Mad, Sad and Bad with Paloma Faith - Jordan Stephens: Why We Hurt The People We Love

Episode Date: June 30, 2025

People always tell me that Jordan Stephens is the kind of man we need more of in the world—and honestly, I couldn’t agree more.You might know Jordan as one half of the iconic hip-hop duo Rizzle Kicks, but he’s since grown into a powerful voice across multiple platforms. He’s a podcaster, actor, and now a Sunday Times bestselling author with his raw and brilliant memoir Avoidance, Drugs, Heartbreak and Dogs.Jordan opens up about the damage we do in relationships - how he’s confronted his own past, learned from his mistakes, and worked to heal from the pain he’s caused and the pain he’s carried.We also explore love, masculinity, and why acts of hatred towards an entire gender might be a mirror for something unresolved within ourselves. Jordan holds a type of vulnerability that’s powerful and raw, and his commitment to honesty is both disarming and inspiring.It was a privilege having Jordan on, even though he may have stolen my mum’s heart in the process...#JORDANSTEPHENS #PALOMAFAITH #MADSADBAD—Find us on: Instagram / TikTok / YouTube—Credits:Producer: Jemima RathboneAssistant Producer: Magda Cassidy & Ceyda UzunVideo: Grisha Nikolsky & Josh BennettSound: Shane O'BryneMix: Dan KingOriginal music: BUTCH PIXYSocial Media: Laura CoughlanExec Producer for JamPot: Jemima RathboneExec Producers for Idle Industries: Dave Granger & Will Macdonald Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hello, I'm Paloma Faith and this is my show. Each week I welcome someone fantastic into my home to talk about what makes them mad, sad and bad. Roll recording! I'm so happy to see you. Yes, thank you for the invite. Lovely door. Thank you. Thanks for coming here. It's my pleasure.

I'm a big fan of your mind. Oh, great. Yeah, so come through, let's get in it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Great dogs. Jordan has chosen what he's going to wear, and we're all fine. He's not happy with it, but let's not draw attention to it. To you, he's won half of Rizzle kicks.

His debut album went platinum in its first six months. He's an award-winning TV host and podcaster, as well as an actor and advocate for many social issues. His memoir, avoidance, drugs, heartbreak and dogs, which stands for ADHD, joined mine. Yes, my book. On the Sunday Times bestsellers list. Welcome to the club, Jordan. But to me, he's someone who I've seen become a spokesperson for male growth and intelligence. In many ways, I think that my mom is more proud of him than she is of me.

And she's never even met him. And it's constant. Her reminding me of what an inferior child I am. that's why I didn't invite my mother today. I am jealous in a sort of weird, unknown sibling rivalry way. It's Jordan Stevens. Hey. My mum will be so pleased you're here and she's not allowed to come.

Okay. But where's Jade? How's Jade? Who is Jade and where is she? Don't answer that. Hello, Paloma Faye. We all want to know about Jade. Yes.

So what to colour her toenails today? I don't know. Is she a beautiful? for in real life as she looks off TV. More. More. Oh good. Do you love dogs? I love dogs. I was actually almost going to wear a t-shirt that said I love dogs today. Oh, cute. I swear that's your first question.

But I didn't. Well, it's in the book. Do you love dogs? And I just wanted to know how much do you love them? Like, I like a remarkable amount. Do you want to hold a puppy? What, right now? Yeah. Yeah. Okay, can we bring a puppy for Jordan? He's going to piss on me by the way Maybe, but who cares? Do you love it? Oh my God

Isn't it cute? Is this real? Yeah, do you want to hold another one? Is this real? Can we get another puppy? My puppy? No, don't go because you're too little. Oh, look, there's a couple more.

Sorry, what's happening? Have you rented these puppies? No, but you love puppies. Oh my... Well, I actually never saw my dog's puppies because I rescued both of them so this all happened in... Can we get some more?

No, you're taking... No, no, no, no, you're taking the Mick now. What's happening? Who have you stolen these... You've actually... You've actually made my... It's been a stressful week, and this is actually... This is Sarah who owns the puppy.

Oh, Sarah, thank you so much. This one's on a mad one. You can hold them and then, like... We can just do the podcast. Okay. Hey. Is this beautiful? Is this therapy?

