Mad, Sad and Bad with Paloma Faith - Estelle: Women Hold The World Together

Episode Date: August 18, 2025

Estelle is an artist I’ve always looked up to - she can rap, she can sing, she can write - she’s conquered America but she’s a London girl at heart, so I was really excited to have her over to mine.After the phenomenal success of ‘American Boy’, Estelle shot to dizzying and mad heights of fame - we talk about the insanity of touring and how she made opportunity for herself, taking a chance and introducing herself to Kanye West. Estelle shares with me the pain of losing her grandmother and we discuss the power of a strong matriarch in a family unit.I also ask Estelle about her current relations with American Boys and introduce her to one of my own (NB might actually be from Bromley…)Also thanks to my mate, Seye Adelekan for playing so beautifully to us - you can follow him here: www.instagram.com/seyemusic#ESTELLE #PALOMAFAITH #MADSADBAD—Find us on: Instagram / TikTok / YouTube—Credits:Producer: Jemima RathboneVideo: Grisha Nikolsky & Josh BennettSound: Shane O'BryneMix: Rafi AmsiliOriginal music: BUTCH PIXYSocial Media: Laura CoughlanExec Producer for JamPot: Jemima RathboneExec Producers for Idle Industries: Dave Granger & Will Macdonald Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hello, I'm Paloma Faith and this is my show. Each week I welcome someone fantastic into my home to talk about what makes them mad, sad and bad. Roll recording. Thank you, Doris. Glomerate. Mad I. For you, she's a Grammy Award winning artist known worldwide for her biggest hit, American boy featuring Kanye West, which has had more than 890 million streams.

She founded her own record label, age 18. and has gone on to release five albums with her six albums Stay Outer being out now. She's also an actress appearing in huge shows including Girls Trip. But to me she's a rapper I always looked up to when I was younger. Then when she came out with her second album Shine, I heard her sing and I was flawed. When I first met her, I was at So House Festival and I thought I'd made it because I'd never been anywhere so posh before. So when I actually met her, I'd just eaten six lobsters, 24 oysters, six wagu beef steaks and a rack of lamb, while my friend and backing vocalist, Baby, who's been on this show before, was vomiting in the toilet because she'd eaten the same as me.

I just didn't know when I'd get my next meal. It's Estelle! What? Like 24. I ate so much food. It was that. kind of night. It was that kind of day.

I do remember that festival. As you say, I was like, oh yeah. I can't believe how much posh food they had. It's a little house, though, isn't it? I know, but I'd never been to a sowhouse before at that point. So I was like, oh my God. Everywhere there's things, you know. And baby, he's one of my backing singers, but also best friend.

She's from West London as well, and I'm from East. And we just went around like, covering food up. Some of that. Give me that. Give me that. Yeah. What kind of time? I was full when I met you.

Very full. I'm happy about that. That makes me happy you ate. You were good. You're releasing your new album or you've released Stay Outer. Yeah. And why after six years? It was time.

I think I was pretty much ready to just be like, okay, it's been fun. It's been great. As in finish? Yeah, I'll just do Legacy now and do other things, you know. What inspired you to do? Well, I just kept coming back up with songs. I was at the house singing. And I think maybe 2018, and I tell the story that I felt like everything felt dark in 2018.

All the music that was coming out just felt like, you know, literally just felt like that. And I was like, I don't want to, I want to perform my shows and perform my songs and have fun with it. And so. Uplist people. Yeah, I was like, I just want to, I think there needs to be a bit more joy in the world. And I kept saying that. And, you know, there's always the thing. When you say it too much, it's like, well,

do it. Yeah. You're talking about it. Be the change you want to see. And so I was like, okay, time to get back in. And then I found myself back in. It was just, the songs kept pouring out of me. All the sessions, majority of them were recorded in, throughout the Panini, the pandemic.

And I was, it was four hours every single time. It was easy. It wasn't, it didn't feel stressful. And it just felt like fun. And I was like, this is, this is it. This is the time. Putting some positivity into the world. Yeah.

