And I, like, and I'm not, again, I'm not putting this on anyone individually, and I'm not suggesting that I know anyone's motivations.

I just, I, because I consumed a bunch of these mids, these seasons from the middle run of the show at once. And there is something that happens with a certain kind of smart, nerdy player, often a Jewish player, which is that they are scheming. Like, this happens to Penner. Penner is the big one. This happens to a number of Jewish smart players that all of a sudden there's just this, oh, you know, you can't trust him.

You know, they're schemers. Yeah. Kind of a rat. I mean, my whole demeanor might be contributed to that beyond just the fact that my mom is Jewish. I'm like, I'm like a nervous guy that's like hunched over and I don't know. I think I have my, I don't know why I'm turning into this like this is self-d degradation thing, but you're, you know, this is what like, okay. So this is how you, I'm like bringing him up, but this is like interesting to me because I feel like this is part of your, so, so this is, you're, you're even your, you're, you're closing in, you're kind of, now you're back to now we're in the mentality of season 23. You're apologizing for apologizing for apologizing, okay?

Then you come back, right? Right, right. You do get destroyed by the sun within minutes of arriving on the beach, which I think is a nadier in that season for you. Because you then go on one of the best runs in Survivor ever. You dominated that season. It's a perfect season, right? You didn't receive a single vote.

Is that right? Yeah, one of two people. That's right. So what changed? Well, it was only the next summer. So it wasn't as though, like, even though it was three seasons apart, it was literally a few months after the season stopped filming. So I didn't undergo, like, a huge personal transformation

or certainly physical transformation. The big thing is, like, the people you get put with, I mean, that determines really everything. Yeah. And it's not the most glamorous answer, but, like, there's a lot of variability in how you perform based on what group you're put with. I also think going back, there's a huge different mentality shift.

I was so nervous the first time, just like, it's very vulnerable. I was just a student that had very little exposure to any outdoorsy stuff or socialize. And then suddenly there's a camera crew and there's a Miss America runner up in a retired cop and you're in a bamboo shelter together. And it was just like very overwhelming. Whereas the second time, a lot of that luster kind of is gone. You're more just like, I want to win. I didn't just want to be a big character. I was like, I want to play the game that I loved a long time.

And then just the people are more receptive to me. I had several people from my first season on there. And then just like it's a survivor social circle. I met, you know, Andrea, it was somebody that I was friendly with. But it was also nice, just a mix of people, I think, was better. Like, that first time just felt like a very homogenous tribe that I was put in. And I was kind of wanted a group of misfits that I can kind of blend in and out. And I liked that it's a big tribe.

It was 10 people. I know you had a six-person tribe. I don't, I need the big tribe to be able to kind of, like, have some hiding room. I feel like you and I had a similar early experience. Like, you were able to survive early because it's bigger tribes. And I, like, there was just nowhere for me to go. And I, like, I don't, my group was not hostile at all. But they were.

I was very different from my group and there was just very little space, especially once there had been sort of the kind of, especially once there had been the kind of like crazy moment and the breakdown and sort of the things sort of, I sort of lost control very quickly. But I did feel the same kind of feeling of like, I don't know, there's something about being an anxious, smart person that once the, once the, once the, once the, once the, once the, Once the avalanche starts, you know, you're kind of, you're just sort of a passenger of like being unable to kind of contain it and kind of do breezy. You don't do, like, it's hard to, once you feel, I feel like that's, I think, something that

we have in common because I think once you felt like you were losing them, you go into a kind of spiraling, yeah, it's interesting. So you think the difference between the first season, the season which you were kind of maligned and called a rat and disgusting, and the season where. you won, the main difference, given that it was only a summer later, has nothing to do with you, that it was the mix of people. And an attitude shift. I mean, I was definitely, I think it hardens you.

Like, being on these shows, you get a lot of, I was very nervous the first time about how people are going to respond to me, just being, making fun of what I look like or what I sound like. And you get so, it's like a focus group testing on who you are as a person running on these shows. You get tons of feedback, you have to figure out which ones to incorporate and which ones to ignore. But it does kind of give you thicker skin. So I think the second time, I was slightly, had a little bit of a shield of armor. and a hell of a little bit more confidence, just like not, the uncertainty is the scariest part.

I feel like the first time when you're flying out there and you don't know who you're going to be with, you go through the casting process for the returning player seasons, you see who's going to be there, so it's already a slightly more comfortable thing. But yeah, I don't know.

