Mad, Sad and Bad with Paloma Faith - Elizabeth Day: How I Found Peace With Never Becoming a Mum

Episode Date: February 25, 2025

TW: This episode contains discussion of assaultElizabeth Day is the person who first introduced me to podcasts, and if it weren’t for her this podcast probably wouldn’t exist, so it was an absolute dream to invite her round to mine for a chat!In this conversation, we discuss the sexist double standards that make Elizabeth mad, and I was thrilled to discover that beneath Elizabeth’s effortlessly put-together exterior is a person who indulges in road rage and isn't against having a cry on the tube. She also tells a never before heard story about the final piece of the puzzle that helped her accept not become a mother and how that, in turn, allowed her to find new ways to nurture and create in her life.Elizabeth also shares some hilarious dating stories, which you can hear more of in her new podcast How to Date, where she shares more of her trademark big-sister wisdom and dating advice! Elizabeth is so generous and thoughtful, spending time with her was an absolute treat.#ELIZABETHDAY #PALOMAFAITH #MADSADBAD—Find us on: Instagram / TikTok / YouTube—Credits:Producer: Jemima RathboneAssistant Producer: Magda CassidyEdit Producer: Pippa BrownEditor: Shane O'ByrneVideo: Jake Ji & Grisha NikolskyVideo Editor: Josh BennettOriginal music: BUTCH PIXYSocial Media: Laura CoughlanMarketing: Eleanore BamberExec Producer: Jemima RathboneExec Producers for Idle Industries: Dave Granger & Will MacdonaldSenior Exec Producer: Holly Newson Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hello, I'm Paloma Faith and this is my show. Each week I welcome someone fantastic into my home to talk about what makes them mad, sad and bad. Roll recording! I'm to have you on this. I can't tell you how excited I am to see this house. It's so beautiful. Honestly, you can look at any room you like.

No holds barred. You're my dream hostess, thank you. I always say to people when they come over, I'm like, just look around, walk around Rome. I actually left Melby in here and went out to work. Did you actually? When she was on the podcast. How long was she here?

Is she still here? No, she's not here anymore, but she was just like, you know, can I get to some bits? I said, just stay as long as you like. That's so nice. I can leave my back here. Come in. For you, she's an acclaimed novelist, journalist and non-fiction author. She became a fellow of the Royal Society of Literature in 2024, I praise.

She's the host of the wildly successful podcast, How to Fair. where she celebrates the things in life that haven't gone right with an array of fabulous guests, including me. Her podcast prowess knows no bounds as she launches her brand new podcast, How to Date, in February this year.

I'm hoping to sink my teeth into some of your dating nightmares today, Elizabeth. But to me, she was my introduction to podcasting, and this show actually wouldn't exist without her. Before she invited me on to How to Fail, I'd never even listen to a podcast, and she made it such an interesting, enjoyable experience and I love the format that I decided to start my own. So thank you very much

to the awesome and inspiring Elizabeth Day. I'm so lovely. I didn't know that. It's true. I'm so honoured. Thank you. That means so much to me. Well, you opened up the format to me, so thank you. It's a pleasure. Also, that's the first time I've had the Royal Society of Literature in an introduction and I'm thrilled. Thank you. Thank you. Yeah. You should think. I don't get to use it enough. It's like, should I put letters off to my name? No, because then I'd seem like a twat. When did you fall in love with podcasting, do you think? I can date it really exactly.

And I listened to Serial, the first season of serial when it came out. So that was probably the first podcast I listened to, and that was narrative, true crime, and I was kind of blown away by it. But it didn't make me listen to more podcasts in the same genre. It was just that was a standalone. But when I really got into the first, was when I finally got an Apple phone

and I finally understood that I just had to click on the podcast icon and then I could listen. And that happened at the end of 2017 and the reason I can date it so exactly is because I'd gone through a really difficult breakup a month previously. And then I went to L.A. to kind of put myself back together

and I couldn't listen to any music because it felt like it had particular persistence to my heartbreak. Yeah. You know that thing where you think you're starring in your own indie movie? Yeah, and everything you're like, he used to... Exactly. And it's like Kesha.

And you're like, yeah. Yes, Keshire. So I started listening to podcasts. And I started listening to Esther Perel's podcast, where should we begin? And that blew my mind because it made me realize that it is such an intimate and unique form. The kind of conversations you could have in the podcast space were not the kind that I was being commissioned to write in the newspaper space. at that time I was a newspaper interviewer and I really wanted to do something in podcasting

and so that's how I fell in love with the genre and then I launched How to Fail in July 2018 and it's absolutely brilliant I've listened to all of them since coming on it Oh my gosh, thank you. Yeah. Well, you were an amazing guest. Thank you.

