Lovett or Leave It - Wartime Meteorologists

Episode Date: July 3, 2021

The Trump Org. gets indicted, the Supreme Court limits voting rights, New York can’t count ballots, and one of People’s sexiest men alive, Donald Rumsfeld, passes away. Comedian George Civeris joins to break down the week’s news and reporter Eric Holthaus talks about unprecedented heatwaves and what makes tackling climate change possible. Plus a game on presidential rankings and high notes.For a closed-captioned version of this episode, please visit crooked.com/lovettorleaveit. For a transcript of this episode, please email [e-mail] and include the name of the podcast.

Welcome to Love It or Leave It, out of the closets, into the streets. Who knows what we're going to have to do to save our voting rights. We're going to have to do to save our voting rights. At least I know I'll be laughing my ass off with John and gas tonight. We got the Senate, the House and the president. But it's still going to be a fight. But not even Mitch McConnell and his fucking middle buster are going to wreck my time, all right. Outro Music That amazing song. I really loved it.

It was by Andrew Dwiggins. Andrew, thank you so much. If you have an Out of the Closets, Into the Streets theme song for Love It or Leave It, email it to us at leaveit at crooked.com. Leave it at crooked.com. Before we get to the show, if you haven't already, please check out Edith, our new scripted comedy starring Rosamund Pike. Edith explores the untold story of America's secret first female president, Edith Wilson, the first lady to Woodrow Wilson.

In this new episode, a decades-, the first lady to Woodrow Wilson. In this new episode, a decades-old sex scandal emerges to the surface and Edith is left with no choice but to meet her husband's former lover face-to-face. We're so proud of Edith. Obviously, Travis, who was the head writer on this show, created with Gonzalo Cordova. The cast is incredible.

The writing is incredible. It's actually rising up the podcast charts because so many people are talking about how much they love it and getting their friends to listen. So check out Edith. New episodes of Edith are released every Thursday and the first three are out now.

Follow on Spotify, Apple Podcast, or wherever you listen. Also on this week's episode of Keep It, actor, dancer, and choreographer, Nico, a nonstop spy. Nico has been on all of our favorite shows from P-Valley to Shameless, so you won't want to miss this one. New episodes of Keep It drop every Wednesday. Listen for free wherever you get your podcasts.

On the show this week, reporter and meteorologist Eric Holdhouse agrees that it's really fucking hot out. And we celebrate America's birthday by celebrating its presidents. But first, he is a writer, comedian, and editor of the reincarnated Gawker. But first, he is a writer, comedian, and editor of the reincarnated Gawker. Back from the dead like an arm from underneath the ground, reaching up to grab the ankle of like Peter Thiel, I guess. I don't know, whoever. Please welcome George sent a series of unhinged emails to your producers because at first I thought I wasn't allowed to talk about Gawker. And then my bosses were like, no, we want as much press as possible. Talk about it. So then I said that I sent a follow up. I was like, ignore the email where I ask John not to ask me about Gawker.

Wait, so Gawker is coming back. Yeah, it's happening. And I'm going and I'm taking a break from being a gay stand-up comedian and podcaster to edit a blog. That's interesting. That's interesting. It is, yeah, truly. I do think there were many valid criticisms of Gawker, but what a missing voice. Sure.

And more so in recent years. It's been absent. I can't decide if, and I agree. I mean, I was a huge fan of the old Gawker and I'm very excited to be part of this. There is a part of me that's like, is it a missing voice or is it that now everyone talks like Gawker and literally every single person on the internet actually tweets as though they are writing for Gawker? Was the old Gawker so influential that now it's like an awkward time to bring it back? I hope not.

So I think two things have happened. I think on the one hand, yeah, like Gawker voice became internet voice, right? But it's an imitation. I think Gawker at its worst was just that voice and just some of that meanness directed, not always at the best places or the best people. directed not always at the best places or the best people at its best it was that voice applied with like real intelligence and incisiveness as criticism right of hypocrisy of powerful interests and i think that aspect of it is kind of missing it's like yeah it's the style without the substance of it if that makes sense totally totally i i. And it's also like, I mean, one thing that our new editor in chief, Leah Finnegan, says a lot, which is even simpler than that is just that very few publications are funny anymore. Like the overarching like tone of even, you know,

fun blogs and fun culture websites is not really humor. It's like either self-righteous posturing or on the other side of things, like really serious stuff or like trying to pass kind of like very simple observations as like incredibly incisive critique. That has, I mean, as a comedian, that has like helped me be like,

okay, the goal is to be funny. And then like, obviously as with comedy, you know, it's always better to punch up than punch down and so if we can try to do that in the gawker voice i'll be happy yeah and i do think um there was that great essay by tom skoka on smarm on smarm that i think was on gawker right yes yeah i mean that's like truly one of my favorite essays of all time yeah the essay which everybody should read is basically saying that there was all this criticism of kind of snarky internet tone, but snark is the weapon we employ against smarm. And you know what? Smarm has been on a fucking tear.

Smarm right now is winning. It is winning everywhere. It is winning on the left. And so there is a need for a rear guard action by snark to come back from behind. Yeah, it's almost like we've gone full circle and like the people that are were the snarky people. There's now smarmy snark. It's like predictable and like stupid snark that isn't correct. Like it's not what Tom Skoko was talking about. And so I don't even know what the solution is to that.

