Mad, Sad and Bad with Paloma Faith - Gary Stevenson: The Poorest People Are The Most Generous

Episode Date: July 21, 2025

The price of living is rising and life is getting increasingly more difficult for many. Gary Stevenson was a trader who predicted and profited from the financial crash in 2008; suddenly he was richer than his wildest dreams, and the most depressed he’d ever been too. Quitting Citibank, he now devotes his time to educating millions via his YouTube channel and book, about the reality of why everything is costing more. So of course, I had to invite him over (and hopefully get some investment tips too…!)Gary opened up about the saddest time of his life, and how he couldn’t understand how he could feel so low whilst earning so much. We spoke about how and why he felt driven to overwork, which led to a breakdown, but at the end of it all, it’s always the people who have the least, who are the most generous.I really enjoyed chatting to Gary, although I’m still none the wiser on what to invest in!If you liked Gary, you can see more of his content here: www.youtube.com/garyseconomicsAnd his book here: www.penguin.co.uk/books/455809/the-trading-game-by-stevenson-gary/9781802062731#GARYSTEVENSON #PALOMAFAITH #MADSADBAD—Find us on: Instagram / TikTok / YouTube—Credits:Producer: Jemima RathboneAssistant Producer: Magda Cassidy, Emily D'SouzaVideo: Grisha Nikolsky & Josh BennettSound: Shane O'BryneMix: Rafi Amsili Original music: BUTCH PIXYSocial Media: Laura CoughlanExec Producer for JamPot: Jemima RathboneExec Producers for Idle Industries: Dave Granger & Will Macdonald Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hello, I'm Paloma Faith and this is my show. Each week I welcome someone fantastic into my home to talk about what makes them mad, sad and bad. Roll recording. Hi Gary, come in. Nice to meet you. Nice to meet you. He's a former financial trader who predicted the 2008 economic crash.

Growing up working class, he worked his way up to be one of the most successful traders of his time. He's an economist known for his activism and analysis on the current climate, speaking up for economic inequality. He's got a hugely successful YouTube channel, Gary's economics, where he breaks down and explains what's really happening. He's also the author of best-selling memoir, The Trading Game. He is, in short, the people's economist. But to me, he's the good at maths mate I wish I'd had at school, because I've actually got discalculia, which I quite like because it sounds like Count Dracula. It's Gary Stevenson.

Thank you. So Gary, how do you make money now you're not at the bank? Good question. The truth is, having been somewhat obsessed with money until the age of 26, 27, I haven't really tried to make money in particular for the last 11, 12 years really. Really, what's your relationship with it now, do you think?

Do you love and hate it? That's a good question. I think if you ask my friends, they would say I'm quite tight. They would say, um... Rich people always are tight though, aren't they? It's part of it. Yeah, I mean, I don't... That's how you stay rich.

You know what, it was weird, right? Because I came from a very poor background. Then when I was 12, 13, I started doing a paper round, 13 pound a week. Then when I was 16, 17, I started working at DFS, the sofa shop for 40 pound a day on weekends. So there was really, really not much. And it was that kind of, you know, you'd skip lunch to save money, this kind of thing. And that was my mentality. You know, and I never really went to restaurants, never really went to shops.

Everything was sort of hand me down. But then obviously I got this job as a trader for Citibank. I won this job in a competition in the card game. And I got a job at Sea Bank, which I started in 2008, so when I was 21. and then in my first year I got paid just under 400,000 pounds, which was... Blew your mind. I had not been expecting that at all.

I'd been expecting to get paid like £100,000, which in itself would have been like a huge amount. And it was kind of crazy to have gone from this childhood of just like skipping everything, buying the cheapest of everything. And then suddenly you've getting paid £400,000. And you go into the supermarket and you still have this instinct, which is I need to buy the cheapest thing. And the cheapest thing is like 30 pence less.

It kind of made it feel a little bit like horrific in a way to have been made to live this childhood where you're scrimping and saving for pennies. And it wasn't just me, you know, I grew up in a poor area and especially like my primary school, I went to school with a lot of poor kids. And then suddenly you get 400,000 pounds dropped on you. And then I would just go to the supermarket

and I wouldn't even look at the prices because it was kind of irrelevant. Just put whatever you want in the trolley, right? That to me has been the thing that's the most life-changing thing is putting what you want in the trolley. And anybody ever asked me, like, what defines success for you? That's one of the things that I say that is being able to go around the supermarket and put whatever you actually want in it rather than what you can have.