Hopefully you will be but let's see. The pressure. So let's start with Madd. You've spoken a little bit about double standards. Yes, I think, I mean, let me be the first person to say that I think there are double standards when it comes to men and women. And I suppose I've definitely noticed that in the podcasting space actually, which is why I'm so thrilled that you're launching your own. Because although great strides be made in the rest of society, it feels like podcasting in the UK, the top of the chance is still overwhelmingly dominated by white middle-aged middle-class men who are mostly talking to each other about each other. And I don't really understand why that is.

And that's one of the things that has made me mad. I would like to know, have you ever met a woman who hasn't experienced double standards? And in particular, I've never met a woman who's not experienced sexual assault or inappropriate sexual comments or whatever. Like, when we talk about double standard, that jumped out into my head. Totally. I've never, it was funny when the Me Too campaign came out. and people were like, oh my God, this scandal.

And it was like, oh no, but we've all been living with that our whole lives. Like I've never met a woman who's not been sexually assaulted or abused or grote or commented on or worse. Not single one. I think you're completely right. And I was about to say exactly the same thing about the Me Too movement. Because I don't think I have met a woman who hasn't experienced double standard. in some way. However, I know that I've met women who don't categorize their experience as a double standard because of the way that we've been raised, the way that we've been socially conditioned,

so many of us, is to accept sexism as the price of admission. And so when Me Too happened, and actually it happened at the time I was just talking about when I started listening to podcasts, I was in LA when it was really gathering pace in kind of late 2017. And And I was witnessing all of these tweets go out into the world saying, you know, me too, this happened to me. And I thought to begin with, well, I'm really lucky because I've never been, I've never been the target of a horrendous sexual assault. And then the more that I was reading about other women's experience, the more I realized that I had also experienced what they were talking about. Yeah. It's just that I hadn't categorized it in that way.

I had just accepted it and been conditioned to accept it as part of being a woman. And so that was a really revolutionary moment for me, actually, where I thought, I looked back at my past and I thought about my early experiences as a print journalist in the kind of ailing days of Fleet Street. So I entered newspapers in 2001 and it was still, a lot of it was an old boys club

and there was still, you know, sexual comments, groping, sort of assumptions about how you got to where you got to, all of that sort of stuff just happened. And I thought it was normal. And it made me really reassess my past. Or at times you even saw it maybe as a compliment. Yeah. Like, because I've done, I look back and I thought, oh, I used to think that was quite not, like, not nice, but it played for in a bit, like, gives you a boost. But actually, it's terrible. Yes. And I think that's the thing. We can lie to ourselves. and tell ourselves it's playful. And then if we're really honest, actually there's part of us that's scared,

although it was part of me that was scared, which was, well, let me treat this as playful and flirty so that I don't anger this particular man. Because I might lose my job or whatever. Exactly. And that's the key. It's where the power dynamic is. And so if someone is in a position of power over you,

whether that's because of their role at work, or whether that's because of their gender and their place in society, that's when the quote-unquote playful flirting can become something so much more devastating. And so I think we've all absolutely experienced that. And I've really enjoyed being taught by younger women, by my younger sisters. Exactly.

Yeah, 100%. Like I had with this whole Chiselle Pelicot case, which was horrendous, I had like a flashback to a time when I was younger and I went out and I had half a glass of wine and then I can't really remember what happened after that and I woke up naked in someone's bed and only now that I'm an adult and that I'm talking about that case, do I have I worked out what might have happened because I have flashbacks and I have moments where I remember my face being on the floor of a bar like floor, which was nearby where he lived.

And then I remember some other things like staggering. And then I remember, and I woke up and I said to the person who I knew, oh, did we do anything? And he was like, no, no, no. I said, well, why am I naked? And he said, I just thought you'd be more comfortable sleeping without your going out clothes on. And then I staggered home and vomited for three days. And I just didn't think anything of it until this case.

and then you go, oh my God, that might have probably was. I was drugged. I'm so sorry. That's horrendous. That's the kind of thing we're talking about, though, where we just naturally go, oh, move on, because there's no memory of it. You know, like, and then you're like, oh my God, that's horrendous. Yeah.

First of all, I just want to say again, like, how sorry I am that you went through, that really traumatic experience. Yeah, but it's weird because I don't have a memory of it. I know. And also weird that it came up. up because of against Giselle Pellicoe and so clearly you had

buried it completely understandably and our bodies are so clever in the way that they deal with trauma but that must require a lot of unpacking and I'm really sorry that happened to you oh thank you and I think there is still a really

harmful tendency to look to blame someone and very often it's the woman who's blamed and that's why it is so difficult to prosecute rape cases, for instance, because women are only too aware that they might be put on the stand and have their personal lives trawled. And by the time they're on the stand,

they've probably had to repeat the story a good sort of 30 times before they've even got to the stand stage. And as you've just shown, which is traumatic. Which is traumatic. And as you've just shown, trauma also has a way of blanking out and fragmenting your memories. So it's very difficult sometimes to make a coherent narrative. And, you know, examples such as judges blaming what the survivor of sexual assault was wearing, all of this stuff is so embedded in how we treat women. I was going to ask you about, you know, when it comes to sort of double standards in the public eye, I guess you could sort of align it with a witch hunt in a way.