Hey, do you want to say something? Hey boss, oh hello, hello. Do you see that this This is, this is this is heaven? This is the best podcast I've ever been on my life. I'm so glad it is because I just thought, I just thought, because there's dogs in the title.

You are gorgeous, you. My heart, man. I'm obsessed. Sorry, that's. You said you might not cry, but I'm not sure. No, this is like these, no, but honestly, it's been a week and this is, this is. Why has it been a week?

It has just been, not just like life stuff, But this is like, I feel like the universe is constantly in the state of flux. So I've been on a wave. So I'm just, I feel like I'm being just humbled slightly by life. But whilst other great things are going on. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But it's good. It's good.

And this, but this one, oh. But life, these dots. Oh no, this one, pee. Never work with children or animals. So this is more calm. We're back. We've edited it. So it looks like the seven of riddiv.

juice to two because one did a poo as you've all seen and I've wiped if there are marks on my shit sorry to biont say if he shows up tonight smelling shit maybe I'll keep people away it's not a bad vibe get my own little circle why are dogs needed this week Jordan dogs are I mean listen let me just I there's something about dogs that I've learned a lot from having to rescue dogs and that's why they're included in the title when I rescue my first dog Spike, he just, the intention was for me to rebuild my understanding of love as a simple exchange. And I think that's what a lot of people are drawn to with dogs, especially with men who might find it more difficult to understand that exchange for whatever reason.

Like the simplicity of it. Yeah, you know, like, you know, I wake up, I feed the dog, I love the dog. Care and nurture for something. Yeah, the dog will be happy. I'm there. And that's, I think, with humans, especially as we get older, you know, You know, things become more complex. We often hold grudges. We struggle to forgive.

With dogs within reason, you know, they're kind of like, they might get a little yell, poor, moan. And then they're just happy that you're there. It's such a sweet exchange. And so it meant a lot to me, and it helped me, again, rebuild my sense of love, rescuing my first dog. And then when I met Jade, about a year and a half in, we rescued another dog called Mimi.

And she's like the opposite of Spike. It's like super chill, super calm. It's quite bizarre. And then Mimi's like really, really... She's a PA. She's highly strong. She's like, yeah, yeah. She's like, right, right.

She's like barks. Yeah, yeah. She barks a lot and she guards. But then once she's, you're in with her, she doesn't trust people straight away. All right, Bubba. She doesn't trust people straight away. But once she does, she gives so much love.

She's full of love. Yeah. And she also gave me that as a little, you know, reminder that I think maybe perhaps her, weariness of people isn't again the most naive approach you know I'm very much hey what's going on how are you I'm very trusting very quickly yeah yeah are you gullible or not uh I would like to believe I'm quite a good reader of energy but I definitely I definitely I naturally appeal to people's like potential for good I'm never like I don't want to question whether or not somebody can be kind and lovely I think everybody can

but some people I find it easier to engage with them than others but my point is I'll go up to somebody with the belief that it's who on this book sorry so talk to me about mad like what were you going to say about a time that you've been mad or that what you think's mad apart from the fact that we just introduce you to seven puppies yeah that was mad When everything first kicked off with Rizzle Kicks and I started doing drugs, I was so unsure of who I was that I remember consciously deciding at one point that I would act as weird as possible

so that I'd have it as a safety net. What, you'd acted weird sober or on? No, I would act generally. I would just say and do bizarre shit. Why is it safer? Because then people would go, oh don't worry he's nuts like a sort of

a refuge yeah I would actually I actually created it as a foot I remember thinking was your way of dealing with you mean like public scrutiny the glare of the camera and attention and all that

yeah if I you know yeah and responsibility and just like and holding myself yeah you absolve yourself responsibility yeah it's just a bit mad yeah Jordan yeah it's a bit nuts

that's interesting that's a refuge in itself Yeah, yeah Do you know what's a really weird thing In our industry as well It's like I've been called mad on my life But I've never done a drug ever In my whole life

Great, you're just high off life I don't know if I'm high But I just want to know like Can I run through a list of drugs And you tell me what each one's like In like a couple of words Because now you're completely in recovery Aren't you?

Yeah Okay, well let's start with mushrooms Yes Just a quick description of the feeling Below two grams, childish and joyous. Yeah. Above, it's called a hero's dose. I actually haven't gone near that for you.