It's funny. Like I'm actually now looking at my bookshelf and like this other book called On Bullshit by I don't know if it's Henry or Harry Frankfurt. I can't see because I'm not wearing my glasses, but it's like a book about by a philosopher. I remember that book. It was a huge moment for me reading that because essentially, and I'm butchering this,

but it describes bullshit as like the point of like an utterance is not even trying to convince someone of something. Like it's not about the substance of what you're saying. It's about a general kind of affect. That is what all political and cultural communication is right now. In on bullshit, it's that in many ways, bullshit is worse than a lie, because at least the lie respects the idea of truth, right? That the lie recognizes it's trying to get one over on you. Yeah. In a way that bullshit isn't.

And there was a reporter who I think made this observation whose name is escaping me right now. I can't remember who made it. Put it in the comments. There are no comments. That there was this like category error in 2016,

which is Hillary Clinton was sorted as a liar and Donald Trump was sorted as a bullshitter. But actually Donald Trump was a world historic liar is Hillary Clinton was sorted as a liar and Donald Trump was sorted as a bullshitter. But actually, Donald Trump was a world historic liar. And Hillary Clinton was doing kind of quotidian political bullshit. Right.

At times, at times, no more so or less so than any other successful politician would. Yeah. Well, that's also like this lack of perspective almost where like, yes, bullshit is everywhere. But that can't be the end of your argument. Because yes, everything is bullshit to some extent. I mean, I am partly bullshitting you right now, because I'm pretending to know more than I do. You know, like, it's like, yeah, that's what I do for a living. Yeah. And everything is that. So I don't know, you have to pick your battles. But But yes, I mean, when you have someone like Trump, who truly just like,

destroys all rules of discourse, then yes, it doesn't matter whether you're pointing out that something is bullshit or not. Well, anyway, I'm interested. Great. I'm interested in this. I'm interested in this new one and the return of Gawker. Let's get into it. What a week. In a 6-3 decision on Thursday, the Supreme Court upheld Arizona's restrictive voting rules, which lower courts had found to be biased against minority voters. Critics of the ruling fear that this will disproportionately suppress minority votes. Meanwhile, fans of the ruling are hopeful that this will disproportionately suppress minority votes.

Right. That seems like a pretty self-explanatory one. I like that joke because Norm Macdonald talks about the platonic ideal being a joke where the setup and punchline are the same. Yes. And the more similar you can get them, the better it is. Now, that's a joke, where the setup and punchline are the same. Yes. And the more similar you can get them, the better it is. Now, that's a good example of that. I'm very happy with that.

Allen Weisselberg, the chief financial officer of the Trump Organization, surrendered. Wow. Did you hear my Long Island in there? No. It came back. I've been in New York. I've been in New York for four days, and I said officer. Allen Weisselberg, the chief financial officer of the Trump organization, surrendered to authorities on Thursday after he was indicted by a grand jury for a 15-year scheme

to avoid paying taxes. It's a good thing for Trump that tax fraud and evasion are so infrequently associated with more serious crimes. I think that like the worst kind of resistance tweets are the ones you tweet in your own heart. Yes. And there was this moment where I was like thinking about this. I was just just thinking about it. No evidence, pure speculation. Like, all right, if I was planning to indict Donald Trump for a host of crimes, what would I do? Would I telegraph that that is something that might be coming? No, you would not want to do that. You would not want to have the chaos and noise of a Trump indictment to exist before he was indicted. You kind of just want to show up at Mar-a-Lago

and knock on the door and catch them by surprise. And so I had this little part of me, this little resistance Twitter bot in my mind being like, it could happen. It was like when they were talking about the Russia investigation, and it was like, the impeachment eagle has been released. The Supreme Court has issued an indictment against Steve Baden. He'll be hung on the White House steps.

That's where my head has been going, just for fun, just because I'm a little bit broken. Sorry, I know this is the most cliche thing to say, but it is still so hard to keep track. So this specific news story, who is being indicted and for what? The Trump organization is being indicted, the corporation. And Allen Weisselberg, who is the CFO of the organization, he's not cooperative. Got it. So it seems like they are trying to turn up the heat, as it were. You know, basically, I think we're at the place where D'Onofrio is walking in and kind of tilting to the side.

Right, right, right, right. And saying, he knew! You know, that kind of a thing uh-huh they Trump's fine his and his organization is in shambles he's in Mar-a-Lago and I just want to say if you're still in line to vote stay in line stay in line if you are still in line from in New York City to vote in the mayoral primary you stay in line yes they don't know how many votes there are. They don't know how many votes there will be. No. I was thinking of like, what would I,

if Gawker had already launched, like what would my headline be today? And it's truly like, can anyone tell me what's happening with the mayoral race? Like, please submit tips. It's completely, I have no idea what's going on.

So the New York Board of Elections, they accidentally included a bunch of dummy ballots in their original count. That's right. Okay. So then they said, whoopsie doodle. Well, they released the notes app apology. They did put out a notes app apology saying that they're sorry for the election.

They're sorry about what they said about Britney in the 90s. They kind of got all of that in there. And so then they started the count again. And then today, this is we're recording this on Thursday evening. The Board of Elections said they will, and this is a quote, maybe, end quote, share results for a host of other elections tomorrow. But they're just not sure because, George, you know what they say about voting in New York. If you can suppress it here, you can suppress it. You can suppress it anywhere.

