LPRC - Episode 5 – Organized Retail Crime & METRORCA

Episode Date: April 4, 2018

The post Episode 5 – Organized Retail Crime & METRORCA appeared first on Loss Prevention Research Council.

Hi everyone, welcome back to Crime Science, the podcast made possible by the Loss Prevention Research Council. In this podcast, we explore helpful topics about preventing crime and loss, the science behind these efforts, and we'll hear real-world examples from loss prevention and asset protection practitioners and other industry professionals as well. On today's episode, co-host Dr. Reid Hayes of the Loss Prevention Research Council and Tom Meehan, Chief Strategy Officer at ControlTech, will discuss organized retail crime and Metro Orca with T.J. Flynn of JCPenney and Metro Orca. Welcome everybody to another episode of the Crime Science Podcast. I'm Dr. Reed Hayes from the University of Florida and from the LPRC in Gainesville, Florida. What we're going to do today is talk about organized retail crime or ORC a little bit. We've got a pretty active ORC working group, one of our eight LPRC working

groups here in Gainesville, where we work together with multiple chains, probably 20 or more U.S. retail chains get on the phone every month with one or more of our research scientists and go through what's going on, what are they seeing, how they handle it. They're using research, they're commissioning research from our team, interviewing boosters and fences or going out there and conducting interviews, or they submit data sets to us that we can look at crime events and attempts and types to look for patterns and opportunities. Today, we're going to talk a little bit with a very special guest, TJ from JCPenney. He's also the head of the New York area, New Jersey area, Metro Orca. He'll talk a little bit about that

as well. And of course, my colleague in crime science, the podcast, I'm going to go over to Tom Meehan now. Tom, if you want to go ahead and introduce yourself and tell us a little about what we're up to today. Thanks, Reid. Tom Meehan here. I'm the Chief Strategy Officer with ControlTech. Another exciting episode, and we're excited to have everybody here, and we have a great guest. So, Tom, what I was going to do, too, is we put things in context here, is going back in time, and who knows what that timing was, or at least who can recall it accurately, where we started talking about ORT, organized retail theft, and how extensive it was. Teams started being put together. I remember Walmart and others

putting together ORT teams. They had surveillance vans for the first time, and we're going back 20 or more years now. They even had NCIC and local crime connectors, computers in their vans so that they could look up auto tags and run people to see if they were wanted or their criminal histories and so on, and working very extensively, of course, with law enforcement. And that continued to pick up steam. And going back probably about 14 years ago, the Retail Industry Leaders Association, RELA, came to us and said, hey, we've got a grant we'd like to give you and your team. Reed, can you all kind of look into and help us better define and describe this ORT problem? Well, what we did was, as part of that, went out and interviewed literally dozens of ORT problem? Well, what we did was as part of that, went out and interviewed literally dozens of ORT investigators from multiple chains. I can remember Target and Walmart and now L Brands and on and on. Many of these investigators that were very skilled, very experienced. We interviewed most of them by phone, some in person, describing what are they up against, how do they collect their intelligence, how do they put together their cases,

how do they interface and work with law enforcement and prosecutors, what does all that look like, what are their suggestions, what are case studies and war stories that they could tell us. And we did the same thing with local law enforcement, property crimes detectives or others that were working in the area area with the state law enforcement level agencies, including here in our state, FDLE or Florida Department of Law Enforcement, and then a lot with FBI. And this is before DHS and others were really around and doing some of what they do now, some of their good work. But in FBI, we spent some good quality time up in Atlanta, Georgia. They had had two big time cases there, American Dream One, American Dream Two, that the tentacles of that ORC group spread throughout the United States. Of course, like most crime, was very

engaged in the state of Florida. But that went all over the place. And what we learned, though, through these interviews, and so on, we were introduced to active ORC, or at that time, ORT offenders at the booster level and at the different levels of fencing that were going on at that time. And FBI let us talk to offenders and sources that we were working with on American Dream 1, 2, Operation French Fry, and so on. And we learned an incredible amount. But what we came away from that research,

and that's published, it was published by RILA and by the LPRC and is out there, was that ORT probably did not adequately describe the issue. and that's where ORC came from. We recommended in that report, Tom, let's go to this organized retail crime description because there's a lot of fraud here, not just theft. As we all know, with gift cards, these groups were going out there, and they would bring in a lot of illegal immigrants from the Middle East, South America, and other places, former Eastern Bloc countries. They would get them in here legally. They had printing set up for fake documents and so on.