But be safe. Set and setting, that's the rule. Cocaine? Overpriced, underwhelming. MDMA. A. With water, great dancing. So what else?

Have you tried to crack? I tried meth ones by accident. Yeah. Mets? I thought it was ADHD medication. I thought it was. I thought it was Adderall. Yeah.

It's a tricky. Was it nice? Was it Norwich? Nice. It was Moorish. That's how I found out it was meth. Do you like, I want more of that. Yeah, yeah.

I was like, why the fuck am I feeling itchy? And I want this shit some more. But why I'm an idiot is I actually didn't realize the street names for it anyway. So the actual tablets had ice written on them. And then when I typed ice into Google, it went, crystal meth. Other street name is, I was like, fuck, do you never do this for like two weeks? Heroin? No, no, no, not heroin.

Not too. But it gets complex. I think we could have a potentially really healthy relationship with plant-based medicines. Yeah, so like, mushroom. Yeah, I think a lot of the trials they're doing on mushrooms and as antidepressants, anti-anxiety. No, this is my opinion.

This is my view, right? And I'm, and I'm going to fucking stand by this. Yeah, you stand by it. Okay. In the early 90s, yeah. Yeah. I've been assured because I've asked people about this and my dad's confirmed it and I don't know what had happened in the 80s but there was this new yeah the 90s was this new kind of

approach there was kind of uh more support for like working class I think I mean and regardless there was influx of ecstasy and people were raving I was there because I was raving underage from 13 boom and because I didn't do drugs because there's a lot of addiction in my family which is why I don't so I'm not coming at it from a superior perspective I'm coming at it from the perspective of I know it's quite often hereditary. It is, yeah. And I know that I am compulsive, impulsive, and amorish type person, a bit obsessive, probably because of the ADHD.

So I was like, steer clear of that. But I was like going to underage raves from really young, 13, 14, and just handing out glasses of water to everyone. So I remember the ecstasy thing because I was like, someone gave me a leaflet at school, just had this girl. No, but in that early 90s, like I hear about that era, and people were raven and I read,

I was looking something up about football and I basically read that apparently in the early 90s there was a massive reduction in football hooliganism because the drug of choice was ecstasy.

I love to. So people were going to football matches and they weren't wanting to get pissed and punch each other. They were like, win or loss, I'm raven. Yeah, I'm going out of raven.

Optimism. And so I'd ask a lot about was it really like that in that time was there? And most, and I can't account for everybody but feedback I got on my blog and other,

you know, and other conversations. It's that, yeah, around that time, there was at the very least this experience of escapism genuinely authentic on the weekends. And I would argue that that is way more beneficial to society than whatever binge booze culture we have now, especially in Britain.

It's a real issue. There's nearly no redeeming qualities of alcohol. But when drinking and cocaine are really violent situations. Listen, they did a test on the Coke in London. Last, I mean, this might be five, six years ago. And they said the purest they could find was 22%. So people aren't even, I don't even know what the fuck's in the rest of them. People are snorting Lenore, bro.

Yes. They're going to the race. They're not good, but they're acting strange. They're acting very strong. Why does this person keep slapping pillows? So on to sadness. What is rapid sadness mechanism? One of the first obstacles in my therapy was,

was realizing that I have a very rapid sadness suppression mechanism. So it would, you know, I would find ways to push down how I'm feeling and deflect from it. Humour as well. You know, there's that famous meme online which is, did you have a good childhood or are you funny? Something like that. Yeah. And so I, yeah, I had to work through it. I had to stop it.

You know, I often yawn when I think of really sad things and that is another form of suppression of the feeling. And then ultimately I ended up in a space where I was being totally motivated or I was running off of the avoidance of feeling. You know, so I was living a life in a way that could help me not feel just sad that my grands had died, sad that I, you know, wasn't able to be mature enough to be in a relationship or ask for what I wanted in a relationship. You know, there's loads of different grief. pertaining to fame, obviously it's a difficult one to say publicly, but the loss of anonymity is it is also a grief. Yeah, that's like a bizarre thing to go through It's just suddenly not be

It's a weird one, isn't it? Because it's this like self-awareness of the fact that if you say that out loud You're like not grateful or whatever And people watch it and go, well, you know, you're ungrateful because I don't give to do that. Back to your heartbreak bit of your book.