Like, so if you observe like the way that the media would report on a wood, woman, for example, I've got a little list, like, would report on a woman who was a high achiever or an adulteress or used alcohol or drugs or was not a great parent or whatever. It's so much different to if a male, like, person, public facing person was reported on, they'd be like, oh, he's off the rails again. No mention of the fact that he's a father or, you know, like, all these things, like, oh, he's, you know, he's had a separation. from his wife, no mention of the fact that he had affairs constantly or whatever. But if it was a woman, she'd be made like a spectacle of in a sort of witch-hunting, quite

medieval way. 100%. And I think what links all of this is shame and blame. And in terms of double standards in public life, I've seen it recently with certain A-list male celebrities who have been accused of, and obviously it's an allegation of abuse, and yet they are still heralded on the red carpet, and they're still getting front covers. And if that were a female celebrity, it would absolutely be totally different.

The career would be over. Your career would be over, and if you look at the unbelievably tragic case of Caroline Flack, sometimes it's not just the career that ends. Yeah. And that was someone, again, who was, so horribly pilloried for having made a mistake. And I think so much about her family and the grief they must go through every single day, knowing how their daughter and their sister was treated

by the media. And again, you look at political leaders, Boris Johnson, no one knows how many children he has exactly. And that's somehow okay? And it also laughed about us a bit of a joke. Yes. Because his hair's all made. messy and isn't he a character? Yeah. Well, I don't think, and this isn't a political statement, so no matter what you think of their politics, Theresa May and his trust would not have got away with that.

Can you imagine? Yes. Yeah. Such a great point, I agree. So that definitely makes me mad. And the other thing that makes you mad, all right, she's on one now, is that women have to be careful about how they express their anger.

Because if they express their anger, express their anger in a way that isn't deemed sort of palatable, then you get labeled crazy or witchlike or hysterical. And as you know, the word hysterical comes from the Latin for womb. So it's this sense that we are just sort of at the behest and mercy of our crazy female ways. Or hormones. Yeah. Everyone's blaming hormones. Yes. And actually very often I think anger is so powerful and is a way... And healthy. It's so healthy.

It's so healthy. It's so healthy. And sometimes it's all we have in order to protect ourselves. You mentioned at some point that you were prone to road rage. Yes. Do you feel like that's healthy anger? I actually do, for over. Tell me about it.

I do. Is that where you take your actual literal anger and then find a place for it? Yes. Which is probably quite good for you. I think it's quite healthy. I think. Exactly. I'm someone who was raised never really to show my anger.

And very often when that happens, you turn it inwards and you start hating yourself. And as I've grown older, I've understood how rage can actually be really healthy. And it can also be showing you something that needs to change in your life. However, I'm not always able to express it easily. And so when I get behind the wheel of a car, and actually I don't even have to be driving, I'm also a really, really supportive passenger because I'll be like, if anyone cuts in front of me or just treats me badly on the road, I will use swear words that you have never heard of in like eight different languages. It suddenly just all comes out with me. I just...

You're fluent in swearing in many. I'm fluent in swearing behind the wheel of a car, yes. And that's where it all comes out. And then I part the car badly. And so I'm closed the door and then I'm just calm again. Have you ever been accused of being mad when you're in your road rage state? I think

I think some people are kind of taken aback because it seems so unlike me. So yet I've definitely had partners be like, oh my God, calm bad. Oh so you'll do it even with a passenger in time. Yes. I want to make clear I've never got out of the car and got physical.

It's purely verbal. It's purely verbal anger. Actually, the other thing that enrages me sometimes is when I'm walking along a crowded street and there's someone walking so slowly in front of me and not paying attention to the space around them. And sometimes I will mutter under my breath. And I think it's internal and it's not.

And sometimes I will mutter more loudly. Yeah, some various where words. And I have had people turn around and be like, all right. Do you get worried? All right, love. Or you ready for action? I get, I then feel immediately apologetic. Yeah.

This is the most British thing about me. They'll immediately apologising and like, oh my God, I hope they didn't realise that it's like, how to fail's Elizabeth Day. Who's meant to be really touchy-feely and nice? Which you can be, you're multiple. Yes, we can tell you multitudes, Palomey also, right? Yes.

