Mad, Sad and Bad with Paloma Faith - Jen Brister: I Want To Be On The Right Side Of History

Episode Date: August 4, 2025

Jen Brister is someone who I admire not only for her fearless approach to comedy and life in general, but for her vocal stance on what’s happening in Palestine. She runs a non-profit to help families over there, All Our Relations and we met at a Palestine Solidarity event. Ever since then, I knew I wanted to have her on the pod...We chatted about the crossover with comedy, politics and questioning authority and were lucky enough to be joined by the amazing Professor Nick Maynard, a leading surgeon, who had just got back from a trip to Gaza two days prior. We spoke to him about what it’s like on the ground over there and how it feels to now be back in the UK. My amazing mate, Tai Shani, who’s a Turner Prize winning artist, and daughter of Holocaust survivors, also popped in to speak about why, as a Jewish woman, she feels so compelled to speak out against the horrors of what is happening in Palestine. This is a really special episode for me and something I’ve wanted to make for a long time. I wanted to re-humanise a situation that all too often gets turned into stats on a news report. Thank you for listening.If you’d like to see or donate to any of the charities mentioned in the episode, they’re all here:….The Sameer Project - https://chuffed.org/project/113222-tent-campaign-the-sameer-project The Zaynab Project - https://thezaynabproject.org/All Our Relations - https://allourrelations.co.uk/Angie: https://www.instagram.com/angieq8?igsh=ZHJ3NmRpd3R2MncyInara: https://inara.org/Medical Aid For Palestinians - https://www.map.org.uk/#JENBRISTER #PALOMAFAITH #MADSADBAD—Find us on: Instagram / TikTok / YouTube—Credits:Producer: Jemima RathboneVideo: Jake Ji & Josh BennetSound: Rafi AmsiliMix: Jay BealeOriginal music: BUTCH PIXYSocial Media: Laura CoughlanExec Producer for JamPot: Jemima RathboneExec Producers for Idle Industries: Dave Granger & Will Macdonald Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hello, I'm Paloma Faith and this is my show. Each week I welcome someone fantastic into my home to talk about what makes them mad, sad and bad. Roll recording. Thank you. Oh, pleasure. So happy to see you. Come in. What a lovely place.

Thank you. It's a bit manic. To you, she's a hugely popular stand-up comedian and is currently on tour all over the world with her show Reactive. She's been on TV shows like Live at the Apollo, mock the week and any number of radio four comedy shows, has hosted her own podcast and written and starred in her own short, past caring with Rosie Jones. She's also incredibly outspoken about the situation in Palestine and has set up all our relations, a non-profit which supports 21 families and four community-led aid projects across Gaza. But to me, she's somebody I recently met at a solidarity event for Palestine.

and immediately felt connected to because the community of people that are in support of this terrible, terrible, terrible heinous genocide is tight and strong and a new found world of friendship for all of us. It is terrible to be bonded by such a awful thing,

but I do think she's amazing and an important voice. It's Jen Brista. What a lovely intro. Do you think questioning authority to make someone a good comedian? Definitely. Definitely.

I mean, what are we if we're not putting a mirror up to what is happening and going, what the fuck, man? Loads of my audience, I don't think, believe that I'm correct. Oh, really? Yeah. I think you're different as a musician. Because music, you're connecting with a lot more people. Loads of people say, oh, stay out of politics.

Stick to music. Oh, I'll get that as well. We came for a laugh. I'll come here to listen to you, tell the joke. Not politics. I'm like, well, you know, I think as comedians, we have the privilege of being able to step out

outside of the establishment so that we can lampoon it so that we can criticise it. You know, I don't consider myself an entertainer. I don't host a TV show, entertainment show on the BBC. I'm not like hosting a quiz show, you know, midweek at 6pm. I'm a stand-up comedian. And the privilege of being a stand-up comedian

is to say what I want, when I want, how I want. And no one, no one can tell me what to say. It's a perfect job for you. It's a perfect job for me. And, you know, I've always felt that. And the people that would judge me and should judge me and do judge me are my audience. And if they think I'm out of line, then they won't buy tickets to my show. And that's how I make my money.

It's like I tour. I'm a touring comedian and I make my money being on the road. And they will be the litmus as to whether I'm doing the right or wrong thing. And my audience, certainly at the moment, believe I am correct. Tell me about feeling mad. What makes you mad? Well, you know, I was thinking about the things that make me feel mad. And I did write a show called Meaningless back in 2018,

which was a show of complete fury. And at the time, I thought it was just because I was mad at the world. But actually, what it was is I needed HRT. I did not have enough estrogen. Yeah, so I did spend a good three or four years completely bananas because I wasn't on HRT. So I would... It is a blessing. It is a blessing.

It is a gift and inject it into your eyeballs if you can get it. So I would say that that is one of the things that that's made me mad. But probably truthfully and more honestly, what is making me absolutely insane with Fury is what is happening in Gaza right now and in the West Bank. and the constant gaslighting when you try to point out that there is a genocide happening. And I think that that for me has, in many ways, is the thing that spurs me on to campaign and to fundraise. But, yeah, it's an everyday fury and I don't really understand how we're here. No. No, we look at the history books and we say, oh, these things, the Holocaust, you know, happened because people didn't know it's happening, but we can't say we didn't know now. It's like, how are people looking at all of this and just able to ignore it? That is maddening to me. I don't know if it's even, you know, when we're looking at our governments, it's just not important.

human life. Human life, you know, there's an argument that if we had known about the Holocaust, we would have stopped it. But Britain didn't accept Jewish refugees or accepted very few Jewish refugees. We didn't do, you know, had Britain known that a Holocaust was occurring, would we have done anything to stop it? I mean, at this point, I'd probably say no. I don't think they would have done anything. I mean, it's clear to me that the rule of law and all of the, you know, things that we're we understood we're in place to protect human life are actually a joke, you know,

because we can see what's happening in Gaza. You know, the people of Gaza are documenting their own genocide. They are literally saying, look here at what is happening to us. And our governments are sitting on their hands and choosing willfully and purposefully to not only ignore them, but to keep funding it, to keep selling arms. that are the very... And profit from it and profit from this.

And I think, you know, that is the thing that really... And I feel like a lot of people who've been campaigning, you know, like yourself and have been outspoken, it's really a difficult thing to come to terms with,

that realisation that there is no international law, you know, law that protects human life if it's not in the interests in the vested interests of our government and of profit and power and money and greed. It's just devastating. It is devastating. And then what are the long-term repercussions of that?

If we look at globally, it happens to this one race of people. And then you think, oh, so international law doesn't mean anything. And then how does any law mean anything? Exactly. And then what do we end up with anarchy? And then on the flip side, you can have. an elderly woman holding a placard being arrested for terrorism.

For saying she's supporting... For being in support of... It's completely bananas. And I think, you know, I don't know what will happen when this genocide finally comes to an end. When it does finally end, I don't know where we'll be

as a country. Certainly in terms of our ability to go in and start dictating to people about, you know, what is right what is wrong and how our democracy is the, you know, the envy of the world is a, you know, I mean, I think all of that's over forever. And I don't think that's a bad thing because, you know, our Western imperialist past,

our British imperialist past has always been something that has been taught to us, particularly when growing up, is something that we should have great pride in. But actually, it doesn't take much to scratch the surface of that and realize. It involved the death and of many people. Yeah, it involved more than one genesis. side. And theft. And theft. Yeah. Just check out the British Museum if you want to see how much we've Nicked. I think we should get in a special guest that I've brought ahead, Dr. Nick Maynard. Oh my gosh. Please. So many people have written to me and asked, you know, questioning, you know, gaslighting,

all kinds of things and said, how do you know it's not AI? So I thought it was really, which I can't even believe we have to defend. But I thought it was really important that we get. And like a wonderful doctor here, who's literally returned from Gaza itself two days ago. And he's going to come and talk to us about things he's seen with his own two eyes. So Nick Maynard, for anybody who doesn't know, is a leading surgeon and the chair of medical aid for Palestinians. And has been going to Gaza for over 15 years. And he's just got back two days ago. So why do you both feel that people have...

become so desensitized to the images that they're seeing. And you personally in the flesh must feel quite a broken yourself from seeing it in person. How can we explain that there are so many people who are able to just look past to the net? I'm not sure I can explain it. I mean, I think you get good at compartmentalizing things when you're out there. You've got a job to do. We're operating all day, often at night as well. You compartmentalise. It is distressing. Don't get me wrong. And we had evenings when there'd be tears and we relied on each other hugely for support. The difficulty is always getting back and then processing things over

several weeks. But of course, we get the opportunity to do that. Yeah, and they don't. The people out there don't get any opportunity at all. And the damage is recurrent and keeps happening and happening and happening. And what do you say to those people that are constantly questioning image and footage and saying, it's propaganda, it's not real? As somebody who's seen it. I mean, I think some of them can't be persuaded.

And to be honest, I don't waste my time. I think if they are, if they want to learn, if they want to listen, if they want to be educated, then absolutely I will do that. and I've got many examples of people who started 22 months ago thinking that this, you know, completely on the side of Israel and these are all terrorists and have changed their tunes completely. But these are people who want to listen, want to hear and are willing to change their minds. Sadly, there are many people who aren't like that. So to be honest, I don't waste my time on people like that. This section is all about sadness, which I think is self-explanet.

Can you explain when you went to Gaza and this trip and how long for and maybe what did you see? So I went into Gaza on June the 22nd and so I spent just about a month in Gaza this occasion. It's my third trip there since October the 7th, 2023. I've been out many, many times before then. And each time I go to Gaza, particularly those three trips since October 2020. Each time I go, I think, well, I'm prepared for this. I know Gaza well. I've been talking to people daily, friends of mine out there,

and I think I'll be prepared, and each time I'm not remotely prepared. And this most recent trip, I had four weeks out there. I came out two days ago. I wasn't prepared. I saw things that I never would have dreamt I would see in my lifetime. Quite a few of my friends have been killed out there. I saw terrible malnutrition. And there was quite a difference in the narrative of this trip.

And previous trips, I've seen predominantly explosive injuries from bombs. I mean, awful injuries, babies, children, adults. And I saw a lot of that on this occasion, an operation, a lot of them. But this trip, I also saw loads of gunshot wounds, which I hadn't seen many in previous trips. I'd seen injuries from quadcopters, the remote control drones which shoot at gars and civilians. But I saw a lot of injuries of gunshot wounds, particularly on young male teenagers who were shot at the food distribution points. One anisicist I worked with went there between operations. He rushed out to go and get food because his family hadn't eaten for two or three days.

And they've described all the same thing that these young teenage boys, are being shot by Israeli soldiers and by quadcopters. And many of them being killed. I operate on lots of them. And what made it even worse was the targeting of specific body parts on different days. Like for sport? Yeah, that's what it appears to be. I mean, I admit I wasn't at the food distribution points,

but I've had so many descriptions. And what we did see, what I can bear witness, to is the clustering of these injuries of particular body parts on particular day. So one day we'd see these young teenage boys coming in with mainly gunshots to the head or the neck, most of them dead. The next day will be gunshot wounds to the abdomen, the next day of the chest, the next day of the arms. And on one day, 13, 12 days ago when I was there, four young teenage boys came in, all of whom

had been shot in the testicles, all of them, specific target. So the clustering was far too clear to be coincidental. And I can only assume this was target practice, playing game, whatever you want to call it. Jen, can you tell me any stories that you've heard from people on the ground there, but, you know, particular anecdotes of your families that you've been helping? Well, I've got two young men, and they're not who I talk to every day. They're not part of the families that we look after, but they are part of the families that we deliver food to.

And so they don't get as much support because financially we just don't have the money to give everybody, you know, all the help that we can. What we do is we give food. But they, and I share their campaigns, but they come to me and they say, Jen, run out of food. And I'm going to go to the aid distribution point today. And I will say to them, okay,

what can I do? One, to persuade you not to go and two, what can we do to get you money? Because it's very difficult, you know, so many people's donations are being split in so many ways. It's very hard to say, please donate to this young man. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, specific people.

It's very difficult. People are going, oh, I don't know where to put my money. And so they go. And they go. And, you know, one young man, Ibrahim, he went, and he got a bag of flour. and then he was beaten by soldiers and they took the bag of flour off him

and they gave it to a merchant who would then sell it for a huge amount of money. And we, you know, you hear stories of that there's, you know, that there's a specific amount of time they have to get a bag of flour. And if they don't get the bag of flour in time, then the soldiers open fire. And that's what's happening.

It's not a distribution point. It is a death trap and it is a game for these cruel, I don't know, psychopaths who pick off young men as sport. And the way these distribution points are designed are to create that sort of chaos. They've been in great detail described to, and I've seen photos. They're compounds where the food is in the compound, the door is, the gate is locked. there's enough food for about 300 people they wait till several thousand gardens have collected outside

then they open this very small gate to allow them to go in and it is complete chaos as rioting and then as Jen said then after a while the Israeli soldiers start opening fire and shooting them So awful

Jen as a mum how do you feel listening to these things Oh it's just devastating isn't it I mean I feel like as a mum the people that I that I that are all the volunteers that work with me in all our relations it's it's they are all mums and most of the people that I work with that are campaigning our mums and most of the people that I see chaining themselves to fences and you know doing whatever they can to stop this genocide our moms and I think it's because we look at our children and go how how can we let this continue you know you look in the face of your child and you go, what would I do if this was my, you know, happening to my son? You know, I remember speaking to people a year ago and we all had this kind of, myself included, this, yeah, this hope, this naivety that this cannot be allowed to continue and it will come to an end and people will come to their senses and at some point there'll be a tipping point. And then I realized that there is

no tipping point. We've been well over that tipping point. Like also as a mother, I've like held my own children in my arms when they've been sick or gone to hospital and been so terrified, you know, so compassionate towards them, you don't want them to suffer. But, you know, in these pictures of women holding those children who are literally just skin and bone now and also kids, my own children's age, just crying and saying, I'm hungry. Like, where's humanity gone? No answer to that. It's such a hopelessness.

And going to the, I had a, I spent a lot of time on the paediatric unit. I had a young 11-year-old who had major injuries. I spent the whole of one-night operating on her. And she was on pediatric and tend to care. So I went there every day. I went to the other parts of the wards. And I saw a lot of these children. I got to know them, their families.

And they were there without any formula feed, for example. or very, very small amounts of formula feed for the newborns and the infants. And none of them, no formula feed had got into Israel for months since the last ceasefire. And I know many instances of doctors who, having been told about the shortage of formula feed, would bring formula feed in to Gaza only to have it confiscated, taken away by the Israeli border guards. And I don't mean just taking everything, specifically taking every single carton of formula feed out of their cases and saying you can't take that in. Just formula feed.

We're always told, don't take anything in that could be used as a weapon. So we can't take any surge and instrument for obvious reasons. But what danger could formula feed do? So they are clearly targeting that and stopping it going in. And, you know, our politicians know this, Paloma. where they know it. After previous visits, I've gone down to see them. I've taken, and I'll do it again,

I've taken in large, laminated photographs of dead babies. They've seen it with their eyes. I've shown it. I've put it under their noses and said, this is what's happening and it's had no impact whatsoever. But it's mad because if, you know, there isn't zero excuse to say that they haven't seen it. Absolutely.

Absolutely. They've seen it. You know, it's just a lie. And the fact that our Prime Minister and our Foreign Secretary can't call it what it is, which is a genocide, is a disgrace. It's a disgrace to the British people, frankly. And it will be a stain on our history forever that we have allowed this to happen. And I don't think, really, as a nation, we will properly recover. And that's not hyperbole. I really believe that. And then a very strongly worded letter from Kirstama, well, you can shove that up your ass. Not mentioning once who is starving people. Who is blocking aid? They were given this evidence 18 months ago. Yeah.

Back in January 24 when I came out for my first visit, I went down and showed this evidence there. And, you know, they come out with these words, no actions. In the meantime, they're still supplying arms to Israel. They're still sending reconnaissance flights every single day from Cyprus over Gaza, providing that information to these railies. They're still hosting Israeli politicians and military in our country. So these words are meaningless. It's devastating.

How do you feel today just being here in the UK when you've just left Palestine? So when you... Sorry. I have this real, real complex sort of myriad of emotions coming out. Of course, having had four weeks out there in pretty awful conditions, there's a relief. We didn't think we were going to get out. We initially told our exit had been denied. And then at the very last minute, we were allowed to leave.

So there's a lot of relief. There's excited about seeing my wife and my doggies and my grown-up children and everything. But you're also feeling immense sadness that you're leaving your friends behind. you're feeling sad because you're leaving your patients behind and I can't stop thinking about Habiba my 11-year-old patient whose esophagus was shattered by a bomb which I reconstructed

and she's still sick on intensive care she won't eat and drink for weeks and weeks so she's totally reliant upon liquid feed into a tube that I put into her intestine and we've been struggling to find any feed for her so I worry all every day I wake up thinking about her and you feel guilt that you've left and you've left your friends behind and then you start planning for your next visit

when can I go in and that requires very delicate negotiations with my wife of course So it's a real... She must be really worried. Yeah and it's it's it's very tough for her And she is a as passionate supporter of Gaza as I am She's marching all the time in London enormously passionate But yeah it was very tough for her when I was out there, particularly when, you know, we, we, Natos was in the red zone,

so it's surrounded by the Israeli army. At one point, the military came within about 200 metres to the hospital. Everyone thought the hospital was about to be invaded. And that was being shown back home as well. So yeah, my wife, Funula, was really worried about it all. But I go with her complete blessing and support. Thank you for what you've done. And thanks for coming to tell us because I just hope that people at home are listening and not denying it anymore. So it's really important. You're a hero. Well, thank you for asking me.

And I think with people like you guys speaking out about this, you are reaching a different audience to that which I can reach. And I think it's terribly important, terribly important. Thank you. So we'll all carry on doing it together. 100%. So it's really difficult, I think, Jen, to think, speak or even know what to say about anything else at the moment. And I feel like those of us who are obsessed with it, which we are, find it difficult to talk about anything else. But just going, you know, back to what Nick was saying about, he just thanked us so humbly and nicely after all the heroic things he's done for speaking out about this.

And I would say that I'd heard from you in previous interviews and stuff, and I felt like I've related to the fact that you are inclined to questioning authority. Yeah, I don't like authority. Yeah. Where do you think that comes from? And when was a first sign that you knew that about yourself? I don't, well, I think what I do is like I always have questions. And I think that's just, like I've got three brothers and we're all very similar in that way. We all sort of struggle with being, it's not so much being told what to do,

but if we feel like someone is being unjust or we feel like somebody is doing the wrong thing, we'll question it. Strong sense of justice. Yeah, and I get that, I think we get that from our mum. But I... Have you been like that from childhood? I think so, yeah. I think when I was a kid, I always had questions, especially at school.

You know, and I know that that used to piss teachers off. So I'd always get chucked out of class. And I remember asking a question about something in a classroom, which I thought was perfectly reasonable. And I got kicked out of class for asking a question. I can't even remember. It was just something like something to, I just genuinely went, I don't understand that.

Why would we do that? doesn't make any sense sort of thing. And then my teacher went, how dare you? That's, you know, question me. And so off I went to detention. And after that, I was just like, this is bullshit, man. And then I ended up in detention, like, every Monday for about three months. And I just realized that all these teachers that were supposed to be, that I was supposed

to be looking up to were dicks. And most of them didn't know what the fuck they were talking about. And they were terrible at their job. And by the way, if there was a teacher that I, in. enjoyed and I respected, I was the best pupil you'd ever have. I was the same. I'd like study like crazy. But if I thought you were a prick, I'd just, yeah, I would probably be disruptive.

I was quite lucky because loads of my teachers were socialist and teachers that applauded those of us that questioned their authority. Oh, that's great. Good on you, mate. I'm going to explain that. Oh, I wish I'd had teachers like that. Or would be like, come and do your homework and let us have a little joint in the class. Oh, my God.

It was the best school. No, ours was shut down for obvious reasons. But some of us did well. Do you think people confuse kindness? With weakness. Yeah. Or like being like so you can be kind and bad like Robin Hood, for example. Like do you think that, you know, sometimes when you're bad or badass,

you're actually just doing the best thing for humanity? Yeah, definitely. I think always lead with. kindness, but if you are a prick, I probably will tell you. And I do have that reputation rightly or wrongly. I think I'm much more mellow than I was. When have you told someone they were a prick and what were the circumstances? I mean, I can't, I mean, that's a very long list, Paloma. Where would I, where would I start? Just think of one time. I think of one time. I just remember a comedian being a bit of a creep around another comedian and I gave him a

telling off. Yeah. That's like, what are you doing? Good. I gave Boris Johnson a bollicking. Good. I was on a chat show with Boris Johnson. Really?

When he was mayor of London and he was doing his PR campaign and he was obviously a Tory and they were going on and on about the perfect nuclear family at the time. That was part of their campaign. Being like, you know, straight couples raising two kids. staying together even though they hate each other and promoting that. Like him. I remember going up to him and being like,

mate, so you know your statistics that you keep shoving down everyone's throat? I'm from a broken home. Yeah, yeah. And look what I'm doing. So how do you explain that? Yeah, exactly. And he was just like, well,

how do you explain that to your 17 children? Which is my impression of him speaking. Yeah. And I was like, what? Fuck or And then went on the show Swivel! Yeah.

I'm glad. And he's not used to that. He's not used to a woman telling him anything. He's just one of those guys that I think he just sees women in one particular way and he doesn't know what to do with them outside of that. I think a lot of men have that issue with me as a lesbian. They're like, wow, I can't sleep at us.

What do I do with her? You know, it's like, listen. listen to me and then... That's why she's funny. Yeah. One of the lads. Fuck that as well. I just feel I really resent the fact that they might think they might be able to sleep with me.

That you when you say it like that, like, you can't sleep with me either. Yeah, no, but all men think that. Oh, yeah, I could definitely fuck her. Yeah. If she wasn't a lesbian, yeah. They'd be like, no. No, not even then, mate. Not if you're the last man on the planet.

And we were going to save his human race. We have to save humanity. Yeah, I still wouldn't. It's the shit show. This podcast, mad, bad and sad, is can be quite sad, tragic. Yeah. So I think it's time that we move on to the glad section. And I feel like all the work that you're doing and all the work that Nick's doing,

there are some ways that people can help in this situation. People who feel powerless and there are some great human beings out there. and great sources of information that do make me glad and inspired. So I'd like to bring Nick back. And then maybe you guys can tell us a bit about hopeful things that you've seen from, you know, the work that you've done and the way that people at home might feel less powerless and able to contribute.

Well, I can recommend a number of different organisations on the ground in Gaza that are feeding people. You have the Samir Project. ZANAB project, all our relations, which is the non-profit, which I co-founded. We are, you know, we've got, you know, four aid distributions that we're doing as well as looking after these 21 families, which is 350 people. And we'll put the links to all these. Yeah.

Also, there's this remarkable, a remarkable woman who, her name's Angie, and I don't have, I don't know what her surname is, I just know her as Angie. And I will give you her details. but she has run so many incredible projects in and around northern Gaza and she has been fighting and campaigning and trying to get formula, baby formula, into Gaza. And she has been sort of, you know, reasonably successful in getting that back in. And so I would really like to signpost to people to Angie because she is, I feel like she's a force of nature and she's been incredible. And she's literally saved thousands of people's lives.

Amazing. What about you, Nick? Yeah, I mean, I think over the last 22 months, we've seen some of the very, very worst of humanity, and we've been discussing all that. But let's not forget, as Jen said, we've seen some of the very best of humanity. And I am utterly inspired by incomplete awe of the Palestinians

I've worked with in Gaza. The doctors, the nurses, they are profoundly inspirational human beings. beings. I mean, one of the reasons I keep going to Gaza is because I love the people there. They're the most beautiful people. Before this awful sequence of atrocities started, they've been occupied, as we know. I've never been to Gaza in 15 years without witnessing aerial bombardments. This is a way of life for them and they are the most hospitable, beautiful, generous, selfless people. And those qualities shine even more during the current atrocities.

And when I think about, you know, particularly I've talked about the doctors and nurses, I go out there with medical aid for Palestinians. As you know, one of the reasons they're such a magnificent organisation is the local Garzan MAP staff who I've got to know so well over the years who look after me when I'm out there. They put their lives on the line every single day protecting us when there was gunfire. aimed at our accommodation block.

There were bullet holes in the wall next to where we were sleeping. They were the ones protecting us. And I see their faces. There were tears when we said goodbye to them. So when I feel very low about what's going on, I think about my friends there, my Palestinian friends, my Garzian friends, who inspire me beyond belief.

And that's what keeps me going, keeps many of us going. you're very special both of you no it's really hopeful because sometimes we feel like we're living alone in this screaming into the void like what is anyone doing and it's just really I feel very privileged that you've both come and shared that with us and hopefully people at home will start engaging with some of the organisations you've mentioned and we just

just have to keep fighting the good fight. We do indeed, absolutely. Thanks so much, Jen. Honestly, it's hard to know what to say anymore. I know, but I'm so grateful for you for inviting me. I'm so grateful and keep fighting with a good fight. You too. See you later.

Good luck with your show tonight. Thank you. Jen's left and I've managed to keep Nick here for another 10 minutes, which is so amazing. Thank you for staying. I'm happy to introduce you to Tai Shani, who is a Turner Prize winning artist. I'm very proud to say. But we were both in this quite amazing project together when we were in our early 20s, which was a ghost train. We were both ghosts and it was a whole art. We were scaring people for a living and it was an art funded project.

And that's how we met and became friends and since then have stayed in each other's lives. But what was interesting was, was I saw Ty recently. I was aware that Ty was born to Israeli parents who were also Holocaust survivors. And I was interested in talking to her about Gaza. And when I heard about her thoughts and feelings, she convinced me to make this episode. She was like, you absolutely have to make this episode. So we decided to have a chat. And here she is.

This is Ty. Hi. Lovely to meet you. Ty, tell me how your family history in the Holocaust has affected your view of what's happening in Gaza. Yeah, on both sides of my family have very kind of implicated Holocaust histories. My grandmother was actually pregnant with my mum in a labour camp and had an abortion and it failed.

and my mum was born in June 1945, so just at the end of the war. And she was actually considered a Holocaust survivor by the German state and was in receipt of reparations. So I think I did spend a lot of time trying to understand how levels of dehumanization are possible and how huge groups of people, can come to dehumanize other human beings to the point of subjecting them to such brutality and just relentless kind of torture.

So that's always been in my own mind, I guess, trying to understand depravity in a way. It's really apparent when you live there that it's not part of a conversation. People don't talk about it. there's just a very kind of nebulous form of knowledge around Gaza and the West Bank for liberal Israelis. It's really profound and all-encompassing dehumanization. It's beyond that. It's an invisibility, if that makes sense. Have you had any Israeli people work with you in Gaza to help?

Not in Gaza, no. I mean, I have, I've spent quite a bit of time in the past in the West Bank, and indeed I've visited and given lectures in some Israeli hospitals. So I have had quite a lot of contact with Israeli doctors. And the ones I've come across have been very liberal, very enlightened in my view. And this was in Hadassah Hospital in Jerusalem. I haven't been to any of the Tel Aviv hospitals. And they were very, very liberal and not happy with the, way the palace, what was happening. But in, in Gaza, no. It's a shame, isn't it? Because you'd think

this neighbouring country that you'd see more volunteers? There are people that do volunteer, you know, there are volunteers that go to the West Bank and try and protect families from settlers that are trying to steal their homes. But again, it's, it's, I left, I move to UK in 2001, which is a really long time ago now. But the society has definitely moved to the right in general. I've seen footage of people 30 minutes away from where this genocide's been happening, going to the beach, like having a nice time on the beach. I don't think anyone can explain it really.

I think there's a darkness to that that is very. denying. It's denial, but to me it is years of dehumanization does that. I do think that. I really do. I think the kind of inability and I think that dehumanization happens here as well, by the way. I don't think it's particular, I mean, I think it's not exclusive. But I don't think it's exclusive at all. I think that governments in the West, I think people in the West, would never countenance what's happening to white people. I do think that. I think there's a huge level of dehumanizing racism at play here. And obviously over there, it's something that is part of the structure of education, of how people are taught to think about it. So to me, that is the only kind,

It's just so all-encompassing. I think that people are able to do that. You know, people do, yeah, it's zone of interest. You know, people have said the zone of interest has this kind of narrative in it where you see a family that live on the outside of Auschwitz, and it's about how their daily lives and their domestic lives and how they just go about their business, really. And I think that is something that was seen as unfathomable.

And now we're seeing that happening. Yeah, and I definitely feel that for me, speaking out about this, I feel that I am compelled to do that because it's like being done in our name as Jewish people. And it's also an absolute horrific dishonour to our history of persecution. So those are things that I feel

like really are important to me in terms of taking a position on this in a public way. Thank you. How would you describe, Nick, the Gaza that you visited 15 years ago? I mean, I know that it's always, it's a 75 year situation, so it's never been what it should be. But no, it's a great question. And I have so many happy memories of Gaza. I've got happy memories of the last few weeks, just seeing. people but that's tainted by all the horrors. But Gaza, as I think I said earlier, it's a beautiful

place, beautiful people. And yes, they have a tough life. They're in a, they cannot leave. 99% of the population have never been able to leave their country. They're trapped. They're, the water supply, the electricity supply was all, all completely controlled by Israel. So they're off and power cuts. So you'd have sometimes electricity for two hours a day. And has that been going on for 75 years. I don't know. I think it's probably since about 2000, since the occupation since 2008.

But they're happy people. It's remarkable. They're resilient, resourceful. I mean, I would go to Gaza and I'd get severely told off by my wife and I got back because I put on weight out there. Everyone's feeding you. God, absolutely.

The most sensational food would go to people's houses. And I'd said, you know, we've got about 50 people coming around tonight. And they said, no, no, just for you. There were my colleagues. So we were just had the most gloriously lovely time with them. We used to go to the beach. We used to go to the, there's a beautiful harbour in Gaza City.

And at weekends it was a buzzing, buzzing place. So we just, I've got so many, so many happy memories. Quite apart from working with MAP and doing and teaching surgery there, which I've been doing a few years. I've also been, I've taken out a. team of doctors from Oxford every year since 2010 to teach medical students out there. And these medical students are just so bright, so bright. And they inspire you. They just make you feel good about the world when you see these people.

And they're very, very bright. They work hard. So I've got so many happy memories. It's why I kept going back. I mean, initially when I started taking a team of doctors from Oxford to teach out there, it was really difficult. waiting people to go. They'd come to the West Bank.

They're all Gaza. No thanks. But we had our tickets booked to go out in November 23 and obviously had to cancel it. I had a queue of about, you know, 25 people begging to come and join the group to come and teaching Gaza. Because everyone who went, everyone who came in my team just loved it, fell in love with the place. So huge amount of happy memories.

Incredible. Just to end before you finish, both of you. Do you see any possible resolution to this issue? I hope so. We all hope so, don't we? My guys and friends hope so and I think still believe there will be resolution to this,

although I think that belief is diminishing. I think we have to keep hoping for them, really. What would they feel would be the resolution, though? The ceasefire, clearly, the Israeli military leaving Gaza completely. And ultimately, a one-state solution. I don't think any of them believe, I don't believe in possibility of a two-state solution. So I think a one-state solution. I think actually, I mean, they're deeply angry, deeply upset by what's happened.

But I think they want to be able to go back to their homes, their lands. and they believe there should be a one-state solution. So I think that's what they aim. And sorry, just for people who don't know what that means, what would one-state solution involve? Jews and Arabs living together in that land of Palestine. What do you think, Ty? Yeah, I agree.

I agree. And I think there needs to be some kind of reparative process as well that happens alongside that as well. But yeah, I think that is the only realistic solution. Yeah. But we also need to make sure, and they feel very strongly about this, we need to make sure that those who have been responsible for this are held to account. And that means not just the Israeli government, but those who are complicit.

Because they are complicit in what's going on, they need to be held to count as well. Well, thank you. Thanks, Faye. All of the links of everything we mentioned in the show can be found in the episode description.