Lovett or Leave It - Ted’s Excellent Adventure

Episode Date: February 20, 2021

Emily Heller joins to break down the week's news from Cruz's vacation to Cruella's backstory. Also this week: Alicia Garza on organizing for change under Biden, Adam Grant on how to shift opinions in a polarized world, Jason Concepcion and Megan Gailey on the Bachelor, and there's the rant wheel... sort of.For a closed-captioned version of this episode, please visit crooked.com/lovettorleaveit. For a transcript of this episode, please email [e-mail].

Welcome to Love It or Leave It, Vaxxed to the Future. Yeah, he's got a sense of humor He's a straight shooter Alright, alright Everything will be fine Now that we've said goodbye Don, I haven't heard from him Since he stepped off Air Force One That's the way I like it Uh-huh, uh-huh

Let's go back to the future We love back to the future. We love Vax to the future. Won't leave Vax to the future, Johnny. 2020, why? That song was by Savannah Jane and Lee Meadows. It was awesome. If you want to make a Vax to the future theme song, please send it to us at leaveitatcrooked.com. If you want to make a Vax to the Future theme song, please send it to

us at leaveitatcrooked.com. Before we get to the show, some housekeeping. Here in the U.S. in the year 2021, people are still being elected, appointed, and hired as the first black anything. The What A Day team put together an incredible montage in Friday's episode with black men and women who just became the first in a variety of fields and what that means to them. Find the montage on What A Day's most recent episode that came out Friday, and there are more great features coming soon. So subscribe to the show to hear them all. What A Day is an amazing way to start your day to get a rundown of news. It is hilarious. It is informative. Check it out. Also, over on the Crooked YouTube channel, Jon Favreau, not the one from Chef, the other one,

he joins Alyssa Mastromonaco on her series, Let's Break Itau, not the one from Chef, the other one. He joins Alyssa Mastromonaco on her series, Let's Break It Down, to talk about how he went from a blank page to the State of the Union address in the Obama White House. They go behind the scenes and talk about how it all works and how they decided on the important details. Go to youtube.com slash Crooked Media to check it out. Later in the show, we're joined by Adam Grant, Alicia Garza, Megan Gailey, and Jason Concepcion. But first, you know her, you love her. She's the host of everyone's favorite segment, Returning Champion. Emily Heller in the Emily's Garden Show merchandise.

Yes, I always dress up for this podcast, but today I dressed up in my own merch. Finally arrived. How's it going, John? Very exciting. Look, I've made my peace with the fact that I've lost control of virtually all aspects of not just this show, but the large organization that creates it. Emily's Garden Show, no longer satisfied as a joke on this show, now has taken on a life of its own, including a t-shirt.

Including a t-shirt. Did you just say you made your peas with it? Because I'm making some peas in my yard right now. And let me tell you, they are photogenic as a motherfucker. How are all my friends of the peapod doing? I couldn't care it less about this. Well, I will kale you if you don't change your attitude. Oh, man.

Hey, just in the edit, if we could take some of the air out of that and make us look like we were lighter on our feet, that would be great. Hey, in the edit, I've got no notes. I think everything's going perfect. All right, let's get into it. What a week. We'll start with our worst joke per usual. A University of New Hampshire chemistry professor quit after posing as a female immigrant on Twitter to make racist and sexist tweets. Like any chemistry teacher, he was just looking for a reaction.

Oh, no. As was that joke. And I think you got the one that you wanted. Yeah, I got what I wanted. I got exactly what I wanted out of that. Meanwhile, NASA's Perseverance rover landed on Mars today, flying to Mars in the middle of a pandemic. Disgusting. I want you to know that I first wrote that to our news Slack at Crooked, and no one reacted. It got no positive feedback whatsoever. So I just copied and pasted it, put it right in this Google Doc, and now I'm reading it to you. And it went about as well as to be expected. No, I like it. I think it's good. I was just trying to think of like what a good pun about gays over COVID, but for being in Mars. Mars-a-vi-a. Puerto-Va-Mar-za. I don't know. Mars.

Mars-a-vi-a. Puerto Mar-a. Puerto Vi-Mar-za. I don't know. Why do I feel like it's 3 a.m. right now? I feel the same way. I have hit such a wall. It's so close, the end of all of this. You know, we can really see it.

And every day, there's a new date for when everyone's going to get the vaccine. Oh, yeah. Sometimes it's April. Sometimes it's July. Sometimes it's May. Sometimes it's any day now. Yeah, I stopped thinking about the future. I stopped even imagining a time when I will be used to talking to other people again. We've all hit a wall.

And you know what? I want to say congratulations to Donald Trump. Promises made, promises kept. He built the wall. We're all running into it right now. Trump, promises made, promises kept. He built the wall. We're all running into it right now.

The average number of new daily coronavirus cases in the U.S. dipped below 100,000 for the first time since early November, you said excitedly to a volleyball you dressed up to become your quarantine friend. Yeah, that's the other thing. There is good news. Like the case numbers are dropping and it's like you can really start to feel it. Like you can see the end is in sight. It's happening.

Yeah, it's sort of happening. But nothing has really changed. It's just that the end is closer. I'll believe it when I see it. I don't believe anything anymore. Do you think that you are going to bring your like weird quarantine habits back into the world with you when you come out? I've been thinking a lot about that. I think it's a really good question. I am not worried about the habits I've developed that I know I've developed.

Yeah. I am not worried about the changes that I know and I see. Like, for example, I'm wearing leopard print pants right now because they're pajamas. Yeah. And they've got pockets. You gotta do some digging when you're looking at a pair of pajamas on the internet, because sometimes there's no pockets. And you can't have... No. Even in home life, phone, AirPods, I got to have pockets.

You got to have pockets. What are you going to carry your phone in your hand while you're walking around? Like an animal. Yeah. Like a very smart animal that uses an iPhone. But what I am worried about is like habits I am unaware of completely, things I'm doing that I don't know because I lack the positive feedback or negative feedback,

not even like major events of feedback, but the little almost subconscious judgments we give each other all the time when we're in the same place that have been gone. Yeah. Gone. Like, I don't know if I'm safe to be brought to a restaurant. Like, I don't know. Like, am I, have I been eating soup with my hands? A little bit, you know, a little bit. There's going to be a period of time when I go back to a restaurant where I'm only ordering food that won't travel. You know what I mean? Like I'm ordering the sizzling fajitas, bloom and onion, just- Yeah, fish tacos.

Flambe. Anything soggy. Anything that gets soggy. I want that in person, right? I agree. Yeah, table side guac. I'm just going to demand it even at like Chinese restaurants.

A UK ethics panel has approved the world's first COVID-19 challenge study in which 90 healthy volunteers will be intentionally infected with the virus. And get this. They're all living in one house trying to marry the same woman. What? That ethics panel is they're pretty rock and roll. They're loose. Yeah, give it to some people. Give it to some people.

Anthony Fauci has said vaccines will be available to all Americans by May, and President Biden has said vaccines should be available to reach all Americans by the end of July, adding that it could be sooner if demand drops after Bill Gates microchip switches from dormant to rage. I don't care. I want the Bill Gates. I want 5G. 5G would be pretty sweet. Yeah.

Put all the chips in me. I want, if I get lost, them to be able to contact my owners. Yeah. Yeah. Chipped Emilys are far more likely to find their way home. Yeah. Yeah. I am so antsy to get this vaccine.

There's a little part of me that's like, aren't you worried that people aren't going to get the vaccine or they're not going to be? I'd be like, yeah, I'll worry about that the day after I get the fucking vaccine. Meanwhile, the prime minister of Japan has designated a minister of loneliness to help people home alone, joining the UK and addressing loneliness with a national cabinet position. That's a pretty neat idea, said the volleyball you dressed up to be your quarantine friend. Minister of Loneliness has my nickname at any point in my childhood. at any point in my childhood. Yeah, that is definitely the only cabinet position that's going to be used as an insult more than in its official capacity.

Check out The Minister of Loneliness. Yeah. You know? The Minister of Loneliness is the new album from Lana Del Rey. The Minister of Loneliness is a character in the song Eleanor Rigby by the Beatles. This is good. Those were plausible. This week, after a once-in-a-century snowstorm battered their power grid,

millions of Texans lost power for days in freezing cold temperatures. Many others lost water. Governor Greg Abbott says Texas hopes to have everyone's power restored in time for next week's once-in-a-century heat wave. Republicans blame the crisis on solar and wind energy, and it says here Hillary Clinton, Texans, scared and concerned for their safety, look to their leaders for help, and when they looked, they saw Ted Cruz wearing an open Tommy Bahama shirt, sipping a pina colada from a coconut at Senior Frogs. As I'm sure you know, Emily, photos surfaced Wednesday night of someone very much Ted Cruz-shaped boarding a flight from Texas to Cancun.

Many attempted to discredit the photos, believing there was no way a sitting senator could be so dumb as to fly to a beach in Mexico while so many in his state were literally freezing. But Internet sleuths suspected it was Ted Cruz because if you look closely at the photos, you can see his brain is thinking about pornos. It was Ted. It was Ted. It was Ted. It was Ted. Exhausted from attempting to overthrow a democratically elected president and from never having a real friend his whole life,

Ted Cruz decided to take a little me time by flying to the set of MTV's Spring Break 99. After getting caught, Cruz released a statement pinning the blame on his own daughters, saying he was merely escorting them on the pandemic vacay and implied, though didn't say, he had always planned to fly back from Cancun in less than 24 hours, despite the fact that he brought with him a packed tote bag and rolling suitcase. Blaming your daughters is such a move.

