Lovett or Leave It - Who Framed Richard Nixon?

Episode Date: October 2, 2026

Trump and AI execs pinky swear, Pete Hegseth gets treasonal allergies, and Republicans Make Nixon Great Again. Then Hollywood legend Barry Diller is our Guest of the Week and Jared Goldstein is gay for the algorithm. And the rant wheel lands on myopic “biopic” pronunciations and saying no way to “color way.”Hate listening to ads? Become a Friends of the Pod subscriber for ad-free episodes of Pod Save America, Pod Save the World, Lovett or Leave It, Runaway Country, Offline with Jon Favreau, and more—plus exclusive content, including bonus episodes of Pod Save America. Subscribe now at crooked.com/friends, on Apple Podcasts, or through the Pod Save America YouTube channel.To watch this episode with subtitles, click here and turn on closed captions (CC).You can request a transcript by emailing [e-mail]. Include the podcast name, episode title, and air date. Please allow 48 hours for delivery.

Love it or live it It's love it or leave it Let's up Los Angeles To Love It or Leave It live it Live from Hollywood Hello to our viewers on MS now And to our podcast listeners At the gym or hospital

I'm John Lovett Former Obama's speechwriter And Hillary Clinton speechwriter And current host of this program Don't change the channel I have the secret formula to defeat Trump Which I'll reveal at the end of this episode But first

Let's get into it What a week On Wednesday, President Trump somehow stood perpendicular to himself. To s-i. Okay? Side, right. Side. He looks like the front half of a centaur.

He looks like a marionette that God got tired of holding up. Defense Secretary Pete Higgsat delivered this State of the Force address at Quantico on Wednesday. Let's take a look. We are no longer the woke department or the weak department. Simple translation of that. no fatties, no trannies, no beardos, no weirdos, no wimps, no radicals. Just warriors. Or as he would write it on Grindr, mask for mask.

Again, they don't want trans people in sports because they're too good. If you don't want Leah Thomas in the NCAA, it seems like you should want her in the fucking Marines. And I'd also point out, we've only fought one war since you banned the trannies and the fatties, and we're 0-1. continued Heggsav. A free press is of course important, but partisan activism that intentionally smears the troops

and the historic mission that they're undertaking is fundamentally anti-American. It's sick. It's a national betrayal. It's treason, actually. It actually isn't. Leaving aside that the coverage Hexseth is complaining about isn't smearing the troops,

but reporting on the failure. of leaders who recklessly put those troops into harm's way, even if reporters were for some reason writing, fuck the troops, boo the troops, that's not treason either. Also, you just know this is how he argued with his soon-to-be ex-wives during his divorces. Oh, I drink too much treason. Also this week, President Trump hosted nearly 20 tech leaders

for an AI summit at the White House, where they signed an AI safety agreement. It's effectively a peace accord in that AI will soon tear every one of us to pieces Here's Trump selling the deal. Is this a core that everybody signed? Is it binding in any way? I think it's morally binding, yeah. Which is troubling.

A morally binding agreement to Trump is like a no-dogs-allow sign at a Los Angeles farmer's market. On Tuesday, Trump did in fact sign an executive order renaming artificial intelligence to super-intelligence. And when a reporter asked Trump about the safety concerns raised by AI, Trump once again pivoted to the rebrand.

The leaders standing behind you I've had some very serious concerns about AI. Even after meeting with them today, you're still calling this a hoax. So why should the American people take your word over this. It's a very serious. That's why I changed your name. Okay. A hoax sounds like, you know, when you're using the former name,

but this name is now super intelligent, that's not a hoax. That's some deft political sleight of hand, which is impressive, considering his hand looks like shepherd's pie filling. Too much? I'll say this for Trump. the guy staying on message. Who should be held accountable when the AI agents committed a crime? It's not AI. It's that's the other thing.

We've changed the name officially today. For example, one would say, oh shit, a superintelligence trained all the water from Lake America. Meanwhile, at a Maha summit on Tuesday, Health Secretary RFK Jr. said that AI can free us from medical tyranny. And if somebody tells you that a vaccine will prevent transmission and infection, oh, you need to to protect your grandmother, AI may say it actually doesn't do that. Hey man, just because all your relatives died doesn't mean ours have to. The health secretary also said this. Sam Oldman was over in our office a couple of days ago.

He said, but today it would be malpractice for a doctor to make a diagnosis or to make a prescription without at least checking AI. And he's right. If my doctor hadn't double-checked with AI, I would have never found out I was pregnant. Meanwhile, polling is consistently shown that Americans across the political divide are opposed to data centers and do not want them built in their communities that, of course, didn't stop Trump from offering this. The data centers are incredible, and by the way, I'm very good at real estate. Some of those buildings are absolutely beautiful. They're big and they're, you know,

big, strong, powerful buildings, but they're beautiful. And they add greatly into a community. Some say data centers are like nature's ballrooms. Let's take a moment to look at a few of these Data centers. Gorgeous. Move over, Florence Cathedral. Fuck, I should have had my wedding at this one. In a new variety interview, Pete Davidson said that he is lasering off most of his 200 tattoos, but not his portrait of Hillary Clinton.

Responded and exasperated Hillary Clinton, fine, but it's still over between us. And that's the only one you're keeping? asked a crestfallen Kamala Harris. The Department of Interior officially announced Bear 89, affectionately known as Backpack is the winner of the annual Fat Bear Week. Finally, a federal department that embraces fatties. When reached for comment, Backpack the Bear, Kildenate the Reporter. Fatter than ever. The Girl Scouts announced this week that its first cookies for dogs will go on sale in January.