Do you know what I think the big thing is for me? The big thing for me is not having to worry about losing things or things breaking. Because I remember when I was a kid, we went on a school trip to the beach. I was wearing plimsels. I had one pair of school shoes and one pair of like plim soles. With the elmptych. Yeah, yeah, the little black ones with the little elastic. Yeah, yeah.

And I took my plimsels off and I ran into the sea and you're playing in the sea, right, as you do when you're a kid. And then when I come out, the plim cells were gone. So I guess the sea They must have I must have put them too close to the sea or whatever And And then that was it I didn't have no plim soles for like

A year and a half And you're wearing your school shoes To play football You're wearing your school shoes for PE And I think that was the thing And I would work You know I would save up this £1 a week pocket money

Or this £12 pound a week For 10 The paper round money For 10 weeks to buy a pair of Tiennes Nike Tienz And then you know What they are Because I love them as well

You know, like if you, you know, if I lose, it's this, I think this thing which people who've never been poor don't, don't perhaps understand or recognise, is this terror you have of knowing if I lose a thing or if a thing breaks, I can't replace it, I can't fix it. And it's just gone. And I'm going to have to make you without it. I think that is, that is the big thing which was nice about making money. Yeah. But if you, you know, you go through the book, it's kind of the.

story of the more money I made, the more I kind of lost my mind. How did that manifest the madness? Because we're in mad now. Okay. Tell me about, did you go mad? So I think this first bonus I got, I had not all been expecting it to be that much money. I'd been kind of led to believe it was going to be about £100,000, £120, something like that. And then I get paid this $400,000.

And then that's when I think I kind of entered this, I suppose, Like an obsession phase. I think of it as an obsession phase of my life really, where I was basically just obsessed with being the best trader. And you did achieve that, right? Yeah, I did. I did. And what madness came with it?

I'd always wanted, or I always thought that I wanted to become rich. But really, I didn't really know what being rich was. Well, it feels an impossible dream when you're young anyway. So you say it, don't you'll think it, but you don't in reality know what comes with it? Yeah. I had this idea that I was working towards something. I had this like, I was very driven, very, very competitive as a kid. And I didn't expect to make as much money as I did make so young.

But then when the money came in, I think part of me realized, like, that I didn't actually want anything. It was an idea I was chasing in a way. And I started dating a girl. And one of the first things she said was like, you know, why don't you fucking quit that job you hate it you hate it why don't you just quit

and up until then no one had ever said anything like that to me because obviously I was known amongst like my friends and family and people back in Ilford as like oh he's so successful nobody ever even suggested like you might step away from him or whatever it never occurred to me or anyone around me

that I might hate my job because everybody just thought well he's getting paid like more than a million pound a year and that's the only thing that matters or whatever Yeah, and then this girl came into my life and she was like, why don't you hate that job? Why don't you quit that job? You hate it. And I was like, it kind of shocked me.

And also, she kind of didn't give a shit about this money that I was making. And I think, I think in a way that kind of started to put these cracks in these ideas that I had, which is like, I'm going to make loads of money and then I'm going to be happy. I think, you know, I think lots and lots of people have this idea, which is quite simplistic, which is I'm going to make a load of money. and then I'm going to be happy. Yeah. But I did make a load of money and I wasn't happy.

And I guess that kind of started a kind of like a crisis of meaning in the way. Because you said in your book that you had a breakdown, right? Yeah, I mean, I don't use the term breakdown, but yeah, it was kind of a breakdown. It was a burnout. It was definitely, I was diagnosed with situational depression. And it was definitely in hindsight a depression, a burnout. But the funny thing about that was, I moved to the same thing. Japan in 2012.

I like it was a work transfer. I tried to quit after I'd only been there for not even six months. And the opening scene of my book is like my direct manager, this like massive American banker, basically telling me if you, if you quit, we're going to find some shit on you, we're going to sue you. And he literally says to me, I like you. I think you're a good person. but sometimes bad things happen to good people. And it put me in a situation. So threatening. Well, yeah, it was.

And it was this weird thing because obviously, like, this is like one of the biggest corporations in the entire world. And, you know, a senior manager is basically saying, we're going to find something, we're going to sue you. So put me in this mad situation where it was kind of... Was their stuff, is there stuff on you that they could find? Well, they never did sue me, so I assume that there isn't. Bad.