Why not? Yeah, it's trying to make us feel like everything's shit. I remember being quite young going to work with Farrell and I was like in my kind of like just introspective, everything's dark and sad and I went to work with him and I said, he said, what do you like to write about? And I said, well, I'm quite introspective. I'm like depressed and he went, I don't.

He was like, why? And it was just before he released happy. And he said, I don't know why we don't. right about being happy more and then he was like why aren't we bringing joy and I was like I don't know how to and then he was and then about a month after that it dropped and I was like oh he was on that trajectory yeah it's really that um I think personally I had gone through not gone through nothing crazy where it was like oh I had a breakdown but I had to rethink everything that I had been raised with I feel like you get to a certain age and I was like well life doesn't

necessarily feel like that for me. Why am I still operating like that? Yeah. Put out what you want back. What I want back? But it was also like, what are you living and how are you, how does that translate into the things that you say, the way you move through life? And I realized that my life was different to the way that it was perceived, you know,

the way that I had been acting like it was. And so I made an effort to get on page with my actual life. What do you think your upbringing taught you, though? No, it was more survival. Survival, yeah. Do what you had to do. And then, you know, after a certain point when you've done what you've had to do and you've gotten, it becomes like, why am I still acting like I have to do what I have to do?

Let me actually live. Fight or flight. Yeah, let me live now. Yeah. And so that was the process. Or enjoying the moment rather than looking beyond and the next thing or looking back to what happened. Exactly. Being really present. Yeah. And just finding joy.

But I feel like as a creative, like as an artist, sometimes, as I said before with my experience, it's easy to get trapped in that because you feel like it's more inspiring or something. That's what we're told. Yeah, we're told that those are the songs that sell and then, but we forget like. It's crazy. It's not that it doesn't sell. It's just that. We are family is one of the greatest songs of all time.

Or like, all the earth and the fire songs are like the joy, September is about everything and nothing. Yeah. And it's joyful. It's singing about the 21st of September. What? And it's, and I love. that record. They are the greatest group of all time, one of the greatest of all times to me. But they're singing about the 21st of September. It's joyful, happy, just that I remember.

Yeah, it's so nice. Like, it's fun. It's just good vibes. People want that more than they want the sad. And I refuse to believe what they're telling us, you know? They. The villains. They. The villains, no. I mean, it works as money. I get it. But I understand that. Joy works. it really works. Moving on to mad, you've had quite a mad lie. Is it true that you approached Kanye in a restaurant? I did, I did.

Wow, that's mad. But he was, I mean... What gave you that confident? My belief in myself and do what I had to do. But also, I pray for things and then they appear. And so I kind of look at myself like, now you cannot be a punk. Yeah. You cannot be an absolute...

It's an opportunity. Yeah. I always, people always say to me, like, how much of your success is luck, how much of your success is talent, how much, and I always say, like, the one thing I think makes successful people is when people recognized an opportunity and took the opportunity. Yeah. So some people would see Kanye in a restaurant and just walk past and go, oh my God, I just saw Kanye. I can't go over. But you, something in you, made you go in there. Well, I went in to order my food and he was there.

Yeah. And I go outside to wait for it to come and I prayed like, God, please. All of this, I've been listening to his music. I've been listening to the mixtapes. I'd heard John and I had this very strong feeling, physical reaction. Like, I need to work with this guy. I would just be full of joy, full of happiness. And I recognize that.

And so my energy was like, I need to, I have to work with him on this record. I made the song. And I was like, I don't know when and how, but I really want to. him to sing the hook. I'm going to find him somehow and I'm going to get him to sing this hook. There's a song called Hey Girl from the 18th day. And him being in the I didn't know what he looked like.

It was way before Get Lifted. He was still working on Get Lifted. So it was John Legend. But I didn't know what he looked like. But you just said it was Kanye in the restaurant. So they were both sitting. No, so this is it. They were both there. They were both sitting in a restaurant. I didn't know what he looked like. Oh.