I mean, I did better in challenges, for instance, the second time, which like... Yeah, you did. But I think that was just a comfort level thing as opposed to, like, I didn't practice balancing or lifting things. I mean, I wanted gross food eating challenge and stuff, but it was more about just being calm

with the circumstances. I wish I had a better like transformation explanation, but I think it was more the people and being open to meeting them. I think the first time I was also kind of like trying to shoehorn my strategies into other people's polls, whereas it's like you have to find common ground and maybe, you know, give it a little bit if you want to get something. Yeah, I feel like, now you were a super fan at a time when that really wasn't part of the show. Like you were on with people that were just doing it.

and figuring out as they went, but you had come with a lot of plans, but you really never got to put them into fruition at all. It wasn't like you tried your various ideas of what survivor could be. You, like, kind of, you took your first punch, and then that was out the window. You were just trying to hang on. And then very quickly, I was like the alter, once you become the other option for who to vote off at every tribal council, it's hard to kind of, like, cement yourself as a serious strategic source of information, because it's just like, oh, we'll say, we'll tell so-and-so

that we're voting for you, but it's actually going to be so-and-so. But you never do that to the person that you actually, like, respect their play. in the game because if that person plays an idol, then the person that they're saying, I don't know, it just, it was an insecure mind frame I was in the whole time. So yeah, it wasn't, there's never anything I was like, here's what we're doing next tribal council. I give you the idol, you vote for so and so and magic's going to have and watch the fireworks. It was like, just me going like, it's not going to be me this right, right, please don't vote for me. Like, don't vote for me. Which when I got home, it was, I mean, it was a little bit of a, I took a semester off

from law school because I was like very nervous about watching that show. I was kind of dreading how I was going to come across. And how to feel watching it? I don't like watching it. Like, the fun part is being on it. Like, even the misery, it's the deprivation you're signing up for and the testing your limits. Afterwards, it's no longer your story. And it's, even though I love all the production, they do it very faithfully and accurately. But it's just like hearing your voice on an answering machine.

But it's like way worse because, you know, 10 million people are hearing that voice in the answering machine. And they can say what they think about you. And it's also, you're having bathed in a month. And you're wearing a little outfit that they told you to wear with a red sweater vest and a pink button-down shirt. It's like everything was just, I didn't really do viewing parties that season because I was like, this is just going to be a source of stress more than anything. I would feel sick on Wednesday nights and then would stay up all night just reading every single con. The next day I would just be reading every single comment on every website. I felt, I really wasn't thinking about what it would be like to air when I went, which I think this is the right thing to do.

I was just thinking about, and I had the same, like having watched a lot of reality television of all kinds, my general feeling is that there is an ethic to how Survivor is made that actually doesn't. and apply to basically any other reality show. And so I was very comfortable kind of pushing my chips forward and letting the edit fall where it may. I'm just sort of trusting the ledger of it to be fair. But then I remember the dread, well, first of all, of course, because I knew I was going to be voted out, but the dread of watching it,

I was like, you know what, given how nervous this feeling is, I would rather have gone home first than third, fourth, or fifth, though, of course, I would have rather gone home much later to. Do you think I should do it again? Do you think that I, look, you and I, you made it further in your, your first out, first season through, but I think the thrust of the experience, you, like, I think that your first season confirmed some of your fears about how you would be received.

Oh, 100%. And I, and I feel like that isn't exactly true for me other than just going home first, which is an interesting worst case scenario. But I feel like I never really got, like I never really got purchased. Like, I told Jeff when I met Jeff, I'm either going to go home. I'm going to make it all the way or I'm going to go home first. And I just sort of caught the bad steer. But do you think I should do it again?

Do you want to do it again? I don't know. What do you think? Do you think I should do it again? I think it's something you don't want to do it. It's going to end up being a negative experience because it's like such an intense thing. But if you want to do it, also, you have only upside. It's going to go better this next time.

But I do what you're, I don't know. Well, but there's, you know, there's Francesca. No, no, and I was unfortunately part of that. I'm not proud of that. what was that like by the way oh god this is like dredging of all these painful memories um painful

no that one's like not a fun one because I was a kind of I was friendly with her that uh there uh was a I thought this woman Jane was going to be out there from Nicaragua

and it ended up being Dawn was who ended up being my closest ally I thought we were going to vote of Jane first because I was like oh I don't think I don't know if people know or I don't know that ended up being Dawn out there

who was my closest ally and the vote ended up coming down to Francesca versus Andrea who looked at the tubula was actually friendly with, it was kind of the worst case scenario for a first vote out for me. But I was closer with Andrea, and I don't know. I think they had this built intention between Philip and Francesco, which they, you know,

that was probably what they were hoping for, some sort of, not just exactly what happened, just some kind of rekindling that feud. But that was not fun. It's not, like, it's not fun. It's like a painful game where, like, it's a fun TV show. When you're out there, you feel a lot of guilt because you realize, oh, I'm going to see this person afterwards, and we're going to be talking, and we have mutual friends, and that's that's the that's the that's the that's part of the reason I don't go back because it's like you heard a lot of people's feelings and um you can't control how you come across and I don't know it's I feel I feel guilty about I'm like even though things turned out well and I won that doesn't say it isn't accompanied by some like little elements of a I wish things had been different or but uh yeah we're going to take a quick break we'll be right back hey don't go anywhere there's more of love it or leave it is brought to you by prolon are you considering changing