It's such a move and one thing that gives me a lot of pleasure about this story is just knowing that those girls are going to never forget that he did that because i remember when my dad blamed me for things that i didn't do 15 years ago i'm not the one who crashed his computer because of downloading something onto it but i remember that he accused me of that. And I will remember that until the day I die. Ronan thought that I had absconded with his AirPods Pro. And when I found them in his pockets of a pair of his pants, I held it up like in one of those like murder shows where they hold up the piece of evidence that everybody's been searching for i held up the pants i didn't even remove the airpods from the pocket because i thought it was evidence and i didn't want to just i didn't want to disturb the scene

you didn't want him to remove them from the yeah i don't get my prints on it and emily we also just this is breaking news i imagine i'm telling you this you're learning this for the first time the new york times reported moments ago that they had obtained a text chain this is real between heidi cruz and some neighbors about the trip here's a quote from the times piece when miss cruz wrote to the group text chain of neighbors trying to weather the extreme conditions early wednesday she said the family had been staying with friends to keep warm, but quickly pivoted to offering an invitation to get away. Quote, anyone can or want to leave for the week, she wrote. We may go to Cancun. She teased a direct flight and hotels with capacity. Seriously. Ms. Cruz promptly shared details for a Wednesday afternoon departure, a Sunday return trip, and a luxurious stay at the oceanfront Ritz-Carlton

in the meantime. No one appeared to bite. Well, first of all, I imagine that those women on the text chain are probably grateful to, for once, have an excuse not to go hang out with Ted Cruz. Like, this is probably the most airtight that excuse has ever been, which is just, that would be incredibly irresponsible. And also we're in the middle of a pandemic. Someone on our group thread got this text and we're like, fuck this noise.

I'm showing this to the New York Times. Screenshot, screenshot, screenshot. This is the thing I've been waiting for. So right now at this moment, I mean, this just posted, this just happened, which means we are having an experience not dissimilar to one that Heidi is experiencing, which is the Cruises now realize that someone in their group is leaking. Is a mole. Yeah. There's a mole in the Ted Cruz, Heidi Cruz group chat friend group. I love that. I love that. I love that. I love that so much.

Like, I want to see three, like, Fyre Fest-style documentaries about this entire debacle. I want everyone in the text thread interviewed for it. I want to know everything else that's been said in that text thread. I just want all the information. But also, okay, just backing up a little bit to the whole blaming his daughters thing. He said that, like, it made him a good dad to give his daughters a vacation in the middle of everything that's happening while their neighbors and his constituents are freezing to death all around them.

freezing to death all around them. And there is concrete good that he could do by staying in the state and, you know, doing what Beto is doing, like calling seniors, pitching in, helping their neighbors. It's not good parenting to indulge your children's desire to escape the reality of the world when you could instead be providing an example to them of how to be of service, especially when you're, I don't know, a fucking public servant. I think that's a really, really good point, Emily. I don't think that he was doing it to be a good dad. I think he wanted to, I think he wanted to read a book about how the Spanish Inquisition was justified while drinking a pina colada and having nachos at the pool fully clothed. That's sort of the Ted Cruz vacation that I imagine. out how the New Deal never worked and one super sweet drink, one plate of, now we know it's Ritz-Carlton nachos.

Yeah. And that's it. You know, that's what he's looking for out of this. Anyway, to recap, over the last five years, Ted lost the Republican nomination to a man who called his wife ugly and smeared his father as a murderer on national television, pledged during the convention to never support the Republican nominee. When the backlash was swift, he immediately surrendered and phone banked in support of that nominee, even though that nominee never apologized to him or his wife or father. He liked incest porn on Twitter on 9-11.

The fact that it was on 9-11 often lost in the retelling. He attempted to overthrow a legitimate presidential election on behalf of the same person who insulted his wife and father and never apologized, which led to five deaths during a domestic terror attack. And then after all that, decided to say he left his state in the middle of a historic crisis to go on vacation because he's such a good dad, which means Ted Cruz has now sacrificed his whole family to his political ambitions. Not one person has been spared. And it's a reminder, Emily, that sometimes politics can be fun. Yeah, he's just he's like the epitome of someone who is not pulling off a hat. I've never seen him wear a hat. And I he always has the vibe of someone wearing a hat that he's not pulling off.

You can't pull it off. Yeah, you can't pull it off. And he knows. And it's and then he's like pulling off. He can't pull it off. Yeah. He can't pull it off. And he knows. And then he's like, my daughter gave me the hat. My daughter gave me the hat. Yeah. Also this week, President Biden voiced his support for raising the minimum wage to $15 an hour.

Biden went on to explain that in his day, $7.25 could buy a bottle of Laird's Apple Jack, a phosphate for your best girl, with enough change left over for popcorn in a movie where Mickey Rooney plays Japanese. But times have changed. Also during the town hall, President Biden said he would not support forgiving $50,000 in student loan debt by executive action, objecting to the idea that he should do it without Congress and questioning the policy itself, calling for $10,000 in forgiveness

and other reforms. And at this point, Travis and I had a 20 minute argument in this Google Doc about Biden and debt forgiveness until we ran out of time to write a joke. My position is that AOC is right. I don't remember Travis's position. I think it had something to do with his dad being a veteran, but I was barely paying attention. I just look look, I, I think, I think Biden should go big and Travis had a different point of view. That was sort of the gist of the. Fuck you. New York assembly. What? I heard a voice. So uncharitable and it's so funny.

Something like that. I don't, I honestly can't remember. Cause it was like blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But anyway. Right. Yeah. New York assemblyman, Ron Kim accused Governor Andrew Cuomo of threatening to destroy him after Kim defended a Cuomo aide who blew the whistle on the governor's alleged burying of data on coronavirus deaths in the state's nursing homes. Sorry, Cuomo-sexuals. Back in the closet with you, you weirdos. One lesson I think we should all take away in this age of screenshots. If you're saying to somebody, I will destroy you, it's not, you're, it's rarely effective. Yeah.

I think the bottom line is if you're going to destroy somebody, you don't tell them. No, unless you're just dirty talking. That's like, it's a thing you say to someone's genitals when you are trying to promise them a good time. It's not something you say to a legitimate uh political adversary i just want to say i feel like the last month has borne out several different reasons why it should have been cynthia nixon both to prevent this bullshit that cuomo's doing and also to prevent a Samantha-less Sex and the City reboot.

Both crises could have been averted if Cynthia Nixon had won the primary. I hear that. I hear that. I definitely would be worried about a Sex and the City reboot with neither a Samantha or a... Miranda? Miranda. Wow. Of course Miranda. She's a lawyer. She's a Miranda? Miranda. Wow. Of course Miranda. She's a lawyer.

She's a lawyer named Miranda. Are you not a Miranda? I was just like my mind was just blown where I was like you can't remember the name of the one you are? Are you a... You don't think you're a Carrie, do you? No. Well, no, I guess that's right. Honestly, i know this is hard to believe i've never thought

about it rush limbaugh is dead that's right dead serious about spreading racist conspiracy theories also dead in the sense that he is dead limbaugh adored lies more than anything so in that spirit i'll say he died by self-immolation while trying to deep fry a turkey stop with vicodin in the sense that he is dead. Limbaugh adored lies more than anything, so in that spirit, I'll say, he died by self-immolation while trying to deep-fry a turkey stuffed with Vicodin in the Floridian cave he shared with a living Jeffrey Epstein. And finally, on Wednesday morning, the Trump Plaza Hotel and Casino in Atlantic City, New Jersey

was finally demolished. This time, as the building collapsed, there actually may have been Muslims cheering in New Jersey. Oh. Okay. Okay. It was a big crowd. There might have been Muslims in there.

We don't know. How many times did you watch the building go down and repeat? I watched it go down once and I loved it. I loved every second of it. I loved every second of it. I loved every second of it. Yeah. We'll be right back with an interview with Alicia Garza and Emily will be back later for The Rant Wheel. Hey, don't go anywhere. There's more of Love It

or Leave It coming up. And we're back. She's the co-creator of Black Lives Matter, host of the podcast Lady Don't Take No, and author of the new book, The Purpose of Power. Please welcome back, Alicia Garza. Alicia, good to see you. Hi, it's so good to be here with you. politics. What do you wish accompanied the protests back then? And looking forward, what tactics are you using to engage with politicians more directly? Oh, this is why I love you, John. It's all the right questions all the time. Thank you. I wish that in 2016, what we had had alongside protests was a robust policy agenda that we could have used protests to leverage. And moving into 2021, I think we're in a very similar position in the sense that we have opportunity to change the rules that have been rigged against our communities for a long time. From police violence to a lack of access to healthcare,

it's time for our movements to be able to put forward clear ways to unrig the rules and to expand opportunity and to expand wellness and wellbeing for everyone. That's why I started the Black Futures Lab after the 2016 election, because I knew that in order for us to achieve the things that we were taking to the streets for, we also needed to be able to mobilize and motivate and activate voters in this country to help support those agendas. In fact, John, I'm so excited to

be here because today, the Black Futures Lab and the Black to the Future Action Fund just launched our Build Back Bolder agenda, which we are calling a black mandate for the Biden-Harris administration. We know that we've come out of four years of absolute insanity. But the truth of the matter is things were not good for black communities before the Trump era. And with the pandemic, it really has been another nail in the coffin that we're being buried alive in already. And so what we've done is we've taken 30,000 responses from Black communities in all 50 states. We translated that into a Black agenda for 2020. And now what we've done is we've narrowed down and said, hey, we know that there are core priorities for this administration this year, and we share those.