Well, he was saying, he kind of gave me this this kind of hypothetical situation about this other guy and they said, you know, he hadn't really done anything but you know, they look, because they have so much data on you. He was like, we looked through all of his emails, and we looked through all of his phone calls and we looked through all of his chats. We looked through all of his messages and there wasn't really anything there,

but we could put something together. So he was making it kind of clear that they didn't really need anything. Yeah. So obviously I went home and like, you know, like threw up a different. the toilet, you know, and then I was like, you know, what the fuck am I going to do? And I stayed up all night, I couldn't sleep. And I made this plan, which was, I'm going to go to the doctor, and I'm going to tell him, like, my boss is threatening me, and I'm going to ask for sick leave.

Because at the time I was in Japan, and Japan has this really bad problem of suicides of workers because they're getting, like, harassed by their bosses, like, just literally just sudden death of workers, because they're working so hard, they just suddenly die. They have a word for it in Japanese because there's so much social pressure on workers to to work really, really hard. So because of that, they have really good legal protections for people who have requested sickly for stress. So I was kind of, in a way, I requested sickly for stress as a way of protected myself against Citibank. But the truth is, like, my mental health was fucking terrible. I was down to about eight stone. Yeah, like super, super super, I was down. And I could.

barely eat, I was getting this like unbelievably painful, like heartburn. If I didn't eat for a few hours, it would start really being painful. So the thing is, you look back now, and I obviously was like super, super stressed and in a really bad mental health situation. But I thought, and almost everybody around me thought that I was applying for sick leave. To get off that. To protect myself from the bank. And I think even at the time, I genuinely wasn't sure whether I was sick or whether I was pretending to be sick to protect myself from the bank. It's only now looking back that you can be like, you can look and be like. Objectively and go, yeah, I wasn't well.

My whole life was like that. So like I had this flat. I think depression's like that anyway because I've had depression, postpartum, psychosis, all these things. And it's not until you're out of them that you go, oh, I was ill. But in the moment, you're like, this is my reality. I see it so much now because, you know, I studied economics at LSC and I studied economics at Oxford. So I've studied with a lot of, you know, high performing economists, a lot of them

going into banking. And a lot of them do end up with, with stress-related health problems. And what I've found, I think generally is when I've tried to tell people who are working in these very high-pressure industries and are very stressed that they might be stressed, they react super defensively. What do you mean? I'm not stressed. I'm fine. I'm totally fine. Everyone's stressed. It's a difficult job. It's a high, you know, I'm not stressed. And it's this, they can't be stressed because they're too stressed to be stressed. Don't tell them they're stressed. They haven't got time to be stressed right now.

Because it's a, it's normalized. And I think this is not just in banking. Like so, even. Just in industry at all. Yeah, I mean, definitely the high paying industries like law, like even like things like recruitment. But to be honest, even things like teaching, the stress load that we put on teachers, which is not a exactly high paid profession. I think we've kind of moved into this more kind of American style culture.

Yeah. Yeah, we've moved into this idea that you, you, You have to be working 120% all the time. Otherwise, you're a failure. Yeah. Otherwise you're a loser. And then we wonder why there's a mental health epidemic amongst young people. There's the quote at the beginning of my book is from a Japanese film director, Akira Kurosawa,

saying in a mad world, only the mad are sane. I don't want to tell people, you know, don't try and beat whatever mentally illness you might have. But I think especially those of us who are fortunate to not have to worry about paying the bills every day, when are we going to step back and look at the kind of game we've put on the way? the plate for these guys. Life is so hostile for young people. Life is so hostile for young people. It's so difficult even to achieve some of the most basic things, like being able to feed your family, being able to buy a house, being able to have financial security for your kids. And then to turn around and say it's because you don't work hard enough or because you... It's your fault,

even. Yeah, I think that's really, that really, yeah, leaves a bit of taste. So you talk about having depression, which is essentially sadness. Yeah, yeah. Do you think as a person you've learned to, like, be in touch with your own feelings? Like, do you cry easily? Is it difficult for you? I'm very rarely crying in front of anyone, I think, which is common for a lot of men. Your private crier.

I mean, I take a lot of myself. I take a lot of myself, especially sometimes. You think you're naturally hyper-responsible? Well, I mean, it's mad now because at the end of the day, in my heart of hearts, I'm a trader. and I look at the economy and I make predictions and I think this is going to get worse. I'm working really hard every day to try and prevent that, try and stop things of getting worse. But I do think things will get worse.