The dog cookies, called Patch Pals, will be blueberry muffin flavored. With a second flavor, your new girlfriend's tampon fresh from the... With a second flavor, your new girlfriend's tampon fresh from the... With a second flavor, your new girlfriend's tampon fresh from the trash available next fall. And now, a story from the week that got me a bit too mad. On Thursday, the Wall Street Journal reported that the Trump DOJ is now reviewing

whether the special counsel in charge of Nixon's Watergate prosecution committed misconduct. Finally, said the innocent Richard Nixon in heaven to his best friends up there, Harriet Tubman and Anne Frank. Congressman Riley Moore is on board telling a summit at the Richard Nixon Foundation this week that the deep state was behind it all. Richard Nixon was absolutely cooed out of office and was framed. All of this was fake. All right, let's do this.

In 1973, when special prosecutor Archibald Cox learned that there was a secret recording system in the White House in which Richard Nixon had discussed the Watergate scandal, he subpoenaed those tapes. Nixon then ordered the Attorney General to fire Cox. The Attorney General refused and resigned. Then Nixon ordered the Deputy Attorney General to fire Cox. He refused and resigned. This became known as the Saturday Night Massacre. Then Nixon ordered the Solicitor General Robert Bork, Bork, to fire Cox, who finally did it. We learned after Bork's death from Bork's own memoir that in exchange for firing Cox,

Nixon promised that he would nominate Bork to fill the next Supreme Court vacancy. But Nixon never had the chance because the second special prosecutor, Leon Jawarski, took over for Cox and subpoenaed the tapes anyway. Are you with me? Of course you are. This is interesting. On those tapes, you hear Nixon actively participating in the cover-up and committing, encouraging, and having knowledge of many crimes,

including obstruction of justice, perjury, and directing the IRS to target political opponents mixed in with diatribes, where he calls Jews abrasive, aggressive, obnoxious, and insecure, which is unacceptable unless we're saying it about ourselves. And while there is no evidence on the tapes that Nixon was aware in advance of the Watergate break-ins, there are 18.5 minutes that were erased from the recordings, 18.5 minutes of a meeting with his chief of staff,

H.R. H. H.R. Haldeman, which took place three days after Nixon's so-called plumber snuck into the Democratic National Committee as part of an ongoing wiretapping operation, one of many schemes that Nixon's shambolic goons were conducting or planning, which also included breaking into the Brookings Institution, which Nixon expressly ordered on tape,

and which metastasized into an actual real plan proposed by Nixon advisor, Chuck Colson, to firebomb the Brookings Institution, which thankfully was called off for being crazy even for us. And you don't have to take my word for it, and you can learn about all of this at the Nixon Library. Haldeman was convinced, of obstruction, perjury, and conspiracy among roughly 69 people charged for their participation

in the criminal enterprise around Richard Nixon, what former White House counsel John Dean called a cancer on the presidency. And Haldeman himself said in his memoir that Nixon initiated the Watergate break-in and was part of the cover-up from the start. And look, maybe Nixon and Haldeman were fucking in those missing 18.5 minutes. I don't know, but I don't think so because that's at least 13 minutes too long. But why are people trying to rehabilitate Richard Nixon? Why is J.D. Vance saying things like this. I think that his historical legacy is enjoying a bit of a renaissance, but I think deservedly so.

As I joked with Robert backstage, if Watergate happened tomorrow, it would be like a 12-hour news story. Like, the idea that it would have taken down a presidency is crazy. And that's true, but the fact that Watergate wouldn't be a big deal now is a testament to how bad now is, not how not bad then was. Nixon appointees at the Justice Department resigned rather than follow Nixon's orders. called smoking gun tape was released as ordered unanimously by the Supreme Court on August 5th, 1974. Two days later, Barry Goldwater, a Republican senator and former presidential nominee,

told Nixon in the Oval Office there's not more than 15 senators for you. Two days later, Nixon resigned. Republicans want to rehabilitate Nixon for the same reason they want to attack Jack Smith and the prosecution of Trump after January 6. All of reality and history must bend to excuse their corruption and cowardice and embrace of a low-life crime boss who makes Richard Nixon look like Jimmy Carter. Can you believe this Trump guy asked Jimmy Carter to Richard Nixon, Harriet Tubbin, and Anne Frank, hoping they'll ask him to join, but they never do. And finally, a Texas man intentionally crashed his car into a Kroger's early on Sunday and told police that he did so because the store was closed and he had to go to the bathroom. Police say they'd never seen such a mess. Also, there were some damage from the car crash. All right, we have got a great show for you tonight. We'll be right back with Hollywood legend Barry Dillard. Hey, don't go anywhere.

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store. We'll be joined by Barry Diller in just a moment. But first, on Friday, November 6th, I am hosting a very special episode of Love It or Leave It at CrookedCon. I'll be joined by writer and scholar Tressie McMillan Cottom, along with New York City Councilmember Chiose. He's famous for coining the phrase, woke one is crazy, by the way. Then on November 7th, you can hang with me at the full all-day CrookedCon event. You can view the lineup and get tickets for both Love It and CrookedCon at CrookedCon.com. Ticket prices are going up on October 6.

So if you've been waiting, now is the time. And we're back. Please welcome to the show, a Hollywood icon, an architect of modern media, a guy who could but won't invite you on his boat. It's Barry Diller. This is true. Welcome to the show. First of all, I loved the memoir.

I was really glad to have a chance to read it. I have a question for you. Why are you on this show? I don't know. How did you get here? I'm standing back there and I'm thinking, how did I get here? Yeah, like of all, you could be anywhere on earth. You could be in San Trope.

Well, I was. And you were. Of course you were. So, by the way, there's one, in the book, you have the press release you wrote when you left Fox and parted ways with Rupert Murdoch. And he tried to get you to edit the thing down. That is the craziest fucking press release I have ever seen in my life. It's a press release about you leaving a company and you're like, as a man turning 50, life can be long, a lion in windfrey. endlessly florid. Yes.