They were opening fake bank accounts so that they could write bad checks. They were giving them bad ATM and credit cards. It was just scarily complex what was going on in the Atlanta area. Local law enforcement had been compromised. In one case, over a dozen police officers were compromised by one ORC group. That's obviously when you see the Georgia Bureau of Investigation and the FBI involved. They did a lot of extensive, sophisticated surveillance. And so the point of all that is ORC is probably a pretty good description of where we are today. But I want to get your thoughts on that, Tom and TJ. Going from ORT to ORC,

what are we seeing now? How are things changing out there? What's new? What's different as far as what they're doing, how they're doing it? How often are things focused in certain areas? Tom, I'll go to you. Sure. I mean, I think one thing is you bring up a point that I remember very vividly when ORT turned into ORC. And one of the first challenges or the problems I see today is that there's an inconsistent understanding from jurisdiction to jurisdiction. So what happens is state and local and federal law enforcement all see ORC differently. And in some states, they're very aggressive and there's some good laws and in others there aren't. In turn, I think retail, both through RELA, the LPRC, the NRF,

we have a good understanding of the definition, but how that translates to law enforcement differs dramatically today. TJ Flynn is our special guest today. He's the president and co-founder of the Metro Orca. And TJ, welcome to the podcast. Thanks for joining us. Special guest. Wow. Thanks, Reid, and thanks, Tom, for having me. You are a special guest, and we're really excited to get. Thanks, Reed. And thanks, Tom, for having me. You are a special guest and we're really excited to get you on the podcast. And let's just start off for some of our listeners. You know, what is Metro Orca? So Metro Orca, we established Metro Orca about three or four years ago, just in the New York City area. And it was designed to create a community

where law enforcement and retailers, all working property crime, could share their intelligence, where we could try to connect the dots and figure out the notion really, is your bad guy, I should say, is your bad guy my bad guy? And setting up an intelligence site where that information could be shared was crucial.

The model had already been built out across the United States in different regional settings, and this was the one thing that we were really missing in this market. So with the help of NYPD and with the help of several other retailers in the start, we were able to work with the vendor, get the website up and running. And I think the most important thing about these Orca groups all across the country, and especially Metro Orca, it's not just about the website. It's not just about posting incidents and alerts. It's about connecting the people, the people that are working these investigations on both the law enforcement and the retail side. We're all in this fight together.

I think it's important for our members to understand that we can learn from each other, whether it's retail or law enforcement. We all have different tips and tactics. We all know something in our own world that can be used to really bring the fight to these offenders that are out there in the market causing problems in retail. TJ, what's your role with Metro Orca? My role at Metro Orca is the president and co-founder. We started Metro Orca about three years ago. And my objective is to continue to create excitement about the website and not only the website, but the partnerships that we're creating out there in the market.

Metro Orca is all about partnership between retail and law enforcement. partnership between retail and law enforcement. TJ, can you give us an example of how ORC is sort of morphing and changing? New things are popping up or new ways to do things. Could you describe that? Give us a case study. From the trend standpoint, what I'm seeing a lot of are larger dollar value thefts that are occurring out in the market. It could be over the counter drugs. It could just be merchandise such as clothing, things that we wear every day. But what we're seeing, which is really a concerning trend, is that the dollar value seems to be going up. The frequency seems to be going up and there just seems to be no rhyme or reason to it. Social media also seems to be driving the organized retail crime threat. And what I mean in saying

that is we're seeing a lot of the product being fenced through different social media sites, through different e-tailer sites. Similar to what we saw 10 years ago, we're seeing explode into many different social media platforms. Some of them were never actually intended to be a resaler of merchandise, but are being used in that way. And it becomes very difficult for an investigator to track that. And finally, gift cards still continue to be a proceed that boosters are after, whether it's just returning merchandise to the store that was previously stolen to acquire that gift card or merchandise credit, or using stolen credit card information to purchase gift cards.