Recovery from COVID-19 and relief. We know that economic justice is one of the pillars of this administration, climate justice, and also racial justice. So what we've done is created a mandate that provides a roadmap for how we get there, using racial justice as a vehicle for us to be able to get to our goals. I'm excited because we are out here calling for not just a one-time stimulus payment, but actually monthly stimulus payments with an auto-stabilizer for Black communities and all communities to get back on our feet, using racial justice to ensure an equitable distribution of the vaccine, which we know is not coming into Black communities, even though Black

communities have been hit first and worst by this pandemic. And then finally, making sure that nobody is being evicted from their home or having their home foreclosed on in the midst of a pandemic and in the midst of almost a year now of trying to claw our way out of this crisis with no supports and no relief. Those are just some of the immediate demands that we are levying at this administration, and we're excited to work with them to make them real. How receptive have they been so far? How does it feel? How much do they, how much, like, obviously, you know, we went through these, this four years where on virtually anything you thought of the presidency was an adversary. They were not just against program. I mean, they were, you know, it was one of the great threats this country's ever faced.

Now we have a more nuanced situation. How, how often right now on a number of these issues, where do they feel like allies and where do they feel like adversaries? I love the fact that you said nuance because we need it when talking about this administration. I got to tell the truth, leading up to November, I wouldn't say that the Biden campaign was excited about partnering with progressives. That was a big contradiction that we were facing. We were trying to get rid of the devil in the White House while also dealing with someone who wanted to take more of a center position on basically everything. But we also saw Black communities across the nation push that campaign over the finish line. It was large part Black communities who put Joe Biden and Kamala Harris into the White House and then subsequently changed the balance of power in Congress.

and then subsequently change the balance of power in Congress. That's important. And now I think what we're facing is that we've gotten a lot more engagement than I think obviously we did under the Trump administration and more proactive engagement, I would say, than we did under the Obama administration. But with that comes challenges. You know, with the polarized situation in this country, there's still too many people who are trying to figure out how to appease Republicans, especially the most extreme version

of this party that does not want to see forward motion. And in fact, they've built an entire agenda around moving backwards. And then they're confronted, right, with an administration that is essentially saying we just need to get back to the status quo as if the status quo was good for anyone. So we've seen politics in this country move farther and farther to the right. And I don't envy the position of the Biden-Harris administration in having to navigate those dynamics. But that's exactly why we are pushing to build back Boulder. But that's exactly why we are pushing to build back Boulder. We don't need to capitulate to a Republican party that is a mere shadow of itself. And frankly, even in the face of an attempted insurrection, the Republican Party continued to be on the wrong side of history. So we're trying to encourage this administration to continue to do the engagement it's doing. It's great that, you know, we're

getting phone calls from officials in the administration wanting to get to know us better. But as we're getting to know each other better, I think it's also important that we make some commitments to each other. It was Black communities that put you there. And so now you do have a mandate to deliver on the things that Black communities need to see. And frankly, it's not just about what Black communities want. I think we've seen time and time again that what's good for black communities is good for all of America. And I think we need to go into this next four years with that

at the front of our minds. So how do you how do you think about the balance between in this fight sort of pressure versus persuasion, even with Democrats, you know, you talk about not just like kind of talking to your own tribe, but trying to grow your tribe across differences to reach sort of common goals. How do you think about, like, where does persuasion fit into this? Well, I think the persuasion has to happen on the Democratic side of the ticket. Again, I think that the Republican Party right now is showing that it is the party of no, no thank you, and we don't have anything creative to offer.

of no, no thank you, and we don't have anything creative to offer. And so while we know that in a lot of places, you know, bipartisan support is necessary to get things done, I think we have to take a sober look at the situation and say, while we have power in all three branches of government, we need to wield it in a way that sets the terms for what governance is going to look like, not just over the next four years, but over the next decade, two decades and three decades. At the same time, I think that Democrats have a huge issue, and we've had it, honestly, since the beginning of the Trump era, which is this notion that everybody follows the rules. And as long as everybody follows the rules, we'll get somewhere. everybody follows the rules. And as long as everybody follows the rules, we'll get somewhere. If the Trump administration did not teach us that they don't give a shit about rules and that in fact, their entire existence is around eliminating any rules that will regulate their behavior or

anybody else's, then we've missed the boat. And there's a lot of talk right now about unity and coming together, but anybody will tell you, you can't solve a problem that you haven't acknowledged exists in the first place. I think we've done a better job in this period of acknowledging that we have a serious problem on our hands. The challenge is in a lot of ways, I hope it's not too little too late. We've spent so much time trying to acquiesce and trying to build bridges and offer olive branches that we haven't set the terms of engagement. And that puts us at a disadvantage over and over again. I think it may have been even part of the reason, right, that we weren't able to achieve, right, the kind of accountability that I think all Americans wanted from January 6th. Why are we seeing people who stormed the Capitol and attempted to overthrow the government

really facing a lot of leniency? Why are we now kind of moving the conversation towards task forces and commissions rather than being more stalwart in our efforts to make sure that that never happens again. We can't always spend our time looking backwards and assessing what happened. We also have to take action in the here and now to make sure that those things don't happen again, but also give people a different compass to follow around what we want this country to be and who we want to be within it. So on this question of unity, Jen Psaki, who's the White House press secretary, she made this point, which she said, when Joe Biden talks about unity, he doesn't mean that there should just be one political party. There's still going to be Democrats, there's still going

to be Republicans. I've joked that it's basically treat people with respect, argue from a shared set of facts, and don't burn the Capitol down. That's sort of like a three-part rule for unity. To your mind, you know, you talked about rules. We're about to have this big fight about passing legislation to protect the right to vote, to expand the right to vote, to stop gerrymandering, to get money out of politics through HR1, through For the People Act, to begin looking at statehood for DC and the disenfranchised in the District of Columbia. To do that, we may have to change some rules where even some Democrats are reluctant to get rid of things like the filibuster. How are you thinking about this fight for voting rights? And what role do you think kind of outside pressure can play in the coming months?

Well, I think that this should be one of the signature issues for the Democratic Party, if not the signature issue. And in fact, if Black communities had not overcome, sidestepped, and been resilient in the face of rampant voter suppression, from misinformation and disinformation online to literal poll taxes and, you know, voting tests, right, that we saw in the Jim Crow era, we wouldn't have a Democratic majority. We would not have a Democrat in the White House in the Oval Office. And certainly we wouldn't have shifted the balance of power in the Senate. I think that part of our challenge here, again, is that I wonder sometimes if we are stuck in the politics of the 1990s or the 2000s as opposed to the politics of 2021. And in the politics of 2021, we have a Republican Party

that I don't even think is the Republican Party anymore. And we also have a Democratic Party that frankly, a lot of people have lost faith in and a lot of people have lost engagement with. And when people turned out in massive numbers this summer to oust one of the greatest threats to democracy in my lifetime, they didn't do it out of allegiance to the Democratic Party. They did it out of allegiance to themselves. People said, I got to survive. And the way things are going right now, I don't have a shot. And I think Democrats have to look at the carnage and look at the results of that and say, how do we remake ourselves into the party of the people, knowing that our counterparts, right, are completely in shambles, and they don't even know who they are anymore. We're seeing that we

saw that on television for the last three weeks, right? They're having a complete identity crisis. And the small amount of people left in the Republican Party that still stand for the party of the 1990s are a sad minority of that party, right? So I'm of the opinion that one, I think a lot of people are thinking maybe we need more than two parties. I'm not going to get into the whole thing about is it the Green Party, is it whatever. But I will say that there is increasing evidence, right, that it may be that we're at a point where parties are undergoing the kind of transformation that could either make them irrelevant or make them better. On the other hand of things, I think that frankly, Democrats will be in for a sad, sad time if we don't take voting rights as seriously as it is. We have to enfranchise as many people to be able to participate in the

political process as possible to avoid authoritarianism. We narrowly escaped it in this last election cycle, but we're certainly not, we're not out of the woods. I mean, look, we, we know that Republicans have the ability to gerrymander enough seats in the House to take back the House. And do we really think they wouldn't object in a 2024 presidential election if they have vote the House and said, do we really think they won't do the exact same thing when they have the power to actually stop electoral votes from being counted? I mean, that's the thing.

They're already doing the autopsy of how they lost. And I mean, you and I both know that they just were not on their digital game in the middle of a pandemic, maybe because they weren't paying attention to it. But that doesn't mean that they're not regrouping and making their plans right now, not just to take back power, but to keep it. But that doesn't mean that they're not regrouping and making their plans right now, not just to take back power, but to keep it. That's why this issue is so incredibly important,

not just to black communities, but to everybody in this country. Alicia Garza, so good to talk to you. Thanks for taking the time. Thank you so much for having me. Thank you so much to Alicia Garza for joining us. When we come back, it's time people convince me why I'm wrong about The Bachelor. Don't go anywhere. This is Love It or Leave It, and there's more on the way. And we're back. Hi, thanks for doing this. Hello, of course. Good to see you. Good to see you too. It's so funny. Just there's more and more great Ted Cruz content coming out all the time.