And it's not, you know, it's not for people like me that it will get worse. And I'll be fine. I'll be protected. I don't do what I do for me. And I work, especially the last few months, I've been working really hard, too hard, to be honest. And then when you do that and you get attacked in the papers and you get all people saying all kinds of shit about you.

People want to bring you down if you're powerful or if you might be damaging to a system that makes them feel say. So inevitably people, they'll come for you because that's what they do to protect themselves. I think sometimes I'm able to step back from it and view it as a game. And that's another big thing is I make everything into a game. That's called disassociation. Okay. That makes it so much less healthy. But it's quite common amongst people who have been traumatised in the way to like,

because I have the same thing where I would sit out of my body and then I view it from the outside and I go, oh, it's a game because it makes it easier almost to like otherwise you might shut down. Yeah, I think this is a big theme in the book. In my book, there's a real kind of a switch, which is the beginning of section five of the book, which is the Japan section. And the opening line of that section is Tokyo is a wonderful place to be depressed,

especially in the autumn. And for me, that whole last section of the book is supposed to be really about depression. What a depression is like, or at least what a depression was like for me, which was that I didn't really feel sad. For me, it wasn't a feeling of sadness. It was like a feeling of just not caring about anything,

not caring about anything. And I just... Numb. Yeah, numbness, not really being able to enjoy. enjoy anything. You know, like this, not, I didn't have any furniture in my flat. And the girl I was seeing at the time, she came around and she was like, how can you live like this?

I'm a student. And I just laughed at it. I just thought it was funny. You know what I mean? But it's that kind of thing, not caring if you sleep, not caring if you eat, this kind of numbness separation from the world. I actually think, like, you know, when you say it's going to get worse, I remember growing up, there was loads of homeless people on the street.

and people slept on the street a lot more as a kid. And then it kind of started to improve and I can start to see it a bit more again. And I think it is getting worse and you think about all this stuff at the moment like with things like this, the benefits being cut for disability and universal credit. And it was funny because I was trying to get some people

to come on this show to talk to you. that I know who are on PIP, disability benefit and universal credit, and no one would come on because they were too scared to be on this podcast to be seen because they think they're all scared of getting their benefits taken away. And there's loads of things like people call, for example, people talk about things like food banks as part of the state system, but it's not. It's a consequence of a failing state.

state system. It's not fair to say, oh, it's part of our brilliant state system. We've got food banks. We shouldn't have food banks and all of that. So I feel you on that. I think that's super sad. And I don't know how the distribution of wealth can improve other than, like you say, to tax the super rich because it would solve it so quickly. It's not easy to solve. What I worry about and why I do the work that I do is... Do you want to just say what kind of, what work you mean when you say? Yeah, so, you know, back in a book, but you do, you do some quite practical things as well, don't you? Yeah, yeah. If you talk about back 30, 40, 50 years ago, the UK government, not just the UK government, like most Western governments, they owned most obviously a ton of housing stock.

They own tons of houses, right? But they also own lots of other things and they didn't have enormous amounts of debt. So you can, when I talk about wealth, this is not about your income. This is about what you own. It's about who basically owns the physical assets of the country. And if you go back 30, 40, 50 years ago, you have a world, at least in the West, you have a country here in the UK,

where the government owns a lot, has a lot of housing, is not massively in debt. Ordinary working class families own, not a lot, but they have a bit, you know, families like my family, family's like your mum's family, by the way it sounds, end up being able to own their own homes. You know, so you have... But what do you think that does to someone's psychology?

Like we go, yeah, it's really great to own a home. But actually, what does that mean for someone? What would be the repercussions of someone having that stability to know that whatever happens, whatever money they lose, they've got a roof over their heads? And also, in my mum's case, she keeps going on about it, something to leave their kids. Because it feels like something, you know, I'm giving you something, a chance, an opportunity, whatever it is. Well, I'm not a psychologist. but you can imagine this is going to make people feel a lot calmer.

I think it's crazy that we have this massively growing mental health crisis alongside these economic changes like ordinary people not being able to own property, not being able to have that financial security. And so few people are saying, well, it's the lack of economic security that has caused the mental health crisis. You know, I'm not an expert on phones and apps. I'm sure these have their consequences. But if you know.

