Lovett or Leave It - The Nom Before The Storm

Episode Date: September 26, 2020

Trump is terrified of democracy and he should be. Kara Brown joins for the monologue after a tough week of news. Puneet Cheema from the NAACP on the lack of accountability for the killing of Breonna Taylor and the future of police reform. And PJ Vogt of Reply All joins to talk about their fascinating investigation into the origins of Qanon. Plus we quiz listeners on polling of persuadable voters.

Welcome to Love It or Leave It, Home Stretch. Right now, love it all Believe it, we can win this Believe it, I know it can be awkward To call people you don't know But imagine how John Lovett feels In a closet telling jokes Phone bank, volunteer Donate, work the post That amazing song was sent by Jason Harris. Thank you to everybody who keeps submitting these songs.

If you want to make one for the homestretch send it to us at leaveitatcrooked.com that's leaveitatcrooked.com and maybe we'll use yours we only have six shows left before the 2020 election is done people are voting already so we are in the homestretch that means each week we'll be hyper focused on doing what we can do to win

the election and keep ourselves upbeat and motivated during the process so it's time for homestretch homeroom, a great segment and a lesson in going with the first idea where I give you a weekly syllabus school homeroom of what you can do to help defeat Donald Trump. First, this coming Wednesday, September 30th is the last FEC end of quarter fundraising deadline for this election season. The money campaigns raised now will help them make critically important spending decisions

for the last month of their campaigns. Every donation can help tip the scales. You've already helped make a huge difference in 14 Senate races through our Get Mitch Fund. And now if you go to votesaveamerica.com slash donate, you'll be able to donate to key house races through our new housekeeping fund and state legislative races where your dollar will go the furthest through our fuck gerrymandering fund. Thank you. gerrymandering decisions being made by state legislatures across the country. Also, if you haven't volunteered yet, it's not too late to sign up to adopt a state. And if you've adopted a state, check your email and do the things we're asking you to do. We can see who opens and doesn't.

And about 10% of you are doing a great job and the other 90% of you need to step the fuck up. So do that. Open the email. Do what it says. There are less than 40 days. There is no reason to wait. Come on. We're in it. We've been paying attention for a very long time.

You have not spent four years paying attention to fuck it up in the last 40 days. We'll have more opportunities than ever in October, so commit right now to doing more than you ever have. This is it. Let's make sure that on November 3rd, when the last poll closes, we are tired. Later in the show, we'll be joined by PJ Vogt from Reply All and Puneet Chima from the NAACP Legal and Education Defense Fund. And we'll be joined by some listeners for a game. But first, she's a writer for In the Dark, Grown-ish, and

the Marvel series She-Hulk. Welcome back, Cara Brown. Oh, hello. Oh, hello. I wave to you like waving means anything anymore. Hey, they can't take away waving. Not yet, at least. It's the last thing to go. Let's get into it. What a week. And as far as seven day stretches goes, this one was a real humdinger. A lot of bad news. It's a tough week. The death of Ruth Bader Ginsburg, the immediate effort to fill her seat, the lack of accountability for the murder of Breonna Taylor, Trump more and more explicitly rejecting democracy, not to mention the fact that we crossed 200,000 deaths due to COVID-19. So, Cara, we're going to start with a joke that's just incredibly stupid. Okay, good. Just an incredibly dumb, distracting, like a joke

so bad it's distracting. Are you ready? Please. An Illinois man has kept Richard Nixon's unfinished sandwich in his freezer for over 60 years. When he opened the sandwich container, do you know what it said, Cara? Tell me. I am not a croak. Oh, no. Okay. Okay. You know what I feel like?

Like, it's like if you've been awake for like 36 hours and you just like you're so discombobulated that that's what i'm counting on that's where yeah because i laughed at that but i shouldn't have no you definitely shouldn't have i actually went and read an article about this man and my favorite part of the article is uh so richard nixon comes to some kind of picnic this is 60 years ago he was a kid oh what takes three bites of this sandwich says he liked it thought it was delicious. Then he kind of goes on to the next thing that Richard Nixon was the next Nixon event. And my favorite part is this guy is like, so I looked around and I'm like, is nobody

taking this thing? Was it just in the fridge? Like there wasn't any other preservation tactic? It was. I'm glad you asked. They placed it in a jar. Okay. And then they placed the jar in the freezer.

And apparently it's moved between several freezers over the last 60 years. Does it still look like a sandwich or is it like a moldy? Yeah, we don't know. We don't know. Does it matter? It doesn't really matter.

I just love the idea of a guy looking around being like, am I crazy? Is nobody taking this? This is amazing. Richard Nixon took three bites. And that it's surfaced now. Like, you know, why not at year 30 or 40 or why now? Because we have so little going on.

I can see why he thought this is what the world needs. He's looking back on his life, his achievements. This week, we reached a grim milestone. As I mentioned, 200,000 deaths caused by COVID-19. The number of confirmed COVID-19 deaths in the U.S. is equivalent to a 9-11 attack every day for 67 straight days. Kara, are you ready for what I consider to be too dark a joke? I don't have a choice.

So, yeah. Here we go. Okay. That's a lot of inside jobs. Oh, no. Oh, no. I know. god i know and and um there was other there was an alternative that was worse and we even i was gonna maybe just tell you that but not put it in the podcast but i can't even bring myself to do that so we'll just kind of move

forward it's a dark time and i've embraced that darkness in terms of just accepting that it's going to be part of these jokes. That's what that's what we're doing. That's what we're dealing with. Will you tell me the joke later? Or is it like, OK, OK. Yeah, it has to do with Dick Cheney's fantasies. That's just a little.

Oh, OK. That's all you need to know. Got it. I think. Well, you know what? That reminds me of The Office when Michael Scott said something like, you know, 9-11 just became funny and you've proven that wrong. In better COVID news, the FDA is set to announce a stricter set of standards for emergency

authorization of a COVID-19 vaccine, which would make it harder for the Trump administration to politicize the approval before the election. The new standards say the vaccine must prevent COVID, not just a Biden victory. It can also do that, but it has to do the COVID piece. The Biden victory part, that's nice to have. Sure. You know, with your vaccine, but it has to do the COVID thing. Got it. Okay. That feels like real information. That's real information. Finland is launching a pilot program to try out a coronavirus sniffing dog at the Helsinki airport, which will lead to...