I walk outside and Kanye comes out of the restaurant and I was like I don't know what he looked like. You know, great to meet you. I don't know what John's, you know, I know his voice and I really want to work on a record with him. I know he's signed to you. How? He said, well, come to the studio, meet him.

And it went from there. I didn't know what he looked like. Even in the studio, I sat talking to him because he was just some guy. I was like, so I'm waiting to meet this guy. And it blossomed into, you know, a great musical friendship. And then signed to him and Shine came along. That's quite mad. Yeah.

And so now do you have an American boy? I'm dating. fun. Are you? Several or one? Oh, one. It's just like too much focus. There's too many things happening.

I'm too growing for that. I'm glad that you've got yourself a nice American boy. But I actually got someone here who might make a replacement. Wait, what about? What is happening right now? What is this? What's happening right now? What is going on?

Oh, my word. Oh, wow. It was the high note for me. It was great. How are you? Hot dog and hot dance. Jesus. This is where we are.

My question. Jesus, hot dogs. Jesus, hot dogs and juice. What is happening? What? In a cowboy. We're just mixing up the format. Okay.

So the question is, and this is a big one for you. Howdy. Howdy. What's your name? Shade. Hi, Shea. So the question is, can you tell he's a real American boy and who's not a real American? You know, I feel like I can.

I'm not sure if he is. I just feel like the howdy said me. What are you saying? What about that hat? The howdy he sent me. It's not that you're not in an outfit. I'm from Broadway. I felt like it.

You're right. I'm not quite. Not quite. We just thought we'd see whether you could actually tell because you've been there long enough. Yeah. And to me, I was totally false. I thought Shay was completely legit American. Yeah.

So, talk to me, Shay. Talk to me. You know what? We've actually met before. Yeah. Back in 2008, do you remember a singer called Leon John Marie? Because he opened for you on your tour in 2008 and I was in his last. 2008 and I was in his band.

Jesus. I'm sorry, I'm taking the Lord's name and playing. Oh, my. Well, hello again. Yeah, hello again. Nice to meet you. It was a great tool. No, but Shay used to play with me and he's played with, he plays with guerrillas now.

He's in guerrillas. But with old friends, aren't you? Yeah, very old friends. And I live up the road and pee was like, pop in. I just called him. I was like, can you pretend to be American? Hilarious. Yeah, I mean, I failed.

But the hat's great. You did not say. Wait, but did he say, yihar? Oh, yeh. Okay. I was literally like, where are you? That would have been it. I was like, I want to see if Estelle really nice.

Yeah, it's real. Yeah, I can tell at this point. And they can tell I'm definitely not from there. Is a whole, like. Have you got any memories of Vestel from that tall? I remember being sort of starstruck because your band was also American. It was like super like top production and stuff. I was like, well, the players were.

I had, I think I had like one British background. guy. Yeah, yeah. And then the rest of the band. And the rest of the band. Yeah. Because I was there at that time. So it was easier to.

We're just touring musicians and he was on a day off. Yeah. Yeah. I've just, I've been to like Tokyo, New York and Italy in like as many weeks. I feel, I don't know when I am. Yeah. People think it's, um, it's glamorous, which is great. But actually.

We're not glamorous when we pull up in the moment and we're like, hi, guys. This is really clever. Ten minutes before I had half a bottle of Hednessy and I was just hopped off a train and I had to figure this out. Like it's really that. And also the dressing rooms are always so hideous. Yeah. And hot. And hot, yeah.

That's true. But you're literally straight off here, right? Yeah, yeah, straight off it. Well, welcome back. Thank you. And going on tour with gorillas. Yeah, yeah, about to get ready for this summer. Yes.

I used to, not anymore, but I used to love going out after gigs. Like, for example, I did this on the plane back from Tokyo. Yeah. Going out all night getting absolutely wrecked and then going straight to the plane. Yeah, no. Yeah, yeah. And then leaving your passport in the hotel room. Yeah, that's nice.

That was always really great for tour managers. That's a fun town. Yeah, really great. That's the tour manager's job is to locate the person and their passport. Yeah. If you've been separated. And they, look, they earned it that night. Yeah.

