Mad, Sad and Bad with Paloma Faith - Katherine Ryan: Why I Wasn’t Sorry For Cheating On My Ex

Episode Date: March 31, 2025

TW: This episode contains discussion of pregnancy loss.Not only is Katherine Ryan an esteemed comedian, actress, writer, podcaster, and one of the most glamorous women on television, she’s a fiercely outspoken powerhouse of a woman.In this conversation we discuss motherhood, raising girls to have high standards, and how there’s no such thing as being too confident. Katherine also opens up about her experience of miscarriage, the nonlinear nature of pregnancy, and how she processed the grief of her pregnancy losses.Katherine also shares some wild stories from her past relationships and talks frankly about why she’s not sorry she cheated on her ex-partner.Katherine’s energy and zest for life is absolutely infectious – I absolutely loved having her round to chat!#KATHERINERYAN #PALOMAFAITH #MADSADBAD—Find us on: Instagram / TikTok / YouTube—Thanks to my mate Catherine for joining us!—Credits:Producer: Jemima RathboneAssistant Producer: Magda CassidyEdit Producer: Pippa BrownEditor: Shane O'ByrneVideo: Jake Ji & Grisha NikolskyVideo Editor: Josh BennettOriginal music: BUTCH PIXYSocial Media: Laura CoughlanMarketing: Eleanore BamberExec Producer: Jemima RathboneExec Producers for Idle Industries: Dave Granger & Will MacdonaldSenior Exec Producer: Holly Newson Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hello, I'm Paloma Faith and this is my show. Each week I welcome someone fantastic into my home to talk about what makes them mad, sad and bad. Roll recording. Hello Paloma, it's me. Thanks. They're so gorgeous and weighty. Come in. I like a couple of snooker balls in socks these days.

Not even wearing a bra. Motherhood will do that too. Oh, yes. You mind they're like a couple of empty coin purses. Oh. Have a see. Thank you. This is so gorgeous. Fierce.

She's one of the most successful stand-ups in Britain. An actress, writer and podcaster. She's a Duchess, a mum, and a national treasure. Sadly for us, that nation is Canada. Or perhaps to you, she's Pigeon from the Masked singer, whose iconic rendition of no scrubs kept us guessing her true identity. But to me, she's a woman who speaks my language. Honest, good and perfect in every way.

Like me, she literally has no flaws at all. I honestly think she shits love hearts, because I know I do. It's Catherine Ryan. We are flawless, palama. Perfect. And not afraid to say that you feel perfect. I do. I have really high.

self-esteem. I'm too confident, if anything. I hear all the time about people. There's such thing is too confident. If there is, it's me. I need to be taken down several notches. Well, let's see how we go. Okay. I really like what you were just saying about how I should raise my daughter. Can you say that again, like that we have to give them really high standards? Well, this could be a mistake. I just think it's a great theory that I never thought of. Okay. So what I... Because my thing's always like, you should get to know everyone and you've got to fit into. every situation and like make sure that your expectations are not too high. No, I don't raise humble children. So I know that being a Nepo baby can backfire. A lot of these children really struggle

to ascend to what their parents have achieved and that can be a terrible feeling. And I think a lot of celebrity kids are really messed up. However, I've decided to spoil my daughter as much as I can. I give her really extravagant valent valentines. I like fly her wherever she wants to go. I get her VIP P tickets to anything that I can because then I feel like she won't be impressed by someone's dusty sun down the line. She'll just be like, this is rubbish. Right. Because I used to be really impressed by like the offer of a ride home.

I'm still impressed by someone's dusty son. Me too. Tell me time you've been mad, Catherine. I feel very sane in all of my interactions. I don't get cross-bear-off. Because of course, from being perfect. But I reserve all of my madness for romantic relationships. And I've had some of the most mad romantic relationships.

How? I think a lot of us in this industry are neurodivergent. And I've not been diagnosed with anything, but my phone, who knows me very well... Keeps telling you your ADHD. All the time. Yeah. And I think my phone... That's what happened to me.

And then I saw an actual person to confirm it. Yeah. But let me tell you, I'm skeptical because one of the questions was... in the diagnosis was, do you find most people boring? I was like, yeah, they are. They are, though. And she went, oh. And so basically it means that if you find most people boring, you've got ADHD.