That's right. If you can suppress it here, you can suppress it anywhere. You can suppress it anywhere. That's right. Never have I felt more disempowered with my voting choices. Actually, I guess that's not true. I mean, I guess I haven't loved my choices over the past few years. But just simply no excitement in the polls. I think the energy was everyone truly just like throwing their ballot at the person collecting

them. Nobody knows what's going to happen, and nobody is sure. And anyone who is sure seems to be silly. But it does look like we went from, wow, Eric Adams dominated. What does that mean for progressivism in America? Right. To Catherine Garcia is now likely to win. And then it's like, wait, so our takes without subtlety vis-a-vis Adams were not only wrong

if Adams did win, but they are overtaken by events because he didn't win. Now we have Catherine Garcia requiring new and vastly more subtle takes, which nobody is interested in providing. I mean, there's something about the Catherine Garcia thing where it's like, maybe the New York Times endorsement is a big deal. Yeah, the Andrew Yang thing truly broke my brain because I like to think of myself as a pretty savvy media consumer. And I really do think like, at this point, I have been burned enough times since like 2012 to understand that like Twitter is not real life. And somehow they got me with Yang. Like, somehow I really was like,

this is our biggest hurdle in a way. I haven't felt that like unaware in a very long time. And it just like snuck up on me that in fact, the real challenge was Adams. And then there was just this like rush at the end to get everyone behind Maya Wiley. I have to say from the beginning, like I read that Rebecca traced her profile of Maya Wiley and I thought it was good. But even the tone of that was very much like, she's okay. You know, like she checked some boxes policy wise, but we'll see. Like, I, it was very difficult to get excited for her. And it's very funny that that she ended up being who people rallied around, you know, the Diana Morales campaign ate itself. Yes, it's probably bad for that camp. I think it's always Yes, no, definitely, definitely bad. I mean, that is a

whole other, which again, I thought there, I thought I was being the intelligent one for being like, Twitter is not real life. Diane Morales is not a serious, I don't want to say she's not a serious candidate, but I was like, she's never going to be mayor. Like she's too left wing, despite the fact that I may agree with her policies. And then I was proven wrong there because she started gaining momentum. And then the unionization thing happened. And I was like, oh no, this is not a big enough story to tank her campaign. And of course unionization thing happened. And I was like, oh, no, this is not a big enough story to tanker campaign. And of course, it did. So I think the only thing I've learned is that I truly cannot determine when Twitter is or is not real life. Well, then I wonder, too, though,

if what you end up with is a rank choice voting system. No one candidate has built a excited coalition to kind of win overall. Adams has this big support, but there's a lot of concerns from the left, the center and left about him for various reasons. The left doesn't coalesce around really any figure until late. And if you end up with someone like Catherine Garcia winning a kind of center left experienced sanitation commissioner who like wants to smoke cigarette and do org charts like that seems okay like maybe that's what rank choice voting is all about yeah i mean listen first of all the cigarette despite my i'm a former smoker i'm a nicorette user but despite i find it very charming when a politician has flaws that um kind of uh you know it's very 80s to be a smoker. And so that I find that charming. And there's also

a part of me that's like, I'm so pessimistic with New York politics. And honestly, with any local politics that I'm like, okay, with a centrist and not just that, but I truly am already nostalgic for de Blasio. You know, whatever, I went into vote and I truly was like, you know, like the first thought I had was like, maybe we should have given de Blasio a chance. Wow. The rare advocate for a third de Blasio term. Anyway, this is this is the official position of the new Gawker, by the way, is that we're actually corporate centrists. We support Catherine Garcia and we think de Blasio really got the short end of the stick. really got the short end of the stick. I will say, look, if trends are correct, and it turns out Catherine Garcia does become the next mayor or move on to the general election against adult

to become the next mayor of New York, I continue to be a one issue voter, which I still do not understand how she thinks restaurants should not have surprise inspections. That's Catherine Garcia's position. Yes, she said that in the debate. She said it in the debate. I keep bringing it up. A few people have tweeted at me saying I'm wrong, but that happens in virtually everything. Right.

But I'm still concerned about the idea of not having any surprise restaurant inspections. I'm hoping she doesn't move forward on that if she indeed does become mayor, just because human beings are people are people, and you stay on your toes when there might be a pop quiz. That's all. No, it's true. It's true.

Ever the investigative comedic reporter, I do wonder who's being tipped off, who knows about what inspection is coming where, which restaurants in which communities are targeted more than other restaurants in other communities. Absolutely. Great and important questions. Follow the numbers.

Follow the money. That's right. Follow the phone calls. Investigate. Get to the bottom of it. Make sure it's fair. Make sure it's equitable. But surprise people.

Right. That's all I'm saying. Okay. I mean, cop behavior a little bit, but I accept it for the sake of public health. I wish we didn't live in a world where you damn well know that at the inspections Friday, some nasty shit may get thrown out Thursday. All right. But that's the world we live in. It's true. It's true. They were stripping mold off the jam at Squirrel. All right. I mean, the Squirrel thing really hit me hard. I have to tell you, because that was one of my go-tos when I was in L.A. I still think it's fine. Look, I apply the squirrel rule to the Chipotle rule.

Once a place has been found out for having a terrible health code violation of some sort, get in there. Totally. And I was like, I was one of those people who was like, doesn't jam just always have, like, fresh jam has mold. That's how you know it's fresh and you just, like, take it out and then serve it. And then I kept telling that to people,

like, food people, and they kept being like, no, like, this was worse. Like that's not how much mold jam should have. I see. North Korean Supreme Leader Kim Jong-un appeared in public for the first time in about a month, having lost a surprising amount of weight. Another proof point in my theory that the only people who lost weight during the pandemic are genuine fucking sociopaths. I love a revenge body. I love a bounce back after, let's say, a stint as a dictator.

I love a reveal. I love a new era. I mean, he's giving us, you know, this is his art pop. Hot Kim Summer. That's right. And I think, you know, I say good for him. We say the new gawker says good for Kim Jong-un. Yeah, just to recap,

the new Gawker is corporate centrist in its domestic politics and pro-Kim Jong-un in its foreign politics. And so if anyone has any follow-up questions, you can reach me at george.severis at gawker.com. Really fascinating new politics over there. That's right. The revived Gawker. Oh, I mean, this is what they get for hiring a stand-up comedian to be their editor.