Because it happened. That particular set of use. We used to have also, I don't know if you were over this because you were quite young when I worked with you. But we used to have band members who disappeared and then they'd be at some girl's house or whatever. And then they show up like 10 minutes. minutes to closing checking. Like, sorry, can we not talk about it because we're girlfriends at home.

Yeah, and you're like, uh, and stop morally judging me. Stop looking at me. Stop judging me for what I did. I don't want to speak about it. And you're just there going, I really like your girlfriend. Right, right.

Yeah, but she's so nice. Why would you put me in it? How did I get in it? Why am I in it now? I'm in the middle. It's just chaos. Oh, I've had it where I've been on tour with band members and then I've like six months.

later found out that the two of the band members were sleeping together the whole time I didn't know. Things like that. Was that when you were right? That's going to happen. Do you remember that? It rarely, it rarely works. It rarely works. But Shay's less mad now because he's sober. Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Slightly, there's still enough madness. That's the thing. If you choose to do this road, you are mad. Like full blown mad. What do you think makes performers mad? The constant, the ability to be rejected, the ability to constantly fail and look stupid and keep doing it. All it takes is one good gig to make all the 15, like, terrible ones disappear. Like, you forget them.

Like, you get amnesia. Isn't it also, like, some parts of it, like, the moment you get on stage and you feel that feeling, that euphoric feeling, like, this is the thing I'm supposed to be doing. Like, yeah. You're like, it makes it all worth. Yeah. But also, like, I've been on stage and some really mad stuff has been happening in my personal life. Like, I broke up with my own.

kid's dad like people have been in hospital like people I know various people have been sectioned that are close to me and then you still just go on stage and you're like weeping and then the crowd will just clap and you're just like how did we do that gig? I've actually even been on stage with like one of my best friends as you know was in my band dying and he was so so near to death that he was like a skeleton but he didn't want to not do the gig. because he knew that the gig was his last ever gig in his life. And then at the end we just hugged and I was like, was that our last gig?

And he said, yeah, I think it was. And we just like, three weeks later, we were at the guy's funeral. Jeez, sweet. I'm so sorry. But, like, awful, but also so much life. How beautiful. Like, the devotion. Do you know what I mean?

Like, it's mad, but it's also. How do you deal with that, like, coming off the stage, though, because it's the whole band. And if everybody, you know, like, how do you deal? How do you deal with that? How did you walk through it after that? Well, two of the songs were about him dying because I genuine, and I used to joke with him. I was like, I thought you'd be gone by now.

I genuinely didn't think that I'd have to go on stage and sing the songs about you dying with you standing behind me. And he was like, yeah, like, just like, just, what that. Let's make this fun. Like, yeah, he was like, this is it. Like, he had some kind of sort of spiritual. step up almost where he was like life's about living let's just do it and like sometimes he'd pull a face at me on that song like I'd be so moved and I'd turn around and I'd be like looking

at him with tears and he'd look at me with tears and then other times I'd look around with tears and he'd just go yeah right but it's just it is mad it is mad but we basically it's like that edif pf thing isn't it we live and die on the stage it's the only place that I don't have to think everywhere else there's like noise there's back like just life is just happening blah blah but there i just like i'm just breathing and i'm just not even thinking yeah it's pure existence thanks for being american no worries lovely to see you both i just thought it was fun you again howdy he said howled five times i swear to god it's hilarious yeah oh howdy we love him i'll see you guys good to see you're my pin up you're my pin up right

Thank you. I prefer the Bromley version, to be honest. Yeah, it's the only one I know. Any time I try and be anyone else, it doesn't work. I love you. Oh, my God. It was hilarious. So tell me about your sad thing.

My grandma, it was, I remember when my grandpa had passed away, her husband, you know, that she was actually separated for a long time, but she never divorced him. She was, like, bawling, uncontrolled. And I just remember thinking to myself at the graveside, like, what am I going to do when she leaves? Like, this is unbearable now. And in the past year, she left us. She went home. And to me, it was just in last year.