And it's a badge of honor. It is. I think it's wonderful. And I don't want to diminish anyone who struggles to like focus, whatever. Like, we don't need to in our industry. I struggle to focus. But that's fine because we do this. Yeah.

And so it's good. But you think it's affected your relationship choices. So I do think that what I was seeking when I was young in a small town from men was stimulation. So I found really crazy people to be super stimulating. I'd be like, well, he's got some fanciful stories of this and that. And I really got to keep an eye on him. And you never know what he's going to do. I found those relationships really interesting and stimulating. But I'd be dating an absolutely mad person. So one guy I dated. That sounds exciting. Yeah, it was.

I love it. Will he text me back? Won't he? Will he go out of the country? Will he set fire to the house? Does he have a wife? Yeah. This guy, this guy did set fire to his fraternity, allegedly. But this is the thing. So all the anecdotes that I have from this relationship, which lasted quite a long time, over the years have been unpacked as lies. So he told me, back in Canada, we have this philanthropist, this theatrical titan called Ed Mervish. and we have a big discount store called Honest Ed's, and we have the Mervish Theater.

Ironically honest. Yeah. Well, this, Honest Ed. I didn't date Honest Ed. Okay. Honest Ed Mervish is dead. And my partner at the time told me that Honest Ed had killed his dog. And I was like, wow, what are the chances?

Like Honest Ed Mervish, 89 years old, driving a Bentley down the streets of Toronto, killed your dog. And then apparently you just said, sorry, got back in the car and drove away. And I told this story. For years, I was like, isn't it crazy? Honest Dad Mervish killed my boyfriend's dog. And then years down the line, someone somewhere was like, he's a billionaire. Why would he be driving his own car at 89 years old? And like, don't you think your partner is such a liar that this might also have been a lie? I was like, oh yeah. But there were like a million like that.

That I just had to go back and reexamine our entire relationship and be like, that was a lie, and that was a lie. And this was a lie. Did he ever tell you really beautiful lies that you thought were amazing? Well, he would talk to me about his trials. Like, make your life better. Well, sometimes I would ring him, and I was only a little girl, I suppose, because remember we used to date older men back before we knew it was creepy. Yeah.

And I'd ring him up, and most boys my age would be, like, playing video games. But I'd be like, what are you doing? And he'd go, well, I'm just out on my terrace painting with a glass of red wine. And you were like, hot. Yeah, I was like, wow. Daddy? He's probably playing video games. Do you think you have daddy issues?

I wonder, my dad's pretty nice. I think my dad looks at some of my stand-up and goes, what's wrong? Did I molest her and forget? Like, why she's so weird? I think that daddy issues can also be if you've got an amazing father. He's not amazing, no. Okay, he's just nice. Just somewhere in the middle. Yeah, but that's... What was your dad like? Awful. Oh, no. Yeah, really bad. I'm sorry.

That's okay. I got used to it. Sometimes it can be very formative, though. It can make you, like, you probably suffer from hyper independence as a trauma response. Yeah. And you go, I don't need anything from anyone. I can do it myself. Yeah, that's true. I don't need you.

I don't trust you. And that's why I love the dusty sons. Because anybody who's not a dusty son might show me that he could do something better than me, which is terrifying to me and leaves me vulnerable. It does. But at least we can afford the therapy to let us know about that. Do you think being honest is a neurodivergent quality? It can be, certainly.

People always say to me, you're refreshingly honest. I think you're neurodivergent, like back to back. Isn't it weird to have the things, the qualities in ourselves that we value? I like that you tell the truth. I like that I tell the truth. I like that you find most people boring, so do I. And then there's someone somewhere I'll go, oh, your brain is not right. Yeah, it's not normal.

You should really be lying mostly and you should also be quite mediocre. I think we've just described just British people. lie all the time. This is my friend who's also called Catherine, but Catherine with a sea. Tell me about British people lying. Well, I just think there's a lot of sort of, is it cloak and mirrors, you call it?

Sort of a smoke and dagger. Well, the smokescreen of like, no, everything's fine. Everything's fine. Look at my nice house. Look at my gorgeous, expensive taps. Everything's fine. I'm doing well. Everything's...