Oh my God, this dog loves me. What's her name? I'm sorry, what? No, I know. It's adorable. What are you trying to tell me? Why does everyone look so upset? This dog's adorable.

I don't speak this language. I just love this adorable dog. What are you yelling at me about? That's good. I guess it'd be Finnish. Finnish. And we're Finnish with that joke. Oh.

Oh. Do you think you've gotten funnier during COVID or? Yep. Yeah. Absolutely. Thanks for asking 100%. No, I definitely think that you here's the thing. You take away the audience feedback for six months. You get funnier, you know? Sure. Sure. And you were always so receptive to audience feedback anyway. So. Well, look, I look I like

the audience to like what we're doing, but I don't know. They're not the be all end all. All right. Sometimes they're just wrong. Something can be funny and they don't care. That's true. On Sunday, a Canadian woman was arrested for allegedly mailing an envelope containing ricin to the White House. Another job for an American sent abroad. Now, before obviously, Kara, obviously, we are glad they found the ricin before it could hurt anyone we are glad we are glad they found the ricin before it hurt anyone sure let me just say I mean I don't think I'm doing it I have to get into character we are glad that the ricin was found before it could hurt anyone sure but hey but at least the post office is working. You know, I saw that and I

had a thought. I think the first time I ever did love it or leave it, I said something about wanting to punch Paul Ryan and you guys cut it out. You'll probably have to do it again. 100 percent. And so my thought was in that general vicinity. No, for sure. And again, I just want to reiterate that both Cara and I expressed that we are glad they found the ricin before it hurt anybody. Sure. Obviously. On Monday, the Justice Department, going full fascist, issued a list of cities it has deemed anarchist jurisdictions, including New York City, Portland, and Seattle, for the purpose

of potentially withdrawing federal funding. New York City, anarchist, the line too long for cupcakes on bleaker. Here's a rule, Kara. Here's a rule. You can't call a city an anarchist. It's such a dumb word, anarchist. Anarchist. You can't call a city an arc and on our putting the stress at the wrong place because it's anarchist yeah there you go you were doing too much are anarchist anarchist yes of course sure i i want you to know something i have been baffled by this word for days now and now i'm understanding anarchist of course I guess what it is is that I can I thought an anarchist is a person. Sure. But the zone is not. I guess you're right.

It's an anarchist jurisdiction. In my mind, it was like an anarchist is a person. It's an anarchist location. But I guess that doesn't make any sense. Did you say that to anyone? Perhaps someone you live with? You never said it out loud? We didn't talk about it. We didn't talk about it. And that's why we're here. Okay. He like brings up the news. I'm like, about it. And that's why we're here. Okay.

He like brings up the news. I'm like, I get enough of this at work, you know? But I'm buff. Yeah. Not knowing how to pronounce the word anarchist has really put a damper on getting through this two sentences about this issue. Yes. Two points. One, you can't call a city that has a communal bike program sponsored by a bank anarchist.

That's the opposite of anarchist. And this is incredibly small. But here's one bit of anarchy in New York City that I do think is solvable. And it is this. At Columbus Circle, half the subway stops are local and half of them are express. I don't really understand that. I don't want the one. I want the two all right uh-huh trying to get i don't understand why the ace is an express stop

but the two and the three they don't stop they don't stop at columbus circle so you just don't understand the new york subway system that's what you're no i understand it okay i'm saying that i understand how it works okay i get it yeah lifelong user what i'm saying is it should just be an express stop that's my point oh you think all the columbus circle should be an express stop i don't understand why you have to get on a local at columbus circle it's a major stop it's a major stop but isn't that like like when i lived in new york 125th street was my like home base which has both express and local. Isn't that just how it works?

No, no, no, no, no. No, it's that. No, of course. Every express stop also has local stops. What I'm saying is. I know what you're saying. Is both a local and an express. It's not just.

Some of the express trains don't stop there. I get it. And it doesn't make any sense to me, de Blasio. Not your fault, de Blasio. I'm not going to pin this on you. It's a long-time problem. Anyway, that goes out to all my over-the-side people. Yes, sure, sure. All of that back to anarchy.

I got it. Hey, quick note, quick note. Let's trim that part down. All right? That's just a note. We can leave this in about the trimming, but let's just trim some of this down. I went on too long not knowing how to pronounce a very normal word, and I dwelled on a pretty small and ultimately really kind of silly subway issue. Just fine. Pretty elite subway issue. Columbus Circle.

Who's going through Columbus Circle? They're working people on the Upper West Side, Kara. All right. I don't like that. All right. Don't divide. Don't divide this city. All right. Enough of that. All right. We put our people put their pens one leg at a time, you know, at that cafe where they shot. You've got mail. Yeah. The shop around the corner. Yeah. Tuesday was National Voter Registration Day. Apparently, 750,000 people have now registered to vote through Snapchat. It's inspiring to see that people in 2020 are using Snapchat for more than just sending each other pictures, I'm sorry, of their

hanging chats. Why? Why? Cara, don't applaud. You don't need to applaud that joke. Thank you so much for this applause. That's from Cara. Hey, Gantel. Oh, no. Oh, my applause. That's from Kara. Hey, Gensel. Oh, no. Oh, my God.

It's multiple people. Oh, yeah. Yeah. The crowd of people applauding for that. Did you write that yourself? Did you get help with that? Yep. Okay.

Yep. I'll take credit for it. Sure. Okay, good. I'm sure of all these jokes. Okay, good. Courts have ordered the Postal Service to prioritize mail-in voting to which ben gibbard responded i told you i'm registered wow just a just joke after joke just a plus just nailing

them yeah yeah upper west side and ben gibbard tells you about me i'm gonna be honest i barely understood that joke but i don't want to repeat it. So I believe, so you know, remember the Postal Service? I remember, yeah. It was Ben Gibbard. Yeah. But they had another band as well. What was the other band called? Anybody remember?