I mean... I'm excited for you. I'm excited for us. Oh, it's going to be great. IKEA announced this week that 10 designers had created special love seats inspired by various pride flags to celebrate pride month. Prove once and for all that no matter your gender identity or sexual orientation, love seats are too small to comfortably nap on. I was just interesting. I was like, where's that going? You know, whatever.

We've all been on the internet for many years. It's very rare that something really makes me feel insane. And this really was it for the last month. Like this was one of those things that really broke me. It really bothered me also that I went and looked at the sofas, the love seats. And it was like, wait, these aren't even, these don't even look like they can be for sale. Like this one's made of flowers. They're simply not functional. And the flower one was beautiful, but obviously not for sale. It looked like the flowers were growing out of it it looked like a pride version of a couch as if it were a monster from the last of us does that make sense yes definitely but beautiful i mean the flower one was a little annihilation starring natalie portman it was very much like they're going into the ether

whatever it was called and suddenly the couch is coming to life There was one that was more muzzy like the children's television show. There was a non-binary Snm one it was like putting lipstick on a pig like the couch itself kept being like the simplest possible couch you could think of and They just kept like sticking things on it. Like they were just writing the word oppression on the cushion I don't know I mean, maybe one of them could be a longer couch. One of them could be maybe an L shape for the bisexual one. And, you know, one side is for one gender and one side is for the other.

Yes. The bisexual love seat was, I would say, chilling. Yes. It did look kind of monstrous and quite unsettling. Not something you'd want to sit down in. It looked like if you sat, you could not get back up that it would keep you right in its bisexual grasp. Pat was talking about this on your show. Okay, we went through like criticizing corporate pride. Now it's almost hacked to criticize corporate pride. It's like, yes, everyone agrees it's silly,

but we all just have to do it for a month. And now it's just we're in the data era of corporate pride advertising. We're like, this is just a full on performance. Like, it's nonsensical. Corporations, by definition, really can't be courageous because they don't have anything to fear. Yeah, they are legal entities. Yeah, they recognize it is in their interest to stand up on behalf of LGBT people. It is true that it was nice when certain companies recognized that sooner. And I think it is a credit for that for saying, you know what, this is actually a market we need to be paying better attention to. There's some value and I think good in that. But now that everybody's doing it, it becomes almost like Super Bowl ads where they have to

kind of outdo one another to find the way to show that they're the most proud that they can be. But of course, all of that is aimed at public facing marketing. It's like we got the whole Marvel universe and like the gay character in Age of Infinity War is like a guy in a therapy session saying, I have a boyfriend. Like there's so little actual gayness. Like I said, it's reached its Dada era. Critique is futile, basically. We just know that like for the entire month of June, you're just going to be like punched in the face

with rainbow cushions from the bisexual couch. And you just have to deal with that and have to say thank you and kind of do a little bow. I guess Dumbledore is gay. J.K. Rowling, transphobic J.K. Rowling is like, Dumbledore's gay, Dumbledore's gay. And then they come out with these prequels or whatever they are, Fantastic Haunting Beasts and Where to Hunt Them, whatever it is. And then now we've got Jude Law and I don't know who the other person is, Johnny Depp maybe?

Are they gay together? I haven't kept up with the Harry Potter universe. The point, all I know is they have this opportunity to show these gay characters and apparently they're being incredibly oblique about it like barely showing it implying it hinting at it and to me like that's a great example of what like corporate pride really boils down to it's like sure we'll be pride in what we know the gays will see but for the stuff for everybody we're gonna be pretty subtle about it i do love like that the one place people truly can successfully organize is to like pressure corporate entities to like add a line saying

someone has like a mental illness in a tv show or something like it's just like if we could take the energy that people are putting into being like we need a Polly character on the OA into anything else. It would be an absolute, we'd live in a completely different world. A California couple was fined $18,000 after bulldozing at least 36 protected Joshua trees on their property in the Mojave Desert. Or to put it another way,

it cost $18,000 plus labor to clear 36 Joshua trees from your property in the Mojave Desert. Wow. You know, the articles are like, ah, they were like, they're not old, but they're like old enough and they seem contrite. They knew what they were fucking doing. That's right. Don't ask for permission.

Beg for forgiveness. They're like, I will pay a fine. They wanted those Joshua trees gone so they can build some kind of a house. Yeah. The don't ask for permission, ask for forgiveness thing started to latch onto that. It is one of the most chilling kind of like tech yeah things like one of my first jobs out of college was working for facebook and it was like that like don't ask for permission ask for forgiveness and then move fast and break things and people were like really into those two ideas and it's like

both of those are recipes for disaster like one is literally don't ask for consent. And the other one is destroy everything. Anyway, not about Joshua trees. I mean, yes. No, I'm glad that's the Facebook ethos. And you know what? They did that. And they broke a bunch of stuff. They did. And they you know what, they did move fast and break things. So mission accomplished there. And in fact, they didn't ask for permission or forgiveness. There's this book about Facebook coming out, and instead of blurbs on the back, they just put Zuckerberg apologies. And I really appreciate that, just his endless list of apologies. Former Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld, one of the architects of the Iraq war, has died. He was 88 years young. So here's to a real one. There's a joke to be made about how he's bringing democracy to hell or something. Sure. Something along those

lines. But then I thought, OK, like, who is he in hell with? And it's always fun to make a list of three people in hell. I just always enjoy doing it. I'll give you a few. Robert E. Lee, Dan White, Joan Crawford. Wow. See, it's fun. Joan Crawford.

