Lovett or Leave It - Shooting Star of Stupid

Episode Date: April 20, 2018

Propaganda is everywhere, from Sinclair stations to industry-funded research, from Trump tweets to the stories we tell about ourselves on Facebook and Instagram. Recorded live from Minneapolis in the midst of an historic April blizzard, Jon is joined by Professor Joanne Miller, St. Paul Mayor Melvin Carter III, health care expert Andy Slavitt, and friend of the pod Erin Ryan for a special show devoted to misinformation, propaganda, and how we can fight for the truth in the age of Trump. Special thanks to everybody who came out to this show. Minnesotans don't mess around.

How is it even possible that you people got here. Minneapolis. Minneapolis. Welcome to Snowchella. Seriously. What is wrong with you people? Unbelievable. It is crazy out there.

I saw a bear eat Leonardo DiCaprio. I saw the dead rise from the grave and attack Hart Holm or where somebody knows. Hart Home? Good, good, good, good, good. Don't want any mistakes tonight. You guys know it's spring, right?

What the fuck? Hi, I'm Minneapolis. Mid-April. I'll be fine. Yeah, I guess climate change probably is part of it. You people blame that on everything. Climate change. That's why it's cold.

That's why it's hot. Get your story straight. Love It or Leave It is going on tour. Pittsburgh, Thursday, May 3rd. Columbus, Friday Friday May 4th Baltimore Saturday May 5th Crooked.com End of housekeeping

Look tonight We're going to do something a little bit different Every week we break down the news as it happens But tonight I wanted to step back Because amidst all the noise And the nonsense Sometimes I think we can't see the forest for the trees. Because of the snow.

And the truth is, long before Trump showed up, I think it's fair to say that we have been finding it harder and harder and harder to have a substantive, honest, fair debate about politics, about policy, about issues that matter to people. Now, it would be naive to say that there was some golden age, but it would also, I think, be cynical to say it doesn't matter when we're overrun by corporate propaganda, by industry-sponsored research, by Sinclair Broadcasting putting Boris Epstein on the air to say whatever, brands with cool voices on Twitter, targeted ads that know what we're going to buy because they

know what we've bought in the past, and so much more. And so because we're no longer limited by what we see on television, by billboards, because we have phones in our pockets, we look at screens all day. We are engaged in a giant experiment, an experiment to expose ourselves to an absolutely staggering amount of bullshit on a daily basis, and we have absolutely no idea how it will end. So far, I'd say the results have been mixed. If this were like a double-blind scientific study, the researchers would do that thing where, because it involves humans, they'd open up the data and look at it

to see if anybody was being killed, and they'd be like, shut it down. Shut it down. I don't, this isn't safe for people. And so tonight, we are going to do a show focused on propaganda. Say it with me. Propaganda.

This is the problem. People are easily influenced. I'm very excited about our show tonight because we have a great panel to help us dive into this topic. She's a professor of political science at the University of Minnesota, focusing on political psychology, political propaganda, and conspiracy theories. Please welcome Professor Joanne Miller. How are you? Oh, thank you. It's great to be here. It's great to have you. Next, I want to welcome the newly elected mayor of St. Paul, who won

over 50% of the vote, the first African American to ever hold that seat, please welcome Mayor Melvin Carter III. How are you? I'm doing great. I'd like to welcome everyone to the greater St. Paul area. That's some Minneapolis shit. That's great. Oh, that's good.

So basically, if someone doesn't live on your block, you'll boo them. He's the former acting administrator of the Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services under Barack Obama and a current senior advisor to the Bipartisan Policy Center. Please welcome Andy Slavitt. Hi, Andy.

Hi there. How you doing? Good. Thanks for having me. Thanks for coming. And she's a contributing editor to the Daily Beast, a writer for It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia, a contributor to HLN's SE Cup Unfiltered, a Crooked Media contributor, and Minnesota's own Aaron Ryan.

Okay, first of all, John, Minnesconsin. Minnesconsin, not Minnesota. Minnesconsin. Minnesconsin? Yeah, it's like the border area. So no, I grew up in a town called Frederick, Wisconsin, which is an hour and a half from here,

but Minnesota, Minneapolis, St. Paul, those were my cities. I'm a Twins fan. I'm a Timberwolves fan. Oh, I misspoke. It said Minnesconsin. I see what I did wrong. Let's get into it. What an Orwellian nightmare.

nightmare. Over the past year, I think it's fair to say this administration has not only made a lot of policy choices that are horrible, but there's also been this warped use of language, how Donald Trump uses words, how they manipulate the truth. And I think it's been instructive to see how our system responds when we have an administration that has such an unhealthy relationship with the truth. But it's also, I think, hard to know how to respond to this threat. I think there's been a big debate, even among liberals, about, you know, do you fight back with facts? Do you have to play at their own game? Is there some other path? So first of all, I just wanted to step back. How do we define propaganda? What is it? Like, what is the difference between propaganda and just good old-fashioned persuasion? Well, the easiest way to answer that question is that propaganda, what is it? What is the difference between propaganda and just good old-fashioned persuasion? Well, the easiest way to answer that question is that propaganda is what my opponents

do. Persuasion is what I do. Right. I mean, if you look at the definitions of propaganda over the years, it's become almost so amorphous as to mean nothing. So it's communication aimed at getting people to change their political attitudes or behaviors that may or may not include misinformation. That's not useful. And so the negative connotation of propaganda has become, it's what the other side does. But it's really just political persuasion. So what academics tend to study is more the types of propaganda or the types of persuasion. So campaign ads, get out the vote drives. I study belief in conspiracy theories and how misinformation spreads.