So it's recent. It's a year. And so to me, like, the idea of grief and the idea of losing people that are inextricably part of your life. There's no version of me that exists without her being, having lived, having been here. And I mean that in the realest and in the simplest of ways. Like she's my grandma. My mom came from her and I came from my mom. But also the way we were raised, the calm, the beauty aspect, the fact the way that she looked

in Saw Life, the way that she raised us to be in present ourselves the way that just the way she taught us to be and the way she taught us to stand for ourselves and reminded us to stand for ourselves as we got older. With everything that she had going against her, I'm just so grateful that I come from her bloodline that she existed that I get to call her name that I, there's so many things to be happy about. But when the grief hits of like, oh, I just miss her today and tears come falling and, oh, you know, and I drove past her house yesterday where we all grew up and then the acute memories

of leaving there every day going to school from her house and like that doesn't somebody else lives there now and those things like that's the stuff that has me like oh look right

but you know I also have those memories I also have that thought of like man she was mighty she was you know small but mighty you know physically small

she's like 5, 4 that's a little person classified. But she was small. I'm 5'4. I'm in 5.5. I'm just like, I'm out here. My heels, I'm like 5'7. But she was a short, small, but she always was mighty to me.

Yeah. What do you think it is about that matriarch position, like it's so important. Like when you have a really, like my mom actually comes from one of eight kids. And when she speaks about grief and death, she's, speaks with so much remorse about her grandmother. Even though her mother's death was a sad passing, it was something about her grandmother that was really special. And I think she also felt, because she was one of so many, that she only really truly

got a special connection with her grandma. I think that I find that when, especially when you have loads of brothers and sisters, you tend to parent in community. You know, I'll say that, like, we were all raised by every woman and mother. in our family. Like, there's no version of just me, my mum and my kids. Yeah. Like my mom and my kids.

There was so many of you. No, it was all of us. Like, no physical way you can do that. There's no emotional way you can do that. You need the family. And so grandma was part of it. Auntie was part of it. Uncle's were part of it.

Yeah. You know? And cousins were part of it. We were all in the house at different moments. So I understand when your mom, there's one of eight. Yeah, grandma was raising her too, you know? There's a magic about it as well. Because every child.

Every daughter is born with all the eggs they'll ever have in them. So your grandmother actually carried you before your mother did. All of these things sit in your head. And when they leave, you're like, this is crazy. My genetics, my science. It's rude. It's madness. Yeah.

That's madness to me. Like the beauty of life and the way that all this is set up that you couldn't make up. It just blows my mind every time. But again, coming from her bloodline, coming from her, it makes me sad that, it makes me sad some of the times to think about the freedoms that I live that she paid for by having, not having the freedom. Did she, which side of your family are you speaking about? My mom's Caribbean side. No, my mom's African.

African. Which part of Africa? West Africa. So how did she come? Did she come here? She emigrated in the 60s. And that must have taken a lot of toll. It took some guts.

Yeah. I'll tell you that. With how many children? Two that were in Africa that stayed behind, two boys. She bought the three girls over after she managed to come and sell. And then she had two more. So I think, seven. And what do you think was her most magical quality?

I don't know how she stayed awake I'd be sleep and that's probably the part of it she was like I'm going to stay awake so you can sleep I'd like to sleep I really enjoy taking naps and that lady was awake a lot and I was always just like

how why are you now that why are you awake you mean you woke up and she'd be awake you went to sleep woke up she'd be awake and she had a night job and then she come home and take us to school and then on the way

and we come back from school and she's still awake and then it's like a two hour naping and she's gone back to her night job and we were always I was always like I don't want to know how but how and that's the thing I was always like she was awake a lot and you just realised

how much she actually had so much and she got into a pattern of that I think I feel like that's really moving like I was looking at this thing the other day about this lady on the Gaza Strip, obviously what's happening is appalling. Unreal. And she, it was about how she was always away.