I mean. Yeah, she's abusive. She's in hell. Fair. I still don't think she deserves to be kind of like at the cafeteria table with Donald Rumsfeld. I don't know where she sits. I don't know where the ranking is, but she's down there somewhere. No, she's down. Yeah, I understand that. I mean, I guess there's no camp exception for hell. No.

You can't be like, but I'm a camp icon. But I did it with like a really, really heavy makeup on. Right, but the gays love me. Can I go to that section? When Faye Dunaway played me, she sat at the front of the table at Pepsi. Wait, I do have something to say about Donald Rumsfeld,

which a friend of mine reminded me of, which is that do you remember or know that he was one of people's sexiest men alive in 2002? That is honestly such a fucking punch in the gut.

I did not remember that. As you say it, I remember. But that is horrible. That is horrible. It's just a good thing to keep in mind. When people are like, we live in unprecedented times, just remember Donald Rumsfeld was one of people's sexiest men alive in 2002. There was this moment where he was this darling of the media and he was like this authentic, wise, cracking bureaucrat poet. Yeah. And it was part of this like myth making that happened after

9-11, which continues to this day, this idea that like we were all united as Americans, which is a lie. We weren't united as Americans. Like unity was offered, but you had to agree to be conservatives. Americans, like unity was offered, but you had to agree to be conservatives. And it just happened to be during this period of time that a lot of people in the mainstream media and a lot of Democrats said, sure, we're in, we'll be conservatives. And that unity has caused some of the worst destruction in the history of this country. Like we are living in the wreckage of the unity that that created when we decided to unite as conservatives during that period of time. And then paint anyone who was a dissenter as like essentially a loony lefty.

Yeah. That became like a media trope too. Like whatever. Everyone knows the history of the Iraq war. I don't, I'm not an expert, but like the New York Times was on board. Everyone was on board. And it's like, if you were someone who was dissenting, you were like a crazy professor with like, a ripped blazer, like you were just like painted as this insane, I don't know, radical or something. And I do think actually, you know,

for all the harm, and all the ways in which social media is rightly mocked, there just wasn't enough of a kind of voice for the left to have in our politics that I think has changed a bit, though you kind of see parallels in that a lot of the people who were right about Iraq have been punished for being right because it was seen as being out of the mainstream when they were right before everybody admitted they were wrong. And you sort of see the same thing playing out now with climate change, which is, and I actually talked about this with Eric Holthaus, who you can hear the interview with in this show, that it's remarkable, like, what is considered the maximal position versus what is considered moderate, when the moderate view requires denying reality. Presumably, when you're denying reality, that is when you are

the radical. Right. Yes. And I think to your point about social media, like, there was a famous, like, essay in Harper's that really correctly, correctly like analyzed the hypocritical messaging of the Iraq war. There were like things and other kind of leftist, not to say that Harper's a leftist publication, but in other left leaning publications. And like if there were ways to disseminate that more broadly, like we have now with social media, maybe it would have changed public opinion more before it was too late, but I don't know. It was a more gatekeepy, I guess, environment. Robert Oppenheimer, Fatty Arbuckle, Thomas Jefferson. Wait, now I'm like, you know when you are faced with such a simple task, like naming three dead people,

and suddenly you can't think of anyone who has ever died? They're just three people in hell. That's all you have to do. Yeah. The reason I like putting Thomas Jefferson there because he's always on the list of the best presidents. There was this new list that came out of the best presidents, and there he is.

He's up there in the top 10. He's number seven this year. Sure. But like, Thomas Jefferson is 100% in hell. But it is like a controversial thing to say that Thomas Jefferson is rotting in hell. But then it's like, well, I know he wrote the Declaration of Independence, but he also enslaved children in a facility that made nails all day. Sure.

And presumably those kids are in heaven. And if those kids are in heaven, Thomas Jefferson can't be in heaven because you're not going to be in heaven with your captor. Wow. So it seems like the logic is ironclad. He has to be in hell. If heaven exists, Thomas Jefferson can't be in it. What am I missing, George? Well, you're being very sorry.

Seeing the window of you making this argument is very like podcaster owns liberal. Like you making this logical argument about how like, well, if there's good and evil and the good people are in heaven, the evil person must be in hell. That's what I think. But I agree. I mean, listen, I don't think, sorry to be

provocative, but I don't think anyone who owns slaves hopefully is in heaven. So I think it's a much broader issue. George, question for you. Yes. Do you think heaven is a place where you can keep your secrets or is it a place for people who have no secrets? Wait a minute. George Severus, thank you so much for being here. And thank you for having me. It was a real honor. George, thank you so much. That was so great. When we come back, we play a game with a listener based on a

new presidential survey that just came out ranking U.S. presidents. Hey, don't go anywhere. There's more of Love It or Leave It coming up. And we're back. The 4th of July. America's dog's least favorite day of the year, a special time a few days after Pride ends when straights realize that they can deep throat hot dogs too.

I'm sorry. We know what it means. And that's freedom. In honor of the 4th of July, we thought it would be a good time to honor the good men who've sat behind the resolute desk to make our young country the best in the world, every new presidential administration. The good folks at C-SPAN conduct a survey evaluating our president's intent qualities of leadership, public persuasion, crisis leadership, economic management, moral authority,

international relations, administrative skills, relations with Congress, vision, setting an agenda, pursued equal justice for all, and performance within the context of the times. I'm going to call that a catch-all for they own slaves. We took the data and turned it into a game. We're calling, is that an oval in your office or are you just happy to elect me? I almost said it right and we're leaving it in. Here's how it works. I'll ask you a question.