Death Cab for Cutie, of course. I knew it was Death Cab. I was going to say that sounds like a question for somebody getting sunburned, if you know what I mean. Yeah, no, I'm white, you're black, you didn't get the reference. It's a very white, very white nonsense. Yeah. Yeah. No, I honestly, I'm glad you said something because only I would know because I can see it in your expression, which doesn't come across. Mike Bloomberg has raised more than $6 million to pay the court

fines and fees of nearly 32,000 voters with felony convictions in Florida. Look, some of us were pretty harsh toward Mike Bloomberg during the presidential campaign. Not me. All right. Never said a bad word about him. And I just want to say to all those people that mock Mr. Bloomberg, shame on you. Shame on you. My bedtime story each night is Elizabeth Warren undressing that man on live television. But thank you for the money. Cara, just want to that never.

I think you're overstating. It was a kind word between colleagues and friends. Sure. We're sure. Look, I don't I wish we did not live in a system in which the outcomes of our elections can be altered by the whims of a few dozen billionaires. But until we can put a stop to that, I want to pay my respects to Overlord Bloomberg and urge him to put more money in. Trump's on television saying democracy. I don't think so. So we got to get the got to get the score up on election night. What if we let him stop and frisk all of the former incarcerated people after he pays their fines? Maybe he'll give us even more money. You get to stop and frisk them when you when you pay off the fines, Mike.

So is that not worth more money? Just a suggestion. You can cut that. No, it's no. We're just spitballing here. Suggestion. You can cut that. No, we're just spitballing here. I just, look, he's got $55 billion, according to Google. I'm saying you can eke out a nice life on 54.

I put $100 million in Florida. That's incredible. All right. It could make the difference, but we got to run up this score, man. There's this thing going on in Pennsylvania. They got to put their ballot in another thing and then thing in another thing. It's very confusing. We got to get some ads up. Mike, Kara, she's just kidding. I'm kidding. Kara, before we started, she talked about how much she liked you. Yeah, yeah. And how cool you look in a leather jacket.

She was talking about it. Yeah. She couldn't stop talking about it. I completely forgot about all those times you let your police force stop and frisk my friends. I completely forgot about it. I don't even remember it. I'm just trying to get us some money. We just need to fuck. Cara, I know. I'm just trying to get us some goddamn money. We need the money.

Thank you. Thank you, Michael. And we love Bloomberg. I'm just kidding. I'm kidding. I'm kidding. I'm kidding. It's a joke.

What's the joke? We love Bloomberg terminals. All right, moving on. In Pennsylvania, the state Supreme Court ruled that naked ballots or ballots mailed without their secrecy envelope would not be counted. A terrible ruling by genuine schmucks. So that means we have to make sure we get the word out to anyone we know in Pennsylvania. You fill out your ballot with blue or black ink. You stick

it in the secrecy envelope. Then you put that secrecy envelope in the return envelope. You need both envelopes. Then you sign and date that one. Then you make sure you have postage. Then you return it. You text everyone you know in that state

in the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania. You need both fucking envelopes we have to drill it into everybody's heads yeah you got friends in pennsylvania uh you know people there or you're there we're gonna tell everybody both fucking envelopes that's the phrase bfe both fucking envelopes cara it should be easier russian doll your yeah and vote yeah envelopes and envelopes yeah russian doll the shit out of that. They have to pay for their own stamps? It depends.

All the information says that some of them, I think, honestly depends on where you are in Pennsylvania. Jesus! Come on! How can it depend? It's one state! So, you may need postage. If you do, get a stamp on that, bad boy.

You may not if you don't. Good for you. Good for you. Oh, God. Get those ballots in early. Get them in. Pennsylvania, I adopted you. Because together we're going to undo the damage from 2016.

We can do this. All right. Just should be easier. That's it. Just should be much easier. It should be much easier. That's crazy. All right. Well, on It should be much easier. That's crazy. All right. Well, on Wednesday, when Trump was asked if he'd commit to a peaceful transition

of power after Election Day, he replied, well, we're going to have to see what happens. The bad news is that's a frightening thing for a person who controls the Justice Department to say. The good news is that he is saying this because he's afraid of losing. And I point out, and the one thing I haven't seen anybody point out. A lot of the same skills needed to mount a successful pandemic response are also the skills you need to mount a successful coup. Discipline, the ability to organize, the ability to read to the bottom of a piece of paper without getting bored and wanting to turn to the television. I had a real issue with that Atlantic doomsday article, in part because it extensively quoted

a Trump campaign legal advisor who is going to say a bunch of bullshit that isn't necessarily true because they're all liars and that's what they're trying to do. And so to me, like that is the source was crazy. But I just think like he says all kinds of shit. He said he could shoot someone on the middle of the street and not go to prison. It only is true if you let it be true. And this idea that like he's like, well, I may not accept it. It's like that's only true if we allow that.

That's not actually true. And just because he says it doesn't mean it's true. And it's the and I and like he's going to say crazy or shit between now and then. And we can't always respond with like, oh, my God, he said he was going to he said he was going to murder someone, guys. Like he'll just say whatever the fuck. Yeah. He also said the virus would go away like magic.

He says whatever he has to say. Yes. In the moment to sow chaos, to sow fear, to help himself. Yes, I feel similarly. I think we have to do two things at once and they are not contradictory, although at times they may feel contradictory. We have we have to do two things at once, and they are not contradictory, though at times they may feel contradictory. We have to take what he says seriously. And we need to know that smart people are thinking through some ugly scenarios.