And they like to keep that. So then that's their sort of entry point into the world. They're like, no, no, no. Make everything look like a... fine, even though actually everything's gone to shit. But do you think that's quite British? I think it is. Do you think with lies, do you think you were mad to believe them or he was mad to tell them?

He was super mad. Like, I think he's shouting at traffic cones now somewhere. Oh, really? Yeah, having an argument with a wall. I don't think he's very well. But I'm not qualified to clinically diagnose him. I just clinically diagnose everyone with ADHD who thought that anyone was boring. Yeah, well, you're right.

You probably don't know anyone who isn't ADHD. That's what she said. I don't know anybody who I get along with that's not neurodivergent. No, you wouldn't. Why would you? Yeah. There are wizards and there are muggles and you're a wizard. Thanks.

You're welcome. I once had a boyfriend who used to lie a lot and I thought he was amazing because I believed all the lies. Yeah. Like I thought he was so incredible because he sort of shadowed. You can get involved. Did you know him, Catherine? No. No.

She didn't know me then. But he used to write his CV out and it was full of amazing things. And they were all wrong. They weren't real. Of course. And I was like, wow, he's worked for all these magazines. Was it the same guy? I think it's the same guy.

Who knows? He actually lived in London, though. So he would lie about everything. This guy would put on an accent and be his own agent. Do you think you'd rather be in a relationship than not be in a relationship? Unfortunately, yes, but I don't think that's an aspirational quality about me. I admire women who are smart enough and centered enough to go it alone because I've been a single mom and now I've been married for five years and I love my husband, but I really like the independence of being a

single mom as well. I think it's quite nice being a single mom and then having a boyfriend that visits sometimes. Yeah. On the side. Not even on the side, just like come in. And then you've your independence and the crutch of a relationship. It's difficult for me that because I fall in love. Me too. I always look back on my life and wish that a lot of the relationships I had were just people I'd slept with. Yeah.

Because I always attach really quickly. Yeah, yeah. I'm like, I really fancy this person. So now I'm going to spend three years of my life with them. That's it. Rather than be like, let's just have sex. You've had flings that you wish could be flings. Yes.

Yeah. And I think I've wasted a lot of things. time in my life, believing lies, believing that someone, actually it's not always their lies though for me. Quite often it's like the construct that I've created. So it's my lies to myself about a person. And then I will just take ages to work out one day when I wake up and look at it and I'm like, oh, this person's not the person that I imagine them to be. Because you're creative, you probably date for potential, which one should never do. You go, oh, imagine what I could do with this. Or if I just help, then he could be, he could be, he went, he'll always, yeah, but he'll always be

in your current marriage, it's different though, right? Yeah, I'm in a good marriage. I don't know how I landed on that. I say current because I think only a divorcee would understand why we say that. I always call him my current husband, yeah. It's great. And I tell people, I'm in my fifth and final year of marriage. My husband goes, are you? Yeah, maybe. But I don't trust him. I love my husband, but I don't trust my husband. And he knows that. What do you think that are the possibilities of things he might do to you? He could do anything. Has he ever betrayed you? When we were younger, he did. So he was my high school boyfriend. Yeah. And he split up with me at the prom. And I didn't even think someone could break your heart whilst you were wearing a tiara, but he did it to the song Lady

in red. And what an asshole. He kissed other girls. He was a child. You know, he was like 17. It's fine. It's still. It's forever. But I do believe. Yeah, I haven't let him forget. Unforgiven. But I do think every man is one stupid mistake away from exploding his whole life. Don't you think that every woman is also one's stupid mistake? I think we cheat, but we meant to do it. Like we'll have premeditated affairs. We've already been in love with him for 18 months. I think a respectable husband and father can leave the house one day. with good intentions.

A brand new person. They didn't know existed. Slip into a sex worker. You know, like, I just don't trust them, any of them. I think 20 years from now, having a dick will qualify you for disability insurance. Okay, moving on to sad. Yeah. Tell me a time you've been sad.