Lauren, you'll answer it. Here to play, as I said, is Lauren. Lauren, are you ready? Oh, I was born ready. Let's go. Are you familiar with the American presidents? You know, one or two. I've been here for a while.

You've been here for a while? All right. In the category of moral authority, Donald Trump is obviously rated last. Who is second to last? Oh, second to last. Nixon? No, it's James Buchanan. Oh, yeah.

Bonus. Can you guess why? Is it that he's single? No. Because he was single. It's because heanan. Oh, yeah. Bonus. Can you guess why? Is it that he's single? No. Because he was single. It's because he was gay, Lauren. Well, he's been rumored to be gay. That's not why.

That's not why he didn't have moral authority. He didn't have moral authority because he was a corrupt doof. But look, the gays, look, pride is over. We don't like to claim James Buchanan. But he was rumored to have a longstanding relationship with William King, who was a vice president in a previous administration. And one fact about James Buchanan I always like is that Andrew Jackson called William King and James Buchanan and Fancy and Miss Nancy. And that makes me laugh.

Next question. In the category of crisis leadership, who has ranked first in every survey since the year 2000? Lincoln. That's correct. The crisis was probably the Civil War. In which of the following categories is Nixon ranked highest? Moral authority, vision, administrative skills, and crisis leadership. Where among those categories is he ranked the highest? Vision? Nope. It was administrative skills. What skills are they talking about? Destroying the

tapes. Next question. Rank the following from worst to best in the category of performance in context of the times. Okay. FDR, Obama, Andrew Jackson, Reagan, Clinton. Okay, so Andrew Jackson is definitely worst. Oh, no. They gave that to Clinton. Oh, wow. It goes Clinton, Jackson.

Now rank Obama, Reagan, FDR. FDR is best. So then I'm going to go Reagan, then Obama, then FDR. They have FDR first, then Reagan, then Obama, then Jackson, then Clinton. Next question. Okay. Which president is ranked as having the best relationship with Congress? And why do I think that's the case?

Oh, no. Since you worked for Obama? Is it Obama? No. Nope. The correct answer is George Washington. Oh, God. Because there were no parties. There were only 13 states. It was super easy. That's fair. That's fair. And it was just like eight creeps. No, I can't call them creeps. I don't think. And just letters going back and forth. Yeah, just letters. One horse back. They met like once a year in Philadelphia.

Lauren, you've won the game. Yay. So proud of you. Thank you. Happy 4th of July, Lauren. Thank you so much. When we come back, my conversation with meteorologist and climate expert Eric Holdhouse. Don't go anywhere.

This is Love It or Leave It, and there's more on the way. And we're back. He is a climate journalist, meteorologist, and founder of Currently. Please welcome Eric Holthaus. Eric, good to talk to you again. Hey, yeah, thanks for having me. I wanted to talk to you. I had seen that you had launched this new weather service that was trying to make the connection between the daily experience of weather and the reality of climate change. And then when I saw these stories of what was happening in Portland and Seattle and then in the Pacific Northwest and Canada playing out and seeing how much of the coverage did not connect the weather to the climate, I really wanted to talk to you about it. And so

I wanted to start by just asking, what have you been thinking as you've been watching unprecedented heat obliterate parts of the world that had never experienced temperatures like this before? It's the same kind of thing that happened during the fires last year in California. It's just like, I hear this current of conversation of like, what's happening? Why is it getting worse? Why have we not heard anything about this? What's going to happen next? Like, is my kid safe? Like, should I go outside? How can I not die, right? Like, during this thing that has never happened before, you know, especially in this part of the world. You know, there's this one small mountain town in Canada now that reached 121 degrees yesterday. I mean,

it's like that's never been recorded pretty much anywhere in North America outside of Death Valley in the deserts in Arizona. And it's just like something flips in your brain to where it's like this shouldn't exist. And I feel kind of panic alongside the comments that I'm seeing from folks who are experiencing it firsthand. Like they're also panicking. And I just kind of want to talk about that, right? Like we want to have that conversation of what is happening? Why is it happening? What's the context for it's happening?

What's the structural change in society that needs to happen to make it stop happening, right? And how can we do that? One of the challenges has been in the past, there's obviously a difference between climate and weather, that there's a difference between the random, you know, the vicissitudes of heat waves and cold spells and climate change.

And yet this time, as with the fires, I think last year, does feel different. How do you think about that now when like there is still this caution amongst those who believe in intellectual honesty, in rigor to say, while we can't attribute it entirely to climate change, we believe climate change is a factor. How do you think about that distinction between climate and weather? Really, all weather is climate at this point. It's just at a different timescale. Even this sort of nice stretch of sunny weather

that we've been having here in the Twin Cities since the beginning of April. Like the plants that I planted on time, in theory, have all died, right? Like it's just this slow creeping thing until it becomes a in-your-face emergency panic, you know, like we've had in this places. So it's just sometimes it's more pronounced than others is kind of how I think about it is like all of these weather events from a nice day to a cloudy day to a hurricane. They're all happening in the context of an entire atmosphere that has fundamentally changed. This is an entirely new climate, especially for folks in the Pacific Northwest. Like this just hasn't happened before on any stretch of timescale that we can talk about.

You know, in the mountains in California, there are giant redwood trees, sequoias that are dying that have been there for thousands of years. This tree has survived everything in the last few millennia. And now there's a drought that's killing it. weather that has been pushed beyond the breaking point for years and years and years. And the accumulated effect of that is now changing fundamentally the places where we live and work. And that is something that shouldn't really happen on a human timescale. So it kind of takes a little bit for our brains to realize that this gradual weirdness has now flipped into a different state. You were talking about what you're trying to do with currently and how you talk about the connections between weather patterns and these larger forces in our climate and in our politics.