We have to do that work. I'm not saying that when the president of the United States basically abandons democracy, it isn't important and worth taking note of and taking heed of, of course. But we should also remember it is our job to make sure everyone understands that he is doing this to make people afraid because he's afraid. Because he knows that if we vote and if we vote in record numbers, there's nothing he can say. There's nothing he can do. He will be removed. And so if one more person texts me that Atlanta Garfield, I'm going to take my phone, all right,

and I'm going to stick it in some melted keto ice cream because it turns out melted keto ice cream is disappointing. I haven't cracked the code. I think much like keto ice cream, what he says does sound scary. I'm not suggesting that we shouldn't be alarmed. But I just think we keep getting okey-doked by these clowns. We just keep letting it happen where they say something asinine and we just take it seriously. And I think it is worrisome, but I don't think, I think something can be worrisome and you can look at it and say on its face that's absurd. And so I'm not going to accept that this is true because he's saying it and it's still scary. But I just it's like,

guys, we got to stop letting them do this to us. Yes. Well, I also think to your point that I think is really important is that it can become self-fulfilling not only because he can't destroy our collective faith in democracy without our help. He can't. But also, A, it affords him more power over us and the process than he actually has. All right. He doesn't have that much power directly over the process. And it sends a message to a lot of people who may or may not vote right now that their vote may not matter. And we need to tell everybody our message needs to be very clear, which is we believe in democracy. We believe in making sure everybody is counted. And if we all do our part and everyone is counted, no effort by Trump to divide us or scare us or so chaos can work. And if we all do our part, we will win and he will lose. That's why he's afraid. That's what makes him weak. We have to drive. That is not just a nice thing to hear. It is a message. It is a message to make sure everyone understands that their vote will be counted.

We will vote in record numbers. We will count all the votes. We will honor the results. We will remove him. That is the plan. And there are a lot of people on Twitter who have a lot of anxiety and too few positive outlets right now. I feel the same way.

But people need to stop acting like they invented being afraid. I think that there are a lot of white people who have come to understand how it feels to be disenfranchised, a feeling that they're not entirely familiar with. Yes. And it is very frightening. I understand. I'm with you. I get it. I am feeling it too. I have come to understand that in a way I didn't before. I'm not saying that I can understand it fully, but I understand it better than I did before. But I think we owe some respect to people that have been disenfranchised and understand what it feels like to be politically powerless for a long time to not lose our shit. Yeah. To kind of stay focused. Yeah. It's a little corny, but I just keep thinking like, I look at my 89 year old grandmother and I'm like,

thinking like, I look at my 89 year old grandmother and I'm like, that was worse than this. Almost everything that was way worse than this. Like everyone in charge was worse. The, you know, what she had to deal with on a daily, that was way worse than this. And yet it's not that way anymore. And this like lack of maybe sort of historical, um, you know, just reference points for yourself of seeing what people can do and overcome. I do think that is part of it. I think it is sort of an unfamiliar concept to a lot of white people, but it's like the number of things

that just seemed worse than this. And yet people found a way to make it happen. It is why I cannot deal with the panic and losing sight of the goal. It's like you've got to keep your goddamn eyes on the prize until like if we get there and it doesn't go our way, we can despair then. We can be miserable then. But until then, tighten up, do the work, get your shit together.

Let's make an effort and see how it goes. And you can sign up for a fucking shift at VoteSaveAmericica.com. Make some calls. Close your laptop. Yes. You know, don't use Twitter for a bit. Make some calls. Do any donating that you can. Do some texting. It will feel a lot better than rumin very achievable best case scenario. It is possible. We could, on election night, it could be terrible. It could be a disaster. We can also win. Imagine winning. Take a moment. Guys, be a winner. Losers are losers. Don't be a fucking loser. He's a broken, scared, weak person who has cowed a bunch of broken, scared little politicians and captured the loyalty of a fraction of this country who decided they would rather hate other Americans than address the ways in which they feel as though they've lost dignity and purpose. I wish it weren't so. OK, but he's not. He's a TV tyrant. We are in a we are real people. Did you see the headline that he was studying Joe Biden tape of the debates? And I was like, the fact that they would use the word study to describe that man.

Yeah. He fast forward through blood sport to get to the action. They had to just put Biden tape in between taped Fox News segments. Yeah. We got to get them to focus. Just hang a chicken McNugget off a string. All right. Cara Brown, so good to see you. Thanks for doing this.

Thanks for having me. You know, got a few laughs. Eeked them out. Next time, maybe we'll get some more. Perhaps. Thanks to Cara Brown for joining us. When we come back, I'll talk to PJ Vogt about Reply All's investigation into the origins of QAnon and what it tells us about conspiracy

theories and how people consume information today hey don't go anywhere there's more of Love It or Leave It coming up and we're back he is the host of Reply All from Gimlet Media and Spotify a podcast both of my producers consistently tell me is better than this one. Please welcome PJ Vogt. I'm so sorry. That's so rude. It's not even, it just happens. It's something that they say. Thanks for having me. Thanks for coming. Thanks for being on the show. So I'm so excited to talk to you.

You did it. You figured out who Q is, you think. We think we figured out, I just want to be careful here. We think we figured out who is in control of the account. I've been trying to find the perfect analogy all week, but like, if there was one person on earth who could verify that Batman was Batman, and they could assign a new Batman at any time, and no one would ever know what had happened, that's who we think we've identified. I appreciate that caveat, but I think you figured it out. So the origins of the QAnon conspiracy theory. So tell us how you stumbled across this lead and what you learned during this investigation. I think like most people, I've just found QAnon as a phenomenon really frustrating because

it's clearly a hoax. It's a hoax that perennially, it's like, oh, this will burn itself out. This will burn itself out. And said more and more people believe it. And while I knew that the person who posted or the people who post on the account posted anonymously on 8chan, I was like, we will never know who they are unless they one day step forward and like, ah, it was me, you know, jigs up. And so I got really excited because a few weeks ago, I saw a bunch of tweets from this man named Frederick Brennan. Frederick originally created 8chan and then renounced the website, like tried to get it taken off the internet. And he was saying, as someone who understands how the website works, I believe that the person behind QAnon has made some sort of opsec mistakes that are very obvious to me. of internet troll, over time, it's almost certainly like been hijacked by the current owner of 8chan, this man named Jim Watkins and his son, Ron.