I'm going to move on to Sad. Okay. It's a big jump. Yeah. Would you like to tell me what, you know, what was your really sad thing? I think sadness, like rage, gets a bad press in that I think that there are people who live their lives trying to avoid it. And that's completely understandable because who wants to feel sad or in pain. And yet there's something about living with the experience of sadness that has taught me so much about life.

and that's why I can talk about it and why I'm actually ironically really happy to talk about it. Yeah. And my biggest sadness is the fact that I don't have children and I won't ever have children. And I had 12 years of unsuccessful fertility treatment and recurrent miscarriage, which I know we've spoken about for. And the saddest point was at the end of those 12 years,

years, my partner and I decided to do a round of egg donation and we went to a clinic in LA, which came highly recommended and was on the cutting edge of this kind of fertility medicine. And the process of finding an egg donor in and of itself was very stressful and also emotional, extremely emotional. There's a lot of stuff that you have to come to terms with when you're doing it. But we went through all of that and I was doing all of the quote unquote, right things. You know, I was eating while I was taking the drugs. I was, I wasn't meditating. I was about to say that. I was about to lie about the fact that I was meditating. I wasn't meditating. You were doing very holistic. I was doing very holistic things. I was having acupuncture.

I'd been to a shame and all of that sort of stuff. And then we went through the process and I was getting all of the pregnancy symptoms. And so I really thought, okay, this is it. And this is why we had to go through all of this stuff in advance of this experience is because this is the child, this is the baby. And then as anyone who has done a similar thing will know, there's a two-week wait. It was actually 10 days for us. And then I went back to the clinic and I had my bloods taken. And then later that day, I got an email from the clinic saying, you're not pregnant, see-saw medication. And it was so brutal. And I cannot. believe that they told me by email. I still can't really get over that. Did they know it was your last

try? And actually I didn't know that it was at the time either. But that was really difficult and devastating. And I was in LA and just in my partner, I'd had to come back for work. And so I was there on my own. And I'm lucky that I have amazing friends there and one of them, Joan, made me a massive vodka martini after I got the email. Because I had to come back for work. And so I was there on my own. And I'm lucky that I'm hadn't been drinking. And I remember I hadn't been drinking over Christmas. And for someone who does like the old dirty martini, a sober Christmas with a family, it's just like not where it's at. Anyway. And I remember going back to my Airbnb that night and just feeling so sad. And actually, there's just no other word for it. I was so sad I could barely sleep. And it's the first time I've

had that experience of sort of being kept awake by grief. And it was a really sad. It was a really difficult night. And then Justin, which is why I'm so blessed to be married to him, flew out without my even having to ask and was like, it's really important for us to be together. And we got through it together. And I have processed a lot. And we had conversations about whether we wanted to continue. And there are various factors that went into play that I won't go into here, but it was the right decision for us and for me to stop. And that was another wave of sadness. but having got through it, I am now really at peace with it. I'm really at peace with the fact that we went as far as we could on that journey for us.

And although I will always be sad that I don't have the experience of biological motherhood, I can live alongside that sadness and I can live a fulfilling and meaningful life. And I can parent in other ways and I can create in other ways. and I feel that that's magical. I never thought that I would feel this way, but I do, and I'm really passionate about sharing that in case there's anyone listening who is stuck in the middle of something right now,

in the middle of fertility treatment or miscarriage or fear, that actually there is hope on the other side of this. That's wonderful. Do you think that when something really sad that's as impactful as that happens, that you always carry it with you? Definitely. The metaphor that I reached for when I was trying to explain it

was a big pot of white paint and a droplet of red paint is a droplet of red falls into the white and you stare it round and the white paint is forever changed. It becomes a version of pink. And it will never be white again. but it doesn't mean it's a bad thing because actually it just gives you a different colour

and a different perspective on life. I've completely made that very inelegant and inelquent. But you get what I mean. No, it is. But I think about, so I look at, when I'm thinking about sadness, just in general, I think about all those famous photographs of Marilyn Monroe that, like, you can see some sadness in our eyes

and those photos are so iconic and so beautiful. and they're my favourite photos of her. And in a way I feel like, just personally, when I think about, you know, amazing women that I admire or all those amazing photos of women that we've lost or whatever, I always feel that for me, there's something sort of profoundly beautiful about their sadness or the sadness in their eyes. Or, you know, even when I think about music or,

writing or whatever, like experience really informs something quite beautiful. Yeah. And when you've like lost something that you wanted so much, in a way you give birth to something which is like a different version of yourself, which is like quite extraordinary. And you've become quite an extraordinary person probably as a result of all those things. That is so beautiful. No. Thank you.

Thank you for saying that. That's so useful. You're amazing. You're, you know, that's how you've built your career on being amazing at connecting with people. So maybe you wouldn't have been able to do that had you not, you know, you don't know. Yeah, I think you're right. And the funny thing was that when I made the decision to let go of the idea of motherhood, it felt as though I were removing an obstacle. I actually felt so much more aligned with what my path was meant to be. And I've never said that before, but it's so true.