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or bonus gift when you subscribe to their five-day program, just visit prolonlife.com slash love it. That's P-R-O-L-O-N-L-I-F-E dot com slash love it to claim your 15% discount and your bonus gift, prolonlife.com slash love it. What's interesting is you were a person who understood and really had paid attention to Survivor. You're, I think, one of, if not the first player to kind of really bringing that kind of fan energy, now that's a big part of what Survivor has become. And actually, it's the evolution, a lot of reality shows have now gone. And this is true of competition shows that, and it's also true of Real Housewives,

that the first couple seasons, these are people trying to be themselves or play the game, whatever that means. And then as you get further along, people come on the show, having become fan, ends of the show and that changes the show. And I'm curious what that's been like for you to watch as more and more people come to it with a similar knowledge that you had. I think it's fun to watch. Just even having met the most recent cast, I feel like I get along with the more. It's like, oh, this is like everyone's very nice and compassionate and smart. I mean, I understand there's some frustration like, well, we want more, you know, people that don't know the games. There's a mix of people

that are inept versus strong players. But I think that if you got that in reality, it might be I watch a lot of Big Brother, too, and there are frequently people on Big Brother that have no idea what's going on. It's a greater source of frustration than entertainment to watch on the show. So I kind of like having a lot of people that know what's going on. The game's gotten so much more complex now that I feel like you almost kind of have to have people that are able to roll with the punches and do the different twists and everything. But I enjoy it. I mean, the shows had to evolve. I rewatch some of the early, I watched Marquesis over the pandemic.

And it was a super fun season, but I don't think of it aired now that it would capture the viewers in the same way. Yeah, there are a lot of people that are critical. of the new seasons of Survivor because of all the kind of the more complex rules around idols and challenges and and immunity. But they are kind of will, they're kind of forgetting

that some of the early seasons of Survivor, they were quite boring because a lot of it was foregone. They were trying to generate trauma, but there was foregone conclusions. I mean, there were seasons like before idols. I mean, it was just sort of like, and just you're just sort of,

it's more about the survival and the social dynamic, but often that was predictable. And so this does add a level of kind of intrigue and complexity and change that I do think is good for the game. But then I do think it's harder for players. Like I think I'm constitutionally more kind of suited to a slower version of the game. No, I feel the 20, I'm curious what you felt. But like the 39 days set up, the one big difference I would feel like is we'd have these off days where nothing.

happens. Like usually the busy days you have a challenge or maybe you have a tribal council and you have to be transported there and you have to wait around a little bit and there's lots of activity and it feels like going on a field trip. But the days we have nothing going on and you don't even get told nothing's going on. You're kind of like waiting to find out. Maybe we're going to get tree mail. Maybe this is an exciting day.

And then gradually the realization sets in like, oh, no, I'm just stuck with these people sitting around and not eating for another 24 hours. Those days actually, if there's anything I was good at Survivor, I think I was actually probably good at those days because it's like I wasn't getting into fights and I was kind of an easy, low-key presence that if other people, you know, that if other people, but we're having tension, they might decompress with me afterwards. I don't operate well in the high activity is, or it's like, hey, grab you in the woods, so this is what we're going to do.

Like that, I kind of go into my shell. And that couple with the smaller tribes, I feel like I would struggle, I would have a harder time with the new setup. That's not to say I don't like it, but it's definitely a different game. The small tribes in particular, imagine if you had three or four other people on your tribe. It would have been like a completely different experience. Well, it was also, I think the, the, with six, there's only so many combinations.

And once it was two, two, two, you very quickly run out of room to operate. My only, yeah, I mean, just there was no, because, you know, as you know, like right before tribal council, there's a ton of machinations and talking and groups forming and they can't show all that. But man, I was hustling to try to put something together. My only regret of the whole thing is because I was doing the math in my head before the vote, which is I was like, I think I got like a, I thought my chances of making it out of the vote were roughly the same as the chances of rolling a die. Like I thought it was like roughly the same and I thought, all right, should I just say fuck it and do the shot in the dark? But then I really had like, well, if I spend this vote on the shot in the dark and that's what sends me home, it's sort of tough, it was a tough call.

I can understand the first tribal not wanting to use the shot in the dark. But I do like that twist. That's obviously one of the new era twist that I do like as a little escape hatch and creates some uncertainty. You can't tell people that you're going to... Yes. It forces blind sides.