But I, first of all, it was a big thing for me. I was 49 years old, and I was changing my life, stopping being a corporatist after 30 years or so. And I thought, I'm not going to just do the thing of XYZ did Y, O, Q. I thought, I'm going to tell a story. So I wrote a really long thing and published it. Cool. I agree. Now, you talk about in the book relying on data over.

about the problem when people rely on data over instinct and making creative decisions, that that can be a route to failure. Netflix, Amazon, these are data-driven institutions. Not only do they collect more information than was ever collected before, it also guides the way they decide what to make, what not to make, actors to hire. Are they wrong? It seems to be working for them.

Well, you know, working, I would argue, actually, that the quality of content has steadily gone downhill. Now, I'm not saying it's gone downhill because it's a bunch of data scientists playing around, but it's remarkable how little really good work. Most work today, most of the series work, Netflix work, et cetera, I'm not damning them,

but most of the work today is derivative. And it's like you saw it last year. It's like a little maybe polished up, but it's, look, all of us, I don't know, if you saw Breaking Bad or Friday Night Lights, or I could riff on on all of these great shows, I haven't seen one in a really long time. So I would say that I agree that there's a quantity, not quality problem, right? Like the odds that if you pick a show at random, it will be great, are quite low. But then I think there's a show like Pluribus, there's a show like Ritos Bay. There's some good stuff. But the general quality, while the production quality is high, the actual writing is shoddy, mostly.

Yeah. You know, Alana's, you talk about visiting this set of Popeye. And obviously, I don't think... Oh, God, you did read this book. I did read the book. And look, I don't think... I don't think that production was well served by cocaine. However, it's now almost this sort of artifact of a time when, like, I'm sorry.

Like, there are shots in that movie that could only exist because a bunch of people were on cocaine. They play with, like, I'm remembering that there's a moment in that movie, I believe, where Bluto sees red. Is this amazing if you actually pay attention to the film Popeye? Yes, of course. I wouldn't say it's Altman's one of his better works but I think it's worth watching but there's a moment in that movie

where a character sees red and the way that character sees red is they cut and then everyone is just in red clothes that is cocaine that's a beautiful thing there is not a shot in that film really that is a film

utterly fueled by Coke isn't it amazing though that now after cocaine kind of went down in popularity it now seems to be raging back? I'm really surprised by that. Yes, also, you know, look, technology has advanced, and really Adderall is the thinking man's cocaine at this point. As someone who takes it all the time, but medically.

Like this morning? Yeah, of course. We can't take it in the afternoon. But the reason I ask that is because, you know, there's a way in which Hollywood has become much more corporate and much more systematized, less experimental. but is there a happy medium between the Coke-fueled Popeye days, the head of Gulfwester hiding in his office because he thinks he's going to get killed by gangsters

and what we have now? Like, is there a medium ground? You mean the loss of personality, the loss of exhibitionism? Well, that these were... Loss of characters. And that these were companies driven by singular egos, which I think sometimes leads to surprising choices

that a corporation wouldn't make. Well, totally true. The difference is it used to be that Hollywood, so to speak, there were five or six companies that controlled it, and all they did is make movies and television. They didn't sell books. They didn't sell iPhones. They didn't do all sorts of other things. They just did that. And because they did that in their own somewhat isolation, they were able to be kind of crazy.

But now when the movie television making part is 87 steps down on the corporate ladder, what happens is that, like anything, it gets ossified by its degradation from someone who's a principal. There's another part of this that I don't have to square with that. Because at the same time, there are, like, say Netflix, right? Amazon is a complicated example. Apple's complicated. But Netflix, they exist to make shows and get people to subscribe to watch what they make. That's what they do.

And there's a lot of people... But the thing is, the difference with them is they did come to it from... And it doesn't mean it's dishonorable, but they came to it totally from technology. So because it's tech-led and tech is infused in every part of it, while they've hired people who come from the creative world, their beating heart is still a tech. card. But there's a there's a way in which I feel like there's a kind of collective convention common sense with whatever conventional wisdom that these streamers have somehow kind of undermined what Hollywood does. And yet you know you talk about like oh it's a good year for the box office. It's back to where it was in 2022 or something and it's just an accident.

Right. Well, and of course, but it goes from let's say nine billion to 10 billion. And then you look at what these companies are spending on production. And, And it dwarfs that, right? Like the total domestic box office is less than what, say, a Netflix and an Amazon will spend or an Apple will spend on content, which seems to me, whatever the odds of them making something great, it is good that they are investing so much in making. The thing, you know, one of the things that today particularly,

and I think tomorrow is things will become less expensive to make, is it isn't that you're spending six, I'm just talking about television, forget movies, because movies can be 100, 200, 300, but that you're spending $6, $8, $10 million an hour for production. And the production, as I say, they look great. They're going all over the world. It's shocking how many cities a series will go to

to tell its kind of dumb-ass story. And so the money is there. The money is on the screen, but the craft has deteriorated. Do you see anybody that's finding a way back to that craft that sees an opening to make better things, or is it just too hard? Well, no, I don't think it's too hard. I just think it's in the atmospherics. What's happened again is that the whole development cycle, the process of starting with an idea, writing a script, rewriting it endlessly, that that kind of linear process is just now very submerged.

It's submerged to we've got to get X, Y, and Z on the screen in the next four. 48 hours. Well, and that the, because it's such a noisy environment, right? Like you could, when there were three networks or four networks, you, you could guarantee that you have some amount of attention in what you were doing. It may flop. You had something, you had, you had something more important, which is at any one time, I mean, this is my ancient history, you had really a hundred million people all watching

a relatively little screen. and so you had the ability like most famously, let's call it Roots, which was this classic mini-series in the late 70s, that for 11 nights straight, two hours a night, 65 million people, everybody watched. And so for months, it was in the culture.

This is hard to do now. Hey, remember when you threw up lobster bisque on Eve St. Laurent? I can actually remember every step. And how happy I was. What happened in the, like, what happened right after is your, you're, you're, because the story just, you just mentioned it in passing. And it's like, well, I feel like that's a big event for, at least for you, maybe also for him. Oh, I don't think it was, I think, I mean, he was horrified.

