LPRC - CrimeScience Episode 73 – Dr. Ben Stickle: Porch Piracy Pt 2.

Episode Date: December 17, 2021

Listen to Dr. Read Hayes, Director of the LPRC & Research Scientist at the University of Florida, and Dr. Ben Stickle, Associate Professor of Criminal Justice Administration at Middle Tennessee University, discuss the effects of porch piracy and the criminological explanations for this type of crime. The post CrimeScience Episode 73 – Dr. Ben Stickle: Porch Piracy Pt 2. appeared first on Loss Prevention Research Council.

Hi, everyone, and welcome to Crime Science. In this podcast, we explore the science of crime and the practical application of this science for loss prevention and asset protection practitioners, as well as other professionals. We would like to thank Bosch for making this episode possible. Take advantage of the advanced video capabilities offered by Bosch to help reduce your shrink risk. Integrate video recordings with point-of-s sale data for visual verification of transactions and exception reporting. Use video analytics for immediate notification of important AP related events and leverage analytics metadata for fast forensic searches for evidence and to

improve merchandising and operations. Learn more about extending your video system beyond simple surveillance in zones one through four of LPRC's zones of influence by visiting Bosch online at boschsecurity.com. Welcome everybody to another episode of Crime Science the Podcast. This is our latest in interviewing a criminologist and in this case Dr. Ben Stickle out of MTSU and this is sort of a redux here with Dr. Stickle, with Ben, and we're going to talk primarily about the last mile, right? Home delivery, porch delivery, porch piracy, porch theft, and looking at the dynamics and protective implications. What data do we have? What are some of the, is there any theory or any frameworks out there to help us explain and get better?

And almost all of our retailer members now are involved in last mile home delivery, as well as many other types of transactions. And if you'll remember too, we also had the director of loss prevention for all of Domino's on kind of of describing because those guys have been doing home delivery in some high-risk areas and at high-risk times. So, we're looking always for all different types of expertise, ideas, and so on. And of course, most importantly, expertise. So, let me introduce again Tom Meehan, my partner in crime here, if you will, on the Crime Science Podcast. my partner in crime here, if you will, on the Crime Science Podcast, Tom from Control Tech, and many years with the Home Depot, Bloomy's, and others as an APLP leader. And then, Dr. Stickle, so let me go over to you first, Ben. Let me introduce yourself. Take a couple seconds here, and then, Tom, if you're ready to queue up your first question, we'll go from you, Ben, to Tom.

Thanks, everyone. All right. Sounds good. Thank you so much for having me again. It's a delight to be here. So, yeah, so Ben Stickle, and I teach at Middle Tennessee State University in the Criminal Justice Administration Program. I've been there for a few years.

Prior to that, I actually was a police officer in Kentucky for about six years, and even prior to that, did some private security at a university and some other industrial sites. So my general background is in policing and crime prevention and those types of areas. And so when I look at a problem, I try to find sometimes some unique problems, which is what package theft is. And then I try to look at it from a prevention perspective. How can we stop the theft before it happens? What are the things that we can do to try and avoid the harm and the loss and the shrink that goes on in this area? And so package theft is actually something I've been looking at since late 2018. I had a student come into my office one day and she was talking about someone she knew that had a package stolen. And we began to discuss this

and do some researching. And it was very quickly to find out that nobody seemed to know much about it. There'd been a couple of studies on surveys that had been done, you know, early in those times, but there wasn't a whole lot about it. So I jokingly tell people I did what any self-respecting criminologist does when they can't figure out the problem. They watch YouTube videos. And so I set about watching YouTube videos of people who commit package theft, and that began to be a research study that I crafted with my student, Melody Hicks. And that kind of became a research agenda that we've been working on ever since. So that's really how I got into this whole problem. Fantastic. Tom, go over to you. Yeah, thanks, Ben. And I was looking at my notes, and I, of course, couldn't find when you were on last. So I remember the episode really well. But I think with COVID and everything that occurred, it could have been two years ago.

It could have been 10 years ago with the way everything's going, it feels. So I want to kind of just start before I get into I have a lot of questions on what changed in, you know, related to kind of the pandemic and what you're seeing, but more just a very simplistic question that I know we spoke about the last time is, but everywhere you turn, everybody has a camera now. I mean, literally, I don't know that I have been to anybody's house in the last 18 months that don't have multiple cameras. Do the cameras work? Is there any impact?