But just to think about propaganda as a thing, it's almost in the eye of the beholder. But I still think though, when we use propaganda colloquially, we're referring to a kind of persuasion that we feel is wrong in some way, even if it doesn't contain a lie, that there's some way in which it's manipulative or unfair. So is there a distinction that you can draw even within this idea of it's just what the other side does? Sure. So even if it doesn't include a lie, it could have a lot of emotional content and in particular draw negative emotions. So we tend to think of types of persuasion that include negative emotions, potentially stir that kind of sentiment that many of us might feel is

unwarranted, and potentially also including lies and misinformation and half-truths as being what we would typically think of as propaganda. Do you think something different is happening that we're exposed to more of it than before, or is this just the way it's always been? So it's pretty much the way it's always been. The difference now is that we've got more mediums to see it. So we've got social media, we've got Facebook, and it spreads faster. But if you go back and look at campaign ads going back to the 1950s and 1960s, If you go back and look at campaign ads going back to the 1950s and 1960s, they're just as emotional and they're just as fuzzy with the truth as they are now. The difference is it's amplified and there's more of it. And I think the other difference is now that you have more people who can produce it.

So any person can produce their own campaign ad, put it up on YouTube. And so the dissemination then becomes not just from a candidate or a politician or an interest group, but it becomes anybody. And so it's kind of like the Wild West of political persuasion. Andy, we were talking about this a little bit backstage, about you dealing with people, kind of not big organizations, but individuals sort of coming at you with misinformation about healthcare. You're somebody that's been steeped in the healthcare debate, the true parts, the death panel parts, the true death panel parts. Now, and we're going to talk about what happened

during Obamacare, but right now, what are you seeing in the healthcare debate that where you're dealing with people kind of coming at you with stuff that just isn't true? Yeah, you know, so I think you've got a few types of people. I mean, on social media, you've got people who don't have to use their name, so they can say whatever they want. And what I like to do, what I've tried to do, and many people think it's stupid, I try to actually meet them in person and say, what do you really think, and see what they'll really tell you.

Then you've got people who just know they're lying, and the reason that they're lying, and I know there's a difference between lying and propaganda, well, at least the reason my kids would lie is because the truth sucks. And when your truth is you're trying to take health care from people, guess what you do? You fucking lie. And so I think we have that as a core.

What happens when you talk to somebody who either maliciously or ignorantly or innocently or ideologically comes at you and says you're just an obama guy pushing socialized medicine and you know i'd be like a little socialized medicine sounds pretty good but the uh but but what happens at least it's medicine at least it's medicine uh but when you engage with someone do any walls come down what happens when you talk to somebody who's coming at you with, and what kind of shit are you hearing? I think of two things. First of all, and you know this, in Washington, behind closed doors, the worst thing that happens is the door

closes and people go, I totally agree with you. I just can't say it publicly. And I'm sure that happens in politics and even in wonderful St. Paul. It happens, but it happens in Washington a lot. Never, never. You but it happens in Washington a lot. Never, never. He's been mayor just a few months. Come on. Let the record reflect that it does not happen in St. Paul. It's just a Minneapolis thing. And then I think, you know, I think anonymous people, when they're not anonymous and they're forced to deal with you on facts, I find it's helpful to say to them, you know what, I want to learn from you. And I start that way. And I say, I want to understand the points of view that you have that I don't understand. And all of a sudden, I think all that veneer kind of goes away

if people are willing to engage that way. By the way, I don't recommend engaging with trolls. I do it because, you know, I just... You have an illness, some kind of sickness in your heart. But it's not recommended. Mayor Carter, or can I call you Melvin? Absolutely. I didn't ask until we were on stage because then I knew I wouldn't get a no, you know? So you're here at the local level

where I think it's harder for someone to say, this street isn't plowed or this street is plowed. It's harder for there to be misinformation. Well, no, but I'm serious. You're where the rubber, you know, it's an old cliche about mayors, but you're where the rubber meets the road. You can't, Trump can tell his supporters that he built a wall and the military has never been stronger, but you're where people see the work every single day. Does that make it easier to have a conversation with people because they can see your work close up?

You know, I think it works both ways, depending on the day. I mean, we definitely have times where people have done things that go, you know, come on, you don't have to do that. Here in St. Paul, I really believe that the local level is the answer. I believe that cities, counties, absolutely. You know, we don't have the ability to just have partisan gridlock in City Hall. It snows today. We have to plow the snow. We have to get there. Right. We're always facing like an urgent kind of face to face right here situation. And so our goal is to really use our administration as a counterpoint to the Trump administration.

Every chance that we can get. Right. And so, you know, the conversations that we have are things like, you know what? We don't, we don't, we don't, I don't support building a wall. That's probably going to surprise you. Careful. These guys probably have Carrie Brickson around. They're so excited.

Not even with Minneapolis? Not even with Minneapolis. Wisconsin, maybe? But you know what? Just tweeting about I don't like to build a wall isn't enough for us. We say, you know, there's so many walls right in our communities that exist between neighborhoods, that exist between cultures, that exist by language and, you know, all those things. We got to break those walls right here on the local level. walls right here on the local level and because everything that happens on the local level is so immediate and so intimate I believe that the things that

happen on the local level not just in st. Paul but around the country can be the answer to all this nonsense so I feel like we're we're we're talking about not just propaganda which is a general term but sort of devious deceptive misinformation in the form of propaganda. Erin, with Trump around, do you think that liberals have become susceptible to their own kind of mirrored version of this, that because Trump is so deceptive, because there have been so many scandals,

because we don't know what's true coming out of the administration, that you end up with a Joker-Batman situation where we respond with our own version in some way sure or like a spy versus spy kind of version where like one person is the black spy and the white spy and we're all both we're both fighting each other and we're doing the same thing i actually think and i've noticed this that people people believe what they want to believe and they consume information that reinforces what they already want to believe and they shy away from information that in any way challenges what they already believe or what they want to believe and it happens on both sides and I I think that with

Trump in power with somebody who lies as much as he does in power I think that you have to look at the relationship between like liberals and their government the same way that you would look at any relationship that's been damaged by a betrayal like if you're married to somebody and they betray you you're always going to think that they're betraying you and you're always going to think that the worst thing possible is happening and that's what's happening i think among liberals right now and i'm not saying like oh i'm stupid liberals because like i'm a stupid liberal but But I think that it's something that we all need to be cautious of.