And I was glad to hear you talk about just helping people who take climate change very seriously and want to make a difference in addressing climate change, helping them understand what they're seeing, put their fear and their worries in context and give them the language to understand it. How do you get beyond that group of people with weather that speaks to the reality of climate change in a way to get at what you also said, which is helping people figure out how to make structural changes. I genuinely think that we don't have to get beyond those people. There's a study from a sociologist,

Erica Shenoweth at Harvard, that said that in all nonviolent revolutions of the last century, it just takes a critical mass of three and a half percent of the population to be out in the street active. You know, we've seen that with Black Lives Matter. We've seen that with the youth climate strikes. New Zealand was the first country that kind of right before the pandemic switched

over into that critical mass. And within a few months, they passed a major climate bill that forced the government to consider climate change in all aspects of public life. With these conversations, with currently, with how I speak about climate change in public, you need to sort of say, you are the person that is going to make this happen. You know, like, yes, it's a structural problem, but we are part of that structure in some ways. And we have a responsibility to get our friends and neighbors essentially out in the street and refusing to cooperate with the system as it is right now, because it's not working for the majority of us. We have this extractive

economy that is built on fossil fuels, really, and that's reflected in how we are treated as citizens. And I think that having a more ecological society that's built on relationships, that's built on reciprocity, that's built on this sort of like family type relationship where we take care of each other, it's maybe like super idealistic and aspirational. But if you look at it from the top down from like climate physics, that's what needs to happen. We need to have a non-extractive economic system in order for our planet to exist beyond the next few decades, right? Like we can mimic that in our politics and I think it will go a long ways to getting where we need to go.

And I think it will go a long ways to getting where we need to go. Tell me if this is wrong. Over the last, say, less than a decade, your view on how bad the climate crisis is has gotten more pessimistic. But your belief in a critical mass of people to change it has gotten more optimistic. Absolutely. Yeah. And I think it has gotten more optimistic. Absolutely. Yeah. And I think it's kind of weird. You know, I've been watching myself think about it.

I was like, you know, you see the science studies saying like, oh, yeah, we're screwed. We've already passed the point of trying to prevent any of this. Now it's kind of dealing with it. But I feel like that's radicalizing a lot of people at the same time of saying like, well, we've given up a chance to kind of have this slow, gradual, comfortable switch to a society that preserves all of the inequalities that I don't have to do anything particularly other than just like buy a different type of car. I think we're kind of far beyond that. And that kind of gives me a little bit of intellectual comfort to know that in some ways to say like, okay, well then let's just do it the way that it needs to be done. Right. Like I don't have to say that this is going

to be easy because it's not at this point, nothing is going to be easy really about the rest of our lives when it comes to climate, the heat waves are going to keep getting worse. The storms are going to keep getting worse. We've locked in a few decades of increasing temperatures at this point even if we were to go to zero carbon in three years from now we still have some residual heat from the atmosphere that's trapped in the oceans that will be kind of like circulating through the system for decades or centuries so that is locked in but we are at this point trying to prevent the sort of like total collapse if that makes sense like we're trying to prevent the sort of like total collapse, if that makes sense. Like we're trying to prevent places where it's already very bad.

Like occasionally, you know, there are places in Pakistan and parts of the Middle East now where the humidity and heat combined are such that you can't really walk outside certain days without a risk of dying even healthy people. It's gotten to the point where just the amount of sweat that you can produce in your body isn't enough to cool you down. And that's a major red flag to me. Yeah, no, I'd call that a red flag for sure. Right. Yeah. So the projections are like the entire southeast of the US may get there by the end of the century. Some of Southern Europe will become a desert, you know, like we may lose all the forests in California because they'll just be fires that keep going that we can't put out. Like that's the kind of stuff that we can still prevent.

It's manageable right now the way it is. And I think that we're starting to get the glimpse of how bad it really, really could be. And that is enough to, like I said, radicalize people. We've seen the dialogue change in the last three to four years, I think, since the Green New Deal became like a common parlance. Like that's the kind of scale finally of the solutions that are necessary. And we're actually talking about it, which is very optimistic to me. So you know that there's this part in The Godfather where Michael sends Robert Duvall to Vegas because he's not a wartime conciliary. Do you feel like we have enough wartime meteorologists? Do we need to radicalize the people reporting on the weather every single

day in cities across the country where tens of millions of people get their news? If you self-identify as that person, please send me an email because that's the kind of people that I want to be writing for currently. Like this is just a weird time to be alive and having relationships in this moment in history. And I think that bringing some kind of like creative energy to that is kind of how, like science is not going to work anymore at this point. Like we've tried that for 50 years and I think we have to kind of like hit people where they can relate. I mean, that's what film and music and art is about is like making people relate at a spiritual level to what's happening. And that's kind of if we need like a meteorologist, you know, strike force or something like that to go out there.

There is something fundamentally new about a whole generation growing up with this specter of destruction. On the one side, you have progressives who feel guilty, maybe all the time, about climate change, not sure what to do. And then the other side, you have this sort of revanchist movement that is rejecting climate change in order to reject those feelings. And you're right. Science is not the answer. That's a form of climate denial, right? Right. Once you embrace that fear and that anxiety and that trauma that we're experiencing, then you can kind of like grab onto it and figure out what you need to do. Because I don't think everyone has to become a climate activist.