Because scapego often. Yeah. If you know that working an ordinary job will give you the ability to raise a family in dignity, that's a hell of a good thing to know. Yeah. So moving on to bad, do you think there's such a thing as good and bad

or a hero or villain? Oh, it's a good question. I had a rule for myself when I wrote my book, which is I didn't want any character to be 100% good or any character to be 100% bad. I wanted to try my best to show you these people as I, as they really are. Which is that everyone has got good and bad in them. You know, I think there's, I don't like to believe that there is such a thing as like a,

someone who's just born bad and they're bad. We condemn them to that. Yeah, and I don't think there's any, there's any such thing as a person who's like totally good. I think when I do the work that I do, people sometimes be like, oh, he thinks he's such a saint, you know. I don't think I'm such a saying. I think, you know, it's funny. When I wrote this book, so my sister works in creative writing, and we were thinking about doing something about sort of my story or whatever. And I decided to write this book and we went out for a meal and sat down and told us writing the book.

And she said, if you're going to write the book, you're going to have to make yourself a dickhead in the book. And it was funny because I'd already been thinking the same thing. I felt like the book would be better. the book would be more interesting. The main character would be deeper if we really brought out like the dickheadishness of this guy because... So you, but do you think that to bring it out

this guy, which is you, do you think that you are capable of being a dickhead? Yeah, 100. I think, you know, you read the book. I mean, yeah, you know, it was really interesting you write a book. You start realising like... You realize how much freedom you have in the way you create and portray characters,

even when that person is really not telling the truth? So when we talk about all those people hoarding all of that money, I think a bad quality would be selfishness. Yeah, yeah. Do you think it's a natural animal instinct to just keep what's yours? I think, in my opinion, I think it is 100% human to be selfish, but I think it is also 100% human to care about the people around you. I think, I don't think it's one or the other.

I think, yeah, of course, at the end of the day, you are the person who is responsible for taking care of yourself. You know what I mean? But that doesn't mean that you don't care about people around you as well. So I studied economics, and in economics, you really have this idea that, like, everyone is selfish, but they're just selfish. They only care about, like, just themselves.

Everyone's multiple. Yeah, so, you know, I was really raised, if you'd have asked me when I was 15, 17, 20, like, does altruism exist? I'd have been like, no, altruism doesn't it. And a lot of people believe, a lot of people believe altruism doesn't exist. They think like, okay, sometimes people do things, but other people, but it's because they want to get a reward

or they want to feel good about themselves. The actual reasons are selfish. And this was really an idea that I grew up with. But then I moved to Japan. What you see when you live in Japan is like really, really dramatically different societal cultural attitudes towards like selfishness. and there's a really, really strong expectation that you really, really care and take an interest in and make sure they're okay, all of the people around you. In Japanese, they call it kuky or yomut, which means, like, to read the air.

And when I first moved to Japan, I actually found it, like, really, like, kind of invasive, like, almost claustrophobic. Because you start realizing, like, people are really, like, really paying attention to me. like it'll be like they'll be they'll just try and make sure you sit in the right seat in the taxi or in the restaurant and they'll be like are you too hot are you too cold do you need this do you need that and I was like guys just like like leave me alone because I wasn't really used to people like really worrying about me um but I tried to quit my job in Japan and I couldn't and I ended up kind of just like wandering around cycling around Tokyo for like a year and a half because I wasn't working and I couldn't quit and I really got to I got to learn Japanese and I got to understand the culture

and there was this one time so karaoke is massive in Japan you've been to Japan did you karaoke? Karaoke is my favourite thing to do in general doesn't surprise but I like to sing badly in karaoke well that is a good point

so I am actually not a bad singer but I hated karaoke in Japan hated it because you know they'd be like oh you're English go sing wonderful and I'd be like very self-conscious and go up there

And one time I was at this karaoke with a bunch of like some Japanese, some non-Japanese, and I sang my wonder when I was just looking like I hated it. And this old Japanese man, his name was Hiroshi, said, come see next to me. And he said to me, what you need to understand about karaoke is, it doesn't matter whether you sing well or sing badly. What matters is your guests have a good time. And I didn't really realize that I'd been going in with this quite stupid, quite selfish. quite English, quite Western mentality, which is I'm supposed to sing well and I'm getting

self-conscious. And then they were like, no, what you want to do is you want to make everyone else have a good time. And then I kind of changed the way that I approached karaoke and I would try to make a bit of a joke of it and try to make everybody else enjoy it. And what I found was, when I started focusing on making other people around me enjoy it more, I also enjoyed it much more. And I kind of felt that like this, I'd being raised in this like get rich or die trying culture, I'd kind of allowed myself to believe that in life, you have a choice between do you take care of yourself or do you worry about other people? And you have to take care of ourselves because no one is going to take care of you. And then from our time in Japan, I realized that I

think really personally, I think that makes us smaller as humans to think that you can only be all for me or nothing for me. I think that we have the capacity as humans to both be selfish and care for ourselves. And I think that you have to do that. You have, if you have, if you're If you don't care about look after you, who's going to look after you, and also care for others. I think that we've really made people smaller by convincing them that they have to be selfish. I think that that means that they can't give as well. I think like 100%, you can do both, you should do both. And I know that there are a lot of people in this world who are in a situation where they don't have much to give.