Like, instead of, you know, it would be awesome if the P-tape exists, and I believe it does. But I also think that we should, if evidence surfaces to indicate that it doesn't exist or that it probably doesn't exist, or that we might not ever know that it exists, we don't need to keep clinging on to it. You know, that it's really

important for us to be able to move on from things instead of, like, grabbing onto reality that we want to exist. Do you think that one side is better at doing that than the other? Better at giving up? Better at staying tethered to the truth. I know what I think.

And you can disagree with me. I obviously believe that it is hard to deny that Rachel Maddow and Sean Hannity are not equivalent. That we have our nuts. We have our conspiracy theorists, but they don't have the same... No, we've got fruits and they've got nuts. Oh, that's nice.

That's nice. It does feel as though there is a sort of a toxicity and a lack of care for the truth that just is not balanced. And do you agree with that? And what do you think causes that if you do? So two things. One, I would say that first a caution is that at this point in time, I think that liberals can take on a self-righteous, we are the bearers of the truth and we are the believers of the truth. Got a we are from the audience. Point take their point. Take yourself out of the limb there because I have a feeling you're not going to feel cool about where she's going and you may be super embarrassed in a second. Because I think she's about to turn on you. And

And that's dangerous. You're dangerous, Roelle. You're reckless. Top Gun. Gay film. Because I do think there's a point in which liberals can become complacent to it. Now, if you ask, is there more lying misinformation on the right than on the left. Certainly right now, yes. I don't think

that that's deniable. But that's not to say that liberals don't get sucked into their own lies and believe in crazy shit, just like conservatives do. And I think that if we forget that, then we can't move past it. You know, when Trump is no longer in office and there is a Democratic president again, I think it's important to remember that and be conscious of the fact that we're susceptible. Partisanship is a hell of a drug and liberals and Democrats are susceptible just as much as Republicans and conservatives are. And we're at a moment in time now where we can feel self-righteous, but it hasn't always been that case.

The 9-11 conspiracy theories are a perfect example where liberals jumped onto a whole bunch of horrific conspiracy theories around 9-11 when a Republican was in office. And we tend to see these ebbs and flows where during presidential administrations that are Democratic, Republicans are more conspiratorial. During Republican administrations, Democrats are more conspiratorial. Right now, we happen to have a very conspiratorial Republican president.

If the Zodiac Killer or Ted Cruz had been president right now, Republicans wouldn't be as conspiratorial now because their president wouldn't be peddling in the stuff that Trump is peddling in. So before we let you go, I did want to ask sort of historically, what are some successful strategies that have been employed in the past to combat misinformation? You know, there is this debate about how we push back. Do we fight fire with fire? Do we fight fire with

fact-checking blogs? How many Pinocchios will it take so we can impeach this guy? We need like 5,000 more tweets that start with, you, sir. Mr. President, sir, I would direct you to Federalist Paper number 10.

Good, sir. Have you no decency. But tweet it and don't say it. Dear Mr. President, we're tired of your lies. Sincerely, America. Retweet if you agree. Whoa. Whoa. Everything gets better after that. That'll show him. I'm getting onstage retweets.

Applause is like a retweet, sort of. No, applause is a fave. It's a fave. I can guarantee you that's already been tweeted after you just said that. Get it out there. We can make a change. No, but seriously, what are some,

historically, what are some examples of people finding a way to cut through this kind of noise? You're going to end on a depressing note because I'm going to say there aren't many, especially in such a polarized time. Back when we weren't so polarized, and this is where I think that the local level is really where it's at, where people have shared values around community and around what needs to get done. But when you move up to the national level, and we've got a situation now where not only do people not talk to each other,

but people think the other side is either criminals or liars or harborers of Mexican crazy immigrants, and that if you can't even deign to speak to the other side, so what do you do then? Do you try to beat them with their own game, right? Hit them back with other misinformation or other emotional content. Part of the problem is no matter what you can do or tell people what the facts are, the fact check types of things, you can't get past the motivation to want to believe the things you want to believe. No matter how many facts you throw at somebody who really wants to believe that the ACA has death panels, for example, we found that it's not effective.

The only things that are effective, one thing that is effective is when the other side counters the rumor. So if a Republican comes out and says there isn't death panels, that's a better way to counter it than if a Democrat tries to do it with facts, for example. Yeah, I feel like... Fuck! Pretty much. Someone tries to be fucked. These guys all took Snowpiercer to get here, and they're yelling, we're fucked at us. I think we might be fucked.

You know what, though? I have a theory that politics have changed, that politicians just haven't figured that out yet, and that people desire just a real deep authenticity. And when you ask the question, what gets through that? In my neighborhood, we look around and we see Washington, D.C., and when it feels like the Republicans are fighting against the Democrats and the Democrats are just fighting against the Republicans, I got a neighbor who always says, who's fighting for me? You know? And so I think what we have to do is be willing to, you know, and there's, there's two things, there's facts and there's truths, you know? And I do think that we're probably the party that sticks to facts more, but we don't tell our truths enough. I wanted you to know that I would, that's, I think that's exactly right. I think Republicans have

been much better about truths than we have been. And I think one thing that we can learn even from the Obamacare fight and passing Obamacare, even in the face of so much misinformation, is that there was a truth under there, helping people get health care, a belief in achieving universal health care. Now, Obamacare wasn't perfect, but an argument for the basic right of healthcare for all people is a truth that was stronger than misinformation and ultimately more important than any fact or any response. And so I do think ultimately what we need to do is have a story to tell, a story that kind of lies can bounce off of truths better than they can bounce off of facts, I think. That's right. And I think authenticity

is, I have a theory right now that American politics is at the place right now where the American people would elect a total buffoon who they consider authentic over like a genius who they consider manufactured. What makes you think that? I'd hate for us to test that theory.

Totally hypothetically speaking. Someone shouts, it's going great. All right. Well, on that note, what an Orwellian nightmare. I want to thank Professor Joanne Miller. That was so helpful, so interesting, so informative. Thank you so much for being here.

Thank you for having me. When we come back, OK, stop. so interesting, so informative. Thank you so much for being here. Thank you for having me. When we come back, OK Stop! Hey, don't go anywhere. There's more of Love It or Leave It coming up. And we're back! Now for a game we call OK Stop. Here's how it works.