And I had an amazing psychic reading. Oh, did you? Yeah. And it honestly... When was it? I had this, like, so the failed egg donation round, we learned it was a failure in like January, beginning of, January 2023. Is that right? Yeah. Yeah. And I had the psychic reading in February. So I was really,

I was rattling around like an emotional pinball. I just didn't know what to do next. And a very good friend of mine recommended this incredible psychic. And the first thing she said was, will you love words? Oh, wow. And then the rest of it just came. And she said this incredibly powerful thing to me, where she said, I think, you're grappling with letting go of a lifelong desire and you're not sure whether to let it go. Just that resonate. I said, yes. Should I don't know if it's to do with children, but if it is, I firmly believe that you were a mother in a past life and you were the mother of six and it almost undid you. Yeah. And this life has been offered to you to live on your own terms. And that's why if you've tried to have children in the past,

you might have been confronted with fertility issues or miscarriage because it's important that you're here doing what you're doing and living this life as you're meant to live it. And it really resonated with me. That's astonishing, isn't it? And honestly, Palloma, from that moment, I was at peace with it. It was the weirdest thing, this thing that had really obsessed me,

colored my every interaction for over a decade, I could let go of it. And when she said, I think you've been a mother in my past life, and I think you've been the mother of six, I actually had three miscarriages and three rounds of fertility treatment, and so that kind of made sense. I was like, oh, it feels like it's appropriate to stop. So thank you to that psychic.

She sounds amazing. She is. Just one question on fertility. Do you think that there's a right way for people to approach your sadness about that? because I think people are quite sort of tentative. They're not sure how to approach a woman who is openly saying, I wanted children and then I wasn't able to to a point where it was enough trying. And then I resolved that I couldn't.

Is there a way that people can approach that that's wrong? What's the right or wrong thing to say? That's a really generous and thoughtful question. So thank you for asking it. And I can talk about my experience of it, and it will be different for everyone. But when I was going through fertility treatment, it really did demarcate the friends who were there and the friends who just didn't get it. And very often women and men are going through fertility treatment at precisely the moment that most of their contemporaries seem to be, yeah, having babies really easily. And so one of the things I would say is you are not going to upset someone.

by bringing it up. I promise you that they are living with this day by day. And thinking about it anyway. All the time, exactly. And actually just saying something like, hmm, I'm so sorry that you're going through this is enough on a perfect sentence or something like, I can't hope to imagine, but I want you to know that I'm here for you in any way that you need. And that's it. It's sort of enough. It's just someone acknowledging that your pain is valid is really important. What isn't great or what wasn't great for me was someone saying, oh, come around and hang out with the kids. Why don't you babysit my baby?

Because that'll be good practice for you. And often it's so well-intentioned. But for me, that was the last thing I wanted to do because it was like being confronted with the thing that I wanted most of all that I couldn't have. And so that was really difficult. And now I get people being just really truthful saying, obviously I love my kids.

But, yeah, there's always that. And I'm like, tell me. And actually, that's been really helpful for me as well. So one of my friends said, you know, my most, my highest value is freedom. And it's the thing that is most restricted by having children. Yeah. And another friend said, you know,

if you love your partner and you have a healthy relationship and you have children within that, you still love your partner, but it's like they're in a different room in the house perpetually and you can't ever fully get to them. And just things like that have actually been very helpful because it's made me so grateful for what I do have. I do have freedom and I do have a loving relationship

and we can choose to spend time together and we can choose to go on holiday. And those are all good things. And I'm not minimizing someone's grief or... No. But it's good to be grateful. Somebody was actually shot yesterday because I said to them,

oh, I don't think it's... It's necessarily a good idea to have a child and stay with the child's part, other parent. And they were like, what do you mean? And I was like, well, I get my two days of a week. I get two days off that I look forward to where they're not here. Yeah. And then the person was like, as if I'd sort of said that this was terrible. And I'm like, don't get me wrong.

Of course I have them. But like, those two days are my, sometimes my favorite day. Yeah. Because it's the freedom that you talk about or the spontaneity or to be able to go, yeah, I'm going to go. Like the other day I was on Saturday, and I bumped into someone in the street and they said, well, I'm going to a party, do you want to come?

And I walked halfway there because I could and then I realized I didn't really want to go to the party. And I just turned around. Sorry, that's the perfect story. That's the perfect story because you get all of the joy of knowing you could have been spontaneous. Yeah. And then all of the joy of the introverture.

of just like, no, actually, I just want to go to bed. Yeah, I did just go to bed. Have you ever cried in public? Oh my God, all the time. Are you kidding? Have you? How do you feel comfortable doing that? Or do you feel like you need to hide?