Yes. I think it's much rougher for the player mentality, but I think it's probably ultimately good for the game. So one thing that's also happened is Survivor has moved away from the villains. It's just, it's... And it's interesting to say it, because I do think, like, having now spent time with a lot of the new era players myself,

it does feel a lot of, like, front of the classroom kids and survivor used to be a lot more about the back of the classroom kids versus the front of the classroom kids and you happen to be on a tribe with five back of the classroom kids which really screwed you but uh there's not the same amount of like bullying and harshness but what's interesting about that is as survivor i think has become socially gentler and physically more kind of aggressive like our culture has become like kind of overrun by bullies it feels as though you're you know in your season like it feels as though your tribe ultimately wins in the culture fight and i'm like wondering if like just sort of in a politics dominated by bullying

if you've like thought about how like your experience with survivor what you what you notice about in the commonalities with with with how bullying plays out in politics oh that's interesting um i mean a thing that's interesting with the like the villain aspect of everything is So there used to be, like, explicit villains. They'd be burning socks or throwing out your food or saying really cruel things. But even though the show's now shifted, I think Jeff's even said, look, we're kind of steering away from casting villains. It's not our priority anymore.

Because of the cultural bullying and stuff, the public will identify a villain. They will create one. In the absence of an explicit one, they'll find a person that is, they don't like their voice enough, or I watch Jeopardy a lot. People are cruel to like how contestants hold the buzzers. Like, they'll find anything that they don't like, and that's enough of a justification for that to be the person that they hate. Even this current season, I've seen people say, like,

how these people are mean, it's like, if you watched reality TV from 20 years ago, this would not even be a blip on the, like, radar of bad behavior. But it's actually kind of full circle. But, like, season two, it's kind of going full circle with, like, Jerry Manthy. She's the original villainous of all time. But you look at her sins, that she criticized how Rice was made and not got her boot off the stage of Madison Square Garden and made fun of an scary movie franchise.

It's insane. It's actually, like, it's a good, like, um, If you go back and watch those seasons and the way that they were received, it actually speaks to how much the culture has shifted. You can't watch it through early 2000's eyes because 20 years ago there were such a hostility towards a woman like Jerry that like inside of the show, the edit presumes the audience is seeing what that like, can you believe this bitch? And it's like, she didn't do anything. She didn't do anything. She's the sweetest, if you remember, she's like so unbelievably kind and sweet. the fact that she was the person that was, like, picked out as the first villain of reality TV.

And it's even kind of like with Parvety. Like, I feel like her reputation's, like, in the old day, she was really torn apart. And you can see there's been a shift in the conversation about it. And now that's actually a celebrated personality instead of, like, we hate a strong woman that's strategizing. Yeah, well, like, like, I mean, we talked to that. I talked to Parvety about that. And, you know, she kind of ultimately embraces this kind of villain archetype that she's meant to be playing. And she just continues doing it.

it becomes beloved. But so there's the ways in which people that weren't villains were treated as such because they were just being tough and not, I don't know, handsome guys, basically. But then at the same time, you have the ways in which reality TV villains, politicians have learned from reality TV villains and now bring that energy to politics. And I'm just wondering if when you watch some of the ways

in which, you know, Trump bullies people, the ways in which in Congress you have these sort of brawls and committee hearings, if it doesn't feel a little bit like they're playing kind of, I don't know, old school survivor. A thing that Yul Kwan, the survivor winner from Cook Islands, I was a legal intern a million years ago at the FCC. And before I went on Survivor, I talked to him about what I should be expecting. And one thing he talked about as a piece of advice was like, there are going to be times when you might be in an alliance.

That ended up not even happening the first time. But he's like, you might be in an alliance, and you're going to be a group of people sitting over here, and there's going to be another alliance sitting, like, 15 feet away. He's like, allow yourself to be the guy that's capable of going back and forth between the groups. Like, communicate with the other, because there's a tendency, and I experienced it and I participated in it. You'd literally be sitting 15 feet away, but, like, you'd be assuming the worst about that other group. Even though I'm sure their conversation actually probably wasn't that different from yours, you're probably talking about what food you miss from home.

Just because you were assigned different color buffs on day one, it's like, oh, I hate that person. and I don't want them out of here. I don't want to see their face. But Ewell's like, you know, given the unpredictability's of the game, I'm kind of paraphrasing what I said, but given the unpredictability of the game, there might be a time when swaps around, and the person you're sitting 15 feet away from

might be able to be your ally. You might have to play an idol with them. You might have to coordinate a vote with them. So let's just say that the bullying of like the other eyes and I think is something that I've noticed. It's just like the lack of communication makes it very easy to project the most monstrous version of your opponent onto them.

And then that's what you're responding to. and then any sort of discourse is impossible so that then you can just flip try that it's just like that's when you have a very non-fluid season of survivor i feel like that's the old era it's like uh blue states and red blue buffs and red buffs it's no there's no intermingling um whereas now it's you know voting blocks and if there's a shuffle and um i think that's a healthy thing but i guess i kind of didn't completely answer your question about villains but just though i think one of the thing is just not the idea of the team sportification of politics is like created a villains because you want to root against somebody even though it's not what we're you know why is that what we're doing yeah there's also i think there's uh i think your instinct when people were kind of isolating you um is to be self deprecating right almost to like if someone throws a punch it you kind of like grab the fist and kind of pull it in and that didn't seem to work and i'm wondering like In between your two seasons, like, did you find yourself trying to avoid doing the self-deprecating thing because it just doesn't work or what? Well, it's a compulsion.