Just him just realizing, now realizing he has to just do a bigger apology, which was so clear from the beginning. But people like Ted Cruz, it takes them a day to realize how much they need to apologize. I'm just, there's leaked text messages. Everything has been. Oh, yeah. We needed it. Honestly, Ted, thank you for giving this gift to a lot of people who needed something to

make fun of today during a hard time, you know? Cancun is like just the saddest place to go to. Like, I can't even think of a worse decision. But it's just so trashy and fun. It's really like if he was going to the Bahamas, it wouldn't feel this good, I don't think. I think that's right. Cancun elevates it. It is. It's the perfect place. It's the perfect place. This week, news broke that the host of The Bachelor, Chris Harrison, would be stepping away from the show for a bit after defending a contestant who took antebellum-themed photos a long, long time ago back in 2018.

Here's the thing about The Bachelor, though. It's a show that I just think is completely awful. It just seems so despicable as a thing that exists, but it's genuinely loved by a lot of people I respect, a lot of people in my life. They go to Bachelor watch parties. They talk about it. They're obsessed with it.

While obviously no one is defending what Chris Harrison said or what this contestant did, it did make me in general curious about what I'm missing about The Bachelor. So I want to go to some experts to change my mind. So this is a segment we're calling Debate Me Coward. Here's how it works. We have two friends of the show and two audience members, all who love The Bachelor, and they will each have 60 seconds to tell me why I should love The Bachelor and then have to face

60 seconds of cross-examination. First up, you know her, you love her, returning champion, Megan Gailey. Good to see you. All right. I'm honored to be here. I have notes in front of me. Okay. I came prepared and I think I'm actually even prepared for your cross-examination. I like did like a run through. I just want to be a witness in something. So I'm ready. 60 seconds. Kick it off. Okay.

So it is hot people acting as dumb as you've ever seen hot people do in the name of flat tummy tea and love. Like it's not even real stakes. They're just willing to act insane on television for our enjoyment. I think there is something and someone for everyone. There's always someone who's like napping too much, snacking, and you're like, that would be me if I was in this weird mansion in Calabasas. And there's all these offshoots.

There's Bachelor. If you don't like that, you can go to Bachelorette. If you don't like that, then you can go to Bachelor in Paradise, which is basically Survivor. It's also aspirational. If you see dumb people in Portugal having fun, you know you'll go to Portugal and have fun. Also, they set up rules, but they're not afraid to break them, much like the Marvel Universe. They're not afraid to have characters

going in and out. It's like, whoa, this is Matt's season. Why is there someone from Clayton's season here? That's not allowed, but they're not afraid to break those rules. And that's why I love them. And do you think there's any part of this show? First of all, what an argument. Do these people actually find, like this is about falling in love and getting married. Does that actually happen? Do these people have any genuine connection? It happens so rarely that you don't even really even need to focus on that. Like in the moment, their brains think they're in love and that's really all that matters. But almost none of them have long lasting relationships. So and they and they

like make out and they like pretend or they have sex. They have sex on this TV show. In the fantasy suites. Yes. They like build to that. They do not have sex immediately. Does the Bachelor or Bachelorette ever have sex with multiple contestants to kind of see how it's going? Almost always. Wow. Yeah, they'll have their final three. And I think most of the time they have sex with all three of them.

Back to back nights. And you don't see this as debasing at all? To say like, you know, like kind of healthy relationships as like sort of a model for people watching? Well, I think if you are watching it thinking this is good, like what relationships should be, you should not be watching it. You know, like dumb people should not be watching the dumb people. It's for people whose IQ is higher than the people that are on the show. Got it. So it's like a zoo.

Megan Gailey, thank you so much. Great defense. Great case. Thank you. So appreciative. So appreciative. I'm still on the fence, but I feel as though I've gotten some new insights. Thank you.

Thank you. Next up, we have Ben, who is going to make his best case for The Bachelor in 60 seconds. And then I'm going to, you know, look, I found out today, I didn't realize that I'm a classic Miranda. And then I will put him under cross-examination. Ben, over to you. The Bachelor, why isn't it just a toxic disgrace? It is not a toxic disgrace because it has all of the great things about fantasy shows,

but they're all beautiful people making terrible, terrible decisions. And in a time where so much of everything else is terrible, and we're watching the results of other people making terrible decisions affecting our lives. Sometimes it's nice to see people make terrible decisions that affect their own lives. And just being able to tune out and realize that there are opportunities for these future Instagram models to make mistakes. And it's just funny how they trip over themselves each and every season.

They fall into the same archetypes. It's somewhat comforting through all of this, all of the pandemic, that one thing is consistent, the bachelor. And knowing that these beautiful people are going to continue to make horrible, horrible decisions. Doesn't the part of the show where a bunch of people exploit the genuine need we have for human connection and companionship for the purposes of fame and attention, almost kind of like a metastasized cancerous version of love beamed out to tens of millions of people week after week. Does that concern you at all?

A little bit, but also I feel like it's not as bad as the stuff that gets beamed out anyways across other media. For example, Fox News is a thing. Okay. Okay. You say The Bachelor isn't as bad as Fox News. Do you agree with me that Chris Harrison, even before he had to step away because he defended somebody going to an antebellum party in 2018 in a way that reflected a kind of, let's say, blind spot to the extreme. Even before that, would you agree that despite the fact that he was making millions of dollars, that he had a kind of sadness in his eyes that made it seem like he might be sleeping with a loaded gun in his mouth? In a way, but I think he was making so much money, he would just put it next to his pillow every night. But also, he's been hosting the show for way too long. A host shouldn't be doing that for 20 years. You got to bring in some new blood. We want a new host. Yeah, you know, it's that's

interesting. And just for the record, I don't think it was because he would do it. I just think he didn't feel safe unless he had it there. You know, like, that's all that I was saying. Oh, I mean, that's probably a good point because he really can't seem to stop putting his, his foot in his mouth. Do you think that I've hosted love it or leave it for too long? How long has this been on four years? That should have been easier and faster. Ben, great job defending the bachelor. Thank you so much. I actually thought that I was going to do a better job of attacking this show. And now I'm a little worried we turned this into an ad. That's deeply concerning. Ben, thank you so much. Great job. Great to meet you.

I'm glad you enjoy this toxic bastardization of human intimacy. Thanks so much. Next up, our next resident scholar on the topic of The Bachelor. Oh, no. Here he is. Newest member of the Cricket family, Jason Concepcion. Thank you so much for being here. Hello. Now, you watch The Bachelor. I do watch it. I do watch The Bachelor. And you like The Bachelor. I do, though I readily admit that it can be horrible and toxic. Okay. Okay. So some nuance. Jason.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I'm going to hand it over to you. Just, you know, 60 seconds. Let's see what you got. Well, first of all, it's a story about love and it's a story about finding love. And it's a story about the lengths that people will go to to discover that lifelong bond with another person. discover that lifelong bond with another person. That's a classic kind of storytelling formula that has, you know, launched a million stories, a million novels, a million movies. I think add on top of that, the particular format, which adds a level of drama, of toxicity, of pettiness.

And I think it just, for me, it ups the entertainment level, because I readily admit, I just like pettiness. I like drama. I like people arguing. I like people messing with each other. I like people complaining about stuff. I think it's cathartic, particularly in these times to just let people vent and complain and be annoyed at other people. And that was, first of all, what a case. Thank you so much. Yeah. Some follow-up questions.

Sure. Have you ever been in love? And does it resemble what takes place on the program? In the sense that it involves human beings with arms and eyes and hair and skin. Yeah, it broadly resembles it. Yes, I've been in love. I could never imagine myself being on a show such as The Bachelor. And I think that's part of the fun is trying to imagine what could drive a person, what desperate streets could drive a person to do this. What could drive a person?

What desperate streets could drive a person to do this? And well, it always strikes me as this is a show that says it's about the oldest kind of story, the story of finding love. But really, it's actually a story about people pretending to fall in love while really trying to become famous. Some are and some aren't. And thus the famous query, is this person here for the right reasons? Who is here for the right reasons? Who is here for the right reasons? Who is here for that lifelong bondage? Who is here to just try and get cast on Bachelor in Paradise or the next season of The Bachelor as The Bachelor or Bachelorette?

How could there be a right reason? How could there be a right reason? What is the right reason to want to fall in, quote, love, end quote, on television with a stranger over the course of 30 days what could be the reason to do that i again finding that lifelong soulmate has anyone ever found that has anyone ever found a it's happened there have been couples that have uh that have gotten together some seemed more coerced than others, but there have been couples that have genuinely seemed like they've found love. And, you know, the search for that is just endlessly entertaining.

All right. All right. Jason Concepcion, that was an excellent case. So appreciative. I'm still not convinced. That's fine.'d share it. Take us inside this show that you set off, Mike, but that you think is like the best show on television. No, come on now. And captures your aesthetic. That you're a bachelor person. Well, no, I didn't say that, but I do. Listen, I love it.