That was such an interesting question. I mean, I cry, it depends how you're defining public. So I cry a lot on my podcast, for instance. Yeah. But that's like, you're quite a moved person. But I mean like floods and tears in a city. Yes. In a situation where you're kind of probably, it's a bit inappropriate.

I have done that and I've basically done it when I've been heartbroken. So breakups. I honestly think breakups are a really difficult form of grief. They really are so tough. And I definitely remember being on the Jubilee line once. Just like, just sobbing. Did anyone ask you? No.

Because it was the London Tube. So everyone was like, oh, let's not look at her. No, but I actually have had really lovely interactions with strangers. Sometimes if you fall over, sometimes in the street and I'll be heaving, and then it makes it sound like it happens all the time. But I've definitely had some lovely strangers that help me in moments like that. And I don't feel bad about crying in public at all. Again, because it's part of what it is to be human.

And I would definitely, if I saw me or someone like me, on the tube and I have, I would say you're okay. Do you need something? Yeah. Yeah. How do you feel about men crying? All for it. You love it.

Well, I mean, not if it's causing them bad. A lot of they're in pain. No. But like emotionally. Yeah. I think it's so important for everyone of any gender to be in touch with how they're feeling. And the great thing about crying when you're feeling sad

is that you are processing it in that your clever body is processing something and it means that you're not in denial and you're not storing it up for a later massive issue. And so Justin, my husband cries more than I do. In a way that I'm a bit competitive about, to be honest, because I always thought... You've had a cry, I haven't had a cry this week.

But I always cry at films and I always thought I was a weeper and then I met him. I was like, oh, I've got nothing on him. And I actually think that's... I think it's great, because, it just means that I know that when I talk to him about how I'm feeling he'll get it and vice versa. Let's move on to bed. So we've touched a little bit on breakup. So the ending of relationships.

So you had a big divorce. I've also had a big breakup with the father of my kids and written about it. And so I think it would be good to sort of touch on that. But then I'd love also to talk about the beginning when we have bad date. Yes. Okay. So bad. The thing that came to mind most quickly for me when I was thinking about this was getting divorced in my mid-30s and that's not because it was a bad decision far from it it was definitely the right thing and there was a sense of shame attached to it because of the idea of marriage in my head yeah and I felt bad as in I haven't behaved appropriately as I should have done as a sort of socially conditioned quote unquote perfect woman yeah who is meant to just stay married

and put up and shut up and be the perfect wife and all of that sort of stuff. And I did feel that I failed. And I'm just being really honest about that because I don't think that now and I have very different ideas about what fulfilling relationships are and what marriage is. But at the time, I felt that I'd done something bad. So that's definitely what came up for me. And also I think, you know, having spoken to you and what little I know,

I think we're quite similar in the sense that the word bad is quite uncomfortable for me because I don't think I've ever really been bad in the kind of cliche way. Like, I've always been a little bit of a goody two shoes. Yeah. Never really done, like, what would be expected of me as like a rock and roll star. I, like, haven't done any drugs or got drunk. I mean, it's around me everywhere because it's my industry. But I've always just been, like, quite like, I am the prize.

I just want to learn. I just want to live and, like, digest information. And so I've also been called. bad quite often just for being authentic. Because it's kind of a strange thing. So people would be like, do this and I'll go, no, I don't think I want to do. And I say, that's the rules. And I say, well, I'm not comfortable with that.

So I'm not going to do it. And then people are like, oh, that's bad. But it's like, is it bad or is it just authentic? So I guess also breakups in a way are lending yourself to your most authentic self, where you're like, I'm not happy. Yeah. So I'm going to make a very authentic decision to remove myself from the, you know, this relationship.

It's not good for me or whatever. I think you've nailed it because I think growing up, I confused approval for good behavior with love. So doing well at school, being polite, being well behaved at home, that got me. adult's approval and I thought that was love and I carried on thinking it for ages and that had a really negative impact on the way I approached relationships and life and life in general I was like of

yeah I mean my default is absolutely let me say yes and let me make that as easy as possible for you everyone else but not me yes and let me forget what I want and in my 20s I was a sickening people pleaser. I mean, it actually makes me feel sick to look back on it because you think people please are, oh, how lovely, how kind and how thoughtful. But ultimately, for me, it was quite selfish, I think, looking back, because I was trying to control other people's perceptions of me. And I was kind of outsourcing my sense of self to what other, what I thought other people wanted of me. And it meant that I just lost complete touch with my desires. To the extent that, I always remember this, dating a very nice boyfriend in my 20s. And he said, I'd

like, where do you want to go for lunch? And I'd be like, I don't know where do you want to go. And I literally did not know because I didn't want to claim my desire. I didn't want to say I'd like to go to Nando's. Yeah. In case he didn't want to and then he think badly of me.