I'm very, thankfully, not often sad. I do really well. But my Achilles heel is miscarriages, which feels like, oh yeah, of course, that's sad. sad. I think it's sad for everyone, but it's really sad for me. I just don't, some people have a really good attitude about it. I don't know if they're just spiritual. They go, well, that wasn't meant to be and they seem to move on. Maybe they don't really move on, but I get quite sidetracked. I hate it so much. And I feel like with pregnancy loss, it's a chemical labyrinth that you can't even get out of. You don't have a choice. Even if you can think your way out

of it and reason. I think whatever's going on with your chemicals. Did you want all the babies that you miscarried? Yes. Yeah. And you've ever had an abortion? No. I was never, I was never having like that much fun when I was younger. Yeah. I was never like making mistakes. I was a pretty good girl. But I love the availability of abortion. I'm like right. I'm bang on it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I feel like abortion, in many case this should be the default. I just, the reason why I ask that is because I just feel like as somebody who's had a miscarriage, and I've had an abortion when I was younger, I always feel like I'm not allowed to feel sad about a miscarriage. So I just think it's an interesting thing because you're like, well, you're not allowed to because you chose not to have that one.

Do you know what I mean? Oh, you feel you're not allowed to be sad about an abortion. Yeah. But I, and no, not allowed to be sad about either, really. But I think, you know, when you say people who don't get sad about miscarriages, I think sometimes it's because they may have had an abortion. Oh, really? Because they think, oh, I'm not entitled to feel sad. Oh, no. Because maybe it's my punishment or something that we've imagined.

You are right about that. Do you know what I mean? When you had a miscarriage then, did you feel like you were being punished for having had an abortion? A bit, yeah. The miscarriages you had was it. in trying for your, in your marriage with Bobby? Yeah. Yeah.

So you were trying for these babies that you've now got two of, right? Yeah. Yeah. We have to. And that's just part of being a mother, I think. So many people have many experiences with their journey is not linear to having kids. They'll have loads of different atopic pregnancies or this or that or failed IVF cycles or whatever you want to call it. So I know it's really normal.

Yeah. But it shouldn't be. accepted as just, oh, that's normal and then brushed aside. Like, it's good that you can feel sad, I think. In my pregnancy with Violet, I was so stupid and naive and happy and went to all the skins, like with a spring in my step. And then once I had experienced the sad skin, I never had experienced like that. Again, all my pregnancies were kind of not ruined, but there was a darkness about them. A worry. I've only had worrying ones because my mom had three miscarriages before me.

Oh, no. And I'm like the product of an experimental drug that's now widely used. What is it? It's called bromacryptine. But it's like, it's to control brain tumor in the pituitary gland, which is the hormone gland of a woman's brain. But she had the tumour. So she was told she couldn't have pregnancies.

Oh. And then it controlled it. And then I was born. Oh, how amazing. So, like, that's the NHS. I wouldn't exist without them. That's really cool. But do you think when you experienced your miscarriages, did your husband experience sadness in the same way as you?

No, not at all. He had like immediate, obvious grief and then he moved past it. But I think... Quickly. Yeah. I think that's just who he is. He's like, he's strong in that way, but he's also not afraid to just get sad immediately. And we've had three miscarriages now.

So he knows like, oh, God, here we go. So I apologize. as to everyone in the scan. And then I like go to work. And then I like very calmly. Oh, well. Never mind. And I scheduled a surgery on my phone. I'm like, great. Well, my only day to come in is tomorrow before my show and leads. Great. And then, uh, he just gets really worried because he goes, oh no, when is she going to find her breakdown? Yeah. And then, and it takes so long, like just to heal from it to get your cycle back. And then I'm just quite sad. And they've been cumulative. So the first one, I was really sad.

The second one, I was more sad. And then the third one, I was on tour. Yeah, and I was just devastating. I never got a chance to stop. I was on flights every day and in front of people every day and being a clown every day. And then I just wasn't sleeping well. And I'd like go home and just cry at night. And my husband was like, oh.

Did you mention to the audience or felt it wasn't appropriate? No, I think it bums them out now. I think that's the other thing. They're like, oh, another one. God. That's an interesting thing that happens, I think, in show business, like I've had some awful things happen, but you can't cancel a show. No.