Yeah. So do you think that heartbreak has been the source of the most saddest you've ever? been? Yes. But what was most, what's been most difficult to, I guess, contextualised, but it's the reason I wrote the book because it's morally ambiguous and that's interesting to me was that, yeah, in my case, I had, you know, betrayed someone I said I, you know, was in a relationship with, but I was honest about it. And then they left me, which I think it's good. you know, that were definitely good because it propelled me into confronting my own bullshit.

And I was devastated. I'd hurt someone. I saw it in real time, you know. But the other mad factor about it was I had an abandonment wound anyway from when I was a kid. A lot of kids do. Yeah. And so in being left in adult times, in that time, that makes sense. People hear it, yeah, yeah, you cheated the person that was cool.

But the little boy in me, it doesn't, it can't, you can't wrap. rationalised that. So it was just like somebody I'd exchanged a loving, I had a loving exchange with has disappeared because I said something. So I said something and they've gone from my life and said, you know. You said and done something. Yeah, yeah, yeah, of course. But I mean, as in what all I was processing was, I said something that was, it was true that because I, you know, in error. And then somebody had disappeared. So that was all it was. And it sounds ridiculous. I know this is what I mean or why it's interesting to write about because it's I was then left with this I was torn apart by it because it opened up this other thing I hadn't worked on which was

I don't I hate people leaving my life in spite of my actions and also I hadn't dealt with I was devastated that both my grands had died years before there was another really sad death in my life that I'd again had to kind of push to the side because of my responsibilities with fucking you know being a pop star whatever. And so I, it all hit me at once. I cried about my grand dying literally the day after, the day after my ex left me, I was, I was crying about my grand because I was suddenly like, what the fuck? Yeah, all the loss. And, and then yeah, then what do you say? When you say someone like, why are you in triple therapy? Oh, because I cheated on someone and I'm devastated. Like it does no, there's no, like this, and this is me being devil's advocate, is there

the argument to say that sometimes being honest about your failings is more about you than it is about the other person and would it have been kinder not to tell her? Well, this is the big question, yeah. This is, you know, I think the middle ground in that situation is just leaving a person and not necessarily give me. But then what if they don't understand why? Well, yeah, but I don't understand the other option. Like in my...

I don't know what the options are either. So I think, I think from my perspective, in my life, I value honesty above anything. That is my number one. Same. That's my number one value. So if somebody is even in the wake of doing something fucked, like, like, you know, betrayal, I don't know, maybe theft. I don't know what kind of situations where you know there's going to be a break. I would, I personally, just me, I would always have an element of respect there.

I would prefer to know as well. Like for me, as a receiver, if I was in a relationship, I would. with somebody who cheat on me, I would rather they told me. Well, a lot of people say that. And then, you know, Esther Perel says this relationship's like, I love her. Yeah. But she says that, you know, people say they want to hear the truth, but then in reality.

And look, I, and there was definitely that people believe that is selfish. It hurts the person. Have you thought about what drove you to do that, though, like to actually cheat? Because either A, did you actually subconsciously not want to admit yourself that you didn't want to be in that relationship anymore. Or B, was it because you were looking for validation because you were quite insecure? Well, that's, that was, that was just a theme anyway. But no, I was angry.

A lot of my issues with self-destruction was, was birthed from my inability to express anger. And not anger in a sense of like, raise, like, rah, just the sense of boundaries. I didn't have any idea of how to be quite open of, I don't want this or I don't want to do this and when I trace back all of my moments of all of my spirals where I've done a bunch of drugs and basically fucked up every intimate relationship I've been in there's always been a trigger point that's that's you know finding out that someone's you know I can't think you know like they're being a loss in my family or pressure from a record label or or somebody has told me something about their life that will check you know just like pivotal moments where I could just well I'm within my rights

to be like, no, I don't want to do that or this made me feel this way. I've taken out on myself. I've gone, okay, and then I just hurt myself. So all it was was... Did you still do that? No, not anymore, no. No, I really believe in being clear about how I feel. Yeah, that's one of the big...