I mean, I know we talked about it, but is there anything suggesting that the cameras are working or any of the newer features with the camera that give early indication that someone's approaching? What are your thoughts on cameras? What's your study showing? So I'm going to offer my thoughts. I don't have any actual data or research at this moment to really back this up. Of course, the first study that I did was using videos. And so obviously, we didn't capture thefts that weren't on videos. So you can't use that study to say that categorically cameras don't work. But at the same token, I think part of what you just said, cameras are becoming ubiquitous. They seem to be on every street corner, on every house. And of course, everyone seems to have one

in their pocket. There's hundreds of them in places of high gatherings, such as stores and malls and universities. And so I think the idea that we are under some form of surveillance almost at all times has just become kind of commonplace. And so I think we're getting kind of used to that. And I don't know that they had the same impact currently that they might have had, say, 10 years ago when it was a little more unusual to see a camera. And so, you know, when you think about package theft, again, 10 years ago when it was a little more unusual to see a camera. And so, you know, when you think about package theft, again, it's becoming pretty common to have a camera. A couple of things I did note from the study that we did is very few people, in fact, almost none, made any

attempt to hide their face when they stole. And I did think that was very interesting. I was expecting to see that was, you know, a data point that we were looking for. Did people run up real quick and did they try to hide? Did they cover their face? Were they wearing a hoodie? And only in a few cases, and I mean like single digits, did anyone actually try to do that? In fact, a lot of people would walk up, look square at the camera, bend over, pick up the package and just run away. And so they didn't seem to have a lot of impact on the behavior of people that I've done the research on. But again, I'm using video, so that's kind of biased. At the same token, I do think there is some interesting technology coming around with some doorbell cameras that have some level of AI that seem to either give a preemptive warning when someone's approaching the door. And so I think this

has the potential to increase, you know, the guardianship that we would think of if the camera recognizes me when someone runs to the door and has some type of an alert. Maybe that will make someone think, well, maybe somebody's actively watching me rather than it being a passive camera device. So I think there is the potential for cameras to really increase, but I think we have a little bit further to go on that. So I found my notes. So it was January, at the end of January in 2020, so right before kind of the world shut down. And I guess this is kind of a dual part question, but I'd like your opinion, or if you've done studies. One of the questions is, since we

last spoke, really, there has been a significant increase. I mean, I think we went from about 10% to 35% online sales. So what have you seen related to COVID-19? And then a layer of the controversial piece on here with the current state, And I know that you have our ex-law enforcement, the current state of law enforcement and all of the decriminalization. Are we going the wrong direction, I guess, is the question. Has COVID really made it worse? And now, is it becoming a crime that police are not going to investigate? Kind of a two-part question there. What's the COVID impact and what's the law enforcement climate impact? Sure. Let me start with the COVID impact. I like to tell people all the time,

because again, I'm interested in solving this crime rather than just simply researching it. And so I tell people, whether it's the news media or companies or anyone I talk to, that package theft really comes down to a crime of opportunity. If the package isn't there, it's clearly not going to be stolen. If you can't see that the package is there, then it's not going to be stolen very likely. So opportunity structure is absolutely vital when we consider this crime. So then you consider, well, what happened during the pandemic, right? We saw a huge increase in shopping in home delivery. And so therefore, just a huge increased volume of packages at the front porch. Now, what's a little bit peculiar in one way, if you think about it, and another way not, one would think, well, many of us, especially during the start of the pandemic, when there is some studies to show that package stuff just skyrocketed in the first four months of the pandemic, you would think, well, we're home more, so we should be able to secure our packages more easily.

And what I found from personal experience and with talking with others is that my routine activities that I had every day were interrupted. So prior to the pandemic, I might go to work. I would come home in the afternoon. My routine would be to walk to the mailbox and then come in the front door and pick up any packages. Well, what I found during the pandemic was that was completely disoriented. And so I, even as aware as I am of this issue, would be notified that a package was at the front door, but I was maybe in the room on a video chat, or my children were in school, or my wife was teaching in the other room. And I would forget that it was there, and that normal afternoon

routine to collect my packages wasn't there. And so I think to some degree, we're seeing packages maybe exposed more. Another alternative or addition to this is, you know, a lot of people turn their garages into gyms, homeschools, rooms, et cetera. And so vehicles were outside, you know, and exposed. Just you think about the way that we lived changed. It may have opened us up to a variety of different crimes. And so I think that we've seen a huge increase in package theft during the pandemic, even though we're home more. And I think that's primarily driven from an opportunity context. So that's very important for us to consider. I'll also just talk. Yeah. Oh, I'm sorry, Ben. Go ahead. I interrupted.

No, you tell me where to go next because you asked two different questions. No, no. So I wanted to illuminate a little bit because we really like to talk a lot about how do we solve problems as you just did. And you pointed out that's really your goal and everyone's. And so how do we leverage the opportunity structures as you called out? Can you break that apart a little more? You talked about, well, we used to have vehicles outside. We had this. We had that.