And it feels like you could say what was going on, but then it just makes the whole evening awful for everyone. So I've had it where I walked on stage and said to like a whole packed room, I might be involuntarily crying for this whole show, but I've had something bad happen. and I just don't want to worry you with it. I want to do the show. Everyone would like cheer,

but then you're just like singing like your pop song, but like just crying at the same time. Yeah. It's a weird feeling. And you just can't believe at the end that you got through it. And then everyone's just like, oh, well done. But it's just a bizarre thing. You can't cancel.

No, you can't cancel. Because there's all those ticket buyers. And they have traveled. They've booked hotels. They have non-refundable thing. Yeah. Yeah. You can't cancel.

But then you do see pop stars crying during their shows. There are like appropriate maybe times that. I think the audience really loves that. Yeah, I don't know. I find it a bit cheesy and weird. So I try not to. But if you involuntarily, it's not much you can do about it. To try not to, I think is good.

Yeah. You go to work and you try not to cry. And that's all anyone can ask. But that's quite a, yeah, I think that's quite a feminine things have to do. Yeah. Although men would argue that they have to try not to cry a lot more, wouldn't they? Like with that sort of toxic masculinity. Do you think it takes you some time to realize that you feel sad?

Yes. Which is really... What kind of, what, roughly what amount of time do you think? I think one week. A week? That's pretty fast. I feel like mine's roughly four months. Four months.

Yeah. No, like I might have a little moment of like, crying, but it feels like an out-of-body experience before, like a bit like, oh, I think this is what I should be doing. And then the genuine realisations usually months later. Really? Yeah. And what kind of things would that be about, sadness about relationships? Yeah, or like just awful things that have happened, difficult things that I've, it's usually when I've got out the other side of something, which is why it takes four months. Because like, when everything's settled enough and put back together enough to be like, it's safe now to

experience your feeling, then it will come out. Well, do you know what delayed emotional processing is a symptom of ADHD? I thought you were going to say trauma. No, trauma. Obviously trauma. But yeah, it's another neurodiverse thing, I think. But also a coping mechanism of being a really successful front-facing woman and a mother and a public figure. I think it's really good. You posted something. I loved it actually, that your daughter, you were in the car, you were crying somewhere, and your daughter said, Mommy, are you crying? You said no. Yeah, and I felt bad about it. Yeah. And then later on, I think you were like, yeah, I was crying. You were right. And it was about this. Yeah. Yeah. I think it's really important to do that. Yeah, because I thought I've really failed her as a parent if I'm trying to

pretend that I'm not upset. We haven't failed her as a parent. You've just done the normal thing that you do, but you're undoing ancestral trauma when you do that. When you take the lineage of the matriarchy and your family a step forward and do something differently to your natural instinct. Your natural instinct was, just tell the child, I'm not crying. But then you changed it. And that will change how she interacts with people. And then you bring your ancestors forward in doing that too and you change the future. It's really cool.

So tell me, have you ever done anything bad? Or you consider to be bad? Well, define bad. Like, did I want to be bad? Do you ever feel bad about things you've done? Do you sort of sit and think, oh, I feel a bit bad about that? There have been things I've said in stand-up that I felt bad about. Because when I started stand-up in this country, people like to explain something compared to something.

So they'd say I was like Joan Rivers because I have a caustic sense of humor. I'd like to talk about celebrities. I'm glamorous. And then I leaned into that. I like roast comedy. I like that. So I'd go, yeah, I am like Joan Rivers, sure. And I would purposefully try to write slams about celebrities. But back then, I was just in the basement of Weatherspoons. Like, nobody really knew who I was. So I was always punching up. It was never going to hurt anyone's feelings. And I still feel bad to this day that I had some material

about Cheryl Cole or Cheryl, nay, Tweedy that resonated with people at a time that she sort of had some PR dissent. I don't know what happened, but she went from being like very beloved. The golden girl, too. People started. And I didn't time it like that, but it was good material. That's the thing. It was funny. I said she'd done more damage to the Northeast since Margaret Thatcher or something. And the whole bit hinged on how beautiful she was. Because I still think, even today, 10 years on, she's one of the most beautiful people I've ever seen in my life, like just dimples and just go gorgeous and talented. So I'd do this. I'm a gorgeous, gorgeous like a baby. And it was more about, it was more about women having to look childlike and to be small. And then if you achieve that,