He had a white suit. It really was lobster bis. So, you know. Were you sick? What happened, it is, you say, how you have nangled on to this little Eve story. Well, you say it in there, well, you were sort of like, and then I threw up on Eve San Loren, it's like, why?

Were you food poisoning? I didn't say, and then I, I was in France, in northern France, like, what was the city? You'll know it probably, but I forgot. And my wife and I went to this restaurant, And I really didn't like France because my French is terrible, and my wife speaks 100 languages. And so is very fluid with glam life.

And so I ordered this lobster soup, and I was really unhappy to be there. That was really the truth. I wasn't ill. I was just unhappy to be there. And then this very sophisticated group walks in, and I stood up, and it was my anger that threw up on Eve San Laurent. Wow. I didn't know about that. I didn't know that's something that could happen. Speaking of fluid, you're married to a woman, but you've also been attracted to men. That's interesting. I thought that was interesting. I mean, the first time I was interesting.

I'm more than interesting. Very interesting. Extremely interesting. Well, you've done interesting. We've done interesting. So you've talked about this. Actually, this was one of the first excerpts in the book. And I remember reading it and thinking, wow, like there have been so many assumptions about you. for such a long time. In fact, there were so many assumptions about you and your relationship that there was an example of it that was seen as sort of reminiscent of your relationship on sex in the city in which a gay man has a lavender marriage to a woman that is based in friendship. It was implied that it was based on you.

But meanwhile, in the book, you're like, excuse me, we were not just friends. How dare you? We had a lot of sex. I would not say, how dare you? that's aggressive about it. But we were in love with each other in every possible way. And no, there was no performative aspect.

But so was that... Are you saying that's not doable? No, I'm not. Absolutely not. Okay. Zero, zero questioning of... In fact, the reason I bring it up is because I was somebody that was exclusively gay. I'm gay. I'm gay.

Stop it. There you've settled. And then I, after 40, I meet someone who is trans, and all of a sudden I discover that, oh, I didn't know my sexuality as well as I thought I did. And what I felt akinship to your story is, I don't really need to figure it out because I love this person and the rest is immaterial,

who cares what the description of it is, this works. And I wonder if that's just, changed how you think about sexual orientation as someone for whom the idea of being gay was the biggest thing that scared you for most of your young life. Well, you know, at this point, age at point, I really do think it is much more fluid than that if you allow it to be fluid. I think today the culture goes very much against that. actually people do not like the idea of bisexuality. They either suspect it

or in some way as their self-identification makes them think it's somehow wrong. And I think that's, first of all, not valid. And I understand it because it's so prevalent, but it would be better, The European attitude towards this, this is really an American attitude. The European attitude is just so much different. Sexuality is really not that much discussed, not that much slotted.

There are endless, endless, endless, endless examples of men marrying women, women, marrying men who also like men and like women and back and forth, and nobody talks about it. They just do it. The French, and yet it made you sick to your stomach. Hey, don't go anywhere. There's more of Love It or Leave It coming up. Love or Leave It is brought you by Bombas.

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at ABC and you're making a movie a week. So that's a conveyor belt. And I think you would admit that not every single one was a perfect work of art? Oh, I would say every single one wasn't. And there were a few over the years really good ones. Really good ones. But then you also talk about being a perfectionist around advertising and marketing and keeping people there late until it was good and really driving people, hammering people. Yeah, we tried hard. Yeah, you tried hard. And I always find I struggle with people are working really hard, fighting to get something. from 97% to 100% may not always be worth the effort. And then you think about the people like the sort of the famous success stories where

like, no, everything has to be 100%. But in real life, sometimes you've got to move on once something's good enough because you don't want people to be discouraged. You want to do more work. How do you think about the balance between something having to be perfect and also... First of all, perfect is rare. And perfect is a surprise. How about excellent?

Usually, no, usually, usually, whatever is really good to some degree degrades in the process, to some degree. Just process makes that happen. Rarely and occasionally, that process reverses itself and makes it come out great. But that's rare. I mean, you just look at all the things that you've really, truly loved, that you've seen, television, movies, whatever. you can probably list them. It's what, 1%? Well, that's okay.

But that ain't perfect. But what I'm getting it more is how do you decide? How have you decided when? When to give up? Yes. Yeah, when do you just say, oh, fuck it, release it. Or that ad's good enough. We're going to come back tomorrow.

Oh, no, no, no, no. There are certain things you do not compromise. Okay. Because because you can, just by denial, constant denial, until you say, oh, that's really good, you can get that right. But with a movie or a television show, there's a point you're making a movie and, or at the really editing stage, let's say, or the preview and then re-editing or reshooting stage, where you say, you know, I've done enough. and it's as good. It's probably, could I spend another X, Y, Z time,

amount of money, probably, but it really wouldn't do much good. And then you get over it. Do you get over it? Of sure. Except when I see Greece. Well, I thought you think

what are you not over about Greece? I think grease is good. Oh. We don't like grease yet. You talk about Greece. I know you were surprised it was successful, but people love Greece.

Oh, everyone loves Greece. But you still think it's bad? All I see in Greece is grass that was supposed to be green, that was brown. All I see is a dance between John and Olivia twirling around where the awkwardness is so bad that it makes me sick. It's campy. It's campy. Isn't it just camp? Can we just call it camp at this point? It is that. it was that to everyone else. You thought you were making a...

No, we were trying to make a good movie. And when I saw it with audiences and they loved every second of it, I thought, well, there you go. You know, speaking of John Travolta, there is a moment where you're talking about how you were trying to harangue him into being an American jiggle-l.

Yes, yes, yes. And he doesn't want to do it, and he has all these, what you think are excuses about law, and whatever, and he just won't do it, he just won't do it. And one of the things you mentioned is that you thought he might be worried about the subtext in the movie or the kind of the homosexual themes in the movie. And also in subtext in the book, you were a person who was afraid of being outed.

