Mad, Sad and Bad with Paloma Faith - Jamie Laing: I Was Lying To Make People Like Me

Episode Date: July 28, 2025

Jamie Laing is the first posh person I’ve ever liked - before I first met him, I was convinced we wouldn’t get on, but within about 10seconds of our first meet, I was a fan. We’ve since become great friends and he’s the reason I have this podcast in the first place, so it felt right to have him over. Jamie is juggling A LOT: a multiple podcasts, a production company, Radio1 presenting, running Candy Kittens and most recently, preparing for fatherhood. He really opened up about the toll of doing so much and what drives him to do what he does. Jamie shares some of his naughtier antics both from Made In Chelsea and as a child, and he gets emotional reflecting on how his relationships with family have changed as he’s got older. My mum, like many mothers, is a huge fan of Jamie’s so obviously popped her head in to give Jamie some parenting advice.#JAMIELAING #PALOMAFAITH #MADSADBAD—Find us on: Instagram / TikTok / YouTube—Credits:Producer: Jemima RathboneAssistant Producer: Ceyda UzunVideo: Grisha Nikolsky & Josh BennettSound: Shane O'BryneMix: Jay BealeOriginal music: BUTCH PIXYSocial Media: Laura CoughlanExec Producer for JamPot: Jemima RathboneExec Producers for Idle Industries: Dave Granger & Will Macdonald Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hello, I'm Paloma Faith and this is my show. Each week I welcome someone fantastic into my home to talk about what makes them mad, sad and bad. Roll recording. God, I've cleaned up the puppy poo and pissed on my living room. Jamie! Hi! My favourite person. You're my favourite person.

Do I take my shoes off or no? I'm going to take them off. If you are. I'm going to take my shoes off. my jacket on. You know what, I'm so glad that you look like a flasher. Yeah, I am. Sorry, I haven't been flashing outside. This is exciting.

What's he going to do? To you, he's the lovable blonde who ran five ultramarathons with Radio One for comic relief. First, gracing our TV sets in 2010 on Maize in Chelsea. He drew us in with his boyish antics and numerous love affairs, resulting in him meeting the actual love of his life, Sophie, who he does one of his. million podcasts with, charting their engagement, marriage and now journey to becoming parents. Alongside this, he's an incredibly busy man, founding his own sweet company, Candy Kittins, hosting the drive-time slot on Radio One and running the production company that actually

produces this show. But to me, he's the first posh man I ever liked. I walked into that room determined to despise him to the very core. And within 10 minutes, he'd cracked me open. And now it's his fault. I have a posh boyfriend, a podcast, and indirectly a puppy. It's Jamie Lang. What?

Do you think you're doing too much? Yay! Hi. Wait, hang on a second. Why the puppy? Well, because it came on the podcast and I couldn't not have one. No, come on. Yes.

That's why you got it? Yes. You're not interviewing me. Are you doing too much? Wait, I just even know this that we can go into. So you got the puppy because the puppies were in here and then you thought it would be a good idea to keep the puppy? Well, my kids saw them and then it was just a snowball effect.

So it's your fault. Hmm. Am I doing too much at the moment? It's like, I think I probably... I'm tired at the moment, Pete. Well, when you list what you're doing, it's insane. Yeah, I'm tired at the moment. And you know, ADHD people are prone to doing too much and then burning out.

Is that what happens? Yeah, like we all go, yes, yes, yes, because I've got the capacity today to think of all these things. And then you do them and then you burn out and crap. I take on so many things because in the moment I can do it. Yeah. It's like paying whackamol, but but but then what happens is is that everything becomes quite serious.

And then when it's serious, you have to actually start putting all the work together. And it's like building blocks. And that's when it starts to come complicated because you can't build everything at the same time. Yeah. It becomes tough. So I'm in that place at the moment.

I can sense it. No, you can't. Can you really? Well, I can because I just look at what you're doing and I recognize myself in it. And I, you know, like, I'm coming from the perspective of like, I've also got a podcast. And you were like, do you want to do a podcast one day? And I said, yes, I'd love to do a podcast having just written a book, having put out seven albums, having acted in three series of something.

And then, so I get it. I just sometimes like my maternal instinct looks at you. and I'm like, oh, it takes one to no one. Yeah. And also, if you're there for everyone, because you're naturally like a person who looks after people as well. So you're like, I don't want to let anyone down. Plus, I want to do all this stuff.