You said this, that you found this all very frustrating because it's so obviously a hoax. And one of the things you talk about is how this emerged as almost like a meme, a kind of hoax that was circulating. Like there were all of these people posting on these various fora about being an anonymous insider with secret tips. It was almost like, like cosplaying, like characters people were deciding to take on. It was just one of many like that. In following these leads, like why do you think this one version of that character took off? So I didn't know this. Like I didn't know that Dale Buran, reporter who we spoke to for this story,

he was like, yeah, yeah, in 2017 or whatever, it was almost like a bit that people on these image boards were doing where it's like, I'll pretend to be a secret White House guy. I'll pretend to be a secret CIA guy. And Q was the one that like really took on a life of its own.

I'd also never really seriously read Q's drops before, which like, I don't know if I recommend it or don't recommend it. It's lunacy, but the early Q posts, they are better bullshit than the other stuff. What I think they figured out, the person behind this, is that part of the fun on the internet is the feeling of uncovering something.

It's not just being told, look, here's a bunch of secrets. It's being told like, here's a mystery that you can solve. And like, we will build this crazy conspiracy theory together. And so what I think QAnon did right, the premise, which is so dumb, is that they are, you know, a government super spy and they want to leak this information to help the true believers take down, you know, the Democrat pedophile army or whatever. But if they were to just say their information, they'd get caught. So they have to encode it in dumb, easily solved riddles. And that way,

the deep state won't be able to stop them from leaking, but their loyal fans will like piece it together. I think part of what made it work, though, is that piecing together. In listening to the episode, and even in talking to you now, like, it remains baffling to me why this thing has gotten such a hold on people, because it is so silly on its face. It began by someone saying Hillary Clinton's about to be arrested at the airport or what have you. Like there have been so many of these different levels of prediction along the way that have never come to pass. One of the things you uncovered. Can you just tell people about the password? Oh, yeah. This is what we're dealing with here. Can you just tell people about the password?

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. This is what we're dealing with here. When you see people believe in QAnon, when you see polling that shows the word pedophile rising in the ranks to describe Democrats, know that this is the level of person that has been spreading this information. So this person is somewhat sloppy in the mechanics of this script. And one of the ways in which they are sloppy is that multiple times, either they have had their password cracked or they have they have had their password cracked, or they have just accidentally typed their password in plain text into posts on the board.

And so not only do we know that Q's first password was Matlock, we know that after that password leaked, they changed it to Matlock, but with the A replaced with an ampersand and an exclamation point at the end of it. Classic. Classic. Classic way to up the security level on a password. Does it matter that you believe you figured out at least one person that may have been in control of this account? Does it have any impact on this conspiracy theory? How is it played out in the Q community? Oh, God, dude. I'll tell you how much it doesn't fucking matter. It doesn't matter so much that when the Matlock thing happened, like when these true believers saw that this super spy was so dumb that they were typing their password into the board, they were like, oh, that wasn't a

mistake. That's meaningful. Because if you look back in history, in like the 1950s or something, there was an American ambassador named Ambassador Matlock. And that ambassador was known for having a certain relationship with Russia that was very friendly. Therefore, what Q is trying to tell us, like, I don't know if you have ever had the experience of falling for something stupid, like even in your own life. But it's like the further in you are, the higher the cost of admitting that you've made a mistake. Like if you're at the point where your family's not talking to you and all your friends are people who you've met online who also believe in this, it's like people's investment in this is really deep. A quote that we didn't put in the story, but I found really meaningful was Mike Rothschild,

who's like another guy who studies QAnon stuff. He said that he thinks of QAnon as like the heroine of conspiracy theories, by which he meant it's no one's first drug. You get into like 9-11 truth or stuff or like Clinton body count stuff and you like you rock around in that world for a while and Q's like your last stop on the train. And so by the time people are ready to believe this, they're not at a point where you're like, wait, but here's some simple facts that might disabuse you of this. Like they are in. So in exploring Q, but also in, I think, some of your other deeper looks at the way technology is influencing how people gather information, hear information now, what do you think has made people susceptible in this environment to conspiracy theories like this? As you say, this is the last stop, not the first stop on a train. What do you think has led so many people to be seeking out this kind of information, this kind of worldview?

One way to think about it, and the way we tried to put this story together was to do almost like an epidemiology of bullshit. Yeah. Not what's in people's hearts that makes them want to believe it, but what is the media environment that spreads it? And so in this case, one way you can think about it is just you have 8chan, a place for noxious but mostly young internet trolls. And there is a media story about how the lie goes from 8chan to like your boomer uncle on Facebook, which is like it starts on 8chan.

They very intentionally want to spread it. They go on InfoWars, but they also go on Reddit and on YouTube and they start creating these huge channels. And those platforms don't move fast enough to shut it down. Like now, like even researching the story, it was hard to find some of the early Q stuff because the platforms have kind of caught up. If they would have a firmer moderation hand on this, it stops it. The larger thing, I don't know. I've never believed in a conspiracy theory. I think in some ways this does just take all the anti-Clinton sort of Republican vast conspiracy stuff that started years ago. It's almost like that fervor and anger that preexisted.

I think it actually builds on that. Yeah. That was one of the things I sort of came to believe in the reporting is that weirdly Hillary Clinton being central to this is important to the power of it in a way that before I'd looked into it, I didn't really understand. I do think, you know, we spend a lot of time, I think, correctly talking about the ways in which Facebook has radicalized baby boomers, a lot of other people too, not just to pick on the boomers, though, you know, I will. But I think we don't spend enough time thinking about how people radicalize Facebook, like what has led a certain group of, in this case, older people to want information that is satisfying in this way, that confirms their prejud of, in this case, older people to want information that is satisfying in this way, that confirms their prejudices, confirms their biases, makes the world easy and digestible.