Like, it's not me being like this will be an endearing thing right now. If I, like, say something embarrassing and make a spectacle of how bad I am at something, that's just like a lifelong if you get bullied and you want to, you know, make fun of yourself before anybody else has a chance to say the thing. And I'm way better at it than you are, so just listen to me. But I definitely, the second time, there was it, it's also just like an attention. It's like, nobody wants somebody talking about that. Everyone's like the star of the season out there. Everyone wants to be, this is their story, I'm going to be getting all the great confessional.

So when you have one guy that's like, oh, look at me, I can't open a Coke? And can somebody help me with a suntan lotion? It's like, all right, we're all out here. Why are you prioritizing? We're all uncomfortable. We're all feeling discomfort. And yeah, just prioritizing other people.

I mean, because that's like, you're still, I was still uncomfortable and I was still freaked out, but just not, I would save it for the confessionals, honestly. Like, that's kind of the therapy session that you get. where you don't have to, we can be super vulnerable. And there isn't that subtext of deception or trying to woo people

like there is whenever you're around camp. So that's when I would, you know, really, if I were being self-deprecating. But it wasn't a deliberate thing. It's like, it's honestly, even during this interview, like when I do it, I'm not like, oh, this is going to be a little funny thing

or something that's going to make people. It's like, no, I'll listen back to this and I'll be mortified, I'm sure. It's so exciting to me. It is just, honestly, it is so rare to me to be in a conversation where someone is more, more this way than I am.

Like, it's actually, like, I'm just sitting here like, I mean, this is extraordinary. Like, this is the thing. It's just like to see someone take what I do to its logical conclusion. It's so exciting. It is charming. That's why, I mean, you did win your season because you have charisma. You have charm, right? You know that.

Can you compliment yourself ever? Yeah. Well, I don't think it was because of self-deprecating stuff. No, I know. I'm saying it was because of the good qualities you don't, you don't do. I don't know what the opposite of self-debragging, I suppose. You don't brag about it. Like, you're a very smart, charming, funny person.

Thank you. Like, I don't seek out social stuff, but I get along with people pretty well. That was kind of why I applied for the show. Like, I don't, like, I'm kind of a shut-in. Like, I almost never hang out with people. But even in school, I'd always be able to, like, get along with people from different social groups, like the jocks or the Valley Girl. I don't know it wasn't ballet girls, but, you know, or the nerds. So even though it wasn't their favorite person, you don't have to be anyone's favorite person, just like somebody that they like getting along with.

Usually vote off the favorite person because they're a threat to win. So it's kind of being like an even-keeled person. that isn't a source of drama. I thought I did a good job at Final Tribal Council. That's the one thing where, like, I do pat myself on the back. You crush, yeah.

So I had a lot of pressure. I put pressure on myself because of law school and stuff. But, I don't know. What was the question? Just, how did I transfer? I don't remember what the question was. Yeah, saying that I was better the second time.

Thank you. But then I'm just, do you notice Survivor, when you watch the ways in which politics has become a lot more personality-driven, and there is a lot more kind of survivor-like qualities to the way people treat politics now. I'm wondering if you ever watching a debate, a campaign,

and think, man, this reminds me of what it was like when I was on Survivor. I mean, you can't help watch the big primaries with all the people trying to vie for votes, and the gradual elimination. It's very reality TV coded. And the best presidential debates are like the best final tribal councils. And I listen to the podcast with poverty and she comment on like authenticity, I think, being one of the core.

I think that's consistent across reality TV and politics. The people that at least are able to put on the illusion of authenticity will be a lot more effective than people that don't. And self-awareness, knowing your strengths and weaknesses. And the question was when I see politics, gosh, I mean, The fact that our presence is a reality TV for another Mark Burnett acolyte. It's like it's inescapable. His whole dialogue of good guys and bad guys and shut up and I don't want to talk. It's, it's inescapable.

I don't know. I don't know if it's a good thing, honestly. I think it's a terrible thing. Yeah. It's a very reductive thing. Like in everyday life, there aren't villains and heroes. Those are labels that reality TV puts on them, but those labels have kind of crossed out into politics and flattened people into these identities, He's just like a reality TV, it can kind of make you be like,

oh, I'm just the nerd that's a self-type-pricating stuff. Yeah, I don't know. It's a bleak thing. I definitely do watch, uh, with Eul Kwan, I asked him whether he would consider Paul. Because he was watching him, I always thought like, oh, he's a smart guy. He'd worked for Senator Lieberman, and he worked for Google and McKinsey, and has this incredible background, Yale and Stanford. But he said that he wouldn't, he said he wouldn't be able to,

his personality type isn't good for governing or, or no, he'd be good at governing, but not campaigning. But just like, it's a completely different. I think so maybe the reality TV skill set is better for campaigning. Yeah, maybe so. This is the TV show aspect of, but I don't know. It's interesting because Yule is one of the greatest players and similar, I think similar to you in a sense of being like strategic, very intelligent. But I wonder if you feel this too, that there was a kind of,