Like, who looks out for you? That's true. And also because Sophie, my wife is pregnant at the moment, I think I take on a lot of her emotions. So when I'm stressed about this thing, I don't quite know if I'm stressed about that, that, that, that or that. So my mum's here and she wants to give you some parenting. advice. I can't wait.

Mom! Tell him you've got three things for Jamie to do as a parent. First of all I want to say congratulations because it's marvellous to be a parent. Thank you so much. And number one, I would say it's funny, if you get the feeding right, you're way ahead. That's a deal. So I need to breast food.

Well, you have to decide if the breastfeed's not going well and you change. Or you can do both. You do breast and bottle. To get the feeding right is amazing. And the second thing I'd say, have a support. network. Someone who will say to you, I'll take the baby. A village. A maternity nurse. Yeah. You could. I found me. No, but I did say to you a night now. I was very lucky. I had like four sisters. They saw me through everything. They didn't even on the phone and everything.

Okay, so have that support, have that tribe. I think so. And seek the help. You don't have to feel bad for asking. I told you a million times you can call me. You said this. You don't want to be a hero. And you said, also the best thing you said, do you want to be a hero the whole time? You don't. Yeah. Don't try and just, yeah, don't try and do everything yourself so you can look it and go, we did that ourselves. Just get help. And it's good for the child, for socialisation. Yeah, Paloma's kids are very good at getting on with. They get on with people.

They're very good at being left. They don't cry much. Okay. No. And the third thing I would say is try and get on the same page. With each other. With each other. You won't always manage it.

But don't discuss that in front of the child. Don't do it without the child list. I didn't agree with you on that. I didn't agree with you on it. But if you're on the same page, the kids pick that up, then they don't play you off. Then they don't play you off against each other. And they do that something they play off?

Yeah, like I might come to you and go. I sometimes say no to my kid about something and then they go to their dad. And he does it. And he'll do it. And they'll be like, uh, and then he's like, oh my God, I thought she said she'd asked you and you said it was fine. Okay, this is good advice. And then we get together and we're like, we need to talk to you.

Well, I actually think you're going to have a lovely time. So do I. Thank you. It's a wonderful thing. I can't wait. I think you'll love it, but you'll hate it sometimes as well. And then love it at a time. Yes, yes, right.

So excited. Very nice, Jamie. Have you ever had a moment when you've been so stressed, burnt out? All the time. Really? Yeah, all the time. And I'm just like, and the problem is, I mean, it's good because we're talking about this and it's like we're going into mad.

But like, you lose your, like, cognition. and stuff, like you think you're losing your mind or you feel like the inner bully comes out and says you're a failure. But you're not a failure, it's because you're just some, you've set it up so you're destined to fail because you can't possibly do all those things.

Which leads me to my first question in the mad category. Do you think that it's quite mad that you and Sof have decided to do a show about having your first baby? because I feel like it's a little naive. I'm just going to throw it out there. Like, I think it's, I get why, because your whole USP's been like reality.

And we are like very comfortable with being ourselves and showing our, you know, our truth and stuff. But having been somebody who's been like that my whole life and then had my first baby and I don't want to scare you, but a lot of things went wrong for me the first time. Give it to me. Well, like, the pregnancy was not as comfortable as I expected. I didn't look the way that I wanted to look.

I was overwhelmed by the amount of information. Then things went wrong in the birth. And I just... Was it scary? Terrifying. I mean, I've never been so close to death. Oh, my God. And I'm just thinking, like, if a camera crew were there.

So we... So, Sophie and I... announced that we're doing a six-part series with Disney, right? Which is following our lives and going down this road. And having come from doing Made in Chelsea for so many years, I know the kind of toll and the energy that can take on a relationship, on your life, on your body, on your mind, on everything. And with Disney, we sort of undenade about it for about a year.