And maybe that's always been there. Of course, it has been. But like something has changed that has led so many people to seek confirming information, whether it's Fox News or all the way down the rabbit hole, conspiracy theories like this. Something has definitely changed. There are smarter people than me with bigger ideas about that. The only moment where I felt like a glimmer of the emotional pull that drives people to do this was like, do you remember post Trump election, the time for some game theory thread? Wow. Wow. Yes, I have not thought about that in a long time. Wow. That's what a what a running roughshod over everything was actually a complicated 5D chess game by Democrats. And like, I retweeted that thread. I unretweeted it

a few hours later and did not acknowledge that I did. But I think it wasn't even game theory. No, it wasn't. I took a theory. I am embarrassed. There was no equilibrium. No prisoners had dilemmas. No, no, not a one. I think it's like people, when people are afraid, they believe things, which is not a particularly deep thought. I don't know how you fix this. Like there's moments where I really think I feel about the people in my parents' generation, the way they felt about like kids watching rated R movies or something.

I'm like, oh, you need better computer literacy? But that feels so small relative to the size of the problem. Yeah, it really does. I know. I should have answers. No, you don't need to have. Nobody has answers. I think we're all grappling with this. Part of this is we do need to put the responsibility back onto the table. I think we're all looking around for answers when, of course, the answer is staring us in the face.

You know, I saw Sheryl Sandberg gave an interview. We said, well, look at all the good we've done to help organize movements. But like no other business is allowed to say, look at the good we do to counteract the bad we do. Like if you had a supermarket where 10 percent of the food in the supermarket was poison, they wouldn't be able to say, but look at all the healthy breads. Oh my God, no. Look at all the delicious and wonderful breads we've offered to people.

No, but I mean, honestly, yeah. And I think if you look at the last 50 years, the thing that changed was the internet. You know, like it's not like earlier generations were less credulous or less like wanted to believe in things that were completely bonkers. I think a lot of their responsibility is with the tech companies.

I also think there is something in our country where, I don't know, we're a bunch of weirdos who believe weird shit. And this feels like the most toxic thing that a bunch of people have decided to believe in a while. But when I was talking to Mike Rothschild for the story, I was like, yeah, but it's pretty clear who's behind this. The fact that it's pretty clear how they do it. The fact that they've made highly specific claims that have not been borne out.

Like at some point, doesn't it start to matter? Like doesn't start to pile up? And he was like, L. Ron Hubbard said that he would never die. And then he died. And now there's Scientology. Like, I don't know. We are a weird country that believes weird things.

And this is one of the weirder ones. PJ, we'll leave it there. Sorry, I don't believe it. I'm trying. I'm trying. I can't think of a higher place to end on it. It's a fascinating episode. I actually really recommend everybody listen to the most recent episode of reply all to hear this story. But everybody should subscribe to reply all because an incredible podcast. You will not regret it. PJ vote, thank you so much. Thanks for having me. Thanks to PJ Vogt for joining us. When we come back, I'll talk to Puneet Chima from the NAACP. Don't go anywhere. This is Love It or Leave It, and there's more on the way. And we're back. She is the manager of the policing reform campaign at the NAACP Legal

Defense and Education Fund. Please welcome Puneet Chima. Thanks for being here. My pleasure. Thanks for having me. So I want to talk to you about the news regarding Breonna Taylor. Only one of the three officers was indicted and not for the murder, but for wanton endangerment because firing into the building put neighbors at risk. What message did you take from these charges? So the grand jury's decision is incredibly painful to process. And especially thinking of Breonna Taylor's family, her loved ones, the Louisville activists and people all over the country who've been fighting for justice for victims of police violence and fighting so hard this summer through a pandemic, showing up repeatedly to make their voices heard.

You know, Breonna Taylor was 26 years old. She was young and hardworking and EMT. And my heart goes out to her family. I cannot imagine the pain of losing my child to police violence. Understandably, there's been a lot of focus on the indictments of only Officer Hankinson for wanton endangerment for his shooting into neighboring apartments. We have called for the release of the grand jury transcripts and evidence that was used in the grand jury

so the public can evaluate how the case was presented to the grand jury. And the governor of Kentucky has also asked the attorney general to post online all information, evidence, and facts that he can release without impacting the indictment. And the public deserves this information to see whether the presentation of the case to the grand jury was fair. There is precedent for this. When the grand jury in St. Louis County decided not to indict Darren Wilson, the officer who killed Michael Brown in Ferguson, the county prosecuting attorney

released the transcripts and other documents in the spirit of transparency. So we call on the Kentucky attorney general to do the same. We see a national protest movement in response to the killing of George Floyd, the killing of Breonna Taylor, many others. We are also in a presidential campaign. What does the next administration need to do to ensure that we have better police accountability nationally? What kind of reform can actually happen nationally?

And what do you make of the proposals that the Biden campaign has put forward on police and criminal justice issues? Let's take a step back and look at the mechanisms that exist right now for police accountability. So first, there are the criminal indictments and criminal cases. There are a lot of reasons why it's hard to indict an agent of the law, a police officer. Officers have relationships with the other officers that investigate them, with the prosecutors who rely on their statements. There's an inherent legitimacy or credibility for these involved investigators in the word of the officer that they're investigating. But even with investigations done by outside agencies,

there still might not be an indictment. And sometimes the facts are just hard to establish. There isn't always video footage available. For some members of juries as well, police officers still carry some inherent legitimacy because of their role. And the federal standards in law too are also just hard to meet. You have to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that they acted willfully to deprive someone of their civil rights. And if the officer feared for their life, a subjective standard, then that's a legitimate defense. These are incredibly hard standards to meet for criminal accountability. Families can bring civil suits that can lead to damages, which don't bring back a loved one, but it's something. And sometimes in negotiations, like Breonna Taylor's family did, they can also get injunctive relief and some structural reforms.