There have long been rumors that John Travolta is somebody who's been afraid of being outed, but was there part of you that thought, oh, he's afraid? that people are going to think he's gay. And whether he is or he's not, it was a big enough worry, bigger worry for him than for Richard Gear. Yeah, that's probably true. I don't, you know, I was there,

and I know a lot about that. But I think he had, I really do think genuinely, John was at a very difficult time, and I think that he, for a myriad of reasons, he didn't want to do it. So he used to run Paramount.

Yes. It's been in the news lately. Yeah. Any advice for David Ellison? Be presumptuous. I think the sad thing is, I mean, it's now happened to me twice. I also ran 20th century Fox, a wonderful storied movie company. It was bought by Disney and has now disappeared.

There is no such thing as Fox. It's gone. I mean, it's a relic of history. And now Paramount and Warner's. And in a few years, probably Paramount will be gone. And so I see that contraction, and it just makes me sad. Is there any hope that there's different prerogatives in a deal like this, in part, because while there's maybe there's incentives for scale to combine things at the top, right? There's still an HBO.

I don't believe in scale. I know you don't believe in scale. I read the book. Fairly, better than me. But HBO still has to have HBO, Max, and the studio has to support that. Paramount still needs to support its service. Those services must remain separate. No.

Well, they would have to, they'd lose a lot of money to have people that were subscribed to both, suddenly only subscribe to a lot. But they'll blend. Over time, they'll absolutely blend together. So you don't think there's a hope that there's a business incentive for both of those studios to keep running and make even more things? Insane. Insane. It's a hope. Impossible.

Impossible. Impossible. Impossible. I think. That's a bummer. Yeah, I think it's, I think the contraction, all in the pursuit of scale, I think it's, I think it's unfortunate, but you know, what are you going to do? I have not been able, I've been part of consolidation in my life in different areas. It is the way of things to consolidate. but I think it's I think its progress leaves a lot

it leaves a lot squeezed out of the culture. You talk about this about sort of people overvaluing scale apart being sort of ego-driven, people just want to control more and kind of have more under their roof. But, you know, there's business reasons, right, that they would say, oh, well, we can, you know, these are two companies that both have HR departments, and both have legal departments

and both have buildings with people in them that cost money and we can save that money and then maybe put more money on the street. The thing is, yeah, if you take a building down, that's fine. Who cares about the building? But until we are in the simulation, there are people in the building. There are people in the building.

And because there are people in the building, when they go, it's not that they will not go to another building, they will. But the building they were in, which had its culture and its history and its ethic is gone. And that's a loss.

That sounds so sad. It is a little sad. It is sad. Well, I mean, you know, in this place... Progress. It's, well, you know, the businesses... You were at Paramount at this golden age of... what people consider now a golden age of film

of 1970s, late mid-70s to... early 80s, right? Like, we're incredible films. Yes, yes, yes. And then people in the 90s were like, man, you had it so good at Paramount in the 1970s. That's when you made real art. And now, today, people are like, boy, in the 90s, they knew how to make movies, you know? And I'm sure a few years from now, people will say, man, they didn't know how good they had it in the 2020s.

No, you think no? That's, I'm being too optimistic. No chance. Pluribus is good. You see, severance? Severance is good? I never got severance, but that's just me. I mean, it's not to be taken by any, like I like something.

and you didn't like something. Pluribus is very good work. It's very interesting work. Hey, one thing in the book is there's always these battles between wasps and Jews in Hollywood. This is what I really wanted to ask you about, which is, you know, you talk about being at William Morris as a Vatican for Jews early in your career.

MGM is founded over 100 years ago. You go to the trades today, and what do you see? You see Ari Emanuel, insulting you. Two Jewish titans going back and forth, the same as it's been for 100 years. What is it about Jews and entertainment? Why are we, what is it about Jewish people in this business?

I don't want to give the conspiracy nuts anywhere to get purchased, but, you know, we've been running this town for 100 years. Because, first of all, by the way, Jews no longer run it. So let's get that clear. Which is a huge mistake. So they don't run out any longer. And that, you know, there's a wonderful book called an empire of their own.

But Neil Gabler wrote about actually, mostly, well, they're almost all Eastern European Jews who were first generation. They were all born in Europe. They came over in the late 19th century, in the early 20th century, they invented the movie business. And every one of them was Jewish. were five of them.

And every studio is one of their creations. So why did they do it? Is it out of their historical empathy because of circumstances, et cetera, tied to immigrant ambition? But it's certainly interesting. We still have, we still, I mean, maybe we don't run the whole town,

but we still got some sway here, don't you think? I mean, some rich people at these temples. There's a lot of money in young Kapoor these days. Yeah, well, not really from the entertainment business. I mean, if you look at the leaders of the major institutions today. Now, you've been something, you talk a lot about being in the right place at the right time. Right now, whether it's television and TV movies or the film business, Fox, and then the internet, what's the right place at this time?

Like, where do you look around and say, you know what, there are opportunities? here. There's whether it's the hedge against AI or places where the market isn't serving the audience. Where do you look about, you're talking about purely in entertainment? Entertainment or beyond. What are you looking around and saying, oh, there's, there's, there's a business here that people aren't seeing, or there's, there's a market here that isn't being reached. We're in a period, we're just beginning, where the, you know, there's so much that I would utter the word AI or super intelligence or talk about it as a total point. but sorry but we're without question entering a period of extraordinary change that is

utterly unpredictable around every corner there will be an opportunity I don't know what it is but I promise you every corner will be more opportunity than ever conceivable simply because this kind of radical change this kind of creative destruction that's going to go on over the next, probably it's begun now. I think it'll gather real steam in a couple of years. And for certainly the next period, five, seven, ten years, oh my God, to be biting at that with youth and energy and intellect is going to be a thrill. Well, that's exciting. I wish I had some of those. seem very excited

well I know it's you know the it's uh the way artificial intelligence you know you see Bill Gates talk about it and he's like yep everything it's going to be a huge problem did you read his essay yeah because I think it was I like Bill Gates very much

would you are you worried about it in the way that he's I thought what he wrote I thought it is the most balanced it is the most thoughtful it has the best plan for both getting the good out of it and protecting it. And I thought it is, I wanted to send it. We have about 95,000 employees and companies I'm engaged with. And I wanted to send it to every employee.