I love the fact that I can have it on and not think too deeply about it. And I think that Chris Harrison has the easiest paycheck in Hollywood and amazing that he put that in jeopardy. That is amazing. I will say, I think what I've always noticed whenever I've seen snippets of The Bachelor is there's a sadness to Chris Harrison's eyes that is honestly, I swear, chilling. Not like Jeff Probst. He likes being Jeff Probst. Don't put them in the same. I jeff probst he likes being jeff probst i don't think harrison likes i don't think chris harrison likes being chris harrison yeah there's a there's an excitement and a vibrancy to jeff probst in his every gesture and word indeed chris harrison uh makes a reported eight million dollars a season to come out for 20 seconds when

the final rose is sitting there on the table and go, ladies, that final rose, when you're ready. And then you just hear, ka-ching, and then he walks off. That's cool. That's cool. Jason Concepcion, everybody, thank you so much. Thank you for having me. Michaela, I'm going to throw it to you. You will have 60 seconds to make your case for The Bachelor, and then I'm going to interrogate you for 60 seconds

with the questions that I have based on your case to explain to me why this isn't just a bunch of toxic garbage no human being should let their eyeballs see. Michaela, over to you. Okay, I will agree that a lot of it is toxic garbage. I will say that I am somebody, my work is very stressful. I need something that is just super lighthearted and fun, and so I love The Bachelor for that reason. I've been watching since I was 14, have not missed an episode or a spinoff in that entire time. Wow. Mega fan right here. I have gotten every roommate I've ever lived with attached to this show, including my husband, who is now also addicted.

And there's like a lot of reasons why it's great, a lot of reasons why it's horrible. and there's like a lot of reasons why it's great a lot of reasons why it's horrible I personally keep watching because Bachelor in Paradise is a delight and it's only fun if you have watched the seasons and know the people also there are amazing podcasts about it and they are also only great if you've been watching and it's just really smart women who are talking about how it's sexist and racist and it's beautiful in the time of pandemic, it is great because it is kind of like re-watching something nostalgic, but also new content. And it's so problematic. It makes me feel very smart.

And I love that about it. And if it's good enough for Listen After Monaco, it is good enough for me. What a case. What a case. Thank you. Is it racist? Is it racist and misogynist? Yes.

Okay. I'm going to ask you, I think you've made an excellent case. Thank you. Is it racist? Is it racist and misogynist? Yes. Okay. Yes. I'm going to ask you, you know, I'm not, I think you've made an excellent case. And here's what's on my mind, because I'm getting persuaded. I'm honestly getting a little bit persuaded, which is I'm reluctant when people say things are guilty pleasure, because what is a guilty pleasure? If it's not hurting anybody, like what's the harm, right? Why are certain things guilty pleasures?

You know, traditionally there is misogyny there that rom-coms are guilty pleasures, but like Moby Dick isn't. Like, okay, everybody chill out. But I used to watch a show and I considered it a guilty pleasure in the sense that I felt bad watching it. And it was a show called, and I'll admit this, it was called My 600-lb Life. I appreciated it and I convinced myself it was acceptable to watch, even though at times it felt exploitative, because it was actually a positive journey. You were seeing people that had real hardships because of weight learn new things, try to do better, get help, put themselves on the mend. There was something inspirational about it, but I also was a part of it that did feel like you're witnessing people at their worst and their most intimate,

that there is something uncomfortable and wrong about it. It sounds like you feel like The Bachelor has some of those guilty elements, but does it have anything to justify it? Totally. What is the good parts of The Bachelor, the parts that aren't a guilty pleasure, but just a fun part to watch? Yeah, the parts that aren't horrible are like watching the friendships that form, especially I would say on this season, it's been pretty gross, a lot of it. But there have

been really cool friendships. And in the pandemic, I'm not watching anybody else make new friends ever. And so it's really fun to watch a bunch of women just like be friends with each other and be nice, you know, once they get rid of like the terrible white bullies, which is done now. But like, I think there is actually change happening. There's a bunch of BIPOC people on this season. They're really wonderful, super smart. And there is change happening. And Chris Harrison is going to go away and he's not going to be a relic of this franchise anymore. And it can actually be a place where we see like different kinds of love and relationships happen. And one other question. Do they actually let them have food or is it just alcohol in the house?

I think they don't eat food like on camera, it seems like, but they do drink a lot. Not as much as they used to. Bachelor in Paradise is really where you get to see all the sloppy drunkenness. Highly recommend Bachelor in Paradise. Michaela, what a case. Thank you so much.

So nice to meet you. Great job. Great job. You really brought your EA game. I appreciate it. Thank you. I appreciate it. That means a lot coming from you. Thank you. Thank you so much to Megan, Jason, and to our listeners, Michaela and Ben, for sharing their thoughts as Bachelor experts. They've given me a lot of insight into why people might watch The Bachelor. And after listening to the arguments that were made in favor of The Bachelor, I've come to decide that I will 100% continue to not watch that show. When we come back, I talk to Adam Grant about his new book on why and how people change their minds. Hey, don't go anywhere. There's more of Love It or Leave It coming up.

And we're back. He is an organizational psychologist, professor, and author of the book Think Again, The Power of Knowing What You Don't Know. Please welcome Adam Grant. So happy to be back. Thanks, John. It's good to see you. I really enjoy the book. But. And I'm excited to talk to you about it. So I have a but. Look, in the spirit of the book, I'm going to try to first put you at ease before I get to the part where I attack you. That's what I thought the message was. Put someone at ease, then attack them. That's the lesson. So no, but I have one quibble, question, concern, but I'll get to it.

But first, we're in the middle of this pandemic. We are seeing a surprising skepticism around vaccines. And there was a fascinating story in the book around people you call vaccine whisperers. Can you talk a little bit about the kind of conversations with vaccine skeptics that have been persuasive? Because we see a lot of hand wringing, but I think not enough conversation about what to do about it. So the technique that seems to be effective is called motivational interviewing. It comes out of counseling

psychology originally with people who are trying to overcome addictions. And the basic aha is that you can't really force someone to change their mind. And the harder you work to preach that you know the way and prosecute them for being wrong, the more they tend to either get defensive or go on the attack. And instead of trying to force them to change their mind, what if you let them be motivated by someone they already like and trust themselves? And so the premise behind motivational interviewing is to have humility and curiosity and basically interview the person, right? Talk to me about what your vaccine concerns are. Are there any conditions under which you might consider getting one? What do you see as the pros and cons?

And you're supposed to listen in a nonjudgmental way and really try to understand whether they have any reasons to consider changing course. And it turns out to be remarkably effective when you take mothers who have major concerns about vaccines and just have a single motivational interview with them in the maternity ward after birth. The number of kids who are vaccinated goes up, I think, from 72 to 87% on average. And you get about a 9% increase from one conversation in the number of kids who are fully vaccinated two years later. from one conversation in the number of kids who are fully vaccinated two years later. Are you worried at all about the way we're talking about anti-vaxxers, specifically around the COVID-19 vaccines?

Do you see any signs that we're making the kind of persuasive arguments we need to be making? No. I think we're doing a great job demonizing people who, you know, who have legitimate concerns, right? Obviously, we want to get out of the, well, not all of them, right? Some of them have illegitimate concerns. But John, can you tell me what the long-term risks of getting an mRNA vaccine are? I don't know. Well, no. Well, so it's fine. I talked about this with Eric Lander, who we both know. And, you know, the point that he makes is there's a risk to wearing a seatbelt. Of course, anything we do to provide safety is not going to be perfect. That doesn't mean we don't do it, obviously, which you know. But yes, of course, there's always the possibility of some outside risk that we don't know about, of course.

Sure. And so, you know, I think obviously for everyone, this is a cost-benefit analysis. And what we want to do is we want to get people to weigh not only the personal, but also the collective benefit over the personal cost or risk. And yeah, I think from my outsider read of the evidence that it seems like most of us would be crazy not to get a COVID vaccine when it's offered to us, right? I think though that that doesn't mean that fears aren't real. Instead of judging people or dismissing their concerns, if we actually ask them, you know, tell me a little bit about your sources, what kind of evidence, you know, are you looking at? It actually opens the door sometimes to have a more thoughtful conversation. And I don't think that's going

to happen with somebody who identifies as an extreme anti-vaxxer, but there are a lot of people in the middle of that spectrum who are hesitant or reluctant. And we can usually learn how to have a reasonable conversation with them by trying to understand their fears first. So before there were people concerned about this specific vaccine, there have been anti-vaxxer movements that are rooted in misinformation, lies, no data, no evidence around autism, other concerns. And that's not to say that you shouldn't take people's fears seriously, but we're not having a debate between two sides, one of whom recognizes, based on a set of competing pieces of information, there are people kind of consumed by propaganda and then there are

people who aren't. And now in those situations, how do you think about breaking the cycle of kind of confidence? You know, you talk about it as a flat earth cycle. How do you think about breaking the cycle of kind of confidence? You know, you talk about it as a flat earth cycle. How do you think about, you know, what you say in the book is something like, you know, somebody comes to believe the earth is flat. They then join a community that confirms it in every way with tons of information, facts, data, information. They then talk to friends and family. They get a terrible response. And then the flat earther is like, I'm onto something, you know? I'm really pushing their buttons, all right?