We'll roll a clip, and then the panel can say OK Stop, and we'll talk about it whenever we feel, you know, whenever we call OK Stop. Here's how it works. We'll roll a clip and then the panel can say OK Stop and we'll talk about it whenever we feel, you know, whenever we have a thought. Andy, you helped spearhead the Affordable Care Act, also known as Obamacare, also known as the American law that forced every person to pay a tax and drink

poison. That's what it says here. So we thought we would look back at some of the ways in which conservatives and conservative media talked about a law that has now been in effect for the better part of a decade to see if any of the predictions that were offered came to pass. Let's roll the clip. You said those death paddles, which created a big controversy, and you're adding new words to the American vocabulary here.

You stand by those comments because you think it still exists in the bill. I do. It's a commission. It's a bureaucracy. It's bureaucrats who will ration care. Okay, stop. God, guys, I don't miss her at all. I almost admire her ability to, like, kind of live on her own planet. And it sort of was like a... It's interesting, because she sort of was like,

you know how they sent, like, the dog into space before they sent the people into space? She was like... Hold on. Tyco? Laika. Laika. Laika or Tyga? L-A-I-K-A, I think it was.

Laika? Laika, the Russian dog.-A-I-K-A I think it was Laika Laika The Russian dog Pundit's an angel It's my dog My dog's name is Pundit And she's a celebrity Okay I've met Pundit

Pundit's fine Huh I wonder if I've I've never been real mad On stage That's new That's cool Okay but anyway My point is that Sarah Palin was sort of Huh. I wonder if I've never been real mad on stage. That's new. That's cool. Okay, but anyway, my point is that Sarah Palin was sort of this, like,

you know, she kind of just streamed across the sky, and we're like, wow, get a load of that. That's crazy. And now... A shooting star of stupid. Just like, whoa! You're dumb. But, you know, her version of living on her own planet was sort of a proto-alternative facts. And now we're seeing, like, Ivanka living on, like, planet Ivanka,

pretending like she's some kind of lifestyle guru in the midst of the world being on fire. Right. And we have people like Kellyanne Conway saying the words alternative facts. And we have people, you know, we have Sarah Huckabee Sanders taking the podium at the White House almost daily saying, you know, everything's going great and we love the president. Sanders does. I just think that it's interesting now to watch Sarah Palin live in her little fake bubble knowing now what we know. Bill goes through as Obama wants him to go. Okay, stop.

But I do miss the days I do miss the days of her being the ridiculous Republican, right? Of her being the most ridiculous. Isn't it weird that John McCain did this? John McCain, who

at the very end of his career has tried to take... He's had mixed results. But he's tried to do a couple things that were not awful. Right. But also he did this. Sarah Palin, in every Jurassic Park movie,

there's a moment where one dinosaur runs over a hill and it's coming down the hill at your main characters and then all of a sudden another main character comes across the hill and says run, run, there's so many more. You won't believe

how many more dinosaurs there are behind her. Sarah Palin is that first dinosaur. But there was nobody... But there was nobody to say that there were... Nobody was going to be like, there's going to be more. We were all like, well, that's the end of that. As soon as Bristol got kicked off of Dancing with the Stars,

we were all like, that's the end of that. I actually think it was when she got her first Fox contract that everyone goes, oh, wait a minute. This is crazy as a business model. I can do crazy. And so it's easier to do crazy than to do smart. So I think all these people ran to do crazy because they realized they could make money at it.

Yeah, well, there's been that saying, it's easier to tear down a barn than it is to build a barn, which has been used to refer to the way the Republicans address the government. But it's actually also easier to just take a bunch of wood and assemble it into a random kind of da-da piece of art than it is to make a barn as well. Making a barn is still harder than making something insane that doesn't do anything. You know, you give me a bunch of wood, I can make a crazy shape. You're not going to be able to keep a chicken in it.

At the same time... Am I a folksy southern lawyer now? Yeah, I was like, I was like, what do you know? What do you know about raising the file? It's like they always say. Yeah, like my granddaddy used to say. Can't keep a chicken in it.

I was gonna add that the easiest thing still, and the thing that causes the most excitement, is if you just light the fucking barn on fire. Which is what's happening right now. So just lighting the barn on fire, we're all like, whoa. The barn's on fire.

Does smell great. Sarah Huckabee Sanders being like, the barn has been illuminated by a new technology. The American people will remember that the president invented a new technology that lighted up the sky. It's modeled, in essence, after a British system that does have people to decide whether, based on your quality of life, your age, whether you're going to deserve health care coverage or not.

So what she just said. You're about to talk about just her vocal inflections, right? Exactly. And how crazy those are. I'll save that for you. What she just said is exactly what the governor of Kentucky is doing right now by forcing people who lose their jobs to lose their Medicaid coverage. That's exactly what they're doing. They're deciding who deserves coverage and who doesn't.

And that is truth, not propaganda. She's clearly out there trying to say that this was, you know, Obamacare is a government takeover. It's going to be like Britain. It's going to be like a socialized system in which some government bureaucrat is going to decide who lives and who dies. You know, we're now living under Obamacare. Obviously, it has many problems. There are many things we want to do differently, many things we want to fix and improve, but that hasn't transpired. We haven't seen rationing, whatever that means, although we do ration it based on what people can afford, not based on what the government says. Why is it that there's no... I mean, aren't you like,

how are we still listening to these people? How are these people get to have a place to speak? I remember when they said all this shit was going to happen that didn't happen. So here's what's both frustrating and hopeful at the same time, is healthcare is actually the least political thing in our lives. When you're sitting there in a pharmacy and you can't afford to buy that prescription for your kid, everybody, Democrat, Republican, Independent, has the same set of emotions. When you're sitting there and your spouse is going through surgery and it's going two hours too long and you don't know what the hell's happening, there is nothing about politics in that moment. This got politicized. The answer to the question, I actually think, is not one side versus the other, who's truth and who's not truth. The answer

is we all have to depoliticize this issue. We all have to make this about what it is, about our families. It's about our financial security. Can I also just take a moment to just jump in for public employees for a second? Because people say government bureaucrat as though that's a bad thing. It's snowing outside. And right now, I got a whole team of people out there plowing the snow so that we can get where we have to go tomorrow. And so I abhor it when people try to criticize people who have committed their lives to helping each other and making our communities better. And it's amazing to me that the alternative, she's saying, do we want these people who have committed their lives to probably a pay cut, making the world a better place and serving communities? Do we want them making the decisions? Or do we want the corporate executives who are making profit margin decisions to make that decision for us?