self-discipline around his own emotions that I think is sort of not something either of us could replicate? Oh, no. I mean, I saw myself in certain aspects of him that he was like a bookish guy that clearly took this game very seriously, but no, he is like cool as a cucumber and can be very clinical with how he deals with game stuff, whereas I'm an emotional, anxious mess. And if he is, he doesn't betray it at least outwardly. And I think it's interesting. It's like a, I think it actually cut against him the second time. The first time, I think it helped. And the second time, I think there was more like emotional bonding over, you know, families at edge of extinction. And he less got into that. So, yeah, I just say I agree with you,

I think. Yeah. You should talk to him. He's just, I mean, he's, I should talk to you all. I would like to talk to you. He's very smart. We're going to take a quick break. We'll be right back. Hey, don't go anywhere. There's more of love it or leave it coming up. Love it or leave it brought to by blinds.com. You spent all that effort making your home feel like a winter wonderland from stringing lights to decorating every corner and setting the perfect vibe. But if those old blinds are throwing it all off, it may be time to do something about them. With blinds.com, you can upgrade your window treatments and pull the whole look together before the holidays hit full swing. Blinds.com called out the window treatment industry.

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Just use code love it at checkout, limited time offer. Rules and Restrictions apply. Seeblins.com for details. Now, you still are getting, because the seasons have been rediscovered, you're still getting feedback on your two seasons, like on some. social media all the time. I mean, multiple times a week. I don't want to make it sound like I'm constantly being flooded with stuff, but it's like

every time I'll check that little hidden Instagram section, like the hidden DMs, it's like never a good thing. Yeah, don't go in there. And I got one recently. Actually, I don't want to give voice to the DMs because then they'll be like, oh, he read the specific one. It was a wounded by it. Don't feed the trolls.

They got you. They got you. There's some very specific ones. I mean, some of the generic ones that are like, you're an ugly coward idea to that to Ozzie or it's a rigged season, hate you, whichever. I've heard that so many times. But certain one, this sounds like somebody that knows me. That was over me.

Let's get at that for a second. Because it is like the criticism that you agree with that hit, or like you can, you, that, that's, that feels like something you'd say to yourself that, like, hits the hardest. And I'm curious, like, when you get, like, when you think about your experience on Survivor, like, what is the self-criticism that still gets to you? Oh, so many things. I mean, like, tons of things. I don't like that. I, like, I feel like I, especially the second time, like, the way you. describing the bullies the first time. In a small way, I feel like, did I turn into a bully the

second time with when I was kind of mocking people in interviews? Part of that was like, it's a conversation with producers, you're trying to make them laugh. And it's like a... And that's where you vent. That's where I... Yeah. And that's also like, I figure that's where I'm getting put on the show for. Like, I'm not doing anything during challenges. That's particularly impressive. I'm not causing any blowups at camp. It's like, no, that's just where I clock in and I say my wacky things and I go back to camp and do nothing. But, so I felt guilt about that, just because I know, that's also my reluctance about commenting about, like, other players online, because I know how unpleasant it is to be on the show.

And so to contribute to use whatever little platform I have to, like, add on to that and be like, oh, I hate this person, or I'm not enjoying, or even just saying I'm glad this person survived implies that you were happy the other person got voted off. I get so in my head about that. So when I replay stuff, I said on the show about being happy for voting somebody off or making fun of them, I feel, because I just know that they're watching that episode with their family. Like, it's easy when you're saying it on the island. It's like, okay, whatever, caught in this moment. But then you wait a year, and it's like, oh, you guys. They're maybe doing a viewing party. And I was kind of a guy that was like a trustworthy narrator.

So if I'm making fun of you, it's kind of the endorsement of the show saying it. You're in the voice of the show. Yeah. So I feel guilt about that. I mean, I don't like what I look like. I mean, this is just a general embarrassment of like appearance and demeanor. But it's just mainly the stuff saying about other people. I'm fine making fun of myself.

I do that all the time. And I make fun of other people too. But I don't want it to be, you know, I don't want it to be a public record that then identifies their experience. And then, like, they feel bad for a long time. Not saying that they feel bad, but this is the sort of thing that I worry about. But, yeah, the other Chris, like, the chrins are that there's a rigged season and stuff, I don't really care. A lot of the criticisms about my gameplay, I don't really care about, saying, like, I'm not a good winner. I'm a bottom-tier winner in a bad season that nobody should watch.