And so to the senior executives of three companies, I said, wouldn't it be great? And they said, you can't do that. It'll scare them all. they'll be petrified of what it's going to happen to them. You just can't do that and unselled their lives. I said their lives should be unsettled. And I kind of lost the argument, but I think everybody should read it.

Well, I feel like they're going to get the message now. You mean from this? Yeah, I mean, people do, listen, I know it looks like it's not a lot, but people do. Get more audience. It's a surprisingly popular show, Barry Diller. All right. Barry, you pioneered a new era of cinema, the era that was by creating the ABC movie of the week. which premiered in 1969 and ran for six seasons,

and every single movie had a more deranged 70s plot entitled than the last. In fact, the only thing crazier than the ABC movie of the week is every single week in the news today, which is why we're going to play a game called Movie of the Week or News of the Bleak from the Twisted Mind of Barry Diller. You know, you asked me, how did I get here? How did you get here? Now it's, how do I get out?

How do you get out? All right. What do you, go ahead. All right, here we go. You just have to decide, is this a plot line from one of your movies of the week or something that happened in the news recently? Carl. First up, a flight carrying a group of blind professionals. Seven in darkness.

Yep. It was about, this was the first movie. This was about seven people in a blind people in a... Worst movie. I mean... These are movies that should be remade right fucking out. Seven blind people have to get off a mountain from a plane crash. That's fantastic.

Okay. A giant and extremely poisonous Gaboon Viper terrorizes Orange County only for it to be revealed that the snake was a hoax. Oh, no. That's a headline. That's a headline.

It wasn't a movie. You thought it was a movie or you thought it was the headline? No, it wasn't a movie. Yes, it was not a movie. Correct. Correct. Next up, that was from the news this week. Two men win a grim trophy

winners in a surreal grave-digging contest. The headline? Correct. I'm three for three. You're three for three. You're crushing it. Yeah. You know in the...

Yeah, go on. Four elderly former Texas Rangers take down a small town crime boss. Oh, I'm sure that's a movie. It was, but the Over the Hell Gang. Oh, God. We made that movie. You did make that movie.

That's one of my favorite titles, Over the Hill Gang is great. And again... That is a remake. Dust these things off the shelf. They made Space Cowboys. Remember Space Cowboys? This is like a Space Cowboy on Earth. All right.

All right. A heart surgeon discovers a plan to traffic human organs to an aging mogul trying to live forever. I don't know. It's a movie. It was called The Man Who Wanted to Live Forever. Hey, you're an aging mogul. Do you want to live forever? You mean, do I, would I like to? You have to give me the definition of forever. And if I could go backwards in time like Benjamin Button. Oh, no, there's no backwards. We're only moving forward through space time. Then you're out. That's it. No, okay. Let's see. I'll go on for a while.

For a while. Yeah. How are you feeling? Excellent. You're still like kind of like doing deals. I'm still engaged, which is what I want to be. And I think that that for me, it's not for everybody, obviously, because some people I can want to go smell roses. And I still get to do those while I'm doing things that are active and engaging.

The distraught widow of a tech mogul falls under the sway of a deceptive jigolo. Oh, that's a movie. It's a headline. What a headline? The widow of a man who invented the online game Roblox sued a male escort claiming he manipulated her grief to the tune of $6 million. Oh, I just read that. Yes. It's real.

But also could have been a movie. It could have been one of the movies. Let's see. Let's do one more. Yeah, please. A psychologist interviews a tech expert who... Because I'm going downhill. Well, you're doing great.

No, my last few have not been good. But go on. God, that's just the effort to achieve, the effort to achieve, that drive. I'm doing one more, Barry Diller. Stop yelling at me. A psychologist interviews a tech expert who claims he has spoken to his deceased daughter. I don't care. It's a movie, Daughter of the Mind.

Daughter of the Mind I've never even heard of. Have you? You made that movie. Oh, okay. And people loved it. Yeah, right. All right. Do you remember Satan's School for Girls?

I remember the title, yes. I thought you were finished. I am. Okay, good. Barry Dill, everybody. Hey, don't go anywhere. There's more of Love It or Leave It coming up. Love or Leave It is brought to you by Sundays. We are what we eat, and so are our dogs. A long, healthy act of life starts with clean, real food nutrition every day. That's why Sundays for dogs is different. It's human-grade real food. Sunday's recipes

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You don't have to deal with the refrigerating and the defrosting of frozen foods. It's not messy. You just scoop it, but it's better than the kibble. I highly recommend that. And, you know, the dogs like it. But it definitely is, I think, healthier since we switched away from kibble. And I do think it's made a difference. Just more reliable, you know?

She just feels better. I think she just has had less issues. So make the switch to Sundays. Go right now to SundaysforDogs.com slash love it and get 50% off your first order. Or you can use code love it at checkout. That's 50% off your first order at Sundays fordogs.com. com slash love it. Sundays for dogs.com slash love it or use code love it at checkout.

And we're back. Please welcome the show. The Schumann Escape Room, Jared Goldstein. Yes. Hi. So, good to see you. Hi, good to see you. So you have a new web series out called Escape Room.

Do you like Escape Rooms? I don't. Okay. And that's why I wrote a little show about it. You don't like them? No, I love that your first guest is a billionaire media mogul, and then your second guest is like, watch my web series. We contain multitudes.

That's diversity. That is diversity. That's beautiful. You based a series on a real job you had. Yeah, yeah. I used to set up and operate escape rooms on the road. Like my touring college agent would sometimes send me to schools to do stand-up and sometimes send me to set up and operate escape rooms.