Yeah, I want the government bureaucrats. Bureaucrats over executives. I'm with you. Very concerned when you start talking about cost controls. That a bureaucracy... Okay, stop. You left your wife when she was dying of cancer and you're getting

don't ever talk about healthcare whenever I look at his face and he's talking and healthcare words are coming out of his mouth I'm like you left your wife when she was dying of cancer he looked at his wife and he said I'm going to ration the number of husbands you have down to zero.

Here's the problems I have with the Affordable Health Care Act. Number one, there is a provision in there that anyone over the age of 74 has to go before what is effectively a death penalty. That's true, right? What was I doing with all those 74 year olds then are you the most prolific serial serial killer in minnesotan no it's i i mean the thing you admire about trump versus that guy is that guy's a shitty liar like trump will just say stuff and the reason i think trump's a good liar by the way is I'm not sure if he knows he's lying anymore. I mean, I don't think, I think he's got, like, you know how when you lie about one little thing and then 50 lies have to cover that lie?

I think he's been lying for so damn long that he just can say it with the same expression. Everybody else, like that guy, he looks like he's making it up. Yes, they do. Yes, they do. It's in there. Okay, stop. Hey, let's just be pleased with those town hall attendees who are like, what the fuck is this?

I'm not taking this bullshit. I'm 74. I didn't go to your panel. Hey, here in Minnesota, we're jealous that they even had a town hall. I struck a nerve. You can read that shirt in the front row. It says, Eric Paulson does nothing for me.

I believe that the candidate who was just selected to take on Eric Paulson is in the house. There is someone here. There is someone here. There is someone here. Dean Phillips. Dean Phillips. I think we've got some enthusiasm to flip some seats in Minnesota.

Because then we can win the house. And then we can take that gavel from Paul Ryan or Kevin McCarthy's hand. What I love about Minnesotans is they seem so calm and nice, but they will walk through a fucking blizzard to get to what they want to get to.

Hey, I'm just curious. A bit of trivia. Do you guys know where Paul Ryan is from? I think he might be from Wisconsin If healthcare is a constitutional right then everything associated with good health would fall into the civil rights category Okay, stop

This bullet point is inscrutable It reads If healthcare is a constitutional right Okay, stop. This bullet point is inscrutable. It reads, if health care is a constitutional right, alongside noted sexual harasser Bill O'Reilly, if health care is a constitutional right, then everything associated with good health would fall into the civil rights category. It's a slippery slope. What?

Wait, so do I get extra votes because I'm a long-distance runner? Because I would like five to cancel out fucking his vote. Entire environment. House, food, clothing, transportation, mental health. Okay, so I... This is... There's... So this is an unrelated thing, but...

So there's been this debate about a poo on The Simpsons. And someone went and pulled a response. So a bunch of kids, Jeet here wrote about this. A bunch of kids wrote to a newspaper in 1943 saying, please stop running racist stereotypes about black people in your cartoon section. The newspaper wrote back and said, well, children, we think this is the beginning of something. I mean, think about it. If we stop running this stereotype,

next you'll say we can't do an Italian stereotype or a Jewish stereotype or a German stereotype. What about the Irish stereotype? What about all these wonderful stereotypes? Have you thought this through? And they're like, yeah, yeah, stop doing those. Stop doing those as well. That was a long way to say. I like when they're like, a constitutional right to health care.

Next will we be guaranteeing people food and shelter? Okay. Wait, life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness? That's crazy. Be paid for by the state, if you could not afford it that's a form of communism because no country okay stop okay stop he okay so he said all your needs will be provided for the state your needs like if they are needs they are not things that are optional for you you can't decide whether or not you need heart surgery you You can't be like, you know what, I'm not going to get the old heart replaced this year. You're going to die or you're going to live. It's a need. And the government, I think, is responsible to accommodating the needs of its

citizens. So there's a fantasy that he is promoting, which is that there's this thing that's going to get, everybody's going to get what they need in healthcare called the free market. And that is the biggest fantasy to ever strike healthcare. There is no such thing as a free market when people are dependent for their chronic illnesses, their life. I'm getting healthcare. That's not free. And so what that results in is massive paychecks for corporate executives and people get what they get. And so we're not living, you know, we can't live in his world for very long. Yeah. I'd also just, it's part of the kind of myopia of Fox News, but there are liberal capitalist democracies that exist on planet earth that do all the things he's saying is not possible

to do without becoming a Stalinist state. They exist. We don't have to do it exactly like they do, but they exist. There are people in Sweden who will be starting businesses and coming up with new products in a place with a social safety net that takes care of people. It exists. Right. And if you've ever been to Canada, it's all like hot, happy, young people with families. And like, they look very relaxed. When it comes to the healthcare market, the invisible hand is just making the jerk off motion. And that's okay. Stop. When we come back, a new game. Don't go anywhere. This is Love It or Leave It, and there's more on the way.

And we're back. Repetition is an incredibly effective tool at getting a message to stick. at getting a message to stick. Repetition is an incredibly effective tool at getting a message to stick. What? They only let one flight out of Chicago this morning. And we were on it. And so when you're trying to deliver misinformation, it's helpful to use every

channel at your disposal. And when you're Donald Trump, you have several. So tonight we're going to take a look at how messages can get distilled and repeated from conservative news sources and Trump in a game we call Trump Tweet, Fox News, or Sinclair. in a game we call Trump Tweet, Fox News, or Sinclair? Here's how it works. I'm going to read you a comment, and you'll have to decide. Was it set on Fox News? Was it set on Sinclair, a Sinclair-owned network?