Gift cards seems to still be a big trend out there in organized retail crime. And unfortunately, also the aspect of the opioid addiction that's gripped our nation has become a means for these unfortunate souls to feed their addiction. It's very easy to come into a retail store to grab something off the shelf and to return it. And we're hearing a lot about addicts flipping those gift cards for drugs as opposed to going to a pawn shop and getting cash. They're going right to their dealer, and their dealer is essentially the one cashing in that gift card

after giving them their drugs. Good stuff. So I think that's part of like anything, we just need to know more about the scope and scale, but where it's happening, when it's happening, who are these groups, how are they determining where they're going to go? Are they following people? Some of it's probably insider threat. And I kind of want to interject about, you know, the Lost Fishing Research Council, LPRC, we have an ORC working group. We've got anywhere from eight to 28 ORC professionals on the calls any given month. And they meet monthly by phone. Sometimes they have webinars. Sometimes they meet in person. But what they're trying to do there is work with one or more of our scientists on our team to help drive their conversations with evidence, with research. All right, we're going to interview some boosters systematically or fences. that somebody or a group has submitted for analysis so that you're continually interjecting science or research into the conversations that you all have. But one thing I was going to bring up with you, TJ, is that group working with serial burglars, serial robbers into discussion basically because it's retail. It is to extent organized and of course it's crime. And what are your thoughts on including serial burglars and robbers in discussion in the research

on Orsi? I was actually just having a conversation with a peer in regards to some break-ins and overnight burglaries that he's experiencing at his retailer. I think that, you know, the trend is there. It's there to stay. I think that as a lot of these crews, you know, traditionally were targeting other industries like the jewelry industry, now making their way over into the retail industry. And I mean, we've been seeing that increase over the past maybe five years or so. I definitely think it's something that from a Metro Orca standpoint, we need to focus more on and potentially even dive in analytically and get some more folks out there in the field to contribute to actually sending in information that's specific to the burglaries so that we can start sharing that with our partners here in the industry.

That's great feedback. And I know that ORC working group, working with Violent Crime Working Group now, what's going on is looking at a lot of these armed robberies used to be just cash. That's still the predominant. A lot of these armed robberies used to be just cash. That's still the predominant. Even our drugstore members are telling us that 70% or more of their armed robbery events are driven by cash. They're kind of the grab-and-run type of thing.

But in pharmacy, robberies and takedown robberies are occurring. Pharmacy at a little bit greater rate as far as the increase, but they're still relatively rare compared to the cash and dash. But what's happening in some of these stores, particularly when we've got guys like Best Buys and Walmarts and Targets and T-Mobiles and Verizon and on and on that are selling cellular telephones, particularly Apple products, they're seeing an increase in both after-hours burglary and, of course, during-hours armed robbery of their stores for the iPhones particularly, or of their customers just as they leave their store, they go around the corner with their brand new iPhones. So very organized, same groups, they're doing other things. This is a new bent. So I wanted to know if maybe it may be something that you all at your work may want to take a look at if you're not already. I got one more quick one that I want

to go over to Tom. But, you know, we had LerpNet for a while. It was a way for retailers to enter data on their crime attempts, their events that they had, what they knew about the offenders involved, what they knew about how the event or the action went down, things about that attempt. And then, of course, things about maybe what they lost and so on. And then they were sharing that information with each other, and LERP being law enforcement and retailer, so did law enforcement. And I know it was somewhat difficult to take the time sometimes to enter the information. There was errors in it. That's going to be inevitable in the data.

But it's my understanding that LERPnet is rarely, if ever, used anymore. What are your thoughts on LERPnet, or is there a replacement already out there or on the way, anything that you or Tom, this goes to Tom as well. Reid, I agree with you. The many different iterations of LerpNet and LerpNet 2.0 were designed to bring the retailers together in this fight. Unfortunately, the cost was prohibitive, and there were some privacy and liability issues out there

that the retailers just didn't want to be a part of at the time. Now, I can tell you that the Orca models are working. People are sharing information. They're collaborating. And we've got to continue to build on this, whether it's just in the regions that we operate or if we do move to a national model. I can tell you that people are comfortable with sharing the information and that we need to start moving more towards an analytical model, but we need more data. So if you're listening out there and you're part of an ORCA group, we need to start moving more towards an analytical model, but we need more data. So if you're listening out there and you're part of an ORCA group, we need you to put in more information so that we can start building an analytical model through our sites.