Maybe there's some diminished efficacy as far as cameras or some other sensor goes, and there's maybe a call out there for some AI model that recognizes some of that risky behavior action. So I'll go back over to you. What are any other things that you could call out about what's an opportunity structure? And then what do you mean by that? How might we leverage it? It's a three-part question, Tom. I see your two and raise you. So opportunity structure is very important, as you pointed out. And one of the other things I keep trying to share with people is this isn't a single solution problem. You know, we like to look at a problem and think, well, just do X and it solves the problem. And I don't think that's ever going to be the case with package theft and the opportunity structure, you had to look at it as multi-layered. So, you know, as a resident, as a homeowner, someone who's receiving packages, you know, the things that they can do to change this structure is obviously retrieve the package as soon as it's there. And that means that, you know, you need to be mindful if you're at home and you get a notification that a package has been delivered to go outside and pick it up, you know, as quickly as you can. Or you can have a lockable storage device on the front porch. You can leave instructions for the delivery service to maybe

hide the package. So there's a number of things that a consumer can do. At the same token, the retailers probably should consider how they design packages. We're seeing an increase in the ships and own containers. So the same box you might go and pull off the shelf at Target or Walmart or another store, not specifically those, but just in general, they'll just slap a label on that and send it to you, sometimes even delivering from your local store. And that allows any thief to come by and see exactly what you had delivered to your front porch. And so, you know, there's room for retailers to reconsider how they design packages and how they send them. And then you can't forget the shipping companies either. And so there's opportunities either to look at where the

thefts are the highest and maybe alternate your delivery route. So maybe in a high theft area, you deliver later in the afternoon when more people are home. You look at some of the labeling on packages and the techniques for packages to be delivered. So there's any number of things that can be done. And it really is going to take all parties involved to do that together, to really fully change the structure and the opportunity that we have. Does that answer your question well? No, it really does. That's what I was looking for is, you know, always, always, as you were starting to call out before, hey, okay, here's what we're seeing. Here's what that might mean for prevention opportunities, protective opportunities. You know, these are the mechanisms. This is what they seem to be looking for, taking advantage of. Here are the change in dynamics here, what's going on. And so opportunity structures are changing. And so we need to change up what we're doing about all that. So that was excellent. And you asked a question about, I think at least we're implying, you know, some issues with policing and their response to this. The second study that we did on this found that very few

people called the police. I think less than a third, maybe 23%, I think, actually called the police. And a majority would contact the retailer. And then in the middle, about 50% would contact the delivery service. And so our research finds that generally people, even though this may not be fair, tend to blame the retailer. And one of the concerns I have is that this can cause a lot of concern on the retail side if they have brand trust issues, right, that develop from this, if they're always having their packages stolen. Even if they're not really, quote unquote, responsible, that's certainly, you know, a concern for the retailer to want to address this. And you carry that forward into policing, though, and very few police are actually made aware of this. And in many states, there are police are actually made aware of this. And in many states, there are not adequate laws to really address this. So a majority of states will fall

back on a mail theft statute. And the mail theft statute in almost every state really mimics the federal law. And it applies to United States Postal Service only, generally. And it says that generally, in most states, it has to be delivered at or near a mailbox. And so it could be that a package delivered by FedEx doesn't qualify and potentially even USPS, if it's delivered at your front door, may not qualify under state statutes because it wasn't near the mailbox. And so the police are left with not a clear crime to really record this with. Even when they do get called and even when they do take a report, then it's also very difficult to follow up on.

Again, because many states don't have clear statutes on this, you know, there are issues with what do we charge them with and what's the penalty. And in most states currently, package theft is just lumped into an all otherother-larceny category. There's not a specific crime in many states yet for package theft. Now, there's been states that are taking steps to do this. Georgia recently passed a law. I understand Tennessee, which is where I'm located, may have passed one just in the last week or two. And so there are efforts to try and address some of these shortfallings. But at the same token, and this is what I keep telling folks when they ask me, well, is this law going to stop it? I say, well, you know,

you really have to back this up with, is the rest of the criminal justice system, and I mean beyond the police department, going to have the will to actually address this? And my guess is it's unlikely. And so you can say, well, you can steal any package, and even if it's just a pair of athletic shorts or some ballpoint pens, it's instantly a felony, and a few states have done that. I just can't imagine that many states are actually going to follow through with that. And so I don't know that it's going to have a quick or direct impact on package theft. The only benefit that might come is if it's a now easily recordable crime, you might have the police investigate it more. We might get more numbers on how often this happens. So there could be some benefits, but I don't think just passing a law is going to solve the problem. Excellent. Back to you, Tom.

through these because I actually spent like everybody a huge percentage of time at home and thinking back would get the you know we have a bazillion cameras I actually when I went to Reed's house a couple months ago I said at least someone else has a bunch of cameras outside because I'm always testing them and playing with them and um my kids would actually go dad you know UPS was here like an hour ago do you want me to get the package? And so just because you're on the phone and your behavior has changed dramatically. And so I really, it makes sense that you say that. I didn't think of it that way. And then access and opportunity, right? It's kind of a no brainer. The more packages that are out there. I will say in where I currently live, I live on a cul-de-sac, very, very quiet street that literally nobody goes down. You can see we have a huge bay window if lost a package. It was a daily occurrence of my neighbor going, hey, did you pick up my package? And we had tons of video and someone would do it.