I'm questioning the status quo. How do you intercede in that kind of a cycle? I don't know how doable it is for the average person, right? It's going to be hard. I mean, I think there are steps you can take that might increase the probability that they open their minds. I don't think there's a silver bullet here. But one thing I would do is I actually had a chance to do this with a friend who believes in some strong conspiracy theories about the dangers of vaccines. talk him out of them. And I know from some of the research that how questions tend to be more effective than why questions. So instead of asking him why he believed that, you know, big pharma and the government were in cahoots, I said, well, how do you think you could pull

off a conspiracy like this? These government agents who you think are completely incompetent, by the way, like how did they manage to pull the wool over the eyes of independent scientists with tenure who, you know, have an incentive to try to get to the truth? And journalists who, you know what, if this conspiracy is really happening, like there is a Pulitzer waiting to be won. Are you telling me there's not even one journalist who's skeptical enough and skilled enough to get to the bottom? Where are those people? And it kind of stumped him. And we ended up having a much more thoughtful conversation than I

expected. And so that would be one thing I would consider. The other thing that maybe has a little bit of potential, and I don't know, I think it depends a lot on the misinformation that somebody is believing, but I made a little bit of progress by just talking about what kinds of standards we're going to agree to. So I said, look, you know, when it comes to vaccines and you could do the same thing with, you know, with the curvature of the earth or the shape of the earth, I said, look, you know, I don't know all the evidence or information that you have available. As a social scientist, what I do is I evaluate evidence for a living. And so can I just talk to you a little bit about what kind of evidence I find persuasive so that you can show me some of that? And I said, obviously, I'm a fan of randomized controlled trials,

but those aren't very persuasive because it's one sample and it's relatively underpowered. And so what I really want is a meta-analysis, a study of studies where we accumulate all the randomized controlled trials, we adjust for statistical power and bias. Do you agree that that would be the gold standard? And he said, yes. And I said, great, show me a meta-analysis that demonstrates that the costs or risks of vaccines outweigh the benefits. And he couldn't. And that doesn't mean he's suddenly lining up for his COVID vaccine, right? But it means that we can at least start to have a conversation on some common ground. And I don't think that's going to work with somebody who's way off the deep end of conspiracy

theories. But if you think somebody is a generally reasonable human being, there may be potential there. So that is sort of what I felt as I was reading. And I find the aspects of this outside of politics I found fascinating. But the question I had when you apply it to politics is looming all over this, I felt two big problems. One is, there are obviously incredibly important opportunities to find common ground. But in some cases, climate is an example you use in the book, you make a compelling argument that there are strategic, political, kind of tactical reasons for not viewing climate change as a binary, because that is how you can bring skeptics over to your side. But in reality, right, yes, there's, of course, you know, some gray area in terms of

how fast climate change will come, how just how much damage it will do from extreme to very extreme, what the best solutions are. Of course, there's important debates. There's no consensus on every aspect of this. But there really is a broad-based, undeniable, fact-based, evidence-based consensus about the harm of climate change and a massive apparatus trying to pretend that that isn't so that has ensorcelled millions upon millions of people. about not seeing things as a binary, I just described it as a binary. That's, I have a binary bias, according to the book. But I happen to think that you and I agree that the binary I just described is pretty fair. So how do you think about persuading people to find common ground when that's actually just a tactic and we don't actually believe the common ground is real? Well, I think the common ground is real. So I agree with most of what you said, John. But when you look at the spectrum, and you saw me plot it in the book, the spectrum is very clear

that over half of Americans are somewhere between concerned and alarmed about climate change. If you look at the opposite end of the spectrum, it's only about 10% of people who are in the truly dismissive or denier category, right? And so what I want to do is I want to reach the people in the middle. And I know that they have a variety of motivations. Some of them just don't want to believe it because it's threatening to the way they run their business or it's threatening to their worldview. And we know that if you want to change what people believe, it's helpful to think about what they want to believe.

And so I guess what I would say is, if you think about those people in the middle of the spectrum who don't get enough attention, who are actually probably more of the problem than the smaller group of deniers when it comes to behavior change and policy change, what I would want to do is,

I just want to be wary of lumping them into the denier category. Because if you only create the believer and denier categories and somebody's on the fence, it's kind of hard to go all in all of a sudden, right? And so it's easier to align yourself with the skeptics. So I'd want to work on creating a third or fourth camp and say, all right, you know, we understand that you're not bought into the one solution we're most excited about right now. But, you know, are you open to the following kinds of solutions? And maybe there's somewhere I can plant myself that doesn't lump me in with these people who are very anti-science.

And that's the kind of conversation I want to have. What bothers you about that conversation? I'm teasing out the difference between two groups of people who just see the world differently. Use the example of Red Sox fans and Yankees fans. And a group of people who have a pretty accurate but uncomfortable view of reality, which is climate change is an incredible threat. The solutions are often difficult or hard to think about and may cause a lot of disruption. Nobody likes it.

Thinking about the end of the world is not fun. Believing in climate change introduces real anxiety for a lot of people, especially the people that focus on it all the time. And yet, despite that, it is real and it causes serious harm. And yes, it's valuable to pull people away from denial. That common ground is a political place we're trying to get them to. It's not the best place to be. The best place for them to be would be standing with us, that you're kind of making a tactical compromise and alighting a moral judgment about what we actually have to do. Maybe. I might reframe that a little though and say that I'm trying to take a longer view tactical compromise and alighting a moral judgment about what we actually have to do.

Maybe. I might reframe that a little though and say that I'm trying to take a longer view and recognize that I'm probably not going to win an argument in one day with somebody who's pretty skeptical or even cynical, right? And so what I want to do instead is plant seeds that allow them to detach from the opposition and say, all right, you know what? There's a lot of nuance here. There's a lot of complexity. I'm not a scientist. How in the world do I have strong opinions about the climate? I don't even know how to interpret these data. You know, maybe I should be a little bit more receptive to learning. And I think that's a first step, right, toward then trying to introduce them to more valid data. But we're just being sneaky now. Now we're just being sneaky. We're trying to be sneaky because you are persuaded about, you're trying to find the best argument to reach people,

but it's a tactic. And I think it's a good tactic. I support it. I don't think it has to be sneaky. I think you're attributing sneakiness. I support it, by the way. I support the sneakiness. I think maybe we have to be a little bit sneaky. Maybe. But I also think that the moment you get found out is the moment that people realize a manipulation attempt is occurring and then they put their guard up and then we're back to the drawing board. And so what I would rather do, John,

is I would sit down with that person and I would say, I probably have a tendency to want to bring you over a certain side. And obviously I'm a big fan of science. And so you know where I'm likely to fall on that, right? All right. That's okay. But I also don't want to be that person who's shoving my beliefs down other people's throats.

If you end up changing your mind, I want it to be because you actually believe in the science, not just because you're trying to shut me up. And so, you know, I'd love to ask you some questions and share a little bit of what I've learned over the past couple of years to see what your reactions are. I don't know. There's something that's a little bit disarming about acknowledging your persuasive intent and then trying to overcome it and say, I have a bad habit of preaching at people and prosecuting them. And that's not the way I want to live my life. That's not the person I want to be. I would rather talk like a scientist.

So I, and I actually, and I'm pushing on this, but I obviously, I totally understand. And I think we basically, I'm being churlish, a word I've never used on this show before. But so I guess here's what I was thinking about, which is some piece of advice that stuck with me about interpersonal relationships, is that when you're dealing with someone who is erratic, for lack of a better word, crazy, it'll move your baseline. You have a set of kind of reasonable views, trying to be evidence-based,

trying to see something from another point of view. You're dealing with an erratic, defiant, difficult, unreasonable person. To reach a commonality, to reach a common ground, difficult, unreasonable person to reach a commonality, to reach a common ground, to kind of, you'll move your baseline. You'll move toward them just to get out of a bad situation. And maybe that'll help you in that moment. But it's not really leaving you in a better place than where you started. And I think about that in terms of politics, because, you know, there's data about our bubbles. You talk about the bubbles, and they exist. There's a liberal bubble, there's a conservative bubble, they don't overlap. But there's a lot of important data about what those bubbles actually look like in practice and what they look like in practice.

And obviously, these aren't closed systems and every person has a little bit of a different way of getting their information. But all else being equal, liberals seem to get their information from very liberal sources, from mainstream sources, and from a variety of sources. They go to MSNBC, they go to Vox, they go to Facebook, little pod Save America, they go to New York Times, they go to the Washington Post. Conservatives in these studies, much smaller, much tighter bubble. Fox News, ancillary websites, and that's basically, you know, right-wing sites, they don't go beyond that. At least they go beyond that far less. And so you talk about bubbles,

but what I see is I see a group of people with a kind of broad, diverse information ecosystem, maybe not enough conservative sources, and a group of people kind of on an iceberg leaving us. And you say, we have to figure out a way to find common ground. And what I fear is that is aceding to moving the baseline away from reality just to find common ground.

I definitely don't want to do that. Okay, cool. I also don't want to bully people into agreeing with me, though. The trick is to find something that works in between those two. Okay. How do we do that? I don't know. I know.

Yeah, well, who knows? This is the problem. It's hard. This is the problem. Well, like, it is hard. But I guess, I think for me, like, here was my butt that you were, this is, I haven't even gotten to my butt. And by the way, just, I'm saying this almost defensively, but I really do mean it. I'm glad we're having this conversation.