Or was it a Trump Tweet? Would someone out there like to play the game? Hi, what's your name? I'm Carrie. Carrie, where are you from? I am from St. Paul and I love voting for you. Who's Carrie? From St. Paul. We know where she's from, Mayor. Have you been in, have you been from, were you born in St. Paul? Are you from St. Paul? No, I was born in North Dakota. I was raised in Roseau, Minnesota. Way up north. Way up north.

And my parents are here. They're boomers and they love you. Oh. Yeah. Cool, cool. Have you been enjoying the ratio of workers to people paying into your retirement? You're welcome.

Keep working. He said keep working. Did you enjoy the infrastructure projects that your parents built? And the universities? Yeah, cool. Great. I hope they were helpful to you.

Thank you for passing it on. Carrie. Yes. I want you guys helpful to you. Thank you for passing it on. Carrie. Yes. I want you guys to know that every time I do this, it is touching a stove because baby boomers are not perfect. But one thing they have certainly figured out is how to type messages through Facebook to complain. I thought you guys,

you're supposed to be retiring and taking a painting, but man, you guys got those laptops on your lap before the Big Bang Theory starts. Carrie, can I ask you a question? Yeah.

Do your parents like Young Sheldon? I don't think so. NCIS, though, really big. They like NCIS? That's my dad's favorite show. Yeah. When I moved out to LA, my father, he said, Jonathan, you should write a show like NCIS.

And here was his explanation. It's dramatic, but they're not afraid to throw around the jokes. Yes, yes. Carrie, are you ready to play the game? I'm ready, I'm ready. Here's how it works. I'm going to read you a quote, and it will either have been from a Trump tweet,

a Sinclair-owned station, or Fox News. Let's get a clicking noise to create a sense of drama. Removal of historical statues is short-sighted. They should serve an important reminder of our past to help guide our behavior going forward. Sinclair? Correct. It's sad to see the history and reminder of our past to help guide our behavior going forward. Sinclair? Correct. It's sad to see the history and culture of our great country

being ripped apart with the removal of our beautiful statues and monuments. Fox? Wrong. Trump. It's about the eradication of history and acknowledgement that we had a really difficult, horrible moment in our country's history that we were able to overcome. Fox.

That is right. That was Laura Ingraham. That's a trade war, folks, and it's about time. Trump? Lou Dobbs. That is right. That was Laura Ingraham. That's a trade war, folks, and it's about time. Trump? Lou Dobbs. This is bad. Trade wars are good and easy to win. Here's an example.

Trump. Trump, you got it. We win, it's easy, was the end of that quote. Americans, including the president, have to be confident they are not being targeted or mistreated because of political leanings of those enforcing our laws. Sinclair. Correct. The special counsel, Robert Mueller, and his band of Democratic witch hunters never should have been appointed,

and they need to be disbanded immediately. Fox. Correct. Sean Hannity. You're doing great, Carrie. Thank you. Why does the Mueller team have 13 hardened Democrats, some big crooked Hillary supporters,

and zero Republicans? Yep. There are so many positive things going on for the USA, and the fake news media just doesn't want to go there. It's the same negative stories over and over again. No wonder the people no longer trust the media, whose approval ratings are correctly at their lowest levels in history.

Fox. Trump. What? The media cannot handle the fact that they are now being exposed as agenda-driven and fake news. Oh, Trump. Fox. I knew it. You gotta trust your gut, Carrie. Members of the media use their platforms to push their own personal bias. This is extremely dangerous.

Sinclair. Sinclair. Yes. Got it. You've won the game. Give it up for Carrie. She's won a parachute gift card. Hi, Carrie's parents.

Thank you for being here. Thank you for making the journey. I poke fun at it, but it's with love. I don't, you know, it's not all boomers, you know? When we come back, we're going to take a look at corporate propaganda. And we're back! An ad is basically the side of the story that the company wants you to know. And oftentimes, you can get the other side of the story from a neutral arbiter, like journalists or whatever insane people leave sincere Yelp reviews.

But what happens when a company controls the story? What happens when a source sounds like it's something you should trust, but in reality, it's not what you thought? Here's what that would look like in a game we call Citation Defenestration. In a game we call, maybe we should brainstorm for two more minutes on the name.

Hey, hey, you know what? If you can't handle me at my Citation Defenestration, you don't deserve me at my Snowchella. Would anyone out there like to play the game? Hi, what's your name? Jenny. Jenny.

And are you from Minnesota? Yes, I've lived in Minneapolis for 10 years. 10 years. Have you seen NCIS? No. So here's how it works. I'm going to read you a question about a corporate effort to change a debate. And it will be your job to suss out which is the correct answer.

Question number one. Since the 1970s, Exxon has been funding research on the effect of fossil fuels on the environment. What did their research find? Is it A? The Earth is our home, and we need to get all the oil out of it because would you want all that oil in your home? No, it's gross. Or was it B? Fossil fuels are harmless to the environment,

except for bees, raccoons, large spiders, and who wants those? Nobody. Or is it C? 80% of the company's research and internal communications acknowledged that climate change was real and was caused by humans, but 80% of Exxon's statements to the broader public, which reached a much larger audience, expressed doubt about climate change.

I'll go with C. Yeah, that's right. Jenny, question number two. Which of the following did Gatorade and other sports drink companies do to help influence public opinion over their products? Was it A. Developed school outreach programs that encouraged kids to drink sports drinks

during exercises and promoted hydration with research funded by Gatorade that claims, quote, children are particularly likely to forget to drink unless reminded to do so. Was it B? Scientists with links to the manufacturers of sports drinks have prominent editorial roles at important journals of sports medicine. So negative studies questioning what these companies advocate are difficult to get published in journals. Or is it C?

What these companies advocate are difficult to get published in journals. Or as it say. Established the Gatorade Sports Science Institute in 1985 to convince the public that thirst is an unreliable indicator of dehydration. And that people need to drink as often as possible to prevent the impending doom of dehydration. D, all of the above. Correct. Jenny, that was a trick question That last one worked on me I sincerely believe that you have to just drink all the time

even if you're not thirsty because your body won't know in time that if you're thirsty it's too late, you're fucked How many people have internalized that? It could be true It could be true Also, I just wanted to say that this week's Love It or Leave It is brought to you by Brondo. Brondo, it's what plants crave.