So I think it's still definitely a challenge. So just when you're hearing some of these laws and all these things going through from our consumer base, the consumers that are listening, what advice should they call the police? You know, how would you, you know, and I know this is not really scientific, but what advice, you're an expert on this, would you have for a consumer? What's the best way for a consumer to deal with it today? Well, that's a really, you know, tricky question, obviously, that you've asked, you know, and you pointed out one of the really important aspects of this is, you know, where you currently live, your risk may be much less. And where you lived before,

your risk was clearly much higher. In fact, apartments and shared living areas, you know, especially if they were built more than a decade ago, weren't designed with this level of package, you know, receiving in mind. And so that's a real physical space challenge, let alone security. And so really, as much as, I'm not trying to pass on the answer, but it really kind of depends on where you live and what your risks are.

And the biggest problem that many people have is we are horrible at measuring risk. And that's a real problem. And so if you live in an area where there has been that you're aware of, or that you were a victim of package theft, you know, you really might want to consider some significant steps, especially if you're going to get something that's either valuable or you can't replace. And that can span anything from having it delivered to an Amazon locker. Those have become popular. Having it delivered to a home or a neighbor, if you're not going to be home and you know your neighbor is and you trust them,

you can have it delivered there. You can have a lockable box. But when all those things fail, what seems to be the current trend is that you coordinate with the retail and they will often issue some type of a refund. And as I mentioned before, in most states, legally, once a package is delivered, even if it's what we call unattended, as in you're not home or you don't answer the door, legally, the ownership in most states transfers to the resident. But the retailers are often taking the hit on this. And in some cases, twice, right? They have to ship two packages and investigate this. So it's very expensive for retailers to do this to try and keep their customer base happy. Same as if they had a product that was something wrong with it and you've returned it to a store in person.

So we've shifted some of this. I guess I still go back to me. I've not had anything stolen, but I've had some things that didn't arrive or were delayed. And I've worked with the retailer to get either a refund or to ship that again. However, I do want to add, I do think it is very important that to make this issue known and recorded that maybe we do contact the police and ask them to at least file a report, whether that's something we can do online or not. The other thing I think is super important is making sure your neighbors are aware of this. And so this has been going on quite a bit, whether it's through an app or some type of software, whether it's a Facebook group or something, a next door app, that you can communicate with your neighbors and say, hey, somebody just stole a package. Be on the lookout.

to help raise some awareness so that others can jump in and maybe as you said where I was delaying getting the package and I see my neighbor had something stolen maybe I'll go and be a little more vigilant that does seem to have at least some impact because it does seem like some of these occur within neighborhoods now whether the thieves are from the neighborhood or not that's a different question and may not be true but they tend to go through a neighborhood at a time and so if you can raise awareness in the neighborhood that's always a good thing to try and prevent it as well. I got to tell you, for not thinking you answered it, you answered it perfectly, because that was, you know, the locker is the thing that, you know, I think is an option for people in urban areas, the neighbor. I think really that is exactly what I was looking for,

what people can really do. And again, I think it's intuitive when you hear someone say it, but when you're dealing with it and it becomes stressful, it isn't that intuitive. So I think those are great advice for everybody. I think I myself, and this is just me talking out loud, I had a package that was taken from a hallway and I didn't call the police. I didn't even think about calling the police. This is what I do, right? And I know people, I kind of literally call someone I know and I just literally, you know, I picked the phone up and I called and I actually used the chat feature and got it replaced right away.

And we had video and everything, so I think it's, you know, I think from your point, it's probably not a really good, a good keeping store with how big the problem really is because people aren't reporting it um so i think that those are all really great things to talk through um i think that's my next question is you know uh what are some of the trends that are happening today in the holiday season are they the same old same old trends is it just an opportunity for packages getting smarter or they're looking at box types or anything like that um i always read online a next or like

someone sold someone's christmas cards or like socks and it's like thanks for stealing my socks and good luck with it so. So is there any trends that you're starting to see where people are being more selective on size of box, weight, anything like that? Yeah, that's, you know, those are really interesting questions. What are the current trends? I think there's probably several. I like to tell people this is kind of a low-level entry crime, right? This is something that everybody can do. And that's a little scary. You know, it takes a certain amount of skill, believe it or not, to break into a house, to steal a car. It takes a certain amount of courage and risk to do an armed robbery or even a forced robbery.