Not that what's about to come is so harsh that I need to kind of preface it with a compliment. I actually really enjoyed the book. I think it's really worth reading. It's a interesting way to think about a variety of different problems and ways of like ways organizations function, where you can think about just engaging people in difference. And so I think it's a really valuable read. And I found it incredibly useful, even in the parts that I took issue with. But here was my question for you.

You make a point of talking about your antipathy to party. I am a partisan. I am a partisan. I am part of, I am the soap from which bubbles, we put the soap up to help people make their bubbles. But what I would say is, I think you have turned not being a partisan into an ideology. And not being partisan as an ideology makes it harder for you to see the reality of a bunch of these crises, not as a situation in which we have divides we need to cross,

but actually we have a big group of Americans in a relatively okay information ecosystem trying to solve problems. And there is this rear guard action of right-wing misinformation and propaganda that is actually a problem to solve problems. And there is this rear guard action of right-wing misinformation and propaganda that is actually a problem to solve. Not a difference of opinion. Not a difference of opinion. Interesting. Not a difference of opinion. Interesting. Yeah. I think that might be a fair critique. I'm trying to choose the lesser of two evils. And what bothers me so much about

partisanship is that people stop thinking for themselves. They essentially end up believing whatever the party line is. And I think that's part of how we got here, right? Like the idea that someone would identify as a Republican as opposed to identifying as somebody who's interested in the truth and holds a set of values and is open to lots of different policies for how to advance those values, that's a mistake to me. And I would say the same thing to a Democrat. And like, I think about, let's take a very concrete example of this. Let's take Abraham Lincoln. So Lincoln comes into office convinced that trying to abolish slavery would tear the union apart. How lucky are we that he changed his mind on that, right?

And said, you know what, actually, we should abolish slavery. I don't think his values changed much. He cared about human rights. He was against the idea that people should be treated differently, let alone enslaved, because they were black. But if you look at him today, he was moving from one party to another, and that would have been very hard for him to do. And I think creating such bubbles around parties makes it harder to say, I'm going to hold fast to some core values that are important to me, but I, silos, moving from heterodox, ideologically inconsistent parties to really consistent parties.

That is a problem. Right. But if the conservative party in the United States treated information and disagreement like the liberal movement in the United States, we'd be in a much better position. And so I think we have two problems. One is polarization, which is absolutely real. But it is a small problem compared to the incredible danger of what's happening inside of one of our two political movements. our two political movements and that the effort to see oneself as nonpartisan and to approach our problems in a nonpartisan way leaves us without the tools or framework to think properly about the actual mortal threat to the country right now. That's interesting. I think my first

instinct is to agree with that. Rethinking that instinct a little bit. I can't help but wonder if there's not a way to rise above that. And to say, look, we're going to elevate truth. Let's take social media algorithms as an example here. I believe everybody has the right to freedom of speech. Obviously, we should leave hate speech out of that. But I don't think that means everyone's entitled to freedom of megaphone. And you can imagine building an algorithm where before reaching more than 150 or 1,000 people, a post had to be fact-checked. And there was an independent group that did that fact-checking. You can imagine, maybe we're too polarized now to do this, but you can imagine creating a group that's trusted by, quote-unquote, both sides to do that kind of work. And it seems

to me that that would be a nonpartisan approach to solving the very problem you're worried about. Unless one of the two political movements does not recognize the kind of epistemological work as valid. Yeah. That is sort of central to the liberal project. Like when one of two movements becomes authoritarian, a lot of these tools stop being useful. Yeah. So anyway. I think that's right. And that's why I said maybe we're too polarized now.

And maybe what I should have said is maybe there are too many Republicans who have lost their grip on the truth or their commitment to facts and science for what I'm suggesting to work. But I still think some of the things that opened my eyes while I was researching this book are relevant to making progress there, right? Let's take a simple idea like solution aversion. Yes. I never would have crossed my mind. It's such a powerful idea in psychology that, and it's very new, that when people hear a solution they don't like, they will often respond by ignoring or denying the existence of the problem.

So you give me a heavy, if I'm a conservative, a fact-oriented conservative, and you give me a heavy government regulation approach to tackling climate change, and I don't like that. I'm like, eh, let's not worry too much about climate change. If instead you can offer me a menu of possible solutions and ask me which ones I'm more and less receptive to, all of a sudden, I'm like, oh, yeah, you know what? There are a bunch of ways of tackling this problem that I could get behind. And now we have at least some people at the table who didn't want to come before.

And maybe that's just progress on the margins and you're trying to solve the more existential issue that I'm not qualified to solve. I want to just end by asking you, what is something you've rethought since the pandemic? And one thing that was on my mind that I did want to ask you about was I see these two competing ideas at once. One says work has changed forever because of remote. And the other is I can't do this anymore.

I can't be remote anymore. I'm losing it. What have you learned or rethought as this pandemic has unfolded about work? Because I know that that's something you talk about all the time. Yeah, I came into the pandemic thinking that we should all be experimenting with remote work before it started, right? Three years ago, in 2018, I tried to get a bunch of Silicon Valley companies to just even do remote Friday and run the experiment, and none of them would do it. Like, you're crazy. We already have good evidence that

productivity goes up, that satisfaction goes up from the flexibility and that there are no costs to coworker relationships as long as people are in the office half the week. And what I've rethought since then is, is how palatable that is for a lot of people permanently. And I think now it looks like most companies are going to end up being hybrid. And the thing that I'm still rethinking is how do we make that work? How do I have enough office space where you can actually build a culture, but I don't have to have a bunch of empty desks all the time? And does that mean that we actually organize on shifts where different people are in the office on different days? And if so, how in the world do we make some kind of synchronized collaboration happen? I think there are a lot of open questions there,

but I've definitely let go of my belief that remote work was going to work for a lot of the people most of the time. One thing that I've been thinking about, which is just a small practical problem, but I think has big consequences, is a group of people in a room together works. We've been doing that for a very long time.

Five or six people sitting in a circle, we know how to do that. Being over Zoom is a not ideal imitation of that, but you can have a conversation and you can have a discussion. What I wonder about is the challenge of mixed groups of people. When you have three people on Zoom and three people in a room, it never works. One space becomes the dominant space and the others become observers. Whether it's, if you have five people remote

and two on speakerphone, it's a remote meeting. If you have five people in the room and two remote, it's an in-person meeting. How do, like, this is very nuts and bolts, but if we are gonna be hybrid, how do you have a hybrid conversation? I don't think we know yet. You know, when I put on my scientist hat,

that's an experiment waiting to be run. So one experiment I would try is let's have the remote people running the meeting to make sure that their voices don't get lost. Let's have them facilitate. Another is if part of the group is remote, then everybody should be on a computer, even if they're in the same room together with headphones, right? And that way you're at least trying to minimize status disparities. But I think it's going to be a hard problem to solve. And I don't think we have good approaches yet. Adam Grant, thank you so much. The book is called Think Again. I really recommend it because I think we spend a lot of time talking about the ways we disagree and how harmful it is in so many different spheres. And this is a really thought-provoking and interesting way

to think about solving some of those problems. So congrats on the book. Thanks, John. This is an interesting conversation. You've actually given me a bunch of things to rethink, which I always appreciate. Damn right.

And by the way, Adam, let me tell you something. I learned nothing. I'm going to leave that, not love it. Thank you so much to Adam Grant for joining us. When we come back, the rant wheel. Don't go anywhere. This is Love It or Leave It, and there's more on the way. And we're back.

Now it's time for the rant wheel. You know how it works. We spin the wheel wherever it lands. We rant about the topic. This week on the wheel, we have the Disney-announced film Cruella, the Wednesday Addams Netflix series, Ted Cruz's mask, trellising, hardening off seedlings, whitewashing, sunflower seedlings. Wait a second.

This isn't The Rant Wheel. Play the music! Play the music! It's Emily's Garden Show. That's right. It's The Plant Wheel! It's Emily's Garden Show. That's right. It's the plant wheel. It's the plant wheel. It's not the rant wheel.

It's the plant wheel. Emily's taking over the show, and now it's time for the plant wheel. Welcome to Emily's Garden Show. It's time for the plant wheel. Let's spin the plant wheel and see what it lands on. The plant wheel has landed on vermicomposting submitted by John Lovett. Let me hear what you got. Vermicomposting?

Yeah, it's like a worm bin. It's a worm bin? Yeah. I'll tell you something about vermicomposting. Ew. Yes. Ew. What about composting was not good enough for you?

Is it just composting, but you put worms in it? Yeah, the worms make the compost for you. They turn it into the poop, worm poop, and then you put that in. I just don't understand why you submitted this if you didn't have a rant prepared. Let's do another one. Okay, it has landed on the Wednesday Addams Netflix series. That was submitted by me. Okay.

Can I just say, Netflix announced an entire series about Wednesday Addams from the Addams family, directed by Tim Burton, showrun by two other white men over 50. And I got really mad about it because, you know, I'm sure there are women on the creative team, but they're not the ones who pitched it and sold it. women on the creative team but they're not the ones who pitched it and sold it and netflix should have known better than to say yes to a pitch like that by a bunch of old men about a character like wednesday adams who so many weird girls identify with and would have had a lot of fun with and it just made me think about tim burton in general as the glory hoarding uh goth filmmaker that he is where i feel like there are so what he could have done in his career is he could have mentored a diverse

group of young spooky filmmakers and created a legacy for himself without having to come up with a bunch of new ideas all the time about new spooky dark eye shadowed women

and instead he's giving interviews about why he doesn't put people of color in his movies he's uh doing shit like this and i just it just feels like a wasted opportunity and i want the next generation of of spooky people to get their shot that's all i wanted to say let's spin the plant wheel again. And it has landed on trellising submitted by John Lovett. What the fuck? How did it come? I don't...