I don't know. I'm at peace with that. You've said you don't want to do it again. You're kind of out. But, like, in having the two different experiences you've had on Survivor and the two different ways it was received. Like, what did it teach you about what? the audience appreciates or doesn't appreciate about competition. Like, what did it show you about the way America views what happens when someone like you

either does poorly or does well? Well, it spoke to, like, the different values that people bring to the show when they're watching. I mean, even when you meet people, some people watch just for the challenges. Like, and they fast forward through everything else, which is on. fathomable to me. But so, like, so if you prioritize that and you see me the first season and I'm the reason we're losing challenges and I'm on a tribe with Ozzie, a lot of those people hate me and they'd come out to me like, oh, he loved you the second time.

He started winning all these challenges, but like, that's not even a thing I care about. That's not a, I mean, it's a fun thing. It was a fun thing to win challenges, but that's not my value system. I think a big thing, I mean, part of you touched on it, but I just think authenticity and vulnerability is like what people are looking for. You don't, you want, when things are going bad on the show, be vulnerable. Don't be saying, oh, I'm going to figure this out.

This is going to be great. I got it all covered. They want honesty. And if you're messing up, then being able to course correct is kind of like a thing that's, I don't know, people don't like the seasons where you just get locked into one thing. I don't know. The motives and incentives for the viewers are different from the players. Like the viewers won an exciting season of lots of blind sides and idols being played and people whispering during tribal council, which is not necessarily what makes for the most stable game. I don't know.

I feel like I'm not giving a good answer to this one. I'm freaking out. And then a spiral over this, text my mom afterwards. Oh, no, do that. Okay. She wants to have the link to this when I'm done, though. Okay. We will get this episode to your mother.

Okay. What did I learn about what the viewers like out of this? I don't know. Viewers like different things. Some people hate me. Some people like me. Some people, they prioritize the people. Like, a lot of people love Boston Robb, who insists on a buddy system.

It doesn't let you talk to people and tells you how to vote. That's not how I operate. It's just nice seeing how it's interesting how people latch on to different aspects of it. I don't know. There was a big split in how people reacted to me the second time, which is kind of almost like makes you a little cynical because I don't feel like I'd change that that much. But like, I want a gross food eating challenge and now I'm deserving of respect. I don't know. It's like, well, it's people want.

It's complicated, right? Because with Boston Rob, it's a little bit like he's a bully you root for. Yeah, he's a charming guy and charismatic. And people like a bully that they can root for, which is not, which does apply in politics, right? That somebody who is dominating but also can get people behind them. It's like a very powerful thing. For you, in your season, you're an underdog people can root for. But yet, you're dominating the whole way through.

So were you ever actually an underdog or is that just your energy? Do you have underdog energy? I know, I've done a perpetual underdog energy. I mean, like, just very structurally, I was on the favorites tribe the second time with a big numbers advantage. going into the merge. I think just because I'm a scrawny guy that's wearing a funny little too big for me buttoned down shirt

and khakis and stuff, it like oozes like, oh, he's, this is hard for it. I don't know, not good at the challenges, like just anything physical. But you won't challenge your season. You did. I want three challenges, three challenges. But physically, you want a physical one.

Yeah, but I also had like advantage. There's a little asterisk believe. I get reminded enough and none of these things are legitimate. So in your season, it was two returning players, Ozzie and coach, who were kind of the captains of their team. Ozzie, we talked about,

Coach kind of created this oddly kind of spiritual, religious tribes. Really, what a weird fucking season that was. But they're both coming back for 50. And I wonder if you have thoughts about that. Like, what, what do you expect from an Aussie and a coach this many years on? That's maybe the dynamic I'm because I played with them. That's maybe the dynamic I'm most excited about it. Because I don't know if they like each other, or at least historically they didn't.

I feel like this is also old. in history. Maybe they've completely moved on. But I feel like at the time it was coach slightly felt like Ozzy was responsible for coach not winning Final Tribal Council because Ozzy kind of came into Ponderosa and was like, don't vote for coach, he's a bad guy and everything. So there's this lingering ill will towards them.

There were two returning players. I think that also kind of added to the competitive thing like I did better than I did. So I'll be curious to see whether there's any lingering resentment or whether, you know, the fact that they know each other that theoretically could be a reason to get together. They're part of the same I don't know if they're the same age range exactly, but their same air of the show.

And I don't know. I mean, Ozzie, the thing is, I'll be curious whether there's a new incarnation of him. I feel like that first version of him was so wonderful. And then, I don't know, I don't know. I'm talking bad about it. I'm already, like, self-editing and, like, freaking out about what I'm saying. Can I take a shot at it?

He was the golden boy of Survivor, this incredibly beloved figure. And he tarnished that by being a fucking asshole. and maybe this is his chance to kind of, because he never wins, right? He never wins. No, that first time was the closest, like, even the time I was on,

he got very close to his final four, but that first time against Yule was like such a good, it was the ultimate strength performer versus the ultimate strategist. And it was like a four three vote, or it was a very, very close vote, I think, which almost never happens now. But he would have won South Pacific

had he won the final immunity challenge. That's the thing, the whole thing was set up for him to eat. Like he had such a redemption island. The whole thing was so structured for it. And it didn't happen for him. So I feel like this is his, chance, but I do think, like, I wonder, you know, you can, you can, um, downplay it all you

want and blame yourself. But I feel like, uh, there's got to be a residue from the kind of haughtiness that he brought to the season with you that he'd want to come back. I thought I was saying hot. No, no, I wasn't saying that. I wasn't saying. I could. I could. So as a, as somebody who was a super fan of Survivor's, kind of a student of the game, kind of last question, How do you think about the way Survivor has changed as sort of our pop culture has changed since you and I both watched the first season live in 2000, not together, we're strangers, but still.