Shoplifting is obviously, as many listeners know, there's some skill, although many of the ones you catch may not be quite so skillful. But really, I mean, this is literally as simple as I see a package, I walk up, I take it and I walk away off of somebody's porch. And in some cases, you don't have to walk maybe like five feet. So this is like, you know, no entry. And then I guess I have some concern that we have made this such a thing on social media, right? We have spent so much time showing these videos that anybody who's never thought of this before has now been inundated with this, hey, this is an easy thing to go do. And the reality is, it is super easy to go do. And so that, I think, you know, is going

to be a concern. As far as some trends that I've seen of that, again, I think package theft is going to continue. I think some of it's very opportunity-driven. I think some of it, someone walks by, sees a package, they're tempted, they see no one around, they go and take it. But there is more, there is some organization to other aspects of it too. The early research we did, we saw people working in teams very often, sometimes driving a car. And in almost every case, they would just pull in the resident's driveway, the driver, sometimes they'd back in and open a door. The passenger would get out, walk up, take the package, throw it in the back and drive away. And so we're seeing some of

that. We saw a few indications where people would have what we called a dummy box, which we assumed based on what we saw in videos that this was like a fake or an empty box, or they had a clipboard that maybe made them look like they were official. The assumption on our part is that maybe they were going to the house and if they were interrupted, they would say, oh, well, I'm trying to deliver this package. And so we saw that happening. We saw a few folks who even had the uniforms or at least part of the uniforms of some recognized delivery service providers. So, you know, that might be an issue. One of the ones I think is more intriguing, anything that gets shipped in this country that has an ion lithium battery in it

requires a warning label to be on the box. And I think this is a clear red flag for anyone who wants to be a thief. There is something valuable inside of that box. Now, it could just be a small device that has a high-tech battery, but it could be a phone, it could be any piece of electronic, a computer that's going to have these batteries. And so this is another example where I'm suggesting, if you think you're going to have something that's going to be of high value or high risk, you might want to consider having it delivered to somewhere that is secure. But again, another partner we have in this is the delivery service. And so I don't know, you know, maybe it's something as simple as having delivery drivers trained to take that sticker and make sure that sticker is face down on the porch when it's

delivered. And what that does is it prevents someone who's just walking by from seeing a big sticker on the side of the box that's flashing, steal me because I have electronics in it. So there's lots of different behaviors and things that we can do to try and, you know, mitigate some of these risks. So I think looking for electronics is, you know, a really big one. And we, by law, have to have basically warning signs on our box that say, you know, there's electronics inside. And so I think, you know, thinking about some of those things and those trends that may continue, but I do think you're going to have a more organized effort with this. And I'll just add real quickly, I am looking forward to an opportunity. In my previous research, and of course, my previous career, I interviewed

people for a living. And I really enjoy doing that. And I'm very interested in finding package thieves to interview, because I am very curious about the psychology behind this. It almost reminds me of maybe a slot machine, you know, in you score really big, I have no doubt. And other times you have to be very disappointed with what you get. And then what do you do with the in-between times, right? What if this item is somewhat valuable, but doesn't have anything, isn't something that you personally want to use? I would imagine, and I don't have research to back this up yet, that this is a source of a lot of the sales, the secondary market that we're seeing for online stolen goods, basically. And so I would imagine that those who are heavily involved in package theft are stealing, and sometimes they keep it for themselves, and sometimes if it's viable, but they don't want it, that it's then getting stolen. I'm sorry, the stolen item is

getting resold, you know, online. And so I'm very interested to try and interview some folks who were involved with this to kind of pick their brain to see, you know, what it is and, you know, what attracts them to a certain product or a package, and then what do they do with the items after they steal it, and why do they keep going back for more? Yeah, you hit something that I, it peaked just kind of personal, the whole mystery box trend where people go out and they buy something to get the thrill of what it is i mean that's a really you know and you can get same thing very disappointed like oh man this is not what i thought it was going to be but that's actually really an interesting kind of is there a psyche where the opportunity allows to like i wonder

what's in that box um type of trend and And it kind of leads me and I'll turn this over to read to some of the things that the LPRC is signage. I wonder, you know, what if you did put on every box that it was labeled as something it wasn't, what would happen? You know, what would then happen if someone saw this out of the box? Would it deter? Would it take people away? If you just had something on it that had a label that said socks or something low value, paper, pencil, things like that? That's a really interesting one. So, Reid, I'll turn it over to you. I have some other questions, but I know you have some as well.

Well, I mean, I did want to – what I'm going to do is share with you, Ben, and your team. We did do some porch pirate interviews in the same way that we, as you know, interview a lot of other offenders. So I can share that because there's a lot of opportunity there to greatly expand on the little bit that we were able to learn during our first blush about a year and a half ago. Now it's almost two years ago. So we need to refresh the data and go above and beyond as you're describing. And I do always love the idea, again, from that perspective, right, their perspective. And you just don't know what you're getting.