Yeah, I think there's a couple things on the works now that are commercial-based products where similar to the consortium or like LerpNet or any of the other ones that we've seen in the past, I think TJ hit the nail on the head. The privacy issue is one, and then the costing issue is two, is how do you ask a retailer to provide data and then charge them a fee? And then it becomes a game of, well, I have more records than you do, especially when you get into the Macy's, Home Depot's, Walmart's, and all of those folks basically fund the pool in pennies and coals. All these organizations that stop more than 100,000 people a year

end up saying, yeah, we'll share our data, but we really don't want to pay for it. And then it becomes kind of the viral circle of no one wants to pay to play and it becomes challenging um you know i think that's the first piece the other piece is privacy and liability and i put them together because um i think you're going to see in the next two years them starting to connect um a lot more than even in the past so, very, we're fastly approaching where GDPR will affect the United States, which basically will mean anybody from Europe will have to be treated differently in data capture. So I think when you start to add new privacy laws and regulations, it takes an already very complex and challenging problem and makes it extraordinarily more difficult because

of all the things that are occurring with PCI, PII, and all of these governmental regulated things that weren't even around when LerpNet started. I think LerpNet had a great idea. I think the pay-to-play model was tough to consume. And I also think from sitting in a retailer's chair, and I remember because I actually was the person that owned the program, it was, I'm going to give you all my data, I'm going to pay you all these things, and I'm not, and the accuracy of the data isn't as good as it should be based on what you're saying. So I think a really good solution that is out there today is the Orcas. They are real, they are really coming along. And Metro Orca, i was fortunate enough to be involved when it started i was not a founder i was i think i i ran an investigations program

at that point so i went to the meetings but it was as close as you can get to that data without crossing the threshold of what was challenging and i think something that tj and the group did that was very smart is coming up with different user levels because i have worked for retailers that would not share information and I've worked for retailers that would share information. So allowing that view only option kind of puts that middle ground in. I do know that there are two projects that are in the works right now that I think are still being positioned to come to market where companies are saying, hey, we have this data, we want to provide it. But it's again, I think it's coming down to what's the pricing going to be and how to, how do they regulate the privacy. And then the last piece as a retailer, and I was a retailer for 20 years, and I know read your retail, everybody forgets that that's where we came from, is that telling someone on the front line to make a decision based on someone else's data or even implied decision becomes a liability issue. So when you're right, everybody celebrates. When you're wrong, it's used against you. So it's one of those things that's a double-edged sword. I do think with some of the things that are occurring,

we'll see the rebirth of something similar to LerpNet. Unfortunately, I feel that until the privacy issues are addressed, that it's a challenge. And that's why, you know, the timing of TJ being a guest is so great, because I think all of the orcas are great. I think obviously Metro Orca is near and dear to my heart, because where I live and where I've lived my whole entire life, and I know a lot of the members and work side by side with them. But I think the Orcas today are a good option. I think the data collection and the availability of the data is there. And I think because of the model, the privacy concerns are a little different. And then everybody involved in Orca, although they don't have to say

it, says it often that this is information only. Don't act on the information. See if it will help you close that case. And now more than ever, with the interstate crime and ORC, I think the ORCAs are a huge, huge part of solving that riddle. So I know that was a long-winded answer, but I can tell you I could go on for days about the privacy concerns that are coming. Thanks, Tom. I had another question for you, TJ, and again, probably both of you all because of your recent and extensive history in the NYPD area, Tom, but can you describe a little bit about your working relationship with NYPD? What are some things, some takeaways that other ORCAs, that other ORC operators out there, that law enforcement personnel that also listen to this podcast or are involved with other ORCAs,

what are some things that we can learn from that relationship? We don't want to call out negative things necessarily on the podcast, but what are some of the lessons learned so far, TJ, things that we can all do to get better in interfacing law enforcement and retail investigations? Reed, the cooperation is great. I mean, one of the most important things is that we're connecting people who have a similar mindset and want to get after the organized theft piece out there in these different markets. And I think that's one of the most important things that we all have to understand is that

we're in this fight together. So whether you're on the law enforcement side or the retail side, we have things that we can learn from each other, whether that's how to better prosecute a case from a retail perspective, we can learn that from law enforcement, the prosecutors. And from their standpoint, we can teach them about the different frauds and scams that are happening in the retail sector and how they can help us get the proper evidence for a good prosecution. Excellent. Tom, what are your thoughts as far as, say, NYPD, I remember being at a Gus Downing New York event when now at least two different NYPD police commissioners have spoken. In both cases, they were very supportive.