Yeah. It's so fucked up. There's a brilliant bit in, and we were speaking about the film Baby Girl, but there's a brilliant bit in it where she has this revelation that she's been, he says, she says sorry to, her husband says sorry to her because sexually she's been unfulfilled for 19 years

and she says it's my fault I've been pretending to be somebody else for the whole marriage. I feel like that's what you're touching on a bit like it's almost like you sacrifice yourself to such a degree that it's almost like they're not even falling in love with you because they couldn't know who you are. Totally and there were so many things I related to in baby girl. and I remember that scene exactly. And then she says,

and I was angry with you for not knowing who I was, even though she made it impossible for him to know. Yeah. And I'm sure it's the case for lots of women and maybe men too. There's a sense of sort of protection. It's a protection mechanism. Like if no one really knows who I am, then I'm going to be safe. Because if they discover who I am

and they discover that I'm mad, bad and sad, then they're going to run a mile. And actually, that does not serve you. not being authentic in a relationship is far more likely to break that relationship up. Yeah, when they finally realise, or you finally reveal yourselves to each other. Do you want to tell me a bad date?

I 100% want to tell you all about bad dates. Because I can't wait for your podcast. Oh, you're so sweet. Thank you. Well, I don't know about you, but I want to put work out into the world that would have helped me when I was going through the stuff. Yeah.

And so I was really passionate about launching how to fail because I felt like a failure at the time that I launched it. And then I launched a podcast called How to Write a Book. And I was passionate about that because when I first row book, I didn't really know what I was doing. And now it's How to Date, which I'm co-hosting with Mel Schilling. And if I had had this in my late 30s when I was on Bumble and OKCupid and having real life hookups,

it would have helped me so much. And it would have helped me navigate just the, the series of disappointments that my online dating experience was until the final one, which we'll get onto. But yeah, I just found it horrendous and I know it's got even worse. But I've got a lot of bad ones and I'm sure you had lots of bad ones. Actually, very often the really bad ones are quite middle of the road because exactly as you said, I was so capable of inventing the most glorious narrative about what this person would be in, how it was meant to be in, it was fate and everything it led me to this

before even meeting. And I had to stop myself from Googling. I sort of had a rule that I wouldn't do that. But my best friend Emma, who I mentioned earlier, is like a lady detective. And was Googling. She was incredible. I would give her the name.

I'd be like, he's called Tom and he's a cameraman. And she'd call me back in like 20 minutes, be like, did he tell you about his nine-month-old baby in the Hebrides? And I was like, no. How did you find this out? I love her. I know. It was amazing.

Yeah, very often the worst dates are the ones where you've built it up in your head and then you meet them and you walk in. And they have put a really flattering photo of themselves on the app. And then you walk in and you instantly realise there's no chemistry or server. Also, I'm not being like, you know, I'm quite a small person. So that doesn't happen to me as often. But you're quite a tall lady. I am. I'm sure that you arrived on some dates with people that were like up to here on you.

I did. Which isn't that attractive for you. I think that they are, you know, I love a short. But I did have a date with someone who was considerably shorter than I was. And I really liked him. And I spent a lot of time Googling celebrity height differences. Deliberated. Nicole Kidman, Keith Urban, Nicola Sarkozy, Carla Bruni, Sophie Dahl, Jamie Cullum.

And so I made myself feel okay about it. But when we came to kiss, it was just a logistical thing. I just did not know what to do with my hands. And in the end, I ended up... Put them on his shoulders. Yeah. Did you? Oh, no.

Just like resting them gently on his shoulders And it felt really, I was like, this is, I just, It was the first time it happened. It was like a dog could put his four legs on your shoulders Like a great day. Then you were like. Or like one of those trays. You know, there's like a dog trays where you get a little dog standing up

and they've got a tray that you put your cocktail on. It was like that. That's bad. But I remember one particularly bad one. And he was quite intense. very quickly to the extent that it goes back to what we were talking about

that I felt I owed him something he was sort of treating me like a girlfriend two dates in and I remember on our third or fourth date we went out and I was a bit right in my head I was like but it's nice to be needed isn't it? It's nice to be wanted even though it felt quite

oppressive. Yeah. Red flag number one staying with his parents and I went back to mine and then he came round later and he buzzed on the buzzer downstairs on the intercom and I let him up and he appeared at my door with a rolled up futon under his arm I was like oh are you going somewhere he's like no

I just find your bed really uncomfortable so I brought my own because I've got lower back pain I was like okay I'm so he came in and this is like I'm so ashamed to admit it but but we had sex and then And then he just like rolled off the bed onto this laid out futon like he was a sort of faithful dog breathing his last breath.