It's the thirst quencher. Well, that's Gatorade, not Brondo. Eh, whatever. Question number three. Jenny, the anti-littering group Keep America Beautiful popularized the phrase litterbug as a way to achieve what? Is it A, clean up the planet one person at a time because if we all chip in, we can do our part. Captain Planet, he's our hero,

gonna take pollution down to zero. I think that show, we should think about Captain Planet because I think it's pretty sophisticated. The villains are like, they're corporate. It's interesting. The villains are all Scott Pruitt. The villains are like, they're corporate. It's interesting. The villains are all Scott Pruitt. The villains are all Scott Pruitt.

Is it B? To shift the blame for littering onto consumers instead of the companies that produce wasteful products, which might be why Keep America Beautiful happens to be sponsored by Keurig Coffee, Coca-Cola, Pepsi, Dow Chemical, Nestle Water, Dr. Pepper, McDonald's, UPS, Anheuser-Busch, and formerly Phillips Morris.

They've also opposed legislation that encourages reusing and recycling bottles they help produce. Or is it C? To get the song, Wake Me Up Before You Go-Go, stuck in people's heads because jitterbug into my brain

goes bang, bang, bang till my feet do the same i wish it was c but i think it's b it is it's b question number four medical research has shown time and again that too much high fructose corn syrup can lead to health problems including obesity and cardiovascular disease however coca-cola hershey red bull and the maker of oreos recently funded scientific research that claimed global recommendations on limiting sugar were actually based on weak evidence. What is the name of the front group that conducted this research? Is it A?

The International Life Sciences Institute. B? The Mr. Goodbar Department of Science at Northern Gumdrop Mountain University. Or is it C? Research Institute of Normal Trustworthy Science Institute of Research. A. Jenny, it's A. You've won the game.

And the parachute gift card. Guys, give it up for Jenny. When we come back, the rant wheel. And we're back. Now for the rant wheel. Here's how it works. We spin the wheel and where it lands, we talk about the topic. This week we have a propaganda-focused rant wheel.

We have Facebook apologies, fake news, the phrase mission accomplished, beauty ads, ads aimed at children, ads for prescription drugs, corporate responsibility, and an audience suggestion. That's you. Let's spin the wheel. it has landed on ads for prescription drugs andy as someone who studies the intricacies of health care do you believe it has been a good thing or a bad thing to have private companies trying to tell people what medicines to ask their doctors for it is a bad thing now i i do enjoy someone trying to read the name of 70 diseases including the one that you're trying to prevent like for people who are depressed may cause suicide like that i enjoy but other than that i think it's a bad idea i think a real low point for american society are the advertisements

for a drug to take because you're constipated because of other drugs you're taking i feel like that captures the downside of our current exploitative conservative capitalism. It's like, we got this problem. People are taking too much medicine. It's gumming up the works. What should we do? Should we look at finding ways to maybe stop having people taking opiates in massive amounts? Well, we could, or we can top them up with another drug. And that's twice the amount of drugs. My big problem with drug ads is that drugs for generations have not been tested on women. And so women suffer from conditions

that doctors in the medical community do not understand and cannot treat. And they're offering treatments for fibromyalgia, which is like, oh, pain, or other illnesses that were not addressed by the medical community because drug manufacturers were, for a very long time, afraid of testing on women because they might get pregnant.

And I think that that is, I mean, it's something that we're just now starting to remedy, but it's something that is adversely affecting women who suffer from any sort of pain, childbirth, endometriosis, anything. And it is garbage and it's a national disgrace. And that's a great point. And it's still a problem

for people of color. It is an enormous problem for people of color. Yes, I was going to say, as a member of the African-American community, I concur. Well, I mean, and also... And then I've talked about it, and we want the crash test dummies and the drug test to continue to be for white guys between five, eight and five, 11. That's that's our sort of sweet spot.

Well, there is actually a really great feature. There's a great feature. Well, five, five, six. Come on. No, I mean, to the mayor's point, I think there was there was actually a really fascinating feature in the New York Times this week about the black maternal mortality rate that everybody should read. And it also is a reflection on the way that the American health care system has failed people of color, specifically women of color. She said that her real live dad is here. Can I just point out that my real live wife is here?

You can. And she's got a real live awesome women's health practice that serves amazing women of color every day. I just wanted to give her a shout out. That's great. She's going to be angry at me for saying that. Is she? She is.

That's too bad. Let's spin it again. Oh, stop it. Can't make people come on the show against their will. It has landed on fake news, which was suggested by Andy. Huge fan of fake news? What about the term? It used to be that fake news was literally a company,

like a Russian company made up a story, and it was a thing. Now it's like everybody's get-out-of-jail-free card. Fake news is this reflexive thing that people say, like if they get mud splashed on their boots, I didn't do it, fake news. So we've taken, that's going to have to be retired at some point in time pretty soon, I hope. I have never seen a phrase go from having a specific meaning to being taken. Like,

we talked about the fake news as Russian or other kind of purposeful lie to people on Facebook to get them to share things. Trump took it and turned it into something else. It spent like a day as a real thing. So my theory on fake news is I think that we can combat it by using it in all kinds of bullshit situations. So the other day I was putting on a pair of shoes and my shoelace broke and I go, oh, fake news. Just use it. Somebody says somebody couldn't meet me because they were like running 20 minutes late. And I was like, no, I don't have time to meet you. I was like, you are fake news. Just start calling everything you don't like fake news. It just means bad thing.