Like she would wait for her children to sleep. Then her grandchildren to sleep. Then she would wake up before them and everyone would eat before her and everyone would sleep before her. And it was this, it was about this article about this one lady that never ate, never slept on the Garza Strip. And this is like the kind of. sacrifice. It speaks to the way that women just hold the world together. They really did.

And women of colour in particular, that's my experience, is like it's watching them just take care of everything and everyone but themselves. So she did a lot of surviving. Because she's not just doing the maternal stuff. She's dealing with racism. She's dealing with prejudice. All a bit. She's dealing with difficulty to questionable of her identity constantly, our whole life. All of that. And raising all the kids. And raising the kids. And her husband. she hasn't got anger management problems. Okay.

And then... Not supposed to. She's not allowed to. I mean, yeah. This is huge. I mean, I can't relate on the thing about racial discrimination, but the other day was in an ice cream shop. And this man elbowed me in the back for trying to get my children safe on the road. Because he said that I pushed him and I said that my kids are four and a eight.

But you elbowed a whole woman. Like, what is wrong with you? What are you going through? And then he was shocked because my natural reaction was. I thought he was going to hurt my kids. So I turned around and went, what are you doing with my arm? And he went, how dare you? And I said, but you've just elbowed me.

And then he said, and it was like that thing of that gaslighting thing you're talking about. Oh my God, you're not allowed to have an opinion or have a reaction. Or any anger. You're not supposed to protect your kids. But imagine protecting you, protecting your children. But like, also like, like, don't protect your kids, but like also protect your kids. Because if you didn't protect your kids, And what kind of mother?

If you do, your terrible mother. Exactly. So society puts so much pressure on women. So I get the sadness. I guess the sadness of the grief of your grandmother is not just the sadness of the absence of someone, but also what they had to go for and what they had to endure. We don't always pay attention to like the stuff that they're going to when they go into it. Yeah.

You know, we're just like, all right, now you've got foods on table. That's the day. You're alive. We're good. All right, cool. And you move along with your life. And then they're left to sit. or they're sitting with all these things and they're proud of you.

But there's always this energy of like, you know, I used to sit with her sometimes and just be like, hold her hand because I was like, I just want to feel what your hands feel like in this era, in this age, because I'm not going to do this again soon. I don't be able to do this soon, you know, as you get older. I just remember sitting with them, we'd just be laughing and she'd just be holding my hand. And I just, I can feel it now as I'm holding my hands. And that kind of stuff is the stuff I miss, you know, because those hands have seen everything. They've seen everything in different continents. And in different countries, in different, whole other countries taking care of so much in a whole other cities, civilizations, time, spaces. What would you say to her if she was here?

Today? Hi. Hi, Nan. I'd just go and sit with her again. I would just go sit with her and hold her hands. It's the touch. Yeah, it's physical. And that's the thing that makes it sad.

It's like, oh, I can't just do this anymore. Yeah. You said that a lot of people have called you audacious in your life. What does that mean? I don't know. Is that just an audacious from the root word audacity. Yes. I think audacious from the root word audacity, more like,

and I take it like when people come with that and say, yeah, I'm bad. Bad ass, mother. Absolutely. I'm bad. When they say she's a baddie, absolutely. I'm one of the ones, yeah. Yeah, good. Absolutely been that on my whole life, whether I knew it or not.

I know it now. Yeah. But yeah, absolutely. I think audacity is a good thing. It's a great thing. I do. I think it's really important and remiss of me not to mention, but like you started out on UK music as a black solo female artist and then you moved to America because it wasn't

going to happen unless you did or something. The Grammy wouldn't have happened unless it did. It felt like. So what is it? it what's the difference you know in terms of like being badass you obviously see things and you're like as a person like this is not an opportunity for me i'm going to go where the opportunity is like why do you think the UK is so behind with dealing with non-white artists the overarching question of life i haven't i don't have an answer to that it's interesting to me because i

completely visualise and see having got come up with a lot of peers who are like non-white peers and seeing my career rise to success whilst they there's didn't as much and also there being no difference in the level of talent if not maybe leaning on the side of them being more talented um so i i just it's interesting to me like in terms of bad like sometimes we talk about how we're bad, but I just want to ask you straight off the back, because that's what I'm curious about. Most people in the UK think you're American. Which is nuts. They do?