you can get away with anything. So I said, like, she's a bad person. Like, she's garbage. She'd glass you in an alley. I just sort of exaggerated her being a very bad person, but getting away with it because she's so beautiful. That was like the crux of the bit. It was like 10 years ago. But for some reason, it got in the press that I'd said that. And then when you do, something silly like a stand-up bit, but it's in black and white for the first time, and it's in tabloids for the first time alongside photos of her. Then you really start to think, like, oh, hang on, I can hurt people's feelings. And they love hitting women against each other.

They were just like, two hot chicks. Let's just make this feud so we can all masturbate over it in our bedrooms tonight. Right. Because we'd love to see the mud wrestling. And I felt so badly. That's what I think. No, they love it, yeah. I think it's interesting to hear that you don't feel bad because I suspect you do quite often as a mother.

I think most, or do you just always think what you're doing is the greatest mothering ever? I think I'm a pretty great mother and I'm an excellent dad. What makes a great mother and dad? I just think parenting is my wheelhouse. I think I'm good at it. I think that I'm home as often as I can be home. Right now I'm on tour and I have a little bit of guilt about that. but I didn't tour last year.

You don't feel so bad. I don't feel so bad. It snows a bit. Yeah. I've created a society now where the children can just get on with each other. No one's lonely. Everybody kind of has enough sense of the world to know where I am and that I'm coming back. That's nice.

I just think I'm a really good mom. I'm honest with my kids. I look after my kids. I'm very, like I breastfeed them way too long. I don't have the same shame that I think is hoisted upon. a lot of women if they choose to be mothers. That's amazing. I'm pleased for you. You could be wrong.

You could be a lesson to us all. Yeah, but I think part of being a human being is that we all do bad things and we all, but we shouldn't dwell on it and it sounds like you don't dwell on it. Well, I saw a wonderful TikTok where this woman was saying, I'm in therapy because of my mother. And my mother was a baker and she stayed home with us, but she also had this really great career on the side. And she was always kind and just.

generous and put us first and she had a great marriage with my dad and she was perfect. Like she did the perfect lunches. My mom loved us. She did everything perfect and I'm in therapy for that. She's like, I will never be like my mom because my mom's so perfect. So she was like, just do what you want. Do whatever you want because your kids are going to be fucked up anyway. Yeah, they're going to blame you for it, whatever it is. Yeah. And I have two sisters. I now have three children. I'm different to my sisters. My children are all different to each other. I think it doesn't matter what do as a mom. That's why I don't feel bad. Like, they're just going to be who they are. If I'm not like explicitly neglectful, then yeah, fine. That's good. So you're quite badass rather than bad.

Yeah. Yeah. I'm just not bad. I just... What's the most badass thing you've ever done? Can you think of it? I cheated on one of my partners and that's bad. But I feel that he deserved it. And I'm always really glad that I did it. Was it your exit strategy? Yes. Yeah. I think sometimes women have an exit strategy and they're like, I've tried a lot of things here. I've experimented with the prospect of saving it. I've experimented with ways that I can get out without doing this. And now my last resort is that I need to do this because that's the most final exit strategy I can think of.

The thing is about it is like that we have a real, it's black and white thinking, isn't it? So you hear in the stories the way it's kind of poised to you as like so-and-so cheats on, whether it's tabloid or just friends or did you hear in the neighbourhood what she did. And men do it often and then it's like,

oh, awful for the woman, she's a victim of that. And then when a woman does it, she is literally the devil. Yeah. But it's like, you've tried a lot of stuff. Yeah.

And so, because you say, I had to do it. I had no choice, I feel. Because you were like, I've tried everything to get out of it. and he wasn't going. Well, the choice, I suppose, would have been, be more courageous and just go.