Yeah, spiritually watch it together. I feel like, I mean, at the very beginning, it was like the wild west of television. I remember they're being ambiguity about other people were going to die on the show. The way they were promoting it's like, we're going to take 16 Americans, one by one. They're not going to get any food,

and there's going to be one person left, and then they win. It seemed like Lord of the Flies. And they were really leaning into the, like torture aspect of it. I mean, it was kind of also around the same time as fear factor. It's like more eating bugs and seeing bug bites and people really struggling and burning themselves.

And then there's been, I don't know, it's funny. I feel like when society is more, this is speaking of big brushstrokes, but like when there's society is more compassionate, the reality TV is a little bit more sinister and then vice versa. I feel like right now, like with the political climate and the culture and conversation so toxic that it's almost kind of like survivor. It's not true of all reality shows, certainly, but like, so I was kind of doing a public service

of like, let's give you a little bit of a sanctuary from this dialogue, even though it is still a game of deception and betrayal and paranoia and voting and everything, but I feel like now there's just been an emphasis on more compassion and even just humanizing the contestants. Like, some people don't like the little flashbacks where they go to a thing and say,

oh, I grew up and this is what my parents were doing and everything. But it is nice to note. It reminds you that, like, especially in the age of social media where people are so inclined to just dehumanize you and send me the most hateful stuff, it is a nice reminder like, oh, this is a person that's going home to their life and family when this is over. But I feel like maybe when, because we get so much, if you turn on CNN, you're getting the most, you're getting the 2000 version of reality TV of all the people with the wounds and the bug bites. And so it's kind of like, we don't need that anymore. Maybe if it swings back, we'll be craven, you know, more hunger game style reality TV. but I feel like, oh, there's House of Villains, though. There are shows that lean into villain stuff. Do you feel like there's been an overall, like, change in the tone of reality TV?

I'm so focused on Survivor that I'm slightly less aware of, like, what Real Housewives is doing. I think on Survivor, I think a lot of reality shows reflect the culture. I think that Survivor, you're right now, feels like something of an antidote or kind of contrary version of culture. And I think you're right, it has become socially gentler, but there's also something about the way in which Jeff, as someone who just believes in earnest striving and unironic hard work, right? And I do think, like, yes, there's a way in which toxic politics leads people to want a more wholesome experience, but also ironic culture and the ways in which everything is mediated and even hard work itself is sort of to, that there's still this kind of place where that's how you do it on Survivor. Like at the end of the day, whatever is happening,

like striving and fighting, like unironically, kind of even if even to the point of sapping your own dignity is like still of value. And I think that like, I think people are, it's both a respite from the toxic political culture, but also a place where people can kind of sing into some un-ironic, earnest, like, kind of competition for its own thing. No, that's a great call.

I've never even considered that, but you're right. People make fun of proaps, like, sincerity in those moments, but I actually think that is a nice, I don't like one. Every so often there's one contestant that seems a little too cool for school or ironic about it. I never like it. That's not what survivors for it. It is about, like, stripping you down to your essentials and the vulnerability and the

authenticity. And I think, yeah, I think that's, you don't get that in anything else. That's why I was trying to reality TV in the first place. So that's actually kind of why I'm lessened to, like, traitors and stuff, because I feel like it becomes a career reality TV person that's curated this persona, and it's no longer, it's kind of an actor at that point, not saying they're acting, but, like, I still have game shows just because I like seeing the fleeting real interactions of, like, the couples on newlywed game or on family feed, the tension between the families,

and imagine what the car ride home is like, or in Jeopardy, just like the interviews with Alex Trebek was always funny to me. And I feel like Survivor took that and expanded out to this extreme, you know, hour-long adventure. And that's what I'm craving. Yeah, the lack of iron. I never thought of it. That's really cool. No, I think that's right.

It is sort of like a hunger for sincerity. Yeah. So maybe the goal here is to get to a point where Survivor is a brutal and mean-spirited slog again in which sweet, smart Jewish nerves are kind of destroyed before us because that would mean our politics had gotten wholesome. And that's a beautiful place to leave it. I love that. John Cochran, thank you so much. It was so great. Good talking to you.

My pleasure. Thank you. Thank you. or rip us a new one, please drop us a review. Finally, if you want to listen to Love It or Leave It, ad free and get access to exclusive shows, go to crooked.com slash friends to subscribe on Supercast, substack, YouTube,

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