And I think, you know, we've talked a little bit about that model we tried to put out for some of the guys almost, again, two years ago. The job one is if the offender doesn't know there's a package, there's no initiation, right? They're not going to progress because they're not going to even initiate. So, and I don't know about you, but I think the little bit of video review I've seen you do and others and ourselves included, you don't see a lot of searching if they don't see something that they're going to still go up on porches. It seems to be they're going to, yeah, whether on foot, on bicycle, or otherwise in a vehicle, you know, they don't tend to stop unless they see something. So there's obvious implications there. But I love the idea of, well, why did you still launch on that one when you didn't know? I mean, is it smaller or larger or anything?

Certainly, if it says one brand name or another, it might be a clue. Or multiple packages, so you're hedging your bets. So let me go back over to you, Tom, because you did have a couple more and really good questions. I don't want to get in your way. Yeah, I think this is more now switching gears to the online merchant or the retailer. Have you had any retailers doing any research on box type and labeling and things like that? I mean, you bring up some really good points. I love the idea of facing label down. I just, when I think of how hard it is to train humans and turn, how hard that'd be. But it's one

of those things that's remarkably simple to do. But are you talking to retailers about things that are going on? I know some retailers, Amazon obviously is kind of the one that is often going out and trying to drive things like the lock to open the door to put it inside or drop it into your garage. Are you seeing that trend with any other retailers where the retailers are trying to address it? Because they're the ones ultimately getting hurt financially. I don't hear many horror stories about customers not getting refunds. So I'm wondering from, because our bulk audience is really going to be academic and retail driven. So are there any studies or things that retailers are trying or asking you about that,

first, are there any before we get into that are working? Sure. I've spent the last year or so presenting at a lot of different conferences. Some of them are security driven. Some of them are not. I just spoke at one about a month ago called ePack to a room of people who design packages for a living. So they're not the retailer, but they design the packages

and basically told them some ways to try and develop packaging that was gonna reduce the likelihood of there being a theft and shared some of my research. And so I think there's an interest there. Also, in quite a few of these locations where I've spoken, I've talked with some company officials after and, you know, addressed briefly some of the issues that I see and perhaps some of the ways that we could collectively, you know, work together to do this and even offered, you know, one of the best ways to really do this, as I know the LPRC does quite often, is to do a test study, a pilot study. So what happens if a company is willing to change the package type and even the color of the package?

You know, if you have a flexible package, it often comes in a white envelope, and that just stands out on the front porch. So is there another color that we could use that would be less obvious? And let's test that theory, right? If you have a company that delivers a box that is branded, right, it proudly displays your brand on it. What happens when you take that off for two months? What happens to your theft? So I'm eager to find some corporations who are interested in experimenting with some of these ideas. To date, I don't know of any who've done it. I'm sure there have been some that have. I have no doubt this whatsoever. And I think this is becoming a real driving force. I think package theft was becoming definitely on the forefront of many retailers' minds and probably around 2019. I mentioned this

a lot when I talked to people. I would imagine when retail stores began, you know, there was initially some issues with shoplifting and some theft. And for a while, it was probably almost tolerated to some degree. And then eventually, the retailers were like, you know, we're losing, you know, 2% or whatever the margin is, and we need to really address this. And it's worth it to invest in LP to really, you know, address this. And I have a feeling that package theft is becoming so prolific that most retailers are starting to say, wait a second, we've got to come up with some ways to address this. And I think there was some momentum that really got shifted during COVID.

And don't blame anyone for that at all, right? I mean, a massive increase in logistics, and then we have continued supply chain issues. But I think the timing is right for this. And part of the reason I think it's right is because if you think about it this way from a retail perspective, it's becoming more and more likely there's two points of contact that your customer is going to have with you. One is your digital presence, right? Your website, how easy is it to shop? One click, check out, those types of things, free shipping. We know all this makes a difference, how your site's designed, how you sell your products. But if you think about it, the only other point of contact that your customer may have with you is when they receive, hopefully receive, your package at the front door. And so that really, you know, we really need to start addressing how we're going to do

that. And I would imagine that a good customer experience, both obviously online and then the second point of contact, which is now the front porch, is absolutely vital to help retailers make sure that they not only have high sales, but that they have continued people who are coming back. retailers make sure that they not only have high sales, but that they have continued people who are coming back. And so I think this is really ripe for addressing this issue currently. So maybe some of the supply chain issues are working their way out. Of course, the high rate of sales online has come back down a little bit, but it's been pretty steady for the last year. So I don't think that's

going to shift a whole lot. So really, Tom, I keep saying to kind of rethink the front porch and retailer partnership, and that's key. And then I guess this is kind of, have you heard or seen any, you know, from a delivery retail side, anybody taking the approach of taking statistics and saying, this is a high risk zip code. You know, we have 80% porch piracy. We're going to require signatures. I know there's a cost and customer service. Have you seen anybody taking that route of actually using the data and saying like, you know, I lived in, you know, prior right on the four corners of Hoboken, WeHawk and using,