Trellising? Trellising? Yeah, what method do you like to use? I've heard the Florida method is good, but it seems a little complicated for me one thing that i've moved away from i'm just going to jump in here because it feels like john doesn't really have much of a rant here uh is i have learned that there is no substitute for just a modular trellising method of having a bunch of different stakes and a bunch of twine and just redoing it as needed.

You don't need to buy a specific tomato cage, is what I'm saying. Oh, trellising is when you kind of hang, when you tie, like vines, you tie them up so that they grow up. Yeah, it's a plant, it supports for your plants. Got it. Now that you know what we're talking about, do you have a rant? Yeah, they drive me crazy, these trellising.

Classic, classic love it rant. It's out of control, the trellising. Sick of it. Let's do one more. It's landed on Cruella de Vil. I don't know how that ended up on this wheel because it's landed on Cruella de Vil. I don't know how that ended up on this wheel because it's not a plant. And I also didn't submit it, but it was submitted by John Lovett.

I don't understand. First of all, how the plant wheel, it was fine to have Wednesday Adams, but I submit Cruella to the rant wheel and on the plant wheel, it's a problem. Here's what I'll say. Here's the thing is this is my show and we do things my way. That's true. And's a problem. Here's what I'll say. Here's the thing is, this is my show and we do

things my way. That's true. And I like that. I've noted your complaint and I will do nothing more with that information. But go ahead. I'll just say you are being such a fucking Miranda right now. Cruella, here's what I want to say. I see a lot of people right now judging the trailer for the Emma Stone vehicle Cruella, the origin story for the woman in 101 Dalmatians whose only character trait we know of is that she likes to murder dogs for their skins to make a coat. And I've seen a lot of you cast many aspersions about this film based purely on the trailer. And here's what I want to say. Have some faith, all right? Because I'm telling you, Iions about this film based purely on the trailer. And here's what I want to say. Have some faith, all right?

Because I'm telling you, I've seen this film, all right? And I'll tell you, it was one of the most extraordinary experiences of my life. Because by the time you get to the end of that movie, and I know this seems impossible, I know this seems hard to believe,

but I am telling you, a part of you will not just understand why Cruella de Vil wanted to kill those dogs. Part of you will not just understand why Cruella DeVille wanted to kill those dogs part of you will agree with her that's the powerful film that Disney has created I know there's been some criticism all right that this is not a character who needed a backstory her only trait is the desire to literally skin dogs she stole to make a coat out of two adult dogs and 99 puppies. I know that that's troubling for you, but this is what I'm talking about with cancel culture,

all right? You haven't even sealed the fame. And now that you know that I've seen it, I can tell you that I came away genuinely shocked by the depth of the Cruella de Vil story, totally relating to the fact that at some point earlier in her life, there were people who were mean to her. And so later in life, she came to be the kind of person who wants to steal dogs from a family to turn them into a deeply uncomfortable and quite ugly coat. I hope that you come approach it with an open mind, all right?

Because this is one thing that we need right now, all right? We need more people to approach it with an open mind all right because this is one thing that we need right now all right uh we need more people to approach cinema with an open mind yeah you're hoping that um you're hoping that by the end you know like you know how at the end of finding nemo all these people went out and bought those fish and put them in their aquariums as if they didn't understand the movie at all you're hoping that at the end of cruella de vil people are just super on board with killing a bunch of dogs. I think that's what Disney's agenda is with this film. Yeah.

And somebody said this to me, and I think it's exactly right. It is a testament to the homophobia so entrenched in our culture that we have a Cruella backstory before an Ursula backstory. Oh, yeah. I want to see the story of Ursula the Sea Witch. That's what I want, all right? That's the money I want to spend, yeah. I want to see the story of Ursula, the sea witch. That's what I want. All right. That's the money I want to spend, Disney. Yes. I want an Ursula story. Ursula just

made deals. You know what I mean? Did she even kill anyone? Much less puppies? She didn't try. She did turn people into weird little plants. But keep in mind, the king is an authoritarian goon. All right. And it's not like what. Anyway, look, here's the thing. All right. Ursula the Sea Witch. They kill her.

They kill her poopsies. Her eels. Flotsam and Jetsam. Yeah. Zapped to smithereens. Yeah. I just think there's probably more room for nuance there than with a character named Cruella DeVille, who is just a rich dog killer, who they really did not want to leave you any room there. There's no – yeah, she just wants to kill those dogs.

And I'll just – Emily, I don't know if you've ever thought about this before, if you noticed it, but actually if you look at the name Cruella de Vil, it has like cruel devil like right in the name. Oh my god. Oh my god. And that's the plant wheel. Or the rant wheel. Thank you so much, Emily. Well, I guess we're still technically in Emily's Garden, so I guess I should stop hosting and be a better guest.

I still appreciate being thanked. It is well earned. That's it for Emily's Garden Show. When we come back, we'll end on a high note. Hard to top what we just did, but we're going to try. Hey, don't go anywhere. There's more of Love It or Leave It coming up. Love It or Leave It is brought to you by the artist and the athlete.

Lindsay Zarniak has spent her career covering the biggest stories in sports for networks including ESPN and Fox Sports. Along the way, she's become fascinated by the intersection of sports and music. As the saying goes, athletes want to be rock stars. Rock stars want to be athletes. For both, the climb to the biggest stage is similar. What drives them and the challenges they overcome are not. No, I definitely think it's way more fun to do the music way. It's like, how did you become the best in the world?

I tooled around with a guitar in my garage for a while and then did drugs till I was on television. What did you do? I woke up every day at 4 a.m. and I have not eaten red meat since 1991. Yeah, I think the music way is way cooler. Okay, well, let's see what i hear a bunch of musicians are gonna start tweeting at you whatever each episode of the art what are they gonna do huh

each artist of the artist and the athlete pairs a prominent sports figure alongside a renowned musician for an intimate wide-ranging conversation that explores their path to success their process and their passions went away from the big stage. Featured guests like Danica Patrick, Alanis Morissette, Clayton Kershaw, Brad Paisley Schach, The Chainsmokers, Eddie Vedder, Anthony Rizzo, and more. New episodes every Tuesday, wherever you get your podcasts. And we're back. Because we all need it this week, here it is, The High Note.

Hi, I love it. My name is Kelly, and I'm calling from Buffalo, New York. And my high note is that my son Ronan got to try bananas for the first time yesterday. And I know that's not anything huge, but we found out about a baby in December, so kind of watched the world fall apart during my pregnancy, and he hasn't really met a lot of family yet. So each milestone just kind of feels like a light in a pretty dark time, and he absolutely loved it. Bye. Hey, Lovett. This is Patrick from Buffalo, New York. I'm calling because my high note for the week is that yesterday morning, I was able to get the first dose of the Pfizer vaccine for both myself and my 76-year-old mother. Pretty exciting, especially since I'm a teacher, and it's still a little scary going back into buildings knowing

that the virus could be out there. So, I hope everybody's doing great, and thank you. Bye-bye. Hi, this is Sophie from D.C. My high note is I started a new job this week. I lost my job due to COVID way back in June, and I've been applying and applying and applying, and I finally landed one and started, and it's even better than the one that I lost. So I'm feeling really, really grateful and lucky. Thanks. Bye. Hey, Lovett.

This is Fran from Chicago. I just wanted to share my high note of the week. I have been trying to open my little neighborhood coffee shop for almost a year. I signed a lease on a commercial space in March of last year, right before COVID exploded. And I finally got my permits this week. So I will actually be able to do my construction and hopefully open within a month. So that's my high note. And I hope everyone stays safe. Thank you for all you do. You're my high note of every Saturday. Thanks. Bye. Hey, Lovett. This is Trevor. I actually am out in Naples, Italy right now. And us active duty folks are starting to get our second dose of vaccine today. And that was my high note.

By God, it was a relief. Thanks for all you guys do over at Crooked. It's been the light at the end of the tunnel over the last four years. Take care of yourselves. Goodbye. Thanks to everybody who submitted those high notes. If you want to leave us a message about something that gave you hope, you can call us at 323-521-9455. Thank you to Emily Heller, Adam Grant, Alicia Garza, Megan Gailey, Jason Concepcion, and everybody who called in.

There are 626 days until the 2022 midterm elections and 79 days. Oh, man. No way. Until Travis's birthday. Yuck. Have a great weekend, everybody. Love It or Leave It is a Crooked Media production. It is written and produced by me, John Lovett, Lee Eisenberg, our head writer, and the person whose gender reveal party started the fire, Travis Helwig.

Jocelyn Kaufman, Pallavi Gunalan, and Peter Miller are the writers. Our assistant producer is Sydney Rapp. Bill Lance is our editor, and Kyle Seglin is our sound engineer. Our theme song is written and performed by Sure Sure. Thanks to our designers, Jesse McClain and Jamie Skeel, for creating and running all of our visuals, which you can't see because this is a podcast, and to our digital producers, Nar Melkonian and Milo Kim,

for filming and editing video each week so you can.