I don't think everyone has to like eat granola and live in a hut. That's not what a healthy society looks like. It's where we can trust each other again. Also seeing how a lot of this breaks down by race, like redline neighborhoods can be up to 10 to 15 degrees hotter in heat waves. And, you know, if you're dealing with systemic racism, you can't, you don't have a whole lot of extra brain power to think about how can I put in a bike lane on my street, right? It's like, it distracts away from

living your life in a way that you can thrive. And I think that getting to that point where we can imagine that society, you know, like, like you said, like we were born in this weird moment in history, but we're also born at the exactly right time to change it. So millennials and definitely Gen Z are kind of in that inherent knowledge of like, this is my stuff to deal with now. This is my world. I didn't do very much to create it, uh, world. I didn't do very much to create it, but it is up to me. If we're down to like six years left before we tip over tipping point, by the time my kid reaches like junior high, right? He just finished kindergarten. Like that's a tangible amount of time. And I know that it's not his job to change it. Cause he's going to be learning how to do math still, right? Like he's going to be learning how to write a sentence still when this is already kind of over.

We are at a very critical moment right now in the next five to eight years, which is why some of the politics discussions are so disappointing because I feel like we have this picture of what needs to happen and then everyone's acknowledging it and just kind of saying, oh, yeah, we'll do it someday. Like it has to be now. Like I just don't understand why that urgency is not there at the higher levels. You'd think after the year we've been through that the bias towards things actually don't change very much would fall away. us towards things actually don't change very much would fall away. And the expectation that sensible lies between whatever the two poles established by the parties are would also fall when it's actually, we know the problem. There is actually a big consensus on the problem.

We know what needs to be done to address it. Those solutions are called radical when actually, of course, isn't the most radical thing a person can do. Deny reality in order to pursue solutions that will not work. That to me is the definition of radical, of extreme. You're so extreme that you won't acknowledge what needs to be done to solve the problem when the Green New Deal, when some of the big steps we need to take in the next five to the partisan one, that that becomes a place where we are debating just how much we need to invest in climate in order to kind of build our society for the future. But yeah, you're right. It's frustrating.

There is no such thing as too much right now. If we end up getting a huge amount of youth involved, full employment, healthcare, all of this stuff, like that will be just something that we get as a bonus apparently, right? Like apparently like a livable planet is just like a thing that we can get thrown in as a treat at the end, right?

And what a treat it will be. Eric Holthaus, thank you so much. Check out currently, they're launching newsletters and content in cities across the country. Eric, thank you so much. Thank you so much for having me. When we come back, we'll end on a high note. And we're back. Because we all need it this week. Here it is, the high note. Hey, love it. This is Sadie from Texas. I just wanted to call and let you know my high note of the week is this past weekend,

particularly Sunday, Beto O'Rourke had a For the People rally in Austin. Anybody who's kept up with Texas politics this past session knows the despair that I have felt over the past six months and how hard it can be to just feel so helpless about all the shit that's going on in that building. But it was so nice to see so many young people out there just rallying for voting rights, for the people around them, for the elderly, for minorities, for other students, for the disabled.

And I feel a lot of hope knowing that we're the future and that it's only going to get better from here. Thanks for everything you do. Listen to you next week. Hello, Love It and team. My name is Kathleen. I've been waiting a really long time to share this high note after crying every week listening to others. I'm from the U.S., but I've lived in Canada since

around 2013. When the pandemic hit in March 2020 and the U.S.-Canada border closed, I was really scared and unsure of when I would be able to see my family in the U.S. again. However, with my first Pfizer shot pumping through my veins, I returned home this month after over a year away from my favorite people. I'm currently staying with my vaccinated parents, who are two of my best friends. We're eating good food, drinking lovely wine, and debating over what show to watch on any one of their numerous streaming platforms, just like the good old days.

We went camping on an island in Vermont with my big sister, her hubby, and my two magnificent nieces who have matured and remained resilient throughout this shit show of a year. And I got my second shot, so I'll be considered fully vaccinated in a week or so. I feel like my cup has been refilled and the summer is looking really bright. Thank you for creating this space for us to share our big and little wins during this really fucking difficult time. Take care. Hey, love it. This is Ashley in Indiana. My high note is that I am moving in with my boyfriend this week. It's the first time I've ever lived with a partner and I'm very excited

about it, but it's a very big step in my life. My boyfriend listens to this podcast, so hopefully he hears this message and knows how excited I am for us to start the rest of our lives together. Thank you. Have a good week. Bye. Hey there, love it. This is Eric. I'm calling from Houston, Texas. My high note for the week is that I get to go to Valdez, Alaska for a theater conference where my play is being presented alongside many others. I am just so excited to go to an actual in-person theatrical event for the first time in, gosh, I don't know how long it's been. And not only that, but it's in Valdez, Alaska,

which is just one of the most beautiful places on earth. And we just get to spend a week listening to new plays, talking about new plays, and workshopping new plays. And I am just so excited. And we just get to spend a week listening to new plays, talking about new plays, and workshopping new plays. And I am just so excited. And that's my high note. I just wanted to share it with you. Have a good week. Thank you to everybody who called in. If you want to leave us a message about something that gave you hope, call us at 213-262-4427. Thank you to George Severus, Eric Holthaus, and everybody who called in. There are 493 days until the 2022 midterm elections. Have a great weekend. and Peter Miller are our writers. Our associate producer is Brian Semel. Bill Lance is our editor, and Kyle Seglin is our sound engineer.

Our theme song is written and performed by Sure Sure. Thanks to our designers, Jesse McClain and Jamie Skeel, for creating and running all of our visuals, which you can't see because this is a podcast, and to our digital producers, Narmal Konian, Milo Kim, Mia Kelman, and Matt DeGroot for filming and editing video each week so you can.