Maybe about a year. Like, before you knew you were pregnant? Before we knew you were pregnant. So Disney's on your time. They wanted to create a show, right? That's what they wanted to do. And they saw perhaps Sophie and I as an idea to do something like that. And we spoke about it for about a year and a half, going back and forward with these things and TV takes a long time. And then it came to a point where we had to make a decision whether we wanted to do it or not. And that lots of

people agree with you, right, Sophie's going to give birth. That is a lot. She's going through a lot of changes. Sophie and I can decide truthfully what we want to show and not want to show. Yeah, that's good. I mean, having said that there was a good thing, right? there was a documentary made about me. I filmed the birth on my phone. Peter, you've done this. No, it was on my phone. And then when I felt safe,

because I knew that the baby was okay, then I said, this can go in the documentary. But it was footage on my phone. I wouldn't be able to have, like, random guys, like, no offense guys, but I'd hate you to have been there. These guys aren't going to be there for the birth. Are you kidding me?

And I also don't think they would have liked it much either. I think most people think that my baby's going to come off and I'm going to put it straight into a podcast. She'd be like, come on, let's go. Look, I think it's a unique situation right, and I'm totally with you. Most people would look at that and sort of go, why would you want to show every aspect of your life? Why would you want to... Is your mum worried? My mum is always kind of worried about me in lots of different ways.

I think you're exceptional at what you do, and I think you're really intelligent when you... No, in an emotional way, which to me is the most valuable. form of intelligence. And I think that they're really lucky to have you guys to do that. And actually, I really hope that you have a show where it's just the normal amount of worry, the normal amount of stuff going wrong, the normal amount. But because it's just an embryo, like, I worry that it's under a lot of pressure already.

For you guys as well, like... I agree with you, Pee, by the way. I agree with you. I mean, it's mad. It is totally mad. And Pian, you want to say... And you are so right. Do you know what? It is totally mad. And most people would look at it and go, that is completely an ugly bonkers. I really want to watch it. I'm not saying it's great. Like, I'm looking forward to watching it. But I feel guilty for looking forward to watching it. Well, I'll tell you what.

Why should I not feel guilty about wanting to watch it? Tell me. I tell you there's two options, right? Like, I think we always have these sort of decisions in life, right? Where you can either do something or not do something. And part of me, rightly or wrongly, I'm always thinking, I never kind of want to think, oh, what if on stuff. And because I'm used to having done reality and I'm used to kind of putting myself out there, especially Sophie and I, we're kind of quite smart with it. And also, I mean, behind all, Disney and the whole thing, they can film what we give them. Yeah, so you can go, like, in the moment, you can go, actually, do you mind just switch off the camera and going out, we're just doing this? We don't have to show them anything.

We didn't want to. Yeah, so you have the balance. You're in control of this in a way that maybe it made in Chelsea you were less in control, right? Totally. Because that was quite a huge, you signed yourselves away with that, right? Also, with Made in Chelsea, it was, I was 21 years old. I had no experience of television. I had no experience of reality TV.

I didn't know what it was. It was very new to like the sphere anyway. There were only a few reality shows that were happening. And there was something kind of amazing about that. But the currency for Made in Chelsea was drama and breaking up and hooking up and doing all those kind of. It was very much a reality soap opera. That's what it was.

Where this show is more of a docu-series type show where it follows the ongoings and what Sophie and I have been doing. So it's an extension of what we're doing already in a way. Having said that, I may regret the whole thing. I may think this is the worst idea. I'll come back on the podcast ago. That was the worst idea we've ever done.

But I would rather do it. and regret it, then never do it at all. I think you're really brave. Would you not, would you, Kate, if Disney said to you, we want to do a show around you? They wouldn't. They might do. But it's not about birth.

You wouldn't do it about birth? No. Why? Tell me what. Too many variables. Too many potential. Problems. Variables, yeah.

Tell me what's the saddest thing that you've ever seen or experienced. The saddest thing that it's, ever experienced. My grandmother died on the weekend. This weekend? Oh my God, I'm so sorry. Yeah, so she was called Granny Scotland and that's what cool because she lived up in Scotland. And she was a really amazing lady in so many different ways. She was 95. And I went up and saw her recently about a month ago and spent time with her. And I've had grandparents pass away in the past, but for some reason, this is the first one that sort of hit me differently. It made me really realize a lot that life is like temporary and that like, you know, things aren't always forever, which is quite

sad. Probably a reason why that I'm feeling a bit stressed and things like that at the moment. I think it's affected me more than I've realized. That's actually been quite sad, recent. for me. I'm not good with people going. I want people to stay around forever. Yeah, I think it also changes your perspective when you're looking at birth at the same time as death. Yeah. Like, because it's two polar opposite. That's exactly it. It's like one thing ends and another thing is beginning and it's a weird way of... Imagine if your baby comes and it's Granny Scotland. That would be death. Honestly, she was a nightmare. It's just like... She was a...