Oh my next to your bed. Next to my bed. Oh. And I was in a tiny flat and there was actually only around sort of a foot between the bed and the window. And he was sort of down there. It was so strange.

And I remember trying to convince myself that it was okay and normal. And I was like, you know, it's... That's what we do there. That's the problem is like ignoring the signal. I was like, you know, but it's actually it's really good that he understands his needs and that he's taking positive action to ensure that his lumbus spine is in neutral. Like, good for him.

I could love for it. Anyway, I remember falling asleep and then waking up with a start in the middle of the night, like sitting bolt up right in my bed. And there was this clear, calm voice in my head saying, this man cannot be your boyfriend. Yeah. Get out now. And what are you doing?

And I just had this moment of clarity. And I woke up the next morning and I said, oh, can we talk? He was like, I can't talk right now. I need to get back. I need to roll out my food on and go. Can we speak later? And then I called him on the phone. He was like, I can't talk right now.

I need to go to loo. Can I call you back? I was like, and then he was like, I think I know where this conversation is going. Can we meet in person? So then we meet. Oh my God, he was really dragging it out. It was so intense. So then we meet a couple of hours later in this local coffee shop.

And I say, you know, it's not... I just want to say for the listeners, it's a shame that you didn't say no at that point before having to meet in person. Like, no, actually, I need to say this now. Yes. Because it's important. Exactly that.

And if I did it again, Exactly. You do not have to do that. No, you don't owe anyone anything. Yes. You can say no at the point they turn up with a futon. They turn up with a camp bed. Like, just say no then.

Anyway, we do not. met in person and I said, you know, this is the situation. I'm just not ready. And he said, well, as long as you don't change your mind, because in six months' time, your ovaries will have dried up and I won't be interested. And I was like, okay, I was right to make this call. I was right to make this call. You were so right. I think, like, sort of to round that whole kind of advice bit up and obviously everyone's got to listen to your podcast to get proper advice. Thank you. But like, I would say definitely the thing about your gut instinct. Yeah. And how we've like become attuned to sort of ignoring our gut instinct.

And you're usually right? Like I actually, one of the podcasts from this series where I spoke to Mel B, realized that I've dodged a few bullets because she talks about coercive control and how she ended up in an abusive relationship. And I was listening to her say, oh, these were the early signs and I ignored them.

And I was like, thank God I didn't ignore them in certain people that I did date. Because I had a gut feeling like, this doesn't feel, this feels a bit top. or whatever. Part of the serious reason behind how to date is that we are on a mission, men and I, to make dating better. And we've got this good dating pledge that you can sign up to on the podclass.com.com.uk. And it's full of things like, you know, I commit to never ghost. I commit to clear communication. Yeah. And that starts with yourself. It starts with trusting

yourself and communicating clearly with yourself. Because ultimately, if we make dating better, it serves everyone. It's good dating calmer. If you can have clear communication with that person, it might make them into a better data for the next person who goes on a date with them. Yeah. And so we're really passionate about that. I love, I'm going to sign me up.

Oh, but I'm excited about your new. Well, let's see. Are you boyfriend, girl friends? Boy. Okay. Let's see. TBC. So, just to end, I like to end on a high because they've all been quite high with you,

I think, actually. But glad. Just because it rhymes. What makes you glad? My cat makes me glad. I love my cat so much. More than Justin? Well, it's a close one. No, I think Justin just about edges it.

But at the moment, Justin's away for work. And so Huxley, our cat, has really been looking after me. He's such a protector. And it's like he goes around the house with a little clipboard, not literally, but I can imagine him like that. He just likes to check up on me and check up where I am. and that I'm okay, and then he can go down and have a little sleep because he's had a very busy day. Yeah.

And I just really enjoy his company. And he's a great cat. He's very sociable. He's never ever scratched me or anyone. And he's just really cuddly. And he's the cat that converts dog people to cat them, which I know everyone says about their cat, but it's actually true with Huxley. He's very, very sociable.

And so he makes me very glad when I get to just ruffle his fluffy tummy. It's the simple pleasures. It is. Yeah. Thank you so much for coming on this podcast. And it was nerve-wracking because you are my favourite podcaster. Oh, Paloma. So I'm really honoured to have you and you've been amazing.

I'm so flattered. Thank you so much for having me on. And this has been such an amazing conversation as it always is with you. So thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Oh, my gosh. Thank you so much.

Honestly. So much fun. The roller coaster of life. I know. This was an excellent date. It was one of my favorite date. See what I did that? I wish they were all like you.

Ditto. Thank you, darling. Thank you so much. Get home safely. I will. It's a bit of a trek. Take care. Bye.

Life goals. Well, wasn't that great? All of the links of everything we mentioned in the show can be found in the episode description. Oh, and while you're there, why not subscribe and follow the show too. See you all next time. Later's potatoes.