People I've spoke to, I know you're not, because back when I was young, I was listening to your music and I was like, she's loved to them. But I'm really proud of that. That's the first time I've heard that. Thank you. I don't know who. But that's weird. It's interesting to me.

Like, what is it? Do you think? Do you think it's purely financial? Do you think it's prejudice driven? But like, okay, so let me put it like this. America is a different terrain racially. But how come you've had more success being like, what's wrong with the UK? That's what I would have back. How did it go from here today? Why is it not going? Why is, obviously the UK is coming up in terms of people doing what they call Jean. like genre-specific certain things. Like they're like, oh, you're allowed to rap. You're allowed.

But what about, you know, British black rock stars? What about, like, what's going on with music? Do you think it's changing? I think that the world turns in music. As the world turns, do what you want. The streamers have messed out for everybody. It's like nothing is traditional anymore. Make your own narrative.

Make your own narrative in music. Choose your own deal. a la carte deals. The deals don't go. Nothing like what it used to go. You can make an album and put this stuff out tomorrow and it could be the most successful thing and it will just be your whole business, just your business. No label, no nothing attached to it.

You can literally upload it and it gets played on one movie and now you are the biggest star in the world, right? Again, or for the first time. Doesn't matter your race, doesn't matter, whatever. That's how the industry is now. Now, back then, there's formats. For the UK, I literally, again, like I said, I was going to where they would sign me. The dream I had wasn't based on, I'm doing this for, because I'm black, I'm black, I'm black, I'm black, I'm black, I'm black, I don't have to shout it.

Yeah, yeah. Like, I don't have to prove from the rooftops. It's not, that wasn't my point. You went like, this isn't happening here, I'm going to go there. This isn't happening. None of the people here were, and it was wild because I went, when I went to the labels here before, after I signed my, first deal. Yeah. When I went back around to the labels, they weren't, they didn't get it again. You know, second time round. Second time around. He still didn't get it. And they ended up having to

work me anyway. And that was a whole, you get it now? Yeah. Conversation. Like, do you understand it now? Like, and whatever they did or not, it's business, so they had to do it. And I look at that, like, this much of the whole scenario. It's whatever. It happened anyway. I just think this. But now the people decide, don't they? Exactly. We're in a stage where the people decide. You don't have to do what was done. There's no version of any artists today that has to feed.

No matter what they say to you, there's another way. There's another way. I love that. There's always another way. But I feel like in a way you started that. And I feel like, you know, the situations we're talking about, like, you were like, this is not how I live. So I just kind of like want something.

and then I'd go for it. Yeah. You know, they say like the mountain doesn't come to Muhammad or... Yeah, Mahama goes to the mountain. Yeah, you literally go, you're like, I see this blockade. I'm not interested in it.

I'm going to walk around it. And that's what you did. And in a way, like the industry now, music, is now created for everyone to be able to do that. Time and overtime, when we look at the artists that we love the most, they have these same stories. Yeah. There was somebody who was limited by what they saw as the sure thing that they knew based on their personal experiences.

Yeah. So take it out of the music business as people. We move through life based on what we think ought to happen based on the experiences that we've had. Yeah. My parents, if your parents have never been to Thailand, why would you go? 100%. Right? So the courage for me, the part for me is like with every artist, you are here to be an alchemist.

You are here to move energy, you are here to move light. However it's got to get done. No one told you it was going to be easy. No one told you that the thing was going to get laid out. They just told you that you're supposed to do this. Your spirit just told you you're supposed to do this. So do it. And you don't know any other way.