Say it's over. But in this relationship, we were done. I had asked him to leave. And especially as a single mother, people were like, oh, he left you. And I was like, no, no, I begged him to leave for a long time. And then finally, isn't it funny that a lot of men won't respect that choice like they will respect another man's property. So once another man comes into the picture,

then they go, oh. This tree has been pissed on by somebody else. Yeah. Just like dog. I just needed to get pissed on. And you loved it, that golden shower. It wasn't great. I mean, it felt awful at the time. I had so much guilt. And you never want to hurt someone else intentionally. But looking back at the big picture, as you say, nobody knows what's gone on for the 10 years or the five years or the two years or whatever it may be. I think you're pretty much more badass than you are bad by the sounds of it. I think so. Thanks.

You're pretty badass too. Thank you. I try. Just so it rhymes because I was like that and I wanted to end on a positive. I want to know what you're most glad about today in this moment. Today? Yeah, or just like in life or whatever. I think that the reason for my piece

is I fully understand that nothing matters very much and very little matters at all. I feel like I have a really good outlook on the world and how lucky I am and I lead with gratitude and I wake up like a dog every day. I'm just like, wow, it's all still here. What matters to you? Only the physical safety and health of my children. That's all. Like I see that so many people around the globe are like not saying. And we are the most privileged little family in the whole world. I know that every day. And I've lived long enough now to know people who've like had such tragedies that I just can't compare

anything bad in my day to that. And as long as my children have like immediate physical safety and health, I really don't think anything else matters at all. I really don't. And me, of course. You matter. Women our age start to drop dead, don't they? No. Yes, they do. You need to get an MRI every year and a blood test. I have my breast check. Okay. Because that's in my family. But do you get an MRI every year? I've started now. Someone in the family got some bad health news out of nowhere. They were like, oh my gosh, out of absolutely nowhere, he's riddled. And I was like, what?

And then now I get blood tests in an MRI every year because, well, health is wealth. And if I have any disposable income, it should go to that. Preventative assessment. Everyone who comes on this show says health for glad. It's true. Yeah, it's true. So stay healthy people. Well, people who know that. I think it's important to people have different practices of like meditation or whatever.

I don't know what people do. I don't explicitly meditate. But it's like if you just remember every day how lucky you are to be alive, it sounds cheesy. But like those little things won't upset you that much. Even when, you know, I get sad. My husband's like, but are the children that we do have safe and well? Are you healthy? I'm like, yes.

Fine. Good. Thanks for coming on. Thank you. So nice to speak to you. Thanks for chatting to me and Catherine and Catherine. It's such a pleasure to know you. And now, Catherine.

You too. Thank you so much, Catherine, for your wonderful company, sparkling conversation. I've had the best time. Is that your water bottle? No. Oh. I just go around the world like this. Oh, yeah.

You just never have a bag. Nope. The only mum without a bag. No children, no bag. That's why you're so effortlessly brilliant at parenting. I'm free. Bye. Bye.

Now I'm going to go and have to get Botox, aren't I? Catherine, I have never met somebody in my life until just now who doesn't feel bad about everything. Actually, let me rephrase that. A woman who doesn't feel bad about everything. Same. I met men who don't feel bad. Like, you're just like, well. Same.

But you feel worse than most people. People, don't you? Oh, I feel bad about absolutely everything. I couldn't have found a more contrasting person to that if I tried. I think even I feel quite bad about everything, but you're worse than me. Oh yeah, I mean, I feel bad. I mean, I feel bad about this already and hasn't even happened yet. What do you feel bad about this?

In case something's my fault? In case it's not as good as you wanted to be and it could be my fault. But sometimes I wake up in the morning, do you, and just feel like I've done something wrong, but I can't think what it might be. But I actually think it might be my physiology as well. Like, I think I've just got quite a worried body. So I can always find something to worry about or feel bad about. That's how you get slim.

Oh, yeah, I've been saying, I've been, I've been this the whole lot of my life. Forget as empty. Just worry yourself skinning. Eat what you want and worry yourself literally sick. Just worry yourself sick. Honestly, I can feel it now. The calories are literally falling off. falling off me, worrying about who might see this and what they might say and, you know.

Our Catherine was on her. Did you see what she said? And she's done her roots. That's what my mum would say. One, two, three, four. Well, wasn't that great? All of the links of everything we mentioned in the show can be found in the episode description. Oh, and while you're there, why not subscribe and follow the show too? See you all next time. Later, potatoes. Thank you.