There are also challenges in civil litigation, like qualified immunity, which makes it harder to find that officers are liable. There's also a tool that was created in 1994 after another wave of unrest nationally, like what we're seeing today. And that is a pattern or practice investigation that the Civil Rights Division of the Department of Justice is authorized to do. And these used to be a really important tool for the Department of Justice. They were initially authorized after the officers who beat Rodney King were acquitted in state court. Two of them were found guilty in federal court and sentenced to prison terms. And Congress held hearings on how to address police misconduct and how to actually prevent it. And so the Civil Rights Division of the Department of Justice

has conducted more than 70 investigations of law enforcement agencies. And these investigations look at whether the entirety of the agency is systematically depriving people of their constitutional rights and other rights in federal law. And if they are, then the Department of Justice negotiates remedies to stop those violations from occurring and to prevent them from happening again. And these are comprehensive. During the Obama administration, there were 25 investigations that were opened, and that led to comprehensive consent decrees in Cleveland, Newark, New Jersey, Albuquerque, New Mexico, Seattle, New Orleans, Ferguson, Puerto Rico, Baltimore.

During the Trump administration, the section has opened one investigation and there have been no consent decrees. And we're seeing similar problems, serious problems that are department wide in Louis Louisville, in Minnesota, and Kenosha. The pattern of practice investigations, they don't solve everything. They can't prevent all misconduct, but they do create more transparent and responsive police departments. And they require departments to collect data on officer activity so that officer activity can actually be managed. And they can report about it to the public and have conversations about what needs to change moving forward. There are places where we need policy changes, but it sounds like also what you're talking about is just we need better people in these positions, that there are tools that are available that are not being used.

And if we had a Department of Justice that was interested in these problems, we could do more. Absolutely. Absolutely. The message that this department has sent from the very beginning is that it is not interested in constraining police departments and that any imposition on police departments, even if it is to protect the Chicago Police Department, the Illinois attorney general wanted to pursue a consent decree. This Department of Justice intervened and filed a statement of interest saying that that should not happen. So local control, except when it doesn't agree. So one last question. You know, we're also facing the impact of Ruth Bader Ginsburg's

death on the court. As we look to fight Trump's nomination and potentially add seats if we win in November, what are some of the threats you see of an even more conservative court, a 6-3 court, as it relates to issues around policing? So prior cases by the Supreme Court have already given us the protections that police officers have today, like qualified immunity, and also the discretion that they have in enforcing the police misconduct and excessive force and unjustified stops, that those will be disregarded in favor of an agenda that doesn't see the rights of people who are impacted by police or doesn't place significant importance in them. Benita Chima, thank you so much for your time. Thanks for talking to us about these issues. And thanks for your work at the Legal and Education Defense Fund. Of course. Take care. When we come back, we're going to play a game where we quiz some listeners about some recent polling about the most persuasive arguments for Joe Biden.

Hey, don't go anywhere. There's more of Love It or Leave It coming up. And we're back. If you're listening to this podcast, chances are you know who you're going to vote for. You've known for a while. But there are a lot of people out there, real, genuine people, who do not know how they're going to vote. So we joined at Crooked with Change Research to poll over 3,000 new or infrequent voters in the six closest battleground states. Arizona, Florida, Michigan, North Carolina,

Pennsylvania, and Wisconsin. This poll found a lot of interesting things, including what messages are breaking through and what these low information voters are getting out of the current debate. And we want to quiz two politically obsessed, love it or leave it listeners, okay? In a game we're calling Polar Coaster.

Okay, let's be really cool about this and just try to understand how to reach these possible voters and not bring all of our baggage to it because we've been sucked into politics for years and we can't understand not knowing at this point, but it's up to us to be open

and figure it out. Edition. So, here to join us, we have Colby. Hi, Colby. Hello. And we have Samantha. Hi, Samantha.

Hi. Samantha, where in the country are you right now? I am in New York. Terrific. What state have you adopted? I have adopted Pennsylvania. Nice. Colby. Yes. Where are you right now? Denver. Denver. And what state have you adopted? Wisconsin. Nice. Nice. Are you both ready to play the game? Here's how it works. I will ask a series of questions and you will each

have to guess answers. That sort of goes without saying. One of you will win and one of you will lose. For the questions that are in the style of family feud questions, you will each guess until someone guesses the top answer. We'll alternate. For everything else, it's pretty self-explanatory. Are you ready? Yes. Okay. Question one. Out of 1,046 respondents, what were the top four most common reasons people are voting for Donald Trump this November? I will start with you, Samantha. They're Republicans. No.

Colby? Abortion. No. Samantha? They know him already. Nope. What are some of the reasons people gave for why they're voting for Donald Trump? Religion. Nope. Gosh. Come on, Samantha, you got this. What are some reasons people want

Donald Trump to be president? Guns. Guns. No, not guns, but good thinking. Law and order. Number two was law and order. Number two was law and order. Number two. But, Samantha, I'm going to give you one chance to go for the number one reason people gave for voting for Donald Trump. Economy. That was it. You got it.

Samantha, you stole and won the question and got it right on question number one. First one goes to Samantha. Question two. We asked over 2,500 respondents for one word that describes Joe Biden. What was the most common answer? Samantha, because you got the last one, I'll start with you. Old. No. Colby. Dependable. Close, but no. Samantha. Empathetic. No. Friendly. No, Samantha.

Smart? Nope. Trustworthy. Come on. Getting so warm. Getting so warm. Samantha, you're up. Honest.

You got it. You got it. You got it. Oh, but Colby, you helped. That sucks. It was a real team effort. Trustworthy, honest, close. It was a team effort. I'm giving it to both of you. Question three.

We asked the same question about Donald Trump. What was the most common answer? Colby, I'll start with you. Racist. No. Obnoxious. No. Self-obsessed. These are the most common answers you would give.

Strong. Yes. That give. Yeah. Strong. Yes. That's really depressing. It was strong. You got it. You got it. Now, out of 1,245 respondents, what were the top four most common reasons people are voting for Joe Biden this November?