In my relationship... Yeah, I know exactly what I want from love now, so I'm very clear with Jade about those things. What do you want from love? I realised that I respond quite badly to, you know, just even minor withdrawals of affection. As human beings, we're bound to do it when we're frustrated, you know, like say you get into a little dispute, you might hang up the phone without saying love you

or you might, I need to be in my relationship, I need to know that we're on the same team, like the whole time. So even if there's a disagreement, we still are responsible for creating the bubble outside it. So there's still a love you, there's still an understanding that this is within the safety of a relationship. Because if I don't have that, then I'm left with the... Your own thoughts, wild. And I know I'll start plotting an escape. I'll start thinking of reasons why it's not working.

You know, my natural inclination is to run away and hide and unisolate, like in terms of intimate relationship. So I've had to push against that. But yeah, that was certainly the reason why I was self-destructive. And just to finish on up, to be clear about it, I thought that truth was important in that moment because I was tired of my relationships going wrong at the expense of my actions. And so I wanted to face them. I wanted to face.

And look, some people might say that's unfair because somebody, but in my head I'm like, this person needs to know who I really am. That's who I really am. I fucked up. That's the truth of it. I could have delivered it better for sure because I wasn't, I didn't pair myself. Do you think you just didn't want to be in the relationship and you didn't, you're too cowardly to get out of it?

Oh, it wasn't even cowardly. I wasn't even aware that I didn't want to be in it. But in hindsight, you didn't. Yeah, of course. In hindsight, we didn't work at all. Not at all. It's mad that we were really. together.

Genuinely. When we look at our respective partners now, whatever, it's just like, oh, right, yeah. This is better. Yeah, like literally the opposites of each other, both, you know. Yeah. It was just like an unfortunate. And look, I definitely wish,

Paloma, believe me, I wish that I grew up, was thrown into this fucking wild whirlwind of notoriety in my early 20s. I wish I had the people around me to go, Jordan, you know what you need right now? Immediate therapy, emotional stability, understanding, and the ability to communicate

and commit in a grounded relationship. Like, I would love that. I'd love to have not pissed people off all through my journeys. It doesn't feel great to hurt people. It feels pretty sheer. It's sheer. So it's kind of something we should avoid. Even if it's for selfish reasons.

My personal belief is it's impossible to hurt another person without harming the self. A hundred percent. I wouldn't want people to think that people cheat because they love themselves too much. No, no. Because I think people think that. You don't think about the people. People look insecure and want validation externally. There's loads of reasons.

But having like a binding kind of, you know, like emotional or spiritual contract with a person and there's been clear that way and you break that, that comes at the cost of the person. Whether or not they show it or not. And that makes me feel sad because I know a lot of people. I know people who are so uncomfortable with being loved, yeah. That's just even an idea of somebody loving them for a long time.

It makes them so uncomfortable with the fear that they could hurt them. that they will go and hurt them first, you know. It's birthed out of a fit. Yeah, it's birth out of a fear. And then they just return to the place they're always supposed to be. If they go like, you're a piece of shit, or you're cheated on me, you're selfish, fuck you. And I'm leaving you.

And then they're like, oh, yeah, this is, I know this place. This is, this is where I've lived all my life. This is familiar. Yes, just, you know, isolation and disconnection. That's where I've been. The familiar is easier than the new sometimes. Yeah, that was self-sabotized. We literally create the scenarios we're used to.

That's our ego. in full effect. It's like, oh, wow, this person seems to feel as though they can, you know, help me balance myself for the rest of my life. I know what I'll do. I'll take loads of drugs and break the heart. That'll be great. And then I can go back to the other place.

Oh, yeah, when I'm scared of things. Yeah, I know how to do here. Yeah, I know how to do that. It's easy. That's why I would suggest to people, you know who said something amazing about love? And this stayed with me, this was my game changer. I'm sure Joni Mitchell wrote an essay once about love. And in that, or maybe she responded.

interview and she basically said that having these perpetual fleeting relationships made her feel as if she was just continuously meeting like a curated version of herself again and again it was only in a long-standing commitment that she was pushed into reviewing who she really was. Yes and that when I read that paloma that stayed with me because I was like if I really do want to work on myself and meet myself I feel like I almost have to be in a long-standing commitment relationship because that's truly difficult. That's actually hard. That's the irony.

That is, you know, we pride ourselves on this world of going through difficult challenges. That's arguably the hardest challenge there is. Waking up next to a mirror every morning for 25, 30, 40 years. Terrify. What about being caught? Have you ever been caught? Not necessarily for cheating, but just anything. Like the feeling of being caught.