Boy, that agent's like, that's right on the edge of not being the business, I think. But here's the thing. my big plan was this is the business because it's going to pay for me to get on the road and I just have to set up an operator in escape room one night and I can spread the flights out, book shows I'll do a college in Michigan. The night

before I'll do a club in Detroit. Bing, bang, boom, I'm a touring road comedian probably three years in. Did it work? It really did. Hell yeah. It really did. And you're in, you're in Dang. I'm in Dang. Dang! Dang! On Netflix. Yeah, yeah. Shows about a gay Asian guy living in New York. Yes.

It felt really pointed that the scripts were being emailed to me. I was like, is this about me? Are you making fun of me? It's kind of thing where you be insulted to be asked and to not be asked. Yeah, oh my God. Yeah, no, I'm only insulted, flattered to be asked, and it was the coolest thing ever. Do you enjoy recording your lines alone in a quiet booth?

I did. I did. Have you done voiceover work before? No. You haven't. No. You should do it. No.

No. No. You have a great voice. I have a great voice. I've got, yeah, yeah. It's cool. It's different. I have a great voice. I'm in podcasting. It's got to be something. Yeah, there you go. You know? Yeah, you do add copy. Yeah, that's right. How are the table reads? They were great. They were so great because it's so hard to come by a job in this town. And it's nice to be asked to go to a building, to go to Tipmouse, to be invited to Tipmouse for an hour,

to sit down with a bunch of actors who you really respect and admire. And some of them are on Zoom and they're still making you laugh. And it was so cool. It was so fun. I don't think she should be allowed to be on Zoom. I think she should have to come in person. Edie Patterson made it work. Every line she had were screaming. That's cool. Yeah, it was cool.

This doesn't work over Zoom. This is what I'm doing. What you're doing? Did you do a lot of Zoom over the pandemic? Yeah, we did a lot of episodes. Yeah. It worked. Do you remember when I guest hosted when you were on Survivor?

Yep. And actually by the time you guest hosted, I was already out. And just in a rinky dink hotel in Fiji, trying to tell myself that it's cool. Yeah. It's like I locked you in the dressing room so I could go on. Yeah. Yeah. That like basically like Survivor was a negative escape room in which I was desperately trying to stay in the same room.

And instead they were like we don't, you're out. You have to leave. You have to leave. You were the first eliminated, yeah? That's right. Did you go in feeling like you were going to win and last a long time? I thought it was either first out or out to the end. Wow.

I really did. Okay, cool. And you know yourself. Yeah. That's good. Yeah. No, I also do think on the. path that I was on. It was actually a good. Me being laid to the fucking ground was good.

It was a nice, it was a nice cap. Because basically, you know, I had blown up my life. You know, I had a long-term relationship. That got blown up. I turned 40. That was a lot. And I think I decided to do my midlife crisis in one episode of Survivor. And it has a nice beginning and middle and end. And then I came back to America and I was like, that's enough for that. And then now forward. That's fantastic. Yeah. But I still want to do again. You probably, you could go back on, right? Yeah. I see that for you.

Hey, Jared, there's too much free floating discourse right now, so we need your help to clear the docket and a game we're calling gay for the algorithm. Here's how works. I'm going to ask you a question about a little piece of current pop culture and the conversation, the debate, and you will make a definitive ruling so that I never have to think about it again. You will only have 15 seconds. We're just going to fly through a bunch of them. Okay, but also, there's no rules, and if we want to talk about it more, we can.

First up, can you bring an iced coffee to a job interview? I have that bag. Oh. I have that bag, and I've never seen anyone with it, and when I saw this headline, that's all I could think. I have that bag. It's Telfar. It's beautiful. As to the question.

As to the question, I think it's case by case. I think, I think, like, you can bring an ice coffee to an interview. I cannot. Interesting. Yeah. I think, like, you are a serious person. So you can have a little fun with it. You can walk in with an ice coffee.

I think if I walk in with an ice coffee, I'm probably two minutes late. I don't have any experience. I'm telling them that in the interview. And I'm shaking a coffee. It's too much. But also, my real thought about this is if you have a strong opinion about the answer,

you're the problem. In either way. No. Just... Don't have a strong opinion. Yeah, my view, which I did, discussed on the show Tuesday at the end of the show, was only to say,

I would bring an ice coffee at your job interview. It would be a red flag. Don't hire me. You know what I mean? It's like, because it would be like, why am I bringing this ice coffee? Well, because I do the things I want to do regardless of how it looks.

That makes me a frustrating colleague. Sure. Next up. Or a chill colleague. Or chill. Would you guys say I'm frustrating or chill? Yep. Hey, people are saying Taylor Swift's new

songs are bad, and that means that this is a good. The Swifties are admitting that happiness is not good for her song. What are you, what are you feeling about the Swifties being upset about the new songs? I don't know. I actually, I saw a video today that it feels like, it feels like an interesting, it feels interesting and it feels like a relief to see that the Swifties are having, they're like defecting, you know?

Like they're, that's, that's nice. Have a little like, a mystery. The Swifties have a mystique now that they are defecting. And, you know, it's like, we don't. necessarily know what they're going to like, you know? That's interesting. It's also sort of like... They have like they have autonomy. She's happier, it seems, and how's, and maybe she has to learn, maybe a lot of her music

has been about being unhappy, and now she has to find the path to great art by being happy. And some people say, oh, if I took, people, they're artists that say, if I take an antidepressant, it'll destroy the part of me that makes beautiful art. But it's like, but then you're, you're sad, you know? Yeah. And now, you know, if you're, if you're famous for writing albums about breakups and now you're in a happy marriage. You have to find a new access point for art. I think happy people can make nice art. Although not the first line of that book, Anna Karinna would say no, because Pappy is boring. You know, I don't really know who Anna Karenina is. She's a Russian lady. I know, yeah, okay. That's all I know. Is it embarrassing to admit you haven't read a book?