There's no other way. Just get on with it. Like, start finding excuses. It's like, you know, to be around here you say that, it's like fueling. And it's so amazing to hear it. hear it. Do you think people find outspoken women make them feel uncomfortable? I think how are people make people feel uncomfortable. People are convicted and they are. I feel like men are allowed to be outspoken more. I don't know that they are. I just, I just feel

like we just as a society, we play, we give them the space. I don't know that they are or aren't. And I think the more we go with the idea of like women aren't allowed to speak up, the more that women don't speak up. And then we just have that trope going around in a circle. So my thing is the one way to get around the thing that they told you can't do is just to do it. Stand for yourself. Say, why not? No, even why not?

Just stand for yourself. Like, your voice is valid. Who you are as a person is valid. There are going to be people who say no. And that's okay. That's their right. And they can live their life from their perspective. I also have the right to live my life from my perspective.

And I speak up. How do you deal with people misunderstanding you? I don't. Take it how you want it. You just accept. Take it how you want it. And I'm not. My intention was this.

And I think I use my words correctly. You know, I'm a big, let me say this truth. You're considerate. I'm a complete opposite. I just say everything. And then I scramble around trying to find my way back. I learned to take a breath. I learned to take a breath.

I think I could learn from you. I could probably learn from you. My thing is if the intention is good, you know, more than likely most times people feel energy and the intention's good. You trust yourself? Yeah, I trust myself implicitly. Do you think in relationships, like now you're dating again? So are you good at apologising for stuff you've done?

I'm working on it. Well, that brings us nicely on what makes you glad. So what does make you glad? Music. Yeah, I hear music. Oh, no, I really, I really, yeah, like being able to create and do it from a place of a real joy, I'm so happy. I'm so happy. Like, I tried to give it up and it was like, no, no, you're not done.

You don't have to give anything up. No, like, give it up as in like, all right, I'm done making albums. I'm done with this version of who I think I am. Maybe that version gave it up, but this new version is starting again. She likes it. She's having a good time. And it's fun. It's so great to be on stage.

It's fun again. The freedom to be able to tour the way I want a tour. I know. I sometimes, I'm like, I'm a bit tired. You can learn 30 dates a lot. It's a lot. Can we do 25? Listen, 30 cities and 30 days, I have done that kind of tour more than once.

And I'm telling you it's fun when you're when you're on the stage. It's a lot. Every other part of it is a lot. And people say, oh, you're not. You get to just go sing every day. You want me on key every day? I have to sleep every day. I need to rest every ounce of this every day.

I had this one gig once at Sydney Opera House. I'd done 27 hours in the air. And my baby was one and she, I thought we could share the, like, the bed thing. And she just laid out. I literally had 45 minutes sleep in one 27-hour flight and then had to be on stage at Sydney O'House. I was not in tune. And then people wrote on the reviews, she was a bit off. She's not as good as she looked.

You're like, go figure. And so this is the part, the breakdown of it. You had a baby, their baby was one year's old. The body's going to need more than a year to get back in real life. Two, 27 hours in the sky. It's your, your body is doing this on an airplane at any given time. Like, it's, there's no water. It's sucking the water out of your body.

In the pajamas of the airline because the kid had vomited on my actual clothes. For fun. Right, and you've got to keep a sense of humor about this. This is not easy life. There's been a Qantas pajamas. Like, like this. Yeah. And this is the one they're going to run with.

But I'm glad about it. Just like you are. I am glad about music. It's the fact that we get to do it that keeps us joyful, the fact that we get to go on stage that keeps us joyful. But the reality of the every other minute and the physicalness and the, not the toll, but just the physicalness of doing touring. is a thing. I, for one, I'm so glad you're still doing it. Thank you. And I can't wait to see you

talk in the UK. Me? I can't wait to do that. It's going to be different. I'm going to take my time now. It's going to be fun. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you, man. I feel like spiritually cleansed by your existence. I'm so happy. Really? I feel good about life. I'm going to start processing this tonight. I'll be thinking how to become a better, more zen person. Just live. You're good. You got it. You got it. Bye, my love. Bye, gorgeous. All right, thank you.

Daniel Horankekeke. Big time. But wasn't that great? All of the links of everything we mentioned in the show can be found in the episode description. Oh, and while you're there, why not subscribe and follow the show too? See you all next time. Later's potatoes.