These are new and infrequent voters. To get rid of Trump. You got it. Number four was get rid of Trump. You got it. Number four was get rid of Trump. Number three, he's not Trump. Number two, he is not Trump. Number one, not Trump. Now, did more people describe Donald Trump as patriotic or racist? I'm unfortunately going to go with patriotic. Colby, what do you think? I'll be hopeful and probably wrong and go racist. It was a tie. It was a tie. Bittersweet.

Question six. We surveyed undecided voters on what message they found most persuasive. What were the three most persuasive issues to get people to go from undecided to supporting Joe Biden? Coronavirus or COVID and how he'll handle it? No. The economy. The economy was the number two pro Biden message. This message was persuasive. Donald Trump says the economy is great because the stock market is up, but he wants to cut Medicare, Medicaid and Social Security to fund tax cuts for the rich. Joe Biden says a strong economy depends on a strong middle class and wants only the wealthiest 1% to pay more in taxes. That was the number two most persuasive argument.

Samantha, what do you think the number one most persuasive argument was? Environment. That was number three. The number three most, this is interesting. The number three most persuasive argument was on climate. As Americans face unprecedented wildfires, hurricanes, and floods, Donald Trump calls climate change a hoax and is making it easier for big business to pollute the air and water.

Joe Biden has a bold plan to fight climate change that will produce cleaner air, cleaner water, and 5 million new manufacturing and technology jobs. Colby, you can win the whole thing. What was the most persuasive issue, argument? It's gotta be civility. No, no, they don't give a shit. Samantha, what do you think?

Healthcare. You got it. You got it. It was healthcare. Donald Trump wants to eliminate protections for preexisting conditions and take away health insurance from millions while Joe Biden wants to give all Americans

the choice to enroll in a Medicare-like insurance plan and bring down the cost of prescription drugs. I have to say, I think you both did great. But Colby, I'm giving it to Samantha. But here's the good news in this poll. There's some bad news and there's some good news. The bad news is obviously we do see that some of these right wing messages do break through and do have an impact on undecided voters who in a lot of cases just don't like both candidates. However, one thing that was hopeful in this is that there are a lot of people out there that do just want to learn more about Joe Biden. And they are persuadable when you tell them what Joe Biden's policies will actually do on issues like climate, the economy, and health care.

So that, I think, was something reassuring. Samantha, Colby, you did such a great job. with something reassuring. Samantha, Colby, you did such a great job. Thank you for joining us. What is something you're going to do to help Democrats win in the next few days? Colby, you go first. What do you got? What are you, you making, writing texts?

You making calls? I've been text banking. I was actually having up right now where I was replying some texts on text banking. You were multitasking during this? No, I stopped to do this. And then I see that I have some messages came in, so I've got to go after this and go back to play.

And for people listening at home, I just don't think people understand that Colby has a giant head of curly hair, which I really appreciate, and some kind of a band, some kind of a headband. What am I looking at here? It's a bandana. It's a rolled-up bandana. You're in Denver. Very, very Colorado vibes.

I haven't had a haircut since February, so... I think you're doing great. Thanks. Colby, I think you're in Denver. Very, very Colorado vibes. I haven't had a haircut since February. So I think you're doing great. Thanks, Colby. I think you're doing great. I'm not going anywhere. No one's going anywhere. Samantha, what are you going to do? Same thing.

Calls and texts. Well, then, you know what? In my book, you're both winners, frankly. Colby, Samantha, thank you so much for joining us. This is great. Thanks. Appreciate it. Thanks to Colby and Samantha for joining us.

When we come back, we'll end on a high note. Don't go anywhere. This is Love It or Leave It. and there's more on the way. And we're back. Because we all need it this week, here it is. This week's high note submitted by our listeners. I love it. My high note for the week is that I got my best friend at work registered to vote.

I sent her to Vote Save America, and then she registered on there, and we just finished printing off and sending in her application. work registered to vote. I sent her to Boat Save America, and then she registered on there, and we just finished printing off and sending in her application. So yeah, I'm super excited and really proud of her. Thank you. Hi, John. This is Christy from Houston, Texas. And my high note is that my husband and I applied to be poll workers because we figured that they were really needed this year. And I just got a message saying that they had so many overwhelming poll worker applications that they are not going to be able to place everyone and that we need to be patient because we've overwhelmed their system with too many people wanting to work the polls on election day. So that was really good to hear.

Hey, Levitt. This is Jessica calling from Aurora, Illinois. My thing that gave me hope this week is my dad, who is a really prototypical old white guy boomer, voted GOP for his entire life up until 2016, is now officially a registered Democrat. And he promised me that he would phone bank for Joe. And I just followed up, and he said he hadn't yet. And then the next day he texted me that he was signed up and going through training. So he's in Wisconsin.

So that's a good sign, right? All right. Thank you. Bye. Hi, I love it. My name is Maria, and I'm from Bellingham, Washington. My high note this week is I adopted Florida a while ago, and I've been chipping away at calls and texts. And this week I shared the Adopt-A-State website with a co-worker.

And I don't have a very activated network of friends and family, but she sent a link out to 15 of her friends and family, and they all signed up. And I just was so happy. It was really encouraging and gave me hope, and I've been calling and texting every day since. Anyway, thanks for everything you're doing, and keep it up, inspiring us and

have a great week. Thanks, everybody who submitted a high note this week. If you want to leave us a message about something that gave you hope, you can call us at 424-341-4193. There are 38 days until the election. Sign up for Vote Save America right now to elect Joe Biden and Kamala Harris, hold the House, win the Senate and elect Democrats up and down the ballot. Thank you to Cara Brown, PJ Vogt, Puneet Chima, and everyone who called in. Thank you to everyone out there volunteering and calling and texting and donating and spending every waking moment trying to win this election. Thank you to the campaign staffers.

There are 38 days left, so have a great weekend, and let's go win this fucking thing. Love It or Leave It is a Crooked Media production. It is written and produced by me, John Lovett, Elisa Gutierrez, Lee Eisenberg, our head writer, and the person whose gender reveal party started the fire, Travis Helwig. Jocelyn Kaufman, Pallavi Gunalan, and Peter Miller are the writers.

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