Okay, then you get my wee purse. Would it make some soup, son? And you're like, ah! If it's Granny Scotland, as my mate, that would be the biggest night. Do you feel comfortable with, like, being vulnerable, showing emotion, crying? Who? You? Good question.

I find it hard to show lots of emotions, but only in the right circumstances can I show them. So if a... if my food delivery arrives and it's the wrong order, I can get really angry, not with the person but about it, because it gives me an excuse to be angry. Do you feel like you've got regret maybe not exploring your own sadness in the times when you'd like to? Yes.

So my, I would have to say the biggest, I have two really sad times for me. One was when my brother went to boarding school. So I was six, he was eight And my brother and I were like thick as thieves We were like best friends We did everything together And we always went on adventures

And he was so smart He like told me Everything about the world He was the one I was so scared of the dark at night So I'd go and sleep in his room And he would tell me stories of Jamie and Sweet World So to make me fall asleep at night And so that's why I wanted a world made of sweets

That's why I started Candy Kittins because of that So he was just like Just the best big brother in the world But then he went to boarding school and I was left without him. And I remember being really, really, I didn't really understand what sad was. It's like being hit with a knife,

but you can't find the wound. You don't know where it is. You're like, well, why do I feel this way? Why is it painful? Why is this painful? I haven't hurt my arm. I didn't know where the pain was and I felt really sad about it.

That was really sad. And I remember, God, we're going quite deep on the podcast today. Wow. I remember there was a moment when I was at boarding school. We used to do something at the school called Teddy Bears Picnic, right? Which is where it was the first weekend you were allowed to come see your, well, your family were allowed to come to the school. And it was two weeks into your first two weeks of the time. And I can still, I can still remember the feeling. I can still remember the smells. I can still remember what it looks like. It was obviously such a prominent moment in my life. We were coming to see my brother for the first time after two weeks.

I remember, we shared a room together. We lived together. Yes. We're everything together. And I saw him and he was absolutely fine. We had this amazing picnic and it was lovely. And we got shown around the school from him. And everyone was saying, oh, you're going to come here in two years. And I was a bit like, okay, I guess I didn't. But I wasn't really clocking that.

And my brother, we went into the sports hall area. And my brother said, okay, bye, mom, dad, bye, by Jamie. He gave me a big hug and walked off. And when he walked off, I saw he was crying. And it was so sad. And that for me is like one of the saddest moments because he had to be brave. in front of all of us. And still to this day, it makes me go,

oh my God, because you go back to that naive, but that was really tough. And since then, my brother and I have had always a, not a different relationship, but it became, we were thick as thieves to being in a relationship where he was the older person and I was the younger person. And he had his friends and then I had my friends,

but before that we were just like this the entire time. That was very sad. That's sad that he felt he couldn't show his, you guys, He was sad. No, because he had to be brave. For me, though, he was always for me. Do you think you've always had to be brave as well?

Do you think that's part of, like, your family makeup that you're like, let's not show vulnerability because we have to be brave? No, I think, I think that I've, I think that I'm always pretty good at, I'm, what I do is I, I'm pretty good in the moment. It's afterwards that I then, then it hits me. Like delayed emotion. It delayed emotion. I'm very good at being resilient in the space.

And that probably comes from being at boarding school, right? You're thrown into a dormitory with 12 people and, you know, you lie in bed and you're missing your home. You're in a stranger's room with 12 other strangers. And you then have to just hold it all in. And so you learn to hold it all in from that age. Do you think it's good to hold it all in? No, it's very good to let it out. And anyone listening, you should let emotion out.

Let it all out the entire time. But that was a really sad time. What's the baddest thing you've ever done? Is there something... The baddest thing? Have you done... Okay, here's the one. Have you done something really bad in the past

that has remained with you, like a skeleton in your closet? You've never told anybody? Um... Is there something really bad that I've done? Well, there's a difference like doing, like, bad things. Like, I did some bad things of, like... At school I once pooed in my friend's bin. Does he know?

Well, he didn't know it was me. Does he know today that it was... His name was George Lines. Does George Lines know that you put in his film? There you go, George. He didn't know who Poon has been. What's George doing now? I don't know.