And it goes back to what I just heard from TJ in that they understand at that level the strategy behind the ecosystem that they're protecting. behind the ecosystem that they're protecting. They know that their city, their metro area is an ecosystem and that retailing is a very vibrant and critical part of their ecosystem and that they need a lot of support in specific ways rather than just, well, this is a hassle to haul their shoplifters away, but rather let's be a little more strategic. We want all the parts of our ecosystem that are critical to that ecosystem to be healthy. And so that means they can't be constantly preyed on by fraudsters and thieves, really, and as well as violent criminals. So that came from the very top, where they understood the strategy and the reason behind it. But I'm wondering, as it gets down,

and the reason behind it. But I'm wondering, as you go down the ranks of NYPD into the commanders and lieutenants and inspectors and so on, all the sergeants and the patrol officers out there, what's that cooperation like to you guys? So, you know, I can say a lot of this, instead of being repetitive, I would say a lot of the same things TJ did. You know, I was very fortunate in New York working with some great people. And in all of the areas I worked in New York, there were great precincts that had good understanding,

as well as task force, whether it be a grand larceny task force, there was an organized retail crime task force. And the names changed over the years with some of the changes in the department, but there were specialized units. with some of the changes in the department, but there were specialized units. So, you know, yes, I'm a little jaded, but I do think the NYPD has one of the best police departments. They certainly have the most capable police department that I've ever worked with. And so what I would say is TJ mentioned partnership and relationships, you know, starting with the people and showing how you can work together and build

the case that's clean and easy for them to understand. I think one thing as retailers that we forget is we have some pretty complex cases. And a lot of times when we bring them to law enforcement, and this is where the level of law enforcement comes in, and it's a officer that's responding to a call for a shoplifter and it turns into a very complicated ORC case, not taking the time and working through just like anything else and presenting a case that is very, very easy to digest for them so that they can understand it and articulate it well. That's one of the starting points of getting that put together right. But I think it starts even earlier than that with participating in community events

and working with the departments and doing things like this conference. And this conference is probably the last time I was at a conference in New York. There were several NYPD detectives there. There was an ADA and a supervising ADA to discuss the new New York state ORC law. So it was a couple of years ago, but this was very much local and law enforcement and private sector working together. As a matter of fact, at that meeting, there were some folks that were on the mayor's detail specifically there. So yes, sometimes there's politics involved, but the reality is the fact that someone's at that meeting shows, to your point, Reid, that they do care and

it is important to them. I'll talk to the other side without getting specific into departments. I've had the extreme other example of where you have departments that are not interested, and sometimes it's because you have a, they're having a bad day and you get the wrong police officer. Sometimes it's because they're overtaxed and sometimes it's, you know, the partnership or the relationship wasn't established. So I think that's where it all starts. And then understanding, you know, just like, just like everybody else in a lot of cases, they are overworked and have a huge caseload. So it becomes challenging for them to keep up with the caseload. And, you know, when you're calling from a retailer,

what does everybody think about it? Oh, that's just a shoplifter. I mean, I'm sure everybody who's listening to this podcast, if they're involved in asset protection, has had the same kind of conversation where some, oh, you just catch shoplifters. They don't realize how much is involved in some of these ORC cases and millions of dollars or when you talk about other issues that occur. So I think everything starts with partnerships and presenting a really good, clean case and representing the police department well. Fantastic.

And I remember going back in a prior life when I was down in Orange County, Florida, and we had a detective, and he was one of the property crimes, the main guys for that particular sector. And he came by every time we caught a shoplifter, anybody on my team did, so that he could interview them and identify them because he was clearing a lot of other crimes that as we know people try to specialize but they don't you're if you're particularly if you're a habitual or ongoing high impact offender so he made a lot of cases and we