But even often they find space to give. Yeah, those often are the most generous. people in my experience they'll give you the last thing they've got usually this is amazing it's been so wonderful talking to you inspiring

also and I'd like to know that in amongst all of the sort of hard things in the world and God knows right now it's the worst I think our generation's ever seen in reality politically and everything how do you what makes you feel glad

in amongst all of those negative things? Well, it's funny we were speaking about how it's often the poorest you give the most. And I remember I got sent up by this group that I work with called Patriotic Millionaires. They sent me up to a town called Colburn, which is in North Yorkshire, which is in Rishi-Shanak's constituency. And they wanted me to go up there, go to a food bank, and ask the food bank users how they felt about having Britain's richest ever MP as their as their local MP. So I took the train up to North Yorkshire,

get to Colburn, get to this food bank. And totally coincidentally, that happened to be just a few days after the Russian invasion of Ukraine. And I get to this food bank, and basically the food bank had been converted into like a donation centre. So I'm just there, like packing things into boxes,

like everybody else. And I'm talking to the other people and I'm asking them, how did you like find out? that this was happening here today. And they were like, oh, well, we usually come here, it's usually a food bank and we usually come here like to get out of food. You know, these are some of the poorest people in the country. These are people who struggle to feed their families, right?

And at a time when a war has been declared, I don't know, 2000, 3,000, 4,000, however far away Ukraine, it's thousands of miles away. These guys, some of the poorest people in the country, they take their time to go to the food bank and to pack something to boxes to drive to Ukraine. And I guess that made me realise I think sometimes it's easy to shit on the country You know there's a lot of bad stuff happening

There are good people out there There are good people out there that are willing to support good things And they want to support good things And I think it's the responsibility of Those of us who have the time and the space and their resources To give them those good things to support And I think if we build it That does make me feel glad I agree

Also I think at the moment And the problems in politics is because people don't fully communicate what they don't really know what they voted for. Yeah. And when you really like go into those situations, which I've done a lot of and do a lot of, because I believe in community, I think you realize that everyone's, like, the greater idea, the ideals, what makes us the same is so apparent. and the fact that everyone really does just essentially want the same thing is just that people's power has been diminished and diminished and diminished by feeling powerless. But if we asked everybody really collectively

what they wanted the world to be like, I don't think we'd be in the political situation we're in. I think it's just not coming across. Politicians aren't really communicating properly. Yeah, I think there's a lot of division now. days, I think it's easy to see, hard to avoid probably. And I think sometimes... But scapegoating.

Scapegoat, but I think sometimes that division is intentionally sent out there by people who should know better, people who think they can benefit from it. My friend was telling me the other days, well, about this gardener. She met a gardener in a public park. And when the whole Ukraine thing happened, he just quietly in a public park, just planted loads of blue and white, blue and yellow flowers. But he didn't tell anybody what he was doing. That was that.

So then when it came out in bloom, he was like, I did my little bit. Yeah. I just think that's so nice. I think a lot of people. Yeah. I think about stuff. It's like Frank Ocean says, we all try. I think everyone out there, people are standing there ready to support a movement that wants to make things better.

But they just don't see that person. They don't see that person doing that. So I would encourage. Yeah, I would think about it. I would encourage everyone, you know. We can all be that person for our friends, for our families, for our communities. We can try and paint the example of a better direction we can go in and push other people to go that way as well.

Thank you, Gabby. That's okay. It's so good. Thanks so much for coming on. I still don't know the wiser, but... You'll figure it out. Just read the book twice. Okay.

Thank you. Bye, Gary. Bye. Oh my God, I don't know what to invest in still. Well, wasn't that great? All of the links of everything we mentioned in the show can be found in the episode description. Oh, and while you're there, why not subscribe and follow the show too?

See you all next time. Later's potatoes.