I just, as someone who just admitted that I don't fully know who Anna Karenina is, there's a big space between never read a book. Oh, never read a book. Oh, yeah, sure. You gotta have, at least fake it. Has Alex Earl never read a book? She said an interview that she's never read a book. I think that can't be true. Yeah. I just don't believe that.

I just don't understand how you can get all the way to where she is without reading a book. It's a very funny thing to say. I've never read a book, maybe Dr. Seuss, but then it's like, wait, what happened? You know what I mean? It's almost hard to not have read a book even by accident. Yeah.

I mean, we are, like, doomed. I mean, I've read a book, but like, because of GPS, don't ask me how I got here or how to get home. I truly don't know. Should limited series have to return their Emmys if they come back for a second season? Because the Beast of Me with Matthew Reese won two Emmys for their limited series

only for Netflix to immediately order a second season, thereby making it unlimited. No, I think awards should be taken less seriously. So give him all the awards and then take them all back and then put him in the toilet and then hand it back to him and who cares. Yeah. You shouldn't worry about things like external validation, like awards.

That being said, I am on a TV show next year, and if anyone wants to give me an award for that, I will take it. I'll take it. It doesn't have a name yet. Oh. Yeah, it'll be on Apple. It's a comedy. You're an Apple comedy that doesn't have a name yet? Yeah. Oh, that's exciting. I know.

I'm excited. Yeah. Oh, those escape rooms you did on the road were worth it. It all led here. Yeah, fuck the escape room show. Watch that. We'll be right back. And we're back. Now it is time for that enduring podcast tradition.

Let's spin the rant wheel. Jared, we each get 60 seconds on the clock to let a rip about something that's got us good and steamed. Let's roll that beautiful wheel. It has landed on Pundit because I think that was supposed to be for Barry Diller. Okay, I have a rant about Barry Diller, and he's not here to defend himself. And sure, I'm a little scared because he's a billionaire,

but I'm going to do it anyway. I really enjoyed that audiobook. It was a beautiful performance. a lot of, it was subdued, but a lot of pathos. However, there was one thing that caught me by surprise, and I found shocking. You know the kind of movie that's about the true story of a real person? It goes through their whole life story.

What are those movies called? Wait. What did you say? Biopic. What else did somebody say? Biopic. You said biopic. What the fuck is biopic?

It's not biopic. Well, here's the thing. I assume that it is wrong. However, Barry Diller, who knows more about the business than any of us will, says Biopic in his reading. But I think you are both wrong. It is, of course, biopic, a biographical picture. It's not biopic, because that's using the bi-part as if that's the...

It's not biopic. It's a biopic. So what the fuck are we doing here? Get Barry Diller back here. I agree. I think Biopic was, like, invented, like, nine months ago. And people went crazy on it. They're loving it.

I've never, no one, I never heard it until like a year ago. I don't like that. And I don't like what people say something is aesthetic. I don't get that either. That's rant number two. 60 more seconds. 60 more seconds. Let's spin it again.

It has landed on Jared. What would you like to write about? Stop saying color way. Like you've always been saying color way. What is, don't you do that. Don't do that. You're lying to me and you're a part of a conspiracy. And I look, I get it.

You want to feel included. You want to feel a part of something. And you want to feel fabulous. You want to feel elevated. And colorway, saying colorway is one way to do that. It's one color way to do that. But just do me a favor. And if you're going to say colorway to me, just also with your hands,

hold up the number of times you've said it. And I guarantee you, you're only going to need one hand. See, this color way is white. black and brown. Or, you know, this, color, that's not really color way, but who knows?

What is colorway? Anyway, so I have nine more seconds, so I'm still upset about color way. Don't say color way. Just say color. Why are we adding words? We should be shortening words.

Thank you. I really agree on this thing about colorway. Because it's a very, it's a term of art from people that make things that come in different colors. and you're not a person that makes things in different colors,

your person that buys things. Yeah. Colorway is an interior industry term to describe, because I get why it is of value, right? Because sometimes, like, you know, there'll be a shirt that comes in blue and red and a shirt that comes in blue and green.

Yeah. And it's like, well, they're two different colors. We'll be right back. And each episode of Love and or Leave it by reading a list, my producers have assembled of all the things I did wrong and should regret from this show. One of them,

one of the things I regret is not having enough of rapport with Barry Diller to force him to stay. If you, Jared, regret anything from this evening, feel free to share during this segment. Okay. But let's see what we've got. I do not have the formula to defeat Trump. I lied. I joked about people who break the rules and bring their dogs to the farmer's market.

I bring my dog to all the places where dogs shouldn't be. I do. I'm sorry. I don't think the rules apply to my dog. Let's see Do any of the audience members regret coming here today? You're here all the time. You've never missed one.

Betsy. All right. Let's see. I suggested that Richard Nixon is best friends with Anne Frank and Harriet Tubman in heaven. But I don't regret that. I said in response to Barry Diller explaining a press release, I asked about, Cool.

Let's see. I interrupted a thoughtful conversation about the state of Hollywood to ask about when Barry threw up on YSL. Yes. But I'm glad I did. Yeah, a little energy. I used the transition speaking of fluid to go from barf to sexuality. Yes. Don't regret it.

Hey, good for you. I love myself in with Jews running Hollywood. bit of a stretch. Oh, they wrote these down and hand them to you? Oh, my God, okay. Me learning the game by the end of it. And that's our show. Thank you so much.

The Barry Diller and Jared Goldstein. There are 32 days until the midterms. We will be back next week with Cal Penn, former Congressman Adam Kinsinger, and YouTuber Michelle Corray. Love it or Leave It is a cricket media production. Our show is produced by Kendra James, Bill McGrath, Kelsey Gante, and me, John Lovett.

Our production team includes Hallie Kiefer, Sarah Lazarus, Raman Borsolino, Peter Miller, David, David, Tolls Claudia Shang, Jay Banks, Raul Calderon, Gavin Purcell, and Matt DeGroote. And our production staff is proudly unionized with the Writers Guild of America East.