see like you're saying Tom to your point that and and you were making earlier TJ and that is look regardless of the size of your agency it seems like no matter what type of crime an offender that you're particularly interested in specializes in, they also shoplift all the way up, including being involved intermittently or full-time in different crews or types of ORC theft and fraud activities. So that's my thought. And how do we continue to build that? I know the ORC working group here is working on a couple of packets or kits, training modules that go to a police academy level. And there's some good examples out there that were done. JCPenney, right, has done a really neat one that was up there. I think it was in Chicago or somewhere in the Midwest. But that type of

initial training information for that level of officer going in and on patrol out there in the streets. And then, of course, something for the property crime investigators to understand what type of cases you'll be involved in and what you could really do as far as affecting crews and big-time offenders in your area. I guess one last question that I have is state statute needs or tweaks to a statute. Any thoughts there from you all? T.J., I'll go to you first, but what do we need in the areas at least you're familiar with, and that's particularly up in that northeastern corridor? New Jersey has an organized retail crime statute.

It's actually called the leader of an organized retail crime entity. And it has been difficult, speaking with my partners, to prosecute under that statute. show in court that somebody is actually leading an organized retail crime entity, which can be difficult because we know that these groups, they're so tight knit. And once somebody's caught, they don't want to speak. So even though we do have that great law in the books, it has been tough to prosecute. From the perspective of New York, New York enacted an organized retail crime statute. One of the things about that statute that's a little bit difficult is that an entity is treated as one company. So regardless of the amount of incidents that have occurred at my store, at my brand, at my company, through New York, through the different counties,

it's only counted as one entity. So Store A, Company A has multiple thefts through New York. It's still only one total incident. You would actually have to have Company B involved and have it cross counties and have there be multiple people involved for it to be charged under this new statute. So even though there are some parts of the statute that we love, the aggregation we love, the cross-county prosecution we love, we really yet have had the opportunity to challenge the enterprise or entity clause in there. the enterprise or entity clause in there. And we will, once we do have a great case to present,

we will be the first ones to test that out and see where it goes from there. Yeah, I agree. I think the one thing I'll say is the New York state law specifically is so new that it hasn't really been challenged. So the interpretation of the writing hasn't really been defined. So it's not like some of these other statutes in Florida that have been around for decades. So I think ADAs are, I don't want to say a little light with it, but they're still learning, okay, how is this going to be interpreted? No one wants to be the first person to have the law, you know, the law or the indictment challenged. So New York is still, I think, going through that stage. And I think the way the law is written in New York, to TJ's point, it's a little tricky to identify how the groups are related and to really

meet all the requirements. But one thing I will say is the fact that New York State took the time and went through and passed it shows great progress from before when there wasn't one. So, you know, it's only been a few years. In New Jersey, I had a lot of experience in New Jersey. You know, I worked in Jersey for several years in several different capacities. I think enterprise theft at a state level is used quite a bit, but it's used to plead the case down. So it's a tactic that's often used, let me charge real high so it's easier to get them to plea. That was my personal experience in multiple jurisdictions, but it still shows that they're treating ORC more aggressively than other cases.

treating ORC more aggressively than other cases. One thing I go back to, and I know this is kind of, you know, the pie in the sky thing that I always say is about is consistency from state to state would be great. If everybody truly defines even enterprise theft, you would see, you know, we all know that if someone asked us, we'd have a definition for ORC for enterprise theft. And sometimes it's theft for resale. It's as simple as they're stealing it to resell it. But then when you start to broaden that umbrella to ORC, we're also interested in other things too, obviously. So TJ's points, I think, are spot on. When I had more global responsibility, I would tell you that state to state I saw remarkable differences in how it was handled.

And then federally, I've actually been told the exact same thing several times. You're never going to see a RICO case. I've actually seen federal cases turn into wire fraud cases because it was easier to prosecute that than an enterprise RICO case. And I mean big, big, several million dollar cases with huge, huge repercussions and serious jail time and still could not get anybody to take that on. And that had a lot to do with the state's attorneys that I dealt with were very honest.

It's easier to process this case. They're gonna get the same amount of time. They're gonna get the same amount of jail time at the end of the day. And we need to close cases. You know know it was kind of a supply and demand thing that they had so many cases running or going by and non-violent offenders take a second seat to violent you know violent offenders and then the other thing is that and this is uh controversial but i'll say it is they're in all in a lot of of your AGs, your prosecutors,

your district attorneys, depending on the jurisdiction, they're politically motivated positions. So they need sexy, they need sexy crimes so that they can show the general public what they're doing. And ORC is only a sexy crime when it comes with pictures of millions of dollars next to it. It's very hard to articulate. And I know TJ and I worked on the same groups where literally for 10 years, I chased the same group that got federally indicted two years ago. And if you think about that, 10 years of my career was spent on this one group. And every retailer I know was involved.