Let's spin it again. It has landed on beauty ads suggested by one Aaron Ryan. Okay, so here's something that has been a real bee in my bon. Okay. So here's something that has been a real bee in my bonnet lately. So I,

earlier in my career, I worked at a website called Jezebel. And one of the things, thanks guys. One of the things that we focused on a lot was overuse of airbrushing

in beauty ads because it prevents this like really ridiculous, it's like women who don't have any pores or visible ribs or pelvises. So far so good. Now what's the problem? Right. Essentially, essentially sexy snakes wearing wigs and Gucci. And that was something that we rightfully called out for

a really long time because it presents this version of reality that is just not something that's obtainable. And it makes women crazy crazy it makes women crazy and it makes men think that that's what women should be and it's garbage and then there's also like the weird science animation that's like look at this makeup that forms particles and sits on your skin and it's based on nothing but one of the things i was thinking this week was there was there was an article that came out about how there's a handful of Instagram stars who aren't even real people. And I realized as soon as we started calling out ads for airbrushing women into looking like something that they couldn't possibly look like, we started airbrushing ourselves

into looking like something that we couldn't possibly look like. And I think it's really important for all of us to take a step back and realize as we're consuming content online, interacting with social media, that what we're seeing is not real, in the same way that magazine ads were not real, in the same way that an animation for some kind of face cream that can make your wrinkles come out isn't real.

What you're seeing online isn't real. It's a form of propaganda that's been weirdly democratically assembled. Yeah. It's worth also remembering too that we've all, we've all kind of taken on the role of our own personal propagandists in our Instagrams and our Facebooks and our Twitter feeds. I mean, we both have our same favorite sides of our faces.

Don't tell them about that. We sit. Aaron, I agree with everything you said. I would just add to that. You said it's driving women crazy. It's driving all of us crazy. You know, we have young daughters. My daughter was three the first time she wanted her hair straightened

or she wanted to look this way or look that way to what she sees on television. It's insane the extent to which everything that you're just talking about is true. The only thing I would add is it's not just women. It's driving our youngest girls crazy, and it's definitely driving their dads crazy as well. And also, I think there's a lot of people out there

that feel like they're under attack. They're 5'6 3⁄4", and they say that they're 5'7", and then they're sort of torn down, which sucks because they can't get much lower, and they already started out so low to the ground. You know what I mean? Okay, first of all, I respect reality and truth.

Whatever. 5'7", let's spin it again. 5'7 1⁄2". I'm 5, ten. It has landed on Mission Accomplished, which I think is a good place to leave it. So Donald Trump, president, he tweeted out this morning that the mission in Syria has been accomplished. I think mission accomplished makes sense if what his mission was was to change the conversation away from the fact that he could not stop diddling porn stars right after his son was born.

If that was the mission, then the mission was accomplished. The conversation was changed. Now we were talking about the bombing of Syria and the fact that Donald Trump is now waging an unauthorized and illegal war in a way that other presidents have done. You know when the mission will be accomplished? The mission will be accomplished when dozens and dozens of boats carrying thousands and thousands of refugees get to our shores. And it's probably going to be it's probably going to be January of 2021 when that happens. I will be the first one out there with the mission accomplished sign. Well, it's like when when when when I saw the heat sweated mission accomplished, it reminded me of George W.

Bush, which makes total sense because George W. Bush is no longer the most unpopular Republican president in recent history. And the craziest part about it is I was like, oh, man, those are like the good old bad days. Episode title. By the skin of our teeth but i think snow chela snow well look we'll we'll vote it out no i i think it's worth closing this aspect that when i saw mission accomplished when i saw that basically trump had offered absolutely no rationale basically they're saying oh there's some article two power it's in there somewhere don't worry about it uh was a

reminder of the kind of propaganda we've all been steeped in, Republicans and Democrats, for decades and decades, which has led to the slow and inexorable expansion of presidential power. This is something that happened under Trump. It happened under Barack Obama. It happened under George W. Bush. It happened under Bill Clinton. It happened under George H.W. Bush. It happened under Reagan. It has been happening for decades. If you remember when President Obama decided to not ultimately order military action in Syria, he said he wanted I think, too cute by half, but there is a bipartisan consensus that if the president were to say he needs congressional approval, he'd be giving up something, giving up something that the president needs. And in a way, they're right. They're right because as a culture, we have allowed Congress to totally abdicate its responsibility to the point

where no one thinks that they're adult enough or empowered enough or responsible enough to have that deliberation and decide, yes, we should, and yes, we shouldn't, as a representation of the country. And now that we've put Donald Trump in charge of the most powerful and deadly military force in the history of humankind, I think we're all confronting the fact that both sides have failed for a long time on this, except, honestly, the people who have been the most consistent are some right-wing Tea Party Republicans, like Justin Amash, who I am no fan of on policy, who points out that when a Republican sought military force, Democrats wrote a letter saying you need approval. When a Republican wanted military force, Democrats wrote a letter saying you needed approval. And if there's one thing that

we can see, that the hardest kind of, I think, propaganda to see is the kind we all participate in together, whether it's jets flying over football games, or the idea that being tough means dropping bombs, as opposed to welcoming people, as opposed to keeping our air clean, as opposed to doing the many things that actually will help people, that have a proven record of actually saving lives, as opposed to military interventions that never seem to work. So I think that's a good place to close to remind ourselves that we are all participants in this and that a lot of people would have supported Hillary Clinton doing something in Syria using the same lack of a rationale as Donald Trump because we've

internalized a logic because of the kind of militarism we participated in for a really long time, which is a dark place to leave the show. But on the other hand, at least Trump's brazen bullshit and lying and deception has allowed a lot of people to say, hold on a second, I think something's really fucking broken here. That the way we make decisions is broken, that the way we get our news is broken, that for a long time, I think even the most vicious partisans said, good politics makes good policy. As long as, yeah, the ads are deceptive, and yeah, the news is broken. That for a long time, I think even the most vicious partisan said, good politics makes good policy. As long as, you know,

yeah, the ads are deceptive and yeah, the news is bullshit and yeah, people don't trust their institutions, but the right person ultimately wins. But then we look around and we realize we made

our worst person president. And we kind of have woken up to the fact that we have to do more work to make sure that we're not susceptible to misinformation. And that's why I wanted to do this show. That's why I am grateful to Joanne Miller for joining us,

for Mayor Carter, Andy Slavitt, for Aaron Ryan, friend of the pod. Thank you guys so much for coming out tonight, for making the trek in the snow. Thanks for being here at Snowchella, Minneapolis. Have a great night.