I mean, literally it was everyday hundreds of packages. So you would think, I know if I was still sitting in the retail that I would go like, let's, if it's over X dollars, let's force a signature because we know eight out of 10 packages are being taken. Have you seen anybody taking that approach? I know there's a customer service angle, but I'm just curious. And I can say anecdotally, I've heard of a little bit of this. And to be honest with you, it wasn't just surrounding the theft of the items necessarily. Sometimes it was around some of the violence that delivery service would face in certain neighborhoods. So there's certainly probably some awareness of this. Specifically, you know, have there been programs developed and things implemented to address this?

I'm not sure as much. And that's not always something that's advertised among a lot of folks saying, hey, we're taking this action. But I wouldn't doubt it at all. And I would say that it's very likely that retailers and shippers could probably identify the areas where they're having the most thefts and the most crimes and the most loss, if you will, and try to address that. So I think that's something that is probably, again, on the horizon, something that probably needs to be done. And again, a perfect market to test, say, what happens when we request that these certain things are implemented, when we require signatures, which I have a feeling is going to be probably a hard

push for a lot of reasons. Those are time consuming. There's additional fuel and other environmental impacts or repeated deliveries and things like this. So there's probably a suite of options for areas that are high risk to go to. And one of the things that I've mentioned to a couple of retailers is that, you know, once you can identify these either items that are frequently stolen or locations then you can start building a profile to better ship these items so it is entirely possible i think with the technology today for a company to say look this is an item that's stolen frequently and it's going to an area that's stolen frequently and right before checkout say we

require this package to have insurance or we require this package to be delivered to a parcel locker, or we require you to be home. And I think those are all areas that we're going to eventually see be developed among retailers and shippers to try and protect the packages as they're being delivered. Got it. Yeah. I'm always curious to you, like what can we do to solve it? Like we always talk about all the things that are happening, but I will tell you that I personally, this is my personal hate when there's signatures required because then it takes the convenience away of getting it shipped to my house like the whole idea is i don't want to sit there so on the flip side i i will tell you in where i lived before i would be concerned that we'd lose the package. So it was equally as frustrating to go,

like, is my package going to be there when I get home from the convenience side? So I think it's a daunting one for sure. And then really, I think we've kind of covered everything I had. I anecdotally have not seen, and again, I'm not as involved in a high adoption in, you know, enter your garage and unlock my door and drop the package off. Are you seeing anything different with that? I haven't seen a lot. I've actually known no one that's doing it. So I'm wondering if that's a... I don't know anyone who's doing it personally either. I know that when we did our second study, we asked people to rank. And part of that study has been published and part of it still

was Melody Hicks' graduate thesis. So parts of it are online and parts of it are published a little easier to get to. But we ask people about convenience. And by that, we mean consumers, right? What is convenient for you and convenience has multiple factors it includes things like cost right how much does an item cost to actually prevent the package theft such as buying a camera or something how convenient is that item to install and maintain that's you know a second question but then also was just the general convenience of doing this um and we found that convenience is, no surprise to anyone who's listening, a huge factor, right? You talk about the red shopper and the green shopper.

You want the green shopper to just walk right into the store without any type of hindrance, because you want them there. And by and large, most of us just want our packages at the front door so we can just walk outside and get them, because that's the most convenient thing to do. But there are certain circumstances where you have to say, well, this is less convenient, but it's necessary to protect the item. And so we also asked some interesting questions about trust of delivery services and specifically whether they would trust someone to go into your house. That scored incredibly low. And I think there's a lot of interesting risk and concern that goes on there.

Obviously, if you're willing to do it, then there's absolutely no problem with doing that. But I don't know that that's going to be high on the list currently for most people. I don't think we're at the point where most of societies are going to be saying, hey, just come inside and put it in. And even the garage door may be a step more likely than having it delivered inside of a house. But I think there's still some of the same concerns about safety and security that are there on the consumer side. So that's definitely a factor when you look for solutions. What's feasible is one thing and what customers will actually adopt. That's an entirely different question that we can't forget in this. Oh, yeah. I mean, so I think that those are all good points. I actually immediately,

and I remember being in a retailer at the time and having a conversation and thinking of the risk. What if a delivery driver does do something? Where does the risk fall? And that becomes a real challenge from a liability standpoint, because let's just face it, someone's package missing is very different than a home intrusion or an invasion where someone's home, you're never going to weigh the risk tolerance up that way. Or what if the dog gets out? That was my first thought, right? Like what if, you know, I have a friendly dog and she's not going to bite anybody, but what if she gets out the front door? Who's responsible then? You know, so, or you hit the garage door button after you've made the delivery,

but you know, those things can be fickle. Maybe it goes back up, but you're already halfway down the street and you don't know it, you know? So there's, there's a lot of liability questions involved there. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I mean, that was immediately what I thought about. And then I think this is my last question. It's just, I'm looking at all my notes from our last call of things that I wanted to talk about is what about these boxes, these boxes that you buy that either open with an app or closure? I've never again, I've never physically seen one at anybody's house. I've never actually talked to you using them. Is there adoption there? I know one of the companies and I don't know the name. I'd actually mention it because they were like they got a patent on it.

They claim to sell hundreds of thousands of these things. And I'm going, huh, I travel every week all over the world and I've never seen one. So what are the thoughts there? Have you done anything with that? Yeah, I've done a little bit with that. Some of the companies have orders for quite a few of them and haven't brought their product to market. A few other companies actually have these products. product to market. A few other companies actually have these products, and they range from, you know,

simply more of a storage container type thing to one that I've done some work with, DeliverySafe. Theirs is made out of steel, and so it's a little bit more difficult to get into, so it provides a little bit, you know, higher level of protection, if you will. You know, there's clearly been some adoption. These things are selling and are being installed. I think often they're being used in neighborhoods where there's a high risk for it, to be perfectly honest. But I think, as I kind of mentioned this before, you know, there's an opportunity for us to really rethink the front porch. So, you know, if you consider home designs over the last hundred years, they've changed dramatically. And so if you lived in the north, you've probably had a coal chute to put your coal in your basement so you could heat your house in the winter. And then many houses of a certain age had a milk chute where the milkman would come and bring either your milk to put it in the wall. And then there's another stage where we had front doors

that had mail slots, you know, where you're just used to putting little tiny envelopes in it. And then we transitioned to a mailbox, and those boxes have gotten larger. And so what we're seeing is really a progression in how the front porch is used. And so, you know, we used to have the front porch when there was no air conditioning, we'd all gather outside in the cooler atmosphere and talk with our neighbors. And now we're seeing the front porch is almost the center of commerce. And so that's a real interesting challenge. And especially as we think about the supply chain working backwards, if you will, right? The opportunity for me to leave something on the front porch

for delivery service to come pick up, that's a whole nother layer of risk that we have here involved. And so I really think that some type of box design structure on the front porch may be what's just ubiquitous among all houses that are developed and built in the future and certainly something that's added to those you know currently I have one on my porch it's used almost every day at this point I've not used it in a reverse fashion but that's certainly something I could do is I want to either have someone come by my house and pick something up or say I was in business to just drop it in

the box, give the pickup company the code, they can come by and pick it up. So I do think that this is going to be something that is very common in the future. And it's taking off. I don't know exactly numbers to say how fast, but certainly again, as we reconsider how to get things across the threshold, the last foot of the last mile, if you will, I think some type of service in box like this is going to be very common. Well, I'm going to table that for the next time we talk because I know we're going to do it again to follow up with it. And I think you should – and I know you have lots of free time. You should get with some designers. lots of free time you should get with some designers and I think your idea of kind of taking the approach of maybe the outfit in a new house is we design either a chute or a trap door

because it makes perfect sense if you're going to build a house you know you're going to buy packages it is the future it is the way we operate today why not address it you know from the the physical aspects of the house so um read it I I know Reid had another call to jump on. So I wanted to thank you and really appreciate you coming back on. I know how busy you are and how hard it is. I know that the listeners will love it. We had a great, great response the first time. So I know that this is on the mind of everybody.

And it's always good to see you and catch up with you. So thanks for joining us. And let's not wait two years next time. Let's try to at least once a year connect, because I don't think this is going away. And I think it's just going to become more of a problem. Yeah, absolutely. I'm happy to talk, happy to do it more often, and happy to engage with anyone who has some more data for us to take a look at. Because as I said, we still don't know a lot about this problem yet, but I'm eager to learn more, eager to just solve this problem. Everyone wants to get the package that they've ordered, and it should be feasible. And so hopefully together we can work, as your team has done for many years, to really solve this

issue and address this crime where it's occurring at the porch. Yeah, Ben, thank you again so much. And to all the listeners out there, we really appreciate it. Please like, subscribe, and share the podcast. It helps us immensely. Signing off, and until next time. Thanks for listening to the Crime Science Podcast, presented by the Loss Prevention Research Council and sponsored by Bosch Security. If you enjoyed today's episode, you can find more crime science episodes and valuable information

at lpresearch.org. The content provided in the Crime Science Podcast is for informational purposes only and is not a substitute for legal, financial, or other advice. Views expressed by guests of the Crime Science Podcast are those of the authors and do not reflect the opinions or positions of the Loss Prevention Research Council.