Caught for something. that you... Like caught out? Yeah, or like, it could be in childhood. I remember it a lot in childhood feeling. Like, do you have any times when that's happened? There was like a memory of, I got like a core memory of taking some money from my godfather when I was a kid.

Because I didn't really, I didn't actually understand what stealing was. I just knew that we didn't have any money. My mom would constantly be like looking for money. So then I saw... In between the sofa? Yeah, yeah. All the pockets of the jackets. Yeah, all of that.

So I saw some money on the table and I just like put it in my pocket. And then I showed my mum and then she obviously made me go back and give it back to him. But that I remember that first shock of the fact that I didn't it wasn't okay. I had no idea. Just realizing for the first time. Yeah, I had absolutely no idea that my, just based on my mum's face. Like what, what do you mean? Like, you know, then you have to take that back.

I was okay, I will, I will. And I remember walking up these stairs and they just seemed like the biggest stairs. I mean back up to my Godfather's flat obviously he wasn't annoyed yeah how old were you? I mean literally like six you know seven something like that but I remember that I've always been obsessed

with being caught like you want to get caught no I hate the feeling of being caught and so somebody said to me the best thing about being honest is that you don't have to remember any lies yes like so that's what I'm saying about it though

that's what that's almost like a No, but we're on the same page. Honestly, sets you free. If you live in your truth, there's nothing to hide from. Well, you're completely relaxed all the time because you're completely, you know, if you're a liar, then you're constantly worried about getting caught. Doesn't it like, it actually blows my mind that people can just lie. Like, I understand, listen, I'm not, it's not like I haven't exclusively told truth

for my life. Like I understand a mission, for sure. You know, or like you say, like, maybe there's a way of wording things where, but I've met people in life that all literally. look me dead in the fucking eyes and tell me something that didn't happen. Compulsive liars, however. That freaks me out. As a neurodivergent person, we're all obsessed about justice.

The injustice kills me. So just that the injustice of a lie and you're standing there and you're like, you're going to bear face lie. Bare face lie. I don't know you could do it. Because I had to deal with that abandonment movement that happened in my heartbreak where like I've said a truth and someone's disappeared. I did have to work on repairing that because when I went back into a relationship,

I then started lying. Because I think because, again, omitting more than lying but like because I was so terrified of being abandoned. Yeah, I've got past that now. I'm saying that that's the consequence too of, you know, the complexity

of having to live in your truth. Yeah, like you have to live in the consequences of your truth as well which is you know, a lot of people don't say shit because it's hard. It's hard to suffer on account of your truth. It's like. Hard to admit who you actually are as well.

Massively. Massively. You're like, I'm really sorry, but I'm actually not as great as my Instagram account suggests. And we get punished a lot in our society. But that's what this podcast is about. It was about admitting and feeling relieved about the fact that we're all completely fallible and that we've all made mistakes and we've all done crazy things. We've all done bad things.

But that drove me, that did drive me, you know, I know we're talking about sad, but that did drive me to, oh actually, are we on bad now? We're talking about it. We're doing it, all of them. We're helping around, aren't me, Jemima? One bit I was particularly ashamed of, which I'd seen, I've seen,

repeated in some films and stuff, is that there was one point where I was so desperate in my heartbreak, I was so desperate for my ex to speak to me, which she shouldn't need to have done, you know, that I, like, really considered hurting myself. like almost for attention.

To get attention. And I remember there's like a Lauren Hill lyric, is it? Like, and when I tried to walk away, you hurt yourself to make me stay, this is crazy. Yes. Yeah. And I, you know, obviously that album is just like my favorite, one of my favorite albums ever.

And I remember hearing that song, I'm like, this is crazy. And I remember thinking about that lyric a lot, but I never thought I would embody it, you know. And there was a point, I never did. But there was a point where I was almost on the point of rationale. Like, if I just, walk out in front of this car, make sure I don't die,

then it will be so tragic that I'm, like, in hospital. She'll have to cut. Yeah. Yeah, but I don't find that. It's fucked, isn't it? How fucked up is that? You know how many mothers? Like, all the mothers I know feel like that.