I haven't seen George Lines since school. They did that. And then, I mean, it did some weird things at school. I used to steal stuff a lot. Okay, this is interesting. I used to, like, steal things. When you're a kid? Yeah, but then.

What was it about? Oh, when I was a kid. kid I love stealing stuff as like a magpie, I love like shiny things. So I steal like money from like my parents and just like keep it. Oh my god we've been talking about this recently. Let's get my mum in. Mom, he's been stealing as a kid. Mom. Jamie was talking about how when he was little he used to steal quite a lot. And yeah. So maybe you could ask him about it because we're worried about that, aren't we? Yeah, we are. Okay.

My mum's upset because if my kid steals something, she thinks it's because she feels that she hasn't got the money for it. But I don't think it's about that. I think it's for another reason. Like, what motivates a child from your memory to steal from a like reliable, safe adult? Because you want something that you can't have. From my side, I think it was. Yeah, but how did you know you couldn't have it?

Because if she'd asked for it, she probably would have had it. Because I knew it had value. And that was quite exciting. I remember as a kid, right? I remember as a kid, we had, my mom had like a garden with daffodils in it. And she said to me, if you go and pick all the dead heads off the daffodils, I'll pay you some money. Yeah. So I went brilliant. So then I negotiated with my mom the cost per daffodil head. And you did them all.

And I did them all. And so she didn't pay me because it was too many. Well, because you took the nice ones away as well. I just did everything. I just took everything. There were no daffodils. So I came back with like buckets and buckets and buckets of daffodels. And she was like, I can't pay you like 50 quid because you're four or whatever you are. So, but it was always in my mind that it had value. So maybe your daughter knows it has value.

Yeah, but why isn't it? And that's exciting. It's much nicer to make money than to steal it, isn't it? Yeah, but it's, it's. Because it loses value if you steal it. I think that's a risk taker as well, though. Do you? Yeah, I would say that.

That's, Nick, it's definitely not right. And you have to be like, that is not right. Yeah, I know. And you have to say that, I think. But also, part of me would go, it's a bit of a risk taker there like a little bit of... It's a bit entrepreneurial

It's a little bit like we're not going to spend it on nothing but it's... But also they understand the value of it which is a good thing. Understanding the value of... That's a positive angle. We're looking at it in a different view then.

But then how do you... Then how do you discipline children? What do you say to them? Do you get cross? Do you get angry? You will sometimes. Yeah. And sometimes you'll regret it.

The worst is when you have to sometimes sort of pretend to be cross, even though you're looking at each other going, this is hilarious. Takes a lot out of you, you know, actually, to be angry with children. Takes a lot out of you. Do your teacher voice. No, I'm not going to do a teacher voice. Try and tell me off. No, I can't. But anyway,

Jamie Lang, I'm disappointed. I'm disappointed in your behaviour. Oh my God, we're right through it. How could someone, she would always do the compliment sandwich at school. So she'd be like, how could someone so unbelievably wonderful as you. Do such a terrible thing. Do such a terrible thing.

I'm shocked. I'm shocked. I never thought I'd have you down as like that. And so they'd feel like they were like special. But then she'd also tell them one of the same. Because you will find that when you have a child that you will get angry. And that's quite a hard one, I think. That was good. Thank you. Do you know what the bad is it? I used to lie. Do you still find it easy to lie?

Or is that something you used to do? I think I'm, I think I'm, I think, I'm a good liar. No, I'm not a good liar. I'm actually not a good liar, but I used to lie. That was the badest thing that I used to do. I used to, basically, as a kid, I used to lie. So I used to say, I haven't done something when I had done something. And that was bad. And then, what happens is you become, you're seen as dishonest. And then, when you're dishonest, it's quite hard to get your people to people to come around to believing that you, you are honest. And so then the lying went into then dishonesty, where I would then say things to people, I was a people pleases, so I'd promise things and then not to live. And then that was a problem because then what happened is the lying then went into dishonesty. And so that was quite bad. And then I think the, I think actually the baddest thing that I was is that I was a real people pleaser for a long time. And I still am, but I was way worse before, where I used to promise people something and never deliver. What's the weirdest thing you've promised someone? Oh my God.

There was a, there was a party that we used to have when we were younger called The Feathers. And it was where we'd go and like everyone would snog at this party. And I invited like, the tickets were like impossible to get. They were so hard to get. It was like Glastonbury. It was like Glastonbury for like 14-year-olds. And I promised 10 of my friends that I had the tickets. And they all turned up to the house ready to go and I only had two tickets.

And so then I had to say to the friend, sorry, the tickets never arrived and I made up some excuse. So they just never went to the party. Didn't that feel awful? Awful. Couldn't you just hustle like get there? in the fire escape. Can't do that, not for the feathers. Impossible to get them in for the feathers.

There's no hustle on the feathers. There was no hustle in the feathers. There was no hustle in the feathers. That was quite... That's called being a sheister. Yeah, a sheister. I used to... Letting people down was like what I used to do.

That was like bad. Did that not feel awful to you? Yeah, really bad. It made you feel really terrible. But was it to do with power? Was it like something in you wanted them to want something from you? And even though you knew you couldn't give it, you enjoyed the power.

of being able to promise it. No, what it was is that in the moment, telling the truth in the moment was so much worse than thinking about our set in the future. So in the moment I would just want to people please, I would hate letting people down. But do you not, as an anxious person,

did you not just get anxiety closer to the time that you had to tell the truth? There's an amazing Mark Twain quote, which is something like, if you're constantly telling the truth, you never have to remember anything. Yes. Yeah, and it's a really good one.

Yeah. And actually... My posh boyfriend says that. That must be a posh thing. Is it a posh thing? Yeah. Yeah, it's true, right? And it's true.

If you're constantly telling the truth, you don't have to remember anything. And if you're slightly always being dishonest. Would you say that's how you operate now? Yeah, I think so. Because it's better. Especially, especially like in, you know, in relationships. When I was doing Maine and Chelsea,

I wasn't very honest in relationships. And I wasn't honest with people dating. Did you do bad things on that show for attention? Um. So you'd be like, I know I can get this plot line if I do awful things. No. Come on. Abmit it.

It's in the past. Are you, how do I? You've got mischievous face. No, but it was more like, it was, I was always about making a really great show. Yes, which means that you did do bad things to manipulate. the narrative. I think the bad things would also have happened without the show being there possibly as well,

but the show enhanced it. But you like the attention you got when it was like, this week. This week, Jamie does this. Jamie's fucked someone else over. And then you get the cut to the girl going, ah! But I think everyone within Manny Chelsea was always...

Yeah, it was part of it. It was part of it. You're thrown into a Big Brother house where everyone was doing... But it doesn't make it good, like it's kind of bad. was kind of very bad. But what I've learned from all of that experience is that like being honest is so important. Being a people pleaser really doesn't please anyone actually. And so I'm trying my best to like not be a people pleaser to be very honest and straightforward.

Yeah, because often it has the adverse effect. Is there anything you've done to anyone in your life that you wished you'd said sorry to that didn't? Oh my God. I think some of my relationships that I had in the past, I could have, I could have, I could have been better in them. I think I was young, I was doing Made in Chelsea, I was experiencing everything that had to offer, I was out, I was drinking, and I just wasn't the best version of myself, probably. And because I wasn't the best version of myself, people who were in relationships with me probably became not very best versions of themselves. And I could have been better. So I would probably say sorry to some of those people. We've talked and we could talk forever I mean I just love talking to you

On and off camera So do I But the final bit is just What makes you glad What makes me glad Um Uh friendship Like truthfully that's word

Friendship with you Friendship with my friends Yeah So So friendship Just for yeah I realise that the happiest I am Is when I'm really connected with friends

Friendship is the best thing in the world That makes me glad Imagine if work was like this moment all day every day. I mean, I would never stop working. Be unbelievable. Because all the stuff behind the scenes is a bit like, but this is brilliant.

This is the best. And I'm so proud of you and you're the best. I'm so glad that you came on and I'm so, I just wouldn't want to talk. Pete, I love you the best. Love you so much. Thank you. Jamie, you've run over and you've got to run to your next meeting.

I'm so sorry that I talk so much. I adore you. I adore you. You're the best. Bye, everyone. Bye, House. Bye, Pappy. Bye guys.

Good luck, bye. Don't flash anyone on the way home. Well, wasn't that great? All of the links of everything we mentioned in the show can be found in the episode description. Oh, and while you're there, why not subscribe and follow the show too? See you all next time. Later's potatoes.