And it took us 10 years together to get that case federally prosecuted. Think about, just think about how, you know, that was one case in the Northeast and it covered, it really covered the whole entire United States, but we were able to do it out of the Manhattan, you know, FBI office. But so I think all of those things, but I think it goes back to consistency in the law. Before we wrap up today's episode, I just wanted to get more info on how one can get involved in Metro Orca. The easiest way to get involved in Metro Orca is to go to the website www.metroorca.org and that's one O in Metro Orca and you can sign up. You can sign up as a retail member, a law enforcement member, or a retail read-only member. A retail member will have full access to the site and be able to view and post alerts. A law enforcement member will have full access to the site

and will also be able to see additional information that's posted by law enforcement on individuals that are on the website, some stuff that may be law enforcement sensitive. If you are a read-only member, you are able to view the posts, but you are not able to submit posts. And the reason why we have that membership type is that some retailers and some other entities out there that are on the site, they want to restrict the amount of people that can actually add information onto the website, just from a privacy standpoint and a liability standpoint. So we give them that option, but we still encourage them to have their people join the website in a read-only fashion so that they may be able

to view the alerts that are happening out there in the market. TJ, I know that Metro Orca is having its first annual conference. Can you tell us a little bit about that conference? We are set to launch our inaugural conference here in New York City at the NYPD Training Academy in Flushing, New York on April 17th. We expect there to be over 300 people in attendance, and we have a great list of speakers. You'll also be able to earn continuing educational units towards your CFE and your CFI. It's a very exciting opportunity for us to bring the first conference to New York City, and we look forward to having a great day on April 17th. Who will be speaking and what topics will be covered at the conference?

speaking and what topics will be covered at the conference. First and foremost, we'll have a excellent presentation from Contessa Brewer and Scott Zamos of CNBC. And if some of you remember, late last year, they put out an investigative report on the opioid addiction and gift card fraud. This is going to be a very intriguing behind-the-scenes look at this investigative report, and we expect the audience to have numerous questions and be just naturally curious about how they went ahead with putting this story together and really kind of diving into what the real problem is to find some real solutions. So we're really excited to have them. to find some real solutions. So we're really excited to have them. We also have yours truly here, Tom Meehan. He will be speaking to us about the convergence of organized retail crime and dot com and how those two worlds are slowly combining. Well, not necessarily combining,

but maybe just colliding into each other as a lot of these fraudsters go online. We're pleased to have Dave Thompson from Wicklander and Zawelski, who will be providing over two hours of training on interview and interrogation. That's sure to be a great, great training piece for all of our members that will be in attendance that day. And again, his training will give you credits towards your CFI or CFE. And finally, we have a guest speaker from the banking industry who will be talking about a very hot topic these days, cryptocurrency, and what you can do to understand more about cryptocurrency, how it works, and what it looks like from a fraud standpoint. Great. Again, I'm really looking forward to it. I know that last time we spoke, there were

several hundred people attending, and that's really exciting. I think being in the New York metro area, it's probably one of the hot pockets in the country. So super excited to go there. I'm going to be actually speaking about kind of the narrowing gap between cybercrime and organized retail crime. And it kind of goes right back to what Reid started with, where the blanketed statement of organized retail crime is much more appropriate today. Because there are these artificial lines that are drawn. Well, that's not retail crime. That's credit card fraud. And that's not robbery crime. That's credit card fraud. And that's not, you know, robbery.

It's shoplifting. And so taking that umbrella and really talking about some life examples. So definitely looking forward to being there and seeing everyone. Excellent. Well, you know what? I really appreciate you being on the show with us today, TJ. Fantastic insight. And I know there's going to be a lot of people that are going to be looking forward to your

conference coming up. Tom, I appreciate, as always, all your insights and all your expertise. And I want to thank everybody else out there listening. You know, please tune in, let everybody know. We're on all the platforms that put out podcasts from iTunes onward. And everybody have a fantastic week. Thanks so much.