What do you mean? Like, most moms are struggling under their social expectation, all the, like, expectations of ourselves to beat so many things. Yeah. But sometimes a lot of moms have that fantasy of, like, I just want to go to hospital, not with anything terrible, but for like three or four days so that everyone can understand how much I have to do on a day-to-day basis and do it for me for like three or four days and then maybe acknowledge what I'm doing.

That's really quite a common one. It's a tension I couldn't give myself. Yeah, and fantasising about a tragedy so that you can get the love and attention. that you really would like for yourself, either externally or internally. Yeah, I can really, I can really imagine that. That's like that is, uh, are these parents with, is it moms without, without support? No, we're all just in a school playground just like sitting there and they're like, sometimes I just wish I could go in hospital for three or four days.

But what was? Because then no one would be angry with me and say like, I'm a bad mum for wanting a break, but and I'd have like no judgment for the, break but I'd have a break and then everyone would be really grateful for what I do as well I'm fucking wild I kind of get it yeah I don't want Jay to ever feel like that I would want hope I could pick up enough slack well you sound like you're doing a lot of work on yourself so you're very you're a rare and healthy well no I haven't started doing the fatherhood thing yet man I'm not I'm not under the full well I think you'd be brilliant at it well I'm very confident

I say this again and again because I get asked a lot about fatherhood nowadays even though I'm not one just because of the general conversation I know it's going to fucking rattle me mate it's going to rattle me but it is because what do you think this is a good question

what do you think about it is about fathers that are really important it's the counterbalance everything in like this is what so this is what I believe and this is why I said before even though I'm open minded

about like leaving relationships partnership I'm not I'm so set on it as a concept because it's two, it's balanced, it's yin yang, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, uh, good bad, some people will say, you know, but it's, it's not that there's a good cop, but you get what I mean is, that rule for all of our theories and whatever, for every force being, having an opposite, that seems to, that's set in stone. I think like, men are incredibly capable of, of providing

nurturing and balance and stability and I see it. Honestly, I'm an optimist with this stuff. I know on the internet is rife with people fighting each other, but in my frame of reference, yeah, man, I'm seeing loads of men try and break generational patterns, trying to step up for their kid. Do the work. Yeah, man, like they want to be that they want,

they don't want a situation where their partner is, wants to get hit by a car. Yeah. Liked for a rest. Yeah. Yeah, because, you know, they might be the product of that and they understand what they wished was there. Would you make me feel hopeful about the future of the genders?

I feel like you seem, you're very, you're, to me, you're very masculine, but in a positive way, it's not toxic? Listen, I have as much propensity for fucking up as anybody. You know what I mean? Like, my book is me really making it. clear, yeah, I'm not a good person. I don't believe in the concept of a good person. I think a lot of the issue with gender debates at the moment is this puritanical approach to life, as if people aren't able to fuck up and then learn from those errors. People can fuck up loads and loads and

loads to the point where, yeah, let's maybe not engage with them. But more, I think people don't give other people enough credit, human beings enough credit. And then when we are generalising and making assertions on huge swathes of people because they're wanting to just let out a bit of anger or escape, go, agree. Yeah, I get it, but I want a world where we are, our communities are built around what we have in common, you know, and we can fight on the things that we, that will benefit us all. Like, even though man and woman as a split, that's crazy. That's like the world in half, in half. You're telling me that there aren't four, five, six, seven other attributes of a human being that you can connect with.

We're all on a spectrum anyway. Do you know what I'm saying? Everything's very fluid. Like you said, there's no real such thing as a good person because we're all capable of bad things. Everything's so nuanced, isn't it? It is. And that's what I mean. Everyone's capable of being a dickhead, literally.

You know what I mean? And we've all been. And within reason, people should have a margin of error for that, you know? And I think it worries me that people can feel as though, you know, just how they're identified in our social world can alleviate them of responsibility of things. But the reality of it for me with men specifically, like if I am to generalize for this point, is there is conditioning that happens based off of gender. And there are ways of being that like this capitalist patriarchy we're in encourages. and the reason why I want to speak out about it and I'm optimistic about the men around me

is because I certainly think more and more men are realizing how damaging that conditioning is for them and I know that because the second I start speaking out about this stuff. Everyone's coming out. I get the men talk to me, yeah, yeah. Women will support it because, like you say, I just appear as somebody who's maybe less threatening

than some other not bad on a podcast who's like, do you know why you can't get a date? It's because you haven't got enough houses. It's like, you know, but and I'll be like, well, no, it's probably because, you know, you haven't learned how to emotionally regulate and you should just start a hobby. And then you've already, you've already, you've already got a shared value with someone and that's half the work done, you know. But I know that men are dying for a space to, to relieve themselves. Like, I know that women face a lot of bullshit, especially in America right now, it's insane.

But it's, it's the, the heaviness. of this responsibility to be the man. The weight of that, it fucks people forever. There's so many lonely men in their 60s, who haven't spent a whole life, they've not even been able to get themselves a friendship circle that will be there.

The world hasn't been created to make these lives better, only for a tiny, tiny few at the very, very top. Everyone else is just battered by it, man. Honestly, like, and I really truly believe that misogyny is damaging for men. Maybe that's just an accepted idea, but I see so many issues in my male community that pertains to a fear of expressing femininity

or engaging with femininity, which then manifests as misogyny or this supposed hatred of women. But in my mind, that is just a hatred of self. Yeah. You can't, in my mind, you can't be able to. a man who hates women and not admit that that is you hating half of yourself. Like we are

genetically half women. Half of my being is my mum. The other half is my dad. I'm living as a man and, you know, and whatever condition it comes with that, but half of me. So you're telling me that these men aren't rejecting half of their selves and I'm wondering why that leads to coping mechanisms like addiction or isolation or, you know, that's the toxicity we're talking about. Total fear of what it feels like to be open. You know, that doesn't excuse men. of the reprehensible acts that happen as a result but I don't want anyone to ever get confused where it's come from that is that is that is a human being incapable of connecting to half of their being and that that sad it is brilliant well summarised could at the puppy's gone

I love another one actually you want to yeah another puppy please will will puppy please this is pop star of ordering puppies isn't this quite Mariah Carey. Oh look. Hello, mate. Thank you. This one's ridiculous. Can you believe there's something in their head?

Look at its face. Okay, so for anybody who's listening, I've really apologised. You must go on YouTube and see the visual because we've bought some puppies back in light of the next section, which is glad, because we're just kind of, it's hard not to be just really glad about the existence of puppies. And Jordan's face, as a puppy has just literally fallen asleep on him in the sweetest way, he's crumbling. He's a shadow of his former self. Look, what are you glad about Jordan, apart from that puppy?

I know. I really am glad about the world. I am glad about, not the state of the world we're trying to create, but I really am at that point. Yeah, man, I'm at that point below my life. where I am walking through forest land and woodland and being like, this is so sick. Just nature. Just trees. Like what?

How old are you? 33. I feel like that's quite lovely that has come early because my mum reckons that that happens in your 40s. When you start walking with your hands behind you back. Or just like enjoying nature and like being able to exist in a moment and not having phomo and not minding. Not one for more is the dream. That's freedom.

Yeah. That's freedom. No. But this is just, you know, listen, I went on, I went to Kenya and started the year. I've seen some leopards and shit. I just, I just feel mesmerized by it. And I feel mesmerized by the reality that, like, being engaged with nature can bring us a sense of peace. You know, I'm pretty sure that if you look at a tree, it like calms your nervous system, you know.

Do you ever get wound up and then look to nature and go, right, Jade, get in a car, we're going to apping forest. Every day. Just touch a tree? Yeah. No, if I'm, if I'm, that's my first protocol. If I'm rattled by something, I'm out with a dog. I'm in the woods, yeah. Thank you.

They, um. For this moment. Oh, he's pissed on it. Sorry. Oh, shit. That's piss, yeah. Sorry, guys. But thank you for coming.

And I hope you enjoyed this gorgeous puppies. I am, I, uh, this is everything I expected and more. I want to, I want to ask you loads of questions. But I guess maybe I'll, you're on your podcast. Yeah? Promise? Yeah. All right, cool.

100%. Thank you so much. It's been a real pleasure and thank you to these gorgeous puppies. Cheers, guys. Come here. And shitting and pissing on my stuff. We.

Mad, bad, sad. Mad, bad, sad, glad. Dog dad. Thank you so much for coming, Jordan. I appreciate it, yeah. Bye. Bye. Jordan.

What? Give the dog back. There's no dog. Jordan. Give the dog back. We've loved you too, but thank you. You can't take the dog